Forward line 2012

[Go_Dogs]

What are peoples thoughts on how our forward structure will set up next year? Who will be the permanent fixtures and who else may rotate through?

Jones is being groomed to play CHF.
It appears Panos will get a crack at playing FF, Grant may be another option - or could we see the return of a few lead up small/medium sized players?
Dahlhaus will spend a bit of time forward, but I expect he'll spend more time further afield this year too.
Cooney may spend quite a bit of time forward.
Gia and Sherman will play forward too.
Vez and Dickson may also feature.
Higgins and Murphy may spend varying time forward.
DJ and Hooper may also get their chances.

On paper, my guess is something like:

HF: Grant, Jones, Giansiracusa
F: Cooney, Panos, Dahlhaus

It will be interesting to see how many forwards we play in our forward structure in whatever the new plan may be. At a guess, a structure like the one above would allow us 3 marking targets and a quick, crumbing players as part of the forward structure (ie. One of Jones/Grant, plus Panos and Cooney as a medium sized target, Dahlhaus as the nippy small forward). That would allow Gia to play as an extra mid and one of Jones/Grant to really push up hard further afield to create an option coming out of defence and through the midfield.

The one thing that strikes me is we have a few small/medium types to rotate through. Between Roughead and perhaps Lake also rotating through at times we have a few talls who can supplement Jones, Panos and Grant - but we are going to be pretty reliant on these 3 talls, with their combined talents, to hold together the forward line.

Anyone got some ideas as to who may play up forward and how we may set up?

[LostDoggy]

The retirement of Hall leaves our forward line looking raw and inexperienced.

On a positive, Jones had a good year last year and looks like he could have a break out year this year. Grant has a couple of years in the system now and would have learnt a lot from Hall over the last two years. I have always thought he looks a bit lost out there at times so hopefully a new coach will rectify that. Panos has worked hard ever since he was picked as a rookie and has been elevated without playing a senior game which shows the coaches must think theres something there. Will be very interesting to see how his hard work will show through when he cracks a senior game (alot of people have his name as starting FF which is a big call).

My starting 6 is the same as yours except I have Higgins instead of Cooney (I'm unsure of where to play Cooney because we don't know the extent of the injury).

[the banker]

What about Roughead? Surely we will take 2 rucks in and sub one off at some stage?

Dahlhaus. Jones. Grant
Cooney. Panos. Roughead

Rotating gia, Sherman, vez, Dickson, Higgins, murphy


panos needs 40 goals, gia. 30, Sherman. 30, Cooney 30, grant 30 , dahlhaus 25, griff 20, jones 20, roughy 20

[AndrewP6]

What about Roughead? Surely we will take 2 rucks in and sub one off at some stage?

Dahlhaus. Jones. Grant
Cooney. Panos. Roughead

Rotating gia, Sherman, vez, Dickson, Higgins, murphy


panos needs 40 goals, gia. 30, Sherman. 30, Cooney 30, grant 30 , dahlhaus 25, griff 20, jones 20, roughy 20


Cooney just needs to stay on the park. If he can do that, he'll add benefit. Not sure 30 is a realistic target. If I'm not mistaken, he's only done it once before.

[the banker]

Cooney just needs to stay on the park. If he can do that, he'll add benefit. Not sure 30 is a realistic target. If I'm not mistaken, he's only done it once before.

Target only if he is played as semi permanent forward. Stevie J role.

[AndrewP6]

Target only if he is played as semi permanent forward. Stevie J role.

Fair enough.

[Sockeye Salmon]

panos needs 40 goals

If Panos kicks 40 goals there will be the opportunity to see my hairy backside in Bourke St.

The boy needs to
1 - get a game
2 - get a kick
3 - worry about kicking 1 goal.

He hasn't kicked 40 VFL goals.


Our forward line is rooted and the reason we will finish about 14th.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Our forward line is rooted and the reason we will finish about 14th.

Exactly where I've got us finishing.

I think we should definitely try and build a structure for the future though, so I hope we put faith in a Panos/Grant/Jones combo.

[jeemak]

I think Grant and Jones will alternate between low and high. Both are quick enough (particularly Grant) and have attributes that can expose some players on the lead, but each of them isn't strong enough to hold down FF against the bigger backs full time.

Vez, if he manages to have a good preseason will be fit enough to hold down a half forward role. And Gia will be a forward pocket and half forward no questions asked.

Dahl will take a forward pocket role, and I don't expect him to play much time up the ground for another year at least.

Higgins will rotate through the midfield, and spend a lot of time forward because he can finish well and we don't have much class there beyond Gia at this point. He might also get some time down back.

Due to the sub, I expect the rest of the forward roles will be taken by Minson, Roughead, Panos, Murphy, Sherman, DJ, Cooney and Dickson.

I think due to the loss of Hall we're going to put our most obvious forward players in attacking roles at the start of the year, because we're going to struggle to score if we don't.

We could try and get clever by putting more defensively minded players there to stop the opposition from rebounding quickly and effectively, but that isn't really going to put the score on the board.

[LostDoggy]

If Panos kicks 40 goals there will be the opportunity to see my hairy backside in Bourke St.

The boy needs to
1 - get a game
2 - get a kick
3 - worry about kicking 1 goal.

He hasn't kicked 40 VFL goals.


Our forward line is rooted and the reason we will finish about 14th.

Agree. I don't see him just stepping in and contributing two goals per game. Realistic figure would be mid to high 20's. Anythign else would be a massive bonus for a first year AFL player, mature-aged or not.

[Dazza]

How are we setting up in training? Is Panos being the main target?

I was hoping Grant could play the deep leading forward role. Jones the bomb in hope role (including up the ground on the wings).

How's Panos' contested marking? I hear he's a little slow so he better have good hands if he wants the #1 role.

It will be interesting. Struggling to see where our goals are going to come from though.

[Swoop]

Jones the bomb in hope role (including up the ground on the wings).

Does this role still exist?

[LostDoggy]

The good thing about our talls (Jones and Grant) is that they are both very quick.

I think we need to try and open up our forward line as much as possible and take advantage of our pace we have in the forward half. If we set up with Jones, Grant, Dahlhaus, Sherman/Cooney Starting around the half forward line with Panos/Roughy/Minno starting at FF alone.

Using the long kick over the top and running back into space would be our best hope. Hopefully Macca can get all our forwards to work together and pressure once the ball goes to ground. We have the pace to cause turnovers, but it's just a question if we have the mindset.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

How's Panos' contested marking? I hear he's a little slow so he better have good hands if he wants the #1 role.

Panos has great hands, but he plays a little similar to Hall in that he prefers to mark on the lead, rather than in a pack. He reads the play very well and uses his body well in the one on one contests.

Probably the most interesting prospect heading into 2012 IMO. He'll need time to adjust and will have issues (creating separation) but he's met all challenges so far.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Cooney just needs to stay on the park. If he can do that, he'll add benefit. Not sure 30 is a realistic target. If I'm not mistaken, he's only done it once before.

We need the speed of Cooney in the midfield if his knee is sound enough. Roughead gives us another marking option resting up forward. Jones was a big disappointment last year as was Higgins until he was moved into defence. Panos certainly looks to be our best option at FF and I am aware thatBMcC has a high opinion of him.
Murphy at some stage will go forward but at this stage of his career looks more comfortable at half back.

[immortalmike]

We need the speed of Cooney in the midfield if his knee is sound enough. Roughead gives us another marking option resting up forward. Jones was a big disappointment last year as was Higgins until he was moved into defence. Panos certainly looks to be our best option at FF and I am aware thatBMcC has a high opinion of him.
Murphy at some stage will go forward but at this stage of his career looks more comfortable at half back.

I hope you mean Grant because Jones (along with Dahlhaus) was one of the few shining lights for our side last year.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I hope you mean Grant because Jones (along with Dahlhaus) was one of the few shining lights for our side last year.

My mistake, apologies. Thanks for picking it up. I meant Grant.

[Remi Moses]

For how great Barry was,our forward half went backwards with him there.
Panos is a work in progress and needs experience.Personally prefer the chaotic Forward half,although the big forward wins big finals.

[GVGjr]

Should Murphy be looked at as a forward this year given we have such an inexperienced group?
I think they need someone there who can lead the others and Murphy could do that role for us.

[Go_Dogs]

Should Murphy be looked at as a forward this year given we have such an inexperienced group?
I think they need someone there who can lead the others and Murphy could do that role for us.

Good point and worthy of strong consideration. I still see him spending the majority of his time down back, however assuming his body is able to perform with continuity in the forward line, the suggestion has a lot of merit.

[Ghost Dog]

Good point and worthy of strong consideration. I still see him spending the majority of his time down back, however assuming his body is able to perform with continuity in the forward line, the suggestion has a lot of merit.

Maybe. I remember Paul Roos saying he always felt a sense of relief when Bob Murphy was played at half back. Then again, need to suffer some pain to develop kids in fw roles.
Bob also won't be able to run and chase as much.

[Mantis]

Should Murphy be looked at as a forward this year given we have such an inexperienced group?
I think they need someone there who can lead the others and Murphy could do that role for us.

Who will fill his role across HB?

We look a little thin down there too.

[Go_Dogs]

Who will fill his role across HB?

We look a little thin down there too.

I'm saving the back line thread for last ;)

We've always needed 2 Murphy's and this year will be no exception. Ultimately the form of others is likely to dictate where we play Murph and whether we can afford to swing him around a bit.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Good point and worthy of strong consideration. I still see him spending the majority of his time down back, however assuming his body is able to perform with continuity in the forward line, the suggestion has a lot of merit.

Murphy's undoubted class could make him our best forward but at what cost?Lake,Morris and Hargrave all returning from injuries gives a certain vulnerability down back. We probably need two Murphys. My inclination is that he will still be best suited in defense.

[GVGjr]

Who will fill his role across HB?

We look a little thin down there too.

We do look thin back there but we do have a number of experienced players whereas the forward line might be relying on just Giansiracusa to provide direction.

Maybe Higgins is the answer to replacing Murphy as a defender.

[GVGjr]

Murphy's undoubted class could make him our best forward but at what cost?Lake,Morris and Hargrave all returning from injuries gives a certain vulnerability down back. We probably need two Murphys. My inclination is that he will still be best suited in defense.

Whilst I agree he is best suited to defense we need him more in the forward line. I don't think Giansiracusa and say Sherman can provide the necessary leadership.

[jeemak]

We do look thin back there but we do have a number of experienced players whereas the forward line might be relying on just Giansiracusa to provide direction.

Maybe Higgins is the answer to replacing Murphy as a defender.

I don't think Higgins out of defense will take us forward as a team. If he's able to attain some continuity he will become a two goals a game forward that can play midfield to provide valuable resting time for others.

I've always said Murphy is in the top handful of CHF's in the league, and we move the ball so much better when he's leading at the footy (or we did when we had Cooney fit and creating run and Gilbee hitting targets).

Perhaps Grant and Jones will take a big step forward and present very well for us this year, bit I'm not prepared to count on that.

[the banker]

If Panos kicks 40 goals there will be the opportunity to see my hairy backside in Bourke St.

The boy needs to
1 - get a game
2 - get a kick
3 - worry about kicking 1 goal.

He hasn't kicked 40 VFL goals.


Our forward line is rooted and the reason we will finish about 14th.

Fair enough my points were what needs to happen not what will happen. Throw Panos out put Grant
there and bring in one if the others. More what the positions need to produce rather than the players.
Then again given your hairy arse threat..I probably wouldn't play Panos...

[Hotdog60]

My only concern is his body playing forward, it may shorten his career a year or two. What role is Cooney going to play with his troubled knee? Would he take the role from Murph across half back were he can hit it and run in more of a straight line. Or does Cooney become that experienced HF in a lead up role.

[jeemak]

My only concern is his body playing forward, it may shorten his career a year or two. What role is Cooney going to play with his troubled knee? Would he take the role from Murph across half back were he can hit it and run in more of a straight line. Or does Cooney become that experienced HF in a lead up role.

Cooney will play the majority of his football in the midfield I think. He's too good in close winning the ball, and if his game is going to change it will be more along the way Judd's has rather than going forward.

[The Underdog]

We do look thin back there but we do have a number of experienced players whereas the forward line might be relying on just Giansiracusa to provide direction.

Maybe Higgins is the answer to replacing Murphy as a defender.

Does Higgins "pace" preclude a move down back? I think it becomes difficult to find a match-up that can't be exploited by the opposition. in theory he has the nous and foot skills to do it but the injuries he's suffered have had an effect on him.

[Dry Rot]

If Panos kicks 40 goals there will be the opportunity to see my hairy backside in Bourke St.



I suspect that you will now have many of us quietly rooting for the defender playing on Panos during the season. ;)

[DragzLS1]

Murphy and Higgins will rotate
Cooney and Sherman may rotate a bit aswell.?

Not liking all the injuries really starting to concern me and how we maintain these players will be interesting. Cant wait for this season to start already cmon been watching 2011 replays for too long!

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Whilst I agree he is best suited to defense we need him more in the forward line. I don't think Giansiracusa and say Sherman can provide the necessary leadership.

I agree with your thoughts on Gia and Sherman,which adds support to your argument to move Murph forward to add class,maturity and leadership to an inexperienced attack.Using Cooney for longer periods forward could be a bonus as well.

[Mantis]

I agree with your thoughts on Gia and Sherman,which adds support to your argument to move Murph forward to add class,maturity and leadership to an inexperienced attack. Using Cooney for longer periods forward could be a bonus as well.

Using him in the midfield for longer periods will be an even bigger bonus.

Without him playing some half decent footy our midfield looks very light on.

[stefoid]

I reckon its the way the ball gets to the forward line that is more important than who gets on the end of it. Even the best forwards in the league struggle when the ball comes in slow and poorly.

For that reason Id rather see Murph play back - theres no one Id rather see carrying the ball from half back.

[Happy Days]

Maybe Higgins is the answer to replacing Murphy as a defender.

Didn't Craig Bird kick 4 on him when he was down back this year?

No thanks.

[jeemak]

I reckon its the way the ball gets to the forward line that is more important than who gets on the end of it. Even the best forwards in the league struggle when the ball comes in slow and poorly.

For that reason Id rather see Murph play back - theres no one Id rather see carrying the ball from half back.

But with the way Murphy plays half forward it's not as if he's much closer than 1.5-2 kicks to goal anyway, which is an area I think we'll struggle (particularly on the bigger grounds) to take possession of the ball and move it further forward without a decent target.

A fit Lake and Hargrave takes a lot of pressure off us and our need to use players like Murphy to work their way through traffic from defense, as they have sure hands and are decisive in their forward movement. If we didn't lose Harbrow we'd be in such a better position in terms of Murph presenting off half forward.

[the banker]

Maybe a long way off, but does anyone see potential in Wallis developing into a back half player releasing Murphy and or Picken?

[Dancin' Douggy]

If J. Grant doesn't start kicking goals I see him as a perfect candidate to go to half back

[Mantis]

Maybe a long way off, but does anyone see potential in Wallis developing into a back half player releasing Murphy and or Picken?

I don't see it. Wallis does his best work around the ball.

[aker39]

If J. Grant doesn't start kicking goals I see him as a perfect candidate to go to half back

at Williamstown

[Desipura]

If J. Grant doesn't start kicking goals I see him as a perfect candidate to go to half back I tihnk he need to lift his intensity otherwise he will not be at the club in 12 months. B Mac does not like players who are lazy and hard at the ball, hates the word X factor when some refer to players with an ability of doing something out of the ordinary, is very much into consistency of effort.

