Years of struggle for Dogs

[bornadog]

Link (http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/years-of-struggle-for-dogs-20130520-2jx08.html)

Western Bulldogs football director Chris Grant admits it has been ''painful'' to watch his team this season, but says the rebuilding process can only be judged in three to five years.
The Bulldogs have won only one of their past 19 matches, against the Brisbane Lions in round one this season, and remain in the early stages of a rebuild under coach Brendan McCartney, who is in the second year of a three-year contract.

Grant said he was still confident the Bulldogs were ahead of expansion teams Gold Coast and Greater Western Sydney in terms of development, was happy with the individual development of several players, but admitted there were major holes which may have to be addressed through trade and free agency.

''We identified 18 months ago this is going to be painful. We know it's going to be bloody hard to watch at times, but we are very, very committed to making sure this group of players are a large group of players that will all come through together, that will all play a variety of positions. But we will still have to add to that,'' Grant said.

''It's almost like we are developing but still have to recruit at the same time.
''We haven't recruited them all at the moment. When it does turn, it turns reasonably quickly.''

Grant, the AFL great and former Bulldogs captain, said he could understand supporter unrest but the Bulldogs were determined and had the patience to rebuild with young talent, as opposed to securing older players who would not fit their long-term ambitions.
Failed older recruits include Justin Sherman and Nathan Djerrkura, mistakes included early upgrades of Andrew Hooper, Matthew Panos and James Mulligan from the rookie list, but the club suffered by losing Jarrod Harbrow and Callan Ward to expansion teams. The Dogs used the compensation pick from Harbrow on Sherman, who was delisted last year despite having a year to run on a lucrative contract.

''The reality is, it's years, not months,'' Grant said of the rebuild. ''I think 18 months when we sat and actually talked about what the plan is going to be, realistically we are talking about years.

''Now, is that two years or five
years? The end result will be what we are all judged on. What will our team look like in the next three to five years? That's what we will be judged on.
''It's very difficult for supporters to go through that period with us because we are all emotional about it, but the reality is we are only 18 months in. In that short amount of time so far, we have Thomas Liberatore, Mitchell Wallis, [Jake] Stringer, [Jackson] Macrae, [Luke] Dahlhaus, Clay Smith, Jordan Roughead … there are a large number of players perhaps exceeding what even we thought they were capable of.''

Stringer and Macrae, both draft picks last season, have shown enormous potential.
Grant was unsure if Dale Thomas, the out-of-contract Collingwood midfielder, fits the club's criteria. Thomas turns 26 next month.

''Whoever it is, whether it is 'Daisy' Thomas or whoever it is in the free-agency area, or someone that we can actually prise from another club, they have to meet all the criteria we are after because [those types of players] are there at draft time,'' he said.
''When you get to the national draft, we believe we can draft those types of players, it's just that they are a hell of a lot younger and they are underdeveloped. Unless you can get someone you know you can get 10 or 15 years of a career out of, we are reluctant to go for someone like that.''

Former West Coast player Koby Stevens fitted that criteria when he was snared during last year's trade period.

[bornadog]

Link (http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/years-of-struggle-for-dogs-20130520-2jx08.html)

Failed older recruits include Justin Sherman and Nathan Djerrkura, mistakes included early upgrades of Andrew Hooper, Matthew Panos and James Mulligan from the rookie list, but the club suffered by losing Jarrod Harbrow and Callan Ward to expansion teams. The Dogs used the compensation pick from Harbrow on Sherman, who was delisted last year despite having a year to run on a lucrative contract.

This is why Fantasia had to go.

[Ghost Dog]

Bollocks. As much as I love Chris Grant, I refuse to believe we are getting the most out of our current group and have to sit with folded arms and suffer beatings for the next two years until we start getting wins.
Brisbane showed it, Freo show it. You can beat the odds by smart set ups and demanding non-negotiable efforts defensively when you don't have the ball. That doesn't mean finals, but it equates to wins, and that turns into positive things.

And Chris should know. In 1996 we were cellar dwellers. In 1997 we made a preliminary final. With almost the same team.

Supporters have seen what happens when administrators ask you to wait 2 or three years at Melbourne. It may never come. Game by game boys, and prepare to fire up V the Saints.

[The Doctor]

This is why Fantasia had to go.

Agreed, he is the primary reason we are in the sh!t we are in?

[Remi Moses]

Bollocks. As much as I love Chris Grant, I refuse to believe we are getting the most out of our current group and have to sit with folded arms and suffer beatings for the next two years until we start getting wins.
Brisbane showed it, Freo show it. You can beat the odds by smart set ups and demanding non-negotiable efforts defensively when you don't have the ball. That doesn't mean finals, but it equates to wins, and that turns into positive things.

