Penalty Shoot Outs

[The Coon Dog]

Honestly, is there any more nerve racking, sitting on the edge of your seats moments in sport than watching a penalty shoot out?

If there is, then I'm sure my heart couldn't take it.

Firstly penalty shoot outs only apply in knock out/qualification tournaments, so for the victor it's absolute euphoria, whilst the vanquished go home shattered.

*The most obvious penalty shoot out of recent time just has to the World Cup Qualifier v Uruguay. I still get a tingle when I think of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3vAb4IAWes

*Liverpool v AC Milan in the European Champions League final in Istanbul a few years ago was probably remembered more for Liverpool overturning a 3-0 half time deficit than any heroics in the Penalty Shoot Out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oIPrGbsfvw

*Sunderland v Charlton in a promotion play off final at Wembley in 1998 was probably the most exciting game I have ever seen. 3-3 at full time. 4-4 after extra time. Clive Mendonca for Charlton scored a hatrick, which didn't go down well with his family who were all in attendance as he was from Sunderland.

The first 13 penalties were dispatched with consumate ease, until Michael Gray for Sunderland has his spot kick saved by Australian Sasha Ilic.

Unfortunately I can't find a clip.

*There are countless misses for England in World Cups. Some players who have missed that I can recall are Glenn Waddle, Jamie Carrragher & Stuart Pearce.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I think Roberto Baggio missed a penalty once but it was probably of no consequence.

[Chops]

Its a terrible way to end a football game. Take players off and play sudden death.

[The Coon Dog]

Its a terrible way to end a football game. Take players off and play sudden death.

One of the lower leagues adopted a different method, whereby the team that won the most corners during a game would be declared the winner in the event of a deadlock after extra time.

That was until one manager decided after winning a corner, his team was instructed to take a short corner, then bang it into the nearest defender for another corner. Repeat the process!!!

Trial abolished, revert to penalty shoot outs!

[Dog Pound]

That French bloke Trezeguet(sp?) missed in the shoot out of the world cup last year. Funny that everyone seems to think ZeeZuu being sent off turned the game. Bolloks the game was heading to a shoot out and Trezguet still would have had to take that fateful kick.

Also recall ZeeZuu taking a kick in one of the group stages. Arrogant bastard chipped it straight at the keeper and off the cross bar in for a goal. He was crazy to even attempt something like that. Imagine being the keeper and diving to a corner only to see the ball almost in slow motion just glide straight.

[Chops]

That French bloke Trezeguet(sp?) missed in the shoot out of the world cup last year. Funny that everyone seems to think ZeeZuu being sent off turned the game. Bolloks the game was heading to a shoot out and Trezguet still would have had to take that fateful kick.

Also recall ZeeZuu taking a kick in one of the group stages. Arrogant bastard chipped it straight at the keeper and off the cross bar in for a goal. He was crazy to even attempt something like that. Imagine being the keeper and diving to a corner only to see the ball almost in slow motion just glide straight.

Zidane's penalty you are talking about was in the final itself not the group stages. The Italian keeper had the last laugh.
Can't say his red card turned the game but Zidane as one of the 5 penalty takers was a given, not sure if Trezeguet was next in line.

For the way Zidane acted, his team deserved to lose.

[The Coon Dog]

So, who enjoys the theatre of penalty shoot outs & what are some you can recall?

[Chops]

So, who enjoys the theatre of penalty shoot outs & what are some you can recall?

Not me. A penalty are a small aspect of game, who ever loses were not outplayed on the day. Prefer the drama of a beautiful goal in normal play.

[Mantis]

So, who enjoys the theatre of penalty shoot outs & what are some you can recall?

I love them... The pressure and excitment is 2nd to none.

As much as I enjoy the mother country in action I love watching them get beat and have enjoyed there dismissals from the WC and Euro champs via the way of penalty shoot-outs over the years. Nothing better than watching the Poms crack under pressure. TCD you may have to help me with the years, but I think Batty and Southgate both missed crucial shots which led to the downfall of England in 2 different competition QF'S.

