McCartney: We need patience

[bornadog]

Link (http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2013-03-12/mccartney-we-need-patience)

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/mmsalih/277552-tlsnewsportrait_zps4ece2c09.jpg

Western Bulldogs coach Brendan McCartney has a simple message to his club's players and supporters - hang in there.

For the fans, it's about McCartney's conviction that while patience is needed, better times are coming.

To the players, it encapsulates the Dogs' chief ambition this year - be better for longer. That counts for individual matches and the whole season.

The Dogs won five of their first 11 games last year.

But they lost their last 11, most of them thrashings, with the dam generally bursting in the second half.

The Bulldogs' first pre-season under McCartney emphasised strength work and game-learning.

This time there's been more running. Improved fitness measurements indicate it's helping.

But like everything with an inexperienced squad, it's incremental - a fact highlighted by the club's 109-point NAB Cup thrashing at the hands of Fremantle last Saturday night.

"There's only so much work you can do with a very young group of players before they fall apart on you," McCartney said.

To accelerate the process the Dogs added some experience, recruiting Nick Lower (from Fremantle), Tom Young (Collingwood) and Koby Stevens (West Coast), all 25 or younger and with fewer than 50 AFL games' experience.

They also rookie-drafted Adam Goodes' 29-year-old brother Brett from the VFL.

"They do add some body strength and physical strength," McCartney said.

"What we found last year towards the end of the year was, we were probably subjecting some really young players to positions they weren't ready for."

The Dogs also snaffled some bright draft prospects, although they're unlikely to make a great difference immediately.

But one area McCartney wants quick improvement is with his key forwards.

The two most promising, Liam Jones and Ayce Cordy, were inconsistent and managed just 17 goals between them last season, while another prospect Jordan Roughead was moved to defence.

McCartney acknowledged the team's delivery wasn't great and that big men can develop slowly.

"Time ticks though," he said.

"There is an expectation that they have themselves and we have with them that they will produce more.

"The game doesn't wait too long."

Robert Murphy will spend more time in attack, to add polish.

There's no such frustration about the Dogs' young midfielders.

Experienced guns Matthew Boyd and Ryan Griffen are backed by Mitch Wallis, Tom Liberatore and Clay Smith, an emerging trio who have already shown plenty.

They're the kind of tough, contested ball-winners McCartney loves.

They spent much of last year shadowing the game's best players, with McCartney determined to get the defensive aspects of their games locked in.

This season they're expected to not only match those players for longer but hurt them with attack.

"Step two is learning 'I can actually attack at times too and get away from these blokes and make them defend'," McCartney said.

An inexperienced Dogs' defence has become even more so after losing Brian Lake and Ryan Hargrave.

The return of stalwart Dale Morris from severe leg injuries will help enormously, though.

Morris amazed McCartney by immediately throwing himself into danger on return to training.

Equally impressive was his instant impact returning to the field this pre-season, blanketing opponents and encouraging teammates.

"Teammates like that are worth their weight in gold because they don't make it about them," McCartney said.

But while confident the pieces are coming together, McCartney warns supporters there's no quick fix.

"A little bit of time, a little bit of patience, a little bit of understanding - hang in there with us," he said.

[GVGjr]

I think we agree that it's going to take time and development of the list before we see a significant improvement but this whole softly softly approach has a very limited shelf life.

We simply can't accept losses this year like we did last year.

[ledge]

I think we agree that it's going to take time and development of the list before we see a significant improvement but this whole softly softly approach has a very limited shelf life.

We simply can't accept losses this year like we did last year.

We haven't had any in the season proper yet :-)

[AndrewP6]

I don't disagree with the general gist, but it's an awfully hard sell, and with our member numbers in steady decline, people need something to get excited about. The "young bodies" line only stretches so far IMO.

[Go_Dogs]

It's a balanced article.

I like the fact he said "time ticks" - he's going to want to see continued improvement, particularly from our tall forwards, and whilst he's shown patience so far I get the feeling as players get more experience into them he's going to be quite demanding about getting the results.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I don't disagree with the general gist, but it's an awfully hard sell, and with our member numbers in steady decline, people need something to get excited about. The "young bodies" line only stretches so far IMO.

Yeah but what else can you do? Lie?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Agree with GVG and Griff.

Pleasing to see him acknowledge that time is ticking.

[Topdog]

Yeah but what else can you do? Lie?

Going over old ground again but we were told initially that the playing group didnt need a rebuild, just a refresh.

It is a really hard sell and if we have to cop some smashings this year it would want to be from round 5-15. Need to start the year and end the year well. Need some signs for people to sign up again.

[Maddog37]

Gia, Cross, Boyd and Murph will soon all be gone which pretty much makes it a total rebuild. These things simply cannot happen overnight and I would love to know what the alternative is to the road we are going down.

Do people feel that a differenet coach would be getting better results? (genuine question, not rhetorical)

[Mofra]

"Step two is learning 'I can actually attack at times too and get away from these blokes and make them defend'," McCartney said.
It is a multi-year strategy, despite what some say

[Greystache]

It is a multi-year strategy, despite what some say

Naturally. I struggled to understand why some supporters became so attached to "crack in" as our only tactic. It was only ever the base layer.

