2012 Player Awards

[Greystache]

With the club's presentation night on tomorrow night who do we think will take home the awards?

For me

B&F- Griffen

Most Improved- Mitch Wallis

Best first year player- Clay Smith

Best first year player is a real toss up for me, Tory Dickson has a strong claim for the award as well.

[KT31]

With the club's presentation night on tomorrow night who do we think will take home the awards?

For me

B&F- Griffen

Most Improved- Mitch Wallis

Best first year player- Clay Smith

Best first year player is a real toss up for me, Tory Dickson has a strong claim for the award as well.

Agree with the above with the exception I think Tory will take out the best first year player.
Boyd will be runner up in the Bf and not by much.

[azabob]

B&F- Boyd

Most Improved- Mitch Wallis

Best first year player- Tory Dickson

[LostDoggy]

Boyd wins the B&F pretty comfortably IMO.

[jeemak]

B&F - Boyd
Runner Up - Griff

And to be honest, that's how it should be rated. As much as Boyd's usage let us down this year, Griff's wasn't a lot better which was indicative of the pressure he was under the whole time.

I do find it completely laughable that Mike couldn't fit Boyd into his top 50 for the season. I don't normally beat this drum, but it's probably a good example of how irrelevant we are right now while we're at the bottom of the ladder. Boyd doesn't get marked as closely as other premium players, but he doesn't get free reign, and he still works his arse off for the amazing amount of posessions he accumulates.


Best first year - Tory Dickson. Great effort to make an impact in the hardest postion in modern football, which is forward pocket. Seriously, to be a continual multiple goal kicker in our side is a great effort, and an effort we don't give enough credit to guys like Gia and Higgins for. Well done Tory, great year adapting.

Most Improved - Mitch Wallis. Mike would do well to slot this guy in to his preseason top 50, in the high 40's. He's going to rip the competition apart next year, just you wait.

[Go_Dogs]

B&F Griffen, Boyd runner up for mine and Minson to round out 3rd spot.

Most Improved has to be Wallis, but Dahlhaus shouldn't be discounted either in my view.

Best first year player could be either of Smith or Dickson, Dickson probably slightly ahead but was a mature first year player. I'll go for Smith.

[Greystache]

B&F Griffen, Boyd runner up for mine and Minson to round out 3rd spot.

Most Improved has to be Wallis, but Dahlhaus shouldn't be discounted either in my view.

Best first year player could be either of Smith or Dickson, Dickson probably slightly ahead but was a mature first year player. I'll go for Smith.

I agree, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Roughead in contention as well given he was allocated a specific role by the coaching group outside his comfort zone and did it well. I think that sort of thing could be looked upon favourably by the coaching group.

[Greystache]

Boyd wins B&F, Griffen 2nd, Picken 3rd

Wallis most improved

Dickson best first year player.

[Greystache]

Interesting Minson not in the top 10 of the clubs B&F

[Greystache]

Charles Sutton Medal Top Ten

Matthew Boyd 168 votes

Ryan Griffen 150 votes

Liam Picken 110 votes

Luke Dahlhaus 91 votes

Mitch Wallis 88 votes

Robert Murphy 86 votes

Tom Liberatore 81 votes

Tory Dickson 60 votes

Daniel Cross 59 votes

Brian Lake 57 votes

[Remi Moses]

Surprised Young Libba's in there .

[bornadog]

Full list of awards

Western Bulldogs Best Williamstown Player: Tom Campbell

John Schultz Community Award: Lukas Markovic

Chris Grant Best 1st Year Player: Tory Dickson

Tony Liberatore Most Improved Player: Mitch Wallis

Brad Johnson Best Team Player: Liam Picken

Scott West Most Courageous: Daniel Cross

Gary Dempsey Medallist: Liam Picken (3rd Place)

Doug Hawkins Medallist: Ryan Griffen (2nd Place)

Charles Sutton Medallist: Matthew Boyd

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Interesting Minson not in the top 10 of the clubs B&F

That's ridiculous ..

.. Are we sure he's still actually staying?

[Remi Moses]

Surprised to be honest, that Minson's not top 10.
Milne was AA and didn't finish top 10.
Probably gets points deducted for being an annoying little p****.

[Greystache]

That's ridiculous ..

.. Are we sure he's still actually staying?

It appears the club's lack of urgency to re-sign him is in line with where they rate his output.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

It appears the club's lack of urgency to re-sign him is in line with where they rate his output.

Something doesn't add up. Minson had a very good year and was clearly in the top 5 or 6 ruckmen in the league. It's almost as though we are trying to nudge him out the door.

If I was Minson, my bags would be packed.

[jeemak]

It's pretty hard to nail a top ten position in a B&F count, even in a trying year.

I look at our top ten list and can only pick out Liberatore and Dickson as players Minson maybe out performed.

While he had a vastly improved season as a ruckman this year, he wasn't necessarily better than those who made top ten.