[The Coon Dog]

Gareth Southgate - Euro 96 v Germany
David Batty - 98 World Cup v Argentina

[Mantis]

Gareth Southgate - Euro 96 v Germany
David Batty - 98 World Cup v Argentina

Your a marvel.... Atleast I got the name's right.

[Billy Blogger]

I like to see all the dram and excitement of a shootout. I would probably prefer to just see a goal or two during the game more but it can be nerve racking watching a shoot out

[The Coon Dog]

Here are 2 more from last night's UEFA Cup action.

Everton v Fiorentina (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rLKCvrYTtk)

PSV v Spurs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFEC3wOXz0E)

[Chops]

I saw the highlights of the Fiorentina-Everton game. The Fiorentina keeper (Frey) save on the 4th Everton penalty was spectactular. Dive to the right and a hand above the head. He made up for the first Everton normal time goal which was more likely his fault.

[FrediKanoute]

Having just seen Spurs go down in penalties my love for them has not diminished at all......I love the nerves, the ability of players to go from hero to vilain and theagony of completely f*cking it up!

Sorts the men from the boys and proves that sport is 90% mental! BTW, best penalty taker in world football at the mo = Dimitar Berbatov!

[Chops]

BTW, best penalty taker in world football at the mo = Dimitar Berbatov!
Kevin Muscat :)

[westdog54]

Having just seen Spurs go down in penalties my love for them has not diminished at all......I love the nerves, the ability of players to go from hero to vilain and theagony of completely f*cking it up!

Sorts the men from the boys and proves that sport is 90% mental! BTW, best penalty taker in world football at the mo = Dimitar Berbatov!

I've said it before and I'll say it again. As far as I'm concerned there are no 'villains' in Penalty Shoot-outs. If you've got the grapefruits to step up and take a kick you're a hero to begin with.

Heroes are made in shoot-outs, not villains.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. As far as I'm concerned there are no 'villains' in Penalty Shoot-outs. If you've got the grapefruits to step up and take a kick you're a hero to begin with.

Heroes are made in shoot-outs, not villains.

That is so not true. Politically correct wank.

The manager decides who steps up to the spot (presumably based on training form), he doesn't ask for volunteers. All the cards are in the kicktakers favour, they should score and if they can handle pressure they will score.

The villians are the ones who can't handle the pressure and perform a skill they can do with their eyes closed at training.

Goalkeepers are the ones with nothing to lose.

[westdog54]

That is so not true. Politically correct wank.

The manager decides who steps up to the spot (presumably based on training form), he doesn't ask for volunteers. All the cards are in the kicktakers favour, they should score and if they can handle pressure they will score.

The villians are the ones who can't handle the pressure and perform a skill they can do with their eyes closed at training.

Goalkeepers are the ones with nothing to lose.

Which is exactly my point.

All the pressure is on the kicker. The goalkeeper decides left or right.

The statement that 'all the cards are in the kicktakers favour' is about as simplistic as it gets.

[Chops]

The goalkeeper decides left or right.

:)
Seen many a penalty go straight. Otherwise yes I agree the game is set up for the keeper to be a hero and penalty taker a villian.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Which is exactly my point.

All the pressure is on the kicker. The goalkeeper decides left or right.

The statement that 'all the cards are in the kicktakers favour' is about as simplistic as it gets.

How more complicated can it be?

At training he steps up to the spot and nails every one. All of a sudden all the pressure's on him and as he walks up to the spot he sees the goal shrinking.

It's all mental.

[westdog54]

How more complicated can it be?

At training he steps up to the spot and nails every one. All of a sudden all the pressure's on him and as he walks up to the spot he sees the goal shrinking.

It's all mental.

Give me a break SS.

Does Brendan Fevola kick every goal at training? Does Tiger Woods nail every practice putt he makes? Did Andrew Gaze make every free-throw at training?