McCartney and co decided that the basis of our game was going to be every player being able to win the ball in the contest and be capable one on one. That's a pretty reasonable starting point, especially when a big percentage of the team were young kids. The next step was building team defensive structures, then ball movement patterns, and eventually scoring more. Trying to do everything all at once only dilutes the message.

Yes from a fan's perspective it's frustrating, but a year or two's pain isn't much in the scheme of things, especially if the long term payoff is there. So often short cuts just lead to deficiencies when the team starts its upward stage of the cycle. Even in a painful year the first half wasn't too bad, 5-6 after 11 games with some pretty good performances against good teams. That got lost along the way because the second half of the year was so disappointing.

[Mofra]

Yes from a fan's perspective it's frustrating, but a year or two's pain isn't much in the scheme of things, especially if the long term payoff is there. So often short cuts just lead to deficiencies when the team starts its upward stage of the cycle. Even in a painful year the first half wasn't too bad, 5-6 after 11 games with some pretty good performances against good teams. That got lost along the way because the second half of the year was so disappointing.
We did show flashes in the second half - the Sydney game for example.

The other issue isn't simply being patient with the players, it's that outside of the midfield we have such an unsettled line up. Whilst "competition for spots" always sounds good, a settled line up that allows players to anticipate the running patterns of teammates tends to be where a team can increase their effectiveness. Eade settled a defensive 6 pretty early, I'd suspect McCartney will try to do the same thing this year.
The midfield should sort itself out in some respects, the F50 is wide open and will be in the medium term I suspect.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Naturally. I struggled to understand why some supporters became so attached to "crack in" as our only tactic. It was only ever the base layer.

McCartney and co decided that the basis of our game was going to be every player being able to win the ball in the contest and be capable one on one. That's a pretty reasonable starting point, especially when a big percentage of the team were young kids. The next step was building team defensive structures, then ball movement patterns, and eventually scoring more. Trying to do everything all at once only dilutes the message.

Yes from a fan's perspective it's frustrating, but a year or two's pain isn't much in the scheme of things, especially if the long term payoff is there. So often short cuts just lead to deficiencies when the team starts its upward stage of the cycle. Even in a painful year the first half wasn't too bad, 5-6 after 11 games with some pretty good performances against good teams. That got lost along the way because the second half of the year was so disappointing.

I believe McCartney is the right person for the times and as you have suggested it is going to take time.We look better placed this season with the return of Morris and a fitter Cooney. Our key forwards is a concern with Jones needing desperately more support. The emergence of Roughead as a key defender is a real bonus and he should enjoy a good year. There now appears to be more support for Griffen and Boyd in the midfield and we can expect more improvement from the likes of Liberatore and Smith.Stevens Lower Goodes and Young look to be reasonable draft picks and a big improvement on those who have been dropped off the list.

[F'scary]

It's a balanced article.

I like the fact he said "time ticks" - he's going to want to see continued improvement, particularly from our tall forwards, and whilst he's shown patience so far I get the feeling as players get more experience into them he's going to be quite demanding about getting the results.

Tall forwards. Only one of those words applies to Ayce Cordy.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Naturally. I struggled to understand why some supporters became so attached to "crack in" as our only tactic. It was only ever the base layer.

McCartney and co decided that the basis of our game was going to be every player being able to win the ball in the contest and be capable one on one. That's a pretty reasonable starting point, especially when a big percentage of the team were young kids. The next step was building team defensive structures, then ball movement patterns, and eventually scoring more. Trying to do everything all at once only dilutes the message.

Yes from a fan's perspective it's frustrating, but a year or two's pain isn't much in the scheme of things, especially if the long term payoff is there. So often short cuts just lead to deficiencies when the team starts its upward stage of the cycle. Even in a painful year the first half wasn't too bad, 5-6 after 11 games with some pretty good performances against good teams. That got lost along the way because the second half of the year was so disappointing.

Hopefully the club sticks behind McCartney and realises that it's going to take a while to get to where we want to be, considering the experience and talent we've lost from 09-11.

I think McCartney's philosophy on how to build a team is very sound. What I am uncertain of is whether he's a good match day coach, and this is the area that he'll need to personally show improvement in.

[AndrewP6]

Gia, Cross, Boyd and Murph will soon all be gone which pretty much makes it a total rebuild. These things simply cannot happen overnight and I would love to know what the alternative is to the road we are going down.

Do people feel that a differenet coach would be getting better results? (genuine question, not rhetorical)

Not necessarily, the team was always going to battle. IMO though, McCartney doesn't have the match day nous or the right strings in his bow.

There, I said it. ;)

[Bulldog Revolution]

Hopefully the club sticks behind McCartney and realises that it's going to take a while to get to where we want to be, considering the experience and talent we've lost from 09-11.

I think McCartney's philosophy on how to build a team is very sound. What I am uncertain of is whether he's a good match day coach, and this is the area that he'll need to personally show improvement in.

There is a lot of sense in that thinking TBB

I suspect BMac focused on all the other stuff he was trying to achieve at the club and perhaps gave less focus to match day coaching

I like that we've been turning over and improving the list.

