Game Day 2012 - R17 Western Bulldogs vs Carlton

[BulldogBelle]

This is the discussion thread for our Saturday evening game against Carlton at ES.

My predictions are:

The Dogs by 5 points
BOG : Matthew Boyd
Daniel Giansiracusa to kick the first goal

[Go_Dogs]

Carlton by 18
BOG Wallis
First goal Cordy

[Greystache]

Carlton by 8 points (50 vs 58)
BOG- Higgins
First Goal- Higgins

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Dogs by 24 points
BOG Minson
First Goal - The Ace

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Cartlon by 33 points
First Goal: Gia
BOG: Boyd

[Eastdog]

Dogs by 8 points
BOG: Matthew Boyd
First Goal: Daniel Giansircursa

[bulldogsman]

Dogs by 19 points
BOG Will Minson
First Goal Gia

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Dogs by 11 points
First goal Higgins
BOG Minson

[bornadog]

Dogs by 17 points (I haven't picked them for awhile)

BOG : Libba

First Goal: Higgins

[Ghost Dog]

Dogs by a kick
BOG: Boyd
First Goal: Grommit

[AndrewP6]

If we're going to pinch a win, this'd be it. However the pessimist in me wins out:

Blues by 13 (unlucky for us)
BOG for us Pickers
First goal Dahl

[Max469]

Our best chance for awhile.

I feel confident and hope I still feel that way a few hours time.

Dogs by 9 points

BOG - Griff

Ist Goal - GIA

Come on Dogs..Believe and for gods sake put the ball through the middle of the big sticks - many many times.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Fantastic start. 2 goals zip after a couple of minutes. 14 possessions to 0 as well.

[AndrewP6]

Griffen all over them early on, six touches.

[jeemak]

Can't get to the game tonight, have a 40th to get to soon. Seems like a bit of a lock in, with ordinary atmosphere.

Great hit by Howard, excellent slot by Williams.

[LostDoggy]

Some awful football from both sides. We have butchered some chances and so have Carlton.
Our disposal is very poor.
We lead 21-13.

[LostDoggy]

Williams looks alright.
Grant has showed some pace but his kicking has been off.

[KT31]

Question is, how can we dominate a quarter and not be further in front ?
IMO poor disposal and not making the most of opportunities could be somewhere to start.

[LostDoggy]

Gia hasn't got near the ball then gets it kicks one.

[LostDoggy]

Question is, how can we dominate a quarter and not be further in front ?
IMO poor disposal and not making the most of opportunities could be somewhere to start.

We just fumbled and missed about 3 handballs in a row in defence. That's how

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Very good poise by Boyd to squeeze out the handball in traffic to Dahl for that goal.

[LostDoggy]

Now 19 in front.
We shouldn't lose from here. They are as bad as us in disposal.

[LostDoggy]

Bye bye ratts 25 points

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Williams looking like a very good mobile target at CHF, nice goal!!!

[jeemak]

Williams has finished very decisively to put us up 51 to 26.

Grant has used his hands quite well. Cross's foot skill has been very good in spots.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Pearce needs to learn how to tackle. Missed two in the one passage of play. Hopefully another pre-season in the gym will help him

[LostDoggy]

Williams looking like a very good mobile target at CHF, nice goal!!!
yes looks good.
I can hear the Carlton fans bagging Bower from home.
Real slap in the face given Austin is Ok

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

yes looks good.
I can hear the Carlton fans bagging Bower from home.
Real slap in the face given Austin is Ok

Yep. Austin had no trouble going back into the hole when it was his turn just a few minutes after Bower squibbed it.

[jeemak]

By far the worst free kick I've seen given in a game of football just given to Betts, for the exact same thing Betts did to a player not 2 seconds beforehand.

The game and the way it's umpired is just disgusting sometimes.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Fantastic set of wheels from Dahl to lose Yarran, and then hit up Higgins.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

By far the worst free kick I've seen given in a game of football just given to Betts, for the exact same thing Betts did to a player not 2 seconds beforehand.

The game and the way it's umpired is just disgusting sometimes.

Yep, two weeks in a row the umps have given us a belting.

[KT31]

Williams is looking a prospect at CHF.
Still our disposal is poor and some of the decisions to go down the wide instead od inside baffle me.

[jeemak]

19 points up at half time. Probably a little short of where we should be.

[KT31]

By far the worst free kick I've seen given in a game of football just given to Betts, for the exact same thing Betts did to a player not 2 seconds beforehand.

The game and the way it's umpired is just disgusting sometimes.

Very ordinary, but on the hole has been OK.

[LostDoggy]

Well we have kicked our standard 8 goal for the game. Its over.

[comrade]

Dahl is just a gun.

Pearce's hands have been iffy, flat out dropping the ball twice when receiving it at speed.

Grant needs to make every post a winner. His first kick was horrid and his shot at goal was not good.

Williams as a permanent forward? I think a forward line with him and Jones can work. Where does that leave Cordy?

Wallis takes the short option every time, even if it's wrong. His risk limit is 0% and it hurts us at times. Most of our mids suffer from it. Coach instruction?

[EasternWest]

Williams looks alright.
Grant has showed some pace but his kicking has been off.

Is Grant looking any bigger from his supposed time in the gym?

[Eastdog]

Very good first half from us. It hasn't been a high pressure game but we are using the ball better than Carlton at the moment. Hopefully we don't drop off. Lake down back has been very good great marking. Higgins has been very good up forward and Dahlaus has been electric through the middle.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Bye bye ratts 25 points

Chops don't put the Mozz on us

[bornadog]

Is Grant looking any bigger from his supposed time in the gym?

No doesn't look any bigger. Is Playing well and has the ball 11 times.

[DOG GOD]

We have made some shocking errors in defense. Are we really playing ok or is Carlton really falling off the pace with so many out?

On a positive though, Williams could definitely be the CHF we are graving. In the 2 games so far he has exceeded roughead and Cordy in THAT position.

[Eastdog]

I might add that Tom Williams at CHF is playing well.

[chef]

Grant looks bigger to me.

[Eastdog]

We have made some shocking errors in defense. Are we really playing ok or is Carlton really falling off the pace with so many out?

On a positive though, Williams could definitely be the CHF we are graving. In the 2 games so far he has exceeded roughead and Cordy in THAT position.

He has looked good so far in this match and last week against Hawthorn. Jones would have been a good inclusion tonight.

[bornadog]

Grant looks bigger to me.

It's the haircut

[Bumper Bulldogs]

For mine the forward line with Griff and Higgins rotating looks really good along side of Williams.

The young guys have made a few Bowes that have cost us but at least they look to be taking the game on so it's a good mistake, If we keep our run up well run away with this one by 3/4 time.

P.S - don't we miss Addison in the back line, Garlet and Betts look dangerous when the ball is around.

[comrade]

We have made some shocking errors in defense. Are we really playing ok or is Carlton really falling off the pace with so many out?

On a positive though, Williams could definitely be the CHF we are graving. In the 2 games so far he has exceeded roughead and Cordy in THAT position.

We seem to be spreading better but Carlton are pretty s***house.

That being said, it will only take Carlton improving by 10% in the 2nd half and we could fold up like a banana lounge.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Grant looks bigger to me.

Look about the same to me but I would rather him learn how to hold the ball correctly and kick than spend time in the gym,

[KT31]

No doesn't look any bigger. Is Playing well and has the ball 11 times.

He is playing well, wouldn't mind him following through with his kicking and not just stabbing at it.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Very good first half from us. It hasn't been a high pressure game but we are using the ball better than Carlton at the moment. Hopefully we don't drop off. Lake down back has been very good great marking. Higgins has been very good up forward and Dahlaus has been electric through the middle.

A better first half from us, against an out of form, and undermanned Cheats outfit, let's not forget. I don't know whether their selection tonight of 3 debutants says more about a lack of available players or a measure of disrepect for us?
Howard has had a bit of it, but still just looks lost out there. Pearce for mine is nowhere near ready for this level of football.

On the plus side, Cordy is moving better this week and has used his body well in the few ruck contests he's had to contend.
Minson is absolutely giving the debutant Casboult a belting in the ruck as he should be. 23 hitouts to 5.
Dahlhaus lively and Boyd and Griffen very good.

[LostDoggy]

Is Grant looking any bigger from his supposed time in the gym?

No
In a side that can't kick a goal not sure how we could have done without him for so long.

[Eastdog]

Minson dominating in the ruck with 23 hit outs.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

We seem to be spreading better but Carlton are pretty s***house.

That being said, it will only take Carlton improving by 10% in the 2nd half and we could fold up like a banana lounge.

Good observation, it's a rarity for us to be beating a team on the spread this year.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Higgins looks like he's blown a hammy...
Terrible blow for us, just as the Cheats are lifting.
Veszpremi looks like another bad recruiting decision to me, lacks composure and for a guy who looks like he has a good kicking action he turns the ball over an awful lot.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Have to give young Howard credit there, nice mark backing back into the pack.
Good work.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Fantastic recovery from Dahlhaus, has it smothered, gets up, regains possession and snaps through for a goal. Good effort by Williams to keep the Carlton guy away from it.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

1/2 way in the 3rd and its game over, can't believe they are going to smash us

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

As Comrade pointed out could occur, Carlton have upped their effort by a significant percentage and starting to get well on top now.

[LostDoggy]

We are going to lose this.
They made a few moves and we have no counter.
Ratten out coaching McCartney!

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I know Carlton have a man behind the ball, but surely playing a chip chip style game just plays into Carlton's hands? Surely we need to beat the spare many by quick movement through the zone, cause you sure as hell ain't going to beat it going laterally and then backward until we turn it over????

[GVGjr]

We are going to lose this.
They made a few moves and we have no counter.
Ratten out coaching McCartney!
You can always turn the tele off :)
Williams misses one :mad:

[KT31]

1/2 way in the 3rd and its game over, can't believe they are going to smash us

Yeh have little faith.
Not saying we will win, but don't think we will give up so easily.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Finally we get the benefit of an umpire decision. 50 metre penalty on the siren for Tutt to slot one after the bell and give us back the lead.

[comrade]

Long lead from Tutty gets a reward.

I reckon we're 40% chance right now.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Long lead from Tutty gets a reward.

I reckon we're 40% chance right now.

Well you're 1 for 1 for your % picks tonight, with your call on Carlton only being a 20% lift away from getting on top!

[LostDoggy]

I know Carlton have a man behind the ball, but surely playing a chip chip style game just plays into Carlton's hands? Surely we need to beat the spare many by quick movement through the zone, cause you sure as hell ain't going to beat it going laterally and then backward until we turn it over????

Spot on.
Its our game plan but kicking is so poor we can't maintain possession.

With our ruck dominating we should well in front.

[LostDoggy]

Apparently if you over grip, it can effect your ball drop.
I thought you get hairy palms?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Howard might just as well be a witches hat in defense. He has no idea.

[KT31]

If we have been working on our defence how can Howard be so unaccountable in our back line ?

[KT31]

2 up none down !

[KT31]

Callan got in the way as a footballer and now as a runner.

[KT31]

Root around for ten minutes and Carlton one entry and a goal.

[comrade]

We're starting to drop off.

Carlton are clearing from defence way too easily. No structure.

[LostDoggy]

All over. 3 goals difference. We are crap

[comrade]

Murph has had his pants pulled down in the last quarter.

[LostDoggy]

Really mystified as to why Murphy is on Betts. Murphy has had a very ordinary couple of months.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

11 of the last 15 goals to the Cheats. Once Carlton were able to adjust their gameplan in response to ours we've had no sustained answer.

A very poor response by our players and by the look of it, our coaching team. We just don't seem to have made any adjustments tactically in response to Carlton.
Minson's advantage has been nullified by the fact our midfielders have not been able to win enough of the contests. With the dominance we've had at the ruck contests, I can't believe we haven't been able to power ahead

[comrade]

Ridiculous tactics. Kick long to a contest, no one on the ground, give back the ball on the wing.

