Where is Matty Boyd at?

[bulldogtragic]

No histerics or reactional responses, but I think it's now fair to ask where Matty B is in the make up of the club. Disappointing is probably a fair description of how he is playing ATM. What should he be doing or what should the coach be doing??

[bulldogtragic]

Some of my thoughts from the game day thread:

Libba is a much better player without him. The output of Libba and another mid is much higher than Boyd and a restricted Libba. Moot point. He's captain and a nice bloke so nothing will happen.

[Eastdog]

How many possies has he had today but more importantly what is his disposal efficiency. It must really low.

[Topdog]

Pretty much the same as it has always been. Gets the ball a lot. Doesn't particularly use it well. Doesn't defend much.

[Eastdog]

Pretty much the same as it has always been. Gets the ball a lot. Doesn't particularly use it well. Doesn't defend much.

Yeah you need to do more to be an effective player than just getting the ball.

[chef]

Looks rusty to me and just needs some consecutive games.

[lemmon]

Some of my thoughts from the game day thread:

Libba is a much better player without him. The output of Libba and another mid is much higher than Boyd and a restricted Libba. Moot point. He's captain and a nice bloke so nothing will happen.

These are the stats for the year I posted in another thread, today's game excluded:
Just looking at his stats and his disposal average for the year is 25.25 without Boyd and drops to an average of 21 with Boyd in the side, his clearances also fall from 9.5 in games without Boyd to 6.5 in games with. It doesn't really correlate with a change in game time, he only really drops about 3% of game time when Boyd is in the middle. Clearances is probably the big stat, a 33% fall is significant in my book, does everyone just shuffle to slightly more outside when Boyd comes in?

[GVGjr]

Best to judge him after another game. Looks short of a gallop.

The concern is still around the turnovers with his skill execution.

[Mantis]

The concern is still around the turnovers with his skill execution.

His defensive game is almost non-existent too, that's ok if he offers plenty going our way, but he has no hurt factor.

[GVGjr]

His defensive game is almost non-existent too, that's ok if he offers plenty going our way, but he has no hurt factor.

Agreed, he needs to redefine his game as a more defensive player.

[Remi Moses]

No defensive side. Turns it over to often.
Cut him a bit of slack coming back from a calf injuries.

[bornadog]

Agreed, he needs to redefine his game as a more defensive player.

Is it too late to learn that at 31 years old.

[Ghost Dog]

You cannot have a player who dominates the possession area, thus preventing others from opportunitiess, then gifts it to opposition players.
He's my avatar, and love him dearly. But sadly, I've come to expect this every time he lays the boot into it.

[GVGjr]

Is it too late to learn that at 31 years old.

I don't think so. Liberatore adapted straight away.

[LostDoggy]

What's worse, as the captain he sets the standard, and the more he just bombs it forward the more the team does the same.

He's still best 22 for mine, but should relinquish the Big C at the end of the year.

[lemmon]

I don't think so. Liberatore adapted straight away.

If that is the way forward for Boyd I don't see how we fit Lower and Picken into the 22 with him

[Ghost Dog]

It's demoralizing for a young side to have a captain who does that. Young players, close your eyes when the captain kicks the ball! nothing to see here...move along.

[bulldogtragic]

It's demoralizing for a young side to have a captain who does that. It's ruining the development of young players.
Gotta say, I'm coming to this thought too. Just does not walk the walk.

[GVGjr]

If that is the way forward for Boyd I don't see how we fit Lower and Picken into the 22 with him

Picken can move forward and Boyd doesn't have to be super defensive just to keep a tighter check on an opponent.

[bulldogtragic]

Picken can move forward and Boyd doesn't have to be super defensive just to keep a tighter check on an opponent.
How does this address the fact he doesn't tackle enough, shepherd enough, hit enough targets, and stop turnovers. I know your very forgiving G, but you have more faith than most.