But its a concern that we don't have any established key position forwards or defenders - which really tells us where the list is at.

I want to see us have a dead set crack this year, but continue to rebuild via the draft.

[Ghost Dog]

No coach is perfect. He's the right coach for this stage of our development.

[Greystache]

Not necessarily, the team was always going to battle. IMO though, McCartney doesn't have the match day nous or the right strings in his bow.

There, I said it. ;)

McCartney is on record as saying he left players in position even if they were being beaten to gauge how hey responded, and that the coaching group didn't try to influence games as they thought the players needed to learn to play together even if they were under the pump. I think in a season focused on getting games into kids to see who had something to offer match day nous was low on the list of priorities.

He may or may not be a good match day coach, we don't have much evidence either way at this stage.

[AndrewP6]

McCartney is on record as saying he left players in position even if they were being beaten to gauge how hey responded, and that the coaching group didn't try to influence games as they thought the players needed to learn to play together even if they were under the pump. I think in a season focused on getting games into kids to see who had something to offer match day nous was low on the list of priorities.

Fair enough, I just don't think he has it.

[jeemak]

Fair enough, I just don't think he has it.

On just a hunch?

I suppose what you're saying is fair enough. How many coaches can you name over the last 15 years honestly as good match day coaches?

If your judgement was based on last year, I think 'stache has a point.

[Hotdog60]

Fair enough, I just don't think he has it.

I was a big Rocket fan and what he has brought to the club, but in saying that I have like what Macca has brought to the table.

I've jumped on board and I am willing to give the man a few seasons to see how he goes, the biggest thing I could possibly hope for is that he can convert you to his coaching. If he can do that I know we will be a force to be reckoned with and maybe some silver ware in the cupboard.:)

[The Underdog]

Fair enough, I just don't think he has it.

As long as we write him off on one year of experience as a senior coach and neglect the fact that maybe he too can learn and develop from his first season in the role. Who knows, maybe he might improve. You might be right but I'm willing to give it all a bit more time to play out.

[AndrewP6]

On just a hunch?

I suppose what you're saying is fair enough. How many coaches can you name over the last 15 years honestly as good match day coaches?

If your judgement was based on last year, I think 'stache has a point.

Combination of both, I think. Happy if I'm proven wrong, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
Given the phase we now are admitting to being in (rebuild), and the poor state of our membership tally, I think he will need to make some noticeable strides, to give supporters something to want to go to the footy for - an uphill battle for anyone.

[Cyberdoggie]

McCartney is on record as saying he left players in position even if they were being beaten to gauge how hey responded, and that the coaching group didn't try to influence games as they thought the players needed to learn to play together even if they were under the pump. I think in a season focused on getting games into kids to see who had something to offer match day nous was low on the list of priorities.

He may or may not be a good match day coach, we don't have much evidence either way at this stage.

I'd like to see that change somewhat this year.

While it's still a development year to some extent, i'd expect nothing less than us to be competitive in most matches, and hopefully causing a couple of upsets.

It's going to be a very tough year for us with what appears to be steady improvement from the other sides around us, so it will be tough to gauge real improvement in performance this year.

Theoretically most sides look to be on the up, ie Melbourne, GWS, GC, Carlton, StKilda, Essendon and even Port look better, so some sides should also be on the slide, not really sure who yet and where that leaves us.

[jeemak]

Cyberdoggie, I think it leaves us in a precarious position and fighting it out with the bottom four once again.

We'll be completely disorganised with our forward movement which will be frustrating, and our back six relying on Williams and Morris will have turns at being without those two if previous and more recent injury form is anything to go by.

We may make some gains in our midfield competitiveness with the addition of a fit Cooney (hopefully), Lower, Stevens and some improvement from Wallis, Liberatore and Smith. With some fitness improvements in the latter, I think Griffen, Boyd and Cross will have more around them to help the side remain competitive within that area.

You've mentioned the latter stages of this year to see a game plan of sorts being produced by the list, and I think that's pretty reasonable. Though I'd only expect to see it in glimpses. If we can replicate the competitiveness in attitude of the first half of 2012 throughout the whole year this year, and our fitness work over summer makes us more resilient in the latter rounds of this year then I think we'll have a good base to build on for 2014.

[Bulldog Joe]

I certainly had some problems with where we were at last year. I have spoken to Macca at a couple of functions and I am now more comfortable that we are heading in the right direction.

We have some terrific prospects on the list now and I think we will be showing something certainly in 2014.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Present pain for future gain. Another year of losing, occasionally badly, will make next year's gains and beyond even sweeter. Pick the turning points and keep the faith.

[bornadog]

We had to learn to tolerate last year as we had such a young team, new coach new era. Similarly in 2011 once we had all the injuries to senior players, we accepted that we had to blood some new talent (10 new) and we weren't going to be playing finals anyway. That is two years of blooding new players ( something like 20, plus we turned over another 10), as well as one year learning under Macca with new game plans - they are big changes to the team.