Only GWS and maybe Gold Coast would have lost this tonight.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I can't believe how often our guys will go to Dahlhaus in a one on one marking contest. Unless he is being marked by Tattoo from Fantasy Island he is no chance over head.

[KT31]

Last five minutes Dogs have gone down the line.
Only way to win was to take the game on and go down the guts.

[KT31]

Lost by three and we should have smashed them.:mad::mad::mad:
What exactly is our game plan ???

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

No Judd, No rucks, no Robinson, No Walker, 3 debutants and we still couldn't win.
How woeful are we at the moment?

[Bumper Bulldogs]

We're starting to drop off.

Carlton are clearing from defence way too easily. No structure.

One would think that one of our coaches would have thought to put a tag on Garlett coming off half back

[LostDoggy]

Shades of Peter Rhodes.....I'm over these hack coaches...Smorgan sack him and get us a real coach...let's see Malthouse anyone.

[comrade]

Horrible second half.

No response from the box. I've given up on expecting any moves this year in lieu of education, but I'd like to see some evidence that next year we'll see the coaching staff taking an active position when the game starts to turn against us.

[ReLoad]

Apart from Dahl, we have ZERO pace.

That was unquestionably one of the worst games of football I've ever seen, both teams are amazingly lame, at least Carlton have an excuse, they were fielding their reserves.

We had plenty of opportunities and we blew them all.

I know our results of 1996 were just as poor in terms of win/loss but there was a great bunch of kids that you could tell that it was going to happen. This lot look like traffic cones thrown in the yarra.

Why is our forward line so totally inept? they are the worst in the AFL by a long way.

Not Happy Jan.

[LostDoggy]

Nothing short of and absolute disgrace. We are nearly at full strength and got beaten by a Carlton 3rd side. McCartney, you my frien are a dud!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Horrible second half.

No response from the box. I've given up on expecting any moves this year in lieu of education, but I'd like to see some evidence that next year we'll see the coaching staff taking an active position when the game starts to turn against us.

Spot on I can't believe that we didn't man up the extra they had in the backline. Coming off the HBF they are so dangerous, we off the half our HBF just turned it over and over.

Really starting to get concerned about the coaching team as they look way out of their league in the AFL.

[comrade]

Good result in the Port v Melbourne game.

[LostDoggy]

We are lame, lethargic, error ridden. All year I have heard from Messrs Grant, Harley and the media that McCartney is the man..............forget Melbourne, we are the joke of the comp

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Good result in the Port v Melbourne game.

Not sure about that, the way we are looking it is just going to add to our disappointment down the track.

Oh I forgot I follow the dogs and should be use o disappointments by now!

[LostDoggy]

To the wisdom of Mr Smorgon who criticised Rocket for not developing our younger players.....They have gone backwards even further! and they have taken the likes of Griffen, Murphy and Higgins with them!!

[bornadog]

The trouble is we have to many players not up to it.

Vev DJ Gilbee should never be in this side again. Gia is gone, Cordy's role needs to be reassessed at Willi.

[LostDoggy]

Bornadog, I saw a lot of players in our side tonight that are not up to it!! Players that we recruited offseason and elite......... are now also rans.

[bornadog]

Bornadog, I saw a lot of players in our side tonight that are not up to it!! Players that we recruited offseason and elite......... are now also rans.

It they are players under 20 games I don't agree. Name them

[LostDoggy]

I liked DJs efforts....Good to see Tutt up and about...Mmm, no. Season's been a write off for a while, plenty of other sport around to tide me over the next few months.

[LostDoggy]

I feel nothing but PAIN!!!!

[bulldogsman]

This is the most disappointed I have been all season.

Against that side, I don't know how we lost that.

Apart from Dahlhaus, no one looked likely to kick a goal in that 2nd half.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

The trouble is we have to many players not up to it.

Vev DJ Gilbee should never be in this side again. Gia is gone, Cordy's role needs to be reassessed at Willi.

Oh Bornadog, we have a group of fine young men that we are teaching and this will take time. We need to be patent and educate them. Bla Bla Bla

Have your heard this before, when are we going to start and look at the coach and his team, we had this game in the bag and only lost it due to the fact that the coach has little idea.

I'm sure that BMAc and amigo are writing the next piece of crap they want to put out to the members, well if tis keeps up they will not have any memebers!

[Mantis]

This is the most disappointed I have been all season.

Lower your expectations.... We are bottom feeders.

[LostDoggy]

Bornadog, apart from the Dollhouse, Wallace, Libba, Lake and Boyd...............The rest are duds, not up to it, or have past it. That includes the coaching staff. Lets have a look at the power clubs. Recruit and expect nothing less than success from personnel who walks through their doors.

[bulldogsman]

Lower your expectations.... We are bottom feeders.

I thought my expectations were already low, I predicted we would be a bottom 4 side at the start of the season. I just can't believe we lost to that team Carlton fielded tonight. My expectations have just hit rock bottom.

[w3design]

Howard might just as well be a witches hat in defense. He has no idea.

Agree can't play at all.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Agree can't play at all.

Don't get me wrong but I thought he was much better than the last couple of weeks.i thought he started on the wing and that was better or him. He seems to get lost in the bak line and become to worried about finding body contact and he ends up getting pushed aside.

[Hotdog60]

I wonder if Howard would be better on the HFF rather than the back line. Let him make the play and use his foot skills. Maybe he is more a early Murphy rather than a Gilbee.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I think the match committee erred in leaving out Shaggy tonight, how Pearce was seen as somehow a better option in a match we really should've been going out to win, given it was in all probability our last shot to get a win for the remainder of the year.

I'm not willing to knock the kid at such an early stage in his development but he doesn't look close to being ready for AFL level at the moment.

ACtually good to hear McCartney acknowledge in the post game interview on TV that our young midfielders need to learn how to read the outside play better from ruck contests - in response to the question as to why we were not able to leverage the total dominance from Minson's ruckwork.
I was dreading that he might instead talk about ' the need for them to win the contested ball and crack in. Hopefully this means that he is aware of the need to instruct our midfielders in how to play outside of the contest.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Don't get me wrong but I thought he was much better than the last couple of weeks.i thought he started on the wing and that was better or him. He seems to get lost in the bak line and become to worried about finding body contact and he ends up getting pushed aside.

If he is going to make it, it is definitely going to have to be in a role other than defense that is for sure. However when he was forward tonight he still looked unable to size up the right option and looked dreadfully unaware and slow to react to pressure in one particular contest where he was run down with ball in hand.

As an aside how many times tonight did we handball to the stationary man, repeatedly in the same passage of play. Invariably this would lead to each successive player receiving the ball being under slightly more pressure than the last, culminating in a turnover.

[Desipura]

The trouble is we have to many players not up to it.

Vev DJ Gilbee should never be in this side again. Gia is gone, Cordy's role needs to be reassessed at Willi.

This is plainly obvious to see yet the MC continues to play them. What is Cordy learning standing stationary in the forward line?
I hate watching us play, we are so boring. Dahl can turn it on and Griff after that the cupboard is bare.

Our lack of pace means all our midfielders want to do is handball out of congestion, only to place a teammate under pressure.
No one is willing to break a tackle and take the game on, that's way you need A graders in your side.
They have that ability to make something out of nothing.
Our skills are deplorable, experienced players like Murphy and Minson turning it over with no real pressure is not good enough.

[GVGjr]

The trouble is we have to many players not up to it.

Vev DJ Gilbee should never be in this side again. Gia is gone, Cordy's role needs to be reassessed at Willi.

McCartney is falling into the same trap at the selection as Eade did over his last two seasons. I believe we had the cattle to win tonight but we aren't selecting the right players.
Hargrave was an absolute requirement tonight as was Jones.

The positives for me tonight were:
- Williams as a forward is working
- Minson is having a great season
- Wallis has emerged
- Howard rebounded from a poor game and was much better this week

[azabob]

This is plainly obvious to see yet the MC continues to play them. What is Cordy learning standing stationary in the forward line?
I hate watching us play, we are so boring. Dahl can turn it on and Griff after that the cupboard is bare.

Our lack of pace means all our midfielders want to do is handball out of congestion, only to place a teammate under pressure.
No one is willing to break a tackle and take the game on, that's way you need A graders in your side.
They have that ability to make something out of nothing.
Our skills are deplorable, experienced players like Murphy and Minson turning it over with no real pressure is not good enough.

Agree with most of what you have said, Griffen's lack of goal kicking is really frustrating the one he missed from 50 in the third was very poor.

Murphy's disposal this season had been woeful.

[bornadog]

This is plainly obvious to see yet the MC continues to play them. What is Cordy learning standing stationary in the forward line?
I hate watching us play, we are so boring. Dahl can turn it on and Griff after that the cupboard is bare.

Our lack of pace means all our midfielders want to do is handball out of congestion, only to place a teammate under pressure.
No one is willing to break a tackle and take the game on, that's way you need A graders in your side.
They have that ability to make something out of nothing.
Our skills are deplorable, experienced players like Murphy and Minson turning it over with no real pressure is not good enough.

I do agree with you but guys like DJ, Vez are not up to this standard at all. In the third quarter two goals in two minutes were due to Vez poor turnovers. DJ tries his guts out and we all wish he would succeed as we need his pace and endeavour, but he is plainly punching out of his league.
Gilbee has played one good game in three years and he was a forward that day. Gia well, I have been a big supporter, but maybe father time has caught up.

As for the rest, they are mainly kids and yes they are learning. I thought Howard was good tonight, but haven't read any praise for him.

Edit - GVGjr has given Howard some positive remarks

[The Pie Man]

Tis a weird dark place to be happier we got run over in a game we had in our keeping. Weird, dark place

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

McCartney is falling into the same trap at the selection as Eade did over his last two seasons. I believe we had the cattle to win tonight but we aren't selecting the right players.
Hargrave was an absolute requirement tonight as was Jones.

The positives for me tonight were:
- Williams as a forward is working
- Minson is having a great season
- Wallis has emerged
- Howard rebounded from a poor game and was much better this week

Mostly agree Gary. Having Hargrave tonight would've provided much needed cover, which would've allowed Murphy to be more attacking, and it would've forced Carlton to think a bit more about how defensively accountable guys like Garlett or Betts needed to be, as Shaggy would've also provided another rebounding option if not attended to.

Williams in back to back weeks has shown he can play a role for us in the forward half.
Whilst I'm pleased at how much ball Wallis can find, I think he is still some way from 'emerging'. He needs to learn - and hopefully it will come with more experience- how to use the ball to our advantage. At the moment he takes the easiest option rather than the best option when distributing the ball. I think Libba is ahead of him in this regard.

Howard, whilst better than last week - it was an extremely low base he was coming off - was still subpar. He just doesn't seem to have any one stand out skill, and indeed when asked to play behind the ball he looks totally lost, and it only seems to highlight his deficiencies. I think he would be better suited forward of the play.

[Eastdog]

Very disappointing we let that one get away tonight. Considering the team Carlton had in tonight and with us leading for most of the match we really should of won. We will most likely not win another match for the season. Our list: we have some exciting young players coming up but they will take time to become good, but we have a lot of older players who are coming towards the end of their careers. We don't have those 23/24 years olds firing players in that side if you know what I mean.

[Desipura]

I do agree with you but guys like DJ, Vez are not up to this standard at all. In the third quarter two goals in two minutes were due to Vez poor turnovers. DJ tries his guts out and we all wish he would succeed as we need his pace and endeavour, but he is plainly punching out of his league.
Gilbee has played one good game in three years and he was a forward that day. Gia well, I have been a big supporter, but maybe father time has caught up.

As for the rest, they are mainly kids and yes they are learning. I thought Howard was good tonight, but haven't read any praise for him.

