Whats our bigger issue?

[Rance Fan]

So what our bigger issue?
No forward line or poor midfield delivery?
We need more goals!

[Ghost Dog]

So what our bigger issue?
No forward line or poor midfield delivery?
We need more goals!

Skills!!
The amount of times we had numbers forward, the run of play, and someone stuffs up a little handpass or short kick.
Liam Jones, just missed a few very easy ones. Grant - Higgins - Dahlhaus - all missed fairly easy ones today.

[Eastdog]

Lake was very poor today. I think our forward as I think our midfield is not too bad.

[SlimPickens]

Lake was very poor today. I think our forward as I think our midfield is not too bad.

So Lake is our biggest problem???

[Eastdog]

So Lake is our biggest problem???

No I don't think he is our biggest problem it is just that he hasn't got back to his best yet at that might take some time. Don't forget though Lake is getting on a little now.

[mjp]

Lack of flexibility in defensive match-ups versus a MASSIVE side. Better opportunity against Adelaide.

[SlimPickens]

No I don't think he is our biggest problem it is just that he hasn't got back to his best yet at that might take some time. Don't forget though Lake is getting on a little now.

That's fine. So Lake isn't our biggest issues? Let's keep the thread on track

[AndrewP6]

Skills skills skills skills skills skills.

Our skill level is at times woeful. Little point in getting the ball if you can't do any damage with it (our if you give it straight back)

[LostDoggy]

So what our bigger issue?
No forward line or poor midfield delivery?
We need more goals!

Your looking at the wrong end of the ground , once again we have to focus totally on our defense , Lake is only just making his way back today 8 disposals and 3 marks , Markovic is a solid defender but he needed support 11 disposals 3 marks , Howard is only young and Macca put him in defense as he is a good user of the ball by foot but he had a quiet game 11 disposals 3 marks , Murphy is class but he was outbodied and moved up the ground 19 disposals 3 marks , Addison had a role to play but he's not a Morris clone 12 disposals 4 marks , Hargrave was lively but untidy 24 disposals 7 marks , our backline as named had a total of 8 tackles and thats just not enough pressure

Unless we get our backline balance right our defense will leak more goals than a taller forward line would score

.

[angelopetraglia]

Up into half way through the 3rd Quarter we were in the game. What killed our confidence was not taking our chances. In that 3rd Quarter we kicked 2.6 and they kicked 6.3.

Lack of finishing skill was the issue in that quarter where in open play we were OK.

1. Jones misses a set shot he should have kicked
2. Jones misses an easy chance from 15m
3. Jones misses another easy chance from 15m
4. Dickson misses an easy set shot
5. Higgins plays on to have a shot outside 50m, changes direction to the left foot and butchers it. West Coast mark, run and instantly results in Scholfield marking and then converting from outside 50m.

Those misses, with many two goal turn arounds destroyed our confidence and effectively we capitulated after that.

[comrade]

This might seem overly simplistic but we lack quality players. We have too many on our list who are average or below average at this level.

Our terrible record with first round draft picks will haunt us for a long time. I count 2 genuinely good picks since 2003 (Cooney & Griffen). Every other pick has either yielded either an average or sub par AFL footballer (wallis and smith are question marks. The former looks destined to be just average)

We're chock full of battlers.

I know it sounds obvious but we need to start drafting well in the first round or we'll be destined to be a 4th - 12th team (or lower).

[Ghost Dog]

This might seem overly simplistic but we lack quality players. We have too many on our list who are average or below average at this level.

Our terrible record with first round draft picks will haunt us for a long time. I count 2 genuinely good picks since 2003 (Cooney & Griffen). Every other pick has either yielded either an average or sub par AFL footballer (wallis and smith are question marks. The former looks destined to be just average)

We're chock full of battlers.

I know it sounds obvious but we need to start drafting well in the first round or we'll be destined to be a 4th - 12th team (or lower).

Dahlhaus is not good? Smith is not good? If Jones had jagged those easy ones, you would be singing his praises. He did everything but slot the friggin thing.

[Eastdog]

Dahlhaus is not good? Smith is not good? If Jones had jagged those easy ones, you would be singing his praises. He did everything but slot the friggin thing.

While definitely agree that there are some players not good enough there are one that are very good as well such as Boyd, Cross, Picken, Griffen and in the future Dahlhaus and Smith. Jones is a very good mark but he reminds me a bit like a Travis Cloke although his kicking hasnt been the worst as of late.

[comrade]

Dahlhaus is not good? Smith is not good? If Jones had jagged those easy ones, you would be singing his praises. He did everything but slot the friggin thing.

I'm talking about our multitude of first round picks that just haven't produced. No club gets it right every time but our track record is just about the worst in the league. It's where you pick up the real cream. When you miss out year on year, you end up with a team of grunters, which is exactly what we are.

I never said those players weren't good (though it's still very early days for Smith) and I'm not saying we have NO good players. We just don't have enough.

[GVGjr]

How did you get that


Dahlhaus is not good? Smith is not good? If Jones had jagged those easy ones, you would be singing his praises. He did everything but slot the friggin thing.

From that?


This might seem overly simplistic but we lack quality players. We have too many on our list who are average or below average at this level.

Our terrible record with first round draft picks will haunt us for a long time. I count 2 genuinely good picks since 2003 (Cooney & Griffen). Every other pick has either yielded either an average or sub par AFL footballer (wallis and smith are question marks. The former looks destined to be just average)

We're chock full of battlers.

I know it sounds obvious but we need to start drafting well in the first round or we'll be destined to be a 4th - 12th team (or lower).

I think the point Comrade is making is around the quality of some of our first round draft picks like Cordy, Howard, Wallis, Williams and Higgins etc rather than Dahlhaus (rookie promotion) and the first gamer in Smith

[Eastdog]

Farren Ray and Tim Walsh to name 2 players we picked high in the draft but did not make it with us.

[PedroArvy]

I hate to change the topic, but we were smashed in the ruck. West Coast's clearances killed us, particularly early on. Many of them lead to direct goals. Poor 'ol Will didn't have the athleticism to match it with Naitanui. It was embarrassing. Not sure he is cut out for this level.

[Eastdog]

Wallis I still feel we need to give the kid more time before we can judge.

[Eastdog]

We were smashed in the ruck. West Coast's clearances killed us, particularly early on. Poor 'ol Will didn't have the athleticism to match it with Naitanui. It was embarrassing. Not sure he is cut out of for this level.

Would Ayce Cordy be good in the ruck. Some people say it is amazing Mino is still on our list

[LostDoggy]

Skills skills skills skills skills skills.

Our skill level is at times woeful. Little point in getting the ball if you can't do any damage with it (our if you give it straight back)

Our turnovers are downright embarrasing, to continually kick or handball to the opposition when it seems when they are in space is deplorable, the kicking for goal is inexcusable, the good teams slot the ones the Jones boy and others miss, we can try and be more competitive and attack the contest but we must take our chances when they appear. Our biggest problem and issue is how to correct this flaw, it has been going on for a while now.

[comrade]

Farren Ray and Tim Walsh to name 2 players we picked high in the draft but did not make it with us.

It's not just the guys that didn't make it with us (add Power, McMahon and Everitt as first rounders from the 2000s that ultimately played at other clubs) but guys like Williams, Higgins, Grant, Howard and Cordy that just haven't given us the output required from such valuable picks.

One poster said skills is our biggest issue and I agree but if you nail your first round picks in the draft, the team's overall skill level will increase significantly. Guaranteed.

It's because we've messed up our drafting for the last decade that our skills and decision making are so bad right now.

[bornadog]

I hate to change the topic, but we were smashed in the ruck. West Coast's clearances killed us, particularly early on. Many of them lead to direct goals. Poor 'ol Will didn't have the athleticism to match it with Naitanui. It was embarrassing. Not sure he is cut out of for this level.

Can't agree with this comment. Natuini may be good at leaping but was very poor around the ground picking up only 12 possessions. Minson did well around the ground picking up 20 possessions including 4 inside 50's.

[Ghost Dog]

Can't agree with this comment. Natuini may be good at leaping but was very poor around the ground picking up only 12 possessions. Minson did well around the ground picking up 20 possessions including 4 inside 50's.

Agree. Will took some good marks I thought. He wasn't the worst player on the field.

[ledge]

Liberatore was a good pick wasnt he?
I thought our problem was we all did what Macca said we all went in, leaving WC players on their own so when the ball was released from a pack they got it!

[PedroArvy]

I was commenting Will's ruck work, true he was ok around the ground.

[chef]

Our playing list is below average ATM.

[Eastdog]

I was commenting Will's ruck work, true he was ok around the ground.

Could Mino play in a different role.

[LostDoggy]

This might seem overly simplistic but we lack quality players. We have too many on our list who are average or below average at this level.

We're chock full of battlers.

Spot on

[PedroArvy]

Markovic left on Kennedy after all those goals??? I thought that was unbelievable.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I hate to change the topic, but we were smashed in the ruck. West Coast's clearances killed us, particularly early on. Many of them lead to direct goals. Poor 'ol Will didn't have the athleticism to match it with Naitanui. It was embarrassing. Not sure he is cut out for this level.

I'm not to concerned about getting smashed more the way we got smashed. I think it was the first Qtr and the ball bounce was straight on top of a standing Nic Nat at a centre bounce, Will should have driven that knee right into his rib cage and showed him what footy is all about. The other thing I couldn't understand is why no one was standing goal side of the ruck. fair chance we would loose the tap out.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Markovic left on Kennedy after all those goals??? I thought that was unbelievable.

Yes I agree, but a lack of talls to help out down back, I thought that lynch is only a shadow of the player he was and maybe Shaggy could have been put on Kennedy or even Lake to have a stint.

Also I thought the 3rd quarter to have Higgins as a loose boy in defense was a very poor choice, I would rather swap Higgins with Murphy as Murphy would have been far better value running with no man.

[SonofScray]

A bit both ways. I think we lack fire power, our key guys don't seem to have a big bag of tricks, or just don't bring it with them. I wish we'd convert more opportunities in front of goal, especially from set shots. We need to take our chances.

Skills in general were poor. Wood just made a mess of everything and there were a lot of hurried, poor passes by hand which caused a turnover.

[DragzLS1]

Really west coast has the best ruck combo so let's not get too caught up. Positives are smith looks like a good pick up for us! Let's see how we go over the next 3 weeks and give Sherman, tutt and dj a run before we start calling for players heads. We were very much in it until the last quarter and we still could have brought it back. Next week will see Griffen in the side aswell and markovic might have an easier opponent aswell as minno and roughead in the ruck. Should be a cracking game against Adelaide.

[bornadog]

I was commenting Will's ruck work, true he was ok around the ground.

He was up against the best combination in the AFL.

Hitouts today were:

Cox: 22
Nik Nat: 23
Minno: 16
Roughead: 11

[Eastdog]

He was up against the best combination in the AFL.

Hitouts today were:

Cox: 22
Nik Nat: 23
Minno: 16
Roughead: 11

Also we played against a potential top 4 team.

[azabob]

Liberatore was a good pick wasnt he?!

Interestingly he was also father son but a second rounder. Well worth it though.

My concern surrounding the recruiting is we may and do pay overs for father son picks. I hope we are strong enough to say no, he's not worth X pick when the time comes and if we lose one or two so be it.

[anfo27]

I think our biggest problem is we lack quality/talent and hardness. Its no secret we have been the worst tackling team in the comp for a while now & although we did seem to have a harder edge to us in the first 2 & a half quarters we still have a long way to go. We don't have enough players that make right decisions most of the time or hit targets most of the time or just don't understand were that ball needs to go next.
We are going to have quite a few retirements within the next 3 years so thats going to be a lot of new kids coming in and we need to bring as much talent as we can in that time and hope macca has enough to work with. I like that macca has brought in harder players but its just going to take time & its going to get worse before it gets better.
Comrade is right, we have wasted so many first round picks over the years that its now coming back to haunt us. Heaven help us if we keep going down the same road with our drafting strike rate.

[anfo27]

He was up against the best combination in the AFL.

Hitouts today were:

Cox: 22
Nik Nat: 23
Minno: 16
Roughead: 11

You're right Will was up against the best in the comp and he won't be the only one that gets beaten by Nic Nat in centre bounces. I would like to see the centre bounce hit outs though cause poor minnow was trounced.

[The Underdog]

It's not just the guys that didn't make it with us (add Power, McMahon and Everitt as first rounders from the 2000s that ultimately played at other clubs) but guys like Williams, Higgins, Grant, Howard and Cordy that just haven't given us the output required from such valuable picks.

One poster said skills is our biggest issue and I agree but if you nail your first round picks in the draft, the team's overall skill level will increase significantly. Guaranteed.

It's because we've messed up our drafting for the last decade that our skills and decision making are so bad right now.

I walked out of today thinking we need to come bottom 5 just so we can maximise the 2 picks we have in the first round.

[anfo27]

I walked out of today thinking we need to come bottom 5 just so we can maximise the 2 picks we have in the first round.

i walked into today thinking that.

[LostDoggy]

It's not just the guys that didn't make it with us (add Power, McMahon and Everitt as first rounders from the 2000s that ultimately played at other clubs) but guys like Williams, Higgins, Grant, Howard and Cordy that just haven't given us the output required from such valuable picks.

One poster said skills is our biggest issue and I agree but if you nail your first round picks in the draft, the team's overall skill level will increase significantly. Guaranteed.

It's because we've messed up our drafting for the last decade that our skills and decision making are so bad right now.

This.

Have said it many, many times, but the first round simply can't be used on speculative picks, and we've tried to be too clever a few too many times. All of Williams, Higgins, Everitt, Grant and Howard were taken at picks above what they were rated. I expressed significant disappointment when EVERY SINGLE ONE of those players was drafted with the various picks we had in the first round (as I was with Smith).

Now I know that sometimes you have to reach to fill needs, and Smith looks like an over-reach that may pay off (early days yet), but in every single one of those drafts there were at least 3-4 players left that were locks to be VERY good quality AFL players (and have gone on to prove that), but we went for those we thought had more upside (like Williams) or X-factor (like Everitt, Howard and Grant). First round picks simply have to be blue-chip locks, not high-potential penny stocks. That's what the later picks/rookie draft is for (which we have admittedly done brilliantly in).

[Mofra]

Have said it many, many times, but the first round simply can't be used on speculative picks, and we've tried to be too clever a few too many times. All of Williams, Higgins, Everitt, Grant and Howard were taken at picks above what they were rated. .
Everitt absolutely, Howard perhaps (although at least one other team rated him highly) but disagree on the others.