What I won't tolerate this year is the blatant "I don't care if we win or lose attitude" of last year. Clearly on match days Macca sometimes didn't even watch the game, but was on the boundary line teaching his pupils, didn't make any moves, let players stay on an opponent even though they weren't matched up etc etc. That was fine for last year and we weren't going to win any more than we did anyway (although we should have won the Carlton game - that was a disgrace).

This year, Macca has to coach on match day, and at least try and win games. The players must show improvement and 100% commitment and effort during a game.

I am not expecting to win many games, but I do not want to see 60 point thrashings most weeks and either do the supporters. Macca must coach to stop those massive blow outs and show we are improving and we have a future and give our supporters hope. I just hope we have the right players. As for the coach, time will tell. We made a decision, lets stick with him and get behind him.

[Cyberdoggie]

I hear ya BAD,

I've been a bulldog for life so i learned how to deal with the pain of losing, and how to stick with the club regardless, but others are not as stern (or should i say stubborn) as we are.

I really feel like we are on a knife edge.

There's been a lot of effort by the club to build round 1 up.
Lot's of ticket give away's bulldog blitz etc, Brisbane while seemingly in form are a beatable team. I don't know about you guys but i'm extremely nervous about this game. A win would be a huge kickstart, a bad loss would be devastating.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

We had to learn to tolerate last year as we had such a young team, new coach new era. Similarly in 2011 once we had all the injuries to senior players, we accepted that we had to blood some new talent (10 new) and we weren't going to be playing finals anyway. That is two years of blooding new players ( something like 20, plus we turned over another 10), as well as one year learning under Macca with new game plans - they are big changes to the team.

What I won't tolerate this year is the blatant "I don't care if we win or lose attitude" of last year. Clearly on match days Macca sometimes didn't even watch the game, but was on the boundary line teaching his pupils, didn't make any moves, let players stay on an opponent even though they weren't matched up etc etc. That was fine for last year and we weren't going to win any more than we did anyway (although we should have won the Carlton game - that was a disgrace).

This year, Macca has to coach on match day, and at least try and win games. The players must show improvement and 100% commitment and effort during a game.

I am not expecting to win many games, but I do not want to see 60 point thrashings most weeks and either do the supporters. Macca must coach to stop those massive blow outs and show we are improving and we have a future and give our supporters hope. I just hope we have the right players. As for the coach, time will tell. We made a decision, lets stick with him and get behind him.

I agree with all that you have said but at the end of the day it comes down to talent. We live in hope that quality forwards will emerge to kick winning scores which on the surface still remains a big problem. Will we get a break out year from Jones?
How quickly can Roberts and Stringer adapt to the rigors of professional AFL football?
These are still problematic. I believe our list is better than last year and we will see improvement but it still remains to be seen how far and fast we can advance up the ladder.

[mjp]

We have some terrific prospects on the list now and I think we will be showing something certainly in 2014.

Who would you put in the category BJ. I don't disagree that we have some young talent - I just don't see how our kids have shown any more than those on the lists of other clubs, some of whom are currently a long way ahead of us. And then you look at the expansion sides who are simply loaded and - GWS especially - seem to have some kids who are going to be out and out stars...ours on the other hand look like potential 100 gamers rather than potential Brownlow/Coleman Medallists.

Who are the 3-5 players who will take us to the top of the ladder and not just peak out at the bottom of the 8?

[Go_Dogs]

Who are the 3-5 players who will take us to the top of the ladder and not just peak out at the bottom of the 8?

Agree with your point in the top part of the post. As for this question, IMO Liberatore, Dahlhaus, Wallis and Roughead all have the potential to develop into AA level players (hopefully they do). Out of the younger guys Smith, JJ, Stringer, Macrae and Hrovat all have some way to go but have shown signs or come with strong credentials, hopefully a few of them can get to that level too. Quality KP talent is still the glaring weakness but we aren't alone there. Whether these guys are ultimately good enough remains to be seen but I think we do have a bit to work with.

[MrMahatma]

A rookie coach with a pretty average list.

That's Macca.

Are the losses the coach's fault? The list? Both?

Generally you can't be sure until it's too late.

FWIW, I like what he's trying to do. I'm pretty easy sold though.

[Topdog]

What I won't tolerate this year is the blatant "I don't care if we win or lose attitude" of last year. Clearly on match days Macca sometimes didn't even watch the game, but was on the boundary line teaching his pupils, didn't make any moves, let players stay on an opponent even though they weren't matched up etc etc. That was fine for last year and we weren't going to win any more than we did anyway (although we should have won the Carlton game - that was a disgrace).

This year, Macca has to coach on match day, and at least try and win games. The players must show improvement and 100% commitment and effort during a game.

I am not expecting to win many games, but I do not want to see 60 point thrashings most weeks and either do the supporters. Macca must coach to stop those massive blow outs and show we are improving and we have a future and give our supporters hope. I just hope we have the right players. As for the coach, time will tell. We made a decision, lets stick with him and get behind him.

Excellent post BAD. Im not convinced either way at the moment but we REALLY need to see an improvement in this aspect.

Losing is a bad habit to get into and if you can win a few close ones early on it is a great learning curve for the kids. We need to try and win games this year.

