Stand Alone Bulldogs VFL Team in 2014

[Mofra]

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/westernbulldogsnewsfeatures/newsarticle/tabid/4112/newsid/148166/default.aspx

The Western Bulldogs today announced that they will field a stand-alone VFL team, from 2014.

The Bulldogs and Williamstown Football Club have agreed, in consultation with AFL Victoria, to bring forward the terms of the current alignment agreement between the two clubs by one year. This means the agreement will end at the end of 2013 rather than 2014.

Western Bulldogs Chief Executive Simon Garlick said that the new agreement was the best outcome for both clubs.

“The establishment of a stand- alone VFL side has been a clear strategic objective for the Club and it is very pleasing this will become a reality in 2014,” Simon Garlick said today.

“This outcome is consistent with our increased focus and commitment to the development of our young exciting players.

“This decision supports our aim to build and develop our team from within and the ultimate delivery of sustainable success, both on and off the field”.

Garlick indicated that the intention was to play matches at Whitten Oval as well as throughout the region to reinforce the Club's standing as the team of Melbourne's West, the Bulldogs' heartland.

Williamstown Football Club General Manager, Brendan Curry also announced that the Seagulls would field a stand-alone VFL team in the 2014 Competition.

“This is a significant result for the Seagulls and we are excited by the opportunities it will bring for the Club in the future.

“Equally we are looking forward to a successful season next year in partnership with the Dogs - off the back of a competitive 2012”.

[Murphy'sLore]

Undoubtedly this is an exciting development for the club but I'm a bit worried - where is the money coming from to pay for this?

[azabob]

Undoubtedly this is an exciting development for the club but I'm a bit worried - where is the money coming from to pay for this?

It's a good question, but to make money, you have to spend money, or to be the best club you can, maybe you have to have a stand alone team?

What is everyone's thoughts on what the AFL would be thinking? The AFL were the one's who dismantled the reserves comp and now it appears it will be coming back.

[bornadog]

Great News for the development of our young team.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Best news since the WO redevelopment.

This would be incredible if we get games played at WO, too.

[Twodogs]

Great news. It's going to be interesting seeing where my loyaltys lie when we play our first game against Port Melbourne.


I wonder if we will win a VFL premiership before we win a AFL flag?

[Ghost Dog]

GVGjr had a good point earlier in the year. The big risk is that the VFL team pulls crowds away from our AFL team. I for one will enjoyed going to Willy games and following players, sometimes more so than the AFL team. If it's called Footscray, will that be a risk? It could be an issue, because I for one am really looking forward to following a WB VFL team.

[Eastdog]

Great News. More teams are going down this direction in getting a stand alone team.

[Dancin' Douggy]

It will be awesome to be able to bring the kids, they can run around without having to sit in their seats.
Kick the footy on the ground, barrack for Footscray.................Cold tins instead of plastic cups? I'm excited!
Won't stop me going to see the REAL doga of course.

[Eastdog]

GVGjr had a good point earlier in the year. The big risk is that the VFL team pulls crowds away from our AFL team. I for one will enjoyed going to Willy games and following players, sometimes more so than the AFL team. If it's called Footscray, will that be a risk? It could be an issue, because I for one am really looking forward to following a WB VFL team.

Do you reckon if we call the VFL team Footscray that eventually the AFL team will be called Footscray again. Would the VFL team maybe just be called WB.

[LostDoggy]

Garlick indicated that the intention was to play matches at Whitten Oval as well as throughout the region to reinforce the Club's standing as the team of Melbourne's West, the Bulldogs' heartland.

West Footscray on Essex Street?

[bornadog]

Do you reckon if we call the VFL team Footscray that eventually the AFL team will be called Footscray again. Would the VFL team maybe just be called WB.

I think they will continue with the Western bulldogs branding

[bornadog]

Garlick indicated that the intention was to play matches at Whitten Oval as well as throughout the region to reinforce the Club's standing as the team of Melbourne's West, the Bulldogs' heartland.

West Footscray on Essex Street?

Ha ha, that would be great. I use to kick my footy around there when we lived nearby in the early 60's

[Eastdog]

I think they will continue with the Western bulldogs branding

Like with Collingwood and Geelong calling their VFL teams by the same name.

[bornadog]

Like with Collingwood and Geelong calling their VFL teams by the same name.

It makes sense especially since they want to play some games away from WO

[Eastdog]

It makes sense especially since they want to play some games away from WO

True as EJ Smith said from the article.

[Go_Dogs]

Great news.

Without knowing the finer details of the financial aspect of this move it's hard to comment on that, but from a development point of view this is a great outcome for the club.

[bornadog]

Great news.

Without knowing the finer details of the financial aspect of this move it's hard to comment on that, but from a development point of view this is a great outcome for the club.

I would say they have a year to get sponsorships to try and cover the financials.

[Mofra]

GVGjr had a good point earlier in the year. The big risk is that the VFL team pulls crowds away from our AFL team. I for one will enjoyed going to Willy games and following players, sometimes more so than the AFL team. If it's called Footscray, will that be a risk? It could be an issue, because I for one am really looking forward to following a WB VFL team.
We'd win from that scenario IIRC?

We are a guaranteed payment from Etihad regardless of crowd size, yet I'd expect attracting more people at WO would have a better ROI.

[Go_Dogs]

I would say they have a year to get sponsorships to try and cover the financials.

Yep, spot on - will have a year to tie everything up. Now the announcement has been made, we have to follow through so will be interesting to see the details as they emerge.

Any ideas on who we may target as a sponsor?

[boydogs]

Fantastic announcement. Well done Dogs.

[LongWait]

I would say they have a year to get sponsorships to try and cover the financials.

I agree that this would be part of their thinking - twelve months now to try to offset as much of the financial cost as possible and to build the financial plan to ensure we can sustain a VFL team into the future.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Yep, spot on - will have a year to tie everything up. Now the announcement has been made, we have to follow through so will be interesting to see the details as they emerge.

Any ideas on who we may target as a sponsor?

I think they should target Mack trucks.
Bulldog Logo.
Tough.
Working class.

[Greystache]

Great news for the club, the only way to develop young players to their best potential is to have full control over them.

As much as I enjoyed going out to watch Williamstown play it will be nice not to have so many games ruined by horrible weather conditions.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Great news for the club, the only way to develop young players to their best potential is to have full control over them.

