Lake gone

[bornadog]

Disgraceful

exchange for 1st round with Hawks

[SlimPickens]

Source???

[bornadog]

for pick 21

Confirmed by Marty Pask, had a discussion with Macca. End of next year he is a free agent and he can now play finals and we get three picks in round one.

[Grantysghost]

Disgraceful - spot on. Can't believe it!

[chef]

Sad to see him go, but pick 21 for someone with a couple of seasons left in him is an awesome deal.

We just need to get these picks right.

[jazzadogs]

I'm not sure what's disgraceful about it...but I am certainly surprised it has happened.

Wait to see how upset Lake is before you start calling the club a disgrace. If he wanted to go (even if he was planning to go next year), then we've done the right thing by him and the club. 3 first round picks will do wonders for our future.

[bornadog]

Lets get rid of Club Champions thats our Motto.

Macca had already told Lake he will never play Fullback again, now I know why, he just wanted him out.

[Mofra]

Sad to see him go, but pick 21 for someone with a couple of seasons left in him is an awesome deal.

We just need to get these picks right.
An awesome deal?

Lake is better than a 6 pick upgrade in a compromised draft.


Wait to see how upset Lake is before you start calling the club a disgrace. If he wanted to go (even if he was planning to go next year), then we've done the right thing by him and the club. 3 first round picks will do wonders for our future.
See above.
I would have wanted alot more personally - did we even try to give them our third round compo instead of our second rounder as well?

[chef]

Lets get rid of Club Champions thats our Motto.

Macca had already told Lake he will never play Fullback again, now I know why, he just wanted him out.

Nothing to do with Roberts, Talia and Markovic needing game time?

[chef]

An awesome deal?

Lake is better than a 6 pick upgrade in a compromised draft.

But he doesn't want to stay(I wish he did). He wants to play finals.

So compared to losing him for a 2nd or 3rd round pick(or nothing at the end of next year) I would say it is an awesome deal.

We now have 3 first round picks.

[jazzadogs]

An awesome deal?

Lake is better than a 6 pick upgrade in a compromised draft.


See above.
I would have wanted alot more personally - did we even try to give them our third round compo instead of our second rounder as well?
Fair enough if the issue is more with the specifics of the trade, rather than the fact that we got rid of Lake.

I think it would have been great if we could have got an earlier first round pick, but can't imagine it would have happened.

[LostDoggy]

Holy shite.........

Did not see this coming at all.

[craigsahibee]

Nothing to do with Roberts, Talia and Markovic needing game time?

The more game time Markovic gets, the worse we will be.

Whoever they snare with pick 21 better be able to get a kick.

[Sedat]

An awesome deal?

Lake is better than a 6 pick upgrade in a compromised draft.
Crikey, I thought it was for pick 21 on its own, not for a 6 pick upgrade to pick 21 :eek:

There is nothing 'awsome' about this particular deal

[Mofra]

Didn't see the pick 41 portion initially, although I think we could have held out a little longer to try and get more out of the deal.

We seemed keen to get a deal done on the first day, more trading to come?

[Desipura]

Good deal, well done to the club to get another first round.

[Mantis]

Crikey, I thought it was for pick 21 on its own, not for a 6 pick upgrade to pick 21 :eek:

There is nothing 'awsome' about this particular deal

We got pick 44 too. :D

[bornadog]

Good deal, well done to the club to get another first round.

Lets get rid of all our Champion players

[Desipura]

Lets get rid of all our Champion players
He was chasing posessions this year. Its not the direction we need to go in.
We are rebuilding at Lake is not part of that process. Hopefully the Hawks have taken over his contract from us.

[angelopetraglia]

Disgraceful indeed. Basically we have traded Brian Lake for a 40 something pick.

The only way that this makes sense is if they think his body is gone.

[bornadog]

He was chasing posessions this year. Its not the direction we need to go in.
We are rebuilding at Lake is not part of that process. Hopefully the Hawks have taken over his contract from us.

Ok, lets trade Boyd, delist Morris Gia and Cross and go for broke.:rolleyes:

[Desipura]

Ok, lets trade Boyd, delist Morris Gia and Cross and go for broke.:rolleyes:
Do they have the casual approach to the game that Lake had? I think they bust their gut every single one of those players.
I made mention earlier this year, when we were getting pumped, Lake almost always had a dirty day, this is when we needed him to stand up.
On his day, he was one of the best, no doubt. He did not look interested at times.

[angelopetraglia]

The only thing to take into consideration is that Lake will be 31 before the next season starts.

[Sedat]

We got pick 44 too. :D
You have to laugh - apparently we have 6 picks inside the top 50 now and it represents "an unprecented time to build a list for long-term growth" yada yada. I'm sure I heard the same speech from Greg Miller in 2004 when Richmond had 4 picks in the top 20.

Lake was a mighty warrior for us during our contending era and was our 2nd best performed finals player behind Griffen. His shithouse 2011 season has clouded over what has been a brilliant career for us at the Dogs, and to essentially get pick 41 with a slight 2nd round upgrade for someone still near the peak of his powers is not something worth jumping through hoops about IMO.

[Greystache]

Ok, lets trade Boyd, delist Morris Gia and Cross and go for broke.:rolleyes:

How would delisting players benefit the club? If they wanted to leave and had some trade value I would look at it, other than Boyd none of them do.

[Sedat]

Do they have the casual approach to the game that Lake had? I think they bust their gut every single one of those players.
I wihs they had the same record in finals that Lake had.

[Bulldog4life]

Disgraceful indeed. Basically we have traded Brian Lake for a 40 something pick.

The only way that this makes sense is if they think his body is gone.

I could argue we basically got him for a first round draft pick. Depends which way you look at it.

[LostDoggy]

I think it is a good deal for both clubs, but it"s crucial we use those picks to turn the deal into a win for us!

Very sad to see Lake go!

[ledge]

He has a degenerative hip problem is 30 years old he struggled big time last year, if we kept him for another year we would get nothing for him. What value is keeping him if we aren't pushing for finals in the next year?
We get a first round pick at 21 and 41 but lose 27.

[bornadog]

How would delisting players benefit the club? If they wanted to leave and had some trade value I would look at it, other than Boyd none of them do.

The only reason Lake agrees is because he was told he is no longer going to play fullback at the club next year. Now we know why he was told by Macca - because he wants to get rid of him.

Sorry, as a Bulldog supporter, I have seen so many of our champs go I am sick and tired of it.

A clubs fabric is not made up of only young and up and coming players, but also by the old champs.

[Ozza]

I wihs they had the same record in finals that Lake had.

Well Brian's decided he is keen to go and add to that finals record elsewhere - so he can go and do that.

If he didn't want to stay at the club - then we may as well get something for him (mind you the compensation is very light on - I agree there).

[DragzLS1]

Seen it coming and said it last week! If they take his contract, we get more salary cap and more picks.. Hes only got 2 seasons left in him I would say and I for 1 am happy for him! EVEN THOUGH IM BURNING DEEP DOWN!

He has been there for us through thick and thin and is a champion and deserves what we couldnt give him, another crack at a premiership. I could only imagine what it feels like in our backline :s

Williams will have to step up which I think he can. Hope Hawks win it next year with Lake and are forever greatful to the dogs, aswell as giving 1 of our great FB a premiership, allbeit in some sh1zen colours.

Lets move on and look forward to the youngsters.

[bornadog]

He has a degenerative hip problem is 30 years old he struggled big time last year, if we kept him for another year we would get nothing for him. What value is keeping him if we aren't pushing for finals in the next year?
We get a first round pick at 21 and 41 but lose 27.

Who cares if we get nothing for him, I don't.

[mighty_west]

We basically moved up 6 places in the 20's for an AA full back, wasn't even a straight swap for 21, we just got totally bent over.

[Bulldog Joe]

Disgraceful indeed. Basically we have traded Brian Lake for a 40 something pick.

The only way that this makes sense is if they think his body is gone.

The way I read the trade and the day's events.

We have traded Brian Lake out - aging player with 1 yr to go before he could walk as a free agent.
We have brought Lachlan Hunter in. A player we have worked to get for some time and potentially a long senior career. I concede that he might not make it.

We have exchanged draft picks gaining 21 for 27

The 3rd rounder from Hawthorn basically gives us back the pick that was allocated for Hunter

So we get a new draftee with potential for a player whose career will be over before we again challenge, and we have already debuted players who can replace the old veteran with 2 players in 2012 showing great promise as KPD - Talia and Roughead plus Roberts who looks a likely swingman.

I am pretty happy with the deal.

[Greystache]

The only reason Lake agrees is because he was told he is no longer going to play fullback at the club next year. Now we know why he was told by Macca - because he wants to get rid of him.

Sorry, as a Bulldog supporter, I have seen so many of our champs go I am sick and tired of it.

A clubs fabric is not made up of only young and up and coming players, but also by the old champs.

You know this for a fact?

It's just as likely he's still extremely pissed off at the way the previous coaching group mismanaged him last year and now that his trade currency is back up he know he can tell the club to trade him to his club of choice or he'll walk next year for nothing.

[bornadog]

Hope Hawks win it next year with Lake and are forever greatful to the dogs, aswell as giving 1 of our great FB a premiership, allbeit in some sh1zen colours.



Sorry, hope Hawks don't make the finals and Lake doesn't get to play finals.

[Bulldog4life]

Who cares if we get nothing for him, I don't.

Now you're being silly :)

[jazzadogs]

I think it is a good deal for both clubs, but it"s crucial we use those picks to turn the deal into a win for us!

Very sad to see Lake go!
This is the key. If we draft quality, this trade will be talked about as a win for years to come (ie Cameron for Hargrave + Gilbee [or whichever players we traded with those picks]). If we draft kids who don't work out, Bulldogs fans will talk about this as the day our club was destroyed.

All comes down to the draft.

[bornadog]

1.You know this for a fact?

2. It's just as likely he's still extremely pissed off at the way the previous coaching group mismanaged him last year and now that his trade currency is back up he know he can tell the club to trade him to his club of choice or he'll walk next year for nothing.

1. Yes I do, Macca told my mate he will not be playing fullback again at the Bulldogs.

2. Please don't start that again, the only mismanagement was loud mouthed Monty.

[bornadog]

Now you're being silly :)

Its true, I would rather he stayed a dogs player for life and retired and doggies man.

[Greystache]

1. Yes I do, Macca told my mate he will not be playing fullback again at the Bulldogs.

2. Please don't start that again, the only mismanagement was loud mouthed Monty.

1. That's not what I asked, I asked if you know for a fact that he was told he wouldn't play FB again because McCartney wanted to get rid of him.

2. That's a hopelessly one eyed view of history.

[LostDoggy]

I never though ruthless efficiancy and the WB would ever be in the same sentence.

I like what has happened here. Lake has asked to walk, rather than prolonging a painful process we have given him what he wants and we get another 1st rounder. Or, we lose him to free agency next year and get bent over yet again.

Chris Grant is a club Champion. Lake was a great fullback for 3 years.

[Topdog]

Lake most likely wants to win a premiership. Getting pick 41 for him is terribly underrating him

[Maddog37]

Sad to see him go but glad the club is focussing long term.

As long as we do not trade for Dawes I will be happy.

