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  1. #16
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    Re: Is Western Bulldogs star Tom Boyd suffering from a premiership hangover?

    Quote Originally Posted by comrade View Post
    I just don't see how Boyd becomes a top line key forward with his limited marking ability. He has a worse technique than just about any forward I've ever seen.
    For me, I'd rather his sole training and development focus being on rectifying and improving any marking issues rather than tap work and ruck positioning. I'd rather him have a more clear focus on his forward craft, including marking and leading/running patterns, and have to navigate himself into the game up forward and work through limited entries or quiet patches there to become more imposing.

    After the GF I can't recall too much concern about his marking technique. I heard a lot of Dermott Breteton in the JLT banging on about his marking, something he wasn't doing when he was coaching him at GWS incidentally. He's a 21yo kid with time to improve his forward craft to become a dominant player. He can't do that if he's rucking too much and spending attention and training about ruck positioning and tap work. I guess I have a lot of faith in Tom and his ability to develop into the gun everyone knew he was when drafted & traded, past his current 44 games.
    I'm worth a million in prizes, with my torture film. Drive a G.T.O. Wear a uniform. All on a government loan.

    I'm worth a million in prizes. Yeah I'm through with sleeping on the sidewalk - no more beating my brains. No more beating my brains. With the liquor and drugs. With the liquor and drugs.

    Well I am just a modern guy, of course I've had it in the ear before. 'Cause of a lust for life. 'Cause of a lust for life. I got a lust for life.

  2. #17
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    Re: Is Western Bulldogs star Tom Boyd suffering from a premiership hangover?

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogtragic View Post
    I guess I have a lot of faith in Tom and his ability to develop into the gun everyone knew he was when drafted & traded, past his current 44 games.
    There have been plenty of top rated players that dominated as juniors that couldn't make the transition to the AFL. Boyd wouldn't be the first, and he won't be the last.

    His GF performance was a complete outlier in terms of his career output. Now, I will forever love him for picking that particular day to produce that type of performance, but his marking (in his AFL career) has never been as good before and certainly since that game.

    I think we're not that far away in our opinion. I don't think he should become a full time stay at home key forward and if he does, that he'll reach anywhere near the level of Josh Kennedy etc. I do think he should spend less time rucking: a 75/25% split seems about right. He is relatively mobile, he kicks the ball beautifully around the ground and his ruck work is improving quickly. Games like Friday do him no favours where he is rucking 90%.

    I'd love to be wrong and he turns into Josh Kennedy v2.0, with Roughead and eventually English taking all the ruck work. I just personally don't see him being capable of it.
    Our 1954 premiership players are our heroes, and it has to be said that Charlie was their hero.

  3. #18
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    Re: Is Western Bulldogs star Tom Boyd suffering from a premiership hangover?

    Nothing wrong with differing opinions. For me, he's only 21, played only 44 games and I personally wouldn't include his name even remotely close to a discussion about top rated kids who didn't make the transition in the AFL.

    He will be just fine if developed right.
    I'm worth a million in prizes, with my torture film. Drive a G.T.O. Wear a uniform. All on a government loan.

    I'm worth a million in prizes. Yeah I'm through with sleeping on the sidewalk - no more beating my brains. No more beating my brains. With the liquor and drugs. With the liquor and drugs.

    Well I am just a modern guy, of course I've had it in the ear before. 'Cause of a lust for life. 'Cause of a lust for life. I got a lust for life.

  4. #19
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    Re: Is Western Bulldogs star Tom Boyd suffering from a premiership hangover?

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogtragic View Post
    Nothing wrong with differing opinions. For me, he's only 21, played only 44 games and I personally wouldn't include his name even remotely close to a discussion about top rated kids who didn't make the transition in the AFL.

    He will be just fine if developed right.
    You know what would help his development as a key forward? Playing him as a key forward. The rucking has to stop as soon as Roughead can go.

  5. #20
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    Re: Is Western Bulldogs star Tom Boyd suffering from a premiership hangover?

    Quote Originally Posted by comrade View Post
    Roughead and Campbell both played through 2016 without any major, long term injury issues. Why plan for both of them to go down?