[stefoid]

But with the way Murphy plays half forward it's not as if he's much closer than 1.5-2 kicks to goal anyway, which is an area I think we'll struggle (particularly on the bigger grounds) to take possession of the ball and move it further forward without a decent target.

A fit Lake and Hargrave takes a lot of pressure off us and our need to use players like Murphy to work their way through traffic from defense, as they have sure hands and are decisive in their forward movement. If we didn't lose Harbrow we'd be in such a better position in terms of Murph presenting off half forward.

Hargrave and Lake are OK in a bit of space, but under a forward press, Murph is the only one I back at this stage to run 20m with the ball, evading blokes coming at him, and then spot someone up. Hargrave and Lake are much more likely to boot the thing 50m to nobody in particular in that situation.

Jones is our lead up CHF now. We will stop losing the ball across half forward so much when the midfield gains more composure -- which is exactly what BMac is focussing on.

I am totally on board with everything bmac is focussing on - winning the ball, using it under pressure, and applying defensive pressure. all of these things will automatically make our forward line more potent.

[Go_Dogs]

I don't see it. Wallis does his best work around the ball.

Care to elaborate on this one for me? From what we saw in 2011 he was often second to the ball, looks to kick short and sideways, has OK hands but not as clean as Libba. He works hard defensively and should become a good running player - but I think his skill set could be effective in a number of roles. We have better players who should be the prime movers in the midfield.

I could see Wallis playing off a flank. My preference would be off a forward flank playing a defensively minded game on an attacking defender or a shut down/tagging role as an extra midfielder.

[jeemak]

Hargrave and Lake are OK in a bit of space, but under a forward press, Murph is the only one I back at this stage to run 20m with the ball, evading blokes coming at him, and then spot someone up. Hargrave and Lake are much more likely to boot the thing 50m to nobody in particular in that situation.

Jones is our lead up CHF now. We will stop losing the ball across half forward so much when the midfield gains more composure -- which is exactly what BMac is focussing on.

I am totally on board with everything bmac is focussing on - winning the ball, using it under pressure, and applying defensive pressure. all of these things will automatically make our forward line more potent.

I guess I was trying to make the point that when we have Hargrave and Lake there, our ball winning ability is much better and we're able to clear the ball quicker without letting the opposition set the press up. Eade talked about the issues we faced last year in this area (lack of continuity in back 6), and I had to agree with him. The best way to beat the press is starve the opposition of opportunities to set it up by taking possession early and clearing effectively with lateral movement followed by a long kick.

Agree that nobody in our side let alone the league touches Murphy when it comes to being evasive and picking his way through the press.

You'll struggle to find a happier person than me if we can get Jones to play the leading CHF role effectively, but I'm not banking on it just yet as he has a lot of development in him. Having Murphy fulfill it on the bigger grounds might not be such a bad idea.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Care to elaborate on this one for me? From what we saw in 2011 he was often second to the ball, looks to kick short and sideways, has OK hands but not as clean as Libba. He works hard defensively and should become a good running player - but I think his skill set could be effective in a number of roles. We have better players who should be the prime movers in the midfield.

I could see Wallis playing off a flank. My preference would be off a forward flank playing a defensively minded game on an attacking defender or a shut down/tagging role as an extra midfielder.

Wallis must make it as a ball winner or he's in big trouble. He can't play back because his ball use isn't good enough.

A defensive forward is what you are right before you get delisted.

[jeemak]

Wallis must make it as a ball winner or he's in big trouble. He can't play back because his ball use isn't good enough.

A defensive forward is what you are right before you get delisted.

Agree that he needs to make it as a ball winner, but he's got a couple of years to prove his worth and with Cross and Boyd commanding two of the ball winning/grunt midfield positions for this year and the next he'll have to play a lot of two's football.

We expect a lot out of our first round draft picks, and rightly so, but we also need to give them time to develop their games.

He won't be a backman, he won't be a forward. He'll be an accumulator throughout his career, but he'll need to learn that role just like anyone else.

[LostDoggy]

Murphy in the forward line would be amazing, but unfortunately from what I remember with his knee problems is that it is better for him to be in the backline. Leading and then quickly turning around to move the ball forward is not good for his knee, thus it may greatly depend on his body as to how much we see him forward. I would love to see Grant take a step up and play that forward role for us, but I don't think he has the ability - maybe Macca can teach him, but I'm not sure how teachable it is. If we do play Bob forward I would like to think Easton could step into his role in the backline (provided he works hard on his kicking this summer). If we have a fit and firing Lake, Morris and Hargrave, then Easton doesn't necessarily have to be so focused on defence and will be a little more free to run the lines.

Also, I have concerns about playing Roughead in the forward line, purely based off these two YouTube videos below, he and Tutt had a goal kicking contest with Matthew Wade and Alex Keath from the Melbourne Stars (cricket)... its not pretty. If its anything to go by Roughy really needs to work on his goal kicking, and I can't say I can recall him ever looking too comfortable in front of goal.


kicking starts at about 1:34 in first video.

ypjV9YzOliU

MwJJEdFKNlU

[Dazza]

Haha shit. I could do better than a lot of those kicks. Bit of a worry.

[Maddog37]

Wallis must make it as a ball winner or he's in big trouble. He can't play back because his ball use isn't good enough.

A defensive forward is what you are right before you get delisted.

SS, no disrespect intended but this is absolute crap.

How you can even begin to suggest Wallis is on his way to being delisted is beyond me.

To me he is a Jobe Watson type that will need time to adjust to the pace and intensity. Once he does he will kill em either on ball or like his old man did.

Having said all that I acknowledge that my opinion is no more valid than yours at this stage.

[GVGjr]

Didn't Craig Bird kick 4 on him when he was down back this year?

No thanks.

So we write off players after one or two poor performances?

[Go_Dogs]

So we write off players after one or two poor performances?

Definitely not, but Higgins has a history of not having the right intent defensively. I think he improved a bit in this area last year, but its still not a strength.

That said, most sides do carry one or two players down back who aren't defensive superstars but can create going the other way. I see Higgins playing back this season, certainly for parts of games. Making sure there is a good match up for him will be important as some will get hold of him and kick multiple goals.



SS, no disrespect intended but this is absolute crap.

How you can even begin to suggest Wallis is on his way to being delisted is beyond me.

To me he is a Jobe Watson type that will need time to adjust to the pace and intensity. Once he does he will kill em either on ball or like his old man did.

I don't think SS was suggesting he be delisted, just that my suggestion of playing him (or anyone) as a defensive forward means that players time on the list is nearly over.

I agree with everyone that in the longer term he should develop into an inside mid who wins his own ball, but he's not going to move in-front of Boyd, Cross and Libba this year, and Smith will be another who plays a similar role.

I'm just keen to try some things with him so he can play a role this year. He works hard, he's good defensively, he like the hard stuff. Playing a more defensive role rather than a ball winning role could be his shot this season.

[Sockeye Salmon]

SS, no disrespect intended but this is absolute crap.

How you can even begin to suggest Wallis is on his way to being delisted is beyond me.

To me he is a Jobe Watson type that will need time to adjust to the pace and intensity. Once he does he will kill em either on ball or like his old man did.

Having said all that I acknowledge that my opinion is no more valid than yours at this stage.

As G16 mentioned I did not mean that Wallis was in the gun to be delisted. Any time you hear someone say that 'so-and-so' should play as a defensive forward it means he is crap and has failed everywhere else. FWIW, 'defensive forward doesn't exist.

The Jobe Watson comparison is a fair one, but I'm pretty sure you won't see Tim's boy playing as a defensive forward any time soon.

[Swoop]

I'm not sure if I'm alone but I have always seen Wallis to be a bit more of an outside player despite his size and lack of foot speed. One of his greatest assests is his ability to find himself on the end of a chain of posessions and as a junior he always had high receive numbers.

He probably has found the jump into AFL a lot harder than others as he doesn't have exceptional foot speed and that has made his transition tougher as he struggles to offer a point of difference to some of his teamates.

Long term I'd be hoping he'd develop into a Dane Swan type, someone who does all the basics really well and using his motor and football brain to be in the right spot.

[Go_Dogs]

I'm not sure if I'm alone but I have always seen Wallis to be a bit more of an outside player despite his size and lack of foot speed. One of his greatest assests is his ability to find himself on the end of a chain of posessions and as a junior he always had high receive numbers.

Agree with that. I'm basing my example on his game in the U/18's at Norwood Oval, but that day he worked really hard to run to position and create an option moving the ball forwards. I described him as a 'link man'.

As you suggest, I think he's found the transition really hard as he will need to build an elite AFL motor, which he doesn't have yet, to be effective in the style he played as a junior.

In my opinion he may struggle to command regular minutes in the midfield this year, but I think he offers enough with his hardness and defensive intent to play a role somewhere.

[the banker]

Can he develop into a defender. Quarterback style?

[Greystache]

Can he develop into a defender. Quarterback style?

I wouldn't have thought so.

His kicking and decision making are probably his biggest weakness at the moment, he tends to go sideways with the ball on most occasions, similar to Cross.

[LostDoggy]

I wouldn't have thought so.

His kicking and decision making are probably his biggest weakness at the moment, he tends to go sideways with the ball on most occasions, similar to Cross.


I thought Wallis was supposed to have elite decision-making. From what I've seen, he seems to know where to run and where to distribute, I think his tendency to go sideways is because he doesn't have much kicking depth or power and compensates for that. If he had a leg on him like Gilbee or Tutt, I would imagine his "decision-making" would improve.

[Greystache]

I thought Wallis was supposed to have elite decision-making. From what I've seen, he seems to know where to run and where to distribute, I think his tendency to go sideways is because he doesn't have much kicking depth or power and compensates for that. If he had a leg on him like Gilbee or Tutt, I would imagine his "decision-making" would improve.

Tom Liberatore's not a penetrating kick either but he's still able to hurt the opposition by foot by finding players in space using his vision and decision making strengths. You don't have to be able to drill the ball 60m flat to be a damaging kick, so long as you can find players by being clever.

Wallis is more an accumulator in a similar way Cross is.

[LostDoggy]

Unfortunately I see the 2012 forwardline watching most of the bulldog goals going over their head as Griff, Cooney, Howard etc slot 45m runners.

[LostDoggy]

Tom Liberatore's not a penetrating kick either but he's still able to hurt the opposition by foot by finding players in space using his vision and decision making strengths. You don't have to be able to drill the ball 60m flat to be a damaging kick, so long as you can find players by being clever.

Wallis is more an accumulator in a similar way Cross is.

I think you underrate Libbers kicking. Tom has a neat left foot thats better than average. IIRC, Libber won the Nathan Buckley kicking test at the draft camp.

I agree Wallis is an accumulater but I think his kicking is better than Cross. He should be targetting a Watson or Mitchell type level. Neither of whom are great kicks but not seen as a weakness (only recently in Jobes case). I very much like the Watson comparison actually. Came as a highly touted Father-Son, did not meet initial expectations due to kicking and speed, now ripping it up as captain and their key mid. Hope Wallis follows the same path.

[Greystache]

I think you underrate Libbers kicking. Tom has a neat left foot thats better than average. IIRC, Libber won the Nathan Buckley kicking test at the draft camp.

I agree Wallis is an accumulater but I think his kicking is better than Cross. He should be targetting a Watson or Mitchell type level. Neither of whom are great kicks but not seen as a weakness (only recently in Jobes case). I very much like the Watson comparison actually. Came as a highly touted Father-Son, did not meet initial expectations due to kicking and speed, now ripping it up as captain and their key mid. Hope Wallis follows the same path.

I'm not underating Libba's kicking. I'm actually using him as an example of how a player who's not a penetrating kick can still be a damaging player by foot. His hitting up of leading forwards last year was excellent

[jeemak]

I think you underrate Libbers kicking. Tom has a neat left foot thats better than average. IIRC, Libber won the Nathan Buckley kicking test at the draft camp.

I agree Wallis is an accumulater but I think his kicking is better than Cross. He should be targetting a Watson or Mitchell type level. Neither of whom are great kicks but not seen as a weakness (only recently in Jobes case). I very much like the Watson comparison actually. Came as a highly touted Father-Son, did not meet initial expectations due to kicking and speed, now ripping it up as captain and their key mid. Hope Wallis follows the same path.

If Wallis could get to a Mitchell standard on both sides then we'd have to be pretty happy with that.

I don't think we have too much to worry about with Wallis though. Some players, as other posters have stated, don't have clear attributes that assist them adjusting to AFL level immediately. Wallis will just have to work his bum off, kind of like Matthew Boyd who ended up going ok throughout his career.

[LostDoggy]

If Wallis could get to a Mitchell standard on both sides then we'd have to be pretty happy with that.

I don't think we have too much to worry about with Wallis though. Some players, as other posters have stated, don't have clear attributes that assist them adjusting to AFL level immediately. Wallis will just have to work his bum off, kind of like Matthew Boyd who ended up going ok throughout his career.

Boydy cost us a rookie pick. Him turning out to be elite was a bonus. Wallis was a first-rounder. If he doesn't turn out to be elite (or close to it) it would be a disappointment. Having said that, I'm with you in being pretty confident that he'll make it: attitude seemed to be the main deterrent to his development in his first year, but he should settle down and start learning better this year. He already has a fantastic footy brain, which is his stand-out attribute, once he gets used to the game at senior level he'll start becoming pretty influential. He's been compared to Jobe Watson on this thread, but I think Libba is more Watson, and Wallis actually has more of a James Hird vibe about him (another player who didn't have any stand-out physical attributes other than a natural understanding of the game), once he builds his tank and starts taking responsibility for the outcome of games.

Re: Murph, he's a defender who will be swung forward at times for the rest of his career. He has 3-5 years left playing that role (at an elite level, mind you), he'll be retired with bung knees by the end of next year playing exclusively as a forward.

[Swoop]

I haven't heard about any attitude issues with Wallis previously Lantern, if anything I was led to believe he had a good attitude as was shown with the way he attacked his 1st preseason by pushing many more senior players.

What was wrong with his attitude?

[Desipura]

I haven't heard about any attitude issues with Wallis previously Lantern, if anything I was led to believe he had a good attitude as was shown with the way he attacked his 1st preseason by pushing many more senior players.

What was wrong with his attitude?
Im hearing he has a great attitude.

[LostDoggy]

Oh im just going off stuff said here on woof that he did have a bit of a big head upon joining, did find the step up a big one and probably expected to be given games or some such. Apologies if this is all wrong... like i said, it just sounded like first year blues that was never going to be a huge problem long term.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Oh im just going off stuff said here on woof that he did have a bit of a big head upon joining, did find the step up a big one and probably expected to be given games or some such. Apologies if this is all wrong... like i said, it just sounded like first year blues that was never going to be a huge problem long term.

I recall hearing that too.

My issue with Wallis is that he doesn't use the ball well at all -- even under no pressure he misses targets -- and I've seen him fumble too much for my liking.

Not writing him off, but I am far from convinced.

[bornadog]

I recall hearing that too.

My issue with Wallis is that he doesn't use the ball well at all -- even under no pressure he misses targets -- and I've seen him fumble too much for my liking.

Not writing him off, but I am far from convinced.

