The squeaky wheel gets the oil

[LostDoggy]

As a club we need to complain, whinge and cry ala North and Melbourne.
Ward leads out the first GWS side and kicks their first goal meanwhile Scully sits and commentates. 1 first round pick compared to 2.
We lost Harbrow who at 22? worth way more to us than Campbell Brown to Hawthorn or the Suns but we got the same compo.

It upsets me to think about either.

[GVGjr]

Ward was a 2nd round pick and I think that came into the calculations for the compensation. I think we deserved more than what we got but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

I'm not sure that because he led out the side and then kicked the first goal is really a consideration into what compensation we should have received.

[chef]

It's something we are going to have to get used to now free agency has started.

[LostDoggy]

Ward was a 2nd round pick and I think that came into the calculations for the compensation. I think we deserved more than what we got but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

I'm not sure that because he led out the side and then kicked the first goal is really a consideration into what compensation we should have received.

Gary Albett wasn't a first round pick. Ward achieved way more in his career thats only 1 year longer than Scullys. Ward was Second round at 19 which was just about first round now and in comprised drafts.
They pick and choose the rules that suit them at the time.

[Flamethrower]

It's something we are going to have to get used to now free agency has started.

Spot on. We are lucky we got any compensation at all. In most major professional competitions there is no compensation for players lost to free agency.

I cant wait for the day that we can bring Will Hoskin-Elliott and Jonathon Patton home to Victoria as payback for poaching Callan Ward.

[LostDoggy]

Spot on. We are lucky we got any compensation at all. In most major professional competitions there is no compensation for players lost to free agency.
We are so lucky cos we could have sold prior his contract running out and got some money into the club that it doesn't really need.



I cant wait for the day that we can bring Will Hoskin-Elliott and Jonathon Patton home to Victoria as payback for poaching Callan Ward.

Do you think they'll come to us as we have a great history of success, a great profile with tv /blockbuster games/crowds and more money than other VIC clubs?

[ledge]

We are so lucky cos we could have sold prior his contract running out and got some money into the club that it doesn't really need.



Do you think they'll come to us as we have a great history of success, a great profile with tv /blockbuster games/crowds and more money than other VIC clubs?

Well hopefully Mr Elliott makes his money and decides to come home after his 2 years, homesickness, can be positive :D

[Ghost Dog]

Well hopefully Mr Elliott makes his money and decides to come home after his 2 years, homesickness, can be positive :D

I can't imagine how it would be possible to land him.

[ledge]

I can't imagine how it would be possible to land him.

Hopefully Wallace is coaching GWS by then, be easy ;)

[Desipura]

Well hopefully Mr Elliott makes his money and decides to come home after his 2 years, homesickness, can be positive :D

Nth Sunshine boy who is close to his parents! I hope we go hard for him.

[chef]

Nth Sunshine boy who is close to his parents! I hope we go hard for him.

Was he a Dogs supporter as a kid?

[Desipura]

Was he a Dogs supporter as a kid? Not sure, Im 99% sure I went to school with his dad.

[bornadog]

Not sure, Im 99% sure I went to school with his dad.

Does that make you feel old:p

[Desipura]

Does that make you feel old:p
You should know ;) to answer your question........yes

[Sedat]

I thought our Head of Football Operations and CEO said in the media late last year they they would demand band 1 compensation for Ward. That went well....

It is a disgrace that Scully is deemed to be twice the player that Ward is according to the AFL's foolproof system of compensating clubs for losing out of contract players. Don Lane's wheel would have more credibility if it was the mechanism used to evaluate compensation.

[Remi Moses]

Was he a Dogs supporter as a kid?

Pretty sure I read in the local paper he barracks for Collingwood.
Think you'll find a relative played there,but they're going to have a few apples fall out of the tree.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

After the honeymoon period of 3-4 years wears off, and if these clubs are still average, there's going to be opportunities to snare a few players IMO.