Williams: Rated a potential top ten for months pre-draft
Higgins: Rated very highly, Marc Murphysaid he was his best opponent in the TAC
Grant: Was touted as our pick very early, highest goal per game ave in his TAC year (from memory, need to confirm)

Even Sam Power was very highly rated as a junior, and there was the Farren Ray vs Brock McLean debate pre-draft that, really, had no winners as it turned out.

It rarely gets a mention, but our record with second rounders is quite poor too compared to other teams and this has put us right back (2008 excepted). Faulkner, Addison, that spud from Tassie (don't mention his name), and then there are the trades - Aker & Street. Will is ok but has taken 10 years to get to where he is, that's a hell of a long lead in for a high secnd rounder.

[Evel]

Bigger issue is midfield. As has been mentioned we lack some real class and polish in finishing. I'm not going to say our forward problems are solved, but we had 10 goals on the board early in second so it did function in patches. It's just going to need time to develop. Another injection of draft talent is required for a year or two, but I didn't leave the game devastated today. If the year is spent filtering the list then so be it.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I'm talking about our multitude of first round picks that just haven't produced. No club gets it right every time but our track record is just about the worst in the league. It's where you pick up the real cream. When you miss out year on year, you end up with a team of grunters, which is exactly what we are.

I never said those players weren't good (though it's still very early days for Smith) and I'm not saying we have NO good players. We just don't have enough.

This is precisely what was going through my head as I was watching the game unfold.

I'm not upset or disappointed about the result, because I thought the effort was good. We got tired in the last quarter and a half, but for the most part, our spirit and effort was pretty solid.

But our lack of genuine quality is really, really telling.

We simply need an injection of 4 'A Grade' players -- but that's only easy in theory.

[anfo27]

This.

Have said it many, many times, but the first round simply can't be used on speculative picks, and we've tried to be too clever a few too many times. All of Williams, Higgins, Everitt, Grant and Howard were taken at picks above what they were rated. I expressed significant disappointment when EVERY SINGLE ONE of those players was drafted with the various picks we had in the first round (as I was with Smith).

Now I know that sometimes you have to reach to fill needs, and Smith looks like an over-reach that may pay off (early days yet), but in every single one of those drafts there were at least 3-4 players left that were locks to be VERY good quality AFL players (and have gone on to prove that), but we went for those we thought had more upside (like Williams) or X-factor (like Everitt, Howard and Grant). First round picks simply have to be blue-chip locks, not high-potential penny stocks. That's what the later picks/rookie draft is for (which we have admittedly done brilliantly in).

can't believe we took Everitt over Riewoldt & Frawley.

[Mofra]

With Griffen, Tutt and Sherman out that is three of our quickest runners (and arguably our 3 best outside mids)

[The Bulldogs Bite]

can't believe we took Everitt over Riewoldt & Frawley.

Hypothetical:

Instead of Everitt, we take Riewoldt.

Instead of Howard, we take Fyfe.

That makes a MASSIVE difference to the side.

[anfo27]

Hypothetical:

Instead of Everitt, we take Riewoldt.

Instead of Howard, we take Fyfe.

That makes a MASSIVE difference to the side.

it shouldn't be a hypothetical though, it was the wrong selection then and its the wrong selection now. We have always been a club needing KPP and we had Frawley & Riewoldt right there.

[Greystache]

Everitt absolutely, Howard perhaps (although at least one other team rated him highly) but disagree on the others.

Williams: Rated a potential top ten for months pre-draft
Higgins: Rated very highly, Marc Murphysaid he was his best opponent in the TAC
Grant: Was touted as our pick very early, highest goal per game ave in his TAC year (from memory, need to confirm)

Even Sam Power was very highly rated as a junior, and there was the Farren Ray vs Brock McLean debate pre-draft that, really, had no winners as it turned out.

It rarely gets a mention, but our record with second rounders is quite poor too compared to other teams and this has put us right back (2008 excepted). Faulkner, Addison, that spud from Tassie (don't mention his name), and then there are the trades - Aker & Street. Will is ok but has taken 10 years to get to where he is, that's a hell of a long lead in for a high secnd rounder.

Sadly Faulkner was another 1st round failure, he was a priority pick at the end of the 1st round.

[LostDoggy]

Panicking.
Well for lack of a better word anyhow?
The decisions to slam the ball onto the boot rather than pick out targets. It did pay off a bit today but I was still cringing when they did it. Boyd is one of the main offenders, plenty of the ball but constantly does a half turn snap kick to gain meters. Watching classy sides they take the time and try to maintain possession first, only rushing a kick when they have to.

[Ghost Dog]

Negativity!
There were some good things to see today. Score board did not reflect our genera effort

[always right]

Trying to stay positive but I remember going to the footy in the dark days just to watch Templeton when we had an ordinary side. Then I used to go games just to watch Hawkins. I hope I don't end up going to matches this year just to watch Dahlhaus...although I guess there are worse things in life.

[The Underdog]

Negativity!
There were some good things to see today. Score board did not reflect our genera effort

It may not have reflected our general effort, but I thought it was a pretty accurate reflection of the gap between the sides in regards to pace, skill, fitness base and where they are at structurally.

I think our biggest issue is midfield pace and skill as some have said. Griffen will help to some extent but we are currently too one dimensional and there isn't a lot of help on the list.
Our forward line is a work in progress but it is in progress.
Jones is a 3rd year key position player. He needs to continue to build his fitness so he can repeat effort like Kennedy does and he needs to work on his kicking. Cordy can also probably help in the long term.

[bornadog]

It's not just the guys that didn't make it with us (add Power, McMahon and Everitt as first rounders from the 2000s that ultimately played at other clubs) but guys like Williams, Higgins, Grant, Howard and Cordy that just haven't given us the output required from such valuable picks.

One poster said skills is our biggest issue and I agree but if you nail your first round picks in the draft, the team's overall skill level will increase significantly. Guaranteed.

It's because we've messed up our drafting for the last decade that our skills and decision making are so bad right now.

I am sorry, but you can say that about nearly every team. Unless you can compare our drafting history to other clubs, you can't make these comments. Drafting boys at age 17 about to turn 18 is not an easy task. Just ask, Melbourne, Richmond and many other clubs. Carlton have what 3 or 4 number one draft picks and only now are starting to be considered a top four team.

At the end of the day, we need a team built, not just good first round picks. Look at Collingwood, they play as a team, same as Hawthorn. Hopefully, BmAc can build us to be a team.

Today we had 11 players, ie half the team that haven't even played 50 games yet, and that's what we are lacking, experience.

[Ghost Dog]

It may not have reflected our general effort, but I thought it was a pretty accurate reflection of the gap between the sides in regards to pace, skill, fitness base and where they are at structurally.



And age / experience.

but do you really think the gap was as you suggest?
Add up the numbers: If jones had jagged his, Brian not given away his, Dahlhaus, higgins or Dickson / Grant got theirs ( pretty much right in front for all of those ) that's 40 odd points right there.
Players who are usually pretty good were ordinary with disposal today. No, I just disagree. We didn't take our opportunities and were ordinary today with disposal. But it won't be every day. They are the better team, yes, but not by 56 points on any given day of the week. I firmly believe we could have matched them today had we been a bit more composed and got the momentum without the spurts of skill errors.

[The Underdog]

And age / experience.

but do you really think the gap was as you suggest?
Add up the numbers: If jones had jagged his, Brian not given away his, Dahlhaus, higgins or Dickson / Grant got theirs ( pretty much right in front for all of those ) that's 40 odd points right there.
Players who are usually pretty good were ordinary with disposal today. No, I just disagree. We didn't take our opportunities and were ordinary today with disposal. But it won't be every day. They are the better team, yes, but not by 56 points on any given day of the week. I firmly believe we could have matched them today had we been a bit more composed and got the momentum without the spurts of skill errors.

I think they are a vastly more skilled side, they have a game plan and structures well in advance of ours. They have a load more pace and have a fitness base that is also advanced. Their avenues to goal are much better than ours and their key defensive options are better. Yes we matched them for a good portion of the match but we also gave up 9 or 10 goals straight without reply. Yes we didn't take our opportunities but that is another reason that they are a better side than us.
There were positives to come out of today, but at this point in time for various reasons, they are well and truly a better side than we are. Maybe not by 50 points with Griff back but given they were missing LeCras and Nicoski, we're not that close.

[Topdog]

Today we had 11 players, ie half the team that haven't even played 50 games yet, and that's what we are lacking, experience.

If you think we are just lacking experience I suspect you are in for a rude shock.

[Ghost Dog]

I think they are a vastly more skilled side, they have a game plan and structures well in advance of ours. They have a load more pace and have a fitness base that is also advanced. Their avenues to goal are much better than ours and their key defensive options are better. Yes we matched them for a good portion of the match but we also gave up 9 or 10 goals straight without reply. Yes we didn't take our opportunities but that is another reason that they are a better side than us.
There were positives to come out of today, but at this point in time for various reasons, they are well and truly a better side than we are. Maybe not by 50 points with Griff back but given they were missing LeCras and Nicoski, we're not that close.

A lot of the points you are making are related to players being in development. You don't expect developing players, players with one or two AFL preseason to perform at the top level. Compare oranges with apples.

Of course Dickson isn't going to have the fitness base of a third year AFL player. He trained for 1 hour a week last year.
Of course you can expect Smith to cramp up. There is only so muchyou can expect from young players like Liam Jones, or even Libba or Wallis, when they are in their second year. But they are learning and are improving.

[Topdog]

A lot of the points you are making are related to players being in development. You don't expect developing players, players with one or two AFL preseason to perform at the top level. Compare oranges with apples.

WCE have about 6 players with that experience too.

[Ghost Dog]

WCE have about 6 players with that experience too.

Yes but their very damaging position players are not those players. Their forwards for example. their rucks.

Their Kennedy was our Liam Jones. Their Nic Nat, our Roughead.

[GVGjr]

This.

Have said it many, many times, but the first round simply can't be used on speculative picks, and we've tried to be too clever a few too many times. All of Williams, Higgins, Everitt, Grant and Howard were taken at picks above what they were rated. I expressed significant disappointment when EVERY SINGLE ONE of those players was drafted with the various picks we had in the first round (as I was with Smith).

Now I know that sometimes you have to reach to fill needs, and Smith looks like an over-reach that may pay off (early days yet), but in every single one of those drafts there were at least 3-4 players left that were locks to be VERY good quality AFL players (and have gone on to prove that), but we went for those we thought had more upside (like Williams) or X-factor (like Everitt, Howard and Grant). First round picks simply have to be blue-chip locks, not high-potential penny stocks. That's what the later picks/rookie draft is for (which we have admittedly done brilliantly in).

On top of 'reaching' for players with early picks you would also be very aware that a couple of years back I was very concerned with our passive list management that had us making minimal changes with what was a rapidly aging list. I think we are now paying the price for not making the right calls on players and giving them the marching orders and also for some very questionable rookie list promotions.
We know have a list manager in place and I'm hoping that appointment works really with Dalrymple and his recruiting team.

By the way, I particularly agree with you on the section I have highlighted.

Brendan McCartney certainly has his work cut out for him but I think he can develop this group through the season.

[comrade]

I am sorry, but you can say that about nearly every team. Unless you can compare our drafting history to other clubs, you can't make these comments. Drafting boys at age 17 about to turn 18 is not an easy task. Just ask, Melbourne, Richmond and many other clubs. Carlton have what 3 or 4 number one draft picks and only now are starting to be considered a top four team.

At the end of the day, we need a team built, not just good first round picks. Look at Collingwood, they play as a team, same as Hawthorn. Hopefully, BmAc can build us to be a team.

Today we had 11 players, ie half the team that haven't even played 50 games yet, and that's what we are lacking, experience.

Collingwood play as a team but that team is built around genuine stars such as Pendlebury and Thomas (Cloke was a F/S selection that may have gone first round at market value). Ben Reid & Steele Sidebottom are also very skillful players that I would deem above average.

Hawthorn is the perfect example of nailing the first round. Buddy, Cyril, Roughy & Hodge are the core of that team.

[The Underdog]

A lot of the points you are making are related to players being in development. You don't expect developing players, players with one or two AFL preseason to perform at the top level. Compare oranges with apples.

Of course Dickson isn't going to have the fitness base of a third year AFL player. He trained for 1 hour a week last year.
Of course you can expect Smith to cramp up. There is only so muchyou can expect from young players like Liam Jones, or even Libba or Wallis, when they are in their second year. But they are learning and are improving.

I agree completely that these players are developing but your original point was that the gap between the teams general efforts wasn't accurately reflected on the scoreboard. I contended that the effort may not of been but that they were a vastly superior side in almost every other facet which was reflected on the scoreboard. The stage that players are at is irrelevant to my original point. Players like Jones, Smith and Dahlhaus will improve in coming years as they get further pre-seasons into them, but that won't help us bridge the gap now. Comparing oranges and apples is irrelevant to my contention as their apples are a mile better than our oranges in almost every way.

[Mantis]

I walked out of today thinking we need to come bottom 5 just so we can maximise the 2 picks we have in the first round.

We were in the 4 or 5 worst performing sides this round so it isn't a stretch to believe this won't be a reality on what we've seen so far.. But there's a long way to go, but I ain't holding my breath.

[Ghost Dog]

I agree completely that these players are developing but your original point was that the gap between the teams general efforts wasn't accurately reflected on the scoreboard. I contended that the effort may not of been but that they were a vastly superior side in almost every other facet which was reflected on the scoreboard. The stage that players are at is irrelevant to my original point. Players like Jones, Smith and Dahlhaus will improve in coming years as they get further pre-seasons into them, but that won't help us bridge the gap now. Comparing oranges and apples is irrelevant to my contention as their apples are a mile better than our oranges in almost every way.

It's not car racing. There are lots of variables. I'm saying yes, the eagles are better, but not unbeatable and if we are switched on, we should be able to be much closer next time. If we had been able to hold on, well, you can't say what score board pressure can do.

So today's game was unwinable from the start? That's not the way it flowed for 3 quarters though was it?
How about the Markovic decision, when he was held and it went against him? Brian's foolish attempt of mark of the year.? The fact we have a first time AFL coach? How do you intend to quantify these things?
McCartney deliberately left Marko where he was for the sake of development today. For the sake of something long term. Are you bearing that in mind?

We learn, improve on a few areas and kick straight - suddenly the gap is not so big.
We had our chances, and a better team than us can lose because of stray kicking or a few foolish decisions. That makes them a worse team on the day only.

[Eastdog]

So you are suggesting that game was unwinable from the start? That's not the way it flowed for 3 quarters.
They are a better side today , but not vastly. How about the Markovic decision, when he was held and it went against him? Brian's foolish attempt of mark of the year.? We learn, improve on a few areas and kick straight - suddenly the gap is not so big.