19 years old, plenty of time to come to terms with the pace of the game.

[KT31]

I recall hearing that too.

My issue with Wallis is that he doesn't use the ball well at all -- even under no pressure he misses targets -- and I've seen him fumble too much for my liking.

Not writing him off, but I am far from convinced.

Wallis seems keen to improve from all reports and like mentioned previously, hopefully a case of first year expectations.(his and ours)
If we have a game plan that protects the ball carrier, giving them more time and confidence then Wallis and all players will have to improve with disposal.

[F'scary]

Good thread! Tried a reply once, not sure what happened so here I am rewriting my original.

Re Libba Jnr’s kicking: I agree with HKB, he’s a good penetrating kick. Greystache’s point about how he showed ability in hitting up targets is also correct imo. Actually, one of the things I liked best about him is that he appears to like to kick the ball which I think is good as we have a few players who look to handball first as it is.

Re Wallis Jnr: I think he looked pretty good for a first year player. Should be well worth the draft pick.
Re Panos, like a few others, e.g, Big Fish, the banker & Sockeye, I think he needs to show continued form in the VFL for 2012 before he cracks a game. Not really a first choice pick for a key forward role at the moment.

Re needing midfielders to provide goals (HairyMidget et al) – spot on. This was one of the hallmarks of our recent good years. I hope it continues, we have the players to supply goals from the midfield - Coon Dog, Griff, the Professor, The King (that’s right The King has come to Footscray, King Tutt that is), the Captain, etc.

My forward line for round 1:

HF: Dalhaus, Jones, Murphy
FF: Giansiracusa, Lake, Roughead

My reasoning: Dalhaus, Jones & Gia pick themselves. Murphy (agree with GVGjr, etc) – while he was AA off the half back flank in 2011, I reckon he is needed more up forward because that’s where we’re a bit thin. There are a few others who can cover on the half back line. Roughead – it seems to me that the Sub rule means that rucks need to be switched on the ground. Either you go with just one or swap in the forward pocket (just like the old days!) I think we need to play two rucks, partly to give us more physical presence on field. Lake – I read this suggestion from one of the 2011 assistant coaches and I like it. Lake is a big, mobile unit, rough and tumble with a good pair of hands. He adds the X factor a forward line needs. And we all know he likes a goal! Markovic has shown he can play full back.

Omissions: J Grant (per Dancin’ Dougy) – play him off half back flank, effectively a swap with Murphy. Grant seemed to be down on confidence last year, a swap to the back line would be just the tonic. King Tutt – I see him more as a rover / wingman.

In the mix: Big Ed Barlow – more X factor with this bloke but can someone tell me if he is back on the rookie list or is he a senior list player? Other small forwards: Hooper, Moles, Djerrkura, Vespremi could all press for regular games as forwards. The first three need to work on kicking for goal though. Hargrave (no s) – proven tough nut, gut busting, all round marking and running player who could be used as a half forward in a side that wants to be known as tough and unrelenting.

[The Coon Dog]

In the mix: Big Ed Barlow – more X factor with this bloke but can someone tell me if he is back on the rookie list or is he a senior list player?
Neither, he was delisted.

[F'scary]

Neither, he was delisted.

NNNnnnnnoooooooooooooooooooooo!!! :eek::(:mad:

[SlimPickens]

NNNnnnnnoooooooooooooooooooooo!!! :eek::(:mad:

Any relation to Ed?

[F'scary]

Any relation to Ed?

HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT!:eek: He is a footballer of rare ability. I am completely shattered. How could they get it so wrong. I WANT TO KNOW: WHO'S RESPONSIBLE?!?:confused::mad:

[Remi Moses]

The problem with Barlow was he didn't fit a need.
What was he? KP? Midfield?He's a great size but just didn't fulfil any role.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

The problem with Barlow is that he was a spud.

[LostDoggy]

HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT!:eek: He is a footballer of rare ability. I am completely shattered. How could they get it so wrong. I WANT TO KNOW: WHO'S RESPONSIBLE?!?:confused::mad:

I agree with this comment. We have almost no players down the club now who resemble accountants.

[AndrewP6]

HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT!:eek: He is a footballer of rare ability.

Yes I agree. It is rare to find someone who is such a spud.

[BulldogBelle]

Tom Liberatore's not a penetrating kick either but he's still able to hurt the opposition by foot by finding players in space using his vision and decision making strengths. You don't have to be able to drill the ball 60m flat to be a damaging kick, so long as you can find players by being clever.

Wallis is more an accumulator in a similar way Cross is.



And Wallis needs to develop his tank and become an elite runner to become an elite player at AFL level

He also needs to understand exactly where to run to at what time

Another poster mentioned Dane Swan, who just keeps running all game, and due to his elite running skills he constantly finds space

[mjp]

My reasoning: Dalhaus, Jones & Gia pick themselves.


I disagree.

I think Gia picks himself. Jones is a developing tall who will probably be dropped due to form at least once this year. Likewise Dalhaus - he has only played a few games and we honestly don't know what we are going to get from him this year.

I don't think things are all doom and gloom - I just believe our improvement will come from having Lake available, from Cooney having a better understanding of his body and what it can achieve from week to week and from a modified game-plan that doesn't ask for the same level of kicking accuracy that was needed last season (playing to our strengths around the contest with Griffen, Boyd and Cooney).

All the hopes and dreams being placed on the shoulders of Dalhaus, Jones and even Panos who hasn't played a single game is crazy...we will improve because our better players play well enabling the others to shine in support - if we are counting on Jones to kick 80 goals then it is going to be a long season.

Oh yeah - Murphy has to play back.

[Before I Die]

All the hopes and dreams being placed on the shoulders of Dalhaus, Jones and even Panos who hasn't played a single game is crazy...we will improve because our better players play well enabling the others to shine in support - if we are counting on Jones to kick 80 goals then it is going to be a long season.

Oh yeah - Murphy has to play back.

One would think a year without major injuries to our key players would have to be a more successful year than last year. However, predicting the future performance of a football team is a very inexact science. In any given year there is always the potential that senior players hit the wall, and/or younger players have breakout years and/or our game plan proves to be pure genius/disaster, or none of the above.

I am placing my hopes and dreams on nobody in particular, but I do prefer to approach a new season with a sense of optimism rather than foreboding. I am optimistic that our new coach's game plan will be successful and that at least one or two of our younger players will have breakout years. I don't believe we will threaten this year, but I do believe it may be different in2013, 2014.

Back on thread, I think Murphy has to play back and so does Lake. Jones and Grant had their two years apprenticeship under Hall, now they need to be given the responsibility of being the key tall forwards. If Panos, or Hill, or another young tall can wrest the roles from them, then well done them, but it is theirs to lose. Gia and Higgins are automatic and Dahlhaus, Roughead, Cordy, Veszpremi, Dickson et al get to fight out the rest of the spots in the forward line and on the bench.

[F'scary]

One would think a year without major injuries to our key players would have to be a more successful year than last year. However, predicting the future performance of a football team is a very inexact science. In any given year there is always the potential that senior players hit the wall, and/or younger players have breakout years and/or our game plan proves to be pure genius/disaster, or none of the above.

I am placing my hopes and dreams on nobody in particular, but I do prefer to approach a new season with a sense of optimism rather than foreboding. I am optimistic that our new coach's game plan will be successful and that at least one or two of our younger players will have breakout years. I don't believe we will threaten next year, but I do believe it may be different in2013, 2014.

Back on thread, I think Murphy has to play back and so does Lake. Jones and Grant had their two years apprenticeship under Hall, now they need to be given the responsibility of being the key tall forwards. If Panos, or Hill, or another young tall can wrest the roles from them, then well done them, but it is theirs to lose. Gia and Higgins are automatic and Dahlhaus, Roughead, Cordy, Veszpremi, Dickson et al get to fight out the rest of the spots in the forward line and on the bench.

sorry, gents, but I think we have plenty of back line players. Murphy and Lake would make a big difference to the forward line in my opinion. It will be interesting to see what the coach does. I agree though that Jones & the Dalhausen should be dropped pretty quickly if they lose form but they both looked the part last year so I wouldn't expect this to happen. And J Grant would benefit from having a nullifying role - keep it simple, each week he's told to 'stop this guy' and you play him on one of the best from the opposition, in particular lead up, mobile, marking forwards.:cool:

[F'scary]

Yes I agree. It is rare to find someone who is such a spud.

Is a spud good or bad?

[chef]

Is a spud good or bad?

Bad.

[Mantis]

sorry, gents, but I think we have plenty of back line players. Murphy and Lake would make a big difference to the forward line in my opinion. It will be interesting to see what the coach does. I agree though that Jones & the Dalhausen should be dropped pretty quickly if they lose form but they both looked the part last year so I wouldn't expect this to happen. And J Grant would benefit from having a nullifying role - keep it simple, each week he's told to 'stop this guy' and you play him on one of the best from the opposition, in particular lead up, mobile, marking forwards.:cool:

Name them.

[Dazza]

To be fair Barlow played some pretty good games for us last year.

Games that if Everitt had played he would have been talked up.

[Desipura]

Any chance we can talk about forward line players that are currently on our list?

[SlimPickens]

HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT!:eek: He is a footballer of rare ability. I am completely shattered. How could they get it so wrong. I WANT TO KNOW: WHO'S RESPONSIBLE?!?:confused::mad:

It was very rare to see his ability....he could run?

[KT31]

Is a spud good or bad?

If you played during the 80's and 90's in a Saints jumper good, any one else it is rhyming slang for DUD !!!
Although to be fair Barlow lived up to his promise at the club (little expected) and wasn't our worst last season.

[jazzadogs]

sorry, gents, but I think we have plenty of back line players. Murphy and Lake would make a big difference to the forward line in my opinion. It will be interesting to see what the coach does. I agree though that Jones & the Dalhausen should be dropped pretty quickly if they lose form but they both looked the part last year so I wouldn't expect this to happen. And J Grant would benefit from having a nullifying role - keep it simple, each week he's told to 'stop this guy' and you play him on one of the best from the opposition, in particular lead up, mobile, marking forwards.:cool:
I don't have any evidence to support this, but I just cannot see Jarrad Grant being a successful defender. He played his juniors in the forward line (as far as I know), has so far played every game for the Dogs in the forward line, and has shown an ability to kick goals when there.

From the photos I've seen so far this pre-season, he looks to have finally put on some size which should help him in contested situations, and hopefully it will not diminish his speed. With this added muscle, plus (hopefully) a lot of instruction and teaching from McCartney and co I see a lot of improvement in Grant, and would definitely keep him in the forward line.

[mjp]

One would think a year without major injuries to our key players would have to be a more successful year than last year. However, predicting the future performance of a football team is a very inexact science. In any given year there is always the potential that senior players hit the wall, and/or younger players have breakout years and/or our game plan proves to be pure genius/disaster, or none of the above.

I am placing my hopes and dreams on nobody in particular, but I do prefer to approach a new season with a sense of optimism rather than foreboding. I am optimistic that our new coach's game plan will be successful and that at least one or two of our younger players will have breakout years. I don't believe we will threaten this year, but I do believe it may be different in2013, 2014.

Back on thread, I think Murphy has to play back and so does Lake. Jones and Grant had their two years apprenticeship under Hall, now they need to be given the responsibility of being the key tall forwards. If Panos, or Hill, or another young tall can wrest the roles from them, then well done them, but it is theirs to lose. Gia and Higgins are automatic and Dahlhaus, Roughead, Cordy, Veszpremi, Dickson et al get to fight out the rest of the spots in the forward line and on the bench.

I pretty much agree with all of that...yet somehow you wrote it to disagree with me. Does all of that mean I disagree with myself?

[Before I Die]

I pretty much agree with all of that...yet somehow you wrote it to disagree with me. Does all of that mean I disagree with myself?

No, my post was in total agreement with yours. I just added a bit of wishful thinking as well. :D

[Remi Moses]

The overnight guys at SEN think we've got the worse spine of the Vic teams.
What do people think?
Personally think there are a few worse, Richmond spring to mind.

[Evel]

The overnight guys at SEN think we've got the worse spine of the Vic teams.
What do people think?
Personally think there are a few worse, Richmond spring to mind.

I think with question marks over Lake's fitness still and the retirement of Barry Hall that you could make that argument (I haven't done a review of other Vic clubs playing lists however).

I do think there is the potential for a quick turnaround. I thought Markovic was solid in 2011, Jones, Grant and Roughhead can improve and if one or more of Panos, Roberts, Talia, Hill or Redpath can prove serviceable or fingers crossed elite then we suddenly look in good shape. Therein lies the problem however in that it is all speculative.

[comrade]

F'scary, please tell me you're a spoof account set up by some nefarious poster like Rocco Jones?

:D

[BulldogBelle]

Our spine definitely is very raw on paper, but I think our strength around the entire ground is still overall quite good.

[LostDoggy]

F'scary, please tell me you're a spoof account set up by some nefarious poster like Rocco Jones?

:D

This.

[Sockeye Salmon]

The overnight guys at SEN think we've got the worse spine of the Vic teams.
What do people think?
Personally think there are a few worse, Richmond spring to mind.

I think they're right.

Lake is a star but big question marks about his fitness
Williams is honest but injury prone.
Jones is a kid with promise, at this stage nothing more
We don't have a full forward.

The only positive I see coming up in 2012 is we get two first round picks and I think they will be early ones.

[stefoid]

Johno, Acker, Gia, Hahn, Hill/Higgins, Welsh

Grant, Jones, Panos, Gia, Dalhaus, Roughhead/Minson


discuss

[Before I Die]

Johno, Acker, Gia, Hahn, Hill/Higgins, Welsh

Grant, Jones, Panos, Gia, Dalhaus, Roughhead/Minson


discuss

The first lot weren't good enough to bring home the big one. Maybe the second lot will be.

[Desipura]

Johno, Acker, Gia, Hahn, Hill/Higgins, Welsh

Grant, Jones, Panos, Gia, Dalhaus, Roughhead/Minson


discuss

The headline reads Forward Line 2012, can we stick to the title?

[AndrewP6]

The overnight guys at SEN think we've got the worse spine of the Vic teams.
What do people think?
Personally think there are a few worse, Richmond spring to mind.

Not 100% on other teams lists, but IMO our spine isn't flash. No FF, Jones merely potentially very good, Markovic was alright last year and I'd be glad to see Lake on the ground, let alone produce AA form.

[stefoid]

The headline reads Forward Line 2012, can we stick to the title?

To spell it out, the top was our forward line pre-Hall, in a fairly well perfromed team that went close to getting into a GF.

The bottom is our forward line post-Hall.

Is one that much worse than the other?

[AndrewP6]

To spell it out, the top was our forward line pre-Hall, in a fairly well perfromed team that went close to getting into a GF.

The bottom is our forward line post-Hall.

Is one that much worse than the other?

The top one got us that far. The bottom one potentially could go alright but potential doesn't kick goals.

FWIW, I'd rather have Johnno, Aker and Gia than Grant, Jones and Dahlhaus.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Johnno and Aker were elite players, Gia was a very good half forward, Hahn did a lot fo the grunt work, Welsh was handy and Hill/Higgins added a touch of class (during that time).

It's miles ahead of this group.

We haven't got any noted goal kickers, and I doubt Jones will ever be one. Grant may be able to reach 30-40, Panos is an unknown but perhaps has a role/style that is most 'suited' to consistently kicking goals.