As much as I enjoyed going out to watch Williamstown play it will be nice not to have so many games ruined by horrible weather conditions.

Yeah, cos it never got wet or windy at WO ;)

[Mofra]

Yeah, cos it never got wet or windy at WO ;)
We get some protection there though - and the old dears at the tuck shop in Willy used to always run out of rolls at 1/4 time as they'd tell me.

Clearly the concept of "making more" never entered their consideration.

I'd just be happy to see football at WO again. It may drag out some of the old fans who don't like the new iteration of AFL football to watch the occasional game.

[LostDoggy]

Great news.
Imagine if the GF was played as a curtain raiser to the AFL GF? Then imagine playing the U18s GF to start the day? It would be an awesome full day of footy to finish off the season........
I guess I can dream.

[bornadog]

Yeah, cos it never got wet or windy at WO ;)

Better check with the old fisherman to see which way the wind will be blowing in the last:D

[chef]

Great news, hopefully they're called the Western Bulldogs.

[immortalmike]

Good news, hopefully we can afford it long term.
Quite partial to the Footscray Bulldogs playing out of the Western Oval myself but with the current admin can't see the name being anything other than Western. Might be a chance to continue to mend fences with our past, but the Western branding (:rolleyes:) seems more important even in a suburban competition with two Western Suburbs teams... but to each their own I guess.

[GVGjr]

I'm not yet convinced this is great news for the club. It's terrifically symbolic but will it really be that much an improvement on what we already had in place?

This is a significant cost and I will be interested to hear how they will cover it.
Coaches, top up players and an upgrade to the WO to make it VFL ready is just some of challenges that need to be met.

If we can't fund things like enough GPS vests now then our finances will be stretched that much further in 2014.

I get why so many see it as a positive but we need to be sure that they club can get this right and have an understanding that just putting the younger VFL guys into a red, white and blue playing jumper won't necessarily make it a success. There is a lot more to it than that.

Personally I would prefer that we don't play home games at the WO and I would recommend that we don't call the VFL side Footscray.

[w3design]

Best news since the WO redevelopment.

This would be incredible if we get games played at WO, too.
Agree totally the best news this year. Can't wait to watch games back at the Whitten oval.

[Remi Moses]

Has to be an improvement on player development.
Totally untenable when you have an affiliate's objective is to win games ( fair enough)and the. Clubs is to win games.The financial aspect is a question that needs to be answered.

[w3design]

I agree that this would be part of their thinking - twelve months now to try to offset as much of the financial cost as possible and to build the financial plan to ensure we can sustain a VFL team into the future.

I have a feeling the AFL have come to terms they made a mistake getting rid of the 2nd's comp and will have to help fund the new teams Richmond are going alone too. If they want a even comp they need to give all teams the same tools to get the job done.

[Remi Moses]

Can't see how it's not a positive?
Obviously the cost is a question that needs to be addressed.
Williamstown's objective is to win football games( fair enough) and our objective is to develop our players and experiment with positions and game styles.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I'm not yet convinced this is great news for the club. It's terrifically symbolic but will it really be that much an improvement on what we already had in place?

This is a significant cost and I will be interested to hear how they will cover it.
Coaches, top up players and an upgrade to the WO to make it VFL ready is just some of challenges that need to be met.

If we can't fund things like enough GPS vests now then our finances will be stretched that much further in 2014.

I get why so many see it as a positive but we need to be sure that they club can get this right and have an understanding that just putting the younger VFL guys into a red, white and blue playing jumper won't necessarily make it a success. There is a lot more to it than that.

Personally I would prefer that we don't play home games at the WO and I would recommend that we don't call the VFL side Footscray.
This was a hasty decision and totally unnecessary. For a club like the WB that continues to carry a heavy debt burden it would seem illogical to commit to an additional $400,000 projected to field a stand alone VFL side.My understanding is that Williamstown was unhappy with this year's cooperation from the WB and had made it's own decision to have it's own stand alone club in 2014. We would be better off becoming more competitive financially to build up our playing stock given the poor quality of the current playing list.

[jeemak]

We get some protection there though - and the old dears at the tuck shop in Willy used to always run out of rolls at 1/4 time as they'd tell me.

Clearly the concept of "making more" never entered their consideration.

I'd just be happy to see football at WO again. It may drag out some of the old fans who don't like the new iteration of AFL football to watch the occasional game.

I'll probably drag my father down for a few games, for sure.


Great move for the club. I can't see it detracting from our senior team attendances though, as it's likely our twos will be pretty ordinary as well meanign we'll have two unwatchable teams!

[angelopetraglia]

Great news, best way to grow your own talent.

[bornadog]

I'm not yet convinced this is great news for the club. It's terrifically symbolic but will it really be that much an improvement on what we already had in place?

This is a significant cost and I will be interested to hear how they will cover it.
Coaches, top up players and an upgrade to the WO to make it VFL ready is just some of challenges that need to be met.

If we can't fund things like enough GPS vests now then our finances will be stretched that much further in 2014.

I get why so many see it as a positive but we need to be sure that they club can get this right and have an understanding that just putting the younger VFL guys into a red, white and blue playing jumper won't necessarily make it a success. There is a lot more to it than that.

Personally I would prefer that we don't play home games at the WO and I would recommend that we don't call the VFL side Footscray.

Forgetting the financial aspect, don't you agree this will suit the development of our young players more than the current arrangement.

[jeemak]

I'm not yet convinced this is great news for the club. It's terrifically symbolic but will it really be that much an improvement on what we already had in place?

This is a significant cost and I will be interested to hear how they will cover it.
Coaches, top up players and an upgrade to the WO to make it VFL ready is just some of challenges that need to be met.

If we can't fund things like enough GPS vests now then our finances will be stretched that much further in 2014.

I get why so many see it as a positive but we need to be sure that they club can get this right and have an understanding that just putting the younger VFL guys into a red, white and blue playing jumper won't necessarily make it a success. There is a lot more to it than that.

Personally I would prefer that we don't play home games at the WO and I would recommend that we don't call the VFL side Footscray.

I haven't done the research, so take the following with a grain of salt of course. But, wouldn't we already contrbute a significant amount towards making Williamstown viable as a combined club? Surely a large amount of Bulldogs resources would contribute to running the affiliation.

Considering the 16 listed players, plus the rookies who don't make the weekly senior team and already train with the club on certain days throughout the week you would have to assume that our club is predominantly run on a fixed cost basis throughout the week. Apart from game day resources, from an operational perspective there's not gonig to be a great impact on the club going alone.