    Boyd playing as ruck/forward won us a flag. It's an incredibly important position in the modern game, and he should split his time between forward and 2nd ruck moving forward.

    Who cares how much we pay him. Playing him forward exclusively because of his contract rather than where he better suits the team (and his own capabilities) is insane.
    Then let's play him forward because he is a very promising key forward who needs to learn his craft.

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogtragic View Post
    Not sure anyone is saying anything 'insane' like that. The reference to money, that at least I made, was that the rules now allow tall bean poles to have a spot in the modern game, like Jarrod Witts. So if we desire someone like that, we could go after one this year for nada salary and free Boyd up. I don't think that's going to happen. Also, Boyd was so highly regarded and aggressively pursued as a future gun KPF, not be over rucking and I've not seen anything to tell me he can't develop into that gun KPF at the level. Boyd can do the same thing in the ruck as Witts because he's a similar size. That doesn't make him a good ruckman, it's just his size.

    The argument is he's been a gun forward, has the career output with other gun forwards at this stage, should help out a little in the ruck, but should be developed to be the gun forward those who followed him for many years know he can be. Over rucking him isn't good for his forward development. His development as a KP forward has significantly more mid and long term benefit to our club than over rucking a tall kid. I'd hate to think our investment in him will slow or reduce because he's rucking to the point the rest of his game suffers. He's very, very close to Josh Kennedy in career output to 43 games, his original draft selection, that he was traded early in a big trade. West Coast put the time into him as a forward and would be rapt with the outcome, and I'm suggesting we do it as much as we can possibly do. We have a rare talent on the list, and we just need to develop him and rucking the amount he has been is not going to develop his forward craft. When Camhead are fit I understand this will help.
    Yep. At the moment it's needs must but I'm becoming more convinced that we erred at the last trade period in not making a difficult call on a guy like Prudden and going hell for leather after Trengove or, failing that, a ruckman who could have stepped into the breech in case everthing went pear shaped with the two and a half ruckmen we had.

    Quote Originally Posted by comrade View Post
    I just don't see how Boyd becomes a top line key forward with his limited marking ability. He has a worse technique than just about any forward I've ever seen.
    Match practice. It's a simple technique issue that can be fixed by forward craft learned by playing in the forward line. He's not going to learn those things unless he is playing as a forward because when something like that happens he knows he's going to get another chance at it soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Days View Post
    You know what would help his development as a key forward? Playing him as a key forward. The rucking has to stop as soon as Roughead can go.
    Perzactly.
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  6. #21
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    Re: Is Western Bulldogs star Tom Boyd suffering from a premiership hangover?

    Boyd's 21, not playing under 7s Auskick. If he can't take regulation marks consistently now, I doubt he ever will.
    Our 1954 premiership players are our heroes, and it has to be said that Charlie was their hero.

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  8. #22
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    Re: Is Western Bulldogs star Tom Boyd suffering from a premiership hangover?

    Quote Originally Posted by comrade View Post
    I just don't see how Boyd becomes a top line key forward with his limited marking ability. He has a worse technique than just about any forward I've ever seen.
    That's a very damning assessment. Do you really believe that?

    I think with the right coaching and support he could be a very good key forward. He just needs time and patience to develop his game
    Great. I need one more thing. Soda. Yeah, I don't want my guys paying for soda. I want you to stock my machine for three years. I'm serious.

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  9. #23
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    Re: Is Western Bulldogs star Tom Boyd suffering from a premiership hangover?

    Quote Originally Posted by comrade View Post
    Boyd's 21, not playing under 7s Auskick. If he can't take regulation marks consistently now, I doubt he ever will.
    Best trade him while his value is good.
    I'm worth a million in prizes, with my torture film. Drive a G.T.O. Wear a uniform. All on a government loan.

    I'm worth a million in prizes. Yeah I'm through with sleeping on the sidewalk - no more beating my brains. No more beating my brains. With the liquor and drugs. With the liquor and drugs.

    Well I am just a modern guy, of course I've had it in the ear before. 'Cause of a lust for life. 'Cause of a lust for life. I got a lust for life.

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  11. #24
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    Re: Is Western Bulldogs star Tom Boyd suffering from a premiership hangover?