[bornadog]

1. That's not what I asked, I asked if you know for a fact that he was told he wouldn't play FB again because McCartney wanted to get rid of him.

2. That's a hopelessly one eyed view of history.

1. ok, I understand - I assumed that because listening to Pask, Lake did not want to play forward, so I put two and two together.

2. You have your view through what you read in the media, I have my view from Eade over dinner.

[Sedat]

I never though ruthless efficiancy and the WB would ever be in the same sentence.
That's one way of looking at it - hasty and ill-conceived are other ways of looking at it. We're 1 day into a 3 week trade period. We have a player under contract being heavily courted by a premiership contender. Forget about next year - right now, Lake has significant currency for Hawthorn and the only way to get him to Glenferrie is through a trade. As Pelican has done on numerous occasions, we could have let Hawthorn simmer on this offer and come back with a counter-offer, like pick 21 on its own for example.

Anyway good to see you back TAMA - you've been missed on woof.

[Desipura]

I wihs they had the same record in finals that Lake had.

Too bad we wont be playing finals.

[Bulldog4life]

That's one way of looking at it - hasty and ill-conceived are other ways of looking at it. We're 1 day into a 3 week trade period. We have a player under contract being heavily courted by a premiership contender. Forget about next year - right now, Lake has significant currency for Hawthorn and the only way to get him to Glenferrie is through a trade. As Pelican has done on numerous occasions, we could have let Hawthorn simmer on this offer and come back with a counter-offer, like pick 21 on its own for example.

Anyway good to see you back TAMA - you've been missed on woof.

He is no longer at Hawthorn.

[bornadog]

He is no longer at Hawthorn.

I think Sedat means, that what he did when he was there, especially to us.

[Sedat]

He is no longer at Hawthorn.
I know that - I'm using him as an example of a list manager/trade week negotiator who holds out for the best possible deal for his club and isn't rushed into signing any trade so early in the trade period.

[Greystache]

2. You have your view through what you read in the media, I have my view from Eade over dinner.

Hardly impartial- Yeah it was everyone else's fault but mine, as usual.

An assistant coach doesn't force a mature superstar who wants to rest because there's something wrong with his body to play on and tell him to toughen up. That's the senior coach's call, that was not Montgomery. And that's not from the media.

It's pretty clear Lake is pissed off with the club and has been for sometime. He gave us an ultimatum and we chose the slightly better one for us.

[bornadog]

What does Eade have to do with this?

Are you sure you want to bring Eade's name into this after the way he treated a 'club champion, especially whilst he was injured??

Did you read the posts from start to finish? Probably not with that comment.

[Hotdog60]

Can I look on the bright side and what if Brian told the club my body is shot and I may not make it though another season. We'll stitch up the Hawks and I'll get you another first round pick as a going away present. Go Dogs...:D

[bornadog]

It's pretty clear Lake is pissed off with the club and has been for sometime. He gave us an ultimatum and we chose the slightly better one for us.

You know that for a fact? What is your source?;)

[BornInDroopSt'54]

The only reason Lake agrees is because he was told he is no longer going to play fullback at the club next year. Now we know why he was told by Macca - because he wants to get rid of him.

Sorry, as a Bulldog supporter, I have seen so many of our champs go I am sick and tired of it.

A clubs fabric is not made up of only young and up and coming players, but also by the old champs.

Agreed that it is sad that we lose a club champion and that other clubs don't need to sink this low. The reality is though that it is not an even palying field and we need to do what it takes.
We are fighting for our lives. Must maximise our chance to build a team and I fully support the club in its brave attempt to achieve that.
We must build a team to challenge for a premiership. Brian has become part of that by being traded for a pick/player who will be contributing to the team when we are in contention. Brian himself cannot be part of that future team.

[G-Mo77]

Fuming about this trade, absolutely livid!!!!. I was in the camp to move Brian and knew he'd walk for free after next season. OK Hawks have a little leverage there but very little. Why on Earth would we bend over and trade him for just a 3rd round pick? That's basically all we got in return. Pointless, stupid and downright terrible trade for our club. An extra 3rd round pick, way to go guys. :rolleyes:

[Greystache]

You know that for a fact? What is your source?;)

Touche :)

[Jeanette54]

I am not old quite enough to remember Herb Henderson, but I rate Brian Lake and John Jillard as the two best defenders I have seen in the club in my time. Small proviso there, I kind of think of Chris Grant and Ted Whitten as forwards.

What a shame he didn't want to finish his career with us.

And what a poor deal, all round, if he did.

Thanks for some great moments Brian.

ps Honorable mention for my favourite defender: Dale Morris.

[Bulldog4life]

I am not old quite enough to remember Herb Henderson, but I rate Brian Lake and John Jillard as the two best defenders I have seen in the club in my time. Small proviso there, I kind of think of Chris Grant and Ted Whitten as forwards.

What a shame he didn't want to finish his career with us.

And what a poor deal, all round, if he did.

Thanks for some great moments Brian.

And that was why he was traded.

[Greystache]

Fuming about this trade, absolutely livid!!!!. I was in the camp to move Brian and knew he'd walk for free after next season. OK Hawks have a little leverage there but very little. Why on Earth would we bend over and trade him for just a 3rd round pick? That's basically all we got in return. Pointless, stupid and downright terrible trade for our club. An extra 3rd round pick, way to go guys. :rolleyes:

Whay does everyone keep saying we got a 3rd round pick? Hawthorn's 3rd pick is in the 60's.

We got Hawthorn's 1st and 2nd round picks in exchange for our 2nd round pick.

[WBFC4FFC]

A good trade, as long as we don't have to pay any of his contract!

[Bulldog4life]

Whay does everyone keep saying we got a 3rd round pick? Hawthorn's 3rd pick is in the 60's.

We got Hawthorn's 1st and 2nd round picks in exchange for our 2nd round pick.

Maybe it suits their argument.:rolleyes:

[G-Mo77]

I honestly don't care what round they are in Greystache we moved up 6 places with one and gained another. 3 weeks of negotiating and caved on Day 1 with the first offer. It's pathetic!

[BulldogBelle]

will posters stop referring to him as an AA full back!!!
He no longer outputs at an AA level and his body and ongoing injuries will see that his output declines further in the coming two years. No great loss as far as Im concerned.
Im happy the club is being shrewd with this one.
See it as payback for the hawks getting rid of rawlings when they knew his knee was screwed.

[G-Mo77]

Maybe it suits their argument.:rolleyes:

I wanted to explore a trade with Lake B4L, just pissed we got bugger all for him.

[LostDoggy]

That's one way of looking at it - hasty and ill-conceived are other ways of looking at it. We're 1 day into a 3 week trade period. We have a player under contract being heavily courted by a premiership contender. Forget about next year - right now, Lake has significant currency for Hawthorn and the only way to get him to Glenferrie is through a trade. As Pelican has done on numerous occasions, we could have let Hawthorn simmer on this offer and come back with a counter-offer, like pick 21 on its own for example.

Anyway good to see you back TAMA - you've been missed on woof.


Another way you could look at it is it sends a clear message to the playing group that if you want to leave and don't value the direction the club is going, then it doesn't matter who you are.

His wage is ridiculous considering his output and anything around the 40 pick mark is speculative at best so i'm not to fazed by the shuffling of later picks.

I hold my position that this is good for the club. It's a real paradigm shift away from appeasing individuals whio think they can hold the club to ransom, it doesn't pay to have a bevvy of club champions over a generation and only one premiership to show for it.

I've been waiting for someone with balls big enough to do something like this for 20 years. Team first, even if it means losing one of your best players who doesn't want to be there anymore (albeit a slow broken down one). Im backing Macca on this one.

Sure our performances have been rancid this year, but building a team and culture from the bottom up is a slow process that opens up many cracks and reveals many white elephants.

Great chatting Sedat, you are a sage on this board my friend!:cool:

[Sedat]

Maybe it suits their argument.:rolleyes:
From a PR perspective it suits the club's argument that we traded Lake for a 1st round draft pick. The truth as always is somewhere in between - we get a 6 spot upgrade in the 20's and we also get a pick in the early 40's for Lake. In terms of actual new draft picks that we didn't previously have, the only one is pick 41.

[G-Mo77]

From a PR perspective it suits the club's argument that we traded Lake for a 1st round draft pick. The truth as always is somewhere in between - we get a 6 spot upgrade in the 20's and we also get a pick in the early 40's for Lake. In terms of actual new draft picks that we didn't previously have, the only one is pick 41.

Exactly. When you break it down we almost gave him away.

[Desipura]

Posters, go back to the tapes and watch all the games where we copped hidings and watch how bad Lake was.
I vividly recall the Sydney game where he was very very ordinary.
If the Hawks are taking over his contract, I will be happy.

[Bulldog4life]

I wanted to explore a trade with Lake B4L, just pissed we got bugger all for him.

I respect your opinion GMo but in my mind it was a fair trade providing that the Hawks are paying all his salary.

[bornadog]

Posters, go back to the tapes and watch all the games where we copped hidings and watch how bad Lake was.
I vividly recall the Sydney game where he was very very ordinary.
If the Hawks are taking over his contract, I will be happy.

Yes go back and see how bad the whole team was. Lake still took over 160 marks for the season, third highest in the AFL. I think you will find the whole team was crap.

[Ozza]

Another way you could look at it is it sends a clear message to the playing group that if you want to leave and don't value the direction the club is going, then it doesn't matter who you are.

His wage is ridiculous considering his output and anything around the 40 pick mark is speculative at best so i'm not to fazed by the shuffling of later picks.

I hold my position that this is good for the club. It's a real paradigm shift away from appeasing individuals whio think they can hold the club to ransom, it doesn't pay to have a bevvy of club champions over a generation and only one premiership to show for it.

I've been waiting for someone with balls big enough to do something like this for 20 years. Team first, even if it means losing one of your best players who doesn't want to be there anymore (albeit a slow broken down one). Im backing Macca on this one.

Sure our performances have been rancid this year, but building a team and culture from the bottom up is a slow process that opens up many cracks and reveals many white elephants.

Great chatting Sedat, you are a sage on this board my friend!:cool:

Great post TAMA. Good stuff.

[Bulldog4life]

From a PR perspective it suits the club's argument that we traded Lake for a 1st round draft pick. The truth as always is somewhere in between - we get a 6 spot upgrade in the 20's and we also get a pick in the early 40's for Lake. In terms of actual new draft picks that we didn't previously have, the only one is pick 41.

Again in my opinion I am happy with the trade.

[Desipura]

Yes go back and see how bad the whole team was.
How many times do I have to post this, your leaders need to stand up when the game is not going according to plan.

[G-Mo77]

I respect your opinion GMo but in my mind it was a fair trade providing that the Hawks are paying all his salary.

We're going to have to overpay some players now to get to 95% salary cap (Can someone confirm that) because Brian's contract is off the books. His salary makes no difference in 2013.

[bornadog]

How many times do I have to post this, your leaders need to stand up when the game is not going according to plan.

Oh sorry Desi, the whole team playing crap football was Lakes fault.

[bornadog]

We're going to have to overpay some players now to get to 95% salary cap (Can someone confirm that) because Brian's contract is off the books. His salary makes no difference in 2013.