And Chris should know. In 1996 we were cellar dwellers. In 1997 we made a preliminary final. With almost the same team.

Supporters have seen what happens when administrators ask you to wait 2 or three years at Melbourne. It may never come. Game by game boys, and prepare to fire up V the Saints.

The games done a 360 since 1996 97. The mistakes ( and there are plenty) from messers Rocket, Fantasia and Clayton have contributed largely to our current mess.
Wouldn't think that could be debatable.

[Greystache]

This is why Fantasia had to go.

Do you honestly believe he was solely responsible for those decisions, and that the senior coach didn't make the call?

[jeemak]

Bollocks. As much as I love Chris Grant, I refuse to believe we are getting the most out of our current group and have to sit with folded arms and suffer beatings for the next two years until we start getting wins.
Brisbane showed it, Freo show it. You can beat the odds by smart set ups and demanding non-negotiable efforts defensively when you don't have the ball. That doesn't mean finals, but it equates to wins, and that turns into positive things.

And Chris should know. In 1996 we were cellar dwellers. In 1997 we made a preliminary final. With almost the same team.

Supporters have seen what happens when administrators ask you to wait 2 or three years at Melbourne. It may never come. Game by game boys, and prepare to fire up V the Saints.


The games done a 360 since 1996 97. The mistakes ( and there are plenty) from messers Rocket, Fantasia and Clayton have contributed largely to our current mess.
Wouldn't think that could be debatable.

Tend to agree Remi.

GD, I think we might need to reassess the impact our senior core is capable of having on games. Murphy, Giansiracusa, Griffen, Boyd, Cross, Cooney, Morris and Minson aren't capable of carrying the young and inexperienced players on our list.

Until these younger players develop times are going to be tough, and we need to strike a balance between developing them to fulfil their talent for the long term and being more competitive on a week to week basis.

I've been disappointed with strategies, and the seemingly poor thought that goes into working for each other in the heat of the contest. It's going to take a long time to turn this around.

[The Doctor]

Do you honestly believe he was solely responsible for those decisions, and that the senior coach didn't make the call?

Wasn't he in charge of the football dept? The coach answered to him, didn't the coach along with the recruiting staff report to him?

[G-Mo77]

Do you honestly believe he was solely responsible for those decisions, and that the senior coach didn't make the call?

How much say does the coach have? I'm not sure on the process of this and would be interested if someone actually knows how this works.

My scenario is with Eade and Fantasia....

So say they had Player A, B and C out of contract and player D and E available from another club. What's the process?


a. Eade says he wants player A & C re-signed and to go after E. Fantasia goes to work.
b. Fantasia says we can resign player B & C and go after D. Eade works with the outcome
c. Discuss and decide together who and what works.


I'm really interested how it officially works. I've heard Fantasia may have chose option b. at times.

I would assume contract lengths are decided by Fantasia in this scenario.

[Greystache]

Wasn't he in charge of the football dept? The coach answered to him, didn't the coach along with the recruiting staff report to him?

So he failed in his duties for not overuling poor decisions the coaching staff wanted to make?

I've only ever heard he was solely responsible for those decisions, which of course is absurd.

[chef]

Agreed, he is the primary reason we are in the sh!t we are in?

Eade and Clayton are as much to blame.

[Twodogs]

I've been disappointed with strategies, and the seemingly poor thought that goes into working for each other in the heat of the contest. It's going to take a long time to turn this around.


The best teams these days play to a structure. Do we have a structure? What I see is 15-16 of our players swarming around the ball and one player at either end.

[MrMahatma]

Eade and Clayton are as much to blame.
In fairness to Eade, he lived and died by win:loss and had to try everything to nab a flag. And was unlucky to not get at least to a play off.

Recruiters and footy directors should be about sustainable success always. When a coach has a decent list it's up to them to go for the flag.

[Mantis]

Grant said he was still confident the Bulldogs were ahead of expansion teams Gold Coast and Greater Western Sydney in terms of development, was happy with the individual development of several players, but admitted there were major holes which may have to be addressed through trade and free agency.

No we are not... They are a long way ahead of us and if there list stays together they are going to be awful hard to catch.



''We identified 18 months ago this is going to be painful. We know it's going to be bloody hard to watch at times, but we are very, very committed to making sure this group of players are a large group of players that will all come through together, that will all play a variety of positions. But we will still have to add to that,'' Grant said.

It's more than 'at' times... it's most of the time.



''It's very difficult for supporters to go through that period with us because we are all emotional about it, but the reality is we are only 18 months in. In that short amount of time so far, we have Thomas Liberatore, Mitchell Wallis, [Jake] Stringer, [Jackson] Macrae, [Luke] Dahlhaus, Clay Smith, Jordan Roughead … there are a large number of players perhaps exceeding what even we thought they were capable of.''.

