Welcome to the Bulldogs - Tim English

[angelopetraglia]

Unfair comparison when Gawn has played 200 games and is more mature. At the same age, Tim more than stands upagainst a Gawn

Agree that statically Tim will stack up. He gets plenty of the ball. He covers the ground. The knock on him is not his ability to get the footy.

The criticism is in the clinches is he tougher enough? Is he physically dominated in big games? Does he have the killer hard instinct that the best Ruckman have?

[GVGjr]

Fair enough. In a big final, I'm not taking Tim before Gawn, Darcy, Marshall, Draper and possibly the Big O and Witts, just for physical presence and intimidation.

This has been Tim's breakout season but is there more that he can achieve? Absolutely there is. Handling physical opposition ruckman might be the next phase of his development.

Your post wanted us to compare Tim in a finals and yet 3 of those players mentioned aren't in the finals.
Do we lose much in these match-ups?
Cameron from the Pies, McInerney from the Lions, not sure who Port will use, Gawn from Melbourne, Pittonet from Carlton, Marshall from the Saints, Hickey from the Swans and Briggs from GWS.

I don't mind Tim's chances against those candidates.

[angelopetraglia]

This has been Tim's breakout season but is there more that he can achieve? Absolutely there is. Handling physical opposition ruckman might be the next phase of his development.

Your post wanted us to compare Tim in a finals and yet 3 of those players mentioned aren't in the finals.
Do we lose much in these match-ups?
Cameron from the Pies, McInerney from the Lions, not sure who Port will use, Gawn from Melbourne, Pittonet from Carlton, Marshall from the Saints, Hickey from the Swans and Briggs from GWS.

I don't mind Tim's chances against those candidates.

It is a valid point. Against those specific Ruckman in a final which is often a much more contested game, more physical and Ruckman play a crucial role in the repeated stoppages.

Cameron or English? English.

Big O or English? English. But concerned Big O could work him over.

Gawn or English? Gawn.

Pittonet or English? English.

Marshall or English? Marshall.

In the recent era when we played our best footy in the first half of 2021. When did we look most dangerous? When we were playing two Ruckman and Tim was playing the forward resting role. No coincidence IMHO.

[jeemak]

Tim (or Sweet) historically loses the hit outs and we have excellent clearance statistics and scoring from clearance statistics, and then he has a season where he wins more hit outs and does really well from a hit outs to advantage perspective but we don't do as well in scores from clearances, and he's to blame.

Outside of the odd boundary throw in I think rucks at stoppages aren't really the main game, and that the mix of players around the ball and how they play together has a bigger impact.

We've had a homogenous approach to clearance work with less diversity and it's been to our detriment. It's resulted in opposition set-ups finding us predictable, and us having less options for times in which one of Bont or Libba aren't in the thick of it.

Focusing on Tim who's having a great year is missing the point for mine and I'd like to see us get our clearance game back to going how it was when Tim wasn't winning hit outs.

What we really need from him is for him to continue to get fitter and stronger, and not have lapses around the ground that really impact his effectiveness.

[Grantysghost]

We need a proper ruck because Tim is AA and we are the number one clearance side?

Or... Because we want it to be 2009 again and have a physical presence.

These arguments are perplexing.

It's like a bad rumour somebody started as a gag and everyone replicates.

[Grantysghost]

Sorry not trying to dismiss you.

I just can't believe the bagging and treatment of Tim by many on this board, which I believe is unwarranted.

Word.

[angelopetraglia]

We need a proper ruck because Tim is AA and we are the number one clearance side?

Or... Because we want it to be 2009 again and have a physical presence.

These arguments are perplexing.

It's like a bad rumour somebody started as a gag and everyone replicates.

We are the number #1 stoppage clearance team. We are the number #14 centre clearance team.

[Grantysghost]

We are the number #1 stoppage clearance team. We are the number #14 centre clearance team.

#1!

[Grantysghost]

#1!

#2 total.

Centre clearances are pretty dependant on goals for and against too.

In all seriousness it points me to the fact our midfield without the extra struggles. Stoppages we usually have an extra.

[angelopetraglia]

#2 total.

Centre clearances are pretty dependant on goals for and against too.

In all seriousness it points me to the fact our midfield without the extra struggles. Stoppages we usually have an extra.

For differences in centre clearance we are number #4. We average one per game more than the opposition. For difference in stoppages we are number #1 with an average of four more per game that than opposition.

[macca]

Tim English

21 Disposal, 9 Marks, 51 Hitouts (11 to Advantage)

Not sure what else he can do as a ruckman

the stat I Was looking for was HO for williams ,
Williams : 41 HO, 9 HTA
English : 51 HO, 11 HTA

ok English won the ruck contest based on those stats by 2 HTA. Yeah maybe we should pay him the $1 million dollar a year.
But it is Willimas , playing his 15th games in his 5th season( 5th game this season, zero in his first season).

thanks @bornadog for showing me how these stats are found: https://www.afl.com.au/stats/leaders...ayerTwoId=null

[hujsh]

Sorry not trying to dismiss you.

I just can't believe the bagging and treatment of Tim by many on this board, which I believe is unwarranted.

Fair enough.

I've been ready to get on the Tim Train for what it's worth and have been keen to embrace the numbers like what you posted as evidence he's doing well and he's 'The Guy' for us but... it's so hard watching him sometimes. I know he can get disposals but I don't want him to have the ball in most circumstances. Especially if he has to go back over the mark. He has some decent HTA numbers but it feels like most of the time those HTA end up as snaps forward rather than substantial breakaway clearances. Meanwhile a number of the other hitouts he wins are getting shanked by opposition mids.

He also doesn't often seem to provide that down the line contest for us and it was mentioned on the weekend he's had something like 12 marks inside 50 all year.

He can take a grab behind the ball somewhat decently though I'll admit that.

[jeemak]

Williams took a single mark versus Tim's nine, had half the disposals Tim had and didn't kick a goal like Tim did.

We have to be mindful of how we compare Tim to other rucks as he's more rounded than they are.

[hujsh]

This has been Tim's breakout season but is there more that he can achieve? Absolutely there is. Handling physical opposition ruckman might be the next phase of his development.

Your post wanted us to compare Tim in a finals and yet 3 of those players mentioned aren't in the finals.
Do we lose much in these match-ups?
Cameron from the Pies, McInerney from the Lions, not sure who Port will use, Gawn from Melbourne, Pittonet from Carlton, Marshall from the Saints, Hickey from the Swans and Briggs from GWS.

I don't mind Tim's chances against those candidates.

I'd almost back Tim in against Gawn more than the other 'lesser' ruckmen. Kind of like how Lycett absolutely nullified him mid year I don't have faith in him if his opponent gives him respect and is a somewhat capable ruckman (not a part timer).

I think important context for all this is the idea that he's supposedly expecting to be paid a million a year. If it was being reported he wanted $600k or something it'd be harder to criticise him but he is asking to be paid like a legitimate superstar so it kind of begs the question 'is he actually that good?'

[jeemak]

Who has been more consistent this year? English or Bont?

I get the feeling we're all over Tim for a game in which he doesn't have it all his own way, and ignore a lot of what he does well in those same games.

It's like we expect perfection from him, when in reality some are going to get him, others won't, and other times those things will be mixed around next time the game's played.

Carey and Jakovich, who won those contests? Does the latter being considered someone who got the better of Carey diminish Carey's stature? It's an extreme example but with the ruck it's a genuine one on one battle (outside of small forwards vs. small defenders one of the only genuine one on one battles left in the game), and in some instances the players will bring different things to the table that balance the scales.