To say "At training he steps up to the spot and nails every one" is downright foolery.

[Topdog]

The manager decides who steps up to the spot (presumably based on training form), he doesn't ask for volunteers. All the cards are in the kicktakers favour, they should score and if they can handle pressure they will score.

The villians are the ones who can't handle the pressure and perform a skill they can do with their eyes closed at training.


Not always. Most of the time it is up to the players to decide.

My respect for Chimbo went through the roof the other day when I found out that he has never taken a penalty before, misses in training and yet still had the gumption to take the last penalty kick for Spurs ahead of Lennon and more shockingly Malbranque who used to be the regular penalty taker for Fulham.

In a sense that has made Mabs a villian in my book.

What do people think of Baggio? Was he a hero or villian in Italy after that kick?

[The Coon Dog]

What do people think of Baggio? Was he a hero or villian in Italy after that kick?

Most Italians I know see him as a villian.

[westdog54]

Most Italians I know see him as a villian.

When you're an Italian footballer, it takes very little to become a villian in the eyes of a public.

In Baggio's case, not only did he miss that penalty, he had a very indifferent world cup. He wasn't all that fit, he was out of form, a couple of weeks he'd probably rather forget.

To compound all of that, he had done something that was simply not accepted by the Catholic heartland that is Italy. He had embraced Buddhism. The public decided that turning his back on God had been the cause of this downfall.

That's Italian football for you.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Give me a break SS.

Does Brendan Fevola kick every goal at training? Does Tiger Woods nail every practice putt he makes? Did Andrew Gaze make every free-throw at training?

To say "At training he steps up to the spot and nails every one" is downright foolery.

Yes.

A penalty is taken from what, 9 metres. Thats about as certain as Fev from 20m out or Tiger from 3 feet. These guys would nail every one without any pressure.

[Chops]

Baggio was not the villian in Italy.
He basically single handedly put them in the final. He torn his hammy in the semi and should never have played a game 3 or 4 days later. Indifferent tournament, I don't know. Had they have won he would have been the player of the tournment.
The Italian soccer fans don't give a stuff about whether he is Catholic or Bhuddist,. Football itself is a religion there.
The coach seems to be the villian more in Italy

If Baggio is a villain its in Florence, where he left Fiorentina for more money at Juventus.

[westdog54]

Yes.

A penalty is taken from what, 9 metres. Thats about as certain as Fev from 20m out or Tiger from 3 feet. These guys would nail every one without any pressure.

Really?

In one of the most important games they've ever played in?

With the entire world watching their every move on Television?

With anything up to 50,000 people in the crowd doing anything humanly possible to distract them?

With a highly skilled man standing that 9 metres away, who is allowed to stop the ball?

Imagine how Tiger would go if someone was allowed to throw something at his ball to keep it out of the cup.

Rubbish comparison.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Really?

In one of the most important games they've ever played in?

With the entire world watching their every move on Television?

With anything up to 50,000 people in the crowd doing anything humanly possible to distract them?

With a highly skilled man standing that 9 metres away, who is allowed to stop the ball?

Imagine how Tiger would go if someone was allowed to throw something at his ball to keep it out of the cup.

Rubbish comparison.

That's my point. It's all about handling the pressure.

Tiger would make 100/100 at practice from 3 feet. Stand over a 3 footer on the 18th on a Sunday and all of a sudden that putt looks a whole lot longer than a 3 footer - and Tiger would nail it because he could handle the pressure. Not every player could.

[westdog54]

That's my point. It's all about handling the pressure.

Tiger would make 100/100 at practice from 3 feet. Stand over a 3 footer on the 18th on a Sunday and all of a sudden that putt looks a whole lot longer than a 3 footer - and Tiger would nail it because he could handle the pressure. Not every player could.

But for a golfer, they're playing another tournament in a couple of weeks, they get another shot soon enough.

For a Footballer, that's it for the year/tournament/career/life in some circumstances.