Large number??

The only players not listed who would be exceeding expectations would be JJ & Young.



Unless you can get someone you know you can get 10 or 15 years of a career out of, we are reluctant to go for someone like that.''

Former West Coast player Koby Stevens fitted that criteria when he was snared during last year's trade period.

From what we have seen so far Stevens hasn't shown that he is going be a 150-200 game player for us... Struggling so far, but he may still be in an adjustment period working out how we want to use him.

---------

Going to be a long 3 years... Let's hope we have the right people & players in place because it's going to be bloody disappointing if we have to go along for a tough ride only to be in no better position when the job is done.

[LostDoggy]

The best teams these days play to a structure. Do we have a structure? What I see is 15-16 of our players swarming around the ball and one player at either end.

Absolutely spot on.

One of the basic stuctures is the set-up for kick-ins. Watching the Gold Coast game at the venue allowed a view of the whole set-up which you can't see on television.

The kick-in set-up was an indictment on the coaching staff. The ball came straight back in so many times whilst up the other end Gold Coast were free to get the ball in with little to no defensive pressure.

I don't care whether we have so many young bodies or players with just a few games experience, this set-up is a non-negotiable and we are (or we were on Saturday) so poor at it. This is what coaching is all about and no amount of spin will defend it.

Our set-up around stoppages also comes into question. Minson absolutely dominated this area especially once Smith went down and before the usual candidates question the value of the hit-out statistic his "to advantage" hit-outs were so plentiful that we should have cleared the ball effortlessly time and again. But this just didn't happen. Again, where's the structure?

Currently, our lack of structure reminds me of the Rhode years. When we lose posession, the opposition streams down the ground with a number of options to kick to unopposed forwards. Where are our defenders? As Twodogs says, up in the middle of the ground swarming around the ball like the Under 10's.

Is the struture there or are players continually disobeying instructions? I reckon it might be the former.

[Mofra]

The best teams these days play to a structure. Do we have a structure? What I see is 15-16 of our players swarming around the ball and one player at either end.
Why do we all just assume that's the gameplan/structure we are going to stick with for the next few years?

I think we are behind other clubs with respect to running ability, and a good part of that is one the pre-season focus over the last two years; given coaching staff are only now starting to discuss the next phase (run and spread) that's what I expect to happen over the next pre-season.

[The Doctor]

Eade and Clayton are as much to blame.

and Dalrymple

[Mofra]

and Dalrymple
Dalrymple had a shocker in his first year (Howard, et al.) but is batting above average since then (albeit with a free kick in getting Wallis with Libba in round 2).

There's still time for him to become the "anti-Clayton" - shocker first year, getting better afterwards (take out Lake and what did Clayton do after 99?).

[chef]

and Dalrymple

And now Dalrymple. IMO it's more important for him to get things right than it is for anyone else.

His stuff ups(if he makes them) will still be felt in 10 years time.

[KT31]

Eade and Clayton are as much to blame.

I also think some blame must be put onto David Smorgon, we could all see what was happening and he was the leader of the club.

[chef]

I also think some blame must be put onto David Smorgon, we could all see what was happening and he was the leader of the club.

True.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Dalrymple had a shocker in his first year (Howard, et al.) but is batting above average since then (albeit with a free kick in getting Wallis with Libba in round 2).

There's still time for him to become the "anti-Clayton" - shocker first year, getting better afterwards (take out Lake and what did Clayton do after 99?).

Its arguable that he had a shocker in his first year because he followed the mantra of the coach to recruit elite kicks, and we reached on Howard and Tutt, and the perhaps Fantasia and Eade upgrading dud rookies.

Im not trying to absolve Dalrymple of responsibility, but do we really think Bomber, Brad Scott told or tell Stephen Wells who to recruit?

That said McCartney may have made the same mistake in Year 1 by imposing his will on the recruiting department also, but recruiters I have spoken to felt Smith was a very worthy pick where we got him.

What is clear is we need to get our recruiting right from here on out.

[Mofra]

Its arguable that he had a shocker in his first year because he followed the mantra of the coach to recruit elite kicks, and we reached on Howard and Tutt, and the perhaps Fantasia and Eade upgrading dud rookies.

Im not trying to absolve Dalrymple of responsibility, but do we really think Bomber, Brad Scott told or tell Stephen Wells who to recruit?
That's quite possible; B-Mac certainly has a hand in Clay Smith being our first selection (who already is ahead of both Howard & Tutt).

I do think the coach has some input into the type of player that is selected each round - isn't the video somewhere of Wallace discussing the Shane Birss selection (do we take the tall player or the better player)?