The love affair of playing for the 'new clubs' will wear thin if they are going absolutely nowhere, and drawing small crowds. No doubt there would be players who would then look to move to successful clubs with a genuine history and supporter base. The 'go home' factor could be strong in this area too.

I don't think it's a given these two clubs will be dominating. I hope they both fail miserably.

[Ghost Dog]

I thought our Head of Football Operations and CEO said in the media late last year they they would demand band 1 compensation for Ward. That went well....

It is a disgrace that Scully is deemed to be twice the player that Ward is according to the AFL's foolproof system of compensating clubs for losing out of contract players. Don Lane's wheel would have more credibility if it was the mechanism used to evaluate compensation.

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2009/10/23/1225790/246574-don-lane.jpg

The squeaky wheel of fortune you reckon Sedat? :D

Sorry to blind you all with this.

[LostDoggy]

It is a disgrace that Scully is deemed to be twice the player that Ward is according to the AFL's foolproof system of compensating clubs for losing out of contract players.

Scully isn't even necessarily once the player that Ward is at this point. As I've said before and will say again, repeatedly, Scully has done f-all as an AFL player -- wasn't even the best player at a rubbish team that hasn't made finals in half a decade.

Ridiculous that he was rated the same level as Gablett Jr, the best player of a multiple premiership team.

You know, I actually think Ward's compo was correct, it's just that Scully's compo was so completely wrong that it makes it an injustice, and only happened because of his 'profile'. It's like giving out compo based on Mike Sheahan's player ratings (ie. rubbish).

[LostDoggy]

I can see why Bert was called moon face. It's huge.

[bornadog]

I can see why Bert was called moon face. It's huge.

Even bigger than Ernie Sigley:D

[Go_Dogs]

It would have been good if they'd had some further compensation options, perhaps a first and second round pick directly after our selections would have been more appropriate.

As it is, I can't see the AFL doing a backflip on it.

[LostDoggy]

Melbourne complained so they level 1 compensation. We should have kicked a huge stink but didn't so hence the thread title.

[westdog54]

Melbourne complained so they level 1 compensation. We should have kicked a huge stink but didn't so hence the thread title.

Did they?

All I recall is Scully's compensation being higher because his contract was astronomical.

[LostDoggy]

Did they?

All I recall is Scully's compensation being higher because his contract was astronomical.

Of course they did. All we heard throughout was how he might leave and no. 1 pick.

[Topdog]

I'm not sure that because he led out the side and then kicked the first goal is really a consideration into what compensation we should have received.

Kicking the first goal...of course not. However being chosen as captain of the club is a fair indicator that GWS rated Callan ahead of Scully.

[Ghost Dog]

Isn't this crying over spilt milk? It's done and dusted now.
If every single bulldog fan had signed a petition - do you think the outcome would have been any different?
I'm not sure what else we could have done.

[Topdog]

Actually been strong ala Geelong and Melbourne

[Sedat]

Our leaders went the denial option in the media all last year and did not even contemplate the prospect of Ward having signed with GWS until about Round 23. Only then when the bleeding obvious was apparent did they come out with some feeble 'demand' for band 1 compensation for Ward in the media. It was a hollow threat that the AFL rightly took no notice of. End result - we were passive and feeble in our media dealings on the issue (especially compared to Melbourne), and we did not make enough noise about the compensation issue. GWS actually felt a little guilty and threw in Reid as a sweetener - I can't think of any reason other than guilt to explain why they would agree to giving up a 3rd round pick for a player about to be delisted.

[Drunken Bum]

I can't think of any reason other than guilt to explain why they would agree to giving up a 3rd round pick for a player about to be delisted.

Apart from the fact they never gave up a third round pick, the only thing they gave up was a spot on their list, which they have plenty of mind you, the third round pick was plucked from thin air along with all the other compensation picks.