[GVGjr]

How does this address the fact he doesn't tackle enough, shepherd enough, hit enough targets, and stop turnovers. I know your very forgiving G, but you have more faith than most.

The tackling and shepherding 1 percenters are an absolute requirement. The skill level errors are certainly harder to fix.

[Go_Dogs]

Boyd doesn't have to be super defensive just to keep a tighter check on an opponent.

Surely that was the instruction today though? I'm fast losing patience with Boyd and I'm not convinced he's willing to sacrifice his game for the team to the extent we need him to.

I agree he looked a bit off today so I don't think he should be dropped based on today's game but if he can't improve his defensive work rate I'd prefer to bring in Wallis/Hrovat and keep pumping games into them.

[bulldogtragic]

The tackling and shepherding 1 percenters are an absolute requirement. The skill level errors are certainly harder to fix.
I would rather play kid with those deficiencies who can work through it than persist further in Boyd.

[Mofra]

Is it too late to learn that at 31 years old.
Ted Richards went from Swans 3rds at age 28 to AA CHB at age 29.
Boyd doesn't need to learn the defensive side of his game, he need to re-learn it given he did play a run-with style of game earlier in his career.

Right now he is captain next year be default (nobody else available).

[westdog54]

I would rather play kid with those deficiencies who can work through it than persist further in Boyd.

Sadly I'm inclined to agree.

I reckon telling Cross that he was going back to Willy was bloody painful for Macca. I could not begin to imagine how hard it would be to tap the Skipper on the shoulder. I hate, hate, hate the thought of it but it is rapidly getting to that stage.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I really can't see why Cross seems to have had his papers stamped and Boyd hasn't.

I think Cross was actually offering and delivering more than Boyd.

Contested marks around the ground, especially in defence, for example.

Boyd for me is a very much "See ball. Get ball. Kick ball" type of player.
But the "where should I kick the ball?" part of the process is applied very sparingly

[LostDoggy]

If ever the coaching team had an opportunity to hammer the point home, dropping Boyd is it.

[LostDoggy]

Ted Richards went from Swans 3rds at age 28 to AA CHB at age 29.
Boyd doesn't need to learn the defensive side of his game, he need to re-learn it given he did play a run-with style of game earlier in his career.

Right now he is captain next year be default (nobody else available).

No love for Murph? Think he steps into the role very easily or Gia if he plays on?

[Dry Rot]

I really can't see why Cross seems to have had his papers stamped and Boyd hasn't.

I think Cross was actually offering and delivering more than Boyd.

Contested marks around the ground, especially in defence, for example.

Boyd for me is a very much "See ball. Get ball. Kick ball" type of player.
But the "where should I kick the ball?" part of the process is applied very sparingly

Good post NB Cross. Has Boyd just been saved because of the "C" next to his name?

NB this problem with his game has been apparent for some time now, well before this season.

[MrMahatma]

Good post NB Cross. Has Boyd just been saved because of the "C" next to his name?

NB this problem with his game has been apparent for some time now, well before this season.
I think so. He shouldn't be captain next yr and played on form.

[LostDoggy]

He's one of few who runs hard all day, not a fan of dropping him. If some of our younger players worked half as hard as him, we'd be a completely different team.
Has ran out of steam a couple of times this year due to lack of match fitness but at least he's still working hard.

[AndrewP6]

Ted Richards went from Swans 3rds at age 28 to AA CHB at age 29.
Boyd doesn't need to learn the defensive side of his game, he need to re-learn it given he did play a run-with style of game earlier in his career.

Right now he is captain next year be default (nobody else available).

Griffen, Murphy and Minson.