Edit - GVGjr has given Howard some positive remarks

I'm agreeing with you about the above not being up to AFL standard, as well as Gia and Gilbee being finished (Gilbee time was up a few seasons back)

[jazzadogs]

ACtually good to hear McCartney acknowledge in the post game interview on TV that our young midfielders need to learn how to read the outside play better from ruck contests - in response to the question as to why we were not able to leverage the total dominance from Minson's ruckwork.
I was dreading that he might instead talk about ' the need for them to win the contested ball and crack in. Hopefully this means that he is aware of the need to instruct our midfielders in how to play outside of the contest.

Of course he would be aware that we need to develop our outside game as well. I'm a bit over the criticism of Macca's coaching. People talk about him like as though he has absolutely no idea...of course he has an idea. There is no instant fix for our football club. He's trying to develop our side, and at the moment our side just isn't up to it. This is where our list is at. We were able to compete with the Blues while they weren't playing great football. Once they turned it up a bit, they got on top of us.

We are currently a developing football side, which is going to lead to depressing losses such as tonight. As much as our team is developing, so too is our coaching staff and I feel we need to give them a bit of allowance for their inexperience. In much the same way as Sockeye's 20-game-rule for players, Macca (and the assistants) are going to take time to settle into their roles. We took this risk when we appointed a first year coach. I would hope that the club continues to back him in, as it has so far.

I understand that this was a disappointing loss, for me it was the most disappointing loss of the year, but I don't think the blame can be laid solely at Macca's feet. He doesn't have much to work with just yet. (I understand you're not blaming Macca YHF, just the general feel I'm getting).

[Maddog37]

Tis a weird dark place to be happier we got run over in a game we had in our keeping. Weird, dark place



I agree. More than ever before I am questioning the relevance of the game I once loved.

Tanking for sure. Beautifully disguised but tanking no doubt.

[KT31]

I agree. More than ever before I am questioning the relevance of the game I once loved.

Tanking for sure. Beautifully disguised but tanking no doubt.

Not tanking, just a poor team.

[Eastdog]

Of course he would be aware that we need to develop our outside game as well. I'm a bit over the criticism of Macca's coaching. People talk about him like as though he has absolutely no idea...of course he has an idea. There is no instant fix for our football club. He's trying to develop our side, and at the moment our side just isn't up to it. This is where our list is at. We were able to compete with the Blues while they weren't playing great football. Once they turned it up a bit, they got on top of us.

We are currently a developing football side, which is going to lead to depressing losses such as tonight. As much as our team is developing, so too is our coaching staff and I feel we need to give them a bit of allowance for their inexperience. In much the same way as Sockeye's 20-game-rule for players, Macca (and the assistants) are going to take time to settle into their roles. We took this risk when we appointed a first year coach. I would hope that the club continues to back him in, as it has so far.

I understand that this was a disappointing loss, for me it was the most disappointing loss of the year, but I don't think the blame can be laid solely at Macca's feet. He doesn't have much to work with just yet. (I understand you're not blaming Macca YHF, just the general feel I'm getting).

Very good post. We can't judge Macca in his first year as coach as he has to get used to the new role as he hasn't coached an AFL side before and the fact he doesn't have that much to work with right now.

[Maddog37]

Not tanking, just a poor team.

You say potato.........

[G-Mo77]

I think this is the first time I have been angry after losing this season. I really spat the dummy tonight. :o

Still a little grumpy so the sixer I left in the fridge will help me sleep a little. Just skimming through the last page I notice that no one mentioned Jarrad Grant's game tonight. I thought he was really good in his first game back. Some really good forward pressure, I think he ran down Yarran at one stage as well.

I don't think Minson lost a ruck contest tonight but we still struggled at the stopages especially in the second half.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

That was pretty much the last straw for me.

[GVGjr]

I think this is the first time I have been angry after losing this season. I really spat the dummy tonight. :o

Still a little grumpy so the sixer I left in the fridge will help me sleep a little. Just skimming through the last page I notice that no one mentioned Jarrad Grant's game tonight. I thought he was really good in his first game back. Some really good forward pressure, I think he ran down Yarran at one stage as well.


Whilst Grant had a couple of good patches he's still a way off playing to his ability. We have to stick with him though.

[AndrewP6]

In much the same way as Sockeye's 20-game-rule for players, Macca (and the assistants) are going to take time to settle into their roles. We took this risk when we appointed a first year coach. I would hope that the club continues to back him in, as it has so far.


"We" weren't all in favour of it, and for mine, nothing has happened to change that view.

[Mantis]

Of course he would be aware that we need to develop our outside game as well. I'm a bit over the criticism of Macca's coaching. People talk about him like as though he has absolutely no idea...of course he has an idea. There is no instant fix for our football club. He's trying to develop our side, and at the moment our side just isn't up to it. This is where our list is at. We were able to compete with the Blues while they weren't playing great football. Once they turned it up a bit, they got on top of us.

They were playing footy akin to a bottom 4 team so why should we get excited by this?


We are currently a developing football side, which is going to lead to depressing losses such as tonight. As much as our team is developing, so too is our coaching staff and I feel we need to give them a bit of allowance for their inexperience. In much the same way as Sockeye's 20-game-rule for players, Macca (and the assistants) are going to take time to settle into their roles. We took this risk when we appointed a first year coach. I would hope that the club continues to back him in, as it has so far.

The problem is we aren't progressing which is why we are all a little touchy.


I understand that this was a disappointing loss, for me it was the most disappointing loss of the year, but I don't think the blame can be laid solely at Macca's feet. He doesn't have much to work with just yet. (I understand you're not blaming Macca YHF, just the general feel I'm getting).

So who do we blame? Someone is responsible for the crap footy we are playing and the terrible state our list is in... Give me some answers.

[AndrewP6]

I've gotta say, I'm not as devastated as many others (and perhaps as I should be). I picked a 2 goal loss, and wasn't far off the mark unfortunately. I am disappointed we let another game slip, but I'm strangely resigned to this happening. We're almost completely devoid of A-graders, and players who will/can stand up and deliver when we most need it. Coaching moves/selections are continually baffling, but hey, they're cracking in and getting an education, and they're good people, right? :rolleyes:

On the game: Really disappointed for Higgins, thought he's shown a bit at times this year and was doing well tonight. Tom W. looks good in the F50, and Lakey continues his good form. Despite the Gilbee critics, I reckon he's done some good things since coming back in, and the kids do need a few experienced heads around.

[G-Mo77]

Whilst Grant had a couple of good patches he's still a way off playing to his ability. We have to stick with him though.

It's a lot better than what we have been seeing so it's a step in the right path especially after 4 - 5 weeks away from AFL. I think it was one of his better games since coming to the club.

[Sedat]

I liked DJs efforts
What in particular did you like? His fumbles, his missed tackles, the absolute ease with which the opposition sell candy to him, his inability to find the footy?

[Mantis]

What in particular did you like? His fumbles, his missed tackles, the absolute ease with which the opposition sell candy to him, his inability to find the footy?

E/ All of the above.

He's a keeper. :eek:

[GVGjr]

So who do we blame? Someone is responsible for the crap footy we are playing and the terrible state our list is in... Give me some answers.

I get where you are coming from but we were pretty bad last year and I never read the same level of frustration from you as you are now sharing.
The signs were all there last year mind you but we were all kidding ourselves if we thought a new coach was going to get us back on track in one season. He inherited a train wreck and was never going to fix it in one season.

Eade took a number of short term fixes and given 3 top four finishes it had some merit but the last two seasons I think we over achieved but not in a good way for the longer term.

[jazzadogs]

"We" weren't all in favour of it, and for mine, nothing has happened to change that view.

Yep, understand that and therefore understand the frustration. But I personally don't think this year would have looked too much different with anyone else at the helm. The next few years are the test.


They were playing footy akin to a bottom 4 team so why should we get excited by this?

The problem is we aren't progressing which is why we are all a little touchy.

So who do we blame? Someone is responsible for the crap footy we are playing and the terrible state our list is in... Give me some answers.

We are a bottom 4 team, nothing to be excited about but something to be realistic about.

I think 17 games is a bit early to be expecting significant improvements. Last year was just the start of a downhill slope (the J curve, Ghost Dog was calling it), and Hall saved us from looking worse than we were. This year there is more responsibility being placed on our young talls, who are still not up to it. Skill level and speed are not things that Macca can change, they are list management decisions which he will (hopefully) make at year's end.

As far as the terrible state our list is in, I can't see any way that Macca is to blame for that. If the list is still in bad shape in 2-3 years, I'll be right behind you in the line to criticise him.

Re: our brand of footy, I think that it comes down to our list and the fact that we don't have speed or skill. With the way the current game is played, you can only do so much with a slow unskilled outfit, exacerbated by our youth. Macca is working on the factors he can work on...contested ball, developing decision making and trying to effectively manage the high number of young talls on our list.

Is he flawless? No, of course not. He is 17 games into his coaching career. But I'm content with job he is doing.

[AndrewP6]

Maybe I'm a bit slow off the mark, but has Tim Callan been our runner all year? I thought I noticed him last week, and again tonight. Confirmed on the replay on Fox.

[G-Mo77]

Maybe I'm a bit slow off the mark, but has Tim Callan been our runner all year? I thought I noticed him last week, and again tonight. Confirmed on the replay on Fox.

I'm pretty sure he has. I sat near the Bulldogs entrance at the North game and remember seeing him in the runner's uniform.

[Sedat]

I get where you are coming from but we were pretty bad last year and I never read the same level of frustration from you as you are now sharing.
The signs were all there last year mind you but we were all kidding ourselves if we thought a new coach was going to get us back on track in one season. He inherited a train wreck and was never going to fix it in one season.

Eade took a number of short term fixes and given 3 top four finishes it had some merit but the last two seasons I think we over achieved but not in a good way for the longer term.
We struggled last season but we didn't raise the white flag like we've done with monotonous regularity this season. I remember games last year, like the West Coke game at Etihad, where we were garbage early but fought out games to the death. We still tried to take the game on last season. By contrast this season we take the safe option, we move the ball at glacier speed, we hit the boundary - we are far uglier to watch this season compared to last. That is why we get 24k to a home game against Carlton on a beautiful night for football.

[GVGjr]

We struggled last season but we didn't raise the white flag like we've done with monotonous regularity this season. I remember games last year, like the West Coke game at Etihad, where we were garbage early but fought out games to the death. We still tried to take the game on last season. By contrast this season we take the safe option, we move the ball at glacier speed, we hit the boundary - we are far uglier to watch this season compared to last. That is why we get 24k to a home game against Carlton on a beautiful night for football.


But we were sliding back at an alarming rate and basically held up by the likes of Barry Hall. We are paying for the short term decisions over the last 3 years. Keeping Eagleton and Hahn on well part their use-by dates. Keeping Akermanis on one season too many. Trading for Sherman wasn't a good decision then and certainly isn't now. Promoting Mulligan and Hooper who weren't ready and alienating some youngsters and not tying up some other talented youngsters with contracts at the appropriate time are all contributing to where we are now.

We can continue to point the finger at McCartney and Fantasia but I reckon Eade is being made up to be more of a messiah than he really was. He isn't being blamed even in part for leaving us with a flat footed playing list and some significant gaps in recent draft crops.

[SonofScray]

But we were sliding back at an alarming rate and basically held up by the likes of Barry Hall. We are paying for the short term decisions over the last 3 years. Keeping Eagleton and Hahn on well part their use-by dates. Keeping Akermanis on one season too many. Trading for Sherman wasn't a good decision then and certainly isn't now. Promoting Mulligan and Hooper who weren't ready and alienating some youngsters and not tying up some other talented youngsters with contracts at the appropriate time are all contributing to where we are now.

We can continue to point the finger at McCartney and Fantasia but I reckon Eade is being made up to be more of a messiah than he really was. He isn't being blamed even in part for leaving us with a flat footed playing list and some significant gaps in recent draft crops.

The rebuild and faith that everyone seems to have in the draft picks etc that accompany a crap season, they seem to be nullified by some of the thing you've highlighted. We've already fluffed some of the work that goes into a rebuild.