    Quote Originally Posted by comrade View Post
    Roughead and Campbell both played through 2016 without any major, long term injury issues. Why plan for both of them to go down?

    Boyd playing as ruck/forward won us a flag. It's an incredibly important position in the modern game, and he should split his time between forward and 2nd ruck moving forward.

    Who cares how much we pay him. Playing him forward exclusively because of his contract rather than where he better suits the team (and his own capabilities) is insane.
    Campbell missed 8 games last year including a 6 weeks spell with a foot injury. Roughead has been injury prone but he certainly did have a very good 2016. I'd say it's stretching things to say we should have been close to 100% confident that both boys could back it up again.

    As for the insane comment, well the club was after a young key forward, desperate for one even bidding our 6th pick on Darcy Moore before moving the 6th pick, a club captain and we paid some of his salary to what would eventually be an emerging rival to get a blockbuster deal done.
    It's also worth noting that we paid Boyd a significant contract and commitment to get the deal done.
    The clubs comments that followed indicated we had the forward we had been chasing for years and in time it would be money well spent.

    Given all that, I'm not sure why so many have given up on that focus given Boyd has had some challenges with shoulder injuries etc during his time with us. I also think you can find ruckman easier than you can potentially dominant key forwards so I don't get the insane comment about wanting him to be given a good chance to develop as a key forward.

    Why wouldn't we put some support around him to see if can become the player we went 'all in' for?
    Great. I need one more thing. Soda. Yeah, I don't want my guys paying for soda. I want you to stock my machine for three years. I'm serious.

    "Lets roll and hey...lets do it to them before they do it to us"

  12. #25
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    Re: Is Western Bulldogs star Tom Boyd suffering from a premiership hangover?

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    Campbell missed 8 games last year including a 6 weeks spell with a foot injury. Roughead has been injury prone but he certainly did have a very good 2016. I'd say it's stretching things to say we should have been close to 100% confident that both boys could back it up again.

    As for the insane comment, well the club was after a young key forward, desperate for one even bidding our 6th pick on Darcy Moore before moving the 6th pick, a club captain and we paid some of his salary to what would eventually be an emerging rival to get a blockbuster deal done.
    It's also worth noting that we paid Boyd a significant contract and commitment to get the deal done.
    The clubs comments that followed indicated we had the forward we had been chasing for years and in time it would be money well spent.

    Given all that, I'm not sure why so many have given up on that focus given Boyd has had some challenges with shoulder injuries etc during his time with us. I also think you can find ruckman easier than you can potentially dominant key forwards so I don't get the insane comment about wanting him to be given a good chance to develop as a key forward.

    Why wouldn't we put some support around him to see if can become the player we went 'all in' for?
    Precisely, for the negative assessments and comments from different areas, Tom's record compares favourably with Josh Kennedy, Pavlich, Nick Riewoldt, Jon Brown, Trav Cloke etc.

    If Tom has done this, and achieved a comparable output despite all these apparent glaring faults (and shoulder reco and playing ruck) in his game, then just imagine what Tom could do if he's developed properly as a key forward to overcome the faults? One logical extension is that if he has a higher ceiling in him than those above, then he could be better and every bit the gun if we develop him accordingly. Now is the time age and games experience to go 'all in' in his development.
    I'm worth a million in prizes, with my torture film. Drive a G.T.O. Wear a uniform. All on a government loan.

    I'm worth a million in prizes. Yeah I'm through with sleeping on the sidewalk - no more beating my brains. No more beating my brains. With the liquor and drugs. With the liquor and drugs.

    Well I am just a modern guy, of course I've had it in the ear before. 'Cause of a lust for life. 'Cause of a lust for life. I got a lust for life.

  13. #26
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    Re: Is Western Bulldogs star Tom Boyd suffering from a premiership hangover?

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogtragic View Post
    For me, I'd rather his sole training and development focus being on rectifying and improving any marking issues rather than tap work and ruck positioning. I'd rather him have a more clear focus on his forward craft, including marking and leading/running patterns, and have to navigate himself into the game up forward and work through limited entries or quiet patches there to become more imposing.
    I think this should have been our approaching going into the season but losing Roughead for an extended period and with Campbell a bit behind in preparation it's forced our hand with Boyd. If we look to find some support next year I think we should because he will be approaching a good period from an age and experience profile next year.

