Where are our 50-149 game players?

[angelopetraglia]

One stat that caught my eye on the weekend.

We only had two players take the field against Adelaide between 50 and 149 games!

Two players, unbelievable (We had 14 under 50 games and 6 with more than 150). It shows where our list is at and how bad we were at drafting and development in the latter years of the Eace era when we were chasing a flag. Our long term decisions in this era were deplorable.

Our list is out of alignment. Compare our stats to every other team (even the new expansion teams are in better shape in this stat). We are least a couple of years away from being consistently competitive when it really takes a solid mix of players in this range to really compete.

In comparison other teams had the following (players between 50 and 149 games);

Adelaide 8
Sydney 10
Geelong 7
Hawthorn 5 (but 9 more than 150)
Fremantle 12
Richmond 15
Collingwood 8
StKilda 6
Essendon 10
West Coast 11
Carlton 13
Gold Coast 5
Port Adelaide 9
Melbourne 10
GWS 5
North 13
Brisbane 11

[F'scary]

J Grant - Reserves

[Mantis]

Two players, unbelievable (We had 14 under 50 games and 6 with more than 150). It shows where our list is at and how bad we were at drafting and development in the latter years of the Eace era when we were chasing a flag. Our long term decisions in this era were deplorable.



It shows where our injury list is too. All of Higgins, Williams, & Addison would be in our best 22 at present and help this number.

Losing Ward & Harbrow and getting little out of Everitt & Grant haven't helped.

[The bulldog tragician]

Angelo, that's really striking. What are our numbers for the 50-150 bracket overall ? Ie not just those selected for Sunday.

It does make me think our solutions won't be quick. When the older guys depart the lack of a middling group will be really concerning. I think I've read before that teams with lots in this category are usually those in premiership contention?

[Dancin' Douggy]

Ask the genius recruiter Scott Clayton where they are

[angelopetraglia]

Overall from 50 to 149 games on our list;

Grant 50
Higgins 109
Williams 76
Addison 76
Minson 140
Picken 91

Only six in total! It's like a black hole.

Compare that to Rchmond (who are coming) who had 15 play on the weekend!

[G-Mo77]

I brought this up in another thread. It seemed we did take short term goals over long term back when Eade was at the helm. That I've never had a problem with, I'm happy we tried everything possible to win, I'd rather that than die wondering.

Ward and Harbrow would have been leaders from this age bracket, they're at the expansion clubs and we shouldn't have drafted Grant with #5. Those 2 players still with us and nailing that pick #5 we're not looking that bad.

[The bulldog tragician]

And two of those ( Higgins and Williams) would have to have question marks on their future due to their lack of durability.

[angelopetraglia]

Another interesting stat was that Geelong's Premiership team in 2009 had 7 players between 100 and 149 but zero players under 100. That's right, they had not a single player take the field with less than 100 games!

They were in a similar position to us being in their Premiership window with lots of mature players (except they were winning them) but they were still developing and bringing in talent .... Sadly we were not.

[westdog54]

Its a glaring stat and a reminder that we need to be patient and allow the list to develop. In two years the likes of Cordy, Roughead, Jones, Wallis, Liberatore, Dahlhaus will all be in this group and Smith, Stringer, Macrae, Hrovat, Stevens and Young will be knocking down the door to it.

[LostDoggy]

Not sure how to take this thread???
Carlton, West Coast, Brisbane and Melbourne all have double figures in this category. All of which are traveling about as good as we are.
I guess this lopsided count shows that the "full rebuild" is in full effect.

[jeemak]

Its a glaring stat and a reminder that we need to be patient and allow the list to develop. In two years the likes of Cordy, Roughead, Jones, Wallis, Liberatore, Dahlhaus will all be in this group and Smith, Stringer, Macrae, Hrovat, Stevens and Young will be knocking down the door to it.

I suppose it makes a lot of the fretting about our current performances a little bit short sighted, even if you still feel bad on match day.