I like what your saying Ghost Dog. For 3 quarters will were with West Coast until they got away in the end. He had a lot of positives and negatives in the game. The season is not a right off yet and the way I see it is only Round 1. Let see how we go in the next couple of weeks. I reckon about 8 rounds in we can then tell how season 2012 will go for us.

[bornadog]

If you think we are just lacking experience I suspect you are in for a rude shock.

I didn't say that was the only thing lacking.

[Eastdog]

I didn't say that was the only thing lacking.

We have quite a lot of experienced players which is great but these guys are now going a bit past it now. Some of the young kids (Libba, Smith, Dalhaus) are going to be quality players but it will take time for them to reach their full potential. When in that phase of older going a bit past it and younger coming through and that most likely equals a season not finishing top 8. Our skill level is something many poster on WOOF has said needs to improve. Back in 2009 our skill level and run was great.

[gohardorgohome]

Trying to stay positive but I remember going to the footy in the dark days just to watch Templeton when we had an ordinary side. Then I used to go games just to watch Hawkins. I hope I don't end up going to matches this year just to watch Dahlhaus...although I guess there are worse things in life.

Dahlhaus is fantastic to watch......
I suppose the 16 other clubs at the time of his draft must rue the one that got away....
Drafting is such a difficult science.

[LostDoggy]

Here's a question -- we weren't great today, but how the heck did we lose by 126 points to this mob last year? Can anyone really believe that we were premiership favourites 12 months ago?

If a week is a long time in footy a year ago is an eternity away.

[Eastdog]

Here's a question -- we weren't great today, but how the heck did we lose by 126 points to this mob last year? Can anyone really believe that we were premiership favourites 12 months ago?

Yeah I think when David Smorgon at the start of the 2011 season said making a Grand Final and anything less was a failure backfired. Remember that for 3 seasons we were great and challenging for the premiership. 2011 we were on the slide but i can see why David thought that we were premiership favourites at the time. We lost to West Coast because we simply could not contain there forward press.

[LostDoggy]

Goal kicking practice is what's is needed as kicking 2 goals 6 in a quarter when the opposition kick 6 goals 3 is very deflating for players and supporters.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I'd be happy if the ladder stayed the way it is.
What we lack is CLASS, CLASS, CLASS.

I thought the team battled quite manfully and it wasn't a depressing loss for mine.

Markovic deserves a break. He's playing only his 17th game. Kennedy his 91st.
Kennedy is a star.
Even "full back of the century" Steven Silvagni would have days where he was beaten by Pugger or Ablett or Dunstall or Modra.
It was a mis match and there were plenty of times where he DID beat Kennedy in one on ones but no one mentions them. He never gave up or put his head down. I think he deserves some support.

[Ghost Dog]

I'd be happy if the ladder stayed the way it is.
What we lack is CLASS, CLASS, CLASS.

I thought the team battled quite manfully and it wasn't a depressing loss for mine.

Markovic deserves a break. He's playing only his 17th game. Kennedy his 91st.
Kennedy is a star.
Even "full back of the century" Steven Silvagni would have days where he was beaten by Pugger or Ablett or Dunstall or Modra.
It was a mis match and there were plenty of times where he DID beat Kennedy in one on ones but no one mentions them. He never gave up or put his head down. I think he deserves some support.

:DI did! go Marko!

[LongWait]

WCE have about 6 players with that experience too.

West Coast had no first year players and only two second year players in their side yesterday - they fielded a vastly more experienced and hardened team than ours.

I think we are rebuilding, despite the public utterances. However it was pleasing to see that our better players included three that haven't yet played 20 games (Liberatore; Dahlhouse and Smith.)

[Rance Fan]

West Coast are more than likely a top 4 side. It was always unlikely that we would win or get close to them.
I thought for 3 quarters we battled on quite well.
Really though, when it comes to the hawks,cats, eagles, magpies...we ain't going to win and we will struggle and look ordinary!
Im more wanting us to get up against the tigers, saints, demons, etc...
Lets hope we are battling it out for that final 8th spot, whilst building for the future.

[mjp]

Collingwood play as a team but that team is built around genuine stars such as Pendlebury and Thomas (Cloke was a F/S selection that may have gone first round at market value). Ben Reid & Steele Sidebottom are also very skillful players that I would deem above average.

Hawthorn is the perfect example of nailing the first round. Buddy, Cyril, Roughy & Hodge are the core of that team.

Beau Dowler. Mitch Thorp.

Yep - Hawthorn have nailed everything.

[Ghost Dog]

West Coast are more than likely a top 4 side. It was always unlikely that we would win or get close to them.
I thought for 3 quarters we battled on quite well.
Really though, when it comes to the hawks,cats, eagles, magpies...we ain't going to win and we will struggle and look ordinary!
Im more wanting us to get up against the tigers, saints, demons, etc...
Lets hope we are battling it out for that final 8th spot, whilst building for the future.

There's a lot of negativity around early in the season!
Even top teams have off days when they can be rolled.

[comrade]

Beau Dowler. Mitch Thorp.

Yep - Hawthorn have nailed everything.

You can't win on every pick but compared to our record, they've drafted very well.

And have a flag to show for it.

[BulldogBelle]

Our skill level overall was simply woeful at times yesterday

Hoping that as the season progresses and more footy is played its going to improve

Bringin in Tutt, Sherman, Griff and even Vez should hopefully improve our skill level (the later 2 more than the former 2)

Scott Clayton helped us with the later picks and rookie picks, but agree his record (apart from Griff and Cooney) in the 1st round especially isnt great looking at it over his tenure at the club

Our approach to the 1st (and at times to the 2nd round) was like a gamblers approach, we gambled on somewhat specultive choices trying to win big rather than making blue chip choices and improving slowly, at times we thought we could convert athletes from other sports into footballers etc


Ray
Power
Grant
Williams (to a degree)
Walsh
McCormack (not sure if he was 2nd or 3rd round but an early choice regardless)
Faulkner
Everitt
Wells

[LostDoggy]

There's a lot of negativity around early in the season!
Even top teams have off days when they can be rolled.

I think you are going to see more... With the retirements we've had (all the talent the afl gifted to their pet projects) we are absolutely rebuilding and it'll take 3 years minimum for mine. No team can survive the lost of Hall, Hahn, Johno, The Beard, Aker, Ward, Harbrow and effectively Lake, Gilbee and Cooney and expect to stay top 8. The positive is that for once we have lots of tall prospects currently on books and the better kids look like 150 gamers. Gives us time to draft some future silky mids over the next couple of years whilst we sit in the bottom 4-6. It'll make for a heaps quicker turnaround to climb again. Hard on murph and co as the poor guys most likely won't get their flag. It's not negative; just cyclical. Next window will be 2014-17ish so the Jones/Roughy/Cordy/Skinner group will be hopefully in their primes. Very glad we've used the extra picks this year. Better use them wisely as others have outlined.

[Maddog37]

I think it was a good start in many ways and all I want to see is the glaring mistakes such as blind kicking and poor goal conversion improved over the next few weeks.

Early days for this group.

Lake, shaggy and Coons hopefully will improve. Marko stuck to his guns but was thrown to the wolves.

We really are in rebuild not refresh.

[comrade]

the positive is that for once we have lots of tall prospects currently on books and the better kids look like 150 gamers.

We just have to hold onto them now. With free agency coming, it'll be easier said than done, considering our list management record over the last 2 years.

[dadsgirl16]

Cannot believe how poorly we kicked.....turnover city!!

[jeemak]

Beau Dowler. Mitch Thorp.

Yep - Hawthorn have nailed everything.

Is Xavier Ellis getting a game?

[comrade]

Is Xavier Ellis getting a game?

Wasn't he pivotal in their GF win before struggling with injury since?

Are you implying that Hawthorn hasn't drafted any better than us in the first round and that their first round picks haven't had a much bigger influence than ours in the same period?

[jeemak]

Wasn't he pivotal in their GF win before struggling with injury since?

Are you implying that Hawthorn hasn't drafted any better than us in the first round and that their first round picks haven't had a much bigger influence than ours in the same period?

He played a good game in the GF. I don't think it's only been injuries that have kept him out of their side in recent years.

I'm not implying anything, BTW. Hawthorn's drafting has been excellent, though they have missed a few first rounders just like everybody else.

We have been disappointing in this area, with Power, Walsh, Ray, Everitt and some others where it's debatable if we got things right.

[SlimPickens]

Biggest issue has to be our skill level, some of the missed targets, grubber kicks and 5 foot handballs missing by 2 feet (Easton!) were just horrible.

We also need to work on our spread from the contest, we have way too many blokes going in full knacker to get the ball and not nearly enough able use it once it has come out. I noted we won the contest possession count yesterday which is a positive, but once we got it going forward the WCE players were there in droves.

I reckon WCE will be right up there this year, so i'm not anywhere near panic stations just yet. There is a fair bit to work on and a hell of a lot to learn, our younger blokes will certainly be better for the experience.

[stefoid]

Everitt absolutely, Howard perhaps (although at least one other team rated him highly) but disagree on the others.

Williams: Rated a potential top ten for months pre-draft
Higgins: Rated very highly, Marc Murphysaid he was his best opponent in the TAC
Grant: Was touted as our pick very early, highest goal per game ave in his TAC year (from memory, need to confirm)

Even Sam Power was very highly rated as a junior, and there was the Farren Ray vs Brock McLean debate pre-draft that, really, had no winners as it turned out.

It rarely gets a mention, but our record with second rounders is quite poor too compared to other teams and this has put us right back (2008 excepted). Faulkner, Addison, that spud from Tassie (don't mention his name), and then there are the trades - Aker & Street. Will is ok but has taken 10 years to get to where he is, that's a hell of a long lead in for a high secnd rounder.

http://i14.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/9c/05/dd23_2.JPG

[bornadog]

It's not just the guys that didn't make it with us (add Power, McMahon and Everitt as first rounders from the 2000s that ultimately played at other clubs) but guys like Williams, Higgins, Grant, Howard and Cordy that just haven't given us the output required from such valuable picks.

One poster said skills is our biggest issue and I agree but if you nail your first round picks in the draft, the team's overall skill level will increase significantly. Guaranteed.

It's because we've messed up our drafting for the last decade that our skills and decision making are so bad right now.


It rarely gets a mention, but our record with second rounders is quite poor too compared to other teams and this has put us right back (2008 excepted). .

You guys have short memories:

Here are the draft picks for the last 5 years:

2007
1. Grant
2. Ward

2008

1. Cordy
2. Roughead
2. Jones

2009

1. Howard
2. Tutt

2010

1. Wallis
2. Libba

2011

1. Smith
2. Talia

Ok we lost Ward but under the circumstances and the money thrown at him, you can't balme him. We picked a winner here.

If you want to go further back:

2006 - Everitt - Tall player showed he was capable at junior level
2005 - Higgins and Addo - Still playing today. Higgins has been hampered by injury, shows leadership qualities.

2004 Griffen - Champion. Williams - Showed he can hold a key position, if he can get a clear run of being injury free.

2003 - Cooney - Brownlow. Ray - Nothing wrong with Ray, we just didn't want him. He has now played in Grand Finals with the Saints.

2002 - Walsh and Faulkner, and Will Minson was also a second round. Ok two out of three didn't work out.

Out of the last ten years we have recruited badly in 2002 for our First and second rounds.

I hate people assuming things when the facts can speak for themselves.

[mjp]

You guys have short memories:



I hadn't posted on this issue because I think we do have short memories when it comes to issues like Everitt over Reiwoldt etc - but there is no way we got value for picks in 2008 and 2009...and with Ward now gone add 2007 to that list.

Our early picks are not providing value. Of the seven players listed in those 3 drafts, only Jones is really a guaranteed part of the best 22. That is not good enough. If you are 100% happy with the progress of Grant, Roughead, Cordy, Howard and Tutt then you are more generous than me.

[bornadog]

If you are 100% happy with the progress of Grant, Roughead, Cordy, Howard and Tutt then you are more generous than me.

Not 100% till proven, but these guys are all under 21. Roughead and Cordy will mature, as we know talls take longer and Howard and Tutt have shown potential, so time will tell. As for Grant, the guy has shown ability kicking over 30 goals a couple of years ago, but at the same time he has also been disppointing.

I was just trying to show that early draft picks have not been as bad as we all may think.

[Sedat]

I hadn't posted on this issue because I think we do have short memories when it comes to issues like Everitt over Reiwoldt etc - but there is no way we got value for picks in 2008 and 2009...and with Ward now gone add 2007 to that list.

Our early picks are not providing value. Of the seven players listed in those 3 drafts, only Jones is really a guaranteed part of the best 22. That is not good enough. If you are 100% happy with the progress of Grant, Roughead, Cordy, Howard and Tutt then you are more generous than me.
Correct, and using a 2nd rounder from 2005 who is still struggling to get a regular senior game in Addison does nothing to support the argument. Andrew Swallow amoungst several others was still available at the Addison pick.

Drafting is an inexact science at the best of times but we have not nailed enough of our very high picks. Our drafting at low picks and rookies has been very good, but make no mistake, our failure to unearth genuine top-end talent from 2000-2002 ultimately cost us a premiership in 2008 and/or 2009.

[LostDoggy]

I hadn't posted on this issue because I think we do have short memories when it comes to issues like Everitt over Reiwoldt etc - but there is no way we got value for picks in 2008 and 2009...and with Ward now gone add 2007 to that list.

Our early picks are not providing value. Of the seven players listed in those 3 drafts, only Jones is really a guaranteed part of the best 22. That is not good enough. If you are 100% happy with the progress of Grant, Roughead, Cordy, Howard and Tutt then you are more generous than me.

This. I know where you're coming from BAD, but that list you provided is actually more indictment than absolution.

Too early to tell with the 2011 crop, but for the five years before that, all of Everitt, Grant, Cordy, Howard, Tutt, Roughead and Wallis have been underwhelming. Certainly more name recognition than actual output at this stage, which is simply not good enough considering that some of these guys have had 3-4 years in the system. Can't blame the recruiters for all of that (we all thought Wallis, Roughead and Cordy were good picks at the time), but there was certainly nothing clever about overreaching for Grant (I know we had our eyes on him a long way out, but no one else really did) or Howard, or Everitt (short memories? I remember quite a few people questioning the pick when it happened. We were pleasantly surprised with his first few games though, which may be what people are now remembering, rather than the actual draft itself).

Only Libba, and probably Jones, are locks for the future. That's nothing to shout about.

[chef]

You guys have short memories:

Here are the draft picks for the last 5 years:

2007
1. Grant
2. Ward

2008

1. Cordy
2. Roughead
2. Jones

2009

1. Howard
2. Tutt

2010

1. Wallis
2. Libba

2011

1. Smith
2. Talia

Ok we lost Ward but under the circumstances and the money thrown at him, you can't balme him. We picked a winner here.