[jeemak]

We had to learn to tolerate last year as we had such a young team, new coach new era. Similarly in 2011 once we had all the injuries to senior players, we accepted that we had to blood some new talent (10 new) and we weren't going to be playing finals anyway. That is two years of blooding new players ( something like 20, plus we turned over another 10), as well as one year learning under Macca with new game plans - they are big changes to the team.

What I won't tolerate this year is the blatant "I don't care if we win or lose attitude" of last year. Clearly on match days Macca sometimes didn't even watch the game, but was on the boundary line teaching his pupils, didn't make any moves, let players stay on an opponent even though they weren't matched up etc etc. That was fine for last year and we weren't going to win any more than we did anyway (although we should have won the Carlton game - that was a disgrace).

This year, Macca has to coach on match day, and at least try and win games. The players must show improvement and 100% commitment and effort during a game.

I am not expecting to win many games, but I do not want to see 60 point thrashings most weeks and either do the supporters. Macca must coach to stop those massive blow outs and show we are improving and we have a future and give our supporters hope. I just hope we have the right players. As for the coach, time will tell. We made a decision, lets stick with him and get behind him.

Good post.

Competitive for longer against the best teams, and competitive for the entire game against the rest.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I think that we need another strong draft to hold us in a good position for the future, but of the younger group currently I see it as follows:

Potential A-Grade players:
Wallis, Dahlhaus, Stringer, Macrae, Liberatore, Roughead, Hrovat

Potential B+ Grade players:
Smith (Perhaps A-Grade), Roberts, Jones, Stevens, Hunter, Talia, Johannisen

I know that it's all hypothetical and it's likely some from the above list will under perform, as it is possible some may elevate from where I have them (Smith), including those I haven't even listed.

On a purely "potential" basis, I think we are building a decent looking squad. As Griffen said we need a few more quality talls and we could also do with another star "complete" midfielder. Realistically though, no side in the competition is "complete" -- there's at least one area they are lacking, be it in the extra A-Grade mid or star KPF.

With all that in mind, I think we have a good foundation that requires another 2-3 very good players. It re-emphasizes the fact that this next draft is another really important one.

[Remi Moses]

I understand the winning culture and all that, but we need another good draft.
Just hope we're more competitive for longer periods.

[Bulldog Joe]

MJP
The players listed by Griffen and TBB are the names I have in mind, but what I believe we are seeing is improved depth as well. The focus on bigger bodies from the recruiting side makes sense.

The test of our ability to really challenge will be how that potential is nurtured.

I understand that every supporter of every team thinks their youngsters are the stars of the future, but you need depth to support the stars.

[LostDoggy]

Yeah but what else can you do? Lie?

Thanks. Saved me saying it. The guy is honest, and is being torched for that, but it's a great example to set.


Going over old ground again but we were told initially that the playing group didnt need a rebuild, just a refresh.

Groan. It's a rebuild. I thought we were past all that — “but you said it's just a refresh! I want my money back!”


Combination of both, I think. Happy if I'm proven wrong, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
Given the phase we now are admitting to being in (rebuild), and the poor state of our membership tally, I think he will need to make some noticeable strides, to give supporters something to want to go to the footy for - an uphill battle for anyone.

This is the reason we may never win another premiership. Our fans aren't willing to pay the price.

[jeemak]

Thanks. Saved me saying it. The guy is honest, and is being torched for that, but it's a great example to set.

Groan. It's a rebuild. I thought we were past all that — “but you said it's just a refresh! I want my money back!”

This is the reason we may never win another premiership. Our fans aren't willing to pay the price.

My thoughts exactly. I'm staggered people still mention or worry about something our past president said at the end of 2011!

It was wrong. Let's move on.

[Topdog]

My thoughts exactly. I'm staggered people still mention or worry about something our past president said at the end of 2011!

It was wrong. Let's move on.

Well Ive never asked for my money back and I would hope that when people are going to quote me they would be honest enough to quote everything and do so in context.

We are going through what is a really really tough time on this football club. Membership numbers continuing to decrease and we desperately need to show something towards the end of this season.

We on this site may all be diehard fans that will buy a membership for no other reason than to support the club but our kind make up less than 10% of our supporter base. The patience message IS true but it wont be enough for many many people out there and those comments did harm the club and with Joe Public we are still hurting because of them.

[Mantis]

This is the reason we may never win another premiership. Our fans aren't willing to pay the price.

That is one ridiculous statement.

I would think our fans have been remarkably durable considering we haven't played in a GF in over 50 years.

[Greystache]

That is one ridiculous statement.

I would think our fans have been remarkably durable considering we haven't played in a GF in over 50 years.

I agree, I can't understand how some people think our supporters are band wagoners. We have had no success in most people's lifetime, yet our membership is comparable to several other Melbourne based teams who've enjoyed comparatively more success.

[Ghost Dog]

The longer the courtship, the sweeter the honeymoon :)

[LostDoggy]

That is one ridiculous statement.

I would think our fans have been remarkably durable considering we haven't played in a GF in over 50 years.

How many short-sighted, ill-conceived decisions have been made over those 50 years to appease the fans? How many of those decisions cost us success down the road?