For what it's worth I think our young players are as good as any other teams, it's just a shame they don't have the older support to show them the way or give them a chop out on the weekends.

[Remi Moses]

This is a real perspective thread.
I'm just wondering when the recruiting dept and coaching staff pull the trigger and look at speed ,breaking lines and kicking skills. Think we've just about mastered the contested side.

Geelong where we look at as a template have added skill and run to their list over the last couple of years.
Not having a crack at Brendan, because Geelong should be the example .

[jeemak]

I think our hand was forced by having two players in Wallis and Liberatore available to us at the picks they were. We couldn't not take them, even if they were of a reasonably similar cut.

This year we've gone with an obvious gun forward/utility which was a player we needed just as desperately as a quick mover with good skills, and we pulled the trigger on the latter type of player anyway with MacRae. It will be interesting to see how Hrovat goes once he's got his body right. We've also taken in Prudden and Hunt, with the latter being a potential forward utility back up and the former being another cleaner midfielder.

I still think we need to pick up a good user to play across half back, and a good user to play across half forward (who can kick goals) just as much as we need midfielders who are quick and can use it well.

We also need to take another KPF if given the opportunity (without reaching, if possible).

Once we have these guys on our list there's a fair chance they won't play in the exact positions we might have drafted them for. I suppose the trick is to pick players who are versatile, and recognise that even if they don't have the capability to fill the specific needs they were picked for, they might have other attributes to fulfil different places on the list over time.

For instance, a player like Hunter with his reportedly good aerobic capacity might have to change his game to survive as an AFL player and become a defensive midfielder etc, rather than a goal scoring forward or attacking midfielder.

[Mantis]

They were in a similar position to us being in their Premiership window with lots of mature players (except they were winning them) but they were still developing and bringing in talent .... Sadly we were not.

That's just a flat out lie.

In 2009 we played about 12 players who had played less than 50 games.... Some for just 1 or 2 games, but many others for 5 or more. Why many of those are no longer with us is cause for discussion, but say we weren't trying to add young players to the team is rubbish.

[Mofra]

For instance, a player like Hunter with his reportedly good aerobic capacity might have to change his game to survive as an AFL player and become a defensive midfielder etc, rather than a goal scoring forward or attacking midfielder.
Pretty sure developing his defensive game was made a focus of his entire TAC u18 year.

He topped agility testing at draft camp too IIRC - solid base to work from.

[bornadog]

Its a glaring stat and a reminder that we need to be patient and allow the list to develop. In two years the likes of Cordy, Roughead, Jones, Wallis, Liberatore, Dahlhaus will all be in this group and Smith, Stringer, Macrae, Hrovat, Stevens and Young will be knocking down the door to it.

Yes next year the picture will look totally different.

Have a look at this from the weekend.


Total Players By Games
Adelaide Games Western Bulldogs

11 Less than 50 14
6 50 to 99 1
2 100 to 149 1
3 150 or more 6



Total Players By Games
Melbourne Games GWS

11 Less than 50 17
5 50 to 99 4
5 100 to 149 1
1 150 or more 0


Gold Coast Games Port Adelaide

15 Less than 50 10
3 50 to 99 5
2 100 to 149 4
2 150 or more 3


Shows Melbourne should be better than they are, Port coming along nicely and we are in a similar stage as Gold Coast :eek:

[Sedat]

That's just a flat out lie.

In 2009 we played about 12 players who had played less than 50 games.... Some for just 1 or 2 games, but many others for 5 or more. Why many of those are no longer with us is cause for discussion, but say we weren't trying to add young players to the team is rubbish.
Yep, plenty of re-writing of the history books going on to explain/justify our current plight.