Pick 21 to Collingwood to pay Dawes some big bucks, thats what will happen.

[Remi Moses]

I respect your opinion GMo but in my mind it was a fair trade providing that the Hawks are paying all his salary.

Reading between the lines it looks that way.
Again reading between the lines it sounds like Brian wanted a trade.

[Greystache]

Another way you could look at it is it sends a clear message to the playing group that if you want to leave and don't value the direction the club is going, then it doesn't matter who you are.

His wage is ridiculous considering his output and anything around the 40 pick mark is speculative at best so i'm not to fazed by the shuffling of later picks.

I hold my position that this is good for the club. It's a real paradigm shift away from appeasing individuals whio think they can hold the club to ransom, it doesn't pay to have a bevvy of club champions over a generation and only one premiership to show for it.

I've been waiting for someone with balls big enough to do something like this for 20 years. Team first, even if it means losing one of your best players who doesn't want to be there anymore (albeit a slow broken down one). Im backing Macca on this one.

Sure our performances have been rancid this year, but building a team and culture from the bottom up is a slow process that opens up many cracks and reveals many white elephants.

Great chatting Sedat, you are a sage on this board my friend!:cool:

Great post TAMA.

We need not only a change in culture from the club but also from our supporters. We celebrate individuals and mediocre short term wins, yet we turn on the club when we try to build for the long term. I think we'll come out the other side a better club, but it's going to be a bumpy ride for now.

[G-Mo77]

Pick 21 to Collingwood to pay Dawes some big bucks, thats what will happen.

And what a waste of $500K that would be. I would have rathered Lake play out 2013 and walk for nothing than pay that bum for 2 - 3 years and get Collingwood out of a jam.

[Greystache]

We're going to have to overpay some players now to get to 95% salary cap (Can someone confirm that) because Brian's contract is off the books. His salary makes no difference in 2013.

Or we use the cash to chase a gun player who'll still be with us next premiership tilt.

[bornadog]

And what a waste of $500K that would be. I would have rathered Lake play out 2013 and walk for nothing than pay that bum for 2 - 3 years and get Collingwood out of a jam.

All the mail is we are chasing Dawes and Collingwood want something decent for him.

[G-Mo77]

Or we use the cash to chase a gun player who'll still be with us next premiership tilt.

Which FA's are available for next season that are going to do that? No one. The contract is a non factor. The only positive could be is a renegotiation of some contracts and heavily front load them to absorb another player salary down the track.

[Ozza]

Agree Greystache. I'm preparing myself to be patient as Brendan steers the ship. Plenty are jumping off because they can't handle a couple of seasons down the bottom. I agree with his plans to not cut corners and do things properly - even if it makes it more painful in the short term.

We've been waiting 58 years for a second flag....I'd rather we dedicated ourselves to trying to win one in 5 or 6 years - than try and make finals next year or 2014, and then fill gaps once more long serving players retire.

[Eastdog]

Ultimately Macca is looking long term for our future and even said he will be focusing more on the draft. I think Brian wanted to go to a team that was in a premiership window like Hawthorn are at the moment. I don't agree in getting rid off Lake because he is one of the veterans at our club that can guide the youngsters. KPP players are very hard to find and when you strike one like Lake its worth gold. I hope our recruiting staff know what they are doing.

[chef]

Which FA's are available for next season that are going to do that? No one. The contract is a non factor. The only positive could be is a renegotiation of some contracts and heavily front load them to absorb another player salary down the track.

They don't only have to be FA's. We should be going after young guns.

[G-Mo77]

They don't only have to be FA's. We should be going after young guns.

Which young guns are going to want to come here next year? I doubt there would be a long line.

[LostDoggy]

Great post TAMA.

We need not only a change in culture from the club but also from our supporters. We celebrate individuals and mediocre short term wins,yet we turn on the club when we try to build for the long term. I think we'll come out the other side a better club, but it's going to be a bumpy ride for now.

Spot on. I would further argue that our club has never taken a long term approach due to the pain involved in turning a culture upside down and the effect it has on memberships.

We are a fickle bunch at the kennel and our vision has dared to stray from the short term, both at a club and supporter level. I love the temerity of someone who can look that in the eye and not get scared by changing it, someone who believes in changing it totally. That's how you get other to believe in it totally!

[chef]

Which young guns are going to want to come here next year? I doubt there would be a long line.

You never know, if you wave enough $$$ they may come.

[Dry Rot]

Anyone know why we had to do this on day one?

[chef]

Anyone know why we had to do this on day one?

Maybe we just wanted to move him on as quickly as possible.

[LostDoggy]

Fair enough if the issue is more with the specifics of the trade, rather than the fact that we got rid of Lake.

I think it would have been great if we could have got an earlier first round pick, but can't imagine it would have happened.

Doesn't help that Hawthorn are the minor premiers does it?


But he doesn't want to stay(I wish he did). He wants to play finals.

So compared to losing him for a 2nd or 3rd round pick(or nothing at the end of next year) I would say it is an awesome deal.

We now have 3 first round picks.

We got a first round pick, albeit Pick 21, but it's not Hawthorns problem that they finished top. Now, looking at it from a Hawthorn view, they gave up their first round pick for a 31 year old defender past his prime, that they could have had next year for free.


Great post TAMA.

We need not only a change in culture from the club but also from our supporters. We celebrate individuals and mediocre short term wins, yet we turn on the club when we try to build for the long term. I think we'll come out the other side a better club, but it's going to be a bumpy ride for now.

It's like you crawled into my brain. Totally agree with every single letter.

I'm shattered to see Lake go, but happy with the trade. He's 31 guys. We're not Essendon, ok?

[G-Mo77]

Anyone know why we had to do this on day one?

Would love to know why as well. Maybe Hawthorn spun it like the WB are spinning it to the fans. We got a first and second round pick. WOO HOO!

Translated to: We moved 6 places to get into the first round and got a late 2nd round pick. BOO HOO!

[Mofra]

Anyone know why we had to do this on day one?
You wouldn't be the only one asking the question. The speed in which this was done makes me wonder if we really did canvass all the best possible trades for him.

It's not trading Lake out that has me worried, it's the value we get in exchange.

[Bulldog4life]

Doesn't help that Hawthorn are the minor premiers does it?



We got a first round pick, albeit Pick 21, but it's not Hawthorns problem that they finished top. Now, looking at it from a Hawthorn view, they gave up their first round pick for a 31 year old defender past his prime, that they could have had next year for free.



It's like you crawled into my brain. Totally agree with every single letter.

I'm shattered to see Lake go, but happy with the trade. He's 31 guys. We're not Essendon, ok?

That made me laugh.:D

[Bulldog4life]

Would love to know why as well. Maybe Hawthorn spun it like the WB are spinning it to the fans. We got a first and second round pick. WOO HOO!

Translated to: We moved 6 places to get into the first round and got a late 2nd round pick. BOO HOO!

Beats a third round pick.;)

[GVGjr]

I'm never happy to trade contracted players especially guys of the ability of Lake but there must be more to this than meets the eye.

I don't think the deal is a good one either but we have a list manager who would have done the analysis and they have made the decision.

The bonus is that we will have a lot of money in the cap to explore other options.

[ledge]

Anyone know why we had to do this on day one?

Apparently they had been in talks a couple of weeks, maybe it was all sorted then.

[LostDoggy]

We need to consolidate with these draft picks. I am gutted that Lake has left, but thats life. I am not convinced about Macca as yet but I can can assure you all of one thing next year. Bottom 4!!

[GVGjr]

Anyone know why we had to do this on day one?

No one will know exactly why but I'll speculate that it will be to free us up to push something else through.


We lose a significant amount of money off the salary cap with more to come next year with Sherman.

This has to provide us with a lot of list management opportunities.

[anfo27]

Surely we are on the hook for some of Lakes salary? no way they can fit Lakes wage into their salary cap.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

No one will know exactly why but I'll speculate that it will be to free us up to push something else through.


We lose a significant amount of money off the salary cap with more to come next year with Sherman.

This has to provide us with a lot of list management opportunities.

I just hope it's not pick 21 and a truckload of cash for Dawes.
If it's Mitch Brown for pick 21, then that may be worth exploring.

[GVGjr]

I just hope it pick 21 and a truckload of cash for Dawes.
If it's Mitch Brown for pick 21, then that may be worth exploring.

Isn't Dawes?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Isn't Dawes?

I personally don't rate Dawes. I think paying a 1st round pick for him is overs.
I think he's the classic type guy who can contribute in a top quality team, but who would struggle in a ordinary side, like we currently are.
Also he is a very unreliable shot for goal, just what we don't need more of.

[craigsahibee]

Surely we are on the hook for some of Lakes salary? no way they can fit Lakes wage into their salary cap.

According to Marty Pask (Lake's Manager) on SEN this afternoon, Hawthorn are covering the entire contract amount. We don't need to pay a cent. I must admit I felt a little happier when I heard this.

[GVGjr]

I personally don't rate Dawes. I think paying a 1st round pick for him is overs.
I think he's the classic type guy who can contribute in a top quality team, but who would struggle in a ordinary side, like we currently are.
Also he is a very unreliable shot for goal, just what we don't need more of.

Sorry your first post wasn't clear.

I'm not in the pro Dawes camp either but I have a sneaking suspicion that we are interested.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I personally don't rate Dawes. I think paying a 1st round pick for him is overs.
I think he's the classic type guy who can contribute in a top quality team, but who would struggle in a ordinary side, like we currently are.
Also he is a very unreliable shot for goal, just what we don't need more of.

I'd personally take Dawes over Brown

21 for Brown for me is massively overpaying

Given Collingwood dont seem to really want Dawes or want to pay him his contract Im not even sure I'd commit pick 21 to him

[LostDoggy]

I'm not in the pro Dawes camp either but I have a sneaking suspicion that we are interested.

What makes you say this?
Everything we seem to read is about development and no trading for players.

[GVGjr]

What makes you say this?
Everything we seem to read is about development and no trading for players.

I think we have cleared the salary cap room for a reason and I think there is some merit in getting a big bodied player to play alongside of Jones.

It will be an interesting few days

[LostDoggy]

I have two footy player fridge magnets - Luke Darcy and Brian Harris (yes, Harris - I've it for ages). Can't believe he's gone. I go for the sentimentality of barracking for a team - I don't really understand all the picks and trade values, just sad that a long serving player is leaving. So disappointing that Lake didn't want to finish out his days in the red, white and blue but I don't feel the same animosity towards his decision as I did towards Nathan Brown's. I'm grateful to read all the posters' comments that say this is a positive move given that Lake didn't want to stay and he's getting on in years. But it's still sad news for me.

[Eastdog]

I've mentioned this somewhere before but what about going for a Jay Schultz type of player. I reckon that is someone who would fit into our team quite well especially because we jack a forward presence which we desperately a crying out for. Who now will be the number 1 full back next season. Roughead?

[Eastdog]

I have two footy player fridge magnets - Luke Darcy and Brian Harris (yes, Harris - I've it for ages). Can't believe he's gone. I go for the sentimentality of barracking for a team - I don't really understand all the picks and trade values, just sad that a long serving player is leaving. So disappointing that Lake didn't want to finish out his days in the red, white and blue but I don't feel the same animosity towards his decision as I did towards Nathan Brown's. I'm grateful to read all the posters' comments that say this is a positive move given that Lake didn't want to stay and he's getting on in years. But it's still sad news for me.