[jeemak]

Well Ive never asked for my money back and I would hope that when people are going to quote me they would be honest enough to quote everything and do so in context.

We are going through what is a really really tough time on this football club. Membership numbers continuing to decrease and we desperately need to show something towards the end of this season.

We on this site may all be diehard fans that will buy a membership for no other reason than to support the club but our kind make up less than 10% of our supporter base. The patience message IS true but it wont be enough for many many people out there and those comments did harm the club and with Joe Public we are still hurting because of them.

Sorry if it seemed I was directing my comments toward you. From my experience in reading your posts I've never pinned you as anything but extremely dedicated to the Bulldogs, and reasonable.

I didn't think the comments were initially as damaging as others did at the time, and I also don't think they have much of an impact now. Probably a tough one to measure, I suppose.

Personally I just think our supporter base is tired after coming so close, and needs to see some hope. For many the disappointment started in 2010 after winning the NAB Cup and struggling through the season.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

So we need a few quality players and really a star may also be needed. We are most likely to get these players in the next draft as it's supposedly a very good one and we're likely to finish low and get a couple of good picks. Our key position line of say Roughead, Williams, Boyd, Jones and Stringer should be good for a few years and be the spine around which we develop a quality side. Midfield looks the goods if we can get a fast outsider with a good kick and brain. We need an Eddy Betts and a Lewis Jetta most of all and of course for all of our youngsters to develop. The good news is that we are teaching a squad together with so many developing players, so that a really strong team ethic can develop. Lets see how Fate rolls our dice but I can see reason to hope for the ultimate.

[Mofra]

How many short-sighted, ill-conceived decisions have been made over those 50 years to appease the fans? How many of those decisions cost us success down the road?
I'd expect most of the "appeasing the fans" decisions relate to onfield performance which is what the fans want most - success.

[AndrewP6]

This is the reason we may never win another premiership. Our fans aren't willing to pay the price.

Excuse me? That is the most absurd thing I've read here in a while.

[Mantis]

How many short-sighted, ill-conceived decisions have been made over those 50 years to appease the fans? How many of those decisions cost us success down the road?

You tell me.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

The longer the courtship, the sweeter the honeymoon :)

Made me laugh.

GD, I think if/when we win a premiership, many of us will still have a hangover 24 months later :D

[bornadog]

Made me laugh.

GD, I think if/when we win a premiership, many of us will still have a hangover 24 months later :D

Can we at least get to a Grand Final. I want to experience grand final week:) If we win the premiership I think my hangover will be longer than that:D

[mjp]

MJP
The players listed by Griffen and TBB are the names I have in mind, but what I believe we are seeing is improved depth as well. The focus on bigger bodies from the recruiting side makes sense.

The test of our ability to really challenge will be how that potential is nurtured.

I understand that every supporter of every team thinks their youngsters are the stars of the future, but you need depth to support the stars.

Ok. I don't really know what you mean by 'depth' though. Right now, we might appear to have depth but I would suggest what we really have is a large group of players who are either unproven or yet to establish themselves. Depth to me is having a suitable backup in place for a position...you could argue at the moment we have nothing BUT depth as our best 22 is not really distinguishable from our 'next best'. I suppose this is part and parcel of rebuilding, but if any of Minson, Griff, Boyd or Murphy either go down injured or drop away quickly then we will quickly find out how much depth we really have.

[LostDoggy]

Excuse me? That is the most absurd thing I've read here in a while.

What I mean is, we have fans baying for blood before he's even had a chance to do anything. How can we get anywhere if the coach is never allowed to finish the job?

[AndrewP6]

What I mean is, we have fans baying for blood before he's even had a chance to do anything. How can we get anywhere if the coach is never allowed to finish the job?

He was appointed in September 2011. He's not the new coach anymore.

[jeemak]

What I mean is, we have fans baying for blood before he's even had a chance to do anything. How can we get anywhere if the coach is never allowed to finish the job?

I think we've over the years had supporters that have wanted us to go for a quick fix, and those that have become impatient early on in a rebuild (or refresh!). All clubs have though, and it's going to be a really tough and resilient effort from our supporter base to stay true during a very trying period since the effort we put in close to contending recently.

I don't think I'm more passionate than most supporters, perhaps I'm more reasonable after only having 33 years of disappointment under my belt, though I'm really not expecting a lot this year other than some glimpses of a game plan forming and improvement from our younger players, as well as consolidation from those new to the club on a second chance.

Next year's the big one for me, as all involved will have had enough time to do what's required of them to put the planning and hard work together and forge some results.

[Greystache]

I think we've over the years had supporters that have wanted us to go for a quick fix, and those that have become impatient early on in a rebuild (or refresh!). All clubs have though, and it's going to be a really tough and resilient effort from our supporter base to stay true during a very trying period since the effort we put in close to contending recently.

The issue becomes when the club bows to the demands of the ignorant and short sighted supporters and takes those quick fix solutions. It could be easily argued one of the reasons Richmond had been a rabble for 30 years is they continually bow to the demands of impatient fans. We've been guilty of it in the past and I hope this time around we're strong enough to stick to the plan.