If we pull the resources we put in to the affiliation, and channel them towards our stand alone team then I'm not sure the gap to keep our stand alone team is going to be as large as we might think. I can't imagine our board deciding to do it if it was.

[GVGjr]

Forgetting the financial aspect, don't you agree this will suit the development of our young players more than the current arrangement.

I don't buy this notion that players couldn't be developed correctly within the current arrangement.
We got to 3 Preliminary Finals with the current arrangement and I don't for one second think we didn't go further because of not fielding our own VFL side.

Having young players competing for spots should be seen as a positive not a negative.

We have a very limited budget and I'm not convinced having control of the VFL is the wisest way of spending our money.

[GVGjr]

I haven't done the research, so take the following with a grain of salt of course. But, wouldn't we already contrbute a significant amount towards making Williamstown viable as a combined club? Surely a large amount of Bulldogs resources would contribute to running the affiliation.



Williamstown consistently stumped up money to help us fund rookies and it's doubtful that Picken would be with us if they didn't.

Yes we contribute to running costs of Williamstown but I think the $500,000 extra a season that has been quoted to run our own VFL side is actually on the low side.




If we pull the resources we put in to the affiliation, and channel them towards our stand alone team then I'm not sure the gap to keep our stand alone team is going to be as large as we might think. I can't imagine our board deciding to do it if it was.

I'm not sure the decision was ours to make after our conduct this season.

We still have some of our resources trying to finish the Edgewater project that is already well over time and budget and I'm not confident this is not another significant project that the club will struggle to deliver on.

[jeemak]

Williamstown consistently stumped up money to help us fund rookies and it's doubtful that Picken would be with us if they didn't.

Yes we contribute to running costs of Williamstown but I think the $500,000 extra a season that has been quoted to run our own VFL side is actually on the low side.

I'm not sure the decision was ours to make after our conduct this season.

We still have some of our resources trying to finish the Edgewater project that is already well over time and budget and I'm not confident this is not another significant project that the club will struggle to deliver on.

Understand that Picken was funded by Williamstown initially, though I wasn't aware of any others after that. Happy to be proven wrong.

Do you think the board had its hand forced in to making this decision? Appreciate the relationship with Williamstown was deteriorating, but did the club attempt to align itself with another club, or have all of the other VFL clubs had enough of us, and other AFL clubs?

[GVGjr]

Understand that Picken was funded by Williamstown initially, though I wasn't aware of any others after that. Happy to be proven wrong.



Patrick Rose was another




Do you think the board had its hand forced in to making this decision? Appreciate the relationship with Williamstown was deteriorating, but did the club attempt to align itself with another club, or have all of the other VFL clubs had enough of us, and other AFL clubs?


I'm not sure but I can't see how we could have aligned ourselves with another club. Until this year and on face value at least the relationship was working.

[Hotdog60]

Do you think that Macca was after this when he arrived and he has been working he's way to get this to happen.

[azabob]

Do you think that Macca was after this when he arrived and he has been working he's way to get this to happen.

Yes. He didn't worry too much about the relationship, he did what was best for the bulldogs and our players.

[GVGjr]

Yes. He didn't worry too much about the relationship, he did what was best for the bulldogs and our players.

That didn't actually work like a treat

If McCartney treated a Bulldogs VFL side like he treated Williamstown this season by resting so many players it would hardly be worth watching them.

[azabob]

That didn't actually work like a treat

If McCartney treated a Bulldogs VFL side like he treated Williamstown this season by resting so many players it would hardly be worth watching them.

Totally agree with you, we did the wrong thing by Williamstown. Having said that I do believe Williamstown progressed further due to them playing Williamstown listed players rather than our younger players.

[Hotdog60]

That didn't actually work like a treat

If McCartney treated a Bulldogs VFL side like he treated Williamstown this season by resting so many players it would hardly be worth watching them.

If we had our own reserve side would he still have rested those players. I suppose I'm insinuating that Macca was working to get the same setup as Geelong.

[LostDoggy]

Who gets Peter German in 2014?

[Greystache]

Who gets Peter German in 2014?

He's a Bulldogs employee, assuming he's wanted in 2014 he'll be coaching the Bulldogs VFL team.

[bornadog]

Totally agree with you, we did the wrong thing by Williamstown. Having said that I do believe Williamstown progressed further due to them playing Williamstown listed players rather than our younger players.

Williamstown weren't happy last year when they went into a Grand Final with a lot of young Bulldog players against Port who were fielding an older side. Willi thought they could have done better with less Bulldogs players. They tried that in the second half of this season and ended up winning 8 in a row, until losing to Port again.

I think both clubs are happy to part ways.

[Remi Moses]

I'd imagine some players didn't play due to the rigours of AfL .
Were Willy upset that they had to many " Bulldog " listed players in last years GF?
Clearly the objectives of aligned clubs and their partner are poles apart.
Got a feeling the success of the club on the other side of the West Gate is gnawing away with some .

[Remi Moses]

Williamstown weren't happy last year when they went into a Grand Final with a lot of young Bulldog players against Port who were fielding an older side. Willi thought they could have done better with less Bulldogs players. They tried that in the second half of this season and ended up winning 8 in a row, until losing to Port again.

I think both clubs are happy to part ways.

Spot on.

[GVGjr]

If we had our own reserve side would he still have rested those players. I suppose I'm insinuating that Macca was working to get the same setup as Geelong.

I think you are giving him too much credit. It's not his decision to make.

[GVGjr]

He's a Bulldogs employee, assuming he's wanted in 2014 he'll be coaching the Bulldogs VFL team.

We should be getting Adam Potter on board next season and handing him the job in 2014.

[boydogs]

I think you are giving him too much credit. It's not his decision to make.

Ever seen Moneyball?

[Twodogs]

Yeah, cos it never got wet or windy at WO ;)


There's a big difference between Port Gellibrand near the sea with the wind coming in straight off the Antarctic and Western Oval though.


I can rememeber doing trade subjects at Willy Tech and it was the coldest I've ever been. On the upside I discovered the great joy of how much a fried dimsim could warm you up though.

[GVGjr]

Ever seen Moneyball?

Read the book a long while back and saw the movie when it came out.