We'll get picks 5 and 6, which could easily be another Walsh. Or two! I have no faith in the concept of success in footy being cyclical and even if it is, the hamster wheel we are currently on is pointed towards shit creek.

When we do, if we do, get up and about again, no doubt we'll rue the selections of Sherman and DJ. They are this cycle's Baird and Basset.

[craigsahibee]

Not tanking, just a poor team.

Agree. I don't think we are good enough to tank!

[bornadog]

But we were sliding back at an alarming rate and basically held up by the likes of Barry Hall. We are paying for the short term decisions over the last 3 years. Keeping Eagleton and Hahn on well part their use-by dates. Keeping Akermanis on one season too many. Trading for Sherman wasn't a good decision then and certainly isn't now. Promoting Mulligan and Hooper who weren't ready and alienating some youngsters and not tying up some other talented youngsters with contracts at the appropriate time are all contributing to where we are now.

We can continue to point the finger at McCartney and Fantasia but I reckon Eade is being made up to be more of a messiah than he really was. He isn't being blamed even in part for leaving us with a flat footed playing list and some significant gaps in recent draft crops.

I don't think anyone is painting Eade as more of a messiah than he really was . Losing Harbrow and Ward has really cost us dearly which would have made a difference to your above statement. Yes we held on to some players longer than we should have (inhindsight), but you know what, it was worth it to go for the chance at a flag. Our biggest errors have been to take Geelong and Sydney discards that are just not up to it and we are continuing to play them. What we should have done is cut deeper at the end of 2011, which would help us in the years beyond 2012.

Surely you must agree that Macca has been making some strange selection criteria. Playing so many rucks in the one team, sticking an all Australian HBF in Murphy into a negating role week after week, which just doesn't work, dropping Grant for 4 weeks and he doesn't even play at VFL level, trying to make guys into in and under types when they clearly cannot play that role, not making any moves during a match, like Markovic on Pav and he kicks 6 goals. There are many more strange selections, like Gilbee in and Hargrave out?

I am still scratching my head, as its all a very big mystery.

[Eastdog]

I don't think anyone is painting Eade as more of a messiah than he really was . Losing Harbrow and Ward has really cost us dearly which would have made a difference to your above statement. Yes we held on to some players longer than we should have (inhindsight), but you know what, it was worth it to go for the chance at a flag. Our biggest errors have been to take Geelong and Sydney discards that are just not up to it and we are continuing to play them. What we should have done is cut deeper at the end of 2011, which would help us in the years beyond 2012.

Surely you must agree that Macca has been making some strange selection criteria. Playing so many rucks in the one team, sticking an all Australian HBF in Murphy into a negating role week after week, which just doesn't work, dropping Grant for 4 weeks and he doesn't even play at VFL level, trying to make guys into in and under types when they clearly cannot play that role, not making any moves during a match, like Markovic on Pav and he kicks 6 goals. There are many more strange selections, like Gilbee in and Hargrave out?

I am still scratching my head, as its all a very big mystery.

Thinking about Harbrow and Ward were important players in our team and now I wish they were still in the team today. They left and thats that.

[LostDoggy]

I think we would have struggled this year regardless of who we had at the helm. The problem as I see it, is the list is just too unbalanced and lacking class and experience in the areas it is needed most. Smacking the coach for not producing instant success isn't fair in my view. But, as a member I want some signs that things will eventually improve.

[AndrewP6]

Don't want to stir the pot, but a girl I work with has just checked in on Facebook at CQ Nightclub, with Tory Dickson (yes, she does actually know him!)...on the turps whilst injured??? Tsk Tsk... naughty boy.

[Remi Moses]

I think we would have struggled this year regardless of who we had at the helm. The problem as I see it, is the list is just too unbalanced and lacking class and experience in the areas it is needed most. Smacking the coach for not producing instant success isn't fair in my view. But, as a member I want some signs that things will eventually improve.

Agree with this. The recycled types have let's be honest had a minimal impact .
DJ not up to it ( would the cats trade him, if he was?)
Sherman ( very ordinary in an ordinary team)
Austin ( been okay but no world beater)
Vezspremi ( has no tank) personally don't reckon he'll get there
I just hope we use the draft exclusively and don't trade for fringe players and just bring in our own.The list is so lopsided it's Rediculous, Clayton has to wear some blame as does Rocket for his bringing in fringe stop gap players

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Not tanking, just a poor team.

I wasn't saying this in the first half, but during the second half with the lack of coaching tactics and moves I fail to see any other reason to explain the lost tonight.

[Mantis]

I get where you are coming from but we were pretty bad last year and I never read the same level of frustration from you as you are now sharing.

We have been consistently bad over the last 6 or 8 weeks and the level of frustration has been building... At least last year we played some reasonable footy, the last 2 months has been horrible.


The signs were all there last year mind you but we were all kidding ourselves if we thought a new coach was going to get us back on track in one season. He inherited a train wreck and was never going to fix it in one season.

Agree that it was going to take time, but we are getting worse....

[Maddog37]

Don't want to stir the pot, but a girl I work with has just checked in on Facebook at CQ Nightclub, with Tory Dickson (yes, she does actually know him!)...on the turps whilst injured??? Tsk Tsk... naughty boy.

Doesn't necessarily mean he is drinking.

[Mantis]

We are a bottom 4 team, nothing to be excited about but something to be realistic about.

I think 17 games is a bit early to be expecting significant improvements. Last year was just the start of a downhill slope (the J curve, Ghost Dog was calling it), and Hall saved us from looking worse than we were. This year there is more responsibility being placed on our young talls, who are still not up to it. Skill level and speed are not things that Macca can change, they are list management decisions which he will (hopefully) make at year's end.

I'm not expecting significant improvement... I just want some improvement.... And I'm not seeing any.


As far as the terrible state our list is in, I can't see any way that Macca is to blame for that. If the list is still in bad shape in 2-3 years, I'll be right behind you in the line to criticise him.

I'm not saying Macca is responsible... but someone is and he/ they need to be held accountable... Perhaps Eade was responsible and he paid the price, but surely others have had a hand at creating what we have now.


Re: our brand of footy, I think that it comes down to our list and the fact that we don't have speed or skill. With the way the current game is played, you can only do so much with a slow unskilled outfit, exacerbated by our youth. Macca is working on the factors he can work on...contested ball, developing decision making and trying to effectively manage the high number of young talls on our list.

How is that going for him?... We were ok at contested footy early on, but it's dropped away alarmingly.

Our decision making is safety first which makes for boring viewing.

All of our young talls have stagnated or gone backwards... Maybe we will see the benefits of his actions in years to come, but at the moment I'm disheartened by the lack of development these players have made.


Is he flawless? No, of course not. He is 17 games into his coaching career. But I'm content with job he is doing.

That's fine.... but I'm very disappointed with our last 6 weeks... which looks like rolling on into the next 6.

[GVGjr]

Surely you must agree that Macca has been making some strange selection criteria. Playing so many rucks in the one team, sticking an all Australian HBF in Murphy into a negating role week after week, which just doesn't work, dropping Grant for 4 weeks and he doesn't even play at VFL level, trying to make guys into in and under types when they clearly cannot play that role, not making any moves during a match, like Markovic on Pav and he kicks 6 goals. There are many more strange selections, like Gilbee in and Hargrave out?

I am still scratching my head, as its all a very big mystery.

He certainly is but no more than Eade did but of course Eade never received the same level of focus than McCartney is now receiving.

McCartney didn't build this list and has inherited a substantially worse playing list that Eade did in his first season.

As supporters we should be annoyed with the way we are playing and at some of the errors at the selection table but then again we should have been annoyed last year and probably should have been aware of what was going on the year before that.

[LostDoggy]

The fact is we got rid of a good coach for a crap one.

[Mantis]

But we were sliding back at an alarming rate and basically held up by the likes of Barry Hall. We are paying for the short term decisions over the last 3 years. Keeping Eagleton and Hahn on well part their use-by dates. Keeping Akermanis on one season too many. Trading for Sherman wasn't a good decision then and certainly isn't now. Promoting Mulligan and Hooper who weren't ready and alienating some youngsters and not tying up some other talented youngsters with contracts at the appropriate time are all contributing to where we are now.

Agree with some of that, but which youngsters were/ have been alienated?

And even if we were to tip out some or all of the players mentioned I can't see how you could have any faith that we would have recruited the type of players to improve our list going on our recent drafting efforts.


We can continue to point the finger at McCartney and Fantasia but I reckon Eade is being made up to be more of a messiah than he really was. He isn't being blamed even in part for leaving us with a flat footed playing list and some significant gaps in recent draft crops.

So the former coach should be held accountable for this? I thought drafting is the responsibilty of our recruiting staff?

[ReLoad]

In reality, even if we played Shaggy, how is that going to help our long term future? Shaggy is spent a as footballer, so why not put more games into a kid like Pearce.

What we are lacking is something which has helped us through the dark times in the past, that is a fully fledged superstar. When things were going poorly in the 90's we had Turtle. in the 00's we had Johnno.
Who the hell have we got now? nobody. no inspirational young kid who you can tell will be a superstar. nobody to be the face of the team, nobody who each kid wants to put his number on the back of his footy jumper.

Our Salary cap should be at it lowest ebb at the end of next year (when certain contracts run out, cooney, gia, higgins etc) who are on money way above the odds. We need to go shopping and spend some massive coin. Lets go for a Patton or Cameron from GWS for example, we need to build a side around a superstar, and heaven knows we don't have one on our list.

Right now, Macca has inherited a bunch of turnips and no matter what he did last night even if we won were still a rubbish list.

Howard is a spud, he's another Higgins in the making, he has no special "trick" I.e a killer kick, or a sidestep, or anything of that nature. There was a great post comparing him to Gilbee at the same stage in his career, where his stats stack up, the difference is, that we could see the kick that Gilbee had on him, whereas Howard is an old mother hubbard in the tricks department.

Anyway there is a lot to be said about our current on field situation, but personally I think the coach is not to blame, he needs time. - His assistants on the other hand, that's a different matter.

[KT31]

ACtually good to hear McCartney acknowledge in the post game interview on TV that our young midfielders need to learn how to read the outside play better from ruck contests - in response to the question as to why we were not able to leverage the total dominance from Minson's ruckwork.
.

Did he acknowledge our coaching staff need to learn a fair bit as well ?
Himself included.

[GVGjr]

Agree with some of that, but which youngsters were/ have been alienated?

And even if we were to tip out some or all of the players mentioned I can't see how you could have any faith that we would have recruited the type of players to improve our list going on our recent drafting efforts.

So the former coach should be held accountable for this? I thought drafting is the responsibilty of our recruiting staff?

Everitt, Hill and Ward (and from the older group Lake) all had issues with a coach that didn't really modify his approach to the person. At the same time, he ignored the negative influence of Sam Reid and talked up the erratic Schofield.


The former coach isn't being held to account not in the slightest but now it's open season on the current. I don't get why Eade isn't receiving at least a mention because it's essentially his list.



So the former coach should be held accountable for this? I thought drafting is the responsibilty of our recruiting staff?

Does the former coach have no involvement for the Mulligan and Hooper promotions, playing Hahn one season to many on the senior list and then another season as a senior rookie? Do we just ignore the ongoing selection and retention of Eagleton?

I'm sure all of these decisions were seen as the right thing at the time but it's largely the reason why we are where we are. We can keep putting the blame on McCartney and highlight some of the errors he has made but we ignored all the warning signs over the last three seasons.

[GVGjr]

The fact is we got rid of a good coach for a crap one.

And there it is. Vintage Chops.

[KT31]

Very good post. We can't judge Macca in his first year as coach as he has to get used to the new role as he hasn't coached an AFL side before and the fact he doesn't have that much to work with right now.

Did he or did he not do an apprenticeship at Geelong ?
He was getting more out of the players in the first half of the season, this would suggest something is a-rye.
Agree it is only his first year as coach, but if a trademan on his first job after his apprenticeship burnt a house down he is still accountable.