While I thought his output was better than previous years, I still think he lacks impact around the ground away from ruck and first contest duties. If he asserted himself in more marking contests across the ground his stocks would rise.

[Bulldog Joe]

Something doesn't add up. Minson had a very good year and was clearly in the top 5 or 6 ruckmen in the league. It's almost as though we are trying to nudge him out the door.

If I was Minson, my bags would be packed.

I can't believe Will wasn't rated higher.

i did attend the night and spoke to Will. He admitted to being disappointed in the voting.

However, he did say his first priority next week was to sign on.

[Sedat]

It appears the club's lack of urgency to re-sign him is in line with where they rate his output.
Fair assumption. Surprising one given BMac has come from Geelong where Ottens was an absolutely crucial component in their rise from under achiever to super power of the competition. Minson plays similarly to Ottens as far as stoppage work goes, although as Jeemak pointed out Will lacks the around the ground aerial presence of an Ottens. Still I'm staggered that Will wasn't top 3 in the B&F, let alone top 10

[w3design]

It's pretty hard to nail a top ten position in a B&F count, even in a trying year.

I look at our top ten list and can only pick out Liberatore and Dickson as players Minson maybe out performed.

While he had a vastly improved season as a ruckman this year, he wasn't necessarily better than those who made top ten.

While I thought his output was better than previous years, I still think he lacks impact around the ground away from ruck and first contest duties. If he asserted himself in more marking contests across the ground his stocks would rise.

Sorry, but for once I am going to have to disagree with you [a bit] there jeemac.
I can think at first glance of at least four players in that top ten who had significantly less impact on our season than Minno.
While I agree he could take more marks around the ground, I don't think he gets anywhere enough credit for his second efforts, in and under work for a big guy, his bullocking assists, or his breaking up of space in packs for his smaller team mates.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I can't believe Will wasn't rated higher.

i did attend the night and spoke to Will. He admitted to being disappointed in the voting.

However, he did say his first priority next week was to sign on.

Under the combination of Mccartney and King he produced his best ever footy

I can see why he would want to stay

I thought he would be top 10 but perhaps the coaches have challenged him to be even better again

[AndrewP6]

Under the combination of Mccartney and King he produced his best ever footy

I can see why he would want to stay

I thought he would be top 10 but perhaps the coaches have challenged him to be even better again

And they decided to recognise this by leaving him out of the clubs top 10?

[LongWait]

And they decided to recognise this by leaving him out of the clubs top 10?

Well last year he played for Williamstown!

[GVGjr]

And they decided to recognise this by leaving him out of the clubs top 10?

Are you sure both McCartney and King did?

[AndrewP6]

Are you sure both McCartney and King did?

No. How many of them vote on the B&F?

[azabob]

And they decided to recognise this by leaving him out of the clubs top 10?


Are you sure both McCartney and King did?


No. How many of them vote on the B&F?

Andrew, your fist post read's like you think they vote on the B&F at the end of round 23, rather than after each game?

The match committee vote.

[AndrewP6]

Andrew, your fist post read's like you think they vote on the B&F at the end of round 23, rather than after each game?

The match committee vote.

Will had a really good season. If they couldn't see that, I'm staggered.

On second thought, perhaps I should've expected it.

[LongWait]

Will had a really good season. If they couldn't see that, I'm staggered.

On second thought, perhaps I should've expected it.

The previous Coach didn't think that Will was in our best 22. This year he was our No.1 ruck, but because the coach didn't rate him top 10 in the B&F, the new coach is a spud?

[always right]

Will had a really good season. If they couldn't see that, I'm staggered.

On second thought, perhaps I should've expected it.

You should be rapt.....another opportunity to pot the coach.

[azabob]

Will had a really good season. If they couldn't see that, I'm staggered.

On second thought, perhaps I should've expected it.

As most poster's say it is a puzzling one. I guess it comes back to what you are asked to do on the day, and that is something we are not aware of. But having said that Im not sure how complex a ruckmans instructions can be.

[LongWait]

As most poster's say it is a puzzling one. I guess it comes back to what you are asked to do on the day, and that is something we are not aware of. But having said that Im not sure how complex a ruckmans instructions can be.

It might come down to Will not taking any marks around the ground and having had absolutely no scoreboard impact. Whilst Will is a warrior and a very good tap ruckman, he offers not much else when compared to the best big men in the game.

[Desipura]

It might come down to Will not taking any marks around the ground and having had absolutely no scoreboard impact. Whilst Will is a warrior and a very good tap ruckman, he offers not much else when compared to the best big men in the game.

Well said, whilst he had his best season ever, there were not many games he dominated.

[bornadog]

The previous Coach didn't think that Will was in our best 22. This year he was our No.1 ruck, but because the coach didn't rate him top 10 in the B&F, the new coach is a spud?

The previous coach had Hudson at his disposal and he was the number one ruck.

This year Will has come of age and has had a great season, despite his finish in the B&F. The top ten is made up of mainly midfielders and they seem to get all the votes in all B&Fs.

To me its not a concern.