[Mofra]

I don't buy this notion that players couldn't be developed correctly within the current arrangement.
We got to 3 Preliminary Finals with the current arrangement and I don't for one second think we didn't go further because of not fielding our own VFL side.

Having young players competing for spots should be seen as a positive not a negative.

We have a very limited budget and I'm not convinced having control of the VFL is the wisest way of spending our money.
4 of the last 5 grand finals have been won by teams with a stand alone reserves side.

It's not that they can't be developed, it's that they could be developed better and that's what a standalone VFL team indicates IMO.

[GVGjr]

4 of the last 5 grand finals have been won by teams with a stand alone reserves side.

It's not that they can't be developed, it's that they could be developed better and that's what a standalone VFL team indicates IMO.

By cashed up clubs who have everything else already in place?

If it can be done right of course it could be a positive but if due to budget constraints we can't attract to the sort of top up players we need to make us competitive I can see a situation where we are in the finals of the AFL but not having our VFL side playing when we need to get some game time into players.

[azabob]

We should be getting Adam Potter on board next season and handing him the job in 2014.

He is back working with Williamstown next season, so we have another chance to look at him.

[boydogs]

Read the book a long while back and saw the movie when it came out.

Think of McCartney as the recruiter who traded the guy the coach was playing on first base.

[GVGjr]

Think of McCartney as the recruiter who traded the guy the coach was playing on first base.

Did you read the book or see the movie?

[boydogs]

Did you read the book or see the movie?

Movie

[GVGjr]

Movie

Thought so. The point you are making from the movie isn't consistent with the more accurate book.
The Carlos Pena trade was actually part of a very complicated three team deal involving a number of players and it wasn't to make room for Scott Hatteburg and exercise control of the manager as the movie portrayed.

Back to McCartney, I think he has made an error in the way he approached the Williamstown relationship this season and I certainly don't see it as part of a Moneyball approach or to intentionally break the relationship. I think he just wanted them to accept it and it has simply backfired.

[boydogs]

Thought so.

I did say 'seen' ;)


Back to McCartney, I think he has made an error in the way he approached the Williamstown relationship this season and I certainly don't see it as part of a Moneyball approach or to intentionally break the relationship. I think he just wanted them to accept it and it has simply backfired.

Intentional or not, I don't think you could call the club having their own VFL side backfiring.


If McCartney treated a Bulldogs VFL side like he treated Williamstown this season by resting so many players it would hardly be worth watching them.

This seems to me why you are so negative about this compared to other posters. My interest in Williamstown is secondary in every way, yet you seem to value them outside of their contribution to developing WB players.

[GVGjr]

Intentional or not, I don't think you could call the club having their own VFL side backfiring.



If it can't be funded properly I think you can. It's a lot bigger project than just putting our VFL players into a red, white and blue jumper.
What has the club done recently that gives you the confidence they will do it well? The Darwin and Canberra ventures or the Edgewater project that is something like 12 months and counting behind?

Do we have the resources to do this right?




This seems to me why you are so negative about this compared to other posters. My interest in Williamstown is secondary in every way, yet you seem to value them outside of their contribution to developing WB players.

I'm not negative to it but I have my doubts we will do it right and I think it needs to be done right. As I have previously stated, if we can't fund sufficient GPS vests for our team now what else do we have to drop to put this side together?
How deep are you looking at this?
At the moment to me it's symbolic win but very light on detail and if we will make a success of it.

I'm also out of synch with some others because I'm looking a bit deeper than just thinking games at the WO will make us into a better side.

Whilst your interest in Williamstown might be secondary I tend to think it's important for the club to honor contracts and commitments and they should not simply be walked away from. If a sponsor walked away from us we would all be as dirty as with them but for some reason we don't seem to mind if the club picks and chooses which commitments it will honor.

[Remi Moses]

Both parties agreed on the split,was reported in both Daily's.

[w3design]

We should be getting Adam Potter on board next season and handing him the job in 2014.

Potter would be ok, but personally given his wider experience, and performance at VFL senior level with Werribee this year, my vote is for Scotty West as 2014 VFL coach.

I also disagree with calling our VFL side W.Bs. With over a hundred years of tradition in the VFA/VFL as Footscray, that should be the ONLY option for the new entities name, especially if it is to play out of the Whitten Oval, which surely is the spiritual home of the Footscray Football Club.
If the club genuinely wants to retrieve some of it's lost ground, and disenfranchised traditional membership base, it should use this opportunity to re-energise it's original supporter base.

The best way for the Doggies, and the other clubs being financially choked to death by their arrangement with the company that manages the Docklands Stadium, would be for the AFL to use some of the $millions they are getting from their broadcasting rights to buy the contract out early, and giving all Docklands based clubs an equal deal on income/costs, and remove the present gross inequities in the arrangements.

Perhaps if the AFL spent more $'s on defending it's constituent clubs, and less on paying exorbitant bonuses/salaries to A.D. and his cohorts, and wasting money on crap like"anti homophobia" adds, and similar garbage, perhaps they would have more funds available for the equalization budget, and debt reduction for the struggling/disadvantaged clubs. I would have though the AFL Commission's reason to exist was to defend and develop the competition and teams rather than social engineering, and 'political correctness'.

[Ghost Dog]

I would pay extra membership to see a Footscray VFL team. Trouble is, I might decide not to go to many AFL games and begin to like the second tier team more! I just like the local feel of VFL sometimes.

[Mofra]

By cashed up clubs who have everything else already in place?

If it can be done right of course it could be a positive but if due to budget constraints we can't attract to the sort of top up players we need to make us competitive I can see a situation where we are in the finals of the AFL but not having our VFL side playing when we need to get some game time into players.
Everything else in place includes a stan-alone VFL side it seems.
Development of players is an important aspect of getting our system right and there is no doubt that removing the competing priority of Williamstown's interest will help our developing types.

[GVGjr]

Everything else in place includes a stan-alone VFL side it seems.
.

So we have our sports science team on the cutting edge with sufficient technology and resources already in place? If so, then why didn't we make this move earlier?

To me it's like a cousin crying poor all the time whinging that they are struggling to manage with the basics of life but then rocking up for a visit with a new car.
You don't begrudge them having a new car but you wonder what else they will now have to go without to pay for it.

I think we could spend some money in a more productive way and this move seems premature and out of sequence of what we should be working towards.

What I don't want to hear in the next 12 months is that we are a mile behind other clubs in terms of sports technology spending and using that as a reason why we are struggling to keep up with other clubs.