[KT31]

I wasn't saying this in the first half, but during the second half with the lack of coaching tactics and moves I fail to see any other reason to explain the lost tonight.

Could be our coaching staff just had nothing in the bag.
This may be our game plan.

If we don't know our tactics then then opposition could never know.;)

[Hotdog60]

Maybe to problem lies in telling the fans we needed a refresh and not a rebuild. It has given a false impression that the list is in good shape and fresh ideas at the top will propel us forward.

If the club had called it as it was (rebuild) and then our expectations would have move to a later time frame.

It's crap at the moment and it maybe a slow process going forward but as supporters we have to hang in there just like most of us have for the last 50 - 40 years.

I was very disappointed with last night but I've been through this so many times before. I'll just hang in there and get ready for the next window to come along and hope I don't die before I can see the cup raised above the captains head in September.

If Macca has a 3 year deal we have to give him a chance to apply his ideas, but at the end of year 2 we should be seeing some good signs or his head may not be so secure.

P.S. I wanted to see Rocket rebuild not refresh, but we have what we have and I'm willing to give the man a chance.

[Mantis]

Everitt, Hill and Ward (and from the older group Lake) all had issues with a coach that didn't really modify his approach to the person. At the same time, he ignored the negative influence of Sam Reid and talked up the erratic Schofield.

Ward? I don't get this one.

Everitt and Hill were given ample opportunities to play the type of footy we wanted, but didn't or couldn't... Both now have the opportunity to play bit part roles in very good teams which suit them down to the ground.

How was Sam Reid a negative influence?

When was Schofield talked up publically?

And I know that the bolded point is crap... you should know better than to make assumptions like this.


The former coach isn't being held to account not in the slightest but now it's open season on the current. I don't get why Eade isn't receiving at least a mention because it's essentially his list.

You're mentioning him so it's a moot point.


Does the former coach have no involvement for the Mulligan and Hooper promotions, playing Hahn one season to many on the senior list and then another season as a senior rookie? Do we just ignore the ongoing selection and retention of Eagleton?

My understanding is that the Mulligan & Hooper promotions had little do with the former coach.... Should he have been.. yes, but perhaps it wasn't his call.

My feelings on Eagleton are well known.

Hahn... yeah whatever.... but the point is that our drafting has been crap so who is to say that our list would be in any better shape if we had cut the fat when we should have.



I'm sure all of these decisions were seen as the right thing at the time but it's largely the reason why we are where we are. We can keep putting the blame on McCartney and highlight some of the errors he has made but we ignored all the warning signs over the last three seasons.

My problem with McCartney has nothing to do with how our list has been built... my problem is with the complete lack of development we have shown this year... I still have no idea what sort of game style we are looking to implement which is disappointing considering we are almost 3/4 of the way through the season.. I hope there is a grand plan, but at present I have no idea what it is... the only thing I know is that we are going to 'crack in'... Awesome. :rolleyes:

[LostDoggy]

And there it is. Vintage Chops.

Thanks so you agree?

[GVGjr]

Ward? I don't get this one.



Eade approach to Ward wasn't always accepted as a positive.



Everitt and Hill were given ample opportunities to play the type of footy we wanted, but didn't or couldn't... Both now have the opportunity to play bit part roles in very good teams which suit them down to the ground.



They were given a lot of opportunities but they needed a different approach from the coach and didn't initially respond well to some sarcasm. That might have worked well on some of the senior guys but not everyone on the list handles it as well.



How was Sam Reid a negative influence?



He led the younger group into some issues but it wasn't identified by the coaches that there was one common link.



And I know that the bolded point is crap... you should know better than to make assumptions like this.[/B]



It's actually you that is assuming that my comments are an assumption.



My understanding is that the Mulligan & Hooper promotions had little do with the former coach.... Should he have been.. yes, but perhaps it wasn't his call.

My feelings on Eagleton are well known.

Hahn... yeah whatever.... but the point is that our drafting has been crap so who is to say that our list would be in any better shape if we had cut the fat when we should have.



Most good coaches don't tow the line of just letting the recruiters do their part and I think it's a failure of both our longer term recent coaches in Eade and Wallace that seem to distance themselves from it.
Sheedy for example was front and centre of all list management and recruiting decisions.

[GVGjr]

Thanks so you agree?

Of course not. Eade was a good coach and was great for the club and I don't question that in any way. It's your comment of McCartney that is at least consistent with your tendency to ignore the reasons why we are playing so poorly.

[LostDoggy]

Most good coaches don't tow the line of just letting the recruiters do their part and I think it's a failure of both our longer term recent coaches in Eade and Wallace that seem to distance themselves from it.
Sheedy for example was front and centre of all list management and recruiting decisions.
I thought after the 2007? coaching review Eade lost a lot of these powers?

[GVGjr]

Maybe to problem lies in telling the fans we needed a refresh and not a rebuild. It has given a false impression that the list is in good shape and fresh ideas at the top will propel us forward.

If the club had called it as it was (rebuild) and then our expectations would have move to a later time frame.

It was a play on words to try and keep the membership numbers. I wish there was a way of telling people exactly how it is and for them not to drop off but a lot of people shut down with the truth especially when it's not what they want to hear.

Rebuild or Refresh doesn't matter in the slightest at the moment.

[LostDoggy]

Of course not. Eade was a good coach and was great for the club and I don't question that in any way. It's your comment of McCartney that is at least consistent with your tendency to ignore the reasons why we are playing so poorly.
Why we are playing poorly?
There are a number of reasons.
Things like a lack of a viable game plan, inability to counter opposition moves/players and little to no development in our players this year.
Who is at fault here for those?

[chef]

Still gutted we lost, we should have won that game and team selection cost us.

With Port winning and still having games against GC and GWS to come, it looks like picks 5 and 6 coming our way.

[LostDoggy]

It was a play on words to try and keep the membership numbers. I wish there was a way of telling people exactly how it is and for them not to drop off but a lot of people shut down with the truth especially when it's not what they want to hear.
Rebuild or Refresh doesn't matter in the slightest at the moment.

Yes that really worked well. If that's the case its straight out BS to your members and treating them with contempt.
Do you think they bought it?

It was more about justification for getting a new coach and shifting the blame off themselves.

[GVGjr]

I thought after the 2007? coaching review Eade lost a lot of these powers?

Are you saying that he lost the power to impose his thoughts and put the recruiting team under the microscope for every decision to make?
Would a newly appointed recruiting manager really ignore the vision and input of a respected senior coach?
Rightly or wrongly I'm led to believe that McCartney imposed his will with the recruiting and drafting late last year.
I might be missing something here but are you saying that the same recruiting team would listen to a new coach more than a senior one?

[GVGjr]

Yes that really worked well. If that's the case its straight out BS to your members and treating them with contempt.
Do you think they bought it?

It was more about justification for getting a new coach and shifting the blame off themselves.

We all know they have been doing that for years. It's just this year that we have decided to make it a focus.
There are plenty of things to be upset about with the way we are playing but to get all focused on the difference between the terminology should be a low priority.

[Maddog37]

As soon as we activated our compo picks it was obvious we were not interested in winning games this year.

Our primary focus is list evaluation and player development. Must be shocking for the senior players that are used to winning games. Guys like Griff and Boyd are playing with no joie de vivre.

[LostDoggy]

Are you saying that he lost the power to impose his thoughts and put the recruiting team under the microscope for every decision to make?
Would a newly appointed recruiting manager really ignore the vision and input of a respected senior coach?
Rightly or wrongly I'm led to believe that McCartney imposed his will with the recruiting and drafting late last year.
I might be missing something here but are you saying that the same recruiting team would listen to a new coach more than a senior one?

I'm asking not saying.
What I know he let Clayton handle contracts which he did well and when Fantasia took over that role it turned to poo.
To me it seems only 1 person has been blamed here when he may have been only a part of it.

[GVGjr]

I'm asking not saying.
What I know he let Clayton handle contracts which he did well and when Fantasia took over that role it turned to poo.
To me it seems only 1 person has been blamed here when he may have been only a part of it.

You have missed the point here and if you go and read some of the previous comments all I'm saying that some are focused on McCartney when in fact there are a number of reasons why we are where we are.
What I'm not getting from you in particular is that Eade has some level of accountability in why we are playing so poorly.
I think we need to acknowledge that McCartney has inherited a poor list as well.
It's not Eade's fault nor is it for Fantasia, Clayton Dalrymple or Smorgon.
As a group they have all failed if this is the standard of our playing list.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

It was a play on words to try and keep the membership numbers. I wish there was a way of telling people exactly how it is and for them not to drop off but a lot of people shut down with the truth especially when it's not what they want to hear.

Rebuild or Refresh doesn't matter in the slightest at the moment.

I understand the motives behind the message, and the fears of a membership drop-off. However I wonder if in hindsight it's actually one of the reasons for the larger drop-off in crowd numbers at our games and going forward wonder if it will make it even harder for the club to sell memberships.

There seemed to be an unhealthy amount of optimism being promised by the club, and I have no doubt many fans bought into it. I wonder if these fans will be as full of hope by season's end and whether they will be inclined to pony up the cash next year when they are once again asked to get on board.

As a club we've seen alot of disappointment, and by and large I think we are well conditioned as a supporter base to cope with onfield disappointment. However I think we are also very quick to jump on any signs of hope, and when the club says things are looking bright this resonates with a large part of our fan-base.

The club has gone out of it's way this year to fan unrealistic expectations via recruiting too. Have a look at some of the statements early on to the media about interest at times in Cloke, and Boak or subtle mentions about how we are well positioned to land a player by virtue of our salary cap position.

Next thing fans are going banana's on line about possibly landing a quality player via trade/free agency, when in all truth we as a club have NEVER, EVER landed a quality player and we certainly aren't going to land one now.

Confusingly, after a couple of weeks of this, we then come out and say 'We will develop our own', and that we aren't interested in Cloke.
We never were, and there was nothing to gain from planting the seed publically otherwise.

I think given the change of coach, it was an opportunity to sell the truth and to sell a message of 'members getting in on the ground floor of a new direction of a new breed of bulldogs.' And as the season progressed the club could've positioned this year as an opportunity for fans to get behind this next generation, And as results went against us to remind the fans that the season won't be measured necessarily in wins, but in player development and setting things up going forward for sustained success.

In short, I think the whole club could've made a better effort in reducing the cognitive dissonance between on field reality and fan expectations, instead of promoting a line that clearly did the opposite.

And I don't think the club's message has done the new coach any favours, and might be some of the reason why he might be attracting unfair criticism.

[LostDoggy]

As soon as we activated our compo picks it was obvious we were not interested in winning games this year.
You are kidding me if you think we are tanking. None of our losses of recent have been honourable ones. If we were tanking, Gilbee for one wouldn't be playing.
Not interested in winning didn't work too well at Melbourne either.

[Desipura]

Not tanking, just a poor team.

I to now believe we are tanking (putting faith in the kids even after a few bad games). The team selections each week baffles me. Playing players in positions they are not suited to, players rested after 1 to 2 weeks in the seniors. Players who played reasonably well get rested the following week.
Not picking players based on match ups.
I cannot ever recall where any of us have gone remotely close to picking the same team the following week as the MC.
Cordy has has a number of ordinary games yet he still plays him. Howard by all reports had a shocker last week and he was not dropped, I think it is a form of tanking.

[LostDoggy]

You have missed the point here and if you go and read some of the previous comments all I'm saying that some are focused on McCartney when in fact there are a number of reasons why we are where we are.
What I'm not getting from you in particular is that Eade has some level of accountability in why we are playing so poorly.
I think we need to acknowledge that McCartney has inherited a poor list as well.
It's not Eade's fault nor is it for Fantasia, Clayton Dalrymple or Smorgon.
As a group they have all failed if this is the standard of our playing list.

This list got us to top 4 not long ago.
We dropped a little last year. We are now bottom 4.
I think the current situation has more too do with current structure than it does to last years.