[Happy Days]

Swan was BOG today, as he has been for the last several million times we have played Collingwood; it's the same reason Lenny Hayes kills us, the same reason Kieran Jack kills us, the same reason Matt Priddis kills us; because we send Boyd head to head with these dudes and he isn't good enough to keep up (coincidentally, it's the same reason we always beat Port, because he goes head to head with Broadbent who is just a poor Boyd imitation - I know he didn't play last time but beyond that the point remains)

Boyd does not offer us value as a downhill skier; he needs to get back to the defensive side of his game being paramount over everything else like it used to be. He needs to cop that there are at least 3 better midfielders than him (at this stage, I'd even feel more secure in Stevens being an offensive weapon than Boyd; at least he works hard both ways), and get back to what made him so good in the firs place; killing the oppositions best player and causing some sort of positive gain the other way. We've all been saying it for at least three years, but at this stage his refusal to do so could cost him his place in the side, instead of being really super annoying.

[Mofra]

No love for Murph? Think he steps into the role very easily or Gia if he plays on?
I think Gia will retire, and Murphy will possibly be in his last season next year.

Ideally we'd want someone who would be in the role for a few years.
Griffen seems a quiet type who just wants to concentrate on his football, then there's Minson for a year or two, then nobody.
Wallis is a few years away, convinced he'll make the garde but is still in development mode.

[LostDoggy]

Swan was BOG today, as he has been for the last several million times we have played Collingwood; it's the same reason Lenny Hayes kills us, the same reason Kieran Jack kills us, the same reason Matt Priddis kills us; because we send Boyd head to head with these dudes and he isn't good enough to keep up (coincidentally, it's the same reason we always beat Port, because he goes head to head with Broadbent who is just a poor Boyd imitation - I know he didn't play last time but beyond that the point remains)

Boyd does not offer us value as a downhill skier; he needs to get back to the defensive side of his game being paramount over everything else like it used to be. He needs to cop that there are at least 3 better midfielders than him (at this stage, I'd even feel more secure in Stevens being an offensive weapon than Boyd; at least he works hard both ways), and get back to what made him so good in the firs place; killing the oppositions best player and causing some sort of positive gain the other way. We've all been saying it for at least three years, but at this stage his refusal to do so could cost him his place in the side, instead of being really super annoying.

Is it Boyd's refusal or the coaching group's?

[ratsmac]

I'm not sure that a captain has ever been dropped before but Boyd must be close in my books. Yeah he runs hard all day, but when he is unaccountable and turns the ball over constantly, he is a liability on the field. A good captain leads by example on the field and l didn't see any good examples on the weekend.

I have enjoyed watching most of Matty's career but the last two years have been hit and miss for me.

[Eastdog]

I'm not sure that a captain has ever been dropped before but Boyd must be close in my books. Yeah he runs hard all day, but when he is unaccountable and turns the ball over constantly, he is a liability on the field. A good captain leads by example on the field and l didn't see any good examples on the weekend.

I have enjoyed watching most of Matty's career but the last two years have been hit and miss for me.

Why do you think his use of the footy has declined really badly and how can it be improved

[The bulldog tragician]

Is it Boyd's refusal or the coaching group's?

That to me is the nub of it. I recall Boyd getting quite narky when questioned in media about all the things that we fans seem to see clearly. He basically said, 'So long as the coaches are happy with me, that's all that matters.' he plays that way week in week out with no apparent consequences and given that he always matches up on Swan etc in a free flowing role, we have to assume that he is playing to instructions. Which is baffling.

Also agree that Cross has been hard done by in this regard - he offered unstinting bravery and played within limitations.

[Remi Moses]

My question is can a midfield have so many ordinary kickers in it?
Just to many for mine!!

[1eyedog]

Boyd is an oxymoron, he demands the highest of standards but fails to deliver with his own on the field. Boyd is an excellent clubman and a great leader off the field. He is well respected and anyone who has met him knows him to have the right balance of conviction, discipline and humility. Not all captains are in their clubs best three players and Boyd is our example of that, but he is a good player and could become a very good player again if he does as others here have suggested and relearns the craft that 'once' made him a very good player. His ability to win a lot of ball and negate his direct opponent is a rare gift, but Boyd had this in spades and it was the driver that lifted him up to one of the top 10 mids (perhaps even one of the best five mids) in the game at one stage.

