Aussies v Pakistan in England

[ledge]

Will Ponting learn to take spinners to India?
Will Ponting ever have a 3rd man?

[chef]

Originally Posted by comrade

I'm firmly aboard the "P*** OFF NORTH" bandwagon (with you driving).

Surely a loss to the Pakis must be catalyst for a change.

Can I ride shotgun?

[lemmon]

Smithy can belt the cover off the thing, his second innings knock was fantastic. Agree with dropping North, simply not up too test level I would be tempted to move Haddin to 6, Smith to 7 drop North and Hauritz comes back in. Gives us too genuine allrounders in Smith and Watson which we need with Johnson's continued poor form.

[GVGjr]

Originally Posted by lemmon

Smithy can belt the cover off the thing, his second innings knock was fantastic. Agree with dropping North, simply not up too test level I would be tempted to move Haddin to 6, Smith to 7 drop North and Hauritz comes back in. Gives us too genuine allrounders in Smith and Watson which we need with Johnson's continued poor form.

Smith looks technically flawed to me and better suited to throwing the bat around in the shorter forms of the game. He will get a lot better but I wouldn't trust his batting. In 3 of his 4 innings he hardly did a thing.

Can we really weaken the batting by moving Haddin up the order and going in with just 5 specialists? 4 bowlers with support from Watson should be more than enough.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Originally Posted by lemmon

Smithy can belt the cover off the thing, his second innings knock was fantastic. Agree with dropping North, simply not up too test level I would be tempted to move Haddin to 6, Smith to 7 drop North and Hauritz comes back in. Gives us too genuine allrounders in Smith and Watson which we need with Johnson's continued poor form.

Why wouldn't you just drop Johnson?

Watson can bowl 1st change, play the 2nd spinner.

[lemmon]

Originally Posted by GVGjr

Smith looks technically flawed to me and better suited to throwing the bat around in the shorter forms of the game. He will get a lot better but I wouldn't trust his batting. In 3 of his 4 innings he hardly did a thing.

Can we really weaken the batting by moving Haddin up the order and going in with just 5 specialists? 4 bowlers with support from Watson should be more than enough.

Hes averaged around the 60 mark for NSW scoring 100's consistently. Not only has he shown an ability to slog at the end but he has come in during pressure situations and managed to rebuild an innings, technically he's not great but he does play the conventional shots very well and has a wonderful eye. He was only really troubled by the spin of Kaneria early in his innings during his first couple of knocks but I think when he gained the confidence to come down the pitch he played him very well.

An attack of a largely untested Bollinger and Hilfenhaus, a sporadic and inconsistent Johnson, a guy in Hauritz who has improved but is harldy a world beater and a Watson who will struggle when the ball isnt swinging doesnt fill me with confidence.

[lemmon]

Originally Posted by Sockeye Salmon

Why wouldn't you just drop Johnson?

Watson can bowl 1st change, play the 2nd spinner.

North has to go, simply not up to it his averaged has dropped below 40 and rarely scores runs when the team requires them most, he's essentially 31 year old dead weight. An attack of Bollinger, Hilf, Watson, Smith and Hauri seems particularly frail to me.
Bolli struggled in England and is untested against quality
Hilf is a quality performer, no doubt but Im not sure he is capable of leading the attack
Watson was good when the ball was swinging but I fear will be taken to task against quality opposition on a batting strio
Hauri has improved decidedly but is no world beater
Smith has potential but his first class bowling record remains.

Johnson has been pitiful but is a wicketaker and what he did against the Saffers was remarkable, I think we need him to lead the attack.

[GVGjr]

Originally Posted by lemmon

Hes averaged around the 60 mark for NSW scoring 100's consistently. Not only has he shown an ability to slog at the end but he has come in during pressure situations and managed to rebuild an innings, technically he's not great but he does play the conventional shots very well and has a wonderful eye. He was only really troubled by the spin of Kaneria early in his innings during his first couple of knocks but I think when he gained the confidence to come down the pitch he played him very well.

An attack of a largely untested Bollinger and Hilfenhaus, a sporadic and inconsistent Johnson, a guy in Hauritz who has improved but is harldy a world beater and a Watson who will struggle when the ball isnt swinging doesnt fill me with confidence.

