The conundrum for Bevo

[comrade]

I'd actually expect him to say 'I'm 100% with Bevo, he's a ruckman' and tow the new company line. That Dal didn't hesitate for a nanosecond in his statement to me has a sense of strong confidence in his assertion. With the greatest of respect to those arguing against Simon Dalrymple, I personally accept his opinions to hold greater weight than mine and other members. So when Dal says he has no doubt Boyd will be a commanding KPF and needs time to develop into the role as he's still just 21, I think the gun AFL recruiter whose watched Tom Boyd for probably 7-8 years is a very decent authority on Tom Boyd. We can all agree to disagree, but I'm happy to side with Simon Dalrymple.

And I'm happy to side with the reigning premiership coach

[Stefcep]

He doesn't have the hands to become a dominant KPF or the mobility.

Ruck/forward is what he's born to do and he's very good at it. He'll never be a commanding KF and the sooner Roughie is back the better.

THIS.

Have a close look at his hands when he tries to mark- flat, bent back, fingers not spread, doesn't attack the ball but rather waits for it to hit has hands. I can't actually recall him plucking the ball out of the air.

[LostDoggy]

Yes my point being that I dont believe there is such a conundrum.

Every injury plays its part. People write off the impact of Boyd as a forward by pointing to his lack of marks but him missing from the fwd line means that 2 big guys go to Stringer or that its easier to intercept our F50 entries.

We have been smashed by injuries early, are 1 win off first and are in every game to the final whistle.

I'm just not even close to being worried.

This.

[comrade]

THIS.

Have a close look at his hands when he tries to mark- flat, bent back, fingers not spread, doesn't attack the ball but rather waits for it to hit has hands. I can't actually recall him plucking the ball out of the air.

Before the WC match, Fox Footy showed some footage of his technique and Brereton (who for all his verbosity related faults, does analyse key forwards reasonably well) made the point that Boyd is more suited to marking the ball as a ruckman, as it's generally down the line, higher in the air type ball movement, rather than the hard leading, soft hands in front that's required as a genuine key forward. FWIW, he also thinks Boyd will be a ruck/forward hybrid rather than the top banana KPF.

[bornadog]

It really doesn't matter who the number 1 ruckman is. Bevo doesn't care about that, he has a game plan that involves winning contested possession, winning at Stoppages. We now have two ruckman who can play forward and who can contest around the ground. Tom is still learning his craft and getting better every week.

Roughie will be back in the next few weeks and will combine with Boyd in the duel role. Forget about the reasons why we're recruited Tom, those plans changed when Bevo was appointed.

[GVGjr]

You know I respect Dalrymple but he wouldn't be the first recruiter to overrate a junior who dominated smaller opponents. I mean, what else do you expect him to say?

Boyds arrival at the club had little to do with Dalrymple so why dismiss his thoughts on Boyd being a key forward now?
His job is to assess players value and a few years later I think I'd give him enough credit to suggest this isn't a recruiter who overrated a junior key forward and feels like he still needs to defend it.

He could have offered up that 'players need to be versatile' but didn't.

[bulldogtragic]

And I'm happy to side with the reigning premiership coach

True. To be fair you're siding with the first half of Bevo's comments in the presser last week. Bevo said Tom's a ruckman, but may still become a dangerous KPF into the future. So Bevo hasn't written him off as a KPF. Bevo also is a part of a MC that's not selecting other ruckman, so he's seeing our ruck situation/selection through that prism. As Dalrymple said in the interview, he doesn't go to games each week and get taken in with the emotion of winning and losing, but in watching players intently. Dal's watched Tom for 7-8 years you'd imagine, and has no vested interest in match day stuff or in game strategies/positioning. 17 of the 22 premiership players have had Dalrymple's immediate involvement in coming to the club, so he knows these players and their games intently. If he says that Tom is only 21 and we need to give him opportunities and time to develop into the commanding KPF he will become, maybe we should give him the opportunities and time to develop. Tom playing as the solo ruck in most of our games this year, isn't giving him time up forward or the opportunities to learn by doing. What will be, will be. But stamping his papers or highlighting lower than ideal stats, because he's been rucking solo is in my view harsh on a 21 year old.

[GVGjr]

You said Boyd is 'average ruckman and that might be stretching things'.

So in response to me asking the question "Can you show we one post where I have apparently said hit outs are the measure of the modern day ruckman and that I have applied them to Tom Boyd?"

