Who would you have JMac target this year?

[Remi Moses]

Tend to agree with the above , but it's difficult when players have contracts just to de-list players.
Had a night at the movies, so I've only seen the first half so far, but I just can't fathom how a team can fall away so badly .
It's clearly a combination of fitness , effort and intent . It's just totally unacceptable

[SquirrelGrip]

We weakened our list between the end of 2016 season and when the 2017 season started.
We should have cut harder into the delistings and looked to have added some depth.

The 3 you have mentioned I don't think will be ready for an extended run at senior footy next year either.

In theory at the start of the year, it didn't look so bad.

Coming in as virtually "new" from our Premiership Team were Crameri, Cloke, Murphy, Wallis, Redpath and Adams. Jong and Suckling also additions, plus developing young players including Dale, Williams, Webb and Collins.

In practice, we've coped much worse with this year's injuries than last year.

[GVGjr]

In theory at the start of the year, it didn't look so bad.

Coming in as virtually "new" from our Premiership Team were Crameri, Cloke, Murphy, Wallis, Redpath and Adams. Jong and Suckling also additions, plus developing young players including Dale, Williams, Webb and Collins.

In practice, we've coped much worse with this year's injuries than last year.

I cant agree with this, Wallis and Redpath were at best mid season players and there had to be a question mark on Murphy plus losing Hamling and Minson was always likely to test our depth in key position. Collins was always going to need two years at Footscray.
We took risks with the depth of the list and I think it's been a contributor to our current form.

The form displayed by so many players however, has been disappointing and we just haven't hit our straps. Pockets of our footy looks good and a some of it looks bad. We have also had no real answer from the coaching box but I also think we haven't had the right options to play.

[azabob]

GVGjr from memory you have always been an advocate for making more list changes than we typically do. How many list changes do you think we need to make this time?

[Sedat]

I cant agree with this, Wallis and Redpath were at best mid season players and there had to be a question mark on Murphy plus losing Hamling and Minson was always likely to test our depth in key position. Collins was always going to need two years at Footscray.
We took risks with the depth of the list and I think it's been a contributor to our current form.

The form displayed by so many players however, has been disappointing and we just haven't hit our straps. Pockets of our footy looks good and a some of it looks bad. We have also had no real answer from the coaching box but I also think we haven't had the right options to play.

Your pre season assertions have been proven correct but it is incredible to think that not a single player out of 44 on the list has made significant incremental improvement year on year. And worse, a large number of them have regressed sharply from their 2016 form. That is something the match committee would not have seen coming at all considering the youth of our list and clear capacity for improvement within (that hasn't materialised at all for whatever reason).

[ReLoad]

Your pre season assertions have been proven correct but it is incredible to think that not a single player out of 44 on the list has made significant incremental improvement year on year. And worse, a large number of them have regressed sharply from their 2016 form. That is something the match committee would not have seen coming at all considering the youth of our list and clear capacity for improvement within (that hasn't materialised at all for whatever reason).

The only argument I would insert is Bailey Dale, i really think he has improved a lot and the trend is certainly upwards with him

[GVGjr]

GVGjr from memory you have always been an advocate for making more list changes than we typically do. How many list changes do you think we need to make this time?

We've had a tendency to hang onto some marginal players for too long. In most instances that hasn't worked out well for us.
How hard I think we should cut into the list would depend on why we think the sharp drop in form from one year to the next has occurred:
1) Is because of a genuine hangover and we that we are very likely to bounce straight back
2) Is it because a few players just don't have it in them now to give 100% again
3) Are a few out of sort players dragging down the focus of others in the group
4) Have the other clubs worked us out and we can reinvent again in 2018
5) Where will our improvement come from if we just tinker around the edges

At the moment, I think 7 from the primary list would be a reasonable starting point. That might jump up a fraction but it shouldn't just be 5 changes.

The worrying sign is the small number of players that have improved since last year and that our skill level, particularly by foot, and appears to have gone backwards and our intensity level just isn't quite there.

[GVGjr]

Your pre season assertions have been proven correct but it is incredible to think that not a single player out of 44 on the list has made significant incremental improvement year on year. And worse, a large number of them have regressed sharply from their 2016 form. That is something the match committee would not have seen coming at all considering the youth of our list and clear capacity for improvement within (that hasn't materialised at all for whatever reason).