I'm not sure I get this logic.
- You are saying Haddin at 6 so he is a better batsman than Smith because you want Smith at 7. What does Haddin average in test cricket? I think it is under 40 which isn't good enough for a specialist batsman.
- You are obviously concerned about the bowling so the remedy is to have 5 bowlers plus Watson although Smith hasn't shown anything to suggest that he can take good test wickets. Throwing more average bowlers into the side won't improve anything.

I would look at getting 6 specialist bastman with one of them them being Watson, Haddin at 7 and then 4 bowlers. Hopefully Siddle will be back to strengthen the attack.

[hujsh]

Originally Posted by lemmon

North has to go, simply not up to it his averaged has dropped below 40 and rarely scores runs when the team requires them most, he's essentially 31 year old dead weight. An attack of Bollinger, Hilf, Watson, Smith and Hauri seems particularly frail to me.
Bolli struggled in England and is untested against quality
Hilf is a quality performer, no doubt but Im not sure he is capable of leading the attack
Watson was good when the ball was swinging but I fear will be taken to task against quality opposition on a batting strio
Hauri has improved decidedly but is no world beater
Smith has potential but his first class bowling record remains.

Johnson has been pitiful but is a wicketaker and what he did against the Saffers was remarkable, I think we need him to lead the attack.

Possibly but I remember Watson doing fairly well last time we went to India.

[GVGjr]

Originally Posted by hujsh

Possibly but I remember Watson doing fairly well last time we went to India.

Against India at their home grounds it would be tempting to use him as the 3 paceman with 2 spinners in the side. I would have a look at O'Keefe as one of the spinners alongside of Hauritz

[chef]

Originally Posted by GVGjr

I'm not sure I get this logic.
- You are saying Haddin at 6 so he is a better batsman than Smith because you want Smith at 7. What does Haddin average in test cricket? I think it is under 40 which isn't good enough for a specialist batsman.
- You are obviously concerned about the bowling so the remedy is to have 5 bowlers plus Watson although Smith hasn't shown anything to suggest that he can take good test wickets. Throwing more average bowlers into the side won't improve anything.

I would look at getting 6 specialist bastman with one of them them being Watson, Haddin at 7 and then 4 bowlers. Hopefully Siddle will be back to strengthen the attack.

I agree with this. I would love to see Usman Khawaja come in at number six to do a bit of an apprenticeship before he takes over from Ponting at first drop. I don't think Smith is ever going to be a world class 'leggie'(but I would love to be wrong) at test level, but he could become a very handy allrounder.

[GVGjr]

Originally Posted by chef

I agree with this. I would love to see Usman Khawaja come in at number six to do a bit of an apprenticeship before he takes over from Ponting at first drop. I don't think Smith is ever going to be a world class 'leggie'(but I would love to be wrong) at test level, but he could become a very handy allrounder.

Right at this moment Smith's best chance is being the 2nd spinner against sub-continent teams. The problem for him is that our batting line-up is too inconsistent. If you had 5 batsman firing then you could have him at 6 or even 7 but he will have little runs to bowl with the way the team is batting at the moment and he will need a lot of run because he isn't the tightest bowler around.

I think he is a great prospect but if he can't hold down number 6 in the batting order it's just hard to justify his spot.

How good is Khawaja? He is getting talked up but is he ready for test cricket?

[lemmon]

Originally Posted by GVGjr

I'm not sure I get this logic.
- You are saying Haddin at 6 so he is a better batsman than Smith because you want Smith at 7. What does Haddin average in test cricket? I think it is under 40 which isn't good enough for a specialist batsman.
- You are obviously concerned about the bowling so the remedy is to have 5 bowlers plus Watson although Smith hasn't shown anything to suggest that he can take good test wickets. Throwing more average bowlers into the side won't improve anything.

I would look at getting 6 specialist bastman with one of them them being Watson, Haddin at 7 and then 4 bowlers. Hopefully Siddle will be back to strengthen the attack.

Splitting hairs regarding whether he comes in at 6 or 7, 7 may help protect him a touch more though. I believe he is the batting equal of North and probably exceeds both White and Khawaja on talent, I'd have no problems with him at 6 if that is what it takes.

[lemmon]

Originally Posted by chef

I agree with this. I would love to see Usman Khawaja come in at number six to do a bit of an apprenticeship before he takes over from Ponting at first drop. I don't think Smith is ever going to be a world class 'leggie'(but I would love to be wrong) at test level, but he could become a very handy allrounder.