[Ghost Dog]

Our leaders went the denial option in the media all last year and did not even contemplate the prospect of Ward having signed with GWS until about Round 23. Only then when the bleeding obvious was apparent did they come out with some feeble 'demand' for band 1 compensation for Ward in the media. It was a hollow threat that the AFL rightly took no notice of. End result - we were passive and feeble in our media dealings on the issue (especially compared to Melbourne), and we did not make enough noise about the compensation issue. GWS actually felt a little guilty and threw in Reid as a sweetener - I can't think of any reason other than guilt to explain why they would agree to giving up a 3rd round pick for a player about to be delisted.

Bulldogs chief executive Simon Garlick said the key criteria - age and remuneration - pointed to "top echelon" compensation.

"We think a minimum of two first-rounders is appropriate from our perspective," he said.

"We used a first-rounder on him and then put four years of solid development into him.

"He's a 21-year-old who's had a breakout year. He is a 10-year, 200-game player minimum."
source : http://www.heraldsun.com.au/archives/old-sport-pages/western-bulldogs-for-two-first-round-picks-as-callan-ward-leaves-for-gws/story-fn69a32t-1226129573267


I'm not sure what else everyone wanted the club to do. I'm not happy about it, but I feel the club did 'sqeak' as much as they could. They went public, said they were not happy. The media picked it up. What else could / should have been done? They were NEVER going to give us two first round picks once their offer was made public. The AFL doesn't back track and you can't blame the club without knowing the full story. Nobody really has any idea how much backroom stuff went on or how hard they tried to get the best deal. I'm sure they tried their best. If anything, I guess they were a bit in denial for most of the season about his intentions. Finally, I wasn't happy that Ward was played against Freo. Royally shafted.

[Bulldog4life]

Bulldogs chief executive Simon Garlick said the key criteria - age and remuneration - pointed to "top echelon" compensation.

"We think a minimum of two first-rounders is appropriate from our perspective," he said.

"We used a first-rounder on him and then put four years of solid development into him.

"He's a 21-year-old who's had a breakout year. He is a 10-year, 200-game player minimum."
source : http://www.heraldsun.com.au/archives/old-sport-pages/western-bulldogs-for-two-first-round-picks-as-callan-ward-leaves-for-gws/story-fn69a32t-1226129573267


I'm not sure what else everyone wanted the club to do. I'm not happy about it, but I feel the club did 'sqeak' as much as they could. They went public, said they were not happy. The media picked it up. What else could / should have been done? They were NEVER going to give us two first round picks once their offer was made public. The AFL doesn't back track.

I agree with you Ghost Dog. In my opinion it is a waste of time worrying about it too.

[LostDoggy]

I'm not sure what else everyone wanted the club to do. I'm not happy about it, but I feel the club did 'sqeak' as much as they done

Maybe they should complained more than once and not 2 seconds before the compensation announcement was made.
It was pretty obvious to everyone he was going well before round 24. The club sat on their hands til after Ward made his departure public.

[Ghost Dog]

Maybe they should complained more than once and not 2 seconds before the compensation announcement was made.
It was pretty obvious to everyone he was going well before round 24. The club sat on their hands til after Ward made his departure public.

Ok - so maybe they should have put more pressure on Ward? I believe Port did this with one of their players - demanding a yes or no answer half way through the season. Perhaps they acted in good faith, with consideration of his local origins, all the work they had put into him and felt confident he had a good chance of staying; not wanting to put pressure on him. Well, blew up in our faces didn't it.

[LostDoggy]

Ok - so maybe they should have put more pressure on Ward? I believe Port did this with one of their players - demanding a yes or no answer half way through the season. Perhaps they acted in good faith, with consideration of his local origins, all the work they had put into him and felt confident he had a good chance of staying; not wanting to put pressure on him. Well, blew up in our faces didn't it.
Sedat's post is spot on.
We were naive and/or in denial to think he wasnt going. We didn't contemplate losing him and therefore didn't even think what we deserve in compensation for him til 5 past midnight.

I want to know how this could happen and if it could happen again.
Have we learnt it pays to cry and whinge yet?

[Dancin' Douggy]

Bulldogs chief executive Simon Garlick said the key criteria - age and remuneration - pointed to "top echelon" compensation.

"We think a minimum of two first-rounders is appropriate from our perspective," he said.