Apart from Ward and Harbrow, our lack of 50-150 gamers in the current team can be traced back to the following names: Jesse Wells, Cameron Wight, Travis Baird, Michael West, Andrejs Everitt, Brennan Stack, Josh Hill, Malcolm Lynch, Paul O'Shea, Jarrad Grant, Sam Reid, Guy O'Keefe, Jarrad Boumann, Christian Howard, Lukas Markovic, Shane Thorne. That is 5 years of national draft recruiting that, save for 2008, has been an unmitigated disaster. Our national draft recruiting from 2000-2003 wasn't much better - actually it is a miracle that we were so competitive in the 2nd half of last decade when our ND recruiting after 1999 has probably been the worstin the AFL. Thank goodness we have been able to nail the rookie drafts in that time otherwise we would have been stuffed.

And this is why Gold Coast will not be troubling September much in the next few years.

[LostDoggy]

The repositioning of this stat can go two ways - moneyball like Melb did (Dawes, Rodan, Byrnes) to fill the void, or rebuild and wait a couple of years for the void to be filled by recent draftees and correct age bracket trades (Young and Stevens)

I'd prefer the build fromt he draft as opposed to a quick fix for games sake.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Yep, plenty of re-writing of the history books going on to explain/justify our current plight.

Apart from Ward and Harbrow, our lack of 50-150 gamers in the current team can be traced back to the following names: Jesse Wells, Cameron Wight, Travis Baird, Michael West, Andrejs Everitt, Brennan Stack, Josh Hill, Malcolm Lynch, Paul O'Shea, Jarrad Grant, Sam Reid, Guy O'Keefe, Jarrad Boumann, Christian Howard, Lukas Markovic, Shane Thorne. That is 5 years of national draft recruiting that, save for 2008, has been an unmitigated disaster. Our national draft recruiting from 2000-2003 wasn't much better - actually it is a miracle that we were so competitive in the 2nd half of last decade when our ND recruiting after 1999 has probably been the worstin the AFL. Thank goodness we have been able to nail the rookie drafts in that time otherwise we would have been stuffed.

And this is why Gold Coast will not be troubling September much in the next few years.

This post for me Sedat is the most telling of how we are where we are. Five years drafting to yield so little! Thank God as you say that we got Morris and Boyd from the rookie drafts. Of course we also got Barry Hall and Jason Akermanis for a song but only for a couple of seasons.
Your post also underlines what bloodletting we did for the expansion teams in losing our great drafting and development of Ward and Harbrow.
We are due for some returns from the ND, and I mean some great 100+ gamers. (Random thought: What's happened to Ted Whitten's genes. Has Ted jnr propagated?)

[BornInDroopSt'54]

The repositioning of this stat can go two ways - moneyball like Melb did (Dawes, Rodan, Byrnes) to fill the void, or rebuild and wait a couple of years for the void to be filled by recent draftees and correct age bracket trades (Young and Stevens)

I'd prefer the build fromt he draft as opposed to a quick fix for games sake.

Agreed MRM its the most organic way, and the cheapest. Just like growing your own vegies. Sad to say vegies won't grow in Melbourne CBD, no backyards.

[F'scary]

Thank goodness we have been able to nail the rookie drafts in that time otherwise we would have been stuffed.



But before we give thanks to the footy gods for our prescience in the rookie draft, consider Mulligan, Hooper, Skinner and.....(wait for it, drumroll)...Ed Barlow :eek:

[Sedat]

But before we give thanks to the footy gods for our prescience in the rookie draft, consider Mulligan, Hooper, Skinner and.....(wait for it, drumroll)...Ed Barlow :eek:
I am currently the sole occupant in the Ed Barlow bandwagon :o (although I still reckon he'd be a better 2nd ruckman than Cordy right now). Anyway it was nice for someone else other than Crossy to win the pre-season time trial for 1 year at least :D

[Greystache]

I am currently the sole occupant in the Ed Barlow bandwagon :o (although I still reckon he'd be a better 2nd ruckman than Cordy right now). Anyway it was nice for someone else other than Crossy to win the pre-season time trial for 1 year at least :D

Despite having to stop to tie up his shoelace :eek:

The man should take up rowing, he was born to be a champion. Too bad he wasted so much time trying to play football. ;)

[Mantis]

I am currently the sole occupant in the Ed Barlow bandwagon :o (although I still reckon he'd be a better 2nd ruckman than Cordy right now). Anyway it was nice for someone else other than Crossy to win the pre-season time trial for 1 year at least :D

Is there room for me?