If you want to go further back:

2006 - Everitt - Tall player showed he was capable at junior level
2005 - Higgins and Addo - Still playing today. Higgins has been hampered by injury, shows leadership qualities.

2004 Griffen - Champion. Williams - Showed he can hold a key position, if he can get a clear run of being injury free.

2003 - Cooney - Brownlow. Ray - Nothing wrong with Ray, we just didn't want him. He has now played in Grand Finals with the Saints.

2002 - Walsh and Faulkner, and Will Minson was also a second round. Ok two out of three didn't work out.

Out of the last ten years we have recruited badly in 2002 for our First and second rounds.

I hate people assuming things when the facts can speak for themselves.

Apart from Griffen and Cooney(which were no brainers) our first and second round drafting has been horrible:eek:. And of the recent draftees only Libba and Jones look worthy of being drafted in the first two rounds(to early to tell with Smith and Talia)..

[LostDoggy]

Coaching wasn't that great. We went into the game with a good plan. But didn't change anything to stop West Coasts game plan or change when West Coast figured out ours....

[Dazza]

Anyone think Boyd and Picken should do a role reversal next week?

[bornadog]

Only Libba, and probably Jones, are locks for the future. That's nothing to shout about.


Apart from Griffen and Cooney(which were no brainers) our first and second round drafting has been horrible:eek:. And of the recent draftees only Libba and Jones look worthy of being drafted in the first two rounds(to early to tell with Smith and Talia)..

So out of the list you believe, Smith, Talia, Roughead, Howard Tutt, Wallis, Cordy and Grant are no good.

Can't agree.

[Bulldog Revolution]

The 2006 draft was terrible: Everitt, Lynch, Stack, Hill - the only redeeming feature was the Harbrow rookie selection

The 2007 draft given we've lost Ward offers the senior team very little at the moment - Grant and Wood are still developing.

When you look at our drafts our players just take longer to develop, and aren't translating into solid senior players

[LostDoggy]

Our inability to kill the ball in defence - how many times in a marking contest should we have killed the ball to only find that WC took the mark.......exasperating.

Lack of capacity to take our chances in attack - WC took their opportunities with precision. Doggies disn't deliver on straightforward chances (Jones, Dickson, etc) or have the awareness to need to lay off (Minson). Opportunity to learn from an (more) elite and advanced team than where we are.

[BulldogBelle]

James Fantasia - he is the Antichrist
He has been the football manager since November 2007 and is responsible for the list. He is the person who is responsible for the team having list cloggers such as Hooper, Mulligan, Addison, Gilbee, Moles and Panos. As if we didn't have enough list cloggers he goes out and recruits duds such as Callan, Sherman and Djerrkura from other clubs. Also Stack and others before him were on the list for far too long. In addition Aker, Johnson and Eagleton played one year too long. If these players were recognised as washed up or highly unlikely to succeed earlier they could have been replaced by very good players.

Also, somebody said that Fantasia just gave Cross a two year contract, how dumb is that. Fantasia survived the chop last year when he should have been sacked. He should have advised Macca that Addison is at best going to be a C grader and not selected him, Vez should have been selected. Seemed to have absolutely failed to recognise the enormous potential in Cordy, should be signing him up for a 5 year contract otherwise he will just get pinched by some other club.

David Smorgan and other board members, Ian Veale, Barry Hall, George Pappas and others. These guys are responsible for the efficient running of the club and they just have not done their job. They are ultimately responsible for the position that the club is in. They should have straightened Eade out with his poor team selections and outdated tactics years ago.

I had two full memberships with social club two years ago. For this year my membership renewal did not come. I rang up the club and got a recorded message for me to leave a message, but it didn't work. I sent an email but didn't get a reply. The membership website doesn't give me a clue as to my membership status. Really poor.

Simon Garlick - my mate Tom's little boy, but you have not started off well. Changing our jumper to loser hoops, one premiership and one other grand final in how long - 60 years or so. Your intelligence should tell you that we have to go RED!

We have not been able to develop players the way that other teams such as West Coast, Hawthorn and Collingwood have. Players such as Grant, Everitt and Roughead have not come along as expected.

Jones just needs kicking and marking practice, forget about handballs and running around witches tits. He gets shuffled out of the static marking contest too easily. Should be aiming to put 1000 hours into marking and kicking practice between now and the end of the season.

End of rant. (Who said thank goodness for that).

[Ghost Dog]

James Fantasia - he is the Antichrist
He has been the football manager since November 2007 and is responsible for the list. He is the person who is responsible for the team having list cloggers such as Hooper, Mulligan, Addison, Gilbee, Moles and Panos. As if we didn't have enough list cloggers he goes out and recruits duds such as Callan, Sherman and Djerrkura from other clubs. Also Stack and others before him were on the list for far too long. In addition Aker, Johnson and Eagleton played one year too long. If these players were recognised as washed up or highly unlikely to succeed earlier they could have been replaced by very good players.

Also, somebody said that Fantasia just gave Cross a two year contract, how dumb is that. Fantasia survived the chop last year when he should have been sacked. He should have advised Macca that Addison is at best going to be a C grader and not selected him, Vez should have been selected. Seemed to have absolutely failed to recognise the enormous potential in Cordy, should be signing him up for a 5 year contract otherwise he will just get pinched by some other club.

David Smorgan and other board members, Ian Veale, Barry Hall, George Pappas and others. These guys are responsible for the efficient running of the club and they just have not done their job. They are ultimately responsible for the position that the club is in. They should have straightened Eade out with his poor team selections and outdated tactics years ago.

I had two full memberships with social club two years ago. For this year my membership renewal did not come. I rang up the club and got a recorded message for me to leave a message, but it didn't work. I sent an email but didn't get a reply. The membership website doesn't give me a clue as to my membership status. Really poor.

Simon Garlick - my mate Tom's little boy, but you have not started off well. Changing our jumper to loser hoops, one premiership and one other grand final in how long - 60 years or so. Your intelligence should tell you that we have to go RED!

We have not been able to develop players the way that other teams such as West Coast, Hawthorn and Collingwood have. Players such as Grant, Everitt and Roughead have not come along as expected.

Jones just needs kicking and marking practice, forget about handballs and running around witches tits. He gets shuffled out of the static marking contest too easily. Should be aiming to put 1000 hours into marking and kicking practice between now and the end of the season.

End of rant. (Who said thank goodness for that).

Now...I don't agree with all of that....even a lot of it...but I really enjoyed reading it!! Nice post. Passionate, articulate and to the point.


As you say however - it is a rant! Personally, I love the hoops. Smorgo has done fantastic things for us. Sherman , Djekurra - bit early to consign them to the clogger bin? In short, totally over the top- But laughed reading it!

[bornadog]

Now...I don't agree with all of that....even a lot of it...but I really enjoyed reading it!! Nice post. Passionate, articulate and to the point.

I thought it was a crap post.

[BulldogBelle]

I thought it was a crap post.

Glad you read it though. I always like to offer something a bit different.

[stefoid]

Its a bit like Faulty Towers - how can we run a hotel with all these guests running around?

But I do like a good simple solution to a complex problem

step 1) sack all the non-elite players
step 2) magic happens
step 3) premiership!

[bornadog]

Glad you read it though. I always like to offer something a bit different.

Its the same old things you have been writing about for years, so thats why I say crap. I get sick and tired of reading about we should have done this and that in 2006 or whatever year.

Lets forget the past and look to the future and what you feel we need to improve on. Draft picks are too late, ie we have what we have, so what position should we be drafting for in the future? What can BMac do to help this young team. Remember half the team on Sunday hasn't played 50 games yet, three were coming back from long term injuries, and no Griffen, Morris and Williams.

[AndrewP6]

James Fantasia - he is the Antichrist

David Smorgan and other board members, Ian Veale, Barry Hall, George Pappas and others. These guys are responsible for the efficient running of the club and they just have not done their job. They are ultimately responsible for the position that the club is in. They should have straightened Eade out with his poor team selections and outdated tactics years .

If bagging the guy, at least spell his name right.

[Stefcep]

In the days before the salary cap I could understand that money made the Premiership cups go around. But since the advent of the draft and the cap, its criminal that we have enjoyed so little success. How we can consistently get the wrong people who then go on to make the wrong decision in recruiting is beyond me.

[Ghost Dog]

In the days before the salary cap I could understand that money made the Premiership cups go around. But since the advent of the draft and the cap, its criminal that we have enjoyed so little success. How we can consistently get the wrong people who then go on to make the wrong decision in recruiting is beyond me.

Middle of the road if you ask me. Done better than some much better off clubs ( richmond, Melb ) and not nearly as well as others.

[Rocco Jones]

James Fantasia - he is the Antichrist
He has been the football manager since November 2007 and is responsible for the list. He is the person who is responsible for the team having list cloggers such as Hooper, Mulligan, Addison, Gilbee, Moles and Panos. As if we didn't have enough list cloggers he goes out and recruits duds such as Callan, Sherman and Djerrkura from other clubs. Also Stack and others before him were on the list for far too long. In addition Aker, Johnson and Eagleton played one year too long. If these players were recognised as washed up or highly unlikely to succeed earlier they could have been replaced by very good players.

Also, somebody said that Fantasia just gave Cross a two year contract, how dumb is that. Fantasia survived the chop last year when he should have been sacked. He should have advised Macca that Addison is at best going to be a C grader and not selected him, Vez should have been selected. Seemed to have absolutely failed to recognise the enormous potential in Cordy, should be signing him up for a 5 year contract otherwise he will just get pinched by some other club.

David Smorgan and other board members, Ian Veale, Barry Hall, George Pappas and others. These guys are responsible for the efficient running of the club and they just have not done their job. They are ultimately responsible for the position that the club is in. They should have straightened Eade out with his poor team selections and outdated tactics years ago.

I had two full memberships with social club two years ago. For this year my membership renewal did not come. I rang up the club and got a recorded message for me to leave a message, but it didn't work. I sent an email but didn't get a reply. The membership website doesn't give me a clue as to my membership status. Really poor.

Simon Garlick - my mate Tom's little boy, but you have not started off well. Changing our jumper to loser hoops, one premiership and one other grand final in how long - 60 years or so. Your intelligence should tell you that we have to go RED!

We have not been able to develop players the way that other teams such as West Coast, Hawthorn and Collingwood have. Players such as Grant, Everitt and Roughead have not come along as expected.

Jones just needs kicking and marking practice, forget about handballs and running around witches tits. He gets shuffled out of the static marking contest too easily. Should be aiming to put 1000 hours into marking and kicking practice between now and the end of the season.

End of rant. (Who said thank goodness for that).

Yeah but other than that you think we are going alright huh?

[Ghost Dog]

In the days before the salary cap I could understand that money made the Premiership cups go around. But since the advent of the draft and the cap, its criminal that we have enjoyed so little success. How we can consistently get the wrong people who then go on to make the wrong decision in recruiting is beyond me.

Middle of the road if you ask me. Done better than some much better off clubs ( richmond, Melb ) and not nearly as well as others.

[chef]

So out of the list you believe, Smith, Talia, Roughead, Howard Tutt, Wallis, Cordy and Grant are no good.

Can't agree.

I did say it was to early to tell with Talia and Smith and I haven't seen enough of Cordy yet, but he is one I'm excited about. Roughead needs time, but he doesn't have a stand out quality going for him and Tutt may offer us some Eagleton like abilities which our side needs.

None of the others look like A graders to me(which is what you need to be finding with your first two picks), maybe not even B graders:(. If any of them were put up on the trade table what would expect other clubs would offer for them?

The only reason why we aren't very good ATM is because off the players we have drafted. To me that is the be all and end all.

[Mofra]

You guys have short memories:
So a post basically agreeing with what I said equates to having a short memory?

[bornadog]

I did say it was to early to tell with Talia and Smith and I haven't seen enough of Cordy yet, but he is one I'm excited about. Roughead needs time, but he doesn't have a stand out quality going for him and Tutt may offer us some Eagleton like abilities which our side needs.

None of the others look like A graders to me(which is what you need to be finding with your first two picks), maybe not even B graders:(. If any of them were put up on the trade table what would expect other clubs would offer for them?

I am not saying we have the best players, but what I am saying its not all doom and gloom. I am saying is its difficult to draft A graders when you have played finals footy and don't get to pick a player till 13 to 16 others have.

You agree that Cooney and Griffen are A graders. We had the luxury of drafting them because we were low down on the ladder. Since 2006 to 2010, we have played finals which means we don't get to choose the best players and the rest of the draft picks can be a bit of a lottery. The players we drafted as round one and two picks over the past 5 years are not too bad given the pick number we had but as you say still to be proven. The last two drafts have been compromised which hasn't helped any one. It is very difficult to pick an A grader from picks above ten, unless its a freak year like the Griffen year. (Should we have picked Buddy before Griffen)?

Basically, we can whinge and carry on about why we picked Everitt over Riewoldt or someone over someone else, but at the time of drafting, there were all sorts of reasons for making those decisions. If you have ever been involved in elite sports you will find that some 18 year olds can be ready made footballers, others grow into it. So its difficult to know how they will develop.

For example: No one wanted Picken because he was a scrawny kid, but he developed and worked hard and has now made it. Others look like they are going to be stars due to their junior footy, but as they grow, they change, their passion is not there and they don't work hard enough. Picking A Graders is very very difficult and theren't too many that are high draft picks. Lake is one exception we have.


The only reason why we aren't very good ATM is because off the players we have drafted. To me that is the be all and end all.

I don't think this is the sole reason, I think we didn't manage our list properly as James Cummings mentioned, certain players were left on our list too long and really we shouldn't have tried to drafted mature players to fill gaps - Aker Welsh and maybe even Hudson and Hall who took placres of younger players and stopped their development.

We had 11 players with less than 50 games on Sunday, which doesn't help our course. Lets hope these young players, all under 21 will make it. Personally I was excited to see 19 year old Libba be best on the ground for us, or 18 year old Smith kicking 4 goals on debut, or 19 year old Dahlhaus ducking and weaving and creating goals.

[bornadog]

So a post basically agreeing with what I said equates to having a short memory?

I was disagreeing that our second rounders were poor picks.

[anfo27]

Glad you read it though. I always like to offer something a bit different.

loved your first line about James Fantasia being the antichrist. not sure if your aim is to make people laugh but i always enjoy reading your posts cause i always get a laugh out of it.

[Mofra]

I was disagreeing that our second rounders were poor picks.
Disagree strongly - we have a few solid 2nd rounders, that's it.
We are below par compared to other clubs, and combined with our overall poor first round draft picks we are behind the 8 ball.