[Desipura]

The fact is we got rid of a good coach for a crap one.

Not only is this an unfair comment on BMac, it is way too premature.
Were you one of Eades mates as well?
BMac inherited this list, that is FACT. I think he should be given an opportunity to try and develop it like Eade was.
BMAC has a very good reputation for developing people, I am willing to be more patient with him.

[Mantis]

Eade approach to Ward wasn't always accepted as a positive.

And?


It's actually you that is assuming that my comments are an assumption.

So you believe Eade didn't try a number of different methods to try and get the best out of these players?... Really??


Most good coaches don't tow the line of just letting the recruiters do their part and I think it's a failure of both our longer term recent coaches in Eade and Wallace that seem to distance themselves from it.
Sheedy for example was front and centre of all list management and recruiting decisions.

As pointed out by others after the 2007 review a footy manager was hired to take the list manager responsibilites out of Eade's portfolio as he was doing too much.

Pretty sure Eade had his say, but others were hired to care for this role.

------

This is going around in circles... Eade's gone, B-Mac is here.

For any number of reasons I'm more disappointed now than I have been in previous years... Sorry for expressing my disappointment.

[The Underdog]

This list got us to top 4 not long ago.
We dropped a little last year. We are now bottom 4.
I think the current situation has more too do with current structure than it does to last years.

It's also largely to do with the players of that era getting older and retiring or not being as effective, the loss of Cooney's fitness, the loss of Ward and Harbrow from the list and some horrendous drafting during those years. The absence of good 22-24 yo's is very apparent. This list is not a very good one.
I haven't been rapt with the lack of an apparent game plan once we get possession but think it's too early to bury McCartney yet

[Maddog37]

You are kidding me if you think we are tanking. None of our losses of recent have been honourable ones. If we were tanking, Gilbee for one wouldn't be playing.
Not interested in winning didn't work too well at Melbourne either.


I never said it was a good thing nor did I say we are trying to lose. I just said winning is not the major focus this year.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

It's also largely to do with the players of that era getting older and retiring or not being as effective, the loss of Cooney's fitness, the loss of Ward and Harbrow from the list and some horrendous drafting during those years. The absence of good 22-24 yo's is very apparent. This list is not a very good one.
I haven't been rapt with the lack of an apparent game plan once we get possession but think it's too early to bury McCartney yet

I agree Underdog, and combined with some of the points GVG and others have raised with regard to list management/recruitment decisions over the course of the last 3 years have left McCartney with a very ordinary list. Which to me is why the club should not have been more realistic with it's appraisal of our short to medium term hopes.

I know the refresh line was perhaps meant to be a throwaway line in one press conference, however it was made in the one press conference that most Bulldog fans were likely to hear and was repeated in the media.
Agree we need to give McCartney an opportunity to shape his team and give him the time to buld the team. I just don't think the club leaders, through some of it's actions and comments have necessariy made his job easier.

[chef]

I never said it was a good thing nor did I say we are trying to lose. I just said winning is not the major focus this year.

Yep, it's all about education apparently.

[The Underdog]

Yep, it's all about education apparently.

Hopefully it's a Geelong Grammar education and not a Ferntree Gully Tech one:)

[GVGjr]

This list got us to top 4 not long ago.
We dropped a little last year. We are now bottom 4.
I think the current situation has more too do with current structure than it does to last years.

How do you think we would have gone this year if we had the same productivity from Barry Hall's 2011 season?
Equally how would we have gone last year if Hall had left a season earlier?

We did make the top 4 for 3 seasons which is a tremendous reflection of Eade's time with us but you seem to ignore that the result of a number of short term decisions to achieve that have contributed to what we are now experiencing. Maybe it's simply the price we had to pay.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Not only is this an unfair comment on BMac, it is way too premature.
Were you one of Eades mates as well?
BMac inherited this list, that is FACT. I think he should be given an opportunity to try and develop it like Eade was.
BMAC has a very good reputation for developing people, I am willing to be more patient with him.

It may be premature but IMO we are not seeing anything that we have bee promised or that looks like he is the man for the Job, y I like Rodney and thought he was prefect for our Club at the time.

What I struggle with now is the fact the the club looks to have no idea about anything in the AFL. They could be talking up the next steps for a Cooney, what they a wanting from our big forwards etc. from memory when we didn't have a big forward and Rocket played Minson at Ff he just came out and said he just wanted him to make the contest and bring the ball to ground. I never though Minson was a good forward but based on what I was old thought he did a good job and I could see why he was played at FF.

We are in the crapper and we need some better communication than the same stuff they are pushing about good young men!

The ALF is a business and surly over the last 5 years we have had a full review and a mini review and if the people running this club had any idea things would be a little different now. I have all the patience in the world forthe kids like Libba, Jones, Wallis, Dahlhous, Smith, Cordy, Roughy, Astin, Tutt, but I need to see leadership from the club, something that shows me the coaching staff are the men for the job.

I'm not prevailed to see the behind the seems stuff so make my option based on the infield stuff and at this point I'm really disappointed and can't understand why tis list could not beat the Carlton side last night or why it's averaging 10 goal losses over the last month. In my option we aren't really that bad and the list/players are far better than these results.

So if BMac is the man, come out and say so, but give me something! Are we happy with all the assistant coaches, Fanta, the recruiters if not flick someone ow and get the heat off the people that don't need it!

[GVGjr]

So you believe Eade didn't try a number of different methods to try and get the best out of these players?... Really??



His initial approaches to some of the players didn't work in fact it alienated a few of them. He had to change his approach because he realized that some of his comments cut a lot deeper than they needed to and kudos to him for doing so.

[bornadog]

We can all bang on about decisions from the past that have left us with an inferior team etc etc, but why should Macca not be up for criticism?

As I said earlier, the game plan, the selections, the lack of ability to make strategic moves in a game must all come under scrutiny. All I know is we have been failing to kick goals.

Have a look at our past 7 games what we have kicked in the second half:

Sydney 2
Port Adelaide 8
Brisbane Lions 2
Essendon 5
Fremantle 4
Hawthorn 1
Carlton 4

and early in the season

West Coast 2
Saints 4

This is woeful and I don't believe we have the answers. We have a coaching panel that is totally inexperienced and needs an injection of a mentor to Macca or some experienced assistants as this can't go on.

[GVGjr]

We can all bang on about decisions from the past that have left us with an inferior team etc etc, but why should Macca not be up for criticism?



He absolutely should be but insightful comments from Chops along the lines of Eade Good, B-Mac Crap is the catalyst to challenge how good actually Eade was and I do acknowledge he was a very good coach.

Just as a side note, did you put Eade under the same microscope last year and do you acknowledge that some of the short term decisions made are in large the reason why we have a poor list?

I've already acknowledged that I think we should have won that game and I believe the match committee got it wrong. McCartney is a large part of the loss last night and why we are playing poorly.

[anfo27]

GVGjr is the only one making any sense out there.

Its obvious we are not trying to win & i don't have a problem with that. Improvement is not just judged from the amount of wins you have. We all love winning but does beating the Carlton reserves change anything?

We have been crap for 2 years before macca came but wins blinded everyone. Yeah we made the a prelim 2 seasons ago but come on we were a very ordinary team that had far too many excuses as to why were crap except for the actual truth. We had major holes on our list with no kids being given some game time. We had a coach who was far too stubborn to change his coaching tactics to keep us competitive against the good teams.

If Hall wash't there last year we would have finished bottom 4 as well.

We aren't winning games but I see improvement even if doesn't come in the form of wins. Get off maccas back & give him time to turn this list around. Also get off Howies back, the kid showed a bit last night & posters are still getting stuck into him, disgraceful.

[F'scary]

GVGjr is the only one making any sense out there.

Its obvious we are not trying to win & i don't have a problem with that. Improvement is not just judged from the amount of wins you have. We all love winning but does beating the Carlton reserves change anything?

We have been crap for 2 years before macca came but wins blinded everyone. Yeah we made the a prelim 2 seasons ago but come on we were a very ordinary team that had far too many excuses as to why were crap except for the actual truth. We had major holes on our list with no kids being given some game time. We had a coach who was far too stubborn to change his coaching tactics to keep us competitive against the good teams.

If Hall wash't there last year we would have finished bottom 4 as well.

We aren't winning games but I see improvement even if doesn't come in the form of wins. Get off maccas back & give him time to turn this list around. Also get off Howies back, the kid showed a bit last night & posters are still getting stuck into him, disgraceful.

Sorry but crap teams don't make prelims. We were really good in 2010.

[bornadog]

Just as a side note, did you put Eade under the same microscope last year and do you acknowledge that some of the short term decisions made are in large the reason why we have a poor list? .

There is a big difference between an experienced coach and a first year coach. With Eade, you know that he is coaching at a high standard, so you don't question him as much as a first year coach. Last year we had lots of injuries and ended up playing 10 debutants. All I know is that I had confidence in Eade as a coach to get the best out of the players at his disposal, and on match day he is second to none. The same cannot be said about the current coach.

Yes, I was unhappy that Eagleton, Hahn and Aker were kept on one year too many, but that is just three players. The bigger concern was the drafting of DJ, Vez, and to a certain extent Sherman (which at the time looked a pretty good deal).

At the end of 2010 we should have just drafted kids and same at the end of 2011, that would have made a big difference for the future. Unfortunately for Eade, Smorgon came out and said we have to be in the GF for 2011 which was unnecessary pressure on everyone.

Having said all that, it was the right decision to change coaches and time will tell if we have made the right decision. But right now we are entitled to voice an opinion on the crap football we are playing.

[Eastdog]

Sorry but crap teams don't make prelims. We were really good in 2010.

We must have been doing something to make the prelim final in 2010. We ran out of steam in the end coupled with some injuries.

[LostDoggy]

We struggled last season but we didn't raise the white flag like we've done with monotonous regularity this season. I remember games last year, like the West Coke game at Etihad, where we were garbage early but fought out games to the death. We still tried to take the game on last season. By contrast this season we take the safe option, we move the ball at glacier speed, we hit the boundary - we are far uglier to watch this season compared to last. That is why we get 24k to a home game against Carlton on a beautiful night for football.

I didn't see them raise the white flag last night I saw a bunch of kids who were stuffed
and a few older players like Griff who had busted their gut all night out on his feet also.
If we hadn't slowed the game down a little when we did they were just about to run all over us. Slowing it down kept it closer and at least gave us some sort of chance to pinch it. Was ugly though.

[Eastdog]

I didn't see them raise the white flag last night I saw a bunch of kids who were stuffed
and a few older players like Griff who had busted their gut all night out on his feet also.
If we hadn't slowed the game down a little when we did they were just about to run all over us. Slowing it down kept it closer and at least gave us some sort of chance to pinch it. Was ugly though.

A far cry from 2009 when we were a quick team and very exciting watch. We have got slower as the years have gone on.

[LostDoggy]

Why we are playing poorly?
There are a number of reasons.
Things like a lack of a viable game plan, inability to counter opposition moves/players and little to no development in our players this year.
Who is at fault here for those?

You can't be serious. Older players are dropping off yes and the younger ones are getting
thrown in the deep end but you can see them learning. You won't see the results immediately though.

[G-Mo77]

It comes across to me as Eade's mates have been salivating for failure and are taking glee in our demise. Like it or not boys we'd be in the same position we would be now if we had kept Eade on. Eade was let go, put the knives back in their sheaves.

[bornadog]

It comes across to me as Eade's mates have been salivating for failure and are taking glee in our demise. Like it or not boys we'd be in the same position we would be now if we had kept Eade on. Eade was let go, put the knives back in their sheaves.

You honestly believe that?:rolleyes:

We love our club and hate losing by ten goals every week or to a Carlton reserves side. They had ten of their best players out last night and we couldn't beat them:mad:

[G-Mo77]

You honestly believe that?:rolleyes:

Axe to grind. That's the way it comes across from a keyboard POV anyway.

If Eade stayed on and we were in the same position there would be much less vitriol aimed at the coach.