"We used a first-rounder on him and then put four years of solid development into him.

"He's a 21-year-old who's had a breakout year. He is a 10-year, 200-game player minimum."
source : http://www.heraldsun.com.au/archives/old-sport-pages/western-bulldogs-for-two-first-round-picks-as-callan-ward-leaves-for-gws/story-fn69a32t-1226129573267


I'm not sure what else everyone wanted the club to do. I'm not happy about it, but I feel the club did 'sqeak' as much as they could. They went public, said they were not happy. The media picked it up. What else could / should have been done? They were NEVER going to give us two first round picks once their offer was made public. The AFL doesn't back track and you can't blame the club without knowing the full story. Nobody really has any idea how much backroom stuff went on or how hard they tried to get the best deal. I'm sure they tried their best. If anything, I guess they were a bit in denial for most of the season about his intentions. Finally, I wasn't happy that Ward was played against Freo. Royally shafted.


I do remember Garlick saying that. So yes, the club DID "squeak".
But the club should have ROARED, and Railed, and agitated and demanded and harrassed.
They could have grabbed the back page of the Herald Sun and thrown a tantrum. In my opinion that's what they should have done. I also believe there was an appeals process available to challenge the compensation which we chose not to utilise.

As a long time member I was disappointed with the club. I was also disappointed that he was 'allowed' to play that last game.

[bornadog]

Maybe they should complained more than once and not 2 seconds before the compensation announcement was made.
It was pretty obvious to everyone he was going well before round 24. The club sat on their hands til after Ward made his departure public.

Eddie said if Pendelbury goes to GWS he will personally put up a tent outside their offices and start working on every single GWS player to sign them up for Collingwood. One by one until he gets adequate compensation. No doubt he will do the same if they try it on Cloke.

We are just pussies when it comes to the AFL

[AndrewP6]

Eddie said if Pendelbury goes to GWS he will personally put up a tent outside their offices and start working on every single GWS player to sign them up for Collingwood. One by one until he gets adequate compensation. No doubt he will do the same if they try it on Cloke.

We are just pussies when it comes to the AFL

I thought he sounded like a complete w***er when he said those things. I'd be embarrassed if anyone from our club carried on in that way.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I wouldn't

[Topdog]

I thought he sounded like a complete w***er when he said those things. I'd be embarrassed if anyone from our club carried on in that way.

he did sound like a wanker, a passionate wanker who won't let someone bully him. We sounded very polite and professional. Probably didn't even ask for lube.

[Greystache]

I thought he sounded like a complete w***er when he said those things. I'd be embarrassed if anyone from our club carried on in that way.

Agreed. He sounded like a bogan preaching to bogans. Rolling out a bunch of rediculous bullshit because you want the ignorant masses to think there are different rules for your club because you're special. I'd be embarrassed if the president of my club served that up, I'd also be insulted that he believed I'm too stupid to not know any better.

[AndrewP6]

We sounded very polite and professional.

Fine by me.

[LostDoggy]

Reliance on AFL distributions to survive can't help the clubs management in dealing with these sort of issues. Surely Garlic and co have to tread a little cautiously. Yes it sucks but until our members and supporters pull their fingers out and get behind the club, pushing 35000+ members consistently, only then can I see the Dogs being able to stand up to the AFL on these type of issues.

[Rocco Jones]

Agreed. He sounded like a bogan preaching to bogans. Rolling out a bunch of rediculous bullshit because you want the ignorant masses to think there are different rules for your club because you're special. I'd be embarrassed if the president of my club served that up, I'd also be insulted that he believed I'm too stupid to not know any better.

Totally with you. Sounds like the PM-in-waiting.

[bornadog]

Agreed. He sounded like a bogan preaching to bogans. Rolling out a bunch of rediculous bullshit because you want the ignorant masses to think there are different rules for your club because you're special. I'd be embarrassed if the president of my club served that up, I'd also be insulted that he believed I'm too stupid to not know any better.