[bornadog]

Well said, whilst he had his best season ever, there were not many games he dominated.

We know you hate Minson so your opinion doesn't count:D

[Desipura]

We know you hate Minson so your opinion doesn't count:D

I have met Will and he is a ripper bloke! He is a good tap ruck man who will never be a dominant ruck man.
Just because I don't rate him alongside Dean Cox like you and a lot of other posters do, does not mean I hate him. ;)

[LostDoggy]

It might come down to Will not taking any marks around the ground and having had absolutely no scoreboard impact. Whilst Will is a warrior and a very good tap ruckman, he offers not much else when compared to the best big men in the game.
First we are comparing players within the club.
Apart from taps at our club where he beat the next best by over 500.
Minson finished 7th in tackles,7th in contested possessions, 3rd in contested marks, 5th in centre clearances, 10th in insides 50s, 9th in rebound 50s and 4th in 1%er.
Obvious he is undervalued especially when some of those stats would mean he fits into the coaches 'crack in' mantra.

[LongWait]

First we are comparing players within the club.
Apart from taps at our club where he beat the next best by over 500.
Minson finished 7th in tackles,7th in contested possessions, 3rd in contested marks, 5th in centre clearances, 10th in insides 50s, 9th in rebound 50s and 4th in 1%er.
Obvious he is undervalued especially when some of those stats would mean he fits into the coaches 'crack in' mantra.

I probably would have put Will just inside our top 10, but to not have him top 10 is hardly an outrageous outcome. If you selectively quote stats for other players you could make a case for about 15 players to be in our top 10.

[azabob]

Does anyone know how many votes Will Minson actually got and where he finished?

[LostDoggy]

I probably would have put Will just inside our top 10, but to not have him top 10 is hardly an outrageous outcome. If you selectively quote stats for other players you could make a case for about 15 players to be in our top 10.

Paint it anyway you want it.
Top 3 in the woof awards.
Top 4 in big footy.
The general consensus is wrong, instead the coaching staff that took to us fourth last are right.

[Desipura]

Gee whiz, got recognition in some prestigious awards.

[LongWait]

Paint it anyway you want it.
Top 3 in the woof awards.
Top 4 in big footy.
The general consensus is wrong, instead the coaching staff that took to us fourth last are right.

I'd be quite certain of that. You seriously think I'd rate your judgement, or the judgement of the BigFooty crowd ahead of Brendan McCartney???

Shit you rate yourself.

[Desipura]

I'd be quite certain of that. You seriously think I'd rate your judgement, or the judgement of the BigFooty crowd ahead of Brendan McCartney???

Shit you rate yourself.

I rate your opinions Longwait, nice work on the draftees!
I trust BMac knows what he is talking about.

[LostDoggy]

What other valid recognition is there of player values within the club are there?
LW says the stats lie.
Most people except those who wanted him traded years back are staggered he could make top 10.
If the opinions of the majority here, aren't prestigious enough then why read woof in the first place?

[LostDoggy]

I'd be quite certain of that. You seriously think I'd rate your judgement, or the judgement of the BigFooty crowd ahead of Brendan McCartney???

Shit you rate yourself.

Yes I rate myself. Sorry you don't. Anyone could see except the blind can see Minson should be in our top 10.

[Maddog37]

I agree that Minno was ok but how does it get back to being about the coach again?

[Desipura]

I agree that Minno was ok but how does it get back to being about the coach again?

The coach is to blame for Will having his best season ever as well as playing him first ruck over the whole season for possibly the first time in his career.
Also he is to blame for not placing him in the top 10 of the best and fairest. Did Wills suspension cost him some votes, it's not exactly fair to slegde about an opposition players family member is it?

[LongWait]

What other valid recognition is there of player values within the club are there?
LW says the stats lie. Most people except those who wanted him traded years back are staggered he could make top 10.
If the opinions of the majority here, aren't prestigious enough then why read woof in the first place?

I don't say that the stats lie - I say that you selecting only stats which suit your argument and quoting them doesn't impress me. I could do the same thing with other players and make them look much, much better than Minson.

So stats don't lie - it's your use of the stats that's the problem.

This argument started, as they so often do on this forum, as a coach bagging exercise. It is pointless, counter-productive and pathetic to take Minsons' B&F result as yet another in an endless list of excuses to belittle the coach. What the hell has this forum become?

[GVGjr]

Paint it anyway you want it.
Top 3 in the woof awards.
Top 4 in big footy.
The general consensus is wrong, instead the coaching staff that took to us fourth last are right.

They are completely different styles in voting and can therefore have very different results.
Consistency throughout the season in the club awards counts for more than here on WOOF.

[Topdog]

I don't say that the stats lie - I say that you selecting only stats which suit your argument and quoting them doesn't impress me. I could do the same thing with other players and make them look much, much better than Minson.

So stats don't lie - it's your use of the stats that's the problem.

What other stats are there in footy? Chops mentioned about 8 of them.