[LostDoggy]

I've gotta say, I'm not as devastated as many others (and perhaps as I should be). I picked a 2 goal loss, and wasn't far off the mark unfortunately. I am disappointed we let another game slip, but I'm strangely resigned to this happening. We're almost completely devoid of A-graders, and players who will/can stand up and deliver when we most need it. Coaching moves/selections are continually baffling, but hey, they're cracking in and getting an education, and they're good people, right? :rolleyes:

On the game: Really disappointed for Higgins, thought he's shown a bit at times this year and was doing well tonight. Tom W. looks good in the F50, and Lakey continues his good form. Despite the Gilbee critics, I reckon he's done some good things since coming back in, and the kids do need a few experienced heads around.

You've made a lot of comments like this and I find its wearing a little thin. Yes it hurts at
the moment but do you honestly believe this is all McCartney has to offer? It's his first year
no Morris Addison or Wood who may have freed Murphy up last night, no Cooney no Williams for long periods this year, lost Higgins during the game, Ward gone Harbrow gone and a bunch of kids he didn't draft to work with. Essendon seem to be tiring and their kids have had more years in the system than ours. From what I remember most people were happy with
the way we started the season .

[LostDoggy]

We have a coaching panel that is totally inexperienced and needs an injection of a mentor to Macca or some experienced assistants as this can't go on.

Yep, would have thought this would have been part and parcel of hiring Macca I just assumed we couldn't afford it.

[Sedat]

But we were sliding back at an alarming rate and basically held up by the likes of Barry Hall. We are paying for the short term decisions over the last 3 years. Keeping Eagleton and Hahn on well part their use-by dates. Keeping Akermanis on one season too many. Trading for Sherman wasn't a good decision then and certainly isn't now. Promoting Mulligan and Hooper who weren't ready and alienating some youngsters and not tying up some other talented youngsters with contracts at the appropriate time are all contributing to where we are now.

We can continue to point the finger at McCartney and Fantasia but I reckon Eade is being made up to be more of a messiah than he really was. He isn't being blamed even in part for leaving us with a flat footed playing list and some significant gaps in recent draft crops.
I think it is rash in the extreme to be questioning BMac's bonafides as a senior coach, but the way we have dropped off sine Round 9 has been alarming. Rocket was far from perfect in his last couple of years but he didn't resort to massive numbers behind the ball or a risk-averse short chipping game plan. There was a system in place to try and score - he was rightly criticised for not adapting to the forward press, and had started to counter this last year (2 years too late in hindsight). Rocket was never the messiah but he did have us very competitive, even last year with no Lake marshalling our backline.

This discussion shouldn't be a referendum on Rocket v BMac, but I thinkit is healthy to ask questions about every aspect of our on-field operations to ascertain why we are the worst team in the competition save for GWS in the last 6 weeks. I have no problem with our results in that time but I am highly concerned with the manner of our performances. I have no doubt that BMac and the coaching group share these concerns.

[AndrewP6]

Doesn't necessarily mean he is drinking.

No, but I think an injured player being out past 2am would be frowned upon. And FWIW, I reckon he might've been drinking.

[Sedat]

I didn't see them raise the white flag last night I saw a bunch of kids who were stuffed
and a few older players like Griff who had busted their gut all night out on his feet also.
If we hadn't slowed the game down a little when we did they were just about to run all over us. Slowing it down kept it closer and at least gave us some sort of chance to pinch it. Was ugly though.
Hey Frank, I think you are being a little generous of your assessment of last night. Carlton kicked 12 of the last 16 goals, which has unfortunately been a consistent pattern from us since Round 10. And it was against a half-strength opposition in terrible form themselves for the last 2 months

[bulldogsman]

I agree with GVGjr on most points.

The list we have is awful. Eade and the club at the time got it wrong and now we are paying for it. McCartney deserves some criticism given what the team has produced so far, but this year was always a year we were going to struggle no matter who coached us. Barry Hall held our forward line together and Ward was nearing the top 5 players at the club. We also have a pretty big bunch of ageing stars, of course we were always going backwards this year.

McCartney still needs time to show us what he can do. So far he's been disappointing I know, but at the moment it's quite clear to me that McCartney is not worried about the result. It's more about experiment and development.

The capitulations are concerning, but didn't the same thing happen at Geelong? He's been there and he's trying to build a team that will stand up in these situations. It takes a while to build up this kind of mentality and he needs the right players to do it. It didn't happen overnight at Geelong, I think we just need more patience.

[AndrewP6]

Everitt, Hill and Ward (and from the older group Lake) all had issues with a coach that didn't really modify his approach to the person. At the same time, he ignored the negative influence of Sam Reid and talked up the erratic Schofield.

Ward had issues? What was Reid's negative influence? In fairness to Rocket, Schofield had many excited.


The former coach isn't being held to account not in the slightest but now it's open season on the current. I don't get why Eade isn't receiving at least a mention because it's essentially his list.

IMO we didn't look non-competitive with essentially the same list last year. I go to games now expecting a loss.

[LostDoggy]

Hey Frank, I think you are being a little generous of your assessment of last night. Carlton kicked 12 of the last 16 goals, which has unfortunately been a consistent pattern from us since Round 10. And it was against a half-strength opposition in terrible form themselves for the last 2 months

Probably a little. We played ok early on though and finally are some hints that a forward line
of Williams , Higgins, Grant and throw Jones/Dahl in there could look ok. It's been trial and error. We had to give Cordy an extended run down there this year, we paid for it but BMac had to try that. Cordy will still could develop anyhow it will just take time. Remember we lost Higgins during the match too. Carlton were supposed to be playing in the GF this year and we are about where we should be unfortunately. To me it just seems players like Dahl are visibly tiring both during games, and as the weeks go by.

[AndrewP6]

You've made a lot of comments like this and I find its wearing a little thin. Yes it hurts at
the moment but do you honestly believe this is all McCartney has to offer?

I've not seen or heard much to give me a different impression. Ridiculous selection decisions, leaving players in positions where they are struggling /failing, not making changes in response to match circumstances.

[Maddog37]

No, but I think an injured player being out past 2am would be frowned upon. And FWIW, I reckon he might've been drinking.


I guess the other question is whether he is actually injured or being rested.

[AndrewP6]

I guess the other question is whether he is actually injured or being rested.

Yep, fair point.

[Sedat]

I agree with GVGjr on most points.

The list we have is awful. Eade and the club at the time got it wrong and now we are paying for it. McCartney deserves some criticism given what the team has produced so far, but this year was always a year we were going to struggle no matter who coached us. Barry Hall held our forward line together and Ward was nearing the top 5 players at the club. We also have a pretty big bunch of ageing stars, of course we were always going backwards this year.

McCartney still needs time to show us what he can do. So far he's been disappointing I know, but at the moment it's quite clear to me that McCartney is not worried about the result. It's more about experiment and development.

The capitulations are concerning, but didn't the same thing happen at Geelong? He's been there and he's trying to build a team that will stand up in these situations. It takes a while to build up this kind of mentality and he needs the right players to do it. It didn't happen overnight at Geelong, I think we just need more patience.
Rocket is no longer at the club so he has paid the ultimate price for these decisions, even though his ultimate measurement is the W column. So what price has head of football paid for his consistently abject failures in list management and player contract negotiations?

[azabob]

Rocket is no longer at the club so he has paid the ultimate price for these decisions, even though his ultimate measurement is the W column. So what price has head of football paid for his consistently abject failures in list management and player contract negotiations?

Hi Sedat, you are very passionate (not sure of the correct word) about this issue and rightly so. Can I ask have you written a formal letter of complaint as a member to the appropriate person?

[bulldogsman]

Rocket is no longer at the club so he has paid the ultimate price for these decisions, even though his ultimate measurement is the W column. So what price has head of football paid for his consistently abject failures in list management and player contract negotiations?

I'm with you, he should be given the axe.
Surely we can do better.

[Mantis]

It comes across to me as Eade's mates have been salivating for failure and are taking glee in our demise.

Am I included in this grouping?

If I have been I am embarrassed for you to believe something so childish.


Like it or not boys we'd be in the same position we would be now if we had kept Eade on. Eade was let go, put the knives back in their sheaves.

How do you know that to be the case?

I would think that every other coach in the game would have us playing their way... the result of this is unknown. What is known is that the tactics and methods that the current coach is employing aren't work at present which has all supporters (including Eade's mates) disappointed.

[LostDoggy]

I never said it was a good thing nor did I say we are trying to lose. I just said winning is not the major focus this year.

It's really important to develop a culture where winning doesn't matter.
Is the attractive brand we play?

[LostDoggy]

Axe to grind. That's the way it comes across from a keyboard POV anyway.

If Eade stayed on and we were in the same position there would be much less vitriol aimed at the coach.

Sorry that's bs.
I was an Eade fan but he is gone and maybe that needed to happen.
Its been brought up a number of times that he seems to be the only one that's lost his job.

From what I have seen this year I don't rate McCartney as a coach.
He can blame the past but decisions made this year are more puzzling than whether a stalwart played a season or two too many.

[Eastdog]

Sorry that's bs.
I was an Eade fan but he is gone and maybe that needed to happen.
Its been brought up a number of times that he seems to be the only one that's lost his job.

From what I have seen this year I don't rate McCartney as a coach.
He can blame the past but decisions made this year are more puzzling than whether a stalwart played a season or two too many.

McCartney being formally an assistant coach at Geelong in their premiership years and when they were up there must count for something. It is just too easy to blame Macca right now for the current situation. I think he is trying to implement a game plan but its not coming off.

[Sedat]

Hi Sedat, you are very passionate (not sure of the correct word) about this issue and rightly so. Can I ask have you written a formal letter of complaint as a member to the appropriate person?That's a very good question. I haven't and I probably should.

Passionate is the right word. It is an issue that staggered me at the time and staggers me just as much now. On every conceivable measure of performance evaluation, Fantasia has been a complete and utter failure in his role of list manager and player contract negotiator from 2009-2011. Rocket would have some culpability with some of these poor decisions in that time but nowhere near as much culpability as Fantasia, and yet Fantasia was appointed to oversee the review of our on-field operations at the end of last season??? It defies any semblance of logic and belief.

I was extremely comfortable with BMac's appointment up to Round 9 this season. He had us playing a brand of football that had an identifiable end point and the players were, to a man, buying in to his plans. We only suffered one awful peformance in that time (against St Kilda) and put in a number of creditable performances against contenders of the calibre of Adelaide (in Adelaide), Collingwood and Geelong. But since then it has become apparent that the opposition are structuring up against us to counter the BMac game plan and we haven't come close to unlocking the code to counter this. It might well be a personnel issue but the coaching panel haven't appeared to find any answers in that time since Round 9. The logic of building and perfecting the base (ie: contested possessions) is sound, but it is equally important to observe trends in the modern game and make plans to not only counter whatever the opposition thrust in our direction but actually come up with something that catches the rest of the competition napping. Perhaps the game will evolve into a one-on-one style again in a year or two as the high scores will have coaches structuring up to prevent this from occurring. It this happens, the work we have put in since the summer will have been time very well spent. If the game evolves into a different beast altogether, it will be fascinating to watch how BMac and the coaching panel respond in the next 18 months.

[AndrewP6]

McCartney being formally an assistant coach at Geelong in their premiership years and when they were up there must count for something. It is just too easy to blame Macca right now for the current situation. I think he is trying to implement a game plan but its not coming off.

The plan's not coming off, yet we barrel on with it regardless. I think Assistant is the role he's best suited to. Doesn't have what it takes for the main job, IMO.

[Eastdog]

The plan's not coming off, yet we barrel on with it regardless. I think Assistant is the role he's best suited to. Doesn't have what it takes for the main job, IMO.

What about other coaches who started like Macca having not coached in a senior role before but were assistants previously, Clarkson (Hawthorn), Hird (Essendon), Buckley (Collingwood), Sanderson (Adelaide) just to name a few.