Reliance on AFL distributions to survive can't help the clubs management in dealing with these sort of issues. Surely Garlic and co have to tread a little cautiously. Yes it sucks but until our members and supporters pull their fingers out and get behind the club, pushing 35000+ members consistently, only then can I see the Dogs being able to stand up to the AFL on these type of issues.

You know and we will get no where by rolling over and coping it up the proverbial, just like the past 100 years.

Lets continue as we are and don't complain, and get raped and pillaged, lose good players very little compensation and shit stadium deals, no blockbusters and little Free to air and go along our merry way. Let the bigger clubs get the best deals and build their membership base from 30k, 40k, 60k, 70k and eventually hit 10ok and we can be happy we reached 32k at some stage.

Maybe Eddie is a bogan but he stands up for his club and doesn't want to get pushed around.

For once I would like to see some passion from the club leaders and fight for something.

[Desipura]

We are the nice guys, not wanting to rock the boat. We are not one of the powerful clubs and rely on good will from other clubs in regards to poaching our players.
We want go aggressively after a big named player that a club does not want to lose and "please if you can do the same by us?"
Nice guys come last......... Unfortunately.

[LostDoggy]

You know and we will get no where by rolling over and coping it up the proverbial, just like the past 100 years.

Lets continue as we are and don't complain, and get raped and pillaged, lose good players very little compensation and shit stadium deals, no blockbusters and little Free to air and go along our merry way. Let the bigger clubs get the best deals and build their membership base from 30k, 40k, 60k, 70k and eventually hit 10ok and we can be happy we reached 32k at some stage.

Maybe Eddie is a bogan but he stands up for his club and doesn't want to get pushed around.

For once I would like to see some passion from the club leaders and fight for something.

OK, say they did, and the AFL withdraws the special funding. Goodbye Bulldogs.

I don't know how many threads we're going to start about this sort of thing, but my answer is always the same - until supporters get behind the club, it's all a pipe-dream to think we'll get stadium deals, blockbusters, etc. You've got to do the work before you earn the rewards.

[Sedat]

Maybe they should complained more than once and not 2 seconds before the compensation announcement was made.
Exactly. Venom Denham was telling all and sundry that Ward had signed on before the start of the season, likewise Scully - maybe we took no notice of Denham's story because he normally has a 10% strike rate with the truth. Anyway Melbourne went on the offensive from the get-go, arranging a Scully press conference before the start of the season so as to make any future departure by him seem like a massive story and ensuring that Melbourne would be given prime consideration when being compensated. Ward by contrast, who is (today) a vastly better player on every conceivable level than Scully and is only a year or so older, barely raised a couple of lines in the media all season and was therefore never considered a big story or a prize catch. Personally I would have liked our club to make as big a song and dance about Ward all season as what Melbourne did with Scully. We were every bit as passive with Harbrow 12 months earlier - the definition of insanity is to do exactly the same thing over and over again and expect a different result.

Melbourne rely on AFL special assistance almost as much as we do, but they were well and truly prepared to make Scully a big news story all season and therefore paint the AFL into a tight corner when it came to evaluating compensation in the event that he would leave. We very easily could have done the same, and we should have. No other club apart from the Dogs have lost two starting 18 players who are U-23 and likely 200+ gamers to the expansion clubs - we can dress it up any way we like, that is a very poor result by those in charge of list management and contract negotiations.

[LostDoggy]

I kicked and screamed on WOOF (and elsewhere) more than the club did all year.. yet club apologists kept telling me that I was:

a. mistaken (ie. Ward was staying or hadn't made up his mind yet), and
b. annoying and should go away (just like the club did, unlike what Geelong and Melbourne and Collingwood do).

It's no fun watching your club get screwed in real-time while everyone sticks their heads in the sand and pretends it's not happening. And worse, even AFTER it's happened, many people would rather pretend that it didn't really happen the way it did and we couldn't really have done anything about it. It's almost like some people NEED to believe everything people in power tell them so they can tell themselves that she'll be 'right and everything is rosy and pretend that the world works they way they want it to, rather than maybe having to grow up and face reality and realise that they are lied to on a daily basis.