And the golfer gets his putt in complete silence. I'm sure the footballer would love that luxury.

And as for Tiger Woods, you're using possibly the greatest sportsman in the world at the moment as your comparison. A tad unfair perhaps?

[Sockeye Salmon]

But for a golfer, they're playing another tournament in a couple of weeks, they get another shot soon enough.

For a Footballer, that's it for the year/tournament/career/life in some circumstances.

And the golfer gets his putt in complete silence. I'm sure the footballer would love that luxury.

And as for Tiger Woods, you're using possibly the greatest sportsman in the world at the moment as your comparison. A tad unfair perhaps?

Probably the most mentally tough sportsman in the world, which is why I used him as an example. I can't ever remember Tiger blowing one, he just eats pressure.

[Mantis]

Probably the most mentally tough sportsman in the world, which is why I used him as an example. I can't ever remember Tiger blowing one, he just eats pressure.

Here is a stat for you.

Before missing a putt from just under 2m in his final rd yesterday he was 51 from 51 for his past attempts at putts inside 2m. Crazy stuff.

[westdog54]

Probably the most mentally tough sportsman in the world, which is why I used him as an example. I can't ever remember Tiger blowing one, he just eats pressure.

So even if you're not the greatest footballer in the world then you're a villain if you miss a penalty.

Glad you cleared that up for me SS. Thanks.

[Sockeye Salmon]

So even if you're not the greatest footballer in the world then you're a villain if you miss a penalty.

Glad you cleared that up for me SS. Thanks.

No-one playing at that level is that bad a footballer.

[Chops]

No-one playing at that level is that bad a footballer.

I don't think penalty taking is football. One very small aspect.
I think the guy who holds the Guinness book of records basketball free throw title is somthing like 70yo but that wouldn't make him a good basketballer.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I don't think penalty taking is football. One very small aspect.
I think the guy who holds the Guinness book of records basketball free throw title is somthing like 70yo but that wouldn't make him a good basketballer.

He also not likely to be taking a free throw at the death of the 7th game of the playoffs.

[westdog54]

No-one playing at that level is that bad a footballer.

What level?

The Dutch league?

The K-League?

The Oceania confederation championship?

All levels of the game involve penalty shootouts.

[Chops]

BTW Baggio was considered a great penalty taker. Something like 120 out 135
Possibly the greatest of all penalty takers was Maradona. He actually waited for the keeper to move to a side then would kick it the opposite direction. I'm sure he missed a few too but I can't remember if he took them games as big.

[The Coon Dog]

Must have been a ripper last week!

Celtic defeated Dundee United in the Co-operative Insurance Cup Semi Final 11-10 on penalties.

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/scottishpremier/celtic/reports/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/09/01/28/SOCCER_Celtic.html&TEAMHD=celtic&DIV=scotsprem&TEAM=CELTIC&RH=Celtic&PREV_SEASON=2007

[craigsahibee]

The 2 keepers both scored their penalties. It's the first time I remember going through the entire team. I think there was 6 or 7 penalties taken by either side before a miss.

[Lantern]

I have an interesting point for those like SS who are discussing the merits/easiness of penalties. I lived in Cologne for 6 months, and my housemate was a triathlete who was a sports researcher at the German University of Sport in Cologne -- we had soccer players etc. coming through the doors all the time.

Now, as anyone who loves their soccer will know, Germany are the undisputed kings of the penalty shootout. They have only missed ONE penalty in 20 years of penalty shootouts, and that was in the very first ever penalty shootout in international soccer back in 1984 (trivia questions all -- who missed it? who were they playing etc.) -- funny aside: the guy who missed drops to the ground with his head in his hands like he's been shot and lies there for a whole minute. That's how much Germans don't expect to miss penalties.

Anyway, my point is this: the English (who would easily be on the shortlist of the worst penalty takers in history) have the same attitude as those who would say 'it's up to the kicker to miss, all the pressure is on the kicker, it's a matter of luck blah blah blah'. That's why if you watched England's last shootout in the World Cup (against Portugal), Paul Robinson the England keeper had no idea where any of the shots were going to go and didn't even move for three of them.