I would have hung onto him, and would be playing him now... Yep he is a battler, but he could get up and down the ground and had a very good work ethic.

[F'scary]

Is there room for me?

I would have hung onto him, and would be playing him now... Yep he is a battler, but he could get up and down the ground and had a very good work ethic.

To tell the truth, I was in his bandwagon too, but since I get lynch-mobbed for even daring to suggest that Cordy is a dud, I had to find another whipping boy and the departed Barlow seemed a safe option.

Redraft Barlow, Macca! Offer Cordy as trade bait to whichever WAFL/SANFL club Barlow is playing at.

[EasternWest]

To tell the truth, I was in his bandwagon too, but since I get lynch-mobbed for even daring to suggest that Cordy is a dud, I had to find another whipping boy and the departed Barlow seemed a safe option.

Redraft Barlow, Macca! Offer Cordy as trade bait to whichever WAFL/SANFL club Barlow is playing at.

For me the jury is still out on Cordy, but he's shown frustrating glimpses that he might make it, and that's the biggest annoyance.

As for Barlow, I would certainly have kept him for another year, maybe two. He was a known quantity, and was never going to be a long term part of the club, but we could use his fitness and mobility right about now.

[Go_Dogs]

Despite having to stop to tie up his shoelace :eek:

The man should take up rowing, he was born to be a champion. Too bad he wasted so much time trying to play football. ;)

Very good physical specimen for rowing. No money to be made though, so financially it's an easy decision.

[Maddog37]

For me the jury is still out on Cordy, but he's shown frustrating glimpses that he might make it, and that's the biggest annoyance.

As for Barlow, I would certainly have kept him for another year, maybe two. He was a known quantity, and was never going to be a long term part of the club, but we could use his fitness and mobility right about now.

Cordy aside, as Barlow would not be a second ruck you would think, who would miss out on a game for Cheesey?

[Prince Imperial]

I am currently the sole occupant in the Ed Barlow bandwagon :o (although I still reckon he'd be a better 2nd ruckman than Cordy right now). Anyway it was nice for someone else other than Crossy to win the pre-season time trial for 1 year at least :D

Ed wasn't a ruckman but you're not alone in thinking he was that not that bad. Averaged 17 disposals a game with us (including an average of 9 contested). I thought he was a bit unlucky to get the boot at the end of 2011 when others such as Mulligan were on our list the next year.

[Sedat]

Cordy aside, as Barlow would not be a second ruck you would think, who would miss out on a game for Cheesey?
I'd play him as your classic utility, which means 2nd ruck for 5-7 mins a quarter to give Will a chop-out (straight swap for Cordy), with the rest of the time filling gaps down back, in the middle or up forward as required. He certainly ran hard down the wings to provide an option for our defenders to kick to - invariably he wouldn't take the mark but he'd force a stoppage out of bounds every time.

[Maddog37]

I was a Cheesey fan too but which player gets dropped for him?

[Sedat]

I was a Cheesey fan too but which player gets dropped for him?
For mine, Cordy.

[F'scary]

For mine, Cordy.

No comment (but I agree). While I replying, can I take this opportunity, Sedat, to say that if you were to contemporise your avatar it would look pretty much the same - but the eyebrows would be plucked. :)

[EasternWest]

Cordy aside, as Barlow would not be a second ruck you would think, who would miss out on a game for Cheesey?

Tough one. I don't really have an answer. The obvious is Cordy, but we've put so much time into him we have to find out if he's going to improve or not.