Anyway I have no idea how they do these b&f's at the dogs and there in lies half the problem. Every team seems to do the voting differently. How do the dogs do it?

[bornadog]

I have met Will and he is a ripper bloke! He is a good tap ruck man who will never be a dominant ruck man.
Just because I don't rate him alongside Dean Cox like you and a lot of other posters do, does not mean I hate him. ;)

Whats Dean Cox have to do with anything? I hate Dean Cox and the smug look on his face.

[LostDoggy]

I don't say that the stats lie - I say that you selecting only stats which suit your argument and quoting them doesn't impress me. I could do the same thing with other players and make them look much, much better than Minson.

So stats don't lie - it's your use of the stats that's the problem.

This argument started, as they so often do on this forum, as a coach bagging exercise. It is pointless, counter-productive and pathetic to take Minsons' B&F result as yet another in an endless list of excuses to belittle the coach. What the hell has this forum become?

Here Here Longwait.

[bornadog]

What the hell has this forum become?

The forum like all forums is there for discussion, opinions and general information.

As long as people don't get personal, nothing wrong with a negative post.

Just ignore any negative posts if you don't like them. I know it can get tiresome, but ignore is the best way to go.

[G-Mo77]

Just ignore any negative posts if you don't like them. I know it can get tiresome, but ignore is the best way to go.

The ignore list works a treat in the UserCP. Makes WOOF a much better place when you don't have to read the Negative Nellies.

[LostDoggy]

There is a select few posters who clearly don't think the coach is the right man for the job. I'm giving the guy the benefit of another preseason and season 2013 before I'm willing to start judging his influence on the team. It is getting a little stale consistently reading posts that clearly have sack the coach undertones. Call me glass half full if you like but I tend to think that we are embarking on a plan that nobody at the club has ever had the guts to do and that is rebuild the team from the ground up. I mean a proper rebuild where we draft the right kind of kids and teach them all a specific way of playing the game. A plan where we focus on different areas of the game in order to become proficient at them, so they become the foundations of the game plan. I'm not saying it's the right plan and game style but only time will tell. The list needs an overhaul and I'm sure we'd all agree on that, which is not BMac's fault.

I don't want us to always agree but it would be good to endure this rough patch together and try to stay as positive as we can regardless of whether we approve of the coach or not. We all want to get to the summit but won't always agree which track we take up the mountain.

[Desipura]

Whats Dean Cox have to do with anything? I hate Dean Cox and the smug look on his face.

I'm saying you rate Will so highly that you would compare him to Cox in ability.

[GVGjr]

I'm saying you rate Will so highly that you would compare him to Cox in ability.

That's not correct. Plenty of people think Will is a good ruckman but I've never read anything like someone comparing him to Dean Cox. I think your argument must be running a bit thin if you think that is BAD's opinion.

[Desipura]

That's not correct. Plenty of people think Will is a good ruckman but I've never read anything like someone comparing him to Dean Cox. I think your argument must be running a bit thin if you think that is BAD's opinion.

Just like BADS argument that I hate any player I do not rate as highly as him you mean?
Ok, I understand now.

[Bulldog Joe]

Does anyone know how many votes Will Minson actually got and where he finished?

My biggest problem with the B&F was the lack of transperancy.

There was no game by game or player by player voting, just a tally at the conclusion of rounds 8, 16 and end of season.

This could easily have been manipulated (not saying it was) to provide any outcome desired.

[azabob]

My biggest problem with the B&F was the lack of transperancy.

There was no game by game or player by player voting, just a tally at the conclusion of rounds 8, 16 and end of season.

This could easily have been manipulated (not saying it was) to provide any outcome desired.

Bulldog Joe, I would imagine all clubs would do it similar. How do you suggest they do it?

Personally, considering the year we had, that was the only way to do it, otherwise you spend most of the night listening to the MC reading votes and player tally's, when in reality the B&F night is about the players and them celebrating / commiserating the season just gone. I can't imgaine they want to hear every mundane vote read out.

[G-Mo77]

My biggest problem with the B&F was the lack of transperancy.

There was no game by game or player by player voting, just a tally at the conclusion of rounds 8, 16 and end of season.

This could easily have been manipulated (not saying it was) to provide any outcome desired.

The way I've seen it done was posting the results up to a certain point on a board for everyone to see and pick it up at the half way mark. That was only a 3-2-1 vote format though.

It's boring sitting there watching and listening to the whole season.

[Bulldog Joe]

The way I've seen it done was posting the results up to a certain point on a board for everyone to see and pick it up at the half way mark. That was only a 3-2-1 vote format though.

It's boring sitting there watching and listening to the whole season.

Yes it would be boring going through every vote, but hardly difficult to put it on a powerpoint to scroll through. They did actually go through and show something for each game. Why couldn't the votes for that game have been superimposed on the screen at that point.

They could also have had a tally sheet with a game by game available for anyone interested at the end of the night.


It was not a 3-2-1 format and the explanation provided suggested that every player could have received a vote in every game to a maximum of 20 votes. This was given as a quick explanation by Craig Willis as MC for the evening.