Time will tell.

[Before I Die]

Johno, Acker, Gia, Hahn, Hill/Higgins, Welsh

Primarily dependent upont the skills and experience of ageing mid-field A graders. Talented but lacks speed and undersized. Will dominate against weaker defenses and will find a way to score against the best so long as the midfield is at least breaking even. However, will struggle to keep the ball in the forward line and will be hurt going the otherway. Not the answer we need in big finals.



Grant, Jones, Panos, Gia, Dalhaus, Roughhead/Minson

Young and as yet umproven, but full of potential. Contains no ageing stars who have played their best footy elsewhere and no journeymen of questionable talent that have been offloaded by other clubs. All home grown and have each given glimpses that they could each be something special. Genuine height and pace and a willingness to chase. However, it is likely that they will need at least one or two seasons together before they really click.

[Maddog37]

All this talk just illustrates to me how uncertain 2012 looks. It will be very exciting to see either way.

On paper our forwards look weak and our spine potentially weak overall but if a few of the bigger young guys step up like Jones, tommyW, Grant, Ruffy and maybe even Panos or Marko then it could quickly become a strength.

Looking at training today we have a very tall group with Hill and Redpath etc now at the club.

[Desipura]

Our backline and midfield could possibly make our forward line look better. Good/regular supply will make it easier for our forwards to convert.

[BulldogBelle]

Our backline and midfield could possibly make our forward line look better. Good/regular supply will make it easier for our forwards to convert.


This

And our contested ball will be much better (figers crossed) in 2012

In addition our game plan will move from a play on / keep the ball moving at all costs which is dependent on elite skills (under pressure) that the majority of our players dont have.

We will be able to win the contested ball by going in hard and tackling with ferocity and tenacity (tackle and dump over and over again) once we get it find a short option, and then slowly work the ball up the ground by players working hard and spotting up an option (ala Hawthorn in 2011). Quick movement by quick young forwards should hopefully find an option in the F50 with any luck.

Work to our strengths by playing a slower game and utilise our 'elite' contested ball winners (Cooney, Libba, Boyd, Griffin and possibly Smith)

[Sockeye Salmon]

This

And our contested ball will be much better (figers crossed) in 2012

In addition our game plan will move from a play on / keep the ball moving at all costs which is dependent on elite skills (under pressure) that the majority of our players dont have.

We will be able to win the contested ball by going in hard and tackling with ferocity and tenacity (tackle and dump over and over again) once we get it find a short option, and then slowly work the ball up the ground by players working hard and spotting up an option (ala Hawthorn in 2011). Quick movement by quick young forwards should hopefully find an option in the F50 with any luck.

Work to our strengths by playing a slower game and utilise our 'elite' contested ball winners (Cooney, Libba, Boyd, Griffin and possibly Smith)

And moving the ball slowly will help our forwards because... ?

[ledge]

And moving the ball slowly will help our forwards because... ?

Maybe they are slow??

[Greystache]

And moving the ball slowly will help our forwards because... ?

Because we won't be bombing the ball high and blindly to outnumbered forwards because the slow midfielder played on and put himself under pressure, which was the trademark of our old gameplan.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Because we won't be bombing the ball high and blindly to outnumbered forwards because the slow midfielder played on and put himself under pressure, which was the trademark of our old gameplan.

It will also be a very interesting season to see what our new forwards coach brings o the table, Monty having played with a few of these guys and under the old plan. He never stepped away from a scap and I'm sure he will instill this into the guys he coaches and rotate through the onward 50.

[KT31]

Because we won't be bombing the ball high and blindly to outnumbered forwards because the slow midfielder played on and put himself under pressure, which was the trademark of our old gameplan.

Moving the ball into our forward line slowly will allow the opposition to drop players back and man up on an inexperienced forward line.

[LostDoggy]

Moving the ball into our forward line will allow the opposition to drop players back and man up on an inexperienced forward line.

Ahhh. Cunning. You want to move it into their forward line then and double-bluff the rotters. The old move-it-back-turn-it-round-pick-a-bail-of cotton-triple-bluff-ploy. Right behind ya

[KT31]

Ahhh. Cunning. You want to move it into their forward line then and double-bluff the rotters. The old move-it-back-turn-it-round-pick-a-bail-of cotton-triple-bluff-ploy. Right behind ya

Oop's, missng the word "slowly":D

[F'scary]

F'scary, please tell me you're a spoof account set up by some nefarious poster like Rocco Jones?

:D

I am going to google "Rocco Jones" but I don't think I'm him.

Back to the thread, someone here said J Grant has beefed up a bit over the pre season. Sounds good but I hope not at the cost of his pace, leap and agility. Yeah, maybe I change my mind and pick him in the forward line in place of having a resting ruckman. Bad luck Minson - you have to ruck all day!!! Roughead, VFL until you displace Minson. One ruckman, picked on form. This is footy Capitalism, demand (blokes wanting ruck position) exceeds supply (available ruck positions in the 22), creates competition between buyers (aspiring ruckmen) to see who is prepared to give the most to get the market good (ruck position). Winner: the whole team benefits from increased internal competition for available places.

[mjp]

One ruckman all day? Fine. Who helps him out - or fills in if he is injured? Does this mean the sub is a ruckman?

Saying 'bad luck - you have to ruck all day' is fine in principle, then you run out against Freo (for example) who throw Sandilands, Bradley and Clarke all in the 22 playing different roles and what exactly do you do? Or West Coast with Cox, Natanui and Lynch, or any number of other teams. I get what you are saying - I understand the principle - but someone has to help out. Is it Jones? Because CHF is a pretty big job in itself...and if it isn't him, then who.

Footy capitalism? I like it. You know it is survival of the fittest against the OTHER 17 sides though, not amongst the blokes in our own squad.

[F'scary]

One ruckman all day? Fine. Who helps him out - or fills in if he is injured? Does this mean the sub is a ruckman?

Saying 'bad luck - you have to ruck all day' is fine in principle, then you run out against Freo (for example) who throw Sandilands, Bradley and Clarke all in the 22 playing different roles and what exactly do you do? Or West Coast with Cox, Natanui and Lynch, or any number of other teams. I get what you are saying - I understand the principle - but someone has to help out. Is it Jones? Because CHF is a pretty big job in itself...and if it isn't him, then who.

Footy capitalism? I like it. You know it is survival of the fittest against the OTHER 17 sides though, not amongst the blokes in our own squad.

Understood, maybe some games it's going to have to be 2 rucks. Other games, Jones might have to do the forward line work. Maybe use tactics like have a second guy coming over the top if the first just goes the wrestle. Don't think any team is using the sub for a ruck position. Also Big Will is a fit and mobile guy now that he is over his soy milk fetish or yoghurt or whatever it was. This is his chance, perhaps, to put the hand up and be considerred in the same group as Cox, Sandilands and the Sydney Swans guy. cheers. He isn't the strongest mark, but he's a good spoiler and in all other respects should be able to do it, he's got ability, just has to put the sax down and pick the footy up.

[GVGjr]

One ruckman all day? Fine. Who helps him out - or fills in if he is injured? Does this mean the sub is a ruckman?

Saying 'bad luck - you have to ruck all day' is fine in principle, then you run out against Freo (for example) who throw Sandilands, Bradley and Clarke all in the 22 playing different roles and what exactly do you do? Or West Coast with Cox, Natanui and Lynch, or any number of other teams. I get what you are saying - I understand the principle - but someone has to help out. Is it Jones? Because CHF is a pretty big job in itself...and if it isn't him, then who.

Footy capitalism? I like it. You know it is survival of the fittest against the OTHER 17 sides though, not amongst the blokes in our own squad.


I didn't like the idea of using Jones in the ruck last season even when we still had Hall in the forward line and I like it a lot less now as we head into the 2012 season. We should have traded for a more expendable player who could fill that role for us.

[mjp]

I didn't like the idea of using Jones in the ruck last season even when we still had Hall in the forward line and I like it a lot less now as we head into the 2012 season. We should have traded for a more expendable player who could fill that role for us.

Totally agree. And that is my point - we don't have anyone on the list (unless Hill jumps up??) which means we have to play two ruckman.

Going into a game without a viable second ruckman is just crazy - stoppages are just too important to concede to a part-timer for extended periods of time. And suggestions that Jones rucks the 'forward line' kind of implies that our primary ruckman sits a kick behind the ball? This is not the 1980's - the opposition just wont kick it too him...they will run it out, run around him and we will be playing one short...teams push an extra player UP to cut off the outlets - I know we have a new gameplan but I don't think conceding numbers in a part of the field where we have the advantage will be part of it.

I can't believe I am getting this worked up about things in January, but for goodness sake. I am tired of reading about how moving the best full-back our club has EVER had forward is a good plan (did anyone watch what happened in 2011 when he was missing from the defensive 50m area?). Now we are going back to the '70s and only playing one ruckman - we tried that in round 1 last year and it was a complete disaster...why will that have changed?

I know this is a forward line thread and none of my post has been about the forward line, but we are facing a pretty tough reality down there. We have a couple of kids in Grant and Jones who are going to have to be our spear-heads. Some combination of Sherman, Veszpremi, Tutt and Dalhaus will help out. Roughead will have to take some marks as a second ruckman because we know Minson can't do it consistently. About all we can bank on is that Gia will kick between 30 and 40 goals if he stays down there, with 2-3 bags of 4 or so and an equal number of games where he gets none.

As for the rest of them, well guys like Panos will get a shot if he happens to be IN FORM when Jones/Grant are OUT OF FORM. As for the likes of Dickson and Skinner, our expectations should be basically zero because they are effectively first year players with a fair bit of competition for a spot (though I guess Dickson could have a Cromartie type impact as a best case scenario).

[GVGjr]

Totally agree. And that is my point - we don't have anyone on the list (unless Hill jumps up??) which means we have to play two ruckman.



It would have been great for us if Tom Hill didn't get injured last season so that we could see if he is capable of of spending 10 to 15 minutes per quarter as a key forward and be effective as a ruckman for 5 minutes. Ideally we want Roughead to fill that key forward role for us and switching into the ruck but he needs to be able to hold his marks better and I'd be a bit surprised if he adds that to hjs skill set quickly this season.

I think we will continue to use Jones as the 2nd ruckman more than we should because we just don't have the options. I guess we will go in with a small forward line set-up on a regular basis and maybe that opens the door for Dickson.

[Before I Die]

It would have been great for us if Tom Hill didn't get injured last season so that we could see if he is capable of of spending 10 to 15 minutes per quarter as a key forward and be effective as a ruckman for 5 minutes. Ideally we want Roughead to fill that key forward role for us and switching into the ruck but he needs to be able to hold his marks better and I'd be a bit surprised if he adds that to hjs skill set quickly this season.

I think we will continue to use Jones as the 2nd ruckman more than we should because we just don't have the options. I guess we will go in with a small forward line set-up on a regular basis and maybe that opens the door for Dickson.

I think the opposite may be the case. I think that Roughead or Cordy will play most weeks, sharing the workload of the second ruck/forward role. Jones and Grant will be regulars and I think Panos will be given a chance along side them. There will be form slumps and some, if not all, of the above named players will have spells at Williamstown, but overall I believe we will play quite tall up forward this year.

[Bulldog4life]

I think the opposite may be the case. I think that Roughead or Cordy will play most weeks, sharing the workload of the second ruck/forward role. Jones and Grant will be regulars and I think Panos will be given a chance along side them. There will be form slumps and some, if not all, of the above named players will have spells at Williamstown, but overall I believe we will play quite tall up forward this year.

Agree with this. You only have to look at West Coast with their talls in the forward line: Kennedy, Darling & Lynch complimented by Cox and Nat during the game. You don't have to go with only two talls in the forward line.

[the banker]

I think we will be looking for structure to support new game plan. That's why my guess is the Panos will be given a good chance to perform a role. I think also that we will play taller up forward. Makes the crumbling, goal sneaking and tackling, chasing attributes of the smaller player essential. I think grant will have to play small.

[DragzLS1]

I think we will be looking for structure to support new game plan. That's why my guess is the Panos will be given a good chance to perform a role. I think also that we will play taller up forward. Makes the crumbling, goal sneaking and tackling, chasing attributes of the smaller player essential. I think grant will have to play small.

I would prefer him playing small to medium as he is quick and would be hard to match up against.

[Before I Die]

I think we will be looking for structure to support new game plan. That's why my guess is the Panos will be given a good chance to perform a role. I think also that we will play taller up forward. Makes the crumbling, goal sneaking and tackling, chasing attributes of the smaller player essential. I think grant will have to play small.

I don't understand this. A defender may have to play small or tall depending on their opponent, but a forward makes the play. You don't tell a 192cm player not to go for his marks, nor do you tell a quick player not to lead, nor a good ball handler not run past a pack to collect a spilled ball. Grant should do all of these things. At different times he will play CHF, FF, HFF and FP and his movement patterns will vary, but he will always be a 192cm player with good hands and pace, though lacking a bit of strength.

As Bulldog4life pointed out, which one of Kennedy, Darling and Lynch plays small forward at West Coast!

[Cyberdoggie]

As for the rest of them, well guys like Panos will get a shot if he happens to be IN FORM when Jones/Grant are OUT OF FORM. As for the likes of Dickson and Skinner, our expectations should be basically zero because they are effectively first year players with a fair bit of competition for a spot (though I guess Dickson could have a Cromartie type impact as a best case scenario).

There will obviously be a lot of experimenting in the practice games and i think Panos will get a real go over this period, as will Dickson.

You are right though neither have even played a senior game of football so we should expect nothing from them.

[stefoid]

Forwards have different roles though, which generally suit different sized players. crumbers are usually short. long targets are usually tall and strong, etc...

I think what banker is saying is that grant should play a role that is generally taken on by shorter players and leave the long target / pack marking type of roles to the other tall players.

Probably the role will suit his strenghts of speed, agility and sticky hands, and his height will just be a bonus.

[jazzadogs]

Forwards have different roles though, which generally suit different sized players. crumbers are usually short. long targets are usually tall and strong, etc...

I think what banker is saying is that grant should play a role that is generally taken on by shorter players and leave the long target / pack marking type of roles to the other tall players.

Probably the role will suit his strenghts of speed, agility and sticky hands, and his height will just be a bonus.
He should be playing the role that Josh Hill played a few years back, except with added defensive pressure and speed.

He has the capability to be a damaging player as a combination marking/crumbing forward pocket. If Panos doesn't develop as we hope, then Grant should be given a go at FF as well.

[Sedat]

neither have even played a senior game of football so we should expect nothing from them.One has been elevated to the senior list on the back of solid VFL form and a 2 year apprentiship. The other is a 24yo mature age recruit who has been catapaulted straight onto our senior list. I'd like to think we should expect more than nothing from both of them, and the fragile nature of our forward line should give plenty of senior opportunities for both Panos and Dickson if their form warrants it.

[jeemak]

Totally agree. And that is my point - we don't have anyone on the list (unless Hill jumps up??) which means we have to play two ruckman.

Going into a game without a viable second ruckman is just crazy - stoppages are just too important to concede to a part-timer for extended periods of time. And suggestions that Jones rucks the 'forward line' kind of implies that our primary ruckman sits a kick behind the ball? This is not the 1980's - the opposition just wont kick it too him...they will run it out, run around him and we will be playing one short...teams push an extra player UP to cut off the outlets - I know we have a new gameplan but I don't think conceding numbers in a part of the field where we have the advantage will be part of it.