All year long many people have been making excuses for the players and our performance because of last years heroics. I get the reason for confidence but we went above and beyond reality and considered ourselves some sort of walk up start to the finals based on last year form and it's that sort of hubris that has let us down.

We let some depth players go and didn't replace them and we retained some marginal talent. We took risks on players with a history of injuries and we didn't address the gaps within our list. We didn't have a stronger list at the start of 2017 than what we had at the end of 2016. How much improvement in the younger group did we factor in? We were always going to be targeted by the other clubs and we don't appear to have the skill level to go with them.

I accept that we didn't see the sharp decline in our veteran players as a genuine reason but some of the other list decisions didn't make sense then and are hard to defend now.

The match committee is another discussion worth having.

[always right]

I'd like to think that we can turn around our attitude next year. It appears we just expected everything to fall into place this year.

Three key areas to address IMO;
1. Injection of some pace which will become even more important if we lose JJ. This includes finding a quick small forward.
2. Introducing players with kicking skills. Hopefully this will in part be addressed by Webb becoming a regular but we need to put greater emphasis on this in the draft.
3. Structural/tactical changes. Do we develop a run-with player and a better structure for centre clearances? This might actually translate into changes to our assistant coaches group.

[Twodogs]

I cant agree with this, Wallis and Redpath were at best mid season players and there had to be a question mark on Murphy plus losing Hamling and Minson was always likely to test our depth in key position. Collins was always going to need two years at Footscray.
We took risks with the depth of the list and I think it's been a contributor to our current form.

The form displayed by so many players however, has been disappointing and we just haven't hit our straps. Pockets of our footy looks good and a some of it looks bad. We have also had no real answer from the coaching box but I also think we haven't had the right options to play.

Correct. We took some chances, maybe even gambles, and they didn't come off.

[bornadog]

We've had a tendency to hang onto some marginal players for too long.

Name names? ( only on current list, forget the past).

When I put up the thread about Murphy, Boyd and Morris, not one poster agreed. To me they are the first to go at the end of the year.

How deep do you want to cut into the list, 5?, 10? more? Last year we had 5 new players come in (excl Rookies)

Answering the OP

I want JMAC to go and get Lever and Kelly. We need a pacey outside mid, that can run away from the packs and kick the ball well.

We have too many of the same type of players in our midfield.

[GVGjr]

Name names? ( only on current list, forget the past).

How deep do you want to cut into the list, 5?, 10? more? [/B]Last year we had 5 new players come in (excl Rookies)

The question I was asked contained a comment that I was always advocating for deeper cuts to the list therefore it was referencing the past. I would have thought Prudden, Honeychurch and Roarke Smith would have been regarded as fortunate to survive especially with known long term injuries to Wallis and Redpath. A couple of spots could have easily put some depth back into the list.
We went into the season light on for experienced players and with a few injuries and some drop in form we've struggled to play good football for enough time in our games.

[bornadog]

The question I was asked contained a comment that I was always advocating for deeper cuts to the list therefore it was referencing the past. I would have thought Prudden, Honeychurch and Roarke Smith would have been regarded as fortunate to survive especially with known long term injuries to Wallis and Redpath. A couple of spots could have easily put some depth back into the list.
We went into the season light on for experienced players and with a few injuries and some drop in form we've struggled to play good football for enough time in our games.

Only Honeychurch off the main list, which means one more player - that is hardly cutting deeper.

Any way - how many would you advocate for this year - forgetting the Rookie list at this stage.

For me I have the three 35 year olds, Hamilton, Honeychurch, and possibly Webb - which makes it 6. I think JJ will stay, and we may look at trading out another player depending on JMAC and who he chases.

[GVGjr]

Only Honeychurch off the main list, which means one more player - that is hardly cutting deeper.

Prudden was on the main list wasn't he? and spots on the rookie list have served us well over the years

Any way - how many would you advocate for this year - forgetting the Rookie list at this stage.

I've already answered this earlier today on the post you quoted and removed most of it.

[bornadog]

Prudden was on the main list wasn't he? and spots on the rookie list have served us well over the years



I've already answered this earlier today on the post you quoted and removed most of it.

Yes Prudden, I forgot about him, so we already made 6 changes coming into this year - that was a fair amount, with Honeychurch the lucky one.

Sorry missed that, so 7. I have 6 at the moment, and I am unsure on Crameri and Redpath.