Again this could have been provided as an explanatory note with the completed voting for those interested.

They could have even provided a booklet at the end of the night with full details and charged a fee for it.

[bornadog]

Just like BADS argument that I hate any player I do not rate as highly as him you mean?
Ok, I understand now.

Desi, I was joking in my post. I understand your position on Will and respect your opinion.

[bornadog]

The way I've seen it done was posting the results up to a certain point on a board for everyone to see and pick it up at the half way mark. That was only a 3-2-1 vote format though.

It's boring sitting there watching and listening to the whole season.

Be interesting to know how they do the voting and what criteria they look for?

It would be good if it was transparent and would save a lot of argument.

At the end of the day, just like most of the other club B&F's, (and Brownlow) midfielders have dominated, so no surprise on Will Minson.

[Ozza]

So apart from the normal b1tching about the club and the coaches.....a congratulations to the award winners.

I was there on Saturday night - and as it happened was sitting on a table with Matty Boyd's family - so it was fantastic to see him win it, and be amongst the reaction of his family, who were very very proud - and clearly love the club and all the players.

Liam Picken picked up plenty of awards also, including 3rd in the B&F, and was his normal humble self.

Macca gave a terriffic address. He is very very impressive every time I've heard him speak. Despite the ordinary season - the players all seem very on board, and enthusiastic for the coming season.

[azabob]

So apart from the normal b1tching about the club and the coaches.....and congratulations to the award winners.

I was there on Saturday night - and as it happened was sitting on a table with Matty Boyd's family - so it was fantastic to see him win it, and be amongst the reaction of his family, who were very very proud - and clearly love the club and all the players.

Liam Picken picked up plenty of awards also, including 3rd in the B&F, and was his normal humble self.

Macca gave a terriffic address. He is very very impressive every time I've heard him speak. Depite the ordinary season - the players all seem very on board, and enthusiastic for the coming season.

Picken did get in trouble with his GF though after his acceptance speech for 3rd place.

As you said all players spoke highly of Macca even the outgoing ones. Yes, some might say of course they will say good things about Macca, but it is more to do with the extra lengths they went and what they said which makes me think they truely do believe we are heading in the right direction.

[WB4Life]

Macca gave a terriffic address. He is very very impressive every time I've heard him speak. Despite the ordinary season - the players all seem very on board, and enthusiastic for the coming season.

great to hear... here's to hoping we can build on last season and move forward.

[KT31]

Congrats to all winners, especially to Boyd who has led from the front in such a poor year.

[bornadog]

So apart from the normal b1tching about the club and the coaches.....a congratulations to the award winners.

I was there on Saturday night - and as it happened was sitting on a table with Matty Boyd's family - so it was fantastic to see him win it, and be amongst the reaction of his family, who were very very proud - and clearly love the club and all the players.

Liam Picken picked up plenty of awards also, including 3rd in the B&F, and was his normal humble self.

Macca gave a terriffic address. He is very very impressive every time I've heard him speak. Despite the ordinary season - the players all seem very on board, and enthusiastic for the coming season.

Was there any talk on the night that Chris Grant may be stepping down from the Board?

[Ozza]

Was there any talk on the night that Chris Grant may be stepping down from the Board?

I didn't hear any mention of this.

[Mantis]

Macca gave a terriffic address. He is very very impressive every time I've heard him speak. Despite the ordinary season - the players all seem very on board, and enthusiastic for the coming season.

I'm hearing that this isn't the case with quite a few players sick of the 'spin'.

[Ozza]

I'm hearing that this isn't the case with quite a few players sick of the 'spin'.

Pretty ordinary that they are airing their grievances publicly if thats the case. I don't have much regard for players having a sook outside of the club.

[Mofra]

Pretty ordinary that they are airing their grievances publicly if thats the case. I don't have much regard for players having a sook outside of the club.
That's not what Mantis said ;)

If, for example, a player complained to their manager I'd suggest that's fair play - a manager should know everything about their players that effect their game and/or spoton the list.

[Maddog37]

I'm hearing that this isn't the case with quite a few players sick of the 'spin'.

Which players?

[GVGjr]

We know you hate Minson so your opinion doesn't count:D


I'm saying you rate Will so highly that you would compare him to Cox in ability.


Just like BADS argument that I hate any player I do not rate as highly as him you mean?
Ok, I understand now.

So your response was an even up on what was a good natured comment that BAD and clearly said in jest?
You don't always need to overreact when someone tests your views.

[Desipura]

So your response was an even up on what was a good natured comment that BAD and clearly said in jest?
You don't always need to overreact when someone tests your views.

And you do not need to defame my character.

[GVGjr]

And you do not need to defame my character.

You shouldn't see it that way, you simply overreacted to a comment clearly said in jest and your doing it again.

[The Cowshed]

How about Mitch Wallis' speech...is he our next captain or what?

[GVGjr]

How about Mitch Walis' speech...is he our next captain or what?