I can't believe I am getting this worked up about things in January, but for goodness sake. I am tired of reading about how moving the best full-back our club has EVER had forward is a good plan (did anyone watch what happened in 2011 when he was missing from the defensive 50m area?). Now we are going back to the '70s and only playing one ruckman - we tried that in round 1 last year and it was a complete disaster...why will that have changed?

I know this is a forward line thread and none of my post has been about the forward line, but we are facing a pretty tough reality down there. We have a couple of kids in Grant and Jones who are going to have to be our spear-heads. Some combination of Sherman, Veszpremi, Tutt and Dalhaus will help out. Roughead will have to take some marks as a second ruckman because we know Minson can't do it consistently. About all we can bank on is that Gia will kick between 30 and 40 goals if he stays down there, with 2-3 bags of 4 or so and an equal number of games where he gets none.

As for the rest of them, well guys like Panos will get a shot if he happens to be IN FORM when Jones/Grant are OUT OF FORM. As for the likes of Dickson and Skinner, our expectations should be basically zero because they are effectively first year players with a fair bit of competition for a spot (though I guess Dickson could have a Cromartie type impact as a best case scenario).

Not a bad post at all.

I think we need to go in with two Rucks, and when resting one needs to spend a considerable amount of time forward on a weekly basis. I can't see any other way to take pressure of Grant and Jones especially against teams with quality defences, that have at least two genuine talls and one other that can cover tall and mid sized players.

We also need to get as many games in to guys like Roughead, Cordy and Panos as quickly as possible. I don't think we should be kidding ourselves, this year is a development year whether we like it or not, and a lot of the required development needs to go into our taller players that are forward of centre and in the ruck. They just have to be given games if we're to turn the ship around quickly.

From a forward line perspective we shouldn't be looking at this year as a means of scraping together goals. With a modified game plan I think we have the midfield and defense to provide enough opportunities to score and negate the opposition in the process (as long as we're fit enough of course). Sure it might be slim pickings at stages, but we need to accept that's how it is.

2012 presents a very good opportunity to set up our next premiership tilt forward line, as we have two very talented taller forwards in Grant and Jones that require perserverance and time and some smaller forwards in Dahl, Higgins, Vez and DJ who should be realising their potential over the next couple of years. Add Panos as a tall that has some scope for immediate improvement. We need to bite the bullet give them a solid run at development as a unit.

[LostDoggy]

We also need to get as many games in to guys like Roughead, Cordy and Panos as quickly as possible. I don't think we should be kidding ourselves, this year is a development year whether we like it or not, and a lot of the required development needs to go into our taller players that are forward of centre and in the ruck. They just have to be given games if we're to turn the ship around quickly.

From a forward line perspective we shouldn't be looking at this year as a means of scraping together goals. With a modified game plan I think we have the midfield and defense to provide enough opportunities to score and negate the opposition in the process (as long as we're fit enough of course). Sure it might be slim pickings at stages, but we need to accept that's how it is.



Great, realistic post. I hate the idea of 'development years', but you're probably spot on there -- we just have a big hole in our list in terms of experience and battle-hardened talls, so biting the bullet is the right terminology, I would say.

You did mention Higgins as one who is 'younger' and has yet to reach his potential -- would love it to be true, but I don't think we should expect much more out of him than to be a solid contributor from week to week. Heck, if we can get that much, instead of a downhill skiing, non-contributing liability, I'll be rapt.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Even though it's only a couple of short NAB Cup games, clearly our biggest problem is going to be establishing a forward line.

We really struggled to find targets all night -- and much of that can perhaps be put onto the mids/half backs for the atrocious delivery. We could have had Franklin, Riewoldt and Brown circling and still wouldn't have kicked a bigger score with the way we brought that ball in.

Dickson was dead quiet and whilst Panos did a few OK things, there wasn't much to go off.

Will be interesting to see who we line up with in Round 1.

I wonder if Skinner will get a look in.

[LostDoggy]

Look like getting the ball to the forwards was more an issue. Slow and poor disposal going in isnt gonna help any forward. Jones is doubled teamed and he ain't Carey ....yet.

[the banker]

Skinner looked comfortable. He may press Grant for his position which is a big surprise to me. Great if he has settled into Melbourne and developed his footy over the summer.

[LostDoggy]

Hard to judge Skinner in this nab cup bs especially against GWS. Grant is another got me worried, completely ineffective.

[Desipura]

Grant will be lucky to be on an AFL list in 12 months time unless he dramatically pulls his finger out. Lacks intensity and consistency in his efforts, let's his opponent push him around.
Went down like he was shot in a collision then got up straight away when awarded the free kick. I don't like that, would rather he got aggressive towards the guy that collided with him.

[GVGjr]

Grant will be lucky to be on an AFL list in 12 months time unless he dramatically pulls his finger out. Lacks intensity and consistency in his efforts, let's his opponent push him around.
Went down like he was shot in a collision then got up straight away when awarded the free kick. I don't like that, would rather he got aggressive towards the guy that collided with him.

I'd be surprised if he wasn't on a list in 12 months time but I've always struggled to embrace our players who have a questionable intensity level and Grant is certainly one of them.
McCartney has a challenge on his hand to get the most out of Grant.

[Hotdog60]

Grant will be lucky to be on an AFL list in 12 months time unless he dramatically pulls his finger out. Lacks intensity and consistency in his efforts, let's his opponent push him around.
Went down like he was shot in a collision then got up straight away when awarded the free kick. I don't like that, would rather he got aggressive towards the guy that collided with him.

Swan had tackled Grant and in the process of getting up Swan pushed Grant to the ground in the manner of you stay down there, Grant just got up expressionless as if it ment nothing. I would have like Grant to have gone and put Swan on his arse even if it gave away the free kick.

Players shouldn't except that intimidation and if we do we have no hope of winning a final with these types of players.

[LostDoggy]

Swan had tackled Grant and in the process of getting up Swan pushed Grant to the ground in the manner of you stay down there, Grant just got up expressionless as if it ment nothing. I would have like Grant to have gone and put Swan on his arse even if it gave away the free kick.

Players shouldn't except that intimidation and if we do we have no hope of winning a final with these types of players.

That was the little turd Shaw not Swan. If anyone needs a punch in the face, it's Heath Shaw.
Agreed it was a bit piss weak by Grant.

[Desipura]

Swan had tackled Grant and in the process of getting up Swan pushed Grant to the ground in the manner of you stay down there, Grant just got up expressionless as if it ment nothing. I would have like Grant to have gone and put Swan on his arse even if it gave away the free kick.

Players shouldn't except that intimidation and if we do we have no hope of winning a final with these types of players.

I was not referring to that incident but do know which one you are referring to, Brereton mentioned that it was intimidation by Shaw and that he should have retaliated, as those type of things help win finals. You have pretty much quoted Brereton. I am referring to another incident where Grant went down as if he was shot dead.

[Hotdog60]

I was not referring to that incident but do know which one you are referring to, Brereton mentioned that it was intimidation by Shaw and that he should have retaliated, as those type of things help win finals. You have pretty much quoted Brereton. I am referring to another incident where Grant went down as if he was shot dead.

Yes it was Shaw and not Swan, I know what you were referring to and agree, I was just adding a bit more to the story.

[Ghost Dog]

That was the little turd Shaw not Swan. If anyone needs a punch in the face, it's Heath Shaw.
Agreed it was a bit piss weak by Grant.

that would depend. Some players get fired up and helps them perform ( Nadal)
Others like to keep cool as it helps them get perform ( Federa )
Either way, if you don't your revenge on the scoreboard, it means little.

[LostDoggy]

that would depend. Some players get fired up and helps them perform ( Nadal)
Others like to keep cool as it helps them get perform ( Federa )
Either way, if you don't your revenge on the scoreboard, it means little.

Mens Tennis ain't AFL in fact its not even a team sport. You'll find the best teams intimidate and win on the scoreboard.

[Ghost Dog]

I must admit, it raised my eyebrows. Grant jump to his feet and didn't even blink after being roughed up by shaw. does the kid have a pulse???

[The Bulldogs Bite]

He's way too emotionless on the field, period. Even if he does something good and kicks a good goal, he just jogs back to his position.

It's like he doesn't enjoy playing the game.

Annoying to watch.

[AndrewP6]

It wouldn't bother me if Grant was low key and produced the goods... But he's low key and has little impact on the game.

[Greystache]

I think we really need to try Grant out of the goal square. He's quick and can get separation, plus it might mean the ball is kicked to him so he'll get more involved. He seems lost further up the ground, plus he's not physical, and doesn't work hard enough.

If he can't make it as a deep forward I don't think he has an AFL career ahead of him.

[GVGjr]

I think we really need to try Grant out of the goal square. He's quick and can get separation, plus it might mean the ball is kicked to him so he'll get more involved. He seems lost further up the ground, plus he's not physical, and doesn't work hard enough.

If he can't make it as a deep forward I don't think he has an AFL career ahead of him.

It sounds like a good plan but if Roughead spends time in a pocket does it mean we have to play Jones as the CHF?

[Greystache]

It sounds like a good plan but if Roughead spends time in a pocket does it mean we have to play Jones as the CHF?

It does, but I think Jones is a more natural CHF anyway.

I'd have Roughead as a deep get out option, similar to the way Minson played with the benefit of Roughead being able to mark. I'd want Grant to lead every time we went inside 50 and the players look for him wherever possible.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

It does, but I think Jones is a more natural CHF anyway.

I'd have Roughead as a deep get out option, similar to the way Minson played with the benefit of Roughead being able to mark. I'd want Grant to lead every time we went inside 50 and the players look for him wherever possible.

This.

We seem persistent with him as a HFF though, despite recruiting him as a FF.

[LostDoggy]

Have my doubt on Grant at ff when he doesn't like any contact at all and FFs are niggled all the time. The oppositions have worked him out here.

[Happy Days]

This.

We seem persistent with him as a HFF though, despite recruiting him as a FF.

+1.

I just don't understand the aversion to trying him out of the square for an extended run. His skill set is tailor made to play this role, but because he's adequate beneath his feet we seem dead set on having him crumb.

I don't see Roughy as too much of a barrier, he should be splitting time with Will, not just resting up forward.

[LostDoggy]

that would depend. Some players get fired up and helps them perform ( Nadal)
Others like to keep cool as it helps them get perform ( Federa )
Either way, if you don't your revenge on the scoreboard, it means little.

Federer is an incredibly intense competitor, and actually had to find some self control to perform at his best. Was a racquet smasher in his early career.

Also, Fed intimidates by just destroying you with his precision and shot making. Players are intimidated before even stepping on the court. His pre seasons are also legendary dune running marathons in abu dhabi and dubai.

Comparing grant to that is laughable. No one is remotely intimidated by him, and he has no playing record to speak of. If he keeps cool and performs, that theory may have some credit. As it stands, he barely touches the ball so his keeping cool is irrelevant. The harsh truth that some seem unwilling to consider may be that he's just farking lazy for an AFL player in 2012.

[Ghost Dog]

Federer is an incredibly intense competitor, and actually had to find some self control to perform at his best. Was a racquet smasher in his early career.

Also, Fed intimidates by just destroying you with his precision and shot making. Players are intimidated before even stepping on the court. His pre seasons are also legendary dune running marathons in abu dhabi and dubai.

Comparing grant to that is laughable. No one is remotely intimidated by him, and he has no playing record to speak of. If he keeps cool and performs, that theory may have some credit. As it stands, he barely touches the ball so his keeping cool is irrelevant. The harsh truth that some seem unwilling to consider may be that he's just farking lazy for an AFL player in 2012.

Firstly, wasn't comparing Grant as an indivudual to Federa. was drawing a comparison in terms of approach to getting on with the job, the way different people do it. some like the cool calm approach, others need to psyche themselves through carry on.

You don't see Judd, or Dane Swan in many scuffles.
Grant went through some intense boot camp style training last year from memory. IIRC Rocket said he did really well. Some players are just laconic. I don't think he's lazy at all and if he is, BMAC will send him straight to the seconds. Have no doubt about that.

[AndrewP6]

Firstly, wasn't comparing Grant as an indivudual to Federa. was drawing a comparison in terms of approach to getting on with the job, the way different people do it. some like the cool calm approach, others need to psyche themselves through carry on.

You don't see Judd, or Dane Swan in many scuffles.
Grant went through some intense boot camp style training last year from memory. IIRC Rocket said he did really well. Some players are just laconic. I don't think he's lazy at all and if he is, BMAC will send him straight to the seconds. Have no doubt about that.

As Rocket did in 2011.

[Eastdog]

Jarrad Grant is still very young and I think he has as we have said many many times potential but I think when it comes to the physical situations in footy its hard for him as he is quite skinny. I remember there was a game where he kicked 6 goals which one was that again - He has always struggled in the big matches for us.

[Before I Die]

Swan had tackled Grant and in the process of getting up Swan pushed Grant to the ground in the manner of you stay down there, Grant just got up expressionless as if it ment nothing. I would have like Grant to have gone and put Swan on his arse even if it gave away the free kick.
Players shouldn't except that intimidation and if we do we have no hope of winning a final with these types of players.

I disagree 100% Players put in those little niggles to win retaliation free kicks and/or to put a player off his game by distracting him. Why should Grant let Shaw get under his skin? Ignoring him is the best response.

Not being intimidated means not responding to the attempted intimidation and not allowing it to affect your game. Brereton's response is not about "not accepting intimidation", it is about winning the pissing competition. This was the man who was rubbed out for seven weeks for standing on the head of a former team mate in a pre-season practice match.

[Hotdog60]

I disagree 100% Players put in those little niggles to win retaliation free kicks and/or to put a player off his game by distracting him. Why should Grant let Shaw get under his skin? Ignoring him is the best response.

Not being intimidated means not responding to the attempted intimidation and not allowing it to affect your game. Brereton's response is not about "not accepting intimidation", it is about winning the pissing competition. This was the man who was rubbed out for seven weeks for standing on the head of a former team mate in a pre-season practice match.

I understand were your coming from and I would have no problem with that if Grant not long after had kick a couple of goals on him, but he didn't as I do believe the best response is on the scoreboard. Do you think when some teams come up against us they have a bit of a chuckle because they know physically they have it over us.

Would you be happy if he lined Shaw up at the next opportunity for a fair tackle and then do the same action as Shaw did at the end of it, I think its more a case I don't like other teams thinking we are the wimps of the completion. At this point in time we not dangerous enough and it looks like some of our players are not tough enough.

I don't support thuggish but I don't like us being intimidated either. Sorry I'm a bit old school.:)

[Mofra]

Have my doubt on Grant at ff when he doesn't like any contact at all and FFs are niggled all the time. The oppositions have worked him out here.
I think Grant would be quite effective as a FP/Crumbing type - he has the speed and agility, and FPs can pop up with a couple of freakish efforts per game, chase hard when they don't have the ball, and be quite effective. Nobody expects a FP type to be physical, and I don't think Grant ever will be.

I'd be interested to read how many of his goals over the past two or three seasons are from running into goal - seems like more than one would expect from a leading/marking forward.

[LostDoggy]

I understand were your coming from and I would have no problem with that if Grant not long after had kick a couple of goals on him, but he didn't as I do believe the best response is on the scoreboard. Do you think when some teams come up against us they have a bit of a chuckle because they know physically they have it over us.