The above is what you have drawn your initial, and now I think proven to be an incorrect, conclusion from?

OK, I'll move on but it's going to be difficult to have good debate if this is how you are interpreting my responses.

Incorrect. We have a perfectly healthy ruckman with AFL experience toiling away in the VFL. We also had one on the list last year but decided not to keep him on, likely because when we rated our list needs, Boyd was considered a ruck option.

So I offer up "The only reason he is being used primarily in the ruck this season is because Roughead is injured and we didn't close other deals for ruckman we were interested in. We started the season with the view that Roughead would ruck the majority of game time and that Cloke would play alongside of Boyd as the key forwards"


And you refer to Campbell

Yep, time to move on

[comrade]

So in response to me asking the question "Can you show we one post where I have apparently said hit outs are the measure of the modern day ruckman and that I have applied them to Tom Boyd?"

The above is what you have drawn your initial, and now I think proven to be an incorrect, conclusion from?

OK, I'll move on but it's going to be difficult to have good debate if this is how you are interpreting my responses.

So on what are you basing your opinion that he's a below average ruck/forward?

So I offer up "The only reason he is being used primarily in the ruck this season is because Roughead is injured and we didn't close other deals for ruckman we were interested in. We started the season with the view that Roughead would ruck the majority of game time and that Cloke would play alongside of Boyd as the key forwards"


And you refer to Campbell

Yep, time to move on

I think your assumption is completely incorrect that Boyd would play alongside Cloke as a key forward only. And the evidence is pretty definitive. I think he was always earmarked for the dual ruck/forward role and is considered part of our ruck line up, hence why we moved Minson on. If he was capable of being a difference making key forward, would we not play Campbell in the ruck and let Boyd do his thing up forward (especially given our goal kicking woes)? Or are you suggesting that the below average ruck version of Boyd is better than a combination of Campbell rucking & Boyd up forward?

You can't have it both ways.

[Doc26]

Using our valuable first round selection on a pure elite mobile ruck prospect in English last year might indicate where Dal and Bevo, assuming they were on the same page, see TBoyd's future.

[Danny the snakeman]

Because he is in the ruck where the ball is, not where the ball is going.

Tell that to Sandilands, he must of missed that bit.

[comrade]

I will have the chance to ask a few at the club why we appear to be giving up on Boyd as a forward and I will be interested in their responses.

Any further developments on this, GVG?

[Jeanette54]

In Tom's defence I am not sure just how good Tom Hawkins' hands would be if he had to ruck all day, and then try to pack mark kicks bombed into the forward line where he is considered to be resting.

Tomahawks mode is make an effort, take the kick, and sod off to take a rest on the pine. The same could be said for most key forwards, with the exception of Saint Nick.

Bevo is asking a lot of young Tom at the moment, and he is no doubt doing his best to deliver.

I also believe that there has been significant improvement in both his ruck work and inside competitiveness this season. He may not have hands quite as quick as Libba's, but he is improving week by week.

[boydogs]

Which of our missing forwards apart from Dickson is a reliable shot for goal?
Crameri? Stringer? Cloke? I'd prefer not to have any of those kicking for my life from 30-40 out.

The shots we've missed haven't predominantly been shots from the pocket or right on 50. Theres a good portion across a wide spread of players from vety gettable shots.

Tom Boyd & Stringer have good career records, but the point is good forwards leading to good positions and taking inside 50 marks makes a big difference to your goals to behinds ratio. It's not just Tory Dickson's kicking action that has created his incredible goalkicking record, it's that he leads to areas he knows he can kick straight from. Contrast with McLean, Dunkley, Dahlhaus throwing the ball on the boot in congestion to register scores

[boydogs]

In Tom's defence I am not sure just how good Tom Hawkins' hands would be if he had to ruck all day, and then try to pack mark kicks bombed into the forward line where he is considered to be resting

Tom's got a lot of work to do with his weight, strength and fitness. GWS bulked him up enormously and it took him 2 years to remodel his body with us. He's developing his fitness in the ruck which has come a long way, but he still comments that he can't attack the ball with vigour when playing forward given the minutes he is spending in the ruck. He has also had shoulder troubles which affects marking but also strength, it's notoriously hard to hit the gym when your shoulders are buggered

Give him 2017 playing big ruck minutes, an injury free preseason in the gym and see in 2018 if he is more of a forward threat