We tend to favour agressive number 6's who can score hundreds with the tail or bat for a decleration, Khawjha (sp?) has a fantatstic technique but tends to be a more circumspect batsmen, may run out of time a bit if he gets stuck with the tail.

[GVGjr]

Originally Posted by lemmon

Splitting hairs regarding whether he comes in at 6 or 7, 7 may help protect him a touch more though. I believe he is the batting equal of North and probably exceeds both White and Khawaja on talent, I'd have no problems with him at 6 if that is what it takes.

I think it's important to assess his batting prowess and if you think Haddin is a better option at 6 then Smith just isn't ready.

I don't think he currently has the technique to hold down the number 6 spot. To me White is a superior batsman and I'd think there is a few others with stronger batting claims than Smith.
Move Rogers to the top of the order and Watson at 5 or 6 would strengthen the team more that having Smith at 6.
I'd have Smith in the mix with a host of players including Marsh, Klinger, Hughes, White, Khawaja and Rogers but he would be low in that pecking order.

[lemmon]

Originally Posted by GVGjr

I think it's important to assess his batting prowess and if you think Haddin is a better option at 6 then Smith just isn't ready.

I don't think he currently has the technique to hold down the number 6 spot. To me White is a superior batsman and I'd think there is a few others with stronger batting claims than Smith.
Move Rogers to the top of the order and Watson at 5 or 6 would strengthen the team more that having Smith at 6.
I'd have Smith in the mix with a host of players including Marsh, Klinger, Hughes, White, Khawaja and Rogers but he would be low in that pecking order.

In all honesty I rate Smith tremendously highly, I can see him amassing a batting record similiar to that of a guy like Gilchrist which is a massive ask in itself. The real variable with him is the way in which his bowling goes, it would be a shame to see him go the same way as White and have it fall by the way side. By batting him at 7 we reinforce that his bowling must remain a priority, if he bats in the top 6 I think it is too easy to simply fall back on your batting and tail off with the bowling. I would much rather have a guy who averages 42-44 with the bat and sub 28 with the ball then a guy who averages 49+ with the bat and bowls occasionally.

Im not sure any of the guys you have mentioned could do a greatly improved job to be honest, Klinger and Rogers may be positive for a few seasons but are still 30+ and Smith matched them on performance in the shield last year. The other guy who should come into the setup is Khajwa but 6 isnt his spot, he's more of a crafter and I think the selectors prefer an explosive bat at 6.

[GVGjr]

Originally Posted by lemmon

In all honesty I rate Smith tremendously highly, I can see him amassing a batting record similiar to that of a guy like Gilchrist which is a massive ask in itself. The real variable with him is the way in which his bowling goes, it would be a shame to see him go the same way as White and have it fall by the way side. By batting him at 7 we reinforce that his bowling must remain a priority, if he bats in the top 6 I think it is too easy to simply fall back on your batting and tail off with the bowling. I would much rather have a guy who averages 42-44 with the bat and sub 28 with the ball then a guy who averages 49+ with the bat and bowls occasionally.

I think you are rating his potential more so than his results. I'm not knocking his potential in the slightest but his batting technique just isn't ready and lets face it if Australia doesn't amass big scores it won't give his bowling the best chance of succeeding. He needs to be able to buy his wickets and he might not have the runs to play with. He bowled OK against Pakistan but not enough to say he is ready to be played as the primary spinner.

In years gone by when Australia had better batting, you could slot him in at 6 but Ponting and Hussey are being carried and Clarke has been a touch inconsistent probably due to some injuries. Smith threw the bat around and he got a big score but he often played the ball a long from his pads and just chanced his arm. It was more of a one day innings than a test performance.
Perhaps if we didn't have Watson the case for Smith would be stronger but if he bats at 6 or even 7 with Watson in the side he won't get enough of the bowling to keep that improving and he's not ready yet to be the number 1 spinner.

[lemmon]

Very fair points GVG and Im not pushing for him to be our primary spinner, Hauritz has improved remarkably and fully deserves his spot. In regards to rating his potential rather then results are your referring to his batting or bowling? I think his batting record speaks for itself and to put it plainly North must be moved on, Smith performed well with the bat last year and his bowling puts him ahead of the competition in my books.

I get the feeling you would prefer Watson to move to 6 and Rogers to step into the opening slot, something I would support if the name Rogers is switched to the name Hughes.