Would you be happy if he lined Shaw up at the next opportunity for a fair tackle and then do the same action as Shaw did at the end of it, I think its more a case I don't like other teams thinking we are the wimps of the completion. At this point in time we not dangerous enough and it looks like some of our players are not tough enough.

I don't support thuggish but I don't like us being intimidated either. Sorry I'm a bit old school.:)

Add to all your valid points the fact that it was the PRE-SEASON comp. So what if he gave a free-kick away? It was a mickey mouse game. Do you think Shaw cared if he gave a free kick away? Grant had the perfect opportunity to stand up and be counted and make his presence felt and put a stamp on his 2012 season on national TV, and he pissed it away the same way he does every year: by being 'cool' and laconic and not caring.

We had another player like that: Andrejs Everitt. The funny thing is that Andrejs actually showed a bit more fight at times, but I think we're more loathe to make a call on Grant because he was a no.5 pick and the possibility that we threw a top 5 pick away scares us too much to consider it.

[Mofra]

We had another player like that: Andrejs Everitt. The funny thing is that Andrejs actually showed a bit more fight at times, but I think we're more loathe to make a call on Grant because he was a no.5 pick and the possibility that we threw a top 5 pick away scares us too much to consider it.
I don't think the draft pick number really matters once a kid has joined the club - they're judged on output (current and potential) and that is what frustrates supporters so much about Grant - the potential is so high.

Unlike Andrejs, we know Grant is a forward and has a turn of speed that can make him dangerous - the trick is to get him to use it more often, not try and "find a position" for him.

[LostDoggy]

I don't think the draft pick number really matters once a kid has joined the club - they're judged on output (current and potential) and that is what frustrates supporters so much about Grant - the potential is so high.

Unlike Andrejs, we know Grant is a forward and has a turn of speed that can make him dangerous - the trick is to get him to use it more often, not try and "find a position" for him.

Agree with all of the above (especially your last point), but I think the draft number definitely matters to fans (and to recruiters who have a lot riding on their early picks). There is no doubt Wallis and, say, Howard, get picked on more than, say, Schofield, Tutt or Skinner ever does, despite their relative development all being there or thereabouts (minus Schofield for obvious reasons). If Grant was a rookie pick, we'd be all commenting on his potential and drooling over his speed and one 6 goal game, but as a no.5 pick, that's simply not good enough.

Same goes with someone like Williams: Markovic gets a pass because he's a low draft pick, Tom gets crucified because he's not what we'd expect from a no.6 pick, despite both of them being pretty much limited, middling defenders who do good things from time to time. Farran Ray suffered from that curse also. I also read somewhere a comment about Will being a first round pick and not quite up to standard for one. Also, Andrejs got cut despite playing a hell of a lot more games than Mulligan, partly because he was so disappointing for a no.11 pick, and nothing is expected from Mulligan. Ditto Higgins (disappointing for a no.11 pick) compared to, say, Hooper (nothing expected from a rookie, so anything he does tends to be 'good'), although Higgins has definitely had a higher output over his career.

This is less true for older players, but it still applies sometimes: Griff performs as well as Boydy over a season but gets bagged because he doesn't win enough games off his own boot or is a 'superstar' (as expected of a no.3 pick) but Boydy gets a pass on his disposal because he's come from nowhere (his former 'rookie' status is always mentioned when he is profiled), works his arse off and been a bonus.

Mind you, I agree with all that reasoning -- higher draft picks (and therefore the right of first refusal on a far bigger pool of players) are much, much more valuable commodities than lower draft picks, so more SHOULD be expected from players picked with them.

[Ghost Dog]

Add to all your valid points the fact that it was the PRE-SEASON comp. So what if he gave a free-kick away? It was a mickey mouse game. Do you think Shaw cared if he gave a free kick away? Grant had the perfect opportunity to stand up and be counted and make his presence felt and put a stamp on his 2012 season on national TV, and he pissed it away the same way he does every year: by being 'cool' and laconic and not caring.

We had another player like that: Andrejs Everitt. The funny thing is that Andrejs actually showed a bit more fight at times, but I think we're more loathe to make a call on Grant because he was a no.5 pick and the possibility that we threw a top 5 pick away scares us too much to consider it.

How does cool and laconic = not caring?
I reckon you are being a bit hard on the lad over one incident. Comparing him to Everitt might...be... a little overly negative? He has more upsides than Spider Jnr did. Pace, marking ability, youth for starters.

First game of the preseason, let alone regular season. See how he goes over the journey of 2012 eh?

In terms of our forward line I think we are in a transition phase and it's always a rough time. expect a good 6 months to a year before things start to settle.

[Sedat]

He has more upsides than Spider Jnr did. Pace, marking ability, youth for starters.
He's only 4 months younger than Dre, who was a bottom ager when we drafted him - they were best mates at high school from memory.

[LostDoggy]

How does cool and laconic = not caring?


You're right -- I'm probably going too early for this year, but the guy has form in the 'don't care' stakes. The way he chases sometimes, either he's carrying secret injuries or he just doesn't have his head in the right place defensively, especially for someone of his pace.

Look, nothing would make me happier than if Grant takes these words and stuffs them straight back down my throat, but I'm not hopeful (for now). Of course, I reserve the right as an armchair critic to totally change my tune in 6 months when he's kicked 80 goals and made 160 tackles for the season! :)

[Ghost Dog]

He's only 4 months younger than Dre, who was a bottom ager when we drafted him - they were best mates at high school from memory.

That aside, he has more uspides than Everitt in truth. Otherwise he wouldn't still be in our list.

[LostDoggy]

That aside, he has more uspides than Everitt in truth. Otherwise he wouldn't still be in our list.

That was my point a couple of posts back, actually -- I think if Grant wasn't a top 5 pick we would definitely have looked at trading him by now, but screwing up yet another top 5 pick is too much for the club to consider. Let's just hypothetically say that Jarrad was picked at 20 or 25. You don't think we would have floated him to a few clubs over the past couple of trade weeks?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

The frustrating thing with Grant, is that he has all the tools -- and all the talent -- to be an extremely good footballer. You can easily see why he was drafted at #5.

The disappointing thing is, from the outside looking in, the mental side of his game is incredibly poor. He just doesn't work hard enough.

[Ghost Dog]

That was my point a couple of posts back, actually -- I think if Grant wasn't a top 5 pick we would definitely have looked at trading him by now, but screwing up yet another top 5 pick is too much for the club to consider. Let's just hypothetically say that Jarrad was picked at 20 or 25. You don't think we would have floated him to a few clubs over the past couple of trade weeks?

Really? you think we would have traded him?

Let's look at the stats ( source AFL TABLES )


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MUTimnAZQ4M/T0HII5IDWtI/AAAAAAAABys/giHDjfdzMWM/s1600/Fullscreen%2Bcapture%2B2202012%2B30940%2BPM.jpg

16 games - goal per game last year. Not so bad considering Barry demands the ball a lot and we had a rough season on the whole.
Average of 12.1 disposals per game is not bad for for a young-ish player. Disagree? Most CHF get about that many disposals.

I guess it also depends which games you have seen or not, as a fan.
I can't see why the club / fans would want to trade him, on paper at least. His first season, he got just a game. had a good 2010 but a poor 2011 which was reflective of the team as a whole.

I feel some are taking out their frustrations of a season gone wrong in 2011 on certain players that might be doing better. But they might also be doing much worse, as you can see above. Personally, if he kicks goals I don't care if he shows as much mongrel as others or not.

[LostDoggy]

Really? you think we would have traded him?

I feel some are taking out their frustrations of a season gone wrong in 2011 on certain players that might be doing better. But they might also be doing much worse, as you can see above. Personally, if he kicks goals I don't care if he shows as much mongrel as others or not.

I don't think we would have traded him, but as we floated the likes of Andrejs and Minnow for a couple of years, I do think that if he was a lower pick he may have been raised as it looked/looks unlikely that he'll achieve his potential with us, although I may be going early. I remember having the same discussion about Andrejs two years ago, where lots of people were loathe to consider trading him (especially after getting the no.3 shirt), defending him and arguing that he'll 'pick up his intensity', but we know that this rarely happens. What we see is what we'll tend to get with Jarrad (and most players), if we're happy with him now and think he'll contribute, fair enough, but hoping he'll magically change, find some more intensity etc. isn't very realistic.

Can't argue with the fact that if he kicks goals (although I would say "as long as he kicks goals AND makes tackles") no one would give a rats about how laconic he looks!

ps. If he has a middling year where he gets dropped to the twos, he'll be very likely to be trade bait at the end of the year.

[bornadog]

Really? you think we would have traded him?

Let's look at the stats ( source AFL TABLES )


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MUTimnAZQ4M/T0HII5IDWtI/AAAAAAAABys/giHDjfdzMWM/s1600/Fullscreen%2Bcapture%2B2202012%2B30940%2BPM.jpg

16 games - goal per game last year. Not so bad considering Barry demands the ball a lot and we had a rough season on the whole.
Average of 12.1 disposals per game is not bad for for a young-ish player. Disagree? Most CHF get about that many disposals.

I guess it also depends which games you have seen or not, as a fan.
I can't see why the club / fans would want to trade him, on paper at least. His first season, he got just a game. had a good 2010 but a poor 2011 which was reflective of the team as a whole.

I feel some are taking out their frustrations of a season gone wrong in 2011 on certain players that might be doing better. But they might also be doing much worse, as you can see above. Personally, if he kicks goals I don't care if he shows as much mongrel as others or not.

One thing the stats never show and that is intensity and want and demand for the ball. Grant needs to lift his game or he will be playing at Willi a lot in 2012.

[Before I Die]

Agree with all of the above (especially your last point), but I think the draft number definitely matters to fans (and to recruiters who have a lot riding on their early picks). There is no doubt Wallis and, say, Howard, get picked on more than, say, Schofield, Tutt or Skinner ever does, despite their relative development all being there or thereabouts (minus Schofield for obvious reasons). If Grant was a rookie pick, we'd be all commenting on his potential and drooling over his speed and one 6 goal game, but as a no.5 pick, that's simply not good enough.

Same goes with someone like Williams: Markovic gets a pass because he's a low draft pick, Tom gets crucified because he's not what we'd expect from a no.6 pick, despite both of them being pretty much limited, middling defenders who do good things from time to time. Farran Ray suffered from that curse also. I also read somewhere a comment about Will being a first round pick and not quite up to standard for one. Also, Andrejs got cut despite playing a hell of a lot more games than Mulligan, partly because he was so disappointing for a no.11 pick, and nothing is expected from Mulligan. Ditto Higgins (disappointing for a no.11 pick) compared to, say, Hooper (nothing expected from a rookie, so anything he does tends to be 'good'), although Higgins has definitely had a higher output over his career.

This is less true for older players, but it still applies sometimes: Griff performs as well as Boydy over a season but gets bagged because he doesn't win enough games off his own boot or is a 'superstar' (as expected of a no.3 pick) but Boydy gets a pass on his disposal because he's come from nowhere (his former 'rookie' status is always mentioned when he is profiled), works his arse off and been a bonus.

Mind you, I agree with all that reasoning -- higher draft picks (and therefore the right of first refusal on a far bigger pool of players) are much, much more valuable commodities than lower draft picks, so more SHOULD be expected from players picked with them.

Aren't you just agreeing with yourself in this post? You say that "I think the draft number definitely matters to fans". You then support this claim with statements that in some cases are just your opinion, then conclude with the line that "I agree with all this reasoning'. You also refer to Everitt being 'cut', which is just not true.

I am not trying to pick an argument and I think this is the first post of yours that I have ever disagreed with. But I do think you may have let your disappointment in Grant cloud your judgement a little with regard to his overall performance so far. He is guilty of fading out of the game too much and has a laconic style, but his defensive efforts are generally quite good, he makes good decisions when he has the ball and his hands are elite. Unless all of Jones, Panos, Skinner, Fletcher and Hill make exceptional leaps forward, Grant will be given time to blossom. Which I believe he will.

High draft picks who are not getting a game will often look to change clubs while they still have currency. This was the case with both Everitt and Ray, neither were cut by the club. Low draft picks don't have this currency so stay until they are cut by the club. With Mulligan the club has clearly decided that 200cm athletes on low salaries are worth persevering with for a few extra years.

[Ghost Dog]

One thing the stats never show and that is intensity and want and demand for the ball. Grant needs to lift his game or he will be playing at Willi a lot in 2012.

Based on 2011 pretty much the whole team needs to lift its game besides Boyd, Murph, Picken and the usual coterie of guys who bust a nutsack every time. Wasn't Kelvin Templeton a pretty easy going dude?

[soupman]

Panos is an interesting one.

What do the Willy watchers think of his ability to impose himself on a match? What I mean is that in the last 2 weeks (the intraclub and NAB cup (admittedly mickey mouse stuff but still...)) he has played in sides that have struggled to deliver the ball to their forwards and he more than any of the other forwards has suffered. There doesn't seem to be a plan b with him. In his favour we know that if he gets just 2 tocues that's likely 2 goals but I'm hoping that he has shown something to indicate that on a quiet day he can still force himself to get involved.

Grant has been dissapointing in both games and just doesn't look hungry or like he cares. Skinner has been the complete opposite and if he is fit enough then he is leading the race to take Grant's spot I think. He has enough attributes to really give our forwardline a spark and his disposal looked alright on the weekend.

[GVGjr]

Panos is an interesting one.

What do the Willy watchers think of his ability to impose himself on a match? What I mean is that in the last 2 weeks (the intraclub and NAB cup (admittedly mickey mouse stuff but still...)) he has played in sides that have struggled to deliver the ball to their forwards and he more than any of the other forwards has suffered. There doesn't seem to be a plan b with him. In his favour we know that if he gets just 2 tocues that's likely 2 goals but I'm hoping that he has shown something to indicate that on a quiet day he can still force himself to get involved.



My concern about Panos making it to the next level has always been more around his mobility than ability. He's improved his body shape and fitness but he still has a lot of work to do if he is to become an AFL foward.

At the VFL I'm not sure he does impose himself on games but he has been good at making the most of the opportunities that present during a game.

He still has a bit of work to do on his football but his attitude seems great and I'm confident he will give it his all.

[GVGjr]

How does cool and laconic = not caring?
I reckon you are being a bit hard on the lad over one incident. Comparing him to Everitt might...be... a little overly negative? He has more upsides than Spider Jnr did. Pace, marking ability, youth for starters.

First game of the preseason, let alone regular season. See how he goes over the journey of 2012 eh?

In terms of our forward line I think we are in a transition phase and it's always a rough time. expect a good 6 months to a year before things start to settle.

I be surprised if the comment is just isolated to one incident. I've posted a number of times about Grants focus and ethic and I think labeling him laconic at times probably does him a favor and glosses over some other traits.
Everitt was laconic and over the journey Murphy has displayed that tendency as well but Grant can shut right down with his attitude. I can remember seeing him coming to the interchange bench at Williamstown a few times looking like he was running up and down on the spot and as a comparison I can recall making mention of how hard Dahlhaus ran when it was his time to come off the ground.
Grant's concentration is the issue and at times I'd have to rate it closer to not caring than laconic.

He's got a lot of ability and at least McCartney has plenty to work with but I don't quite think he gives 100%.

Everitt, Grant and Boumann all came from the Dandenong club over a couple of seasons and I don't think any of them really pushed themselves to reach their potential.