Do people really think our list is one of the more talented in the AFL?

[bornadog]

Disagree strongly - we have a few solid 2nd rounders, that's it.
We are below par compared to other clubs, and combined with our overall poor first round draft picks we are behind the 8 ball.

Do people really think our list is one of the more talented in the AFL?

I never said they were one of the more talented. Lets look at who we drafted as a second rounder and tell me they are no good:

2007, Ward. (ok we lost him, but we were pretty good in picking him)
2008, Roughead and Jones both second rounders.
2009, Tutt
2010, Libba
2011, Talia

can we please give these guys a go before we write them off?

Now you pick a club that has consistently picked good second rounders over the past 5 years and were in the top 4 on the ladder. I am asking out of ignorance and can't be bothered checking because I didn't make the statement.

[Before I Die]

Disagree strongly - we have a few solid 2nd rounders, that's it.
We are below par compared to other clubs, and combined with our overall poor first round draft picks we are behind the 8 ball.

Do people really think our list is one of the more talented in the AFL?

Below par means below average. Are you saying we are below par compared to all other clubs, or below par compared to the top 4 clubs? In which case, so are 13 other clubs.

Three Prelims, one injury ravaged year and a first round defeat to a very good team and it is all doom and gloom?

Quinten Lynch was a list clogger, Matt Pridis was a list clogger, Kennedy was given up by Carlton, Cox was picked up as a rookie. Give Jones, Grant and Roughead a chance. I think our young list is very good, but has not matured yet.

[Ghost Dog]

I re-watched Year of the Dogs the other day.
The unsung hero in that video is the psychologist, who keeps hammering it home. Scrappy dogs, battling dogs, Crap Crap Crap.
Exciting, professional passionate. This is our big issue to my mind. The amount of negativity expressed even by our own supporters is astounding. Its reflected in our poor membership retention, and a great deal of pessimism on this forum.
Exciting, Passionate, Professional plus, I will add Profitable and Positive.

[LostDoggy]

So out of the list you believe, Smith, Talia, Roughead, Howard Tutt, Wallis, Cordy and Grant are no good.

Can't agree.

Never said they were no good -- said that their output so far has been underwhelming, especially for some guys who have been in the system nearly 4 years. And I didn't include Smith and Talia in my list because as I (and others) said, it's far too early to tell with the 2011 crop.

You're twisting our words to support your argument. It's admirable that you defend our players, but it's stretching credibility to suggest that Roughead, Howard, Tutt, Wallis, Cordy and Grant have been anything but marginal contributors at best so far in their careers (okay, maybe not Tutt, but it's not like he's done a lot either).

You've also said it's hard to build a list having finished high up and only getting picks 13-18. Grant was a no.5 pick, Everitt a no.11, Cordy a 12, Higgins an 11 -- and Geelong and Collingwood haven't done too badly with their recruiting despite finishing higher than us most years.

[bornadog]

Never said they were no good -- said that their output so far has been underwhelming, especially for some guys who have been in the system nearly 4 years. And I didn't include Smith and Talia in my list because as I (and others) said, it's far too early to tell with the 2011 crop.

You're twisting our words to support your argument. It's admirable that you defend our players, but it's stretching credibility to suggest that Roughead, Howard, Tutt, Wallis, Cordy and Grant have been anything but marginal contributors at best so far in their careers (okay, maybe not Tutt, but it's not like he's done a lot either).

You've also said it's hard to build a list having finished high up and only getting picks 13-18. Grant was a no.5 pick, Everitt a no.11, Cordy a 12, Higgins an 11 -- and Geelong and Collingwood haven't done too badly with their recruiting despite finishing higher than us most years.

Lantern, I only work on facts, whereas others work on perception.

Have a look at who Geelong picked since 2007 and they have only been successful with Harry Taylor in 2007 as their number one. The rest of their picks since then, ie pick one or two have played less than 10 games, except 2008 they picked Menzel, Duncan and Christian - all good ordinary players.

As for Collingwood, 2007, John McCarthy????, 2008, Sidebottom and Beans - yes handy but not A graders, 2008 Luke Ball a ready made player, Sinclair 5 games and 2010 Fassolo

I will take our picks anyday.

[Rocco Jones]

I re-watched Year of the Dogs the other day.
The unsung hero in that video is the psychologist, who keeps hammering it home. Scrappy dogs, battling dogs, Crap Crap Crap.
Exciting, professional passionate. This is our big issue to my mind. The amount of negativity expressed even by our own supporters is astounding. Its reflected in our poor membership retention, and a great deal of pessimism on this forum.
Exciting, Passionate, Professional plus, I will add Profitable and Positive.

Are you a fan of this by any chance?

o2MqciSMOmk

I am wealthy, I do go out with multiple supermodels, I do go for an AFL club that isn't that crap

[Sedat]

Have a look at who Geelong picked since 2007 and they have only been successful with Harry Taylor in 2007 as their number one. The rest of their picks since then, ie pick one or two have played less than 10 games, except 2008 they picked Menzel, Duncan and Christian - all good ordinary players.

As for Collingwood, 2007, John McCarthy????, 2008, Sidebottom and Beans - yes handy but not A graders, 2008 Luke Ball a ready made player, Sinclair 5 games and 2010 Fassolo

I will take our picks anyday.
If they are 'good ordinary footballers' then our crop in that time are plain shitful. All of Menzel, Duncan and Christiansen have made a genuine impact in a seriously talented team, and have done so in the heat of September - even Menzel did, being BOG in the QF last year before doing his knee. Nathan Vardy was also taken in the 2009 draft and has played far more impactful games at senior level in the ruck than Roughead and Cordy combined. I won't even mention Harry Taylor, who is one of the most dependable key defenders in the competition and has been almost since he set foot at Kardinia Park (to be fair, he was drafted as a 21yo and not as an 18yo).

Sidebottom just handy? He was very close to a Norm Smith and was probably the player of Collingwood's 2010 finals series, as a first year recruit. Compare his first year with Mitch Wallis' - chalk and cheese. Beams has done far, far more than Howard and Tutt - as has Fasolo who is younger. Our crop are not yet impacting with any consistency in a middle of the road team and yet Geelong and Collingwood are getting meaningful, sustained contributions from their young players, and doing so in teams that are winning 18-20 games in H&A.

I can't believe you can say with a straight face that would take our picks over the Geelong and Collingwood picks in the last 3 or 4 seasons (Libba excepted of course, who has had elite written all over him since his first senior game). That's not to say that our boys won't improve over time. But right here and now, they have achieved so little at senior level compared to their Collingwood and Geelong contemporaries it isn't funny.

[jeemak]

I would like to see the impact guys like Christian, Duncan, Menzel, Sidebottom and Fosolo would have in bottom eight sides.

I'm not entering in to the debate of whether they are worse players than our most recent crop of draftees, rather I suspect it's easier for developing players or fringe players to have an impact in teams that are performing well.

[Ghost Dog]

Are you a fan of this by any chance?

o2MqciSMOmk

I am wealthy, I do go out with multiple supermodels, I do go for an AFL club that isn't that crap

Had me in stiches!:D
How about the dude in the centurion outfit? Reeks of Scientology that one...

Callan Ward WILL destroy his knee...Callan Wa....oh it's only for POSITIVE affirmations....

[Mofra]

If they are 'good ordinary footballers' then our crop in that time are plain shitful. All of Menzel, Duncan and Christiansen have made a genuine impact in a seriously talented team, and have done so in the heat of September - even Menzel did, being BOG in the QF last year before doing his knee. Nathan Vardy was also taken in the 2009 draft and has played far more impactful games at senior level in the ruck than Roughead and Cordy combined. I won't even mention Harry Taylor, who is one of the most dependable key defenders in the competition and has been almost since he set foot at Kardinia Park (to be fair, he was drafted as a 21yo and not as an 18yo).

Sidebottom just handy? He was very close to a Norm Smith and was probably the player of Collingwood's 2010 finals series, as a first year recruit. Compare his first year with Mitch Wallis' - chalk and cheese. Beams has done far, far more than Howard and Tutt - as has Fasolo who is younger. Our crop are not yet impacting with any consistency in a middle of the road team and yet Geelong and Collingwood are getting meaningful, sustained contributions from their young players, and doing so in teams that are winning 18-20 games in H&A.

I can't believe you can say with a straight face that would take our picks over the Geelong and Collingwood picks in the last 3 or 4 seasons (Libba excepted of course, who has had elite written all over him since his first senior game). That's not to say that our boys won't improve over time. But right here and now, they have achieved so little at senior level compared to their Collingwood and Geelong contemporaries it isn't funny.
Nailed it.

There's no point in merely saying "our picks are doing ok" - it's a competition, we need to be examined in comparison to other teams. We have not managed to gain the quality with our 1st & 2nd year picks that many other teams have - I believe most of are ahead of us here, and yes I would include Geelong & Collingwood in that category.

Stephen Wells at Geelong hasn't had a pick above no 5 yet has built a team that has been the benchmark for the past half decade. Exclude our picks 1-4 and we do not compare favourably at all.

[bornadog]

All of Menzel, Duncan and Christiansen have made a genuine impact in a seriously talented team, and have done so in the heat of September - even Menzel did,
Sidebottom just handy? He was very close to a Norm Smith and was probably the player of Collingwood's 2010 finals series, as a first year recruit. Compare his first year with Mitch Wallis' - chalk and cheese. Beams has done far, far more than Howard and Tutt - as has Fasolo who is younger.

Sedat I can't agree with your post.

Since 2007 Geelong have produced four regular senior players. Menzel, Duncan and Christiansen were picked up in the 2008 draft. That means they have had the opportunity to play in at least 70 games (including finals), but none of them have played in more than 30. They are good ordinary players, they are not A graders. They have been playing in a Champion team that makes them look good.

Collingwood in the same period have also only picked up four good players. Are any of these A graders?

My arguement at the end of the day is reacting to posters who think we have picked up worse players than Geelong Collingwood and other teams, and I disagree.

In order to win a premiership you need a balanced team, which something we haven't had since 1998 due to poor list management, not poor drafting skills.

I go back to the list and you tell me which one of these players is no good, ie players drafted as 1st and 2nd round since 2007:

Smith, Talia, Roughead, Howard Tutt, Wallis, Cordy, Grant, Jones, Libba.

I haven't even included Dahlhaus here.

[Mofra]

I go back to the list and you tell me which one of these players is no good, ie players drafted as 1st and 2nd round since 2007:

Smith, Talia, Roughead, Howard Tutt, Wallis, Cordy, Grant, Jones, Libba.
It doesn't matter if they're good or not, it matters in comparison to other sides.

We have to exclude Smith & Talia as it's too early to tell, and remember that Libba was a free-kick because of the F/S rule (Wallis and Cordy came "cheap" but still haven't cemented a spot).

That leaves Jones as a very good pick (which was a traded pick re effectively received for screwing up a pick 4, Farren Ray), Roughead looks ok, Tutt has potential after a couple of games, Grant & Howard shaky but will hopefully improve this season.

Rnd 1 & 2 picks since 2006 (excluding 2011 draft & players yet to debut):
Geelong: Selwood, Djerkurra, Taylor, M Brown, Gillies, Menzel, Duncan, Smeldts, Guthrie
Collingwood: (traded heavily last two) - Ball, Sidebottom, Beams, McCarthy, Ben Ried, N Brown, Dawes (jeez that's impressive)
Hawthorn: I Smith, Shoenmakers, Shiels, Rioli, Whitecross and their poor 2006 year - Thorp, Renouf, Morton
Sydney: L Parker, Rohan, Jetta, Johnston, Hannebury, Vez, Meredith,
Carlton: Watson, Lucas, Yarran, Kreuzer, Gibbs, Hampson, Grigg
West Coast: Gaff, Darling, Lycett, Sheppard, Weedon, Stevens, Naitanui, Shuey, Swift, Masten, Ebert, Notte, Selwood, M Brown, MacKenzie.

That would be my list of competitors this year, and I don't believe we'd be ahead of many (if any) in that group (certainly not if we didn't get Libba in round 2 who I think will be an A grader)

[bornadog]

It doesn't matter if they're good or not, it matters in comparison to other sides.

We have to exclude Smith & Talia as it's too early to tell, and remember that Libba was a free-kick because of the F/S rule (Wallis and Cordy came "cheap" but still haven't cemented a spot).

That leaves Jones as a very good pick (which was a traded pick re effectively received for screwing up a pick 4, Farren Ray), Roughead looks ok, Tutt has potential after a couple of games, Grant & Howard shaky but will hopefully improve this season.

Rnd 1 & 2 picks since 2006 (excluding 2011 draft & players yet to debut):
Geelong: Selwood, Djerkurra, Taylor, M Brown, Gillies, Menzel, Duncan, Smeldts, Guthrie
Collingwood: (traded heavily last two) - Ball, Sidebottom, Beams, McCarthy, Ben Ried, N Brown, Dawes (jeez that's impressive)
Hawthorn: I Smith, Shoenmakers, Shiels, Rioli, Whitecross and their poor 2006 year - Thorp, Renouf, Morton
Sydney: L Parker, Rohan, Jetta, Johnston, Hannebury, Vez, Meredith,
Carlton: Watson, Lucas, Yarran, Kreuzer, Gibbs, Hampson, Grigg
West Coast: Gaff, Darling, Lycett, Sheppard, Weedon, Stevens, Naitanui, Shuey, Swift, Masten, Ebert, Notte, Selwood, M Brown, MacKenzie.

That would be my list of competitors this year, and I don't believe we'd be ahead of many (if any) in that group (certainly not if we didn't get Libba in round 2 who I think will be an A grader)

Yep all looks impressive.

West Coast and Carlton had the luxury of picking number one picks due to their bottom of the ladder placings, so you can't compare them.

Sydney - Are good recruiters and good at managing their list.

Hawthorn - 2007, we picked Grant at pick 5 and they went for Rioli at pick 12. You have to also look at what a team needs at the time and we were looking for a tall KPP type. We also got Ward at 19 which was a handy pickup. Whitecross is average.

* 2008 - Hawks picked Shoenmakers, Shileds and Lisle. Are they better than Jones, Roughead and Cordy? Personally, I like our picks, maybe we could have gone for one less tall.

* 2009 No contest, Hawks players only Stratton has played 28 games, and their other pick Suckling promoted from rookie.
We picked Howard, Tutt, Markovic, promoted Picken, Mulligan

Howard, Tutt, have potential, Markovic is a backup and Picken is a beauty.