[Maddog37]

Macca said at the group presentations made to members that a matrix for recruiting was implemented and that before that there was no real documented system to follow. The system is in place now and he will live and die by it but as Granty says we will not know the outcome for several years.

One question I pose is that if we did get rid of Macca would we look back and say thanks for making the hard decisions when it came to list management? Would the work he has put in be a strong platform for a "better" coach to reap the benefits of his team development?

[Mantis]

Its arguable that he had a shocker in his first year because he followed the mantra of the coach to recruit elite kicks, and we reached on Howard and Tutt, and the perhaps Fantasia and Eade upgrading dud rookies.

Im not trying to absolve Dalrymple of responsibility, but do we really think Bomber, Brad Scott told or tell Stephen Wells who to recruit?.

We were after elite kicks as both Gilbee & Eagleton were in decline, but first and foremost we were after talented players and I think Dalrymple only followed the firts point... which might be understandable for someone in his position (1st draft in charge)


That said McCartney may have made the same mistake in Year 1 by imposing his will on the recruiting department also, but recruiters I have spoken to felt Smith was a very worthy pick where we got him.

What is clear is we need to get our recruiting right from here on out.

I think the main issue with him is the type of player he is. ie. hard-nut, average skills

We were crying out for run, carry & skills and by-passed these for a type we already had a few of.

[Bulldog4life]

Unfortunately the longer the rebuild takes more members will drop off. This is a huge problem as our Club cannot afford our membership base to diminish.

[G-Mo77]

Unfortunately the longer the rebuild takes more members will drop off. This is a huge problem as our Club cannot afford our membership base to diminish.

Which is why I hoped they planned for this drop financially. I honestly think the word "refresh" was used instead of rebuild to give supporters a bit more hope and help hold onto members, IMO that backfired on them. That being said I'd hate to see the club make poor decisions because of pressure from fans who watch from their couch. Constant coaching changes, quick fixes to speed things up at the expense of picks and development are not they way to rebuild a club. We've been through this not long ago and come out OKI'm confident we'll do it again.

[Mantis]

Unfortunately the longer the rebuild takes more members will drop off. This is a huge problem as our Club cannot afford our membership base to diminish.

Especially when we have to fund our own VFL team next year.

[kruder]

And now Dalrymple. IMO it's more important for him to get things right than it is for anyone else.

His stuff ups(if he makes them) will still be felt in 10 years time.

I think you will find he is very good at his job. Don't just diss him because of Howard.

[chef]

I think you will find he is very good at his job. Don't just diss him because of Howard.

I think you have misinterpreted what I have posted.

[SonofScray]

I also think some blame must be put onto David Smorgon, we could all see what was happening and he was the leader of the club.

100% agree. His last few seasons at the helm were poor.

[LostDoggy]

No we are not... They are a long way ahead of us and if there list stays together they are going to be awful hard to catch.

I know they have a bigger salary cap but that's still a pretty big “if”, Mantis. Having said that, I do think they'll enjoy a few years of being ahead of the pack.


Large number??

The only players not listed who would be exceeding expectations would be JJ & Young.

That makes 9 players — half the match day team. If we have another few years of drafting, say we get 2-4 good ones each ND/rookie draft, in 3 years' time we'll have 6-12 to add to that 9. That's not counting current strugglers who may find their feet or free-agency/trade pickups.


Going to be a long 3 years... Let's hope we have the right people & players in place because it's going to be bloody disappointing if we have to go along for a tough ride only to be in no better position when the job is done.

This is it for me. Happy to be patient but when the time is up, better deliver, boys.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

100% agree. His last few seasons at the helm were poor.

Smorgon presided over 5 Pre-lim finals during his time as President. It is very doubtful whether our 30 million dollar facility at the Western Oval would have been achieved without him at the helm. He helped bring respect to our Club from the AFL and his peers from other clubs. Being a Club President in particular at the WB is a thankless task. Peter Gordon was pleased to hand over the reins to David Smorgon after 7 years.
Smorgon was willing to give us 16 years of good leadership, which was exceptional.

[Throughandthrough]

Unfortunately the longer the rebuild takes more members will drop off. This is a huge problem as our Club cannot afford our membership base to diminish.

I bet they havent

If we only win 0,1 or 2 more matches by the end of this year, there will be no choice other than to make massive changes.

Otherwise, membership numbers will drop in droves, retaining members will reduce categories, Corporate sponsors will blame the tough economic climate and reduce sponsorship, When is Mission's contract up?we will get all the shitty timeslots again (no friday nights, Mothers day, etc) , "stadium negotiations will be laughed at.
Recruiting good players from other clubs wont be an option, players will want to leave.