Collingwood supporters would have the most animosity towards Mick Malthouse like we did when Terry Wallace just let us like that.

[Mantis]

Collingwood supporters would have the most animosity towards Mick Malthouse like we did when Terry Wallace just let us like that.

That isn't corrrect.

Collingwood sacked MM... Wallace walked out on us.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I think we have cleared the salary cap room for a reason and I think there is some merit in getting a big bodied player to play alongside of Jones.

It will be an interesting few days

You think its Dawes is the feeling im getting?

[Desipura]

According to Marty Pask (Lake's Manager) on SEN this afternoon, Hawthorn are covering the entire contract amount. We don't need to pay a cent. I must admit I felt a little happier when I heard this.

Thanks for this, that's what I needed confirmed, well done dogs!

[GVGjr]

Collingwood supporters would have the most animosity towards Mick Malthouse like we did when Terry Wallace just let us like that.

They have that animosity towards him because he spent the better part of this year having a crack at the club.

As Mantis pointed out Wallace walked out on a contact because he thought he had a better one already in place.

[Eastdog]

That isn't corrrect.

Collingwood sacked MM... Wallace walked out on us.

That's what I meant Mantis with Wallace he walked out on us. Malthouse went to Carlton and that's why I think they have animosity the Collingwood fans as he didn't go through with what they agreed and pulled out of it.

[ratsmac]

I'm numb! Shattered he's gone but happy we got something for a player who by the sound of things, wanted out. Not overly happy with the price.
Who we pick up is either genius of disaster!
Is Sam Reid available for trade. If so try pry him out of Sydney instead of a hack like Dawes.

[bornadog]

This is the last thing I am going to say on this subject as I have vented my spleen enough, but I want to explain, why I am gutted by this decision.

Clubs are made up of many different people, the players, the administrators, the coaches etc etc. Players are also made up of young players just drafted, legends, guns, strugglers, hard workers, characters etc etc.

When a new young player comes to the club, they are often in awe of the legends of the club. Take a young Wallis who is 19 years old.

In 2006, in front of our second biggest crowd in our history at the MCG, here is Lake playing in a winning final against Collingwood. Wallis probably a 13 year old kid, screaming his lungs out, barracking for the dogs maybe even had Brian's number on his back. Fast forward to 2011 and here he is playing along side an AA Fullback, one of the best we have had at our club. Playing and training along side a Lake or Boyd lifts players and they have more worth than just playing in a game. They maybe older now and not as fast as they once were, but their experience is irreplaceable.

Clubs need their best players to stick with the club, its the very fabric that make up the club. Champions of the game. They are there every day at training, working with the kids, advising them, telling them how to play the game, where to position themselves.

Clubs need these guys to help develop a winning culture.

I have been following the dogs for a long time and have seen so many past greats just let go, I can name:

Dempsey
Quinlan,
Barry Round,
Templeton
Hardie

all brownlow medalists

Hawkins, Bisset, and many many more and now Lake.

A lot of the younger posters here don't care about the history and culture of clubs, they just want to get rid of players at 30 and bring in the young. Well that path doesn't work, have a look at the Richmonds and Melbournes of the world.

You may agree or disagree, you may say Lake wanted out, but ask yourself, why would he? We can all speculate about that but at the end of the day the club needs to manage players and look after them.

[Mitcha]

This is the last thing I am going to say on this subject as I have vented my spleen enough, but I want to explain, why I am gutted by this decision.

Clubs are made up of many different people, the players, the administrators, the coaches etc etc. Players are also made up of young players just drafted, legends, guns, strugglers, hard workers, characters etc etc.

When a new young player comes to the club, they are often in awe of the legends of the club. Take a young Wallis who is 19 years old.

In 2006, in front of our second biggest crowd in our history at the MCG, here is Lake playing in a winning final against Collingwood. Wallis probably a 13 year old kid, screaming his lungs out, barracking for the dogs maybe even had Brian's number on his back. Fast forward to 2011 and here he is playing along side an AA Fullback, one of the best we have had at our club. Playing and training along side a Lake or Boyd lifts players and they have more worth than just playing in a game. They maybe older now and not as fast as they once were, but their experience is irreplaceable.

Clubs need their best players to stick with the club, its the very fabric that make up the club. Champions of the game. They are there every day at training, working with the kids, advising them, telling them how to play the game, where to position themselves.

Clubs need these guys to help develop a winning culture.

I have been following the dogs for a long time and have seen so many past greats just let go, I can name:

Dempsey
Quinlan,
Barry Round,
Templeton
Hardie

all brownlow medalists

Hawkins, Bisset, and many many more and now Lake.

A lot of the younger posters here don't care about the history and culture of clubs, they just want to get rid of players at 30 and bring in the young. Well that path doesn't work, have a look at the Richmonds and Melbournes of the world.

You may agree or disagree, you may say Lake wanted out, but ask yourself, why would he? We can all speculate about that but at the end of the day the club needs to manage players and look after them.
Quality post mate, we all feel your passion for the footy club, but bottom line is he was probably walking out on us at end of 2013 and we would get SFA as compensation.

[bornadog]

Quality post mate, we all feel your passion for the footy club, but bottom line is he was probably walking out on us at end of 2013 and we would get SFA as compensation.

Thanks, but I don't agree he would have walked next year. Read the last sentence, that's what should happen.

[MrMahatma]

Hasn't Lake wanted out for a couple of years? Wasn't he close to walking last year? I remember an interview with him late last year where he was far from convincing about whether he wanted to play on at the Dogs in 2012, let alone 2013 and beyond.

If he didn't want to be there, legend or not (and I'm a massive fan of the guy), then you can hardly argue he'd be a good mentor for the young kids, nor can you argue he was any real value to us on the field building a team first culture.

All speculation. If he wanted to stay at the Dogs and we're just moving him on cause he's old, then that's no good in my opinion. But if he wanted out, which from the very far outside looking in I think he did, then I reckon it's the right call.

And those comparing our trading with Pelchen - maybe this is a Jon Hay type deal?

[Desipura]

Bad, you asked why would Lake want out? Possibly to play in a premiership.
Don't forget he held us to ransom in the last contract negotiations.

[Remi Moses]

According to Marty Pask (Lake's Manager) on SEN this afternoon, Hawthorn are covering the entire contract amount. We don't need to pay a cent. I must admit I felt a little happier when I heard this.

Interesting, I heard Mark Evans from Hawthorn say they've negotiated a new contract for Brian.Don't know what to believe personally.
Would be nice if someone from the club was up front with an interview with the various Media outlets!! Ballsy move from the club.

[G-Mo77]

Interesting, I heard Mark Evans from Hawthorn say they've negotiated a new contract for Brian.Don't know what to believe personally.
Would be nice if someone from the club was up front with an interview with the various Media outlets!! Ballsy move from the club.

Heard that as well. Lake now has a 2 year deal and the club has an option on a 3rd.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Thanks, but I don't agree he would have walked next year. Read the last sentence, that's what should happen.

You may well be right Bad and this trade is one that has fired up a lot of dogs

We will only know in time if it was the right move, and regardless it doesn't mean we will like it

[Topdog]

This is the last thing I am going to say on this subject as I have vented my spleen enough, but I want to explain, why I am gutted by this decision.

snip

Mate when you get rid of the emotion and type like that it is a very good thing. Well said and a sad day for the club (I was open to trading him but for what we got it just isn't worth it)

[Ghost Dog]

Hasn't Lake wanted out for a couple of years? Wasn't he close to walking last year? I remember an interview with him late last year where he was far from convincing about whether he wanted to play on at the Dogs in 2012, let alone 2013 and beyond.

If he didn't want to be there, legend or not (and I'm a massive fan of the guy), then you can hardly argue he'd be a good mentor for the young kids, nor can you argue he was any real value to us on the field building a team first culture.
All speculation. If he wanted to stay at the Dogs and we're just moving him on cause he's old, then that's no good in my opinion. But if he wanted out, which from the very far outside looking in I think he did, then I reckon it's the right call.

And those comparing our trading with Pelchen - maybe this is a Jon Hay type deal?

Well from what Doc was saying, the way he was playing with his bloody phone during Boyd's acceptance speech is hardly sterling role modeling for the next gen.

[Ghost Dog]

Sorry your first post wasn't clear.

I'm not in the pro Dawes camp either but I have a sneaking suspicion that we are interested.

Says in theage we have put in an offer for Dawes along with two other clubs.
Dawes couldn't hit the side of a battleship, although he does turn like one.

[EasternWest]

This is the last thing I am going to say on this subject as I have vented my spleen enough, but I want to explain, why I am gutted by this decision.

Clubs are made up of many different people, the players, the administrators, the coaches etc etc. Players are also made up of young players just drafted, legends, guns, strugglers, hard workers, characters etc etc.

When a new young player comes to the club, they are often in awe of the legends of the club. Take a young Wallis who is 19 years old.

In 2006, in front of our second biggest crowd in our history at the MCG, here is Lake playing in a winning final against Collingwood. Wallis probably a 13 year old kid, screaming his lungs out, barracking for the dogs maybe even had Brian's number on his back. Fast forward to 2011 and here he is playing along side an AA Fullback, one of the best we have had at our club. Playing and training along side a Lake or Boyd lifts players and they have more worth than just playing in a game. They maybe older now and not as fast as they once were, but their experience is irreplaceable.

Clubs need their best players to stick with the club, its the very fabric that make up the club. Champions of the game. They are there every day at training, working with the kids, advising them, telling them how to play the game, where to position themselves.

Clubs need these guys to help develop a winning culture.

I have been following the dogs for a long time and have seen so many past greats just let go, I can name:

Dempsey
Quinlan,
Barry Round,
Templeton
Hardie

all brownlow medalists

Hawkins, Bisset, and many many more and now Lake.

A lot of the younger posters here don't care about the history and culture of clubs, they just want to get rid of players at 30 and bring in the young. Well that path doesn't work, have a look at the Richmonds and Melbournes of the world.

You may agree or disagree, you may say Lake wanted out, but ask yourself, why would he? We can all speculate about that but at the end of the day the club needs to manage players and look after them.

I don't always agree with you, and I don't agree with everything you've said here, but I appreciate the passion and effort you've gone to with this post.

Bring on 2013. Or maybe 2014 ;).

[anfo27]

According to Marty Pask (Lake's Manager) on SEN this afternoon, Hawthorn are covering the entire contract amount. We don't need to pay a cent. I must admit I felt a little happier when I heard this.

If thats the case then i certainly feel better about the deal.

[AndrewP6]

i don't always agree with you, and i don't agree with everything you've said here, but i appreciate the passion and effort you've gone to with this post.

Bring on 2013. Or maybe 2014 ;).

2016? :)

[Cyberdoggie]

Sorry, as a Bulldog supporter, I have seen so many of our champs go I am sick and tired of it.

A clubs fabric is not made up of only young and up and coming players, but also by the old champs.