* 2010 Isaac Smith, Puoplo and Bruce, compared to Wallis, Libba, Schofield and Skinner

Hawthorn is a good team because they have Buddy, Rioli up forward, and their midfield is very good with the likes of Hodge, Sewell, Lewis etc. The rest of the team is just that a team effort sticking to a game plan. They had priority picks in 2003, 2004, 2005, and back in 2002 they had pick 8, priority in 2001. This is why they have top players today.

[Sedat]

They have been playing in a Champion team that makes them look good.
See, this is the argument that Richmond supporters use to justify why Deledio is a much better player than Griffen (which is crap IMO). Sidebottom and Beams kept seasoned and well performed players like Lockyer and O'Bree out of the Collingwood team in 2010. They showed good enough form to force their way into a very good team and stay there - not only that, they made important and valuable contributions to a premiership assault. They weren't token youth policy selections like you see from perennial rubbish teams like Richmond and Melbourne.

Our players in that time aren't at the level of most teams selections as summarised by Mofra. Not sure how this can even be argued. Jarrad Grant has had a strong 15 game patch in his entire career to date (round 5 to about round 20 in 2010) - aside from that, he has offered up nothing at senior level. Roughead might pluck a good mark here and there but has not sustained a good effort over a whole match let alone a chunk of a season. None of Howard, Tutt and Wallis have made any major impact at senior level (apart from Tutt's debut against a dispirited, disinterested Port Adelaide team).

BAD, when you say that 'Whitecross is average', you're probably right. But he has made more sustained impact at AFL level than Wallis, Howard, Tutt at this point in time. I think you are over-rating our boys based on what they might become, not on what they have achieved to date. It's not over for them, not by a long shot. But they are coming from a long way behind the Geelong and Collingwood boys IMO.

[bornadog]

BAD, when you say that 'Whitecross is average', you're probably right. But he has made more sustained impact at AFL level than Wallis, Howard, Tutt at this point in time. I think you are over-rating our boys based on what they might become, not on what they have achieved to date. It's not over for them, not by a long shot. But they are coming from a long way behind the Geelong and ollingwood boys IMO.

No you are not getting my point. The whole argument stems back to we are bad recruiters compared to other teams. I am not going to go over old ground.

I am certainly not overrating our players.

All I know is in the past 5 drafts we picked amongst others, Ward, Harbrow, Jones, Dahlhaus, Libba, Picken and Jones. Ok we lost two to new teams but you can't agrue that these guys are not above average.

[stefoid]

Will be interseting to see how Macca affects our drafting from here on in because he certainly has a big say so far, what with Smith v Crozier, the ex-ballarat boys and so on.

So hes not afraid to direct the drafters to pick certain traits or qualities that he wants - would he have rubber stamped Grant as pick 5? Or would he have perhaps preferred a Grimes or Dangerfield? Perhaps geelong looks for certain traits and qualities in their draftess that we will also now show an interest in? Intersting to speculate.

[bornadog]

Will be interseting to see how Macca affects our drafting from here on in because he certainly has a big say so far, what with Smith v Crozier, the ex-ballarat boys and so on.

So hes not afraid to direct the drafters to pick certain traits or qualities that he wants - would he have rubber stamped Grant as pick 5? Or would he have perhaps preferred a Grimes or Dangerfield? Perhaps geelong looks for certain traits and qualities in their draftess that we will also now show an interest in? Intersting to speculate.

Yes will make a difference in the future. Also depends on where you finish for the season and what picks you get.

[LostDoggy]

Besides, until last year, weren't all our players also playing in a very good team? We were in three prelim finals. If top teams are where youngsters can come into and prosper then surely we were one of those teams?

BAD, I also love how you dismiss Sydney's record because "they are good at recruiting and recycling". Isn't that PRECISELY what we're talking about here? Their achievements get downgraded because they're expected to be good at it, but we get a pass because we're expected to be crap at it?

--

About writing these guys off too early: I would like to see evidence of any players over the past 10 years that were written off that turned around and proved the punters wrong. I doubt there would be that many -- Harbrow comes to mind. Over the past 5 years I've seen club apologists (including myself!) defend the likes of Hooper, Everitt, Hill, Mulligan, Skipper, O'Keefe, Lynch etc. Other than stupid scapegoating of players like Gia and Hargrave (who were always in our top 22), which young players have proven early assessments wrong?

[LostDoggy]

All I know is in the past 5 drafts we picked amongst others, Ward, Harbrow, Jones, Dahlhaus, Libba, Picken and Jones. Ok we lost two to new teams but you can't agrue that these guys are not above average.

Again, BAD, sorry, but it is you who is missing everyone's point. Of the 6 guys you mentioned (you said Jones twice), three of them were picked in the rookie draft and one was a F/S. EVERYONE I've read on this post has acknowledged our rookie and late pick drafting has been exceptional; it is our 1st and 2nd round drafting we are criticising.

[bornadog]

About writing these guys off too early: I would like to see evidence of any players over the past 10 years that were written off that turned around and proved the punters wrong. I doubt there would be that many -- Harbrow comes to mind. Over the past 5 years I've seen club apologists (including myself!) defend the likes of Hooper, Everitt, Hill, Mulligan, Skipper, O'Keefe, Lynch etc. Other than stupid scapegoating of players like Gia and Hargrave (who were always in our top 22), which young players have proven early assessments wrong?

Ok, so we all agree Roughead, Tutt, Howard, Wallis, Cordy are all no good.

[bornadog]

Again, BAD, sorry, but it is you who is missing everyone's point. Of the 6 guys you mentioned (you said Jones twice), three of them were picked in the rookie draft and one was a F/S. EVERYONE I've read on this post has acknowledged our rookie and late pick drafting has been exceptional; it is our 1st and 2nd round drafting we are criticising.

No I didn't miss the point at all. I showed you our 1st and 2nd rounds versus Geelong and Collingwood and they stacked up.

[Sedat]

EVERYONE I've read on this post has acknowledged our rookie and late pick drafting has been exceptional; it is our 1st and 2nd round drafting we are criticising.Sigh, thanks Lantern. I've mentioned several times in the past just how excellent our drafting record has been with late picks and rookie selections, but that we have fluffed our lines too often in the first and second round of the ND.

[bornadog]

Besides, until last year, weren't all our players also playing in a very good team? We were in three prelim finals. If top teams are where youngsters can come into and prosper then surely we were one of those teams?

So we must have recruited well because we played in three prelims.

[LostDoggy]

Ok, so we all agree Roughead, Tutt, Howard, Wallis, Cordy are all no good.

I dunno -- I would like to see what the strike rate is on players dramatically improving after 4-5 middling years on a list. I know a few ruckmen have done it (Jamar et al), but it's just not a common occurence. I have good vibes about Wallis and Cordy (IF he stays fit which is a big if), and maybe possibly Tutt, but Roughie is iffy, and Howard... I dunno.

I guess we'll all see in 3-5 years won't we? (Although we'll have to define the criteria of 'good' -- because we seem to have quite different standards!)

[Sedat]

No I didn't miss the point at all. I showed you our 1st and 2nd rounds versus Geelong and Collingwood and they stacked up.But they don't stack up, not today anyway. Our boys are a long way behind in terms of impact at senior level, right here and now. That is indisputable.

[bornadog]

But they don't stack up, not today anyway. Our boys are a long way behind in terms of impact at senior level, right here and now. That is indisputable.

So you are only including Round one and round two draft picks for the past 5 years?

Collingwood
Mccarthy -gone no good
Sidebottom
Beams
Ball
Fassolo

Thats all the players that have played more than 10 games. You can add Leigh Brown as a round 5 speculative that paid off. But Ball and Brown were ready made not drafting 18 year olds.

Sidebottom over his career averages 18 disposals. Beams 20 disposals. They are made to look good because of Swan, Daisy and Pendles.

[bornadog]

I dunno -- I would like to see what the strike rate is on players dramatically improving after 4-5 middling years on a list. I know a few ruckmen have done it (Jamar et al), but it's just not a common occurence. I have good vibes about Wallis and Cordy (IF he stays fit which is a big if), and maybe possibly Tutt, but Roughie is iffy, and Howard... I dunno.

I guess we'll all see in 3-5 years won't we? (Although we'll have to define the criteria of 'good' -- because we seem to have quite different standards!)

Argh, now you see my point;)

My standard is we have to be top 4 and make a GF

[Mofra]

Ok, so we all agree Roughead, Tutt, Howard, Wallis, Cordy are all no good.
Who said that?


No I didn't miss the point at all. I showed you our 1st and 2nd rounds versus Geelong and Collingwood and they stacked up.
No, most would say they don't - Collingwood clearly blow us out of the water (and I haven't mentioned that Dane Swan was a 2nd rounder :eek:)

[bornadog]

(and I haven't mentioned that Dane Swan was a 2nd rounder :eek:)

yeah in 2001, was actually round 4 pick 58 and we picked Lake in round 6, pick 71;)

[BulldogBelle]

Argh, now you see my point;)

My standard is we have to be top 4 and make a GF



BAD - agree with your points on our drafting. Its been more good than bad of late. Although in the Clayton era we tended to 'gamble' with our 1st and 2nd round picks and at times selected players who we obviously rated moreso that other clubs

From 2002 until when Clayton departed (2008 was his last draft with us?) we made more blunders in the 1st and 2nd round than we had successes - we are paying the price for that now




2002
1. Walsh :eek:
1. Faulkner :eek:
2. Minson
2. Murphy (Brad) :eek:
2. Bassett :eek:

2003
1. Cooney
1. Ray :confused:

2004
1. Griffen
1. Williams
2. Wells :eek:

2005
1. Higgins :confused:
2. Addison :confused:

2006
1. Everitt :eek:

2007
1. Grant :confused:
2. Ward

2008
1. Cordy - too early to tell
2. Roughead - too early to tell
2. Jones - too early to tell

[Mofra]

yeah in 2001, was actually round 4 pick 58 and we picked Lake in round 6, pick 71;)
My bad - Clayton always seems to do better with late than early picks though.

Makes you wonder what we would have uncovered if we had the same opportunities to take rookies that other clubs have had over the journey

[bornadog]

My bad - Clayton always seems to do better with late than early picks though.

Makes you wonder what we would have uncovered if we had the same opportunities to take rookies that other clubs have had over the journey

Hawthorn really effected us in the years 2001 to 2005 when we weren't playing well. As mentioned previously they had priority picks in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, and pick 8, in 2001.

They picked up the nucleus of a team that won a premiership and are still benefiting this year. In the same period we picked up Cooney and Griffen when we were near the bottom.

We should have tanked.:)

[Sedat]

In the same period we picked up Cooney and Griffen when we were near the bottom.
We picked up Jordan McMahon in 2000 (pick 10), Sam Power in 2001 (pick 10), Tim Walsh (pick 4) and Cam 'next McLeod' Faulkner (pick 17) both in 2002. Then in 2003 we got Farren Ray in 2003 (pick 4), and then pissed away pick 6 (effectively Rawlings), pick 19 (Koops), pick 20 (Street) and pick 35 (Morgan). Whilst the 2003 ND stunk it up in the main, it still delivered David Mundy at the Koops pick, Sam Butler at the Street pick, and talented players like Sam Fisher and Nick Malceski beyond these picks. That is 4 years of ND first and second round busts by the Dogs, as well as the catastrophe of 2003 trade week that ultimately meant that we lacked those 2-3 elite talents in 2008-2009 that would have made all the difference between heart-breaking PF losses and winning a flag.

One thing is certain, Dalrymple is the most critical employee at our club in the next 12 months. We simply need to nail our high-end selections next year for our list to take shape for a tilt at another flag beyond 2015.

[chef]

We picked up Jordan McMahon in 2000 (pick 10), Sam Power in 2001 (pick 10), Tim Walsh (pick 4) and Cam 'next McLeod' Faulkner (pick 17) both in 2002. Then in 2003 we got Farren Ray in 2003 (pick 4), and then pissed away pick 6 (effectively Rawlings), pick 19 (Koops), pick 20 (Street) and pick 35 (Morgan). Whilst the 2003 ND stunk it up in the main, it still delivered David Mundy at the Koops pick, Sam Butler at the Street pick, and talented players like Sam Fisher and Nick Malceski beyond these picks. That is 4 years of ND first and second round busts by the Dogs, as well as the catastrophe of 2003 trade week that ultimately meant that we lacked those 2-3 elite talents in 2008-2009 that would have made all the difference between heart-breaking PF losses and winning a flag.

One thing is certain, Dalrymple is the most critical employee at our club in the next 12 months. We simply need to nail our high-end selections next year for our list to take shape for a tilt at another flag beyond 2015.

This.

We will have at least 5 picks in the first 3 rounds(with probably 2 top 5 picks) this year.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

One thing is certain, Dalrymple is the most critical employee at our club in the next 12 months. We simply need to nail our high-end selections next year for our list to take shape for a tilt at another flag beyond 2015.

This is one thing we can all agree on.

I have more faith in Dalrymple hitting the mark than Clayton did. Thus far, I think Dalrymple's picks have been pretty solid (minus Howard).

We are suffering right now because Clayton stuffed up a hell of a lot from that 02-08 mark.

[azabob]

This is one thing we can all agree on.

I have more faith in Dalrymple hitting the mark than Clayton did. Thus far, I think Dalrymple's picks have been pretty solid (minus Howard).

We are suffering right now because Clayton stuffed up a hell of a lot from that 02-08 mark.

Wonder if gold coast didn't poach Clayton would we have moved him on yet?

[Sedat]

Wonder if gold coast didn't poach Clayton would we have moved him on yet?
Probaby would still be at the kennel. Whist his recruting was a little hit and miss, he was a brilliant contract negotiator. We've certainly missed that skill in the last 3 years, either paying overs for some key players players or losing some altogether.

I know it's early days but Clayton had 7 of the first 10 picks in 2010 and missed both Gaff and Heppell. Are there any tall KPP's that Clayton drafted to GC that are coming along well?

[LostDoggy]

This is one thing we can all agree on.

I have more faith in Dalrymple hitting the mark than Clayton did. Thus far, I think Dalrymple's picks have been pretty solid (minus Howard).

Which holds us in good stead as long as we take the best couple of run and carry players available with our two first rounders. Assuming we bottom out and get picks 4 and 5, if you add a Pendles and a Fyfe with those two picks and Cordy, Roughy and Jones continue on with it then we've got a very strong list by 2015/16. Cooney, Griffin, Libba, Smith, Dahl, Pendles, Fyfe, Wallis kind of works for me as the foundation for a flag... Have to get it right and I seriously hope we are overinvesting in our draft analysis this year. It's as critical as anything we'll see on the field.

[ledge]

We know whoever Macca decides to take in the draft will be hard and a good role model outside of footy.
So next draft if we are undecided on a choice of two those will be the deciding factors I would imagine.