He's great. In a couple of seasons he will be a real leader at the club.

[Desipura]

How about Mitch Wallis' speech...is he our next captain or what?

Most definitely!

[Mantis]

Which players?

No names, but some are players who you wouldn't expect to be thinking this way.

[KT31]

No names, but some are players who you wouldn't expect to be thinking this way.

Heard very similar myself.

[LostDoggy]

Heard very similar myself.

If thats true it goes a long way to explaining why we are not a successful club. The new coaching team needs more than 12 months to prove themselves and deserves support not bitching. I'm sick and tired of the whinging, the excuses, we need players, administrators and supporters that are absolutely committed to building a strong united team.

[KT31]

If thats true it goes a long way to explaining why we are not a successful club. The new coaching team needs more than 12 months to prove themselves and deserves support not bitching. I'm sick and tired of the whinging, the excuses, we need players, administrators and supporters that are absolutely committed to building a strong united team.

Woof supportors are not the issue, the majority are members and those that are not should take a back seat.
Whinging has been an issue of late but only because we all are for the club and have had such a poor season.
From murmours I heard it is going to be a long couple of years.

[Mantis]

If thats true it goes a long way to explaining why we are not a successful club. The new coaching team needs more than 12 months to prove themselves and deserves support not bitching. I'm sick and tired of the whinging, the excuses, we need players, administrators and supporters that are absolutely committed to building a strong united team.

But if the coaching staff aren't providing the type of environment that the players expect are they supposed to sit on their hands or are they able to voice their concerns?

[Desipura]

But if the coaching staff aren't providing the type of environment that the players expect are they supposed to sit on their hands or are they able to voice their concerns?

Perhaps the players have had too much of a say in the past? Perhaps this is why we have been starved of success

[Mantis]

Perhaps the players have had too much of a say in the past? Perhaps this is why we have been starved of success

I'm not sure what you are getting at with this question/statement. :confused:

Pretty sure the players want action plans and not cliches from a book.

[LongWait]

So far we have learned that a number of the players are not behind the coaching staff; that players can't express their views and are supposed to sit in their hands; that players are sick of the spin; that the players are coached with cliches from a book.

Is that you Aker?

[Mantis]

So far we have learned that a number of the players are not behind the coaching staff; that players can't express their views and are supposed to sit in their hands; that players are sick of the spin; that the players are coached with cliches from a book.

Is that you Aker?

What if it is?

[Maddog37]

Heard very similar myself.

Can you elaborate at all KT. Eamples or specific issues?

[DogzMan]

I hate unsubstantiated allegations, even if they come from reliable sources. Can you at least give us an age bracket? I find this news very very worrying!

[jeemak]

Can you elaborate at all KT. Eamples or specific issues?

It would be standard footy club stuff mate. Some older players not happy with the directives given, and the restrictions regarding message in the press. These older players will be backed up by a few of the middle aged and younger players who are jostling for political position within the playing group.

Then you have your soldiers that just do what they're told and tow the line irrespective of who's in charge.

It gets out in to the public that there's some differences of opinion between the playing group and the coaching staff, that there's differences of opinion between certain players, and differences of opinion between the coaching team as well as the administration. People like us end up talking about it.

Football clubs are the same the world over. The only thing separating an AFL club from any hack ammo or regional/suburban club is the profile and the revenue generated. They're all full of egos, and people who think they have better ideas and more ability than the next guy.

I suppose the good clubs turn out to be the ones with more soldiers than schemers and put the crap behind them rather than resorting to sniggering or displaying unnease via incorrect channels. Hopefully we turn out to be one of these.

As for player managers being told everything, unfortunately that's the way the game is going. I just wish the player managers could keep their mouths shut and retain commercial confidence rather than stroking it for their own gratification and end gain.

[azabob]

It would be standard footy club stuff mate.

Great post jeemak.

[KT31]

Can you elaborate at all KT. Eamples or specific issues?

Sorry somehow missed this yesterday.
Can't really elaborate (or shouldn't), just it was mentioned a couple of times to me during the season a few players were not cinvinced with our direction.
This is pretty standard at all clubs as under new regimes players jostle in the peckeing order, favourites are not favourites anymore and those on the outer may get a chance to shine.

Jeemak has summed it up very well.

[Maddog37]

So when we are winning everyone is happy and when we are losing people want someone to blame basically.

[LostDoggy]

So when we are winning everyone is happy and when we are losing people want someone to blame basically.

Yes. You're not happy winning?
A loss every now and then I can take.
We were losing at lot lately, do you think there are no reasons why a this is happening?
Without change how are the problems fixed?

[Sedat]

So when we are winning everyone is happy and when we are losing people want someone to blame basically.
Manner of the losses was the killer for me. I was very happy with our first 9 games - can handle highly competitive losses like the Adelaide, Geelong and Collingwood ones in that time. But the repeated capitulations from the SCG game against Sydney onwards for the rest of the season was very tough to watch. I wouldn't want to be seeing these types of losses on anywhere near as regular a basis next season. Not even really looking at the w/l column for improvement next season, just want to see us be far more competitive for much longer in games.