While admirable, you could also argue that is also a big factor in our failure as a club.
No one idolizes their heroes more than WB supporters, perhaps so much that it is to the deteriment of the team/club in achieving success.

I'm dissapointed to see him go but in a year or two i'll be much happier when we see Brian retire and the players we got for the trade just starting to kick on with a whole career ahead of them.

Certainly sad to see him go though.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

If we trade for Dawes, I'll watch our games from home.

[LostDoggy]

I dont believe Dawes is the answer gents. He will be the main target and take the oppositions best defender. It will be a slaughter, he cant beat the oppositions second best. I say lets start from scratch. But I say this............If GWS or GC win a flag before us, I will be pi$$ed!!!

[The Adelaide Connection]

There are only two things that make me feel easier about this saga:

1, We know the state of Brian's body (and I don't wish injury on anyone, let alone a former champion of this club) and we traded him because we know that he is going to struggle.

2, There was a post by a Woofer a few years ago who was lucky enough to be present with the Bulldogs on draft day.

I can't remember who the woofer was or when it was, but basically the poster was shocked about how the Bulldogs brains trust already knew (almost exactly) the order players would go in in the early rounds. So maybe we know that we had to get 21 off the Hawks in order to get someone we desperately want.

Time will tell I guess.

[LostDoggy]

.

I'm dissapointed to see him go but in a year or two i'll be much happier when we see Brian retire and the players we got for the trade just starting to kick on with a whole career ahead of them.

Certainly sad to see him go though.

I agree, everyone is a winner here. Well we will know in a couple of years.

I'd be surprised if Lake plays a full season next year.

[LostDoggy]

If we trade for Dawes, I'll watch our games from home.

You are allowed to criticize if you do ;)

[Doc26]

There are only two things that make me feel easier about this saga:

1, We know the state of Brian's body (and I don't wish injury on anyone, let alone a former champion of this club) and we traded him because we know that he is going to struggle.

2, There was a post by a Woofer a few years ago who was lucky enough to be present with the Bulldogs on draft day.

I can't remember who the woofer was or when it was, but basically the poster was shocked about how the Bulldogs brains trust already knew (almost exactly) the order players would go in in the early rounds. So maybe we know that we had to get 21 off the Hawks in order to get someone we desperately want.

Time will tell I guess.

Good observation. This may well be a telling point that shouldn't be lost. We may well have only gained 6 spots to 21 but the difference is that it is now a first round selection which Clubs are more protective of giving up, and rightly so, than their 2nd round.

[bornadog]

While admirable, you could also argue that is also a big factor in our failure as a club.
No one idolizes their heroes more than WB supporters, perhaps so much that it is to the deteriment of the team/club in achieving success.

Turn that around and maybe that's why we have failed because we lose so many good players.

I don't see the Hawks, the Pies, the Essendons losing their champion players.

[1eyedog]

I am not old quite enough to remember Herb Henderson, but I rate Brian Lake and John Jillard as the two best defenders I have seen in the club in my time. Small proviso there, I kind of think of Chris Grant and Ted Whitten as forwards.

What a shame he didn't want to finish his career with us.

And what a poor deal, all round, if he did.

Thanks for some great moments Brian.

ps Honorable mention for my favourite defender: Dale Morris.

Peter Foster went all right too.

Don't know what to make of this, there has obviously been some pretty frank discussions behind closed doors. I think I'll wait to see what comes out of tomorrow before I pass judgement.

[Sedat]

1, We know the state of Brian's body (and I don't wish injury on anyone, let alone a former champion of this club) and we traded him because we know that he is going to struggle.
Playing devil's advocate here, Lake is a better injury risk than either of Dale Morris and Tom Williams down back. The injury thing is a bit of a myth - take 2011 out of the eqution and Lake has been a very durable player for over 10 years at this level.

[1eyedog]

If we trade for Dawes, I'll watch our games from home.

Ditto, he makes Jade Rawlings look like a champion

[mjp]

I understand the 'footy is a business, list management' side of the argument. On that side of it, I always maintain that the "winner" of any trade is the team that ends up with the best player...Hawthorn have the best full-back in the game and we have 'hope'. Advantage Hawks.

The argument that says 'Next year he would walk' is fatally flawed. Brian is a complicated person. I don't think anyone could predict what he will be thinking/feeling this time next year. To me, conceding now that he was 'GONE' anyway is sending a message to the rest of the players (not to mention supporters) that 2013 is already in the books as a failure and we are not expecting too many wins...after all, winning players are happy players.

The argument that says 'He only has 2 years left' is fatally flawed. A happy Brian could play for another 5 years. He does not rely on athleticism to play - as many here have mentioned, he is a zoning player who doesn't play on anyone anyway. So why exactly will he decline so rapidly??

All in all, to me we just have so few 'blue chip' players. Lake is (was!) still one of them. And we seem to have let him go on day one of the trade period without a real fight. I am sad he is gone. I am disappointed we seem to be conceding the 2013 season before it has even began...and I am really, really, really hoping we know what we are doing.

[The Adelaide Connection]

Playing devil's advocate here, Lake is a better injury risk than either of Dale Morris and Tom Williams down back. The injury thing is a bit of a myth - take 2011 out of the eqution and Lake has been a very durable player for over 10 years at this level.

Yeah I agree, just clutching at positivity straws. After his operations in 2011 I tend to have a feeling that his form this year, which was very good, was only his "year after" form (similar to when players come back from leg breaks and acl's) and next year will be even better.

Gosh I hope pick 21 is the next Chris Grant. No pressure.

[1eyedog]

Turn that around and maybe that's why we have failed because we lose so many good players.

I don't see the Hawks, the Pies, the Essendons losing their champion players.

Look it's just a reality really isn't it.

I'm not going to spend too much time on this but

Essendon - Paul Salmon to Hawthorn and Roger Merritt to Brisbane

Collingwood - Peter Moore to Melbourne

Lastly, imagine Hawthorn supporters dismay when their second/perhaps third best player ever went to Collingwood and then Sydney.

You could pull out a heap from each club.

[bornadog]

Look it's just a reality really isn't it.

I'm not going to spend too much time on this but

Essendon - Paul Salmon to Hawthorn and Roger Merritt to Brisbane

Collingwood - Peter Moore to Melbourne

Lastly, imagine Hawthorn supporters dismay when their second/perhaps third best player ever went to Collingwood and then Sydney.

You could pull out a heap from each club.

Not as many as the Dogs. We lost how many Brownlow medallists, plus gave away three players that went on to get Brownlows. No other club in history has done what we have.

[LongWait]

I understand the 'footy is a business, list management' side of the argument. On that side of it, I always maintain that the "winner" of any trade is the team that ends up with the best player...Hawthorn have the best full-back in the game and we have 'hope'. Advantage Hawks.

The argument that says 'Next year he would walk' is fatally flawed. Brian is a complicated person. I don't think anyone could predict what he will be thinking/feeling this time next year. To me, conceding now that he was 'GONE' anyway is sending a message to the rest of the players (not to mention supporters) that 2013 is already in the books as a failure and we are not expecting too many wins...after all, winning players are happy players.

The argument that says 'He only has 2 years left' is fatally flawed. A happy Brian could play for another 5 years. He does not rely on athleticism to play - as many here have mentioned, he is a zoning player who doesn't play on anyone anyway. So why exactly will he decline so rapidly??

All in all, to me we just have so few 'blue chip' players. Lake is (was!) still one of them. And we seem to have let him go on day one of the trade period without a real fight. I am sad he is gone. I am disappointed we seem to be conceding the 2013 season before it has even began...and I am really, really, really hoping we know what we are doing.

There are a lot of unknowns in the mystery that is Brian Lake.

With respect, I think we could say that you can't know for sure any of the points that you claim make fatal flaws in the various arguments to proceed with the Lake trade. There are a lot of unprovable suppositions in both sets of arguments.

We have to accept that it's been done, like it or not, and we have to move on and hope that the player we secure with pick 21 will be a champion for a long time after Lake has retired.

[bornadog]

Not happy if this is true:


Lake, who had one year of his contract remaining, will be paid out by the Western Bulldogs because he was going to be a free agent next year anyway.


Link (http://www.footballnation.com.au/afl/afl-clubs/hawks-swoop-on-lake/)

[The Adelaide Connection]

Not happy if this is true:




Link (http://www.footballnation.com.au/afl/afl-clubs/hawks-swoop-on-lake/)

Surely not. God I hope not.

[Greystache]

Not happy if this is true:




Link (http://www.footballnation.com.au/afl/afl-clubs/hawks-swoop-on-lake/)

I'm not sure I'd place any credit in something written on that site, it's just bigfooty in a different format.

[LongWait]

There were earlier reports that Marty Pask was asked on SEN about Lake's Bulldogs contract and he said that Hawthorn will pay all of Lake's 2013 and 2014 salary on a new 2 year deal. I didn't hear it, so this is second hand.

[boydogs]

Question - who was the last 31 year old to be traded for a 2nd rounder?

I reckon we've done pretty well out of this deal. Lake wouldn't have played another final for us and maybe lasted two more years taking up a kid's spot in the side. Won't stop me missing him though, was definitely was one of my favourites.

[KT31]

There were earlier reports that Marty Pask was asked on SEN about Lake's Bulldogs contract and he said that Hawthorn will pay all of Lake's 2013 and 2014 salary on a new 2 year deal. I didn't hear it, so this is second hand.

If this is the case it is ok, but the fact he would be on the veterans list next season and only a percentage of his wage would be under our cap means we have still bolted.

[AndrewP6]

There were earlier reports that Marty Pask was asked on SEN about Lake's Bulldogs contract and he said that Hawthorn will pay all of Lake's 2013 and 2014 salary on a new 2 year deal. I didn't hear it, so this is second hand.

I found this, doesn't exactly answer the question of who pays, just that it is a whole lot less.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/hawthorn-jags-brian-lake-from-the-western-bulldogs/story-fnfll94y-1226490817177

[KT31]

I found this, doesn't exactly answer the question of who pays, just that it is a whole lot less.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/hawthorn-jags-brian-lake-from-the-western-bulldogs/story-fnfll94y-1226490817177

If this is the case,
one :isn't it illegal prior to trade talks
two : hope the Hawks never win a flag again.

[Remi Moses]

Got a new contract at Hawthorn.
Had his contract ripped up

[Maddog37]

So he wants to leave the club and get paid $200,000.00 less than if he stayed.

Doesnt sound like a man that was keen to hang around..............

[bornadog]

So he wants to leave the club and get paid $200,000.00 less than if he stayed.

Doesnt sound like a man that was keen to hang around..............

I wonder whose fault that is.

[jeemak]

I wonder whose fault that is.

So, from many reports things deteriorated between Lake, Eade and last year's coaching panel, and it's now shaping that he wanted out under the current coaching panel..............

There's a common demoninator in all of this.

[ReLoad]

I wonder whose fault that is.

Its his own fault, the guy is a genuine space cadet.

He put the loop in fruit loop.

[bornadog]

Its his own fault, the guy is a genuine space cadet.

He put the loop in fruit loop.

You know this for a fact do you.

[Desipura]

You know this for a fact do you.
Probably not, just like you do not know if Pask is spinning crap about Brian being free to walk next year.