[Mantis]

McCartney being formally an assistant coach at Geelong in their premiership years and when they were up there must count for something. It is just too easy to blame Macca right now for the current situation. I think he is trying to implement a game plan but its not coming off.

When you work out what that game plan is can you let me know.

I have no idea of what we are trying to achieve especially in regard to ball movement and leading patterns.

[Eastdog]

When you work out what that game plan is can you let me know.

I have no idea of what we are trying to achieve especially in regard to ball movement and leading patterns.

Only Macca would know. Im not sure either. He has focused on contested footy a lot.

[G-Mo77]

Am I included in this grouping?

If I have been I am embarrassed for you to believe something so childish.

How do you know that to be the case?

I would think that every other coach in the game would have us playing their way... the result of this is unknown. What is known is that the tactics and methods that the current coach is employing aren't work at present which has all supporters (including Eade's mates) disappointed.

Sorry Mantis that is the way it comes across. I've done a lot more reading than speaking this season and noticed this trend. If it were Eade in the seat and this is the way it was unraveling there would be a hell of a lot more support. Feel free to feel embarrassed for me now. :)

Do I disagree with your concerns? No. I don't and agree with a lot of them but I'm going to give a coach more than 3/4 of a season to improve our team rather than hang him out to dry and take pot shots every chance I get.

[AndrewP6]

What about other coaches who started like Macca having not coached in a senior role before but were assistants previously, Clarkson (Hawthorn), Hird (Essendon), Buckley (Collingwood), Sanderson (Adelaide) just to name a few.

They've gone alright. I don't think McCartney is. I think he's out of his depth.

[Eastdog]

They've gone alright. I don't think McCartney is. I think he's out of his depth.

How long would you give Macca before you would consider changing coach if things don't improve.

[AndrewP6]

How long would you give Macca before you would consider changing coach if things don't improve.

I wouldn't have appointed him in the first place, but they did, so... somewhere around April- May 2013. That's about 18 months in the job, ample time to show me he's got more tricks in his bag than I've seen thus far, and time to put more of his gameplan (whatever that may be) into place. Until then, "enjoy" the ride, I guess (in an "oh shit we're screwed" kinda way!)

I could've been more BF-like and said "Next week", but I'm trying to be mature :)

[Eastdog]

I wouldn't have appointed him in the first place, but they did, so... somewhere around April- May 2013. That's about 18 months in the job, ample time to show me he's got more tricks in his bag than I've seen thus far, and time to put more of his gameplan (whatever that may be) into place. Until then, "enjoy" the ride, I guess (in an "oh shit we're screwed" kinda way!)

I could've been more BF-like and said "Next week", but I'm trying to be mature :)

Do you reckon we should of gone for Leon Cameron maybe when we were deciding on our new coach.

[azabob]

Do you reckon we should of gone for Leon Cameron maybe when we were deciding on our new coach.

I think, Andrew thinks we should have stuck with Eade.

[Eastdog]

I think, Andrew thinks we should have stuck with Eade.

Malthouse stayed at Collingwood for decade. Eade could of easily stayed on for another stint but that's history and now we have to focus on the present and going forward.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Eade was finished.

Let's move on.

[The Underdog]

Eade was finished.

Let's move on.

If he hadn't of finished at the end of last year, I think it's unlikely the list would have had results that would have got him through this year regardless of how good he was. I agree with your point though, he's gone. McCartney has another year to improve and then he's in trouble.

[Desipura]

If you go back to the posts on here when Eade was given his marching orders, you will find those same posters are strongly criticizing BMac.
Some calling for his head is ridiculous, question the lines of Fantasia and Garlick, BMac should be given at least 2 years.
BMac played a bit part in making Geelong a force, I dare say he knows what he is doing or are we questioning the likes of Chris Grant who was on the selection panel?
All the premiership players that had a lot to with him rate him very highly, so I am willing to take their word for it at this stage.

[AndrewP6]

If he hadn't of finished at the end of last year, I think it's unlikely the list would have had results that would have got him through this year regardless of how good he was. I agree with your point though, he's gone. McCartney has another year to improve and then he's in trouble.

Which is more or less what I said...

[AndrewP6]

I dare say he knows what he is doing or are we questioning the likes of Chris Grant who was on the selection panel?
All the premiership players that had a lot to with him rate him very highly, so I am willing to take their word for it at this stage.

Maybe. Nothing wrong with asking questions, given the embarrassment of the last 6 weeks.

[AndrewP6]

Eade was finished.

Let's move on.

My issue is not simply that Eade should've been retained, it's that IMO they made an error in giving McCartney the nod.

[bornadog]

I don't understand why this thread has turned out to be an Eade versus Macca discussion.

Why can't some of us question Macca and the way we are playing without bringing up past coaches. Yes we made some bad recruiting errors and kept players on too long, but you know what, that happens to most coaches. The coaches it doesn't happen to means that they recruit well, like Collingwood and Sydney who got rid of their coaches when the were still top of their game and handed over a decent playing group.

So, we have to cope with what we have in players, and if the club and coach don' like what they have at their disposal they can get rid of players and draft players they believe we need.

In the meantime, if we continue to play the way we are, we will vent our spleen.

[Desipura]

I don't understand why this thread has turned out to be an Eade versus Macca discussion.
Chops comment that Eade was a good coach and BMac is crap would be the answer.

[Mantis]

Eade was finished.

Let's move on.

Perhaps you should tell the bloke who runs this site... He's the one who pushed the discussion to where it got.

[anfo27]

Maybe. Nothing wrong with asking questions, given the embarrassment of the last 6 weeks.

We had more embarrassing results under Eade last season & we were not in a rebuilding phase.

[LostDoggy]

We had more embarrassing results under Eade last season & we were not in a rebuilding phase.

The Subiaco result last year and when else? We also beat a close to full strength Carlton who were top 4 at the time.
This year we have copped 7 hammerings, some at home to interstaters and lost to a reserves side last night.

[w3design]

In my opinion our performance deterioration this year is anything but unpredictable. It is pretty clearly the continuation of a downward curve that started two seasons before. Hopefully it will begin to bottom out by seasons end.
I agree we are now reaping the results of some very poor recruiting/trade decisions from previous seasons. I hope we do not continue down the track of trading for marginal players from other sides in hope we can turn them into stars the way Sydney seems so talented at doing. We have shown no such ability unfortunately. Our record in this regard is little short of abysmal. The only two that were even briefly of much benefit were when we took players [ all be it flawed ones] that were proven champions in Hall and Aker.
Of the other recent trades/pick-ups none have proved to be more than they seemed at their old clubs. Austin and Marko are serviceable, Moles, Sherman, DJ and Vez. are depth players at best.

Sadly I feel a significant clean out is called for at season's end. That needs to go well beyond the playing group as well. For mine, the two Mac's and Smith and one other of the assistants are worth more time. The recruitment staff deserve this draft as chance to prove they have what it takes, as a few of last years youngsters show promise in the longer term. In other words, I think Football Dept. manager and a couple of assistants are or should be on very shaky ground.

Due to B. Mac's relative inexperience, and the modern trend of rapidly changing game plan/styles, I would love to see us add in a highly experienced tactical advisor to the coaching structure, akin to Thompson at Ess., and Rocket at Collingwood, and to do it now before all the most talented options are soaked up by other clubs. For mine if we could grab Roos, he would be ideal.

On a slightly different tack, I think the reason why our game day attendances are poor, is not just because we are losing matches [ though no doubt it is contributory], but more because we are playing seriously unattractive football. For heaven's sake the whole reason for professional sport, is as a form of entertainment. The sooner we remember that entertainment rather than win at any price is what draws crowds the better.
I certainly share the frustration of other supporters when we hang on to the ball until it is to late to go forward as the opposition has flooded back. Then chip it around and backward until we inevitably stuff it up and give away a cheap goal and all advantage.

[anfo27]

Sorry but crap teams don't make prelims. We were really good in 2010.

If you went into that finals series expecting anything but the smackings we received then you were wearing rose coloured glasses. There were only 3 good teams that year & the rest were ordinary & we were one of those.

Let me guess, you had us in the top 4 at the start of last season believing all the rubbish the media dished up?

We have been in trouble for a long time. Being flat track bullies doesn't make you a really good team.

[chef]

Eade's long gone and it's time to move on.

[anfo27]

The Subiaco result last year and when else? We also beat a close to full strength Carlton who were top 4 at the time.
This year we have copped 7 hammerings, some at home to interstaters and lost to a reserves side last night.

Round 1 against Essendon still remains as the most embarrassing result that i have ever witnessed. I was ready for Eade to be sacked or for him to resign after that game.

[AndrewP6]

We had more embarrassing results under Eade last season & we were not in a rebuilding phase.

Which ones? One at Subi...

[AndrewP6]

Round 1 against Essendon still remains as the most embarrassing result that i have ever witnessed. I was ready for Eade to be sacked or for him to resign after that game.

And we've had about half a dozen that bad (in my view, worse) this year.

[Ghost Dog]

The plan's not coming off, yet we barrel on with it regardless. I think Assistant is the role he's best suited to. Doesn't have what it takes for the main job, IMO.

Do you not think you are being unduly harsh because we lost?
Imagine Tom or Grant slotted their goals, Higgins stayed on the park, and likely we would have won. It was a close game and we had more youth than them. Only logical we would tire a bit.
Sure, the coach might have made a few better decisions. But it's just one part of a bigger picture and can't see how the loss can be hung around his neck in total.

The Murphy on Betts decision was a disappointment for me and was always going to end in tears.

[AndrewP6]

Do you not think you are being unduly harsh because we lost?
Imagine Tom or Grant slotted their goals, Higgins stayed on the park, and likely we would have won. It was a close game and we had more youth than them. Only logical we would tire a bit

No I don't.

Just imagine....

Fact remains, they didn't, and we lost. Sure we had our share of young 'uns, but they had half a team of changes, three blokes in their first game, no quality ruck and one of the league's best mids all on the sidelines. They played a glorified magoos team, and we couldn't seal the deal. As far as the coach goes, I'm not stuck just on last night's game. I haven't seen anything thus far that tells me he was the right choice. I have no idea what his 'bigger picture' involves, and I can't see improvement on the whole.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Paulv I like your analysis but the six players you refer to are only average footballers. It is a fallacy to recruit players who have struggled elsewhere. We are simply playing guys like you refer to who do not measure up. We are left to rely on the same few players like Boyd Griffen Cross Lake Dahlhaus Picken and Murphy plus improvement from Liberatore and Wallis. We simply do not have the depth of talent at the moment. It is too easy to be critical of BMcC without looking at the current list he has at his disposal.

[Ghost Dog]

No I don't.

Just imagine....

Fact remains, they didn't, and we lost. Sure we had our share of young 'uns, but they had half a team of changes, three blokes in their first game, no quality ruck and one of the league's best mids all on the sidelines. They played a glorified magoos team, and we couldn't seal the deal.

It's easy to be emotional after a loss. But the fact is it was a two goal loss. Missed a few set shots. Few set up errors. Glance off the post. Young team. We are at where we are at.

[AndrewP6]

It's easy to be emotional after a loss. But the fact is it was a two goal loss. Missed a few set shots. Few set up errors. Glance off the post. Young team. We are at where we are at.

And all too easy when they come thick and fast, week in, week out. Believe me, I was pulling for a win last night. Posters were saying we'd blown it, I actually thought we could steal a win.

[anfo27]

And we've had about half a dozen that bad (in my view, worse) this year.

Hell of difference when you have an experience finals outfit getting embarrassed than a team choc full of kids getting smashed don't you think?

[Eastdog]

And all too easy when they come thick and fast, week in, week out. Believe me, I was pulling for a win last night. Posters were saying we'd blown it, I actually thought we could steal a win.

Definitely if we were going to win it was last night and a quality team wouldn't let them back in like that. St Kilda arent going great guns either. Do you think we are any chance next week or is that it in terms of where another win for the season will come.