[Hotdog60]

(Random thought: What's happened to Ted Whitten's genes. Has Ted jnr propagated?)

Dean Whitten was 18 in 2003 so he didn't make it.
Jorrod I think was a younger brother and he didn't make it either.

Both played last year for Anglesea football club.

This info maybe wrong as it was from unverified sources, but these two players are listed on Anglesea's web site.

[LostDoggy]

I liked Barlow but 18 clubs can't all be wrong, if he was decent he'd be on a list, people are talking as if he should be in the 22.

I still reckon Cordy will be well regarded in 2-3 years. 100 to 150 games for this this guy will see his value. I had about 3 years of making donkey noises at Hawkins, sadly in the past now.

[jeemak]

I liked Barlow but 18 clubs can't all be wrong, if he was decent he'd be on a list, people are talking as if he should be in the 22.

I still reckon Cordy will be well regarded in 2-3 years. 100 to 150 games for this this guy will see his value. I had about 3 years of making donkey noises at Hawkins, sadly in the past now.

Interesting that Hawkins could barely make an impact in an exceptional team when he first started playing, even with the physical attributes he had at his disposal.

[Remi Moses]

Funny you should say that Jeemak.
Family dinner last night the same comparison was made.
I guess it's just the great unknown on Ayce.
Just gotta keep persevering

[w3design]

I liked Barlow but 18 clubs can't all be wrong, if he was decent he'd be on a list, people are talking as if he should be in the 22.

I still reckon Cordy will be well regarded in 2-3 years. 100 to 150 games for this this guy will see his value. I had about 3 years of making donkey noises at Hawkins, sadly in the past now.

100% Marco, on the baby giraffe [ Ayce]. We are also playing him out of position due to the lack of a genuine FF.
I reckon also that if his body holds together, he might just have quite a few on here eating humble pie in a few years.
Some time back, I also mentioned in a post the fact that Hawkins was seen as a complete dud by a lot of footy fans, including plenty of Geelong supporters.
Once he got a few games and pre-seasons under his belt, no more ugly duckling.

Keep the faith guys.;)

[F'scary]

Interesting that Hawkins could barely make an impact in an exceptional team when he first started playing, even with the physical attributes he had at his disposal.

Sorry but Hawkins made a huge impact in his first game. But then the moron (but a lucky moron at that) coaching the cats had the genius to take him off the ground well before the game ended and then persistently play him in the reserves until he lost all form and became a young player beset by self-confidence deficits and frustration. It took several years for him to regain the form and confidence he showed straight up and the Cats belatedly did what they should have done in his first season and they had to do it (just start playing him) because in part it was psychotherapy to retrieve a player they nearly destroyed.

Please don't anyone turn this into an argument for playing Cordy week in and week out. The facts of the respective cases are entirely different.

[westdog54]

Sorry but Hawkins made a huge impact in his first game. But then the moron (but a lucky moron at that) coaching the cats had the genius to take him off the ground well before the game ended and then persistently play him in the reserves until he lost all form and became a young player beset by self-confidence deficits and frustration. It took several years for him to regain the form and confidence he showed straight up and the Cats belatedly did what they should have done in his first season and they had to do it (just start playing him) because in part it was psychotherapy to retrieve a player they nearly destroyed.

Please don't anyone turn this into an argument for playing Cordy week in and week out. The facts of the respective cases are entirely different.

His first game? Please. They towelled up an inept and leaderless Richmond that day and the midfield were playing lace-out footy. Redpath would have performed at Hawkins' level that day.

[Maddog37]

There are no facts in footy, only opinions and statistics.

[lemmon]

Barlow=Justin Westhoff Mk II? :p

[LostDoggy]

There are no facts in footy, only opinions and statistics.
Here's one.
Chris Grant was, is, and will always be a Legend. ........FACT.