[Ghost Dog]

Manner of the losses was the killer for me. I was very happy with our first 9 games - can handle highly competitive losses like the Adelaide, Geelong and Collingwood ones in that time. But the repeated capitulations from the SCG game against Sydney onwards for the rest of the season was very tough to watch. I wouldn't want to be seeing these types of losses on anywhere near as regular a basis next season. Not even really looking at the w/l column for improvement next season, just want to see us be far more competitive for much longer in games.

Can it be put down to the fading out of a younger group?
I just hope the coach is not that blinkered to understand this.

The development excuse can only be used so much.
Smaller clubs need to be street fighters. We have to win well when we can, sneak wins when we don't have the best players, or just be plain frigging annoying and hard to beat. That's who we are, the Bulldogs. I hope all the bizarre sub choices and staid match day coaching can be chalked up to experimentation and bring on the mongrel 2013.

[Maddog37]

So we pander to the unhappy players and sack the coach or get rid of the players that are not 100% on board with the coach.

Which way do people think is best for the club in the short and long term?

[Mantis]

Manner of the losses was the killer for me. I was very happy with our first 9 games - can handle highly competitive losses like the Adelaide, Geelong and Collingwood ones in that time. But the repeated capitulations from the SCG game against Sydney onwards for the rest of the season was very tough to watch. I wouldn't want to be seeing these types of losses on anywhere near as regular a basis next season. Not even really looking at the w/l column for improvement next season, just want to see us be far more competitive for much longer in games.

The term 'hard to play' was spoken about by the coach/es during the pre-season as something that we want to become... Fact is we weren't this year and like you we need to become far more competitive in games sooner rather than later.

[bornadog]

So we pander to the unhappy players and sack the coach or get rid of the players that are not 100% on board with the coach.

Which way do people think is best for the club in the short and long term?

At the end of 2007 this was the list of the last 7 games:



16 Geelong Loss 75
17 WCoast Loss 87
18 St Kilda Draw 0
19 Melbourne Loss 42
20 Adelaide Loss 34
21 Hawthorn Loss 84
22 North Loss 64


2008 we came good. I just hope we show some fight next year.

[Maddog37]

All I know is that any team will fall apart when the going gets tough if it is not united.

[LostDoggy]

All I know is that any team will fall apart when the going gets tough if it is not united.

Let's unite and all go down with the ship.

[Maddog37]

So keep the agitating players and sack the coach Chops?

Fair enough.

[LostDoggy]

So keep the agitating players and sack the coach Chops?

Fair enough.

If the ship is going down then something has to give. Maybe the players are right.

[westdog54]

At the end of 2007 this was the list of the last 7 games:



16 Geelong Loss 75
17 WCoast Loss 87
18 St Kilda Draw 0
19 Melbourne Loss 42
20 Adelaide Loss 34
21 Hawthorn Loss 84
22 North Loss 64


2008 we came good. I just hope we show some fight next year.

We arguably were working with a worse list this year than in 2007, although we were carrying plenty of injuries in 2008.

Obviously I don't think we'll bounce back with quite the same force but there will be some improvement I'm sure.

[Desipura]

With so many failed attempts to play in a GF, perhaps we never had the right players to get us there in the first place.
A lot of those prelim's, I felt we buckled under pressure.
BMac is trying to recruit players that can be successful in finals, time will tell.
He is on a hiding to nothing, if he is not around to bare the fruits of his labour, I am sure the next coach will.

[jeemak]

With so many failed attempts to play in a GF, perhaps we never had the right players to get us there in the first place.
A lot of those prelim's, I felt we buckled under pressure.
BMac is trying to recruit players that can be successful in finals, time will tell.
He is on a hiding to nothing, if he is not around to bare the fruits of his labour, I am sure the next coach will.

I think if we'd have shown up to play in each of 2008's and 2009's qualifying finals against Hawthorn and Geelong respectively we'd have had more confidence in our ability to compete in each of the subsequent preliminary finals of those years. You gain belief from solid competitive performances.

While I'm always shattered after a preliminary final loss, I was just mortified about our innability to get our heads in the game in those qualifying finals.

Hopefully the club learns from that, and recruits players that have the mental capacity to be competitive in any circumstance.

[Desipura]

I think if we'd have shown up to play in each of 2008's and 2009's qualifying finals against Hawthorn and Geelong respectively we'd have had more confidence in our ability to compete in each of the subsequent preliminary finals of those years. You gain belief from solid competitive performances.

Hopefully the club learns from that, and recruits players that have the mental capacity to be competitive in any circumstance.

I especially agree with your last sentence. The players we have had previously, have not had the mental capacity to perform on the big stage regularly or be competitive in difficult circumstances.

I think BMac has recognized this, and I agree with him.