[jeemak]

Couldn't agree more. Richmond's supporters are known for their almost ritualistic membership burnings, and it hasn't helped their club one bit over a prolonged period of time where it's been managed poorly.

[Bulldog Joe]

Ok. I don't really know what you mean by 'depth' though. Right now, we might appear to have depth but I would suggest what we really have is a large group of players who are either unproven or yet to establish themselves. Depth to me is having a suitable backup in place for a position...you could argue at the moment we have nothing BUT depth as our best 22 is not really distinguishable from our 'next best'. I suppose this is part and parcel of rebuilding, but if any of Minson, Griff, Boyd or Murphy either go down injured or drop away quickly then we will quickly find out how much depth we really have.

I agree with your point of largely unproven or yet to establish, but we certainly have added players over the past 2 years that give more options through the midfield.

The players we brought to the club for 2012 mostly showed at least somepromise. We have added further with Stringer, McCrae and Hrovat all getting good reports on their involvement to date. Add Stevens, Young and Lower as all players that can at least compete at seniot level. Brett Goodes has also looked effective.

While these players need to prove themselves, I certainly feel that we are better placed to cover injuries and there seems more competition for spots.

We do need to see how this evolves, but I am feeling more optimistic than I was late last year.

[bornadog]

The issue becomes when the club bows to the demands of the ignorant and short sighted supporters and takes those quick fix solutions. It could be easily argued one of the reasons Richmond had been a rabble for 30 years is they continually bow to the demands of impatient fans. We've been guilty of it in the past and I hope this time around we're strong enough to stick to the plan.

I don't think our club has ever really done that. The only coach that we got rid of quickly was a mistake anyway and rushed in because he was cheap. We have stuck to the plan, particularly since the 90's when we rebuilt a number of times and made finals throughout the 90's and 2000's. We are on the same path again and we will rebuild and be back playing finals again.

Richmond were like that but since Wallace they have also stuck to their guns, however, they still haven't played finals, so it doesn't always work.

[mjp]

Add Stevens, Young and Lower as all players that can at least compete at seniot level. Brett Goodes has also looked effective.


No secret I am a fan of Stevens - and I like Lower and Goodes just fine. I guess your 'depth' point is true in the case of each of these players (and Young as well - though he is even more unproven than the others)...but I am actually frustrated that our recruiting from other clubs has been based on building depth where I would like to see it based on getting in some real quality - negatively impacting our rivals and adding to our own 'star power'. I suppose I am still frustrated that Essendon had the foresight to pinch Goddard from St Kilda, Sydney snared Tippet from Sydney and we didn't do anything of that magnitude.

Again, I am a frustrated supporter and my views should be taken as such - but I don't understand why a rebuilding process has to take 3-5 years. Cant we try to win NOW whilst looking to win it all in 3-5 years? I hope all my fears are unfounded but I am concerned that the best case scenario for players such as Goodes, Lower, Howard, Tutt, Pearce, Jung, Roberts (and on I could go) is that they become solid contributors...in the meantime, we have to sit back and wait for the potential match-winners in Stringer and Macrae - plus the assumed high draft picks we will get again at the end of what everyone seems to think will be a miserable season - to mature and hopefully join a peaking Wallis, Liberatore, Jones, Dalhaus and maybe, just maybe Griffen is still hanging on...

I don't want another year like the second half of 2012. I was really, really, really upset with our efforts in Mandurah last week - I know it was pre-season but is that really the type of performance our club accepts? - and I want to be looking forward with confidence, not trepidation. Patience? Sure - how much do I need to have? The winning doesn't phase me, but this season if we are not moving the ball with a lot more efficiency than last year and at least impacting the scoreboard then I am NOT going to be very patient. Improvement has to come in 2013 - it needs to be tangible on the scoreboard, and not just in terms of kicking efficiency stats. I don't think expecting this is being unreasonable or impatient.

[jeemak]

MJP, I suppose to snag one of the big names a club needs to be bold, but it also needs to be in a position where it can offer the potential big name a short term future result above what his own club can.

Do you really think a Goddard would have come to our club, considering its current position and Goddard's need to join a club that is potentially going to win a flag in the next couple of years?

I appreciate your views on depth, and agree with them somewhat. I suppose when apart from your veterans you have a club full of unknown quantities it's pretty hard to prepare for replacing players who command their own spot on the field. For me, this aspect of building our list is extremely troublesome. We need players to establish themselves in positions this year to provide clarity in our list management going forwards.

As for your assessment of last week's game at Mandurah, you were there, and the vast majority of us weren't. Though the numbers suggested we were on a hiding to nothing, and we copped hammerings last year with a vastly more experienced side playing game for points. I'm not saying it was acceptable, but I couldn't imagine a game where there were more mitigating circumstances than there were last week, epecially considering Fremantle were lining up with a side close to the one that made week two of the finals last year, and we rocked up with a bunch of novices.

Enough of us have played games under similar circumstances ourselves, or coached them. It's a bloody tough ask to walk away with anything significant. IMO we need to show something this week when we're stronger.