[Greystache]

My concern about Panos making it to the next level has always been more around his mobility than ability. He's improved his body shape and fitness but he still has a lot of work to do if he is to become an AFL foward.

At the VFL I'm not sure he does impose himself on games but he has been good at making the most of the opportunities that present during a game.

He still has a bit of work to do on his football but his attitude seems great and I'm confident he will give it his all.

Agree with all of this.

He has football talent and a great attitude, that's 75% of the battle. Overcoming his weaknesses will be the challenge. I also think he is the type of player who could be benefit by the better skill level at AFL level.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Agree with all of this.

He has football talent and a great attitude, that's 75% of the battle. Overcoming his weaknesses will be the challenge. I also think he is the type of player who could be benefit by the better skill level at AFL level.

I agree with this.

I would like to see Panos play with a little more urgency/intensity. A couple of times he was caught ball watching a bit. He did follow this up with one strong lead -- almost marked it -- so there's something to work with.

We really need to teach/develop this list though. It's a real test for our coaching/support staff.

[jeemak]

Grant's development this preseason can't be gauged on his performances during the intra club match and the first round of the NAB Cup (I will need to admit at this point that I have not seen either - and I can understand posters doubting the credibility of this post due to that fact).

We don't know how tired he is, we don't know if he's carrying a niggle. From all reports he's been put in the gym to bulk up (if that's possible with him) and increase strength, and for a guy with his build that would impose a significant amount of mental and physical fatigue which would ultimately affect his performances to date.

Like a lot of players on our list, I'm prepared to see how he fares in the first half of the season before I make a judgement on whether he has improved on 2011.

Another point to note is that he relies heavily on delivery and getting the ball out in front or over the back due to his stature. Our forward line lacked system beyond going to Hall last year, and Grant suffered from that a lot. It will be interesting to see whether he can adapt to similar conditions this year.

[Maddog37]

Grant is a leading forward that has to stay out of the way of the leading forwards. It is near impossible to play that role. He is fast etc etc but he is not a crumber naturally and has been forced into this role(6 foot 5 and crumbing???).

Play him at full forward and if he cant get a kick there then he is pretty much knackered.

[LostDoggy]

Aren't you just agreeing with yourself in this post? You say that "I think the draft number definitely matters to fans". You then support this claim with statements that in some cases are just your opinion, then conclude with the line that "I agree with all this reasoning'. You also refer to Everitt being 'cut', which is just not true.

I am not trying to pick an argument and I think this is the first post of yours that I have ever disagreed with. But I do think you may have let your disappointment in Grant cloud your judgement a little with regard to his overall performance so far. He is guilty of fading out of the game too much and has a laconic style, but his defensive efforts are generally quite good, he makes good decisions when he has the ball and his hands are elite. Unless all of Jones, Panos, Skinner, Fletcher and Hill make exceptional leaps forward, Grant will be given time to blossom. Which I believe he will.

High draft picks who are not getting a game will often look to change clubs while they still have currency. This was the case with both Everitt and Ray, neither were cut by the club. Low draft picks don't have this currency so stay until they are cut by the club. With Mulligan the club has clearly decided that 200cm athletes on low salaries are worth persevering with for a few extra years.

Hi BID, interesting conversation.

IIRC, you are right, Ray wasn't cut, he was traded reluctantly, but Everitt, for want of a better word, was certainly cut, whatever the mechanics of him actually leaving the club. He was shopped around for two years and only some weird trading decisions meant he stayed a year longer than he should have, and the only reason he wasn't actually technically 'cut' from the list was, as you say, he had some trade currency. He contributed little to nothing in his last two years on our list (other than one half-good game as a back-up ruck in the last round against Collingwood a couple of years ago that gave us all a false sense of hope).

Grant's attitude (and GVG and a few other posters are of the same opinion) is not simply being 'laconic' or 'fading'. All young players do that and struggle at times, but the kid simply doesn't care at times. He came to the club with a big head saying he wanted to be the no.1 forward, but I think he's found that 'wanting' something and the work and attitude actually required to get there are two very different things, and he has rarely displayed that he cares enough to bridge that gap.

No doubt SOME talent is there, you don't get picked at no.5 without it, but if you don't think he has an attitude issue, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

ps. Am I just agreeing with myself in my post about expectations on high picks? Didn't really think it through -- I thought that the way fans see the players I mentioned were pretty self-evident, but perhaps not. Anyone else care to chime in?

[Bulldog Joe]

I also have serious concerns on Grant and they go back to the 2010 finals. He was just hopeless through that series when we really needed him to step up.

On the evidence from 2011 it also ruined his confidence as he NEVER showed anything in 2011.

He needs to really produce this year or his career, at least as a Bulldog, will be over.

[Cyberdoggie]

I also have serious concerns on Grant and they go back to the 2010 finals. He was just hopeless through that series when we really needed him to step up.

On the evidence from 2011 it also ruined his confidence as he NEVER showed anything in 2011.

He needs to really produce this year or his career, at least as a Bulldog, will be over.

Perhaps he needs to get involved more in the game, ie pushing him further up the ground?

Grant is clearly a confidence player and he just needs to get his hands on the ball a bit to boost that up. I remember early in his career he was playing the same way, then all of a sudden in VFL game against collingwood at vic park he started to get involved, get a back of 4 or so goals and took a couple of hangers. From that point on for most of that season he was a different player.

If he's not playing well i'd say drop him down a level until he does.

[DragzLS1]

Hope he can use his speed to his advantage this year as I think that is his only hope. He will not get big enough to out muscle his opponent therefore can only rely on his speed.. He is also very agile for a tall guy and I like seeing him run at defenders (just picturing his run from half way against collingwood in 2010). Hope he can step up this season and even if hes no superstar this year, atleast imrpove on last year

[Before I Die]

As stated earlier, I think Grant has a role to play in our forward structure. However, the promotion of Panos and the speculative selections of Hill and Redpath indicate the club see the need for a Plan B if he doesn't come through. I expect he will be given every opportunity to perform in the first half of the season. But if he hasn't earned his spot by then he may quickly find himself on the outer with regards to the club's future planning.

[Rocco Jones]

If Grant is ever going to really make it, I don't see it happening in a genuine KP role whether it be near 'FF' or 'CHF'. I see it more coming down to his pace, his lack of intensity really hurts here as he could use his pace to apply pressure without the ball. Offensively he could have a touch of Johnno's too good overhead for some opponents/too mobile for others danger to him but once again his unwillingness to work hurts.

[Sedat]

If Grant is ever going to really make it, I don't see it happening in a genuine KP role whether it be near 'FF' or 'CHF'. I see it more coming down to his pace, his lack of intensity really hurts here as he could use his pace to apply pressure without the ball. Offensively he could have a touch of Johnno's too good overhead for some opponents/too mobile for others danger to him but once again his unwillingness to work hurts.

Pretty well surmised. Hard work offensively and defensively will see him improve and become a valuable player. Failure to work hard will see him have a short career under McCartney.

[Mofra]

Pretty well surmised. Hard work offensively and defensively will see him improve and become a valuable player. Failure to work hard will see him have a short career under McCartney.
He did have a very good passage of defensive play during the intra-club - I know the club has said their major work with Jones was keeping him in the game, ie defensive efforts. I assume Grant has been working on the same thing so will be intersting to watch in coming weeks - possibly the most interesting player on our list in development terms.

[stefoid]

It would be refreshing if we could be the kind of club that gets the best out of players (sydney, geelong, maybe collingwood) rather than the type of club where you get the sneaking suspicion that some with 'special needs' fall through the cracks.

[bornadog]

It would be refreshing if we could be the kind of club that gets the best out of players (sydney, geelong, maybe collingwood) rather than the type of club where you get the sneaking suspicion that some with 'special needs' fall through the cracks.

Maybe the new coaching team will do that.

[Mantis]

It would be refreshing if we could be the kind of club that gets the best out of players (sydney, geelong, maybe collingwood) rather than the type of club where you get the sneaking suspicion that some with 'special needs' fall through the cracks.

Can you remind me how Sydney are getting on with Everitt?

Pretty sure it's up to the individual.

[Ghost Dog]

Can you remind me how Sydney are getting on with Everitt?

Pretty sure it's up to the individual.

REminds me
Josh Hill Kicked a goal last weekend .....groan... hopefully one of few in 2012

[LostDoggy]

It would be refreshing if we could be the kind of club that gets the best out of players (sydney, geelong, maybe collingwood) rather than the type of club where you get the sneaking suspicion that some with 'special needs' fall through the cracks.

Hi stefoid -- I posted a reply yesterday but seems to have not gotten through.

Anyway, what I said was that perhaps this was linked to how well-resourced a club is. On the one hand you have a Collingwood with 1,684 assistant coaches (only a slight exaggeration) with each devoted to every minutiae of a players' needs (they probably have a coach just to braid Daisy's hair).

On the other hand, you have some clubs where every employee is expected to multi-task. I'm sure I saw Rocket cleaning the toilets once a few years ago, and Smorgon was manning the cafe money-till the other day (again, only a slight exaggeration).

Of course you will always have your outlying pieces of datum that will succeed or fail regardless of their environment, but you have to say that the massive gap between the relative haves and have-nots of the league will have an overall effect on 'getting the best out of players'.

[Sedat]

On the other hand, you have some clubs where every employee is expected to multi-task. I'm sure I saw Rocket cleaning the toilets once a few years ago, and Smorgon was manning the cafe money-till the other day (again, only a slight exaggeration).
Dean Laidley once did the cement work around the players' bath at Arden St when he was coach (not an exaggeration).

In 2006-2007 Rocket was doing all sorts of stuff over and above coaching because we didn't have a Director of Footy Operations and all these fringe tasks fell to Rocket. Some would argue we still don't have one ;)

[Maddog37]

This is completely off thread but watching Rocket on AFL insider the other night really reminded me how likeable he is. He was being asked about Dogs players and you could tell he would rather not discuss it but he still gave good answers. He also looks a lot less stressed.

[stefoid]

Can you remind me how Sydney are getting on with Everitt?

Pretty sure it's up to the individual.

All people arent the same. They need to be treated differently to get the best out of them. The coaches have to have more than tactical/strategic skills they have to have people skills as well.

[Mantis]

All people arent the same. They need to be treated differently to get the best out of them. The coaches have to have more than tactical/strategic skills they have to have people skills as well.

Do our previous coaches lack people skills?

[Ghost Dog]

Do our previous coaches lack people skills?

Rocket's coaching style was pretty old school. Screaming at players and slamming phones went out a while ago. Some players can deal with that, and it's effective - others can't, especially your emo types.

[AndrewP6]

Rocket's coaching style was pretty old school. Screaming at players and slamming phones went out a while ago. Some players can deal with that, and it's effective - others can't, especially your emo types.

Or your 'big sooky la la types'

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Rocket's coaching style was pretty old school. Screaming at players and slamming phones went out a while ago. Some players can deal with that, and it's effective - others can't, especially your emo types.


Or your 'big sooky la la types'

Simplistic way of looking at it.

Some people just don't respond well to being screamed at -- what's so "sooky" and "emo" about that?

Would you like your boss screaming at you? Would that make you perform at your best?

[jeemak]

Rocket's coaching style was pretty old school. Screaming at players and slamming phones went out a while ago. Some players can deal with that, and it's effective - others can't, especially your emo types.

I think you're selling Eade extremely short with this. He built a list of introverted players up to a level where they almost made a grand final, and you can bet he didn't do that solely by shouting and slamming phones.

Agree that players need to be managed on an individual basis, but they also need to be able to adapt to different management styles. It's a two way street, and unless you're on the inside it's very hard to determine if each of the player or the coach was working together to the level required. Generally speaking though, it's always the coach that gets fingered in the wash up when it comes to player management whether it's a player leaving a club, or a coach being moved on.

I've not seen many of our players out and about, so if you could point me in the direction of the Emo's that Rocket couldn't relate to I'd be very grateful.

[Mantis]

Rocket's coaching style was pretty old school. Screaming at players and slamming phones went out a while ago. Some players can deal with that, and it's effective - others can't, especially your emo types.

You really believe this.... WOW. :eek:

[stefoid]

Do our previous coaches lack people skills?

who knows? Apparently its a particular strength of mac, so time will tell

[Desipura]

Do our previous coaches lack people skills?
Just an up to date game plan according to Monty and others.

[Ghost Dog]

You really believe this.... WOW. :eek:

Yes I do...

I was at the Lion Bar ( ? ) at Melbourne central once, chatting to a bunch of players ( can't remember where from ) who had rocket come and do some clinics with them. During said clinic, one of them was quietly chatting to his mate while rocket was attempting to address the group. He gave the guy a fair old spray, or so he said. The group told me how shit scared they were of Rocket.

I love Rocket. I'm not knocking him. but I know which style of coach would get the best out of me if I was playing for him. I really don't respond well to the yelling and screaming by authority figures as I had a lot of that in my home and at school. this is not to pot that approach in elite sport, as it really works for some people in that context.

If you call giving people a 'spray' good or bad people skills is your view. For me it is generally ineffective, speaking for myself, and being a teacher, would be surprised if anyone could provide any evidence that supports relating to young people in this way. Elite sport is a bit different but the fundamentals are the same as most training environments.

[LostDoggy]

Yes I do...

I was at the Lion Bar ( ? ) at Melbourne central once, chatting to a bunch of players ( can't remember where from ) who had rocket come and do some clinics with them. During said clinic, one of them was quietly chatting to his mate while rocket was attempting to address the group. He gave the guy a fair old spray, or so he said. The group told me how shit scared they were of Rocket.

What he should have done was to praise them :rolleyes:
Most coaches would have been upset in that instance, why does that make him old school?

If Rocket's only method of communicating was through fear then he would not have lasted as long.
Coaching isnt all just teaching.

[Ghost Dog]

What he should have done was to praise them :rolleyes:
Most coaches would have been upset in that instance, why does that make him old school?

If Rocket's only method of communicating was through fear then he would not have lasted as long.
Coaching isnt all just teaching.


The spray is old fashioned. Coaching isn't all teaching. But it is a big part of it.

[bornadog]

The spray is old fashioned. Coaching isn't all teaching. But it is a big part of it.

Rocket is an excellent teacher. Your views are based on what you see on TV during game time. Have a look at the antics of Malthouse during a game. Its an emotional game.

When you went down to training, Rocket was not screaming and abusing people, he was teaching.

[Eastdog]

Rocket is an excellent teacher. Your views are based on what you see on TV during game time. Have a look at the antics of Malthouse during a game. Its an emotional game.

When you went down to training, Rocket was not screaming and abusing people, he was teaching.

I agree bornadog. Rocket was a very good mentor. I think overall he did a good job with list we had when he came in at the helm. Would of liked to make a Grand Final but thats the way it went. With Macca now it is kind of a new era.

[bornadog]

I agree bornadog. Rocket was a very good mentor. I think overall he did a good job with list we had when he came in at the helm. Would of liked to make a Grand Final but thats the way it went. With Macca now it is kind of a new era.

Yes, he had 7 years and now for new blood.

Lets hope BMac knows what he is doing as its a big step from assistant to Head Coach.

[Eastdog]

Yes, he had 7 years and now for new blood.

Lets hope BMac knows what he is doing as its a big step from assistant to Head Coach.