[Remi Moses]

Sorry but Hawkins made a huge impact in his first game. But then the moron (but a lucky moron at that) coaching the cats had the genius to take him off the ground well before the game ended and then persistently play him in the reserves until he lost all form and became a young player beset by self-confidence deficits and frustration. It took several years for him to regain the form and confidence he showed straight up and the Cats belatedly did what they should have done in his first season and they had to do it (just start playing him) because in part it was psychotherapy to retrieve a player they nearly destroyed.

Please don't anyone turn this into an argument for playing Cordy week in and week out. The facts of the respective cases are entirely different.

Wish we had a lucky moron to coach us to premierships:eek:
I think Hawkins beat up on Nathan Carroll in his first game.
He actually played in a pretty handy outfit as well and took an eternity to find his feet.
In fact quite a few pundits had doubts on Hawkins making it.

[Greystache]

Wish we had a lucky moron to coach us to premierships:eek:
I think Hawkins beat up on Nathan Carroll in his first game.
He actually played in a pretty handy outfit as well and took an eternity to find his feet.
In fact quite a few pundits had doubts on Hawkins making it.

It's worth noting that Hawkins was actually younger than Cordy is now when he tore the Grand Final apart and should have won the Norm Smith. It's funny how it's viewed that Hawkins took forever but Cordy is just a baby.

[westdog54]

It's worth noting that Hawkins was actually younger than Cordy is now when he tore the Grand Final apart and should have won the Norm Smith. It's funny how it's viewed that Hawkins took forever but Cordy is just a baby.

I'd answer that by pointing out that Cordy lost a lot of time to injuries during the arly stages of his career, whilst Hawkins has had a pretty good run in this regard.

[jeemak]

It's worth noting that Hawkins was actually younger than Cordy is now when he tore the Grand Final apart and should have won the Norm Smith. It's funny how it's viewed that Hawkins took forever but Cordy is just a baby.

'stache, do you give any consideration (or lenience) to injury when judging Cordy's current level of development?

[Greystache]

'stache, do you give any consideration (or lenience) to injury when judging Cordy's current level of development?

I do, but I also saw him before and after injuries and I nearly always walked away thinking what do people see that I can't. He played almost his entire first season at Williamstown injury free and looked more like a lumbering winger than a key position player, he's also been pretty much injury free for the past 2-3 years now.

Players like Hawkins, J Riewoldt, Brown, Cloke etc even when skinny kids all had one thing that was clear from day one, they could take a mark and demand the footy. Cordy is nearly 23 and doesn't look even close to being able to do that. I'm conscious I appear to be constantly Cordy bashing, but I'm concerned that we're pumping games into a player that we just assume will develop, but it's really not based on anything other than hope and his draft profile saying he had amazing athleticism. The time he should be showing rapid improvement is now, but as the match committee has agreed with me on, he's been a real disappointment.

[Ghost Dog]

It's worth noting that Hawkins was actually younger than Cordy is now when he tore the Grand Final apart and should have won the Norm Smith. It's funny how it's viewed that Hawkins took forever but Cordy is just a baby.

Ok - so you don't rate Cordy and don't think he'll make it.

[Greystache]

Ok - so you don't rate Cordy and don't think he'll make it.

I hardly need you to summarise my thoughts.

[LostDoggy]

My only worry is that in a few years some of the better players are out of contract and we cant keep them. Wont be a money problem, but the short term lure of finals at a bigger club could be a catalyst to jump ship.

Stringer and McCrae 2 years down the track will be prime targets for other clubs. Lets hope we aren't going to be used as a breeding ground for young talent.

[Mofra]

I do, but I also saw him before and after injuries and I nearly always walked away thinking what do people see that I can't. He played almost his entire first season at Williamstown injury free and looked more like a lumbering winger than a key position player, he's also been pretty much injury free for the past 2-3 years now.
Really? I saw him play on the HF line multiple times and I was impressed with his workrate as a first year player.