[G-Mo77]

The Hawthorn one was an absolute embarrassment. The stage was set that we were going to play Hawthorn about 4 - 6 weeks before seasons end and from memory lost 4 of the last 6 games. Bad form going into finals and result in that game, looking back now the blow out was expected.

[Desipura]

The Hawthorn one was an absolute embarrassment. The stage was set that we were going to play Hawthorn about 4 - 6 weeks before seasons end and from memory lost 4 of the last 6 games. Bad form going into finals and result in that game, looking back now the blow out was expected.

Lake had a horror night I can recall. The one player we needed to step up.

[G-Mo77]

Lake had a horror night I can recall. The one player we needed to step up.

Being a defender I'll stick up for him and Morris on that night. The Midfield and forward half were like matadors that night. Even if we had the best defensive unit in AFL history they still would have been carved up.

[jeemak]

Being a defender I'll stick up for him and Morris on that night. The Midfield and forward half were like matadors that night. Even if we had the best defensive unit in AFL history they still would have been carved up.

Completely agree. We were so switched off in the middle and across half forward that we didn't stand a chance in defense.

[Go_Dogs]

The Hawthorn one was an absolute embarrassment. The stage was set that we were going to play Hawthorn about 4 - 6 weeks before seasons end and from memory lost 4 of the last 6 games. Bad form going into finals and result in that game, looking back now the blow out was expected.

One of the worst nights of my life. Scored corporate tickets, flew over from Adelaide meeting a Canadian mate who lives in North Qld for his first AFL experience (pretty sure he is now a Hawks supporter!), quite optimistic about our chances......and we delivered that. As you say, perhaps it shouldn't have been unexpected.

[jeemak]

I went with my best mate who is a Hawthorn supporter. I told him 15 minutes into the first quarter we'll be lucky to get out of this with a 50 point loss.

He just smiled like a normal Hawthorn wanker smiles, though credit to him, he didn't rub it in too much.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

That Hawthorn game sucked, but you knew it was coming.

The 2009 QF against Geelong was the bigger disappointment for mine. We had great form going into that game and beat two challengers including the Cats on our way to that game. Hudson kicked the first goal, but after that, we were hammered and were never in the game.

We delivered some respect to the scoreboard late, but gee, that was a really disappointing day. We didn't learn from the previous year.

[LostDoggy]

I don't really agree with all this talk of players not being mentally strong enough ect ect..

Yes our QF's were pretty poor, but i believe all of our prelim's were huge efforts. I simply think we just ran into better teams than us on all 3 occasions.

I still remember the first half of our QF against Hawthorn, looking in Hawthorns forward 50 and it was Franklin and Morris and that's it, felt so sorry for Morris, he couldnt do anything.

[jeemak]

That Hawthorn game sucked, but you knew it was coming.

The 2009 QF against Geelong was the bigger disappointment for mine. We had great form going into that game and beat two challengers including the Cats on our way to that game. Hudson kicked the first goal, but after that, we were hammered and were never in the game.

We delivered some respect to the scoreboard late, but gee, that was a really disappointing day. We didn't learn from the previous year.


I don't really agree with all this talk of players not being mentally strong enough ect ect..

Yes our QF's were pretty poor, but i believe all of our prelim's were huge efforts. I simply think we just ran into better teams than us on all 3 occasions.

I still remember the first half of our QF against Hawthorn, looking in Hawthorns forward 50 and it was Franklin and Morris and that's it, felt so sorry for Morris, he couldnt do anything.


I got the impression we were a little cute with our training methods leading up to the Hawthorn qualifying final in '08, and as a result we were physically tired, to a point. Having said that, there's just no excuse for giving your opposition midfielders as much space as Hawthorn's were given that night, irrespective of fatigue from training, or ability. We were loose, unnacountable and irresponsible through that area of the ground. And we paid.

The Geelong game in 2009 hurt me the most. We let a side ripe for the picking run over us early on. Geelong fans will tell you that they let up, but that's rubbish. We were as good as they were that year, and if we had have played them in the GF in the wet we'd have accounted for ourselves very well, as we were just as tough as them. St Kilda was our issue that year, because they had a plan built specifically to stop teams like ours.

I agree that we performed very well in the preliminary finals in 2008 and 2009, and to be honest when we were sick and on the ropes I think we didn't disgrace ourselves in 2010. The common theme, at least in 2008 and 2009 was we were mentally under prepared for the qualifying finals, and our momentum and physical capabilities were sapped by the time we reached the second last week, when our opponents were fresher after a week off.

[Mofra]

The Hawthorn one was an absolute embarrassment. The stage was set that we were going to play Hawthorn about 4 - 6 weeks before seasons end and from memory lost 4 of the last 6 games. Bad form going into finals and result in that game, looking back now the blow out was expected.
We played around with the team in the weeks leading up to the final which resulted in the losses. As they say in the classics, you don't flirt with form.

Eade learnt from it and never did it again.

[1eyedog]

I wonder how you identify mental toughness in a 16/17 year old draft hopeful and extrapolate that onto how he might perform when he is 24?

Hard to draft this even through psychology assessments.