The Williamstown alignment was working pretty well. Of course it wasn't 100% but our players were given the opportunity to play. I certainly don't view it as a reason why we haven't performed well and why some of our players struggle with the basics.

[ledge]

So we have our sports science team on the cutting edge with sufficient technology and resources already in place? If so, then why didn't we make this move earlier?

To me it's like a cousin crying poor all the time whinging that they are struggling to manage with the basics of life but then rocking up for a visit with a new car.
You don't begrudge them having a new car but you wonder what else they will now have to go without to pay for it.

I think we could spend some money in a more productive way and this move seems premature and out of sequence of what we should be working towards.

What I don't want to hear in the next 12 months is that we are a mile behind other clubs in terms of sports technology spending and using that as a reason why we are struggling to keep up with other clubs.

The Williamstown alignment was working pretty well. Of course it wasn't 100% but our players were given the opportunity to play. I certainly don't view it as a reason why we haven't performed well and why some of our players struggle with the basics.

What surprised me a few years ago was we were having to pick players straight from VFL reserves into our AFL side,which isn't exactly a good indication of them playing well having to step up 2 grades in a week.
If we go alone that shouldn't be a problem anymore.

[GVGjr]

What surprised me a few years ago was we were having to pick players straight from VFL reserves into our AFL side,which isn't exactly a good indication of them playing well having to step up 2 grades in a week.
If we go alone that shouldn't be a problem anymore.

Which players went from he reserves in the VFL to the AFL Ledge?
Ones coming back from injury?

[chef]

Which players went from he reserves in the VFL to the AFL Ledge?
Ones coming back from injury?

Didn't Harbrow for his debut?

[Remi Moses]

What surprised me a few years ago was we were having to pick players straight from VFL reserves into our AFL side,which isn't exactly a good indication of them playing well having to step up 2 grades in a week.
If we go alone that shouldn't be a problem anymore.

Having players play VFL reserves cannot be beneficial.
Love to know how many times posters have been frustrated that the likes of Hill playing VFL Seconds instead of in the ones!I get the financial aspect, but it's beneficial having a stand alone teams.Maybe they should look at top WRFL players getting a gig on the VFL List?

[ledge]

Which players went from he reserves in the VFL to the AFL Ledge?
Ones coming back from injury?

Stephen TIller was one and it wasn't injury it was more that you could only play So
Many AFL players in a team, I think last year they changed the rule

[GVGjr]

Stephen TIller was one and it wasn't injury it was more that you could only play So
Many AFL players in a team, I think last year they changed the rule

For that to happen we obviously picked the wrong guys ahead of him.

[ledge]

For that to happen we obviously picked the wrong guys ahead of him.

I think it was a bit more complicated than that more that the VFL club thought that they had a better player in his position or that they had the maximum dogs players in the team that day.
I am not sure but we might have been with Werribee then

[boydogs]

I think it was a bit more complicated than that more that the VFL club thought that they had a better player in his position

I reckon I could find 20 posts on here from posters frustrated with players being used in the wrong position in the VFL without even trying.

[ledge]

I reckon I could find 20 posts on here from posters frustrated with players being used in the wrong position in the VFL without even trying.

Being aligned brings a lot of problems with it.

[GVGjr]

I reckon I could find 20 posts on here from posters frustrated with players being used in the wrong position in the VFL without even trying.

I used to read about how bad the likes of Panos were being treated when Little was the primary forward. The part I found interesting was that if Panos had have been promoted he would have had to play alongside of Barry Hall in a very similar role.

I've seen very little over the last few seasons to suggest that players progress was being hampered by competition for spots. The best performed players get picked the vast majority of the times and a lot of players who get promoted to the AFL side play in a different position to where they have been performing in the VFL.

Players have to be versatile and adaptable and the alignment hasn't changed that.

[ledge]

I used to read about how bad the likes of Panos were being treated when Little was the primary forward. The part I found interesting was that if Panos had have been promoted he would have had to play alongside of Barry Hall in a very similar role.

I've seen very little over the last few seasons to suggest that players progress was being hampered by competition for spots. The best performed players get picked the vast majority of the times and a lot of players who get promoted to the AFL side play in a different position to where they have been performing in the VFL.

Players have to be versatile and adaptable and the alignment hasn't changed that.

Being on your own means every player can play VFL seniors there is no cap though doesn't it?

[bornadog]

I used to read about how bad the likes of Panos were being treated when Little was the primary forward. The part I found interesting was that if Panos had have been promoted he would have had to play alongside of Barry Hall in a very similar role.

I've seen very little over the last few seasons to suggest that players progress was being hampered by competition for spots. The best performed players get picked the vast majority of the times and a lot of players who get promoted to the AFL side play in a different position to where they have been performing in the VFL.

Players have to be versatile and adaptable and the alignment hasn't changed that.

Do you think Williamstown is happy with the alignment?

[GVGjr]

Do you think Williamstown is happy with the alignment?

Things started to unravel this year but before that I believe they thought it was working well.

[Remi Moses]

Interesting hearing Lindsay Gilbee's endorsement of a stand alone club.
Basically said that with the coast of drafting a player, it's important that they're coached into the style the head coach wants.

[azabob]

Do you think Williamstown is happy with the alignment?


Things started to unravel this year but before that I believe they thought it was working well.


Can anyone recall why our alignment with Werribee ended?

It appears a common theme though with all AFL and VFL alignments every few years the swap around.

[GVGjr]

Interesting hearing Lindsay Gilbee's endorsement of a stand alone club.
Basically said that with the coast of drafting a player, it's important that they're coached into the style the head coach wants.

In an ideal scenario a return to a full AFL reserves competition would be great but the point I'm making is there a lot of things I'd would have fixed before splitting with Williamstown.

[LostDoggy]

Very pleased to hear we were doing this, joining the ranks of Collingwood, Geelong and Essendon.

But like some my second thought was.....how? we're not the most financial thriving club around, I hope its sustainable.

[bornadog]

Stand alone Geelong too good for Port.

[azabob]

Stand alone Geelong too good for Port.

Shouldn't that read stand alone Geelong too good for stand alone Port? ;)

[Mofra]

So we have our sports science team on the cutting edge with sufficient technology and resources already in place? If so, then why didn't we make this move earlier?

To me it's like a cousin crying poor all the time whinging that they are struggling to manage with the basics of life but then rocking up for a visit with a new car.
You don't begrudge them having a new car but you wonder what else they will now have to go without to pay for it.