Yes. Now to see what Macca can do with the team. I met Macca at the East meets West Family Day and got his autograph:)

[Ghost Dog]

Rocket is an excellent teacher. Your views are based on what you see on TV during game time. Have a look at the antics of Malthouse during a game. Its an emotional game.

When you went down to training, Rocket was not screaming and abusing people, he was teaching.

I'm not having a go at Rocket. I never said he wasn't an excellent teacher. I'm saying that that specific behavior, by him, or anyone, is old school. and hey, sometimes old school works!

[stefoid]

Grant on Grant:

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/129517/default.aspx

[LostDoggy]

The spray is old fashioned. Coaching isn't all teaching. But it is a big part of it.
You'll find people get upset even today and will so in the future.
Its old, current and new school. Why can't a spray at the right player at the right moment be used any longer?

Teaching is maybe 10% of senior coaching at afl level. You find tactics, people management, psychology, opposition study, media, etc just as big if not bigger.

[Ghost Dog]

You'll find people get upset even today and will so in the future.
Its old, current and new school. Why can't a spray at the right player at the right moment be used any longer?

Teaching is maybe 10% of senior coaching at afl level. You find tactics, people management, psychology, opposition study, media, etc just as big if not bigger.


"As a coach - it's a bit like being a parent or a teacher or a boss in any form of work
B McCartney

think BMac's teaching pedigree will come in very handy for our forwards this season, having a young group.
Ayce Cordy remains a diamond in the rough and very excited to see if he can have an impact.

The modern coach doesn't smash the coaching box up anymore.

One study found: an overly aggressive coach may end up with a timid team that is too afraid to innovate for fear of incurring a tongue-lashing.

[bornadog]

"As a coach - it's a bit like being a parent or a teacher or a boss in any form of work
B McCartney

think BMac's teaching pedigree will come in very handy for our forwards this season, having a young group.
Ayce Cordy remains a diamond in the rough and very excited to see if he can have an impact.

The modern coach doesn't smash the coaching box up anymore.

One study found: an overly aggressive coach may end up with a timid team that is too afraid to innovate for fear of incurring a tongue-lashing.

so your saying Malthouse is not a good coach.

[Ghost Dog]

so your saying Malthouse is not a good coach.

clearly he had room for improvement in 2011 didn't he? ^_^

Getting back to the thread, it was hinted that Brian may have a possible role in the forward line. Wonder if, in absence of Barry, he might fill that role now and then.

[LostDoggy]

"As a coach - it's a bit like being a parent or a teacher or a boss in any form of work
B McCartney
I think you need to taught that a bit doesn't equal a big part of it as you mentioned.
ATM McCartney hasn't coached 1 AFL game so I'm not sure its a good source yet.


The modern coach doesn't smash the coaching box up anymore.

One study found: an overly aggressive coach may end up with a timid team that is too afraid to innovate for fear of incurring a tongue-lashing.

Was this study found in the AFL coaches hand book? I believe thoughts like that have been around for ages. Hardily new school or modern.
You are also Concluding a spray means loss of control when I believe many coaches that do use it know exactly what they are doing and believe it works given the right situation.

[Ghost Dog]

I think you need to taught that a bit doesn't equal a big part of it as you mentioned.
ATM McCartney hasn't coached 1 AFL game so I'm not sure its a good source yet.



Was this study found in the AFL coaches hand book? I believe thoughts like that have been around for ages. Hardily new school or modern.
You are also Concluding a spray means loss of control when I believe many coaches that do use it know exactly what they are doing and believe it works given the right situation.

fair enough. anyway back to the forward line.

[AndrewP6]

Yes I do...

I was at the Lion Bar ( ? ) at Melbourne central once, chatting to a bunch of players ( can't remember where from ) who had rocket come and do some clinics with them. During said clinic, one of them was quietly chatting to his mate while rocket was attempting to address the group. He gave the guy a fair old spray, or so he said. The group told me how shit scared they were of Rocket.
.

I'd give them a spray too, that's just plain rudeness, and my students hear it if they're holding conversations while I'm talking to the class. As Aretha sang, R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

I wonder how many of that group you met are still playing AFL...

[Eastdog]

clearly he had room for improvement in 2011 didn't he? ^_^

Getting back to the thread, it was hinted that Brian may have a possible role in the forward line. Wonder if, in absence of Barry, he might fill that role now and then.

Im not sure about him playing there as of course his naturally a fullback. His fitness must be very good for him to play up forward. I agree though that he can be very effective late in games up there when we are behind by a small margin. Matthew Panos I think will be a big ask if we rely on him up forward as this will be his first season and his still young.

[jeemak]

clearly he had room for improvement in 2011 didn't he? ^_^

Getting back to the thread, it was hinted that Brian may have a possible role in the forward line. Wonder if, in absence of Barry, he might fill that role now and then.

I think Lake would be capable of kicking a few goals for us up forward, but surely the best FB we've had at the club for a number of years who until recently was in the top couple of defenders in the competition would be best used in defense when we're most likely going to be under the pump in that area.

This year needs to be used to develop our forward talent. Not sure if Lake up forward would assist that development.

[Eastdog]

I think Lake would be capable of kicking a few goals for us up forward, but surely the best FB we've had at the club for a number of years who until recently was in the top couple of defenders in the competition would be best used in defense when we're most likely going to be under the pump in that area.

This year needs to be used to develop our forward talent. Not sure if Lake up forward would assist that development.

I agree jeemak. Lake is suited at fullback in the defence where he has been so good there since this recent setback. We need this season to develop the forward line. Panos will probably play there regularly to get the games into him but don't expect to much.

[Hotdog60]

Lakes approach to goal would always worry me as a forward, I'd keep the AA fullback in the back line and let him sneak forward on the odd occasion.

[GVGjr]

I can understand why we might be tempted to throw him forward on occasions but right at this moment we should be planning on him being the full back for the season.

[Ghost Dog]

I can understand why we might be tempted to throw him forward on occasions but right at this moment we should be planning on him being the full back for the season.

I understand. Although I think we have a habit of putting our classiest players behind the ball. Just once, I would like to see Murph and Lake in the same forward line. Coaches headache.

We have a history of watching our most talented fill gaps, because we are poor for options. the time goes by with their talents in the backline. Chris Grant as an example. I think Brian has exactly the right attitude and pep to be a forward. A bit of a character, swagger, etc. What hurts his chances is how well he plays down back. He has had some mighty and memorable purple patches.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yva84FYeMeU Brian beats Barry to goal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNKyGQqCvHI Moving forward Brian!

[Before I Die]

I understand. Although I think we have a habit of putting our classiest players behind the ball. Just once, I would like to see Murph and Lake in the same forward line. Coaches headache.

We have a history of watching our most talented fill gaps, because we are poor for options. the time goes by with their talents in the backline. Chris Grant as an example. I think Brian has exactly the right attitude and pep to be a forward. A bit of a character, swagger, etc. What hurts his chances is how well he plays down back. He has had some mighty and memorable purple patches.

I think you mean successful cameos. He has also had some disappointing cameos and has never, ever taken a game by the scruff of the neck as a forward. We have already had this discussion regarding Lake. I think his credibility as a forward relies very heavily on Sockeye Salmon's 19 game rule. Though in his case it is not because he has played less than 19 games in total, just less than 19 games as a forward.

Even if he was as good as Barry, Barry alone wasn't the answer! To be successful next year we need Lake playing well as fullback and at least two of our young forwads figuring in our BF top ten. Give them a chance and throw Brian forward in cameos. If we play Murphy at CHF and Lake at FF then Jones, Grant and Panos have no chance of coming on and we just stagnate for 12 months.

[Ghost Dog]

I think you mean successful cameos. He has also had some disappointing cameos and has never, ever taken a game by the scruff of the neck as a forward. We have already had this discussion regarding Lake. I think his credibility as a forward relies very heavily on Sockeye Salmon's 19 game rule. Though in his case it is not because he has played less than 19 games in total, just less than 19 games as a forward.

Even if he was as good as Barry, Barry alone wasn't the answer! To be successful next year we need Lake playing well as fullback and at least two of our young forwads figuring in our BF top ten. Give them a chance and throw Brian forward in cameos. If we play Murphy at CHF and Lake at FF then Jones, Grant and Panos have no chance of coming on and we just stagnate for 12 months.

Sorry, I meant so many purple patches as a full back.
Eagerly await the rematch of Buddy and Brian in 2012

[Before I Die]

Sorry, I meant so many purple patches as a full back.
Eagerly await the rematch of Buddy and Brian in 2012

No worries, that I would agree with. :)

[LostDoggy]

Sherman, Roughead, Higgins
Gia, Panos, Jones

Rotating: Cooney, Dalhaus, Picken

Minson and Cordy to ruck.

Like to see Jonescloser to goals, may improve his kicking. Playing two tall lead up forwards could stretch opposition backs. Roughead could easily hold down a traditional CHF role. Mobile flankers and a crumbing forward.

[Mantis]

Sherman, Roughead, Higgins
Gia, Panos, Jones

Rotating: Cooney, Dalhaus, Picken

Minson and Cordy to ruck.

Like to see Jonescloser to goals, may improve his kicking. Playing two tall lead up forwards could stretch opposition backs. Roughead could easily hold down a traditional CHF role. Mobile flankers and a crumbing forward.

What have you seen from Roughy (that I have missed) that makes you believe this?

[Swoop]

Are our expectations on Panos who is yet to play a single AFL over the top? I see people naming him as a FF or setting him a 40 goal pass mark which is insane.

Also, with regards to Roughead holding down a key position spot as some have alluded to, last year showed he can pinch hit at times but he does become a defensive liability with his inability to apply pressure or a second effort due to his lack of mobility. He is in the same mould of Minson in that he has the ability to push forward and take a grab and pinch a goal but he isn't a long term option for a quarter let alone an entire match.

As an opposition coach I would be quite pleased to have Roughead or Panos holding a permanent key position and I would encourage their opponents to push them wide and direct them to be involved offensively and try create plsy through them.

Its quite obvious that our forward line is full of holes and our ability to rotate and manipulate match ups is crucial to our success as is our execution of the forward press but it is worth noting this will be something that may take years to perfect and which will see some short term pain as we adapt.

I would argue that while Jones will still contribute he is probably 12 months away from genuinely influencing games and he is much further developed than any of Cordy, Roughead, Panos & Grantn sok it's worth keeping perspective especially on our expectations. I for one will be interested watching it all unfold in 2012

[jeemak]

Excellent post Swoop.

I would say however, that Grant and Jones aren't too far apart in terms of being ready to influence a game, or provide some hope in 2012.

We all know Grant had an ordinary year last year, but I'm not ready to put a line through his name right now. He's a player that has come from a long way back physically and mentally, and he still has some way to go on both fronts. A solid step forward in effort and output this year resulting in similar results to 2010 should provide us with some hope as far as he is concerned (we also need to bare in mind how tough it was for him as a second or third option in 2011, in a forward line that was starved of clean opportunity compared to years gone by).

As far as I'm concerned, apart from Jones we don't have a player on our list that has the same potential to become a tall contributor to the extent that he does.

[Mofra]

Sherman, Roughead, Higgins
Gia, Panos, Jones

Rotating: Cooney, Dalhaus, Picken

Minson and Cordy to ruck.
That would mean one of Minson & Cordy are on the bench which will seriously rob us of run.

For mine, Jones is a natural CHF and if the kid can hold don the hardest position to play on the ground we should be thankful.

Minson no 1 ruck, Roughy & Cordy to battle it our for no 2 ruck spending alot of time forward, with a support cast that may or may not include Panos & Grant (they should only be played if form warrants it, not for any ideas of "structure".

I like the idea of Cooney forward with Gia - Cooney is almost as smart a footballer as Gia, with alot more athleticism. Dalhaus will be a pernanent fixture, and Sherman to play alot as the "high" forward.

[Swoop]

Is it just me but I can't seem to recall Cooney playing a quality game as a dangerous forward. He has led well on a few occassions but most of his goals have come from pushing forward through the midfield, can he really be damaging as a forward?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Is it just me but I can't seem to recall Cooney playing a quality game as a dangerous forward. He has led well on a few occassions but most of his goals have come from pushing forward through the midfield, can he really be damaging as a forward?

This.

I've never seen Cooney impact games as a forward.

It's been his ability to push forward from the midfield that enabled him to kick bags of goals up untl 2008/9.

[LostDoggy]

This.

I've never seen Cooney impact games as a forward.

It's been his ability to push forward from the midfield that enabled him to kick bags of goals up untl 2008/9.

I don't remember the details but I do remember a few games early in his career where he played out of the goalsquare a bit and was quite a handful on the lead with his pace and game sense.

There was also another game maybe 5 or 6 years ago -- again I can't remember the details -- where I think he kicked 6 or so playing predominantly out of the goalsquare in the last quarter and a half when the opponent couldn't get the right match-up on him. He's quite big for a fast dude, and quite fast for a big dude.. a bit Johnno-esque.

ps. Having said all that, I said in another thread that I don't think he should play forward, but actually play the McLeod role off half-back.

[Greystache]

This.

I've never seen Cooney impact games as a forward.

It's been his ability to push forward from the midfield that enabled him to kick bags of goals up untl 2008/9.

In his Brownlow year we played the Swans at the SCG, we struggled in the first quarter, Cooney played most of the 2nd quarter out of the goal square and kicked 4 goals in a quarter.

[DragzLS1]

Cooney anywhere on the ground will help our forward line.

Either running off half back, through the middle delivering quality balls to our forwards or actually being in the forward line.. He is a brownlow medalist and anywhere he plays will benefit the team! Hope to see everybody get a run in the forward line and lets see who works best where.
Skinner is looking promising atm although it is only NAB cup.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

In his Brownlow year we played the Swans at the SCG, we struggled in the first quarter, Cooney played most of the 2nd quarter out of the goal square and kicked 4 goals in a quarter.

I do rememebr that game, we kicked straight and Cooney booted 5 from memory. I thought he played at least 80% in the midfield though.

[Greystache]

I do rememebr that game, we kicked straight and Cooney booted 5 from memory. I thought he played at least 80% in the midfield though.

He did, it was only the 2nd quarter he played forward, but he kicked 4 in that quarter (it may have even been 5), so he had a pretty big impact.

[Go_Dogs]

I recall Cooney spending some time forward, particularly earlier in his career. He's got great hands, pace of the mark and a reasonable leap at the ball. He can kick too. I think he'll go alright, and really is not too dissimilar from Brad Johnson for mine.

[Mofra]

Cooney shades Johnno by a good 3 inches, although Johnno was extremely strong for his size - I think in his time at the club only West had his measure for strength to weight ratio.

[DragzLS1]

Cooney has out rucked Dean Cox so I would think he has a pretty good leap on him. Thats 15cm in height different let alone the fact Cox prob has longer limbs aswell.. I can see cooney being very affective in the forward line just hope he keeps his body right for the season. If he plays 18 games this year and has a few spells through the middle during a game then I would be very impressed!

[the banker]

Cooney could be a forward gun. His football sense and his natural abilities have the X factor.

[Ghost Dog]

Cooney has out rucked Dean Cox so I would think he has a pretty good leap on him. Thats 15cm in height different let alone the fact Cox prob has longer limbs aswell.. I can see cooney being very affective in the forward line just hope he keeps his body right for the season. If he plays 18 games this year and has a few spells through the middle during a game then I would be very impressed!

Yeah...once.. not sure it would be all the time :D