[bornadog]

Probably not, just like you do not know if Pask is spinning crap about Brian being free to walk next year.

Desi, players only walk if they are not happy at a club. Happy players are ones that are looked after by the coach and management of the club. If we manage our players properly, they wouldn't want to go.

In Lakes case things are already coming out:

1. The club decided they don't want him at Fullback.

2. The coach barely talks to him half way through the season.

What do you expect him to do?

To call him a fruit loop, is disrespectful to a club champion.

[Desipura]

Desi, players only walk if they are not happy at a club. Happy players are ones that are looked after by the coach and management of the club. If we manage our players properly, they wouldn't want to go.

In Lakes case things are already coming out:

1. The club decided they don't want him at Fullback.

2. The coach barely talks to him half way through the season.

What do you expect him to do?

To call him a fruit loop, is disrespectful to a club champion.
Which one of the above statements by you are factual?

[bornadog]

Which one of the above statements by you are factual?

Macca told my mate in the rooms before the Brissie game that Lake won't be fullback in the future. Now confirmed by list manager on SEN.

Second one mentioned by Mantis here (http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=11176&page=13) and he has inside connections so I have no reason to doubt him.

PS: Murphy will also not play back any more.

[Desipura]

Macca told my mate in the rooms before the Brissie game that Lake won't be fullback in the future. Now confirmed by list manager on SEN.

Second one mentioned by Mantis here (http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=11176&page=13) and he has inside connections so I have no reason to doubt him.

PS: Murphy will also not play back any more.
So what if Macca said he wont play full back anymore? Perhaps he meant he wont be playing with us anymore?
Lake does his own thing down back, plays on his own terms. It worked when we were winning.
From what I can see Macca is trying to instil a team comes first approach, he believed Lake did not display these qualities.
You know what? I agree with him.

If he wants to play Murphy elsewhere, thats ok as well.

[The Underdog]

Not as many as the Dogs. We lost how many Brownlow medallists, plus gave away three players that went on to get Brownlows. No other club in history has done what we have.

How much of that has been in the past 20 years though, or even under the draft system. I get what you are saying but a lot of it is effectively ancient history. Half the kids on this site probably don't even know who Dempsey and Quinlan are let alone have seen them play. We really haven't lost that many champion players for a long time. Admittedly we lost a couple of promising kids under extraordinary circumstances (and some fault of our own on ward) but Grant, Jonno, West, Darcy and Smith all finished up with us. Last true champ I can think of that left was Hawkins and that was probably more on him than us. You could potentially argue Cameron but we did alright out of that.

[bornadog]

How much of that has been in the past 20 years though, or even under the draft system. I get what you are saying but a lot of it is effectively ancient history. Half the kids on this site probably don't even know who Dempsey and Quinlan are let alone have seen them play. We really haven't lost that many champion players for a long time. Admittedly we lost a couple of promising kids under extraordinary circumstances (and some fault of our own on ward) but Grant, Jonno, West, Darcy and Smith all finished up with us. Last true champ I can think of that left was Hawkins and that was probably more on him than us. You could potentially argue Cameron but we did alright out of that.

Ward, Harbrow, Lake, Hawkins, Cameron, Brown - last 20 years

[Twodogs]

Ward, Harbrow, Lake, Hawkins, Cameron, Brown - last 20 years


Whilst I tend to agree with you that the club has been poorly run and coached over the last couple of years almost every club would have a list like that from the last 20 years.


Dougie was cooked. He now freely acknowledges that he regrets the fact he went to Fitzroy. We were well compensated for Brown leaving even though we wasted the picks we got and it's not as if he set the world on fire at Richmond. Cameron got us the picks we got Mitch Hahn and Ryan Hargrave with-I think it's fair to say we came out in front on that one. We used the Harbrow pick on Justin Sherman. Ward was a kick in the guts and we didnt get enough compensation for him but lets wait and see what we do with the pick we got for him before we go gouging our eyes out over his leaving.

[Ghost Dog]

Spare a thought for the Adelaide Footy club. I know they have few fans here, but they have been done just as badly if not worse through a combination of factors.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Ward, Harbrow, Lake, Hawkins, Cameron, Brown - last 20 years

It is interesting to note that of the players you have listed up until Lake not one of them actually went to a successful club. The same could be said of Hardie,Dempsey,Quinlan,Bisset, Round, Templeton,Wilson, Baker etc who all never achieved the ultimate premiership success. The two exceptions however were Robert McGhie and David Thorpe, both with Richmond.

[bornadog]

It is interesting to note that of the players you have listed up until Lake not one of them actually went to a successful club. The same could be said of Hardie,Dempsey,Quinlan,Bisset, Round, Templeton,Wilson, Baker etc who all never achieved the ultimate premiership success. The two exceptions however were Robert McGhie and David Thorpe, both with Richmond.

Yes lets hope the same happens to Lake.

[KT31]

Yes lets hope the same happens to Lake.

Better still lets hope it us that knocks them out of the finals.

[LostDoggy]

Spare a thought for the Adelaide Footy club. I know they have few fans here, but they have been done just as badly if not worse through a combination of factors.

Never

[Greystache]

Ward, Harbrow, Lake, Hawkins, Cameron, Brown - last 20 years


Whilst I tend to agree with you that the club has been poorly run and coached over the last couple of years almost every club would have a list like that from the last 20 years.


Dougie was cooked. He now freely acknowledges that he regrets the fact he went to Fitzroy. We were well compensated for Brown leaving even though we wasted the picks we got and it's not as if he set the world on fire at Richmond. Cameron got us the picks we got Mitch Hahn and Ryan Hargrave with-I think it's fair to say we came out in front on that one. We used the Harbrow pick on Justin Sherman. Ward was a kick in the guts and we didnt get enough compensation for him but lets wait and see what we do with the pick we got for him before we go gouging our eyes out over his leaving.

Just off the top of my head;


Hawthorn- Brereton, Salmon, Eade, Croad, Williams, Hay, Thompson, Brown, Kennedy

Collingwood- Tarrant, Rocca, Francis, Michael, Williams,

Essendon- Salmon, Merritt, Johnson, Richards

West Coast- Judd, Cousins, Ball, Gehrig, Gardiner

Norf- Carey, McKernan, Bell, Martyn

Sydney- Jolly, Hall

[angelopetraglia]

Wrong decision. Right decision. This still makes me feel sick :(

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A4uij1pCMAA9HfU.jpg

[Twodogs]

Just off the top of my head;


Hawthorn- Brereton, Salmon, Eade, Croad, Williams, Hay, Thompson, Brown, Kennedy

Collingwood- Tarrant, Rocca, Francis, Michael, Williams,

Essendon- Salmon, Merritt, Johnson, Richards

West Coast- Judd, Cousins, Ball, Gehrig, Gardiner

Norf- Carey, McKernan, Bell, Martyn

Sydney- Jolly, Hall

Add Wanganeen to the Essendon list.

St Kilda-Lockett, Hall, Ball, Lappin, Everitt, Goddard

Carlton-Hammil, Kennedy, Jacobs, Allan, Porter, Fevola

Port-Stevens, Burgouyne, Eagleton, French, Carr

Brisbane-Akermanis, Bradshaw, Lawrence, Headland, Brennen, Rischitelli

[Remi Moses]

So the story is Brian's thrown the toys out the cot because he didn't get his way.
Seriously?:rolleyes:

[bornadog]

So the story is Brian's thrown the toys out the cot because he didn't get his way.
Seriously?:rolleyes:

You know thats BS.

[LostDoggy]

Spare a thought for the Adelaide Footy club. I know they have few fans here, but they have been done just as badly if not worse through a combination of factors.

Yes 2 premierships, a good coach and reasonable list. Poor Adelaide.

[LostDoggy]

I thought Brian was painted as a bit of a tight-arse and loved his money more than others. If that's true why would he drop 200K and for go another year of 600K+?

[jeemak]

I thought Brian was painted as a bit of a tight-arse and loved his money more than others. If that's true why would he drop 200K and for go another year of 600K+?

It's probably got something to do with him having a problem with the club, and the club having a problem with him.

Couple that with an opportunity to win a flag and there you have it.

[Ghost Dog]

31 year olds tend to drop off pretty fast. One thing to keep in mind.

[LostDoggy]

It's probably got something to do with him having a problem with the club, and the club having a problem with him.

Couple that with an opportunity to win a flag and there you have it.
Don't know.
If I had a problem with the club and I was a tight-arse. I'd hold them to ransom for all I was owed.

[jeemak]

Don't know.
If I had a problem with the club and I was a tight-arse. I'd hold them to ransom for all I was owed.

Yeah, but that would mean you'd need to play there in an environment you might not be happy with, or in a role you're not happy with.

This way Brian is a sure thing of maintaining a contract at a club with its window open, for a year beyond the expiry date of his current term with an option of a third. If all goes well it might mean he earns more dollars this way, especially if the third year is triggered.

[ReLoad]

You know this for a fact do you.

I can only go on my own personal experiences.

Taken the kids to a few family days and seen the brilliant Brian in action with the kids.
Also had the displeasure of seeing the not so brilliant space cadet Brian with the kids.

You can define Brian any way you like, but I define him as an amazingly great footballer, certainly one of the best backmen I have seen at our club, a true leader in defence who leads by example, but also someone who has had some issues which at times have affected his capacity to play football and uphold what the bulldogs stand for.

Just my .02 west footscray roubles.

[AndrewP6]

So, from many reports things deteriorated between Lake, Eade and last year's coaching panel, and it's now shaping that he wanted out under the current coaching panel..............

There's a common demoninator in all of this.

And yet, I've heard both Lake and Eade say things were fine between them. "Reports" have had Lake gone for a couple of years...they got it right eventually.

[LostDoggy]

Angelo, that picture is horrible! I have now moved my Brian fridge magnet to the side of the fridge where I can't see it. Should I throw it in the bin? I can't believe he's switched teams.

[jeemak]

And yet, I've heard both Lake and Eade say things were fine between them. "Reports" have had Lake gone for a couple of years...they got it right eventually.

I'll wait for their respective memoirs, as right now and for the short term at least it's in both of their interests to publicly give the impression they maintained a solid relationship.

Perhaps in a few years time when Eade isn't coaching and having to prove he can adapt to different personalities, and Lake isn't playing and having to prove he can be trusted to keep mum by coaching staff we'll find out how things really were between the two.

Until such time I'm sceptical, there's just too many consistent whispers about their relationship deteriorating in the latter years of Eade's tenure for me to ignore them.

Anyhow, both are gone now so it's all largely irrelevant. Only 16 weeks to go before the joys of another season roll around! :o

[LostDoggy]

Good deal, well done to the club to get another first round.

I agree, after a days deep thought. Brian's only got 1-3 years left, and he won't play finals again with us, but he may with them and we save $$$$ plus we get developing picks. get over it people, we have to rebuild & I think Macca is the bloke to do it.

[boydogs]

It's probably got something to do with him having a problem with the club, and the club having a problem with him.

Couple that with an opportunity to win a flag and there you have it.

I think they signed him for 2 years plus the option of a 3rd, whereas he only had 1 more with us.

[jeemak]

Yeah, but that would mean you'd need to play there in an environment you might not be happy with, or in a role you're not happy with.