I think we could spend some money in a more productive way and this move seems premature and out of sequence of what we should be working towards.

What I don't want to hear in the next 12 months is that we are a mile behind other clubs in terms of sports technology spending and using that as a reason why we are struggling to keep up with other clubs.

The Williamstown alignment was working pretty well. Of course it wasn't 100% but our players were given the opportunity to play. I certainly don't view it as a reason why we haven't performed well and why some of our players struggle with the basics.
The additional cost to us of having a VFL club is the equivalent of one high paid sports performance manager or trainer (ie teh Weapon's salary) - the bang for buck of controlling our player development is much greater with the stand alone VFL club IMO.

We're going around in circles, but the evidence suggests a stand alone VFL club offers a better opportunity for player development for only a modest increase in football department spend.

It's a decision that seems to make sense in every way we look at it.

[HOSE B ROMERO]

Professional move by Smorgan and co. Being called Footscray and playing at the Western Oval is nice and sentimental but this decision goes beyond that. Good debate though. Looking forward to reviving the early 19th century rivalry between Footscray and Williamstown where the supporters would stone each other after a game... ahh those were the days.

[Rocco Jones]

How many Jets/TAC players can you have playing VFL each week?

[Greystache]

How many Jets/TAC players can you have playing VFL each week?

1, they're the 23rd man in the team, effectively an extra player.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

The additional cost to us of having a VFL club is the equivalent of one high paid sports performance manager or trainer (ie teh Weapon's salary) - the bang for buck of controlling our player development is much greater with the stand alone VFL club IMO.

We're going around in circles, but the evidence suggests a stand alone VFL club offers a better opportunity for player development for only a modest increase in football department spend.

It's a decision that seems to make sense in every way we look at it.

Are you forgetting we carry a 4 million dollar debt plus an annual 2 million dollar drip feed from the AFL and a diminishing membership base?

[Bulldog4life]

Didn't Harbrow for his debut?

Yes if I remember correctly straight from the VFL reserves to the Western Bulldogs. I think it is a great move by the Club. Before long all the Vic Clubs will go down this track. If we don't do it we will be left behind.

[Mantis]

The additional cost to us of having a VFL club is the equivalent of one high paid sports performance manager or trainer (ie teh Weapon's salary) - the bang for buck of controlling our player development is much greater with the stand alone VFL club IMO.

I have skipped thru aheap of this thread, but I haven't come across the additional costs to the club in the posts I have seen- can you share it with me?

[Rocco Jones]

1, they're the 23rd man in the team, effectively an extra player.

Yep, I understand that. I meant can we get additional Jets to make up the numbers? I know Willi 2nds had 5 Jets playing in a final because they were struggling for numbers.

Just thinking how do we get to 23 each week in 2014.

We have 46 listed players + Goodes if he stays on in Welfare role + at least 1 Jet every week.

Perhaps a program where we guarantee 1 of our VFL players gets a rookie spot at year's end? Not sure what other stand alone clubs do and how much they pay their top-ups. Anybody have an idea of the financial hits aspiring non-AFL listed players will take to play at highest possible level?

[LostDoggy]

Not sure about VFL, but the WAFL salary cap is a touch over 200k pa.

[Mofra]

Are you forgetting we carry a 4 million dollar debt plus an annual 2 million dollar drip feed from the AFL and a diminishing membership base?
Yes I must have, because mentioning a high return for lower cost (ie beneficial targeted spending) is very much anti-economic efficiancy

All clubs carry debt in some degree or another, be it good or bad debt (I assume most people on woof will at least know the difference).

I also assume most people realise that TV rights are the biggest single factor that underwrite every AFL club.
We (amongst some others) receive a dividend as special consideration to allow the AFL to maximise media & stadium revenue without the need for equal distribution of these capabilities.

Our football department spend, whilst miniscule, is still at $14.7m. If the additional $350k figure is correct, we gain full control of player development and reignite a link to our traditional home and offer fans the opportunity to see live football almost every week (short of flying interstate) for an additonal 2.4% spend on our football department.

Yes, 2.4%.

Given the success of teams with stand-alone reserves sides in the VFL and such a small increase in football department spend (which may well be partially off-set by revenue generated on gameday at WO anyway) I can't see this is somehow seen as an economically irresponsible move by the club when a more holistic view of the proposal is taken.

[Maddog37]

Having read all the different posts I personally am in favour of it. Our core business is producing AFL quality players and this can only help in that regard.

[GVGjr]

Next season the agreement now is that we can only have a maximum of 12 players in the Williamstown senior side. Williamstown will very much be looking towards developing their own players for 2014.

[ledge]

Next season the agreement now is that we can only have a maximum of 12 players in the Williamstown senior side. Williamstown will very much be looking towards developing their own players for 2014.

Is that the new VFL rule or a williamstown / dogs rule?

[GVGjr]

Is that the new VFL rule or a williamstown / dogs rule?

It's what Williamstown wanted and what we agreed to,

[bornadog]

It's what Williamstown wanted and what we agreed to,

Well that makes it harder for us to develop players next year.

[GVGjr]

Well that makes it harder for us to develop players next year.

In my opinion it certainly does but given how we rested so many players this year "as part of their development" does it really set us back?. It's one of the consequences though of not being a good partner this year.
I believe the other option was for both sides to go it alone next year but I doubt we could have got it up and running by then.

[Remi Moses]

I'd imagine the medical dept would have the final say on a player being "rested"
Be nice to have our own side next season .
Going to be interesting seeing whether our new draftees are playing Willuamstown Two's.

[Bulldog4life]

In my opinion it certainly does but given how we rested so many players this year "as part of their development" does it really set us back?. It's one of the consequences though of not being a good partner this year.
I believe the other option was for both sides to go it alone next year but I doubt we could have got it up and running by then.

Bit like a couple deciding on getting a divorce but staying an extra year together. Not good. Makes for a testier relationship. A clean break would have been ideal.

[boydogs]

Bit like a couple deciding on getting a divorce but staying an extra year together. Not good. Makes for a testier relationship. A clean break would have been ideal.

Lol, nice analogy. A divorce where the Father is taking some of the kids in a year's time so the Mother is going to give preferential treatment to the others ;)

[Ghost Dog]

Having read all the different posts I personally am in favour of it. Our core business is producing AFL quality players and this can only help in that regard.