[Maddog37]

I agree with your sentiment although previously I would maybe not have. But tell me how did your kicking and screaming benefit you Lantern?

[bornadog]

OK, say they did, and the AFL withdraws the special funding. Goodbye Bulldogs.

I don't know how many threads we're going to start about this sort of thing, but my answer is always the same - until supporters get behind the club, it's all a pipe-dream to think we'll get stadium deals, blockbusters, etc. You've got to do the work before you earn the rewards.

Why can't we at least speak up when we get screwed, like the Ward deal?

[LostDoggy]

OK, say they did, and the AFL withdraws the special funding. Goodbye Bulldogs.

I don't know how many threads we're going to start about this sort of thing, but my answer is always the same - until supporters get behind the club, it's all a pipe-dream to think we'll get stadium deals, blockbusters, etc. You've got to do the work before you earn the rewards.

The cure are the exact problems you are talking. To get more members you need more exposure. From memory we have a pretty good supporter to member ratio anyway.

Not sure what why we can't complain when there are is an obvious injustice.
Rather we smile as we are copping it?

[LostDoggy]

I agree with your sentiment although previously I would maybe not have. But tell me how did your kicking and screaming benefit you Lantern?

Haha -- I was saying that if the club did the equivalent of my kicking and screaming they may have gotten a better outcome.

Conversely, even if they didn't, supporters like a club that stands up for itself, because it's an extension of themselves, and no one wants to feel like a coward. If a club rolls over and is too scared to speak up because it's the lapdog of the AFL, no supporter wants to feel like that represents them, because it just shows a great lack of self-respect. The whole dying on feet rather than living on knees principle.

If we don't stand for anything, how can we be surprised when we can't attract new supporters? If you were looking for a club to follow, would you be attracted to a club that is proud and strong and knew what it stood for, or a cowering club with its cap in hand too scared to squeak?

I certainly felt embarrassed by how easily we just took the injustice of GC and GWS's poaching -- in this case there was no contradiction between knowing that they help the competition exist (and by extension help the Dogs exist), yet not wanting to be the club that is the most screwed. The distinction is that as a collective, all the clubs agreed that the new teams and TV rights were good for the comp, but then when it came to player poaching, the system was set up to be a direct competition between 16 other clubs to see who would have their players poached. Our job then was to either NOT have our players poached, or get good compensation if we did (there is no contradiction between this, and still being a good citizen of the AFL). The reality is other clubs managed to hang on to their players better than we did, and/or managed to get compensated better than we did -- this is not an issue of being ungrateful to the AFL, it's a matter of competing with 16 other clubs so that we come out relatively ahead of the others (as is the definition of a competition). As it stands, from a 'GWS/GC poaching' perspective, we were the wooden spooners, both in fair compensation and quality of players lost. Nothing to be proud of there.

To say that we shouldn't have competed as hard as we could from a GC/GWS poaching perspective because we rely on the AFL for our existence is the equivalent of saying that we should go out there and lose games or not win too much or not go too hard for a flag so as not to piss off the AFL. Completely different issues -- one is making responsible decisions as part of a collective (supporting the existence of GWS and GC), the other is competing as hard as we can as a competitor in a cut-throat competition so we don't end up the worst off of all the clubs (and further than ever from a flag).

---

To answer your question from a personal perspective however, all my kicking and screaming has given me the satisfaction of being proven right, and of being able to say "I told you so". It's not much, but it's surprisingly satisfying. Maybe as Dogs fans we just take whatever small wins we can get.

[LostDoggy]

North this pre-season will report when someone at the club farts. They are bordering on any publicity is good publicity. Funny how they have more members than us yet have a smaller geographic area and similar prospects.

[JohnGentStand]

I have to agree with your sentiment Lantern. We should never fear standing up and being counted. Apathy is as good as surrender. Maybe as supporters it is our duty to ensure the club realizes how we should be represented and how important it is to us that losses hurt. The battle is important, not just the result.