This way Brian is a sure thing of maintaining a contract at a club with its window open, for a year beyond the expiry date of his current term with an option of a third. If all goes well it might mean he earns more dollars this way, especially if the third year is triggered.


I think they signed him for 2 years plus the option of a 3rd, whereas he only had 1 more with us.

Correct :)

Pretty good deal for him, really.

[Sedat]

Perhaps in a few years time when Eade isn't coaching and having to prove he can adapt to different personalities, and Lake isn't playing and having to prove he can be trusted to keep mum by coaching staff we'll find out how things really were between the two.
Lake certainly played the best football of his career under Rocket, and coming from being borderline scrapheap material upon Rocket's arrival at the club. I'm sure they didn't see eye to eye 100% of the time but some of the work Lake did out on the field was as good as it gets.

[Dry Rot]

Spare a thought for the Adelaide Footy club. I know they have few fans here, but they have been done just as badly if not worse through a combination of factors.

Agreed.

To paraphrase Wilde: "To lose one CHB, Mr Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness."

No, they got boned. And now Tippett.

[jeemak]

Agree 100% Sedat.

Lake played probably the most dominant FB football I've witnessed, and I was extremely glad it was for us.

There's little doubt Eade had a very large hand in developing Lake as a footballer, though that doesn't mean things between the two hadn't soured towards the end of Eade's reign.

[Ghost Dog]

Ironic is that my favorite memory is of him playing against the Hawks in 2011 ( ? )
Alistair Clarkson described that day as a purple patch the likes of which he was at a loss to counter.
Brian had the ball on a string and I reckon Buddy will be relieved he doesn't have to play on him anymore.


The other thing is, the freeagency media frenzy would have been a pain next year. Will he go? Won't he?
Maybe better to just get it done now, if he did want to leave.

[Mofra]

I thought Brian was painted as a bit of a tight-arse and loved his money more than others. If that's true why would he drop 200K and for go another year of 600K+?
He's signed for 2 years - his 2014 is likely to be on a higher wage than he would have had with us. Overall not a massive drop as much as the media like to paint it as one.

[LostDoggy]

Now I've had some time to digest this, I'm leaning more to being happy. If he wanted out, and was very likely to go next year, then at least we have achieved something from this. As someone else has posted, how would we all feel at the end of 2013 when Bwian walks and we get SFA as compensation. It's certainly a brave, tough decision and one that brings forward passion from us all. Me, I'm going to err on the positive side

[G-Mo77]

Now I've had some time to digest this, I'm leaning more to being happy. If he wanted out, and was very likely to go next year, then at least we have achieved something from this. As someone else has posted, how would we all feel at the end of 2013 when Bwian walks and we get SFA as compensation. It's certainly a brave, tough decision and one that brings forward passion from us all. Me, I'm going to err on the positive side

We got SFA in the trade anyway. Jumped 6 spots with one pick and grabbed #41 from the Hawks while gifting them #27 to take Lake from us. I'll say it again, I'm not upset Lake is gone, I was lobbying to trade him last year but the compensation we received for him is pathetic. The only thing we achieved was clubs know we'll help them by pulling our pants down when we get bent over.

[LostDoggy]

We got SFA in the trade anyway. Jumped 6 spots with one pick and grabbed #41 from the Hawks while gifting them #27 to take Lake from us. I'll say it again, I'm not upset Lake is gone, I was lobbying to trade him last year but the compensation we received for him is pathetic. The only thing we achieved was clubs know we'll help them by pulling our pants down when we get bent over.

Agree entirely

[Maddog37]

We got SFA in the trade anyway. Jumped 6 spots with one pick and grabbed #41 from the Hawks while gifting them #27 to take Lake from us. I'll say it again, I'm not upset Lake is gone, I was lobbying to trade him last year but the compensation we received for him is pathetic. The only thing we achieved was clubs know we'll help them by pulling our pants down when we get bent over.

Disagree entirely.

No other takers for Lake and he had to go. Hawks knew this as Pask the Pest was basically working for the HAwks.

We all know some older players had to go and the criteria Bmac has mentioned many times for our older guys is that they lead by example and support the kids. Brian was a one of a kind and a great player but not the best example.

Look at J Revolt now. He looks like a mini clone of Richo. Very good player but an emotional roller coaster. Brian seems the same type and I do not want our new batch of kids to be the same type as Brian(temperament only as if they could play like him I would be rapt).

[Sedat]

We got SFA in the trade anyway. Jumped 6 spots with one pick and grabbed #41 from the Hawks while gifting them #27 to take Lake from us. I'll say it again, I'm not upset Lake is gone, I was lobbying to trade him last year but the compensation we received for him is pathetic. The only thing we achieved was clubs know we'll help them by pulling our pants down when we get bent over.
Seconded. Our trade week negotiations have been very poor in the last 3 years and this trade is further evidence. Hawthorn are desperate for a flag in 2013, their key structural weakness was down back, and we had a turn-key solution to their problems on our list and safely under contract in 2013. It was therefore totally incumbent on Hawthorn to come to the party with a generous trade solution to prize away the contracted player, but it ended up being us that acted like the desperados in this negotiation.

[Maddog37]

So who is to blame Sedat?

[Sedat]

So who is to blame Sedat?
In the last 3 years? Fantasia. He's patently and obviously out of his depth.

In relation to the Lake negiotiation specifically? JMac. And on first impressions he also appears to be out of his depth in relation to trade negotiations. That's not to say he won't be a good list manager for us, but he needs a crash course on the art of negotiating so that we don't get our pants pulled down at the trade table in future.

[azabob]

In the last 3 years? Fantasia. He's patently and obviously out of his depth.

In relation to the Lake negiotiation specifically? JMac. And on first impressions he also appears to be out of his depth in relation to trade negotiations. That's not to say he won't be a good list manager for us, but he needs a crash course on the art of negotiating so that we don't get our pants pulled down at the trade table in future.

I agree we should have come out with a better result.

If JMAC does not have negotiation skills, why did we give him the job of list management? Quite bizarre, our list manager should be responsible for contract negotiations, trade negotiations, free agent negotiations. I thought it would be a key selection criteria when applying for the job.

The only thing I can think of is having Lake at the club in 2013 wasn't an option.

Either way, as you say Sedat it isn't a great start for JMAC.

[Maddog37]

So the club recognises that Fantapants is not the answer and bring in Jmac. Jmac will no doubt take time to learn on the job.

I am just not sure what point you are trying to make. We would have liked more for Lake but rarely does a trade get done where that is not the case.

Your dislike of Fantasia is patently obvious as you have stated it adnauseum. Can we look forward to more of the same with Jmac?

[jeemak]

We got SFA in the trade anyway. Jumped 6 spots with one pick and grabbed #41 from the Hawks while gifting them #27 to take Lake from us. I'll say it again, I'm not upset Lake is gone, I was lobbying to trade him last year but the compensation we received for him is pathetic. The only thing we achieved was clubs know we'll help them by pulling our pants down when we get bent over.


Seconded. Our trade week negotiations have been very poor in the last 3 years and this trade is further evidence. Hawthorn are desperate for a flag in 2013, their key structural weakness was down back, and we had a turn-key solution to their problems on our list and safely under contract in 2013. It was therefore totally incumbent on Hawthorn to come to the party with a generous trade solution to prize away the contracted player, but it ended up being us that acted like the desperados in this negotiation.


In the last 3 years? Fantasia. He's patently and obviously out of his depth.

In relation to the Lake negiotiation specifically? JMac. And on first impressions he also appears to be out of his depth in relation to trade negotiations. That's not to say he won't be a good list manager for us, but he needs a crash course on the art of negotiating so that we don't get our pants pulled down at the trade table in future.

Considering Hawthorn's most likely non-acceptance of having selection 41 as their first pick what do you believe they realistically would have parted with for Lake?

Unloading of depth players for mediocre picks to send to us wouldn't have been acceptable from our perspective, and unloading of anyone capable of securring a higher first round pick would have been counter-productive to their goal of winning a flag next year.

Lake wanted to go, and to be frank I think we were comfortable of the prospect of losing him. With this in mind, what do you both believe would have been a realistic scenario for Hawthorn to come up with if pressed harder by JMac?

[Mantis]

So the club recognises that Fantapants is not the answer and bring in Jmac. Jmac will no doubt take time to learn on the job.

I am just not sure what point you are trying to make. We would have liked more for Lake but rarely does a trade get done where that is not the case.

Your dislike of Fantasia is patently obvious as you have stated it adnauseum. Can we look forward to more of the same with Jmac?

But didn't Fantasia hire Jason?

[G-Mo77]

Lake wanted to go, and to be frank I think we were comfortable of the prospect of losing him. With this in mind, what do you both believe would have been a realistic scenario for Hawthorn to come up with if pressed harder by JMac?

We didn't press harder that's the problem right there. All I hear is we would have lost him next season, no other team was interested. So what! He was under contract at the WB for 2013 and they were desperate to buy. We held the cards and we're the ones rolling over? If we pressed harder they may have caved, they may not have. Still for a quality player like Lake I would have liked our team of negotiators to use the 3 weeks to at least try and come up with the best possible deal.

JMac and the WB media crew can spin it anyway they like. We caved at a threat from a player manager on day 1 of the trade period and got a shitty deal in the process.

[Sedat]

Your dislike of Fantasia is patently obvious as you have stated it adnauseum. Can we look forward to more of the same with Jmac?
Trade week negotiation is only one part of JMac's role - I haven't been happy with the Lake compensation outcome but I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bathwater with regard to JMac's overall roles and responsibilities. Off-loading Lake is both a prudent list management decision and a poor negotiation. For JMac's sake, it would have been a stronger statement from him to stand firm with Hawthorn on Lake's true worth and not be rushed into a decision - now all other clubs will set the bar lower with trade negotiations with the Bulldogs accordingly.

It really does pain me to criticise Fantasia but he provides so many opportunities to criticise. I simply want a far better footy operations manager at our club, someone who makes strong and sensible decisions for the betterment of the footy dept and has a far sharper attention to detail. Removing Fantasia from the responsibilities of trade week negotiations and list management is nothing but a positive move by the club, but I would like to take it a step further and replace him with someone far more competent as our head of footy ops.

[bornadog]

Trade week negotiation is only one part of JMac's role - I haven't been happy with the Lake compensation outcome but I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bathwater with regard to JMac's overall roles and responsibilities. Off-loading Lake is both a prudent list management decision and a poor negotiation. For JMac's sake, it would have been a stronger statement from him to stand firm with Hawthorn on Lake's true worth and not be rushed into a decision - now all other clubs will set the bar lower with trade negotiations with the Bulldogs accordingly.

It really does pain me to criticise Fantasia but he provides so many opportunities to criticise. I simply want a far better footy operations manager at our club, someone who makes strong and sensible decisions for the betterment of the footy dept and has a far sharper attention to detail. Removing Fantasia from the responsibilities of trade week negotiations and list management is nothing but a positive move by the club, but I would like to take it a step further and replace him with someone far more competent as our head of footy ops.

Forgetting Fantasia for a second as he would have the overall say, I thought Darlymple was the recruiter at our club, not Jmac? Jmac has to manage the list but Darlymple would be the one recruiting new players? However, having said that, trading players is whose responsibility?