[Mofra]

I have more faith in Dalrymple hitting the mark than Clayton did. Thus far, I think Dalrymple's picks have been pretty solid (minus Howard).
Broad concensus was that if we didn't take Howard we'd take Pittard (Port).
Neither have set the world on fire yet.

[LostDoggy]

Broad concensus was that if we didn't take Howard we'd take Pittard (Port).
Neither have set the world on fire yet.
He got a rising star award 25 possies in a crows game but I'm not sure that means much.

Either way I think Fyfe would be great, Menzel looked good when he played and Pittard maybe.

[stefoid]

Probaby would still be at the kennel. Whist his recruting was a little hit and miss, he was a brilliant contract negotiator. We've certainly missed that skill in the last 3 years, either paying overs for some key players players or losing some altogether.

I know it's early days but Clayton had 7 of the first 10 picks in 2010 and missed both Gaff and Heppell. Are there any tall KPP's that Clayton drafted to GC that are coming along well?

I reckon clayton has poor risk management. He tries to hit the ball out of the park too often with a pick rather than going for the safer option, he ignores high risk red flags like temperament and intensity, and he values skills and athleticism perhaps higher than footy smarts.

Plus he is all about 'best available' with high picks, saving 'team balance' for poor picks, which I think is exactly arse about. Its certainly the most defensible philosophy to have for the recuriter himself, but its not the best for the team.

Anyway, we wont have that 'best available' conundrum this year at least - the lsit is overflowing with young talls and we depserately need some clasy mids, so the 'best available' is also likely to be the type of player we need.

[stefoid]

He got a rising star award 25 possies in a crows game but I'm not sure that means much.

Either way I think Fyfe would be great, Menzel looked good when he played and Pittard maybe.

Fyfe was a good pick, but look at Dalhaus for a rookie pick. Sometimes players dont show what they can do until after draft day.

[azabob]

Fyfe was a good pick, but look at Dalhaus for a rookie pick. Sometimes players dont show what they can do until after draft day.

Not sure that is the case with Fyfe. I think mjp was a big wrap for him pre draft day.

[DragzLS1]

Our biggest issue is getting the fans to the games. And once we are there we dont make enough NOISE!! I want to hear everybody fired up especially at a home game! I reckon the West Coast cheer squad was louder then all the bulldogs supporters we had there.. Lets get behind the boys we cant expect them to fire up and want to play if we dont have all the supporters behind them.

Then we can start picking on players and ask them the question why they arnt performing.

Dahlhaus gets a buzz when he hears the crowd roar when he gets the ball, dont see why its any different with any of the other players.

[stefoid]

Not sure that is the case with Fyfe. I think mjp was a big wrap for him pre draft day.

I was talking more the fact he was passed over by the recruiters for 15 AFL teams before being picked up at 20. He went first round, so he wasnt in Dals league of being overlooked, but still , he would go top 5 in retrosepct. Thats still a big difference in perceievd and actual value.

We were looking for very good kicks of the ball as a first priority with Howard and Tutt -- this strategy might still pay off if you consider where our team is currently at.

[mighty_west]

To me, our bigger issue seems to be the older players, will they be part of our next rise up the ladder, clearly now in a rebuilding phase.

Not sure about Gilbee, seems to be stuggling alot with the old mans injury, Crossy seems to be in danger with quite a few kids prepared to get their hands dirty [a good thing], Murph is still class but getting on, same with Gia.

Another issue may be, do we have too many fringe type players, DJ, Moles, Sherman [he's had one decent season at the Lions], Dickson [may be harsh but can notice definate limitations to his game], Markovic [very handy with the injuries to Williams and Morris, but again, more of a spare parts tall]. Addison, Vezspremi, Hooper.

Kicking for goal, especially our young tall forwards coming through, Grant seems to always be very hit or miss, Jones isn't that much better, Roughead [as a resting forward] can definatly take some nice grabs, but again seems to miss alot of goals, Panos is one that is a very good set shot, but will he be good enough to make the grade?

[LostDoggy]

Fyfe was a good pick, but look at Dalhaus for a rookie pick. Sometimes players dont show what they can do until after draft day.

We are talking the Howard draft pick not rookies.

[LostDoggy]

Also available around the Howard pick apart from Fyfe, Menzel and Pittard were Ryan Bastinac and Luke Tapscott. Both rising star round winners.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

We were looking for very good kicks of the ball as a first priority with Howard and Tutt -- this strategy might still pay off if you consider where our team is currently at.

How long will we have to wait?

A lot of the other players drafted around that range (Fyfe, Menzel) have already seriously contributed to their sides and are undoubtedly long term players.

Howard and Tutt have shown signs on occasion, but that's really it.

I think Tutt can carve out a solid career, but Howard is coming from a really long way back.

[stefoid]

How long will we have to wait?

A lot of the other players drafted around that range (Fyfe, Menzel) have already seriously contributed to their sides and are undoubtedly long term players.

Howard and Tutt have shown signs on occasion, but that's really it.

I think Tutt can carve out a solid career, but Howard is coming from a really long way back.

Is he? compared to 5 or 6 picks in the first round that have come on quickly, well yeah.

Comapred to the other picks before and after him, he is about on course.

Have a look at the first round, ( which we had the 2nd last pick of) and tell me how many of those guys are more than fringe players for their teams? not many.

And you could name a player or two at Tutts pick (31) that you might rather with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, I am pretty happy with a guy who is quick, a long booming kick and a chance to play midfield for us this year. Just what we need!

You are setting yourself up for disapointment if you expect every 1st/2nd round pick to become best 22 players within 3 years of being drafted.

[bornadog]

You are setting yourself up for disapointment if you expect every 1st/2nd round pick to become best 22 players within 3 years of being drafted.

This^^^^

[comrade]

You are setting yourself up for disapointment if you expect every 1st/2nd round pick to become best 22 players within 3 years of being drafted.

Why shouldn't we expect a first round pick to at least be a contributing best 22 player within 3 years? Especially if he's a small-mid sized player.

[bornadog]

Why shouldn't we expect a first round pick to at least be a contributing best 22 player within 3 years? Especially if he's a small-mid sized player.

Looking at those drafted in 2009, see below:

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/mmsalih/Untitled-10.jpg

Out of a possible 45 games (home and away, ie 2010, 2011 and 1 game this year), 32 players were drafted and only half have played more than 15 games and 12 have played less than 10 including Howard and Tutt.

It does take at least 3 years to get going for some players whereas there those that have played over 30 games (9 players) and the ones you want.

Just showing this for interest and discussion.

[Mofra]

Good table BAD, although difficult comparison given talls generally take longer and kids all come into the system with different builds.

Looks like Essendon & North nailed their picks at first glance, I did like the look of Carlisle when I saw him in the VFL

[Greystache]

Good table BAD, although difficult comparison given talls generally take longer and kids all come into the system with different builds.

Looks like Essendon & North nailed their picks at first glance, I did like the look of Carlisle when I saw him in the VFL

I saw a lot of him last year and I was extremely impressed. Given he was thrown into defence to cover injuries when he'd been a forward as a junior I thought he did a brilliant job. It'll be interesting to see what they do with him in the future, whether than keep developing him as a forward or whether they play him in defence.

Also given how skinny he was when drafted he certainly has bulked up.

[bornadog]

Good table BAD, although difficult comparison given talls generally take longer and kids all come into the system with different builds.

Looks like Essendon & North nailed their picks at first glance, I did like the look of Carlisle when I saw him in the VFL

That really was one of my points when we were discussing how good we are at drafting. I guess it depends what your list management priorities are and when you expect your draft pick to be playing.

eg, We have been told Howard was picked to eventually replace Gilbee. Now they are easing Howard into it so the transition begins? (not sure if this is correct, but just saying)

[comrade]

Looking at those drafted in 2009, see below:

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/mmsalih/Untitled-10.jpg

Out of a possible 45 games (home and away, ie 2010, 2011 and 1 game this year), 32 players were drafted and only half have played more than 15 games and 12 have played less than 10 including Howard and Tutt.

It does take at least 3 years to get going for some players whereas there those that have played over 30 games (9 players) and the ones you want.

Just showing this for interest and discussion.

That just proves we blew the Howard pick badly.

Fyfe, Menzel, Duncan, Tapscott, Bastinac, Colyer and Pittard were all highly credentialed and went through the elite pathway in U/18 - is it any wonder they have exceeded Howard's output?

[Go_Dogs]

That just proves we blew the Howard pick badly.

Fyfe, Menzel, Duncan, Tapscott, Bastinac, Colyer and Pittard were all highly credentialed and went through the elite pathway in U/18 - is it any wonder they have exceeded Howard's output?

It's a reasonable argument given Howard didn't play in the U/18 carnival and unlike a number of SA draftees hadn't been a League level player.

That being said, it's as though we don't (or didn't) place as much of a premium on selecting players who can impact immediately. Perhaps the success of Libba last year, and Smith this year shows we are now giving greater consideration to immediate impact as well as the longer term. Dahlhaus and Schofield both gave us similar last year playing a number of games. As of right now, Libba and Dahlhaus both project as good long term prospects. and have also provided the immediate impact.

At the end of the day we need kids who can play, but if we perceive some are more ready to play than others should it be a consideration?

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

A bit both ways. I think we lack fire power, our key guys don't seem to have a big bag of tricks, or just don't bring it with them. I wish we'd convert more opportunities in front of goal, especially from set shots. We need to take our chances.

Skills in general were poor. Wood just made a mess of everything and there were a lot of hurried, poor passes by hand which caused a turnover.

I will say it again that Wood was terrible and makes too many errors as a defender. Given his dash he maybe better suited to a wing. Cross who is as game as they come shouldn't be played consistently on a wing due to his lack of mobility and now appears to do his best work dropping back in defence and being good overhead may well be better placed at half back.

[bornadog]

That just proves we blew the Howard pick badly.

Doesn't prove anything, as I said earlier, Howard may have been targeted as the replacement for Gilbee and was recruited knowing he won't be playing in his first season.


It's a reasonable argument given Howard didn't play in the U/18 carnival and unlike a number of SA draftees hadn't been a League level player.

That being said, it's as though we don't (or didn't) place as much of a premium on selecting players who can impact immediately. Perhaps the success of Libba last year, and Smith this year shows we are now giving greater consideration to immediate impact as well as the longer term. Dahlhaus and Schofield both gave us similar last year playing a number of games. As of right now, Libba and Dahlhaus both project as good long term prospects. and have also provided the immediate impact.

At the end of the day we need kids who can play, but if we perceive some are more ready to play than others should it be a consideration?

I agree with you, some players you may want to play straight away and others later. Talls for instant take longer to mature. Have a look at the table above and you can see Butcher has only played 5 games for example, but is considered a great prospect for the future. Talia won't be playing seniors this year in my opinion unless he shows some extraordinary talent at Willi.

[Dazza]

I think going forward. If we are drafting tall forwards with low picks they need to have aggression and arrogance. For mine skills and athleticism are less important for a big man.

Look at Jack Watts, Jarrod Grant and Everitt as an example.

All the skills and athleticism in the world but it isn't translating into being good players at the moment.

Need the arrogant brutes like Franklin, Hurley and J.Reiwoldt. You could add Butcher to this group soon.

[Mofra]

That just proves we blew the Howard pick badly.

Fyfe, Menzel, Duncan, Tapscott, Bastinac, Colyer and Pittard were all highly credentialed and went through the elite pathway in U/18 - is it any wonder they have exceeded Howard's output?
I understand it was Howard vs Pittard for the pick.
Howard had hip issues in his first year, and Pittard has played in a less credentialled team so should be a little ahead in games played.

At this stage we certainly do seem to be behind most other sides though for this draft.

[Dazza]

I have no issue with the Howard and Tutt selections. On team balance. We made the right call.

Probably going to get shot down for this. But IMO taking Smith this year wasn't the right call more so than Howard or Tutt. Granted he's going to be a good player. But on team balance it didn't make much sense.

Mckenzie made much more sense to me.

[jeemak]

I have no issue with the Howard and Tutt selections. On team balance. We made the right call.

Probably going to get shot down for this. But IMO taking Smith this year wasn't the right call more so than Howard or Tutt. Granted he's going to be a good player. But on team balance it didn't make much sense.

Mckenzie made much more sense to me.

You need to look at the Smith selection in light of who we will be losing over the next couple of years. Cross and Boyd will be gone, leaving Wallis, Liberatore and Smith to fill their places. Prior to taking Smith we also saw a hole in this area after Ward's departure.

Those looking at our midfield and saying we're top heavy for grunt using it as a reason for not drafting Smith are extremely short sighted. Sure, we need to add more outside run and carry to our midfield over the next draft, though there wouldn't be much point in having these types of players on our list if we didn't have sufficient means of winning the hard ball to feed them.

[bornadog]

Look at Jack Watts, .

What a mistake Melbourne made with not picking Nic Nat.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I have no issue with the Howard and Tutt selections. On team balance. We made the right call.

Probably going to get shot down for this. But IMO taking Smith this year wasn't the right call more so than Howard or Tutt. Granted he's going to be a good player. But on team balance it didn't make much sense.

Mckenzie made much more sense to me.

Jeemak summed up the strategy pretty well. Plus -- this year's draft is supposed to be a proclaimed super draft. Thus, better quality players will be available -- particularly with our earlier picks. It'll be easier to pick one or two skillful mids with these picks, than it would have been last year.

Clay was the safe option -- and a pretty good one at that IMO.

Smith and Libba are going to be really tough, inside players for the future. Hopefully Wallis develops too -- it'd be a solid core.


What a mistake Melbourne made with not picking Nic Nat.

Yep -- and on so many levels. Nic Nat from a marketing perspective would have been huge for Melbourne, let alone his ability to impact games from day one, let alone his continual and rapid rise.

They'd have to be worried about Watts' progress. He looks like Jarrad Grant -- anything but a key position player, and he's got no pace.

[stefoid]

There is a bees dick difference between 7 games and 15 games played 3 years in, taking different teams requirements and injuries and what not into account, it means essentially the same thing -fringe players just starting to earn their place in the side.

[Sedat]

Yep -- and on so many levels. Nic Nat from a marketing perspective would have been huge for Melbourne, let alone his ability to impact games from day one, let alone his continual and rapid rise.

They'd have to be worried about Watts' progress. He looks like Jarrad Grant -- anything but a key position player, and he's got no pace.
I would take Watts off Melbourne in a heartbeat. His disposal by foot around the ground is almost as elite as I've seen from a big man since Chris Grant was playing. He is also a very good decision maker with ball in hand. He could, and should, develop into a very good lead-up half forward as his endurance level continues to improve. But he will never be the key forward gorilla that Menbourne drafted him for.