How are we going to afford this?

[Mofra]

How are we going to afford this?
A 2.4% increase in our football department? It shouldn't present too much of an impasse

[Ghost Dog]

A 2.4% increase in our football department? It shouldn't present too much of an impasse

I'm a fan of the idea. However. Are you including any upgrades needed at Whitten Oval?
Where did you get this 2.4% figure from?

[chef]

So are we going to fence the WO or put these games on for nothing?

Or are we going to play elsewhere?

[azabob]

I'm a fan of the idea. However. Are you including any upgrades needed at Whitten Oval?
Where did you get this 2.4% figure from?

Refer post 102 as a starting point.

[1eyedog]

Do you reckon if we call the VFL team Footscray that eventually the AFL team will be called Footscray again. Would the VFL team maybe just be called WB.

Only if Dimma gets his way.

[Cyberdoggie]

So are we going to fence the WO or put these games on for nothing?

Or are we going to play elsewhere?

I thought it was a vfl requirements to have pay entrance fees.

Not 100% sure on this, also i think Ballarat has gold coin donation.

[China Dog]

It will be interesting to see who is appointed coach of the 2014 VFL team and which players are approached to play for the side. From a coaching perspective the following might be candidates:

Peter German - Williamstown
Scott West - Werribee
Brent Prismall - Williamstown (maybe playing coach)
Daniel Giansiracusa - Western Bulldogs (maybe playing coach)

From a player perspective I would think that Prismall will join us from Williamstown and possibly Willie Wheeler. I would like to see us pick up some other young VFL players who could possibly be considered as AFL draft candidates in the future. Maybe Gia and Lindsay Gilbee might play for the VFL side to give it some experience.

[Remi Moses]

Someone on the current panel I would reckon.
Rohan Smith would be a show also.
Just can't wait until it happens

[dog town]

Is the mandatory 12 bulldogs in the Williamstown side a huge issue? Thats 34 playing AFL or VFL seniors every week. When you consider the amount of injuries a club usually carries it is really only going to be a handful playing in the 2s every week. Not ideal but not a massive problem. Generally it will become obvious as the season progresses that 1 or 2 are not up to it anyway. I only see it being a big issue if we are having an exceptional run with injuries.

IMO having our own side will be the most important thing we have done in a long time. I couldn't imagine a worse situation than having another organisation coaching your players on a weekly basis. It staggers me that clubs do it to be honest.

[GVGjr]

Is the mandatory 12 bulldogs in the Williamstown side a huge issue?

Its not a bad thing but it does mean that form won't necessarily dictate who plays. Going into having our own side in 12 months time I think it does hurt us a bit.

[Remi Moses]

Its not a bad thing but it does mean that form won't necessarily dictate who plays. Going into having our own side in 12 months time I think it does hurt us a bit.

I'm not sure what you mean?

[GVGjr]

I'm not sure what you mean?

Some players will play in the development side even if their form is good. Not ideal when we have to field our own side in 12 months

[Ghost Dog]

To date, with my membership, I have received a free pass to Willy games. Really enjoy watching Willy and following the development of players. If you give members free passes to Footscray Football club games for a year, will they start to not turn up to Etihad? Are we going to weaken our brand?

[Remi Moses]

Some players will play in the development side even if their form is good. Not ideal when we have to field our own side in 12 months

Agree.

[The Underdog]

To date, with my membership, I have received a free pass to Willy games. Really enjoy watching Willy and following the development of players. If you give members free passes to Footscray Football club games for a year, will they start to not turn up to Etihad? Are we going to weaken our brand?

I'd hope it might have the opposite effect. Giving people something on a more personal/local level to identify with and strengthen ties with the senior team. Also players will be up and down between the two so it helps the ties between them also. It may not work that way but I don't think it'll detract at all

[Remi Moses]

To date, with my membership, I have received a free pass to Willy games. Really enjoy watching Willy and following the development of players. If you give members free passes to Footscray Football club games for a year, will they start to not turn up to Etihad? Are we going to weaken our brand?

Wouldn't think so. The general consensus is we're going to struggle for a season or two, and seeing the young draftees giving some hope for the future is what is enjoyed .
VFL crowds with the exception of Port have dwindled significantly over the years

[China Dog]

Williamstown currently has a strong link with the Western Jets. I hope that this transfers to us when our VFL side starts in 2014. It would be a great addition to our Heartland campaign and get us being relevant again to the western community.

[AndrewP6]

Williamstown currently has a strong link with the Western Jets. I hope that this transfers to us when our VFL side starts in 2014. It would be a great addition to our Heartland campaign and get us being relevant again to the western community.

Surely Williamstown would want to maintain that link?

[Hotdog60]

Due to it being a quite Bulldogs weekend I thought I would bump this thread.

Not interested in the financial ins and outs that have been covered in previous posts or were it will in be held but more on the make up of the side.

Who will Coach?
Who will make up the side?

Take a punt and who will line up in round one of the VFL.

I would like to see German as coach

Gia and Cross as assistant playing coaches.

F: Gia, Grant, Cordy
HF: Vespa, RedPath, Hunter
C: Howard, Prudden, Jong
HB: Greenwood, Austin, Tutt
B: Pearce, Markovic, Fletcher
Ruck: Cambell,? ,Cross

Of course this list may have outside players and we have to replace Gia and Cross in the senior side plus some of these maybe delisted. I don't know enough local footballers to fit them in.

Maybe a stupid post but what do we think.

[bulldogtragic]

Due to it being a quite Bulldogs weekend I thought I would bump this thread.

Not interested in the financial ins and outs that have been covered in previous posts or were it will in be held but more on the make up of the side.

Who will Coach?
Who will make up the side?

Take a punt and who will line up in round one of the VFL.

I would like to see German as coach

Gia and Cross as assistant playing coaches.

F: Gia, Grant, Cordy
HF: Vespa, RedPath, Hunter
C: Howard, Prudden, Jong
HB: Greenwood, Austin, Tutt
B: Pearce, Markovic, Fletcher
Ruck: Cambell,? ,Cross

Of course this list may have outside players and we have to replace Gia and Cross in the senior side plus some of these maybe delisted. I don't know enough local footballers to fit them in.

Maybe a stupid post but what do we think.
I'd hope a few of your list wold be moved on. Replaced with fresh blood.

[Hotdog60]

I'd hope a few of your list wold be moved on. Replaced with fresh blood.