[Sedat]

Considering Hawthorn's most likely non-acceptance of having selection 41 as their first pick what do you believe they realistically would have parted with for Lake?
Pick 21 on its own would have been an acceptable result. I'm quite sure West Coke will be expecting at least a top 20 pick for Mitch Brown, who is 1/10th of the key defender that Lake is. Irrespective of age, Hawthorn's needs were immediate.

[Sedat]

However, having said that, trading players is whose responsibility?
JMac's I'd have though, seeing as he is the list manager. Dalrymple selects the players in the draft and JMac manages the overall list, with both reporting through to Fantasia.

[jeemak]

Pick 21 on its own would have been an acceptable result. I'm quite sure West Coke will be expecting at least a top 20 pick for Mitch Brown, who is 1/10th of the key defender that Lake is. Irrespective of age, Hawthorn's needs were immediate.

Meaning they'd have been left with pick 41 as their first pick, and probably not worth it from their perspective.

Not sure if there's too many players on their list that they'd be willing to trade out to secure a top 30 pick either.

So eventually, we'd have been left with a mediocre player as a sweatener if we had have held out.

[bornadog]

JMac's I'd have though, seeing as he is the list manager. Dalrymple selects the players in the draft and JMac manages the overall list, with both reporting through to Fantasia.

sSgc1InSh_g

[G-Mo77]

Meaning they'd have been left with pick 41 as their first pick, and probably not worth it from their perspective.

Not sure if there's too many players on their list that they'd be willing to trade out to secure a top 30 pick either.

So eventually, we'd have been left with a mediocre player as a sweatener if we had have held out.

I'd take my first pick in the 70's if it meant winning a flag. Winning a Premiership is the goal of every team in the AFL. Hawthorn know their time is now and would have paid for it, especially with Tippett going to Sydney. Unfortunately we'll never know what they would have paid because we were happy to take the first offer. Powerful negotiators would have laughed at that offer.

[Sedat]

Meaning they'd have been left with pick 41 as their first pick, and probably not worth it from their perspective.
Their list is in fine shape - they would only be entering the ND out of obligation to have to use the minimum 3 picks, so starting at pick 41 would not have been much of an issue for them. I think you are underestimating their urgent needs for 2013 and their strong need for Lake, who has been heavily on their radar since his protracted deal negotiations with us back in 2009.

[Desipura]

Pick 21 on its own would have been an acceptable result. I'm quite sure West Coke will be expecting at least a top 20 pick for Mitch Brown, who is 1/10th of the key defender that Lake is. Irrespective of age, Hawthorn's needs were immediate.

Lake vs Tippett in the grand final, could be a nil all result.

[Hotdog60]

The other thing is we could have played hardball and if we didn't get what we wanted we keep Brian for another year and then shake his hand and see you later.

What's SS say trading is the work of the Devil.

I'm not fussed either way, I just want what's best for the Western Bulldogs and if that meant keeping Lake to fulfill his contract so be it, if with this deal they have a particular player in mind at the draft table and we need that extra pick I'm happy with that as well.

Time will tell if it's the right deal or not.

I pray it was.

[Maddog37]

Lake vs Tippett in the grand final, could be a nil all result.

Any chance the Tippett deal falls over and he goes to the preaseason draft?

[jeemak]

I'd take my first pick in the 70's if it meant winning a flag. Winning a Premiership is the goal of every team in the AFL. Hawthorn know their time is now and would have paid for it, especially with Tippett going to Sydney. Unfortunately we'll never know what they would have paid because we were happy to take the first offer. Powerful negotiators would have laughed at that offer.

I'm glad you're not planning our list then, G-Mo77. Irrespective of current ladder position, the Hawks still need to get the most out of this draft, just like all teams.

A lot has to go right for Hawthorn to make top four next year, let alone win a flag, and I think the Hawks are smart enough to know that landing one player isn't going to make all the difference to them.

[jeemak]

Their list is in fine shape - they would only be entering the ND out of obligation to have to use the minimum 3 picks, so starting at pick 41 would not have been much of an issue for them. I think you are underestimating their urgent needs for 2013 and their strong need for Lake, who has been heavily on their radar since his protracted deal negotiations with us back in 2009.

The only thing I'm maybe underestimating is the impact Lake will have on their overall game next year.

They need to improve across the board, not just on the last line. The game moves quickly, and the Hawks (like Collingwood has) might find that out sooner rather than later.

[Sedat]

They need to improve across the board, not just on the last line. The game moves quickly, and the Hawks (like Collingwood has) might find that out sooner rather than later.
Agreed, but their list has quite a bit of incremental improvement left in it as it is, and they were a kick away from a flag this year. They need some outside run and spread (Bradley Hill come on down), they needed reinforcements down back (hello Brian), and they need Max Bailey to step up and free Hale to play 2nd ruck/forward pinch hit. Other than that, their list is premiership material in 2013.

[jazzadogs]

He's signed for 2 years - his 2014 is likely to be on a higher wage than he would have had with us. Overall not a massive drop as much as the media like to paint it as one.
I'd actually be quite surprised if he is on a lot more in 2014. Buddy comes out of contract at the end of next year, and will be eligible for free agency. Putting aside the media circus that will engulf the AFL world, I would think the Hawks will be planning to have plenty of space in their cap for him.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Congratulations WOOFERS, we're $650,000 richer for trading Lake and only losing one year of service from someone who wanted out and plays with his IPhone during his captain's acceptance speech for club champion. As a bonus we have a first round pick.

[Mitcha]

We didn't press harder that's the problem right there. All I hear is we would have lost him next season, no other team was interested. So what! He was under contract at the WB for 2013 and they were desperate to buy. We held the cards and we're the ones rolling over? If we pressed harder they may have caved, they may not have. Still for a quality player like Lake I would have liked our team of negotiators to use the 3 weeks to at least try and come up with the best possible deal.

JMac and the WB media crew can spin it anyway they like. We caved at a threat from a player manager on day 1 of the trade period and got a shitty deal in the process.
If you think that we caved on day one of negotiations you are wrong, club list managers have been meeting each other over the last 4-6 weeks about stuff like this.. An elevation of 6 places and an extra pick in this years draft is much better than SFA when he wanted out as an unrestricted free agent at end of 2013. Unrestricted means no compensation from the AFL from what I understand.

[bornadog]

If you think that we caved on day one of negotiations you are wrong, club list managers have been meeting each other over the last 4-6 weeks about stuff like this.. An elevation of 6 places and an extra pick in this years draft is much better than SFA when he wanted out as an unrestricted free agent at end of 2013. Unrestricted means no compensation from the AFL from what I understand.

Which is just speculation.

[G-Mo77]

Unrestricted means no compensation from the AFL from what I understand.

Incorrect.

A player has served ten or more seasons of AFL football at one club, has already come out of contract once in the period after serving his first eight or more seasons at his club, and is now out of contract. (Unrestricted free agent)

The player is eligible to field offers from all rival clubs.

If he wishes to change clubs, the player must decide on the best offer of his choice from one rival club.

His club does not have the right to match the presented offer, and the player can move automatically to the new club of his choice.

His original club will receive a compensation pick for the loss of the player, on an AFL-determined formula to apply where clubs lose more free agents than they gain in any single transfer period.

[Bulldog4life]

Which is just speculation.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-free-agency-how-it-works-20121001-26ue3.html

Complicated.

[bornadog]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-free-agency-how-it-works-20121001-26ue3.html

Complicated.

I mean speculation he would walk.

[Mitcha]

Incorrect.

A player has served ten or more seasons of AFL football at one club, has already come out of contract once in the period after serving his first eight or more seasons at his club, and is now out of contract. (Unrestricted free agent)

The player is eligible to field offers from all rival clubs.

If he wishes to change clubs, the player must decide on the best offer of his choice from one rival club.

His club does not have the right to match the presented offer, and the player can move automatically to the new club of his choice.

His original club will receive a compensation pick for the loss of the player, on an AFL-determined formula to apply where clubs lose more free agents than they gain in any single transfer period.

Which for us still means SFA.

[G-Mo77]

Which for us still means SFA.

Exactly what we got on Monday. :)

[Bulldog4life]

I mean speculation he would walk.

Lake told the Club he wanted to leave the Club to play in a premiership. He repeated it again on Channel 10 news last night.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Pretty hard having two threads going on this.
Can some clever computer person merge them please?

[bornadog]

Lake told the Club he wanted to leave the Club to play in a premiership. He repeated it again on Channel 10 news last night.

I don't wish to go over old ground but you manage your players and look after them they stay.

[Desipura]

I don't wish to go over old ground but you manage your players and look after them they stay.

Bad, it's harder to retain certain players when you are not winning many games.
There are the loyal types there's there is the Lake types.

[LostDoggy]

I was initially disappointed with the Lake trade, but after sleeping on it I think it was the right thing to do. But it was the way he left that's been the real disappointment.

In his interviews, did he even thank the club, staff and supporters for their time and support? Did he wish us all the best for the future? Did he talk about anyone other than Brian? I'm not angry Brian, I'm just very disappointed.

[AndrewP6]

Well, I slept on it, discussed it at work and I reckon I feel worse now than yesterday. As well as the ridiculous deal we took on the first day of trading, the club's spinning of how all is well because we got pick 21, I stupidly took a look at the Dawks website to find another article and a pic of He Who Shall Not Be Named signing the family up for a 2013 family membership :eek: not to mention his wife and kids already kitted out in the poo and wee colours.

But hey, we get pick 21. Great, just great..

[azabob]

Well, I slept on it, discussed it at work and I reckon I feel worse now than yesterday. As well as the ridiculous deal we took on the first day of trading, the club's spinning of how all is well because we got pick 21, I stupidly took a look at the Dawks website to find another article and a pic of He Who Shall Not Be Named signing the family up for a 2013 family membership :eek: not to mention his wife and kids already kitted out in the poo and wee colours.

But hey, we get pick 21. Great, just great..

Don't forget pick 44 was it?

[AndrewP6]

Don't forget pick 44 was it?

Oh 47 I think. Yippee.

[jeemak]

Don't forget pick 44 was it?


Oh 47 I think. Yippee.

41, actually lads.

[Topdog]

Why is everyone saying no one else was interested? We traded on day 1, didn't exactly give others time to show an interest.

[bornadog]

Why is everyone saying no one else was interested? We traded on day 1, didn't exactly give others time to show an interest.

He was shopped 10 days ago.

[Scraggers]

Why is everyone saying no one else was interested? We traded on day 1, didn't exactly give others time to show an interest.

The list managers met last week and Hawthorn stated their interest in Lake then. Hawthorn were the only team to show interest in Lake.

The fact the deal was able to be done on day one is neither here nor there.

[Topdog]

And things change in 1 week, let alone 3.

[bornadog]

The list managers met last week and Hawthorn stated their interest in Lake then. Hawthorn were the only team to show interest in Lake.

The fact the deal was able to be done on day one is neither here nor there.

I guess we wanted the picks early on so we can use them to trade for other players.

[LostDoggy]

Can we get Brian Harris back now?

[bornadog]

Can we get Brian Harris back now?

A 21 year old Brian Harris would be great.