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogtragic View Post

    After the GF I can't recall too much concern about his marking technique. I heard a lot of Dermott Breteton in the JLT banging on about his marking, something he wasn't doing when he was coaching him at GWS incidentally. He's a 21yo kid with time to improve his forward craft to become a dominant player. He can't do that if he's rucking too much and spending attention and training about ruck positioning and tap work. I guess I have a lot of faith in Tom and his ability to develop into the gun everyone knew he was when drafted & traded, past his current 44 games.
    He's got some work to do but that's why we have so many coaches and if necessary a VFL side that plays in the same manner of the senior side. Dermott makes some good observations but I think his one of Boyd is wrong.

    I agree we need to show more faith in the player.
    Great. I need one more thing. Soda. Yeah, I don't want my guys paying for soda. I want you to stock my machine for three years. I'm serious.

    "Lets roll and hey...lets do it to them before they do it to us"

  14. #27
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    Re: Is Western Bulldogs star Tom Boyd suffering from a premiership hangover?

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogtragic View Post
    Precisely, for the negative assessments and comments from different areas, Tom's record compares favourably with Josh Kennedy, Pavlich, Nick Riewoldt, Jon Brown, Trav Cloke etc.

    If Tom has done this, and achieved a comparable output despite all these apparent glaring faults (and shoulder reco and playing ruck) in his game, then just imagine what Tom could do if he's developed properly as a key forward to overcome the faults? One logical extension is that if he has a higher ceiling in him than those above, then he could be better and every bit the gun if we develop him accordingly. Now is the time age and games experience to go 'all in' in his development.
    Nearly all young key positions players have flaws in their game and as you pointed out clubs should take the longer term view on the players with the 'higher ceiling'.

    Yes Boyd has to be that forward ruckman but the hard work is more about developing him as a forward.
    Great. I need one more thing. Soda. Yeah, I don't want my guys paying for soda. I want you to stock my machine for three years. I'm serious.

    "Lets roll and hey...lets do it to them before they do it to us"

  15. #28
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    Re: Is Western Bulldogs star Tom Boyd suffering from a premiership hangover?

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogtragic View Post
    Best trade him while his value is good.
    As if anyone would take his contract on
    Our 1954 premiership players are our heroes, and it has to be said that Charlie was their hero.

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  17. #29
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    Re: Is Western Bulldogs star Tom Boyd suffering from a premiership hangover?

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    Nearly all young key positions players have flaws in their game and as you pointed out clubs should take the longer term view on the players with the 'higher ceiling'.

    Yes Boyd has to be that forward ruckman but the hard work is more about developing him as a forward.
    Who knows in time if he has to be. If Roughy is still best 22 by the time English is playing well at the level (whenever that is), essentially as a very tall midfielder who can ruck, then Boyd may not be rucking that much and spending most time forward. Which is precisely why the forward development is so important now going ahead. It's interesting that for most of my life I've heard us lament not having a pick 1 type KPF at the Dogs. Now we've got one...
    I'm worth a million in prizes, with my torture film. Drive a G.T.O. Wear a uniform. All on a government loan.

    I'm worth a million in prizes. Yeah I'm through with sleeping on the sidewalk - no more beating my brains. No more beating my brains. With the liquor and drugs. With the liquor and drugs.

    Well I am just a modern guy, of course I've had it in the ear before. 'Cause of a lust for life. 'Cause of a lust for life. I got a lust for life.

  18. #30
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    Re: Is Western Bulldogs star Tom Boyd suffering from a premiership hangover?

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogtragic View Post
    Who knows in time if he has to be. If Roughy is still best 22 by the time English is playing well at the level (whenever that is), essentially as a very tall midfielder who can ruck, then Boyd may not be rucking that much and spending most time forward. Which is precisely why the forward development is so important now going ahead. It's interesting that for most of my life I've heard us lament not having a pick 1 type KPF at the Dogs. Now we've got one...
    And especially while Boyd has the luxury of someone like Cloke there with him, taking a big defender and a lot of pressure off. For all his struggles last year, Trav definitely made things easier for Darcy Moore when he was up there with him.

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