Was anyone watching Jens Lehmann, the German goalkeeper, when he lined up for Germany's penalty shootout in the quarterfinals? He had a piece of paper that he was studying as the kicker walked up to the spot. The paper contained the name of every player on the opposition team, their preferred foot and and their penalty preferences - 1st and 2nd choice. He ended up saving 3 of the 4 penalties taken (the 5th was never taken because Germany had won by then).

Now, I've been in the simulation chamber in the German University of Sport (I suppose it would be similar to the one down at the refurbished Whitten Oval) where you can load up literally any one of thousands of players on their database, and there will be a silllouhette projected on the lifesized screen that will simulate their penalty taking. A goalkeeper can then stand 'in goal' as it were, and get used to every conceivable type of penalty, learning to react intuitively to cues such as backlift, angle of approach etc. I've seen keepers from Borussia Dortmund, Bayer Leverkusen etc just work in the chamber for hours on end, training their reflexes until they know instinctively where to guess 70 - 80% of the time.

Conversely, outfield penalty takers have their eyeball movement tracked and recorded when taking penalties to discover the optimum side to kick to, where they should be looking etc, and they are given only two options when taking penalties - top right or top left corner, and they repeat it ad nauseum until they can shoot to either spot on demand. They also have their VO2 max taken after 120 minutes to figure out who is in the best physical shape (and thus mentally fresher) to take penalties and in which order.

Now tell me that penalty shootouts are a matter of luck. Tell me that you are not a 'villian' if you don't train for a penalty shootout like you would train for a game. England even says that they don't practice for shootouts -- absolute madness when you consider how many tournaments are decided by them.

Tell me, if it's just a matter of luck, that it's an accident that Germany has never ever, ever lost a penalty shootout in tournament play.

[Lantern]

BTW Baggio was considered a great penalty taker. Something like 120 out 135
Possibly the greatest of all penalty takers was Maradona. He actually waited for the keeper to move to a side then would kick it the opposite direction. I'm sure he missed a few too but I can't remember if he took them games as big.

Funny thing is, the superstar players are the most likely to fluff their kicks -- Maradona missed his penalty in a Copa America final, in World Cup penalty shootouts TWICE (Yugoslavia and US). Some other famous penalty misses are: Platini , Socrates, Zico, Baggio has already been mentioned, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho etc all missed when they were the best player in the world/tournament they were playing in.

Factors suggested for this are: the pressure of being the 'best player' so expected to score easily, and scoreboard pressure, as the best player normally takes the 4th or 5th penalty, so is usually kicking to win the game or to save it.

Funnily enough, having just bagged English players in my previous post -- I would have to say the best penalty taker I've ever seen (apart from every single player to have pulled on a German national jersey) is Alan Shearer. Top left, top right, at will, semifinals, quarterfinals etc. and I've never seen him even come close to missing.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I have an interesting point for those like SS who are discussing the merits/easiness of penalties.

I am?

[craigsahibee]

And one of the topics on this forum is "Has science ruined or enhanced sport?" I think the germans will argue a case for the affirmative.

I agree with your comments regarding Alan Shearer. Shearer and Zizou are the only sportsmen wearing black and white stripes that I have enjoyed watching.

I refuse to buy anything from foot locker because of the shirts the sales staff wear.

[Sockeye Salmon]

And one of the topics on this forum is "Has science ruined or enhanced sport?" I think the germans will argue a case for the affirmative.


They haven't really used science, they have simply studied their opposition like professional sportsmen should.

Now, how would you feel if they invented some kind of mindreading device where the goalie knew in advance which way the kick would go?

[Chops]

I think technology has ruined the games of tennis and golf.

[craigsahibee]

Now, how would you feel if they invented some kind of mindreading device where the goalie knew in advance which way the kick would go?


How do we know they haven't already?;)