Maybe those few might make up the numbers if not on a list.

[bornadog]

Interesting Peter Gordon has been talking about substantial funding required to get Whitten Oval ready to host VFL games. At this stage its not a done deal we will play games there until the dollars are sorted out.

I guess there are things like fencing, toilets, change rooms for the opposition, scoreboard, etc to be built.

[bulldogtragic]

Any word on if the Hyde street band is coming back :)

[ledge]

Any news on what we are calling this team ? Footscray?

[Eastdog]

Any news on what we are calling this team ? Footscray?

Still haven't heard anything about the team name but I remember a while back rumours that they new team could be called Footscray.

[bornadog]

Any news on what we are calling this team ? Footscray?

Board meeting later on in the year to determine the name.

[boydogs]

Of course this list may have outside players and we have to replace Gia and Cross in the senior side plus some of these maybe delisted.

Yeah, aside from list changes your side seems pretty right. The draftees from next year will be able to be slotted straight into the VFL seniors in place of whoever we get rid of, which will be good.

The interesting bits are the name, jumper, sponsors & home ground, which you didn't want to discuss :D

[LostDoggy]

Still haven't heard anything about the team name but I remember a while back rumours that they new team could be called Footscray.

It'd be nice, but in my view would be a backwards decision. We're the Western Bulldogs now, about time we embrace it.

[bulldogtragic]

It'd be nice, but in my view would be a backwards decision. We're the Western Bulldogs now, about time we embrace it.
Surely we can embrace the romance of a Footscray team at the WO.

[Hotdog60]

Yeah, aside from list changes your side seems pretty right. The draftees from next year will be able to be slotted straight into the VFL seniors in place of whoever we get rid of, which will be good.

The interesting bits are the name, jumper, sponsors & home ground, which you didn't want to discuss :D

I thought it had already been done before so is was leaning on a different track but that's fine. It's still good discussion.:)

[bornadog]

It'd be nice, but in my view would be a backwards decision. We're the Western Bulldogs now, about time we embrace it.

yep, there are so many kids born in 1997 (now 16 years old :eek:) who have never heard of Footscray.

[ledge]

I would love to see it called Footscray as it is our history and 90% of the museum is about Footscray and the reserves hopefully will be playing at the Whitten oval

[LostDoggy]

Surely we can embrace the romance of a Footscray team at the WO.

Romance vs. a cohesive brand for the football club.

Don't get me wrong, I grew up loving Footscray. I live in West Footscray. It hurt me as much as anybody else when we gave up our name. But it's done, it's a part of our history, just as much as the '89 fightback, and we need to stop wishing for a return to the past and embrace our future as the Western Bulldogs.

That's why I can't see us naming the VFL team Footscray. It would cause more angst than it would warm traditional hearts.

[boydogs]

Romance vs. a cohesive brand for the football club.

Don't get me wrong, I grew up loving Footscray. I live in West Footscray. It hurt me as much as anybody else when we gave up our name. But it's done, it's a part of our history, just as much as the '89 fightback, and we need to stop wishing for a return to the past and embrace our future as the Western Bulldogs.

That's why I can't see us naming the VFL team Footscray. It would cause more angst than it would warm traditional hearts.

I'm a fan of the Western Bulldogs name, but it's a bit rich to claim the west in the VFL when there are existing teams representing Williamstown & Werribee

[bulldogtragic]

I'm a fan of the Western Bulldogs name, but it's a bit rich to claim the west in the VFL when there are existing teams representing Williamstown & Werribee
Yeah, this. It's a better argument than mine.

[Twodogs]

I'm a fan of the Western Bulldogs name, but it's a bit rich to claim the west in the VFL when there are existing teams representing Williamstown & Werribee


Yep I agree. Naming the team Footscray also means that wE could build substantial rivalries with Willy and Werribee. Especially Willy-it'd be great to reignite a local derby after all these years with a club we had such a huge rivalry with before we joined the VFL. And Port Melbourne and Essendon.

If we play it right we could have our cake and eat it too.

[jeemak]

Yep I agree. Naming the team Footscray also means that wE could build substantial rivalries with Willy and Werribee. Especially Willy-it'd be great to reignite a local derby after all these years with a club we had such a huge rivalry with before we joined the VFL. And Port Melbourne and Essendon.

If we play it right we could have our cake and eat it too.

For mine it's about the positioning of the entire club, and how it's viewed across the broader AFL community rather than how it's viewed by a football community, whilst important to the fabric of the game, isn't necessarily a greater means to our end.

There's also a fair contradiction in trying to represent the greater West with our AFL brand, whilst trying our best to segregate certain suburbs of the West and create rivalries within the region through how we manage our feeder team's brand.

[LostDoggy]

I'm a fan of the Western Bulldogs name, but it's a bit rich to claim the west in the VFL when there are existing teams representing Williamstown & Werribee

Great point GG. All the guff posted previously focused on AFL marketing agendas, and ignored the fact its a different league.

Footscray it should be.

[Eastdog]

If the VFL team gets called Footscray is there a chance down the track that our senior AFL team could follow suit and could be called Footscray again. I think if we are going to keep the Western Bulldogs name for the AFL team the VFL team should be the same.

[chef]

If the VFL team gets called Footscray is there a chance down the track that our senior AFL team could follow suit and could be called Footscray again. I think if we are going to keep the Western Bulldogs name for the AFL team the VFL team should be the same.

No. Done to death and never going to happen.

[Remi Moses]

If the VFL team gets called Footscray is there a chance down the track that our senior AFL team could follow suit and could be called Footscray again. I think if we are going to keep the Western Bulldogs name for the AFL team the VFL team should be the same.

Please don't go down that track Easty.

[boydogs]

There's also a fair contradiction in trying to represent the greater West with our AFL brand, whilst trying our best to segregate certain suburbs of the West and create rivalries within the region through how we manage our feeder team's brand.

Agree, we should have 3 VFL teams! :D

[Remi Moses]

Right, settled.
Western Footscray Bulldogs

[Twodogs]

Right, settled.
Western Footscray Bulldogs


West Footscray Roosters might have something to say about that.

[strebla]

Just thinking outside the square here but Sunshine and Yarraville also had a long history in the. VFA so maybe we an re-launch one of those two sides instead. So for a boy from Braybrook where they played all I can say is GO THE MIGHTY CROWS!!!!!!.