[Greystache]

Jeemak summed up the strategy pretty well. Plus -- this year's draft is supposed to be a proclaimed super draft. Thus, better quality players will be available -- particularly with our earlier picks. It'll be easier to pick one or two skillful mids with these picks, than it would have been last year.

Clay was the safe option -- and a pretty good one at that IMO.

Smith and Libba are going to be really tough, inside players for the future. Hopefully Wallis develops too -- it'd be a solid core.



Yep -- and on so many levels. Nic Nat from a marketing perspective would have been huge for Melbourne, let alone his ability to impact games from day one, let alone his continual and rapid rise.

They'd have to be worried about Watts' progress. He looks like Jarrad Grant -- anything but a key position player, and he's got no pace.

He may lack in a few key areas, but Watts was one of the quickest non-indigenous players ever to attend the draft camp. Based on their testing Watts is quicker than Grant.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I would take Watts off Melbourne in a heartbeat. His disposal by foot around the ground is almost as elite as I've seen from a big man since Chris Grant was playing. He is also a very good decision maker with ball in hand. He could, and should, develop into a very good lead-up half forward as his endurance level continues to improve. But he will never be the key forward gorilla that Menbourne drafted him for.

He doesn't play like a big man though. I agree his skill and decision making is sound, but there are mids and small/medium forwards that will do it better than he does -- especially in the half forward lead-up role.

From an opposition standpoint, his height is irrelevant. You could play a Hargrave or Murphy type on Watts, and they'd murder him on the rebound. He's never going to get a big, lumbering player that he can 'burn' off (eg. a Markovic type). He'll attract those quick medium defenders (Murphy, Hargrave, Morris or O'Brien for eg).


He may lack in a few key areas, but Watts was one of the quickest non-indigenous players ever to attend the draft camp. Based on their testing Watts is quicker than Grant.

He has never shown it on the football field IMO. I'd be surprised if he was half as quick as Grant. He's certainly agile and he's not dead slow, but I don't think I would describe Watts as a player with pace.

Watts = a better version of Everitt.

[BulldogBelle]

I think going forward. If we are drafting tall forwards with low picks they need to have aggression and arrogance. For mine skills and athleticism are less important for a big man.

Look at Jack Watts, Jarrod Grant and Everitt as an example.

All the skills and athleticism in the world but it isn't translating into being good players at the moment.

Need the arrogant brutes like Franklin, Hurley and J.Reiwoldt. You could add Butcher to this group soon.


^^^^

This

And until Grant develops the endurance to make consistent, repeated and sustained efforts throughout the game he isnt going to be a game changer or kick > 40 goals per season

[Bulldog4life]

Is he? compared to 5 or 6 picks in the first round that have come on quickly, well yeah.

Comapred to the other picks before and after him, he is about on course.

Have a look at the first round, ( which we had the 2nd last pick of) and tell me how many of those guys are more than fringe players for their teams? not many.

And you could name a player or two at Tutts pick (31) that you might rather with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, I am pretty happy with a guy who is quick, a long booming kick and a chance to play midfield for us this year. Just what we need!

You are setting yourself up for disapointment if you expect every 1st/2nd round pick to become best 22 players within 3 years of being drafted.

Most sensible thing I've read.

[Dazza]

[/B]


^^^^

This

And until Grant develops the endurance to make consistent, repeated and sustained efforts throughout the game he isnt going to be a game changer or kick > 40 goals per season

Even average types with arrogance and aggression like Mooney would be better to take than the skilled and athletic talls IMO.

[LostDoggy]

Most sensible thing I've read.

How many years do you think is reasonable then? Genuine question. Sure it's all fine to say that you can't expect every 1st/2nd round pick to contribute within 3 years (although I disagree with non-talls), but you do expect them to start contributing at some point, yeah?

What's that point?

It's an important question because every year you keep a non-contributor on the list you are both paying for someone who may never make it, and conversely, also have to pay the opportunity cost of NOT having someone else on the list that may very well make it (and the number of rookies we've had that has made it suggests that EVERY spot on the list counts).

--

ps. For sake of argument, my rule of thumb is roughly 2 years for non-talls and 4-5 years for talls. I'm not saying they have to become superstars in that time, but to at least start contributing and showing something, even if it is dominating the VFL. If a non-tall is not showing something in his first couple of years on a list I argue strongly that unless something dramatically changes (maturity, etc.) he's not going to make it, and you may as well replace them with a good mature-age player because you're going to get more output in the meantime. Talls get a couple more years, but even then they should be showing an upward trend from year to year.

[Bulldog4life]

How many years do you think is reasonable then? Genuine question. Sure it's all fine to say that you can't expect every 1st/2nd round pick to contribute within 3 years (although I disagree with non-talls), but you do expect them to start contributing at some point, yeah?
-

ps. For sake of argument, my rule of thumb is roughly 2 years for non-talls and 4-5 years for talls. I'm not saying they have to become superstars in that time, but to at least start contributing and showing something, even if it is dominating the VFL. If a non-tall is not showing something in his first couple of years on a list I argue strongly that unless something dramatically changes (maturity, etc.) he's not going to make it, and you may as well replace them with a good mature-age player because you're going to get more output in the meantime. Talls get a couple more years, but even then they should be showing an upward trend from year to year.

It is a bit like asking how long is a piece of string. But as you mention in your second paragraph I would say roughly 4-6 years for talls and 2-3 years for non talls. But then there will be other players who are not worth persisting with for various other reasons: off field stuff, attitude etc. etc.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Bigger issue is midfield. As has been mentioned we lack some real class and polish in finishing. I'm not going to say our forward problems are solved, but we had 10 goals on the board early in second so it did function in patches. It's just going to need time to develop. Another injection of draft talent is required for a year or two, but I didn't leave the game devastated today. If the year is spent filtering the list then so be it.

The midfield is definitely the key and at present we lack class, skill, pace and depth in this area. We were slaughtered by the WCE out of the middle with Priddis a standout. Griffen is our only midfielder apart from Cooney who is capable of breaking the lines. Boyd is a ball magnet but doesn't hurt the opposition. Liberatore and Smith will be good additions in the midfield. Picken is our only tagger and is honest as they come but tends to struggle against class midfielders. I would prefer to see Cross played in defence where he does his best work. Wood looks better suited with his dash as a winger and could be a handy addition further afield. Dahlhaus because of his speed could become an elite midfielder. The top 4-5 teams are all powerful in the midfield and this is where we need to get a lot better in order to move up the ladder.

[jeemak]

The midfield is definitely the key and at present we lack class, skill, pace and depth in this area. We were slaughtered by the WCE out of the middle with Priddis a standout. Griffen is our only midfielder apart from Cooney who is capable of breaking the lines. Boyd is a ball magnet but doesn't hurt the opposition. Liberatore and Smith will be good additions in the midfield. Picken is our only tagger and is honest as they come but tends to struggle against class midfielders. I would prefer to see Cross played in defence where he does his best work. Wood looks better suited with his dash as a winger and could be a handy addition further afield. Dahlhaus because of his speed could become an elite midfielder. The top 4-5 teams are all powerful in the midfield and this is where we need to get a lot better in order to move up the ladder.

Cross would get an absolute pasting against either quick forwards or strong and talented medium forwards. I agree that he is good at reading the ball coming in to assist other defenders and takes marks with courage, theough being accountable for a man for the entire game requires athleticism he doesn't have.

Wood needs to develop in defense. It will take a while though, and we need to bite the bullet and accept there will be some pain along the way. He needs to take more care with disposal by foot and by hand, and that's my major concern with him.

[GVGjr]

While this has turned into a recruiting thread I'll add my bit

I don't mind Howard as a footballer and think he can still develop into a nice flanker winger however, his selection didn't make a lot of sense for us given his was not a quick running player and the following year we were always going to look at two father son selections who were also not known for their pace. We 'reached' for Howard because apparently we were more worried about Adelaide in the 2nd round taking him.
On top of that we were also heading into compromised drafts so to me it just didn't make a lot of sense to reach for a player that was always going to be a long term project and especially someone who never followed the elite pathway to the AFL.

Tutt also didn't make a lot sense to me especially with Sam Reid (Sydney) still available

And in 2011 in a draft that had it's share of speedsters we ignored that and went for hard it players. We are very lucky that Dahlhaus was available in the rookie draft.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Cross would get an absolute pasting against either quick forwards or strong and talented medium forwards. I agree that he is good at reading the ball coming in to assist other defenders and takes marks with courage, theough being accountable for a man for the entire game requires athleticism he doesn't have.

Wood needs to develop in defense. It will take a while though, and we need to bite the bullet and accept there will be some pain along the way. He needs to take more care with disposal by foot and by hand, and that's my major concern with him.

Wood makes too many errors in defence and has had plenty of time to improve in this area. His performance against WCE was pathetic. The loss of Harbrow last year and now Morris and Williams in defence tends to highlight even more the mistakes of Wood who to my mind panics under pressure. I hope you are right but I have my doubts. I have the greatest respect for Cross but as a midfielder the game is getting past him. I can well understand your concerns about playing him on the backline but with a shaky defence now, with the right match up he could provide the steadiness and experience required.

[w3design]

Skills skills skills skills skills skills.

Our skill level is at times woeful. Little point in getting the ball if you can't do any damage with it (our if you give it straight back)

Agree 100% skills cost us.

[jeemak]

GVGjr, surely the Tutt selection makes sense in lieu of us picking Howard with our first round selection? Sam Reid would be very handy on our list, agree.

[jeemak]

Wood makes too many errors in defence and has had plenty of time to improve in this area. His performance against WCE was pathetic. The loss of Harbrow last year and now Morris and Williams in defence tends to highlight even more the mistakes of Wood who to my mind panics under pressure. I hope you are right but I have my doubts. I have the greatest respect for Cross but as a midfielder the game is getting past him. I can well understand your concerns about playing him on the backline but with a shaky defence now, with the right match up he could provide the steadiness and experience required.

I understand your concerns with Wood, though I'd suggest that he needs more time to gain composure and establish how much time he has to use the ball this season. He had a pretty serious injury last year, and like most athletic players needs a bit more time than your natural footballers. If he doesn't improve in this area this year and next, then I don't think there will be a spot on the list for him either in the midfield or defense.

With Cross, I just don't think you would get too many "good" match ups for him. If he was an opposition defender, who of our guys in Higgins, Dahlhaus, Giansiracusa, Dickson or DJ would you play him on? In my mind all of them would give him a lot of grief, and Dahl is the only quick out of all of them.

[GVGjr]

GVGjr, surely the Tutt selection makes sense in lieu of us picking Howard with our first round selection? Sam Reid would be very handy on our list, agree.

Not really, we had already selected a longer term project player (albeit with plenty of upside) so our next selection was an undersized player who would also need plenty of time.
Howard was projected as a HBF or winger while Tutt's size limited the options of where we could effectively use him.

In isolation most picks make sense but I think we needed a KPP with our 2nd pick if we had already picked up a flanker with the first.

Menzel and Reid made the most sense to me.

[mjp]

More mention of the super draft huh?

Well, tell me WHO? I have watched maybe 20 games of u18 footy already this year and there is no more talent than last year out west - and as you all know, WA WILL win the national championship.

[azabob]

More mention of the super draft huh?

Well, tell me WHO? I have watched maybe 20 games of u18 footy already this year and there is no more talent than last year out west - and as you all know, WA WILL win the national championship.

Are people calling it a super draft only because it is in-restricted?

[bornadog]

Are people calling it a super draft only because it is in-restricted?

No, supposedly a lot of young talent coming through.

[ledge]

I want to know how do they know its a super draft before the season starts?
Bit like TV channels put on ads saying Australias best drama this year and its only January.

[Happy Days]

Are people calling it a super draft only because it is in-restricted?

Unrestricted despite the best two players in it having already been taken?

[chef]

I want to know how do they know its a super draft before the season starts?Bit like TV channels put on ads saying Australias best drama this year and its only January.

They have been following this group of kids for a number of years now.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

They have been following this group of kids for a number of years now.

Is Hunter and Beasley coming up in this draft, maybe that is why we didn't go for KPP as we know these two are coming our why?

Guess wouldn't we love another Chris grant come our way.

[Greystache]

Is Hunter and Beasley coming up in this draft, maybe that is why we didn't go for KPP as we know these two are coming our why?

Guess wouldn't we love another Chris grant come our way.

Given Hunter is a midfielder and Beasley doesn't play football, I don't see how our KPP situation will be improved.

[ledge]

They have been following this group of kids for a number of years now.

Some kids are great in a small pond, get found out when they go to under 18s higher competition, i personally wouldnt be calling it super draft until the end of a season.
A lot of water under the bridge yet.

Who is calling it a super draft the media and Sheehan?
I get sick of Sheehan every year saying every kid is super, watch the state games and the under 18s gf and thats all he says about everyone.

Then 3 years later when only a few make it they call it a shallow draft.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Given Hunter is a midfielder and Beasley doesn't play football, I don't see how our KPP situation will be improved.

Sorry I thought that Beasley was playing and a CHB type.

Oh well I'll take Hunter then

[ledge]

Beasley took up rowing, last I heard he was back playing footy but no idea about his talent.

[azabob]

Unrestricted despite the best two players in it having already been taken?

Good point.

Well if mjp doesn't know where the talent is, then I sure don't.

[chef]

Sorry I thought that Beasley was playing and a CHB type.

Oh well I'll take Hunter then

Peter Fosters son plays for Calder, not sure how good he is or his position though.

[ledge]

Peter Fosters son plays for Calder, not sure how good he is or his position though.

Did Fozzie make the magic 100 games for us?

[ledge]

Our biggest issue?
As i just posted in another thread that should be here... stop recruiting forwards and throwing them down back at Willy when they start kicking goals.
No wonder we go on about our forward line missing something.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Did Fozzie make the magic 100 games for us?

Easily. 180-odd from memory

[AndrewP6]

Did Fozzie make the magic 100 games for us?

Foster played 163 games for the Dogs.

[ledge]

Foster played 163 games for the Dogs.

Awesome!!

[GVGjr]

Awesome!!

If you did a quick search you could have found that out yourself.

[ledge]

If you did a quick search you could have found that out yourself.

I know but Woof is the best site for Doggies stuff

[GVGjr]

I know but Woof is the best site for Doggies stuff

Seriously, rather than just blurt out questions and putting the onus on others to do the research for you it would be a big help if you at least tried to get some of them yourself.

[ledge]

Seriously, rather than just blurt out questions and putting the onus on others to do the research for you it would be a big help if you at least tried to get some of them yourself.

No problems I wont ask any questions on players games anymore.

[bornadog]

No problems I wont ask any questions on players games anymore.

A lot of good stats: here (http://footywire.com)