He's a much better player when leading at the ball, it seems he doesn't lead as much at AFL level. Whether that is because he is being out positioned or he is being coached to become a stay at hom FP, I don't know.

[jeemak]

I do, but I also saw him before and after injuries and I nearly always walked away thinking what do people see that I can't. He played almost his entire first season at Williamstown injury free and looked more like a lumbering winger than a key position player, he's also been pretty much injury free for the past 2-3 years now.

Players like Hawkins, J Riewoldt, Brown, Cloke etc even when skinny kids all had one thing that was clear from day one, they could take a mark and demand the footy. Cordy is nearly 23 and doesn't look even close to being able to do that. I'm conscious I appear to be constantly Cordy bashing, but I'm concerned that we're pumping games into a player that we just assume will develop, but it's really not based on anything other than hope and his draft profile saying he had amazing athleticism. The time he should be showing rapid improvement is now, but as the match committee has agreed with me on, he's been a real disappointment.

Thanks.

I didn't have the benefit of seeing him up close in his first year on the list. Having said that, I don't think he's ever been considered to be in the same bracket as KPF prospects as any of the above you've mentioned, instead, I've always thought him to be classified as a rucking prospect currently learning his forward craft. None of the players you've mentioned had the physical limitations Cordy started his career with.

When I couple the two years spent hampered by injury and his physical development (weight gain) I agree now is the time he needs to show more consistency in output. He's up against it because we aren't a team that offers quick and clean supply to our tall forwards, though this shouldn't hamper his enthusiasm for the contest, or effort.

Perhaps some time in the forward line of a team that is offering that service will be the tonic he needs. Initially I would have preferred us to keep perservering with him in the senior side, though I'm softening towards the prospect of him consolidating form at Williamstown.

[Sedat]

When I couple the two years spent hampered by injury and his physical development (weight gain) I agree now is the time he needs to show more consistency in output. He's up against it because we aren't a team that offers quick and clean supply to our tall forwards, though this shouldn't hamper his enthusiasm for the contest, or effort.
And therein lies the problem with Cordy as a KPF - the hunger to compete doesn't come naturally to him.

[jeemak]

And therein lies the problem with Cordy as a KPF - the hunger to compete doesn't come naturally to him.

I suppose I see him (and Grant) as the opposition stretching match-ups in our future forward line when Stringer and Jones require the complete attention of the better taller key defenders to keep them quiet. If he's able to do that as a second or first ruckman I'll be happy.

At the moment he's being defended by those used to manning competent one and two forwards, and this coupled with our incompetence as a football team across the ground right now leaves him pretty well up against it considering his level of development.

[Bulldog4life]

I remember Cords playing some reasonable to good games with Willy at centre half back. Proves he can be versatile. Maybe they can try him there again at Willy with Wood and Campbell both in the side. I am in the camp that thinks it is far too early to decide if Ayce will or can't make it. Ayce is going to be with us for a few seasons more yet so let's get behind him and support him and hopefully he will succeed and become a very good player for the doggies.

[Greystache]

Really? I saw him play on the HF line multiple times and I was impressed with his workrate as a first year player.

He's a much better player when leading at the ball, it seems he doesn't lead as much at AFL level. Whether that is because he is being out positioned or he is being coached to become a stay at hom FP, I don't know.

I agree with your assessment, I was impressed with his work rate at Williamstown, but I looked at him and I saw a Robert Murphy type minus the agility, not a key position player.

[F'scary]

Wish we had a lucky moron to coach us to premierships:eek:
I think Hawkins beat up on Nathan Carroll in his first game.
He actually played in a pretty handy outfit as well and took an eternity to find his feet.
In fact quite a few pundits had doubts on Hawkins making it.

That's what I think of coaches who take a player off at half time because he is playing above expectations. Crazy. But you do see it from time to time. Should have left him on to boot 6+ in his first game. That's how legends are made.