[G-Mo77]

In regards to the quick fix argument. Jade Rawlings anyone? He was our "saviour" and instead turned out to be a big pile of cow dung that we had to pay another team to take on. That's one but there's more. Richmond has done this for so long. Fans call for blood - draft picks traded for recycled players - slight rise - big drop - Repeat cycle.

If we're going to bottom out and rebuild I'd like to see it done right and from a list POV I think we're going along OK. Other areas are a concern but I'm patient on that front. I think we'll show some signs after the half way mark this year.

[Topdog]

Just a shame we chose such a crappy time to need to rebuild. We are one of 5 clubs trying to do it and 2 of them had 30 more first round picks than us (slight exaggeration)

[jeemak]

Just a shame we chose such a crappy time to need to rebuild. We are one of 5 clubs trying to do it and 2 of them had 30 more first round picks than us (slight exaggeration)

I'm not entirely confident they'll be able to keep them all by the time they get to the age of 23-24. Nor am I confident their development programs will be as solid as established clubs.

We're into year three for GC, and year two for GWS. Each of these sides are at least three or four years away from contending for a top four spot as it stands, assuming they're able to hang on to their talent and make the most of it.

Just like everything the AFL contrives, I think they're going to have many issues in being productive.

[Topdog]

It will be impossible for them to keep them all BUT importantly for them with the current FA system in place they will be getting good draft picks for years and years to come. I think the AFL has helped them way too much. I hope I am wrong.

[Ghost Dog]

All new coaches have a honeymoon, and this coach is leading a re-build so do the math and predict that either we win 5 or so games minimum and are competitive, or the fans are going to be jumping up and down.
Nobody wants to fork out money to see games that are complete whitewash.
Alright if you have little aths there anyway, but you have to feel for the poor folk who trekked all the way to WA for that game!

[GVGjr]

No secret I am a fan of Stevens - and I like Lower and Goodes just fine. I guess your 'depth' point is true in the case of each of these players (and Young as well - though he is even more unproven than the others)...but I am actually frustrated that our recruiting from other clubs has been based on building depth where I would like to see it based on getting in some real quality - negatively impacting our rivals and adding to our own 'star power'. I suppose I am still frustrated that Essendon had the foresight to pinch Goddard from St Kilda, Sydney snared Tippet from Sydney and we didn't do anything of that magnitude.



Jason McCartney and Simon Dalrymple talked about this sort of scenario at a function I attended a few weeks back and the view was that while a big name might have a lot of benefits it wouldn't necessarily help us challenge for a top 4 or 5 spot because we are still a few seasons away from that.

Getting someone 23 or 24 (like a Dangerfield) would be something that they would be very interested in considering.

The better approach would be to focus on the youngsters and get some stronger bodies (Goodes, Lower, Stevens and Young) to support them without losing early draft picks.

Like you, I'd like to get a big name recruit but topping up on older star players like Akermanis isn't what we need now.

[Bulldog Joe]

I don't want another year like the second half of 2012. I was really, really, really upset with our efforts in Mandurah last week - I know it was pre-season but is that really the type of performance our club accepts? - and I want to be looking forward with confidence, not trepidation. Patience? Sure - how much do I need to have? The winning doesn't phase me, but this season if we are not moving the ball with a lot more efficiency than last year and at least impacting the scoreboard then I am NOT going to be very patient. Improvement has to come in 2013 - it needs to be tangible on the scoreboard, and not just in terms of kicking efficiency stats. I don't think expecting this is being unreasonable or impatient.

I am certainly on the same page in not wanting a repeat of late 2012.

I don't think the game at Mandurah means anything. We simply took nobody there to give us any chance to be competitive. Cooney was the only experienced player, against a Freo side in full dress rehearsal.

Jarrad Grant was the 2nd most experienced player.

That side would have been less experienced than any side fielded by GWS or Gold Coast.

I also need to see tangible improvement in 2013.

[wimberga]

Jason McCartney and Simon Dalrymple talked about this sort of scenario at a function I attended a few weeks back and the view was that while a big name might have a lot of benefits it wouldn't necessarily help us challenge for a top 4 or 5 spot because we are still a few seasons away from that.

Getting someone 23 or 24 (like a Dangerfield) would be something that they would be very interested in considering.

The better approach would be to focus on the youngsters and get some stronger bodies (Goodes, Lower, Stevens and Young) to support them without losing early draft picks.

Like you, I'd like to get a big name recruit but topping up on older star players like Akermanis isn't what we need now.

I agree GVGjr but I also agree with MJP in that at the end of the day, this game is about winning.

I believe that right now we are not in a position to target a big name. However, in the next 2 years or so I would really like us to go out there and try and drag a big name across. Hopefully free agency will make this easier for us. Bringing in new talent via the draft is always good but imo, when looking back over the teams that have bottomed out like your Melbourne's and your Carlton's, I think its hard to throw your full support behind this strategy.

We have had those good picks now and hopefully used them wisely with Stringer/Macrae. I think the way forward from now is to develop a cohesive game plan that the group can learn together, start putting winning ahead of development, have another year of relatively high list turnover and then really start to push teams and become that club that other teams dread playing and other players want to play for......

[F'scary]

McCartney. I am being patient. BUT IF WE DON'T WIN MORE MATCHES...