He needs to either demand of the coaches that he is allowed to once again be super- accountable or he needs to expect this of himself. There are too many players in our team now who are as good as or better at doing the role that he is in the team to do.

[Remi Moses]

Swan was BOG today, as he has been for the last several million times we have played Collingwood; it's the same reason Lenny Hayes kills us, the same reason Kieran Jack kills us, the same reason Matt Priddis kills us; because we send Boyd head to head with these dudes and he isn't good enough to keep up (coincidentally, it's the same reason we always beat Port, because he goes head to head with Broadbent who is just a poor Boyd imitation - I know he didn't play last time but beyond that the point remains)

Boyd does not offer us value as a downhill skier; he needs to get back to the defensive side of his game being paramount over everything else like it used to be. He needs to cop that there are at least 3 better midfielders than him (at this stage, I'd even feel more secure in Stevens being an offensive weapon than Boyd; at least he works hard both ways), and get back to what made him so good in the firs place; killing the oppositions best player and causing some sort of positive gain the other way. We've all been saying it for at least three years, but at this stage his refusal to do so could cost him his place in the side, instead of being really super annoying.

This is a very good post. The difficulty for mine is if Boyd Cross Gia are unloaded, you may have a Melbourne scenario with its senior players.

[MrMahatma]

Boyd is an oxymoron, he demands the highest of standards but fails to deliver with his own on the field. Boyd is an excellent clubman and a great leader off the field. He is well respected and anyone who has met him knows him to have the right balance of conviction, discipline and humility. Not all captains are in their clubs best three players and Boyd is our example of that, but he is a good player and could become a very good player again if he does as others here have suggested and relearns the craft that 'once' made him a very good player. His ability to win a lot of ball and negate his direct opponent is a rare gift, but Boyd had this in spades and it was the driver that lifted him up to one of the top 10 mids (perhaps even one of the best five mids) in the game at one stage.

He needs to either demand of the coaches that he is allowed to once again be super- accountable or he needs to expect this of himself. There are too many players in our team now who are as good as or better at doing the role that he is in the team to do.
Think you're over exaggerating how good he was at his peak. Has always been a battler for mine.

I think he loses the C next year and gets played on form. We won't drop our captain but we can't carry him. Give the C to Murph even for 1 season if he only has 1 more in him.

[jeemak]

Agree with Happy Days assessment that he needs to go back to being a more defensively minded midfielder, in that if he did so he'd be more inclined to hassle players out of clean possession and have to give it off by hand as a result of that.

As a ball winner, he isn't really placed under pressure for the reason that he butchers it. If he has to get it second hand after prizing it off an opponent he'll immediately have to dish it off to a better placed player due to the pressure he'll be under.

Still easily best 22, and definitely needs a run more to get back into the swing of things but long term, he needs to change his game.

[soupman]

Why do you think his use of the footy has declined really badly and how can it be improved

What do you think Eastdog?

I think his use of the footy hasnt declined really badly, he's never been a great user. However it was probably hidden a bit more in the past when he could pass to Johnson and Hall up forward, or a firing Cooney or Gilbee up the ground. As the side has become less experienced Boyd has taken on more responsibility himself to do the ambitious, and this coupled with inferior options to pass it to has exposed his weaknesses.

How can it be improved? He has to admit there is a problem, and take a leaf out of the book of Daniel Cross and play within his limitations.




As a ball winner, he isn't really placed under pressure for the reason that he butchers it. If he has to get it second hand after prizing it off an opponent he'll immediately have to dish it off to a better placed player due to the pressure he'll be under.

Still easily best 22, and definitely needs a run more to get back into the swing of things but long term, he needs to change his game.

Not sure he is. He is clearly behind Griffen and Liberatore in the midfield, and you could argue he is on par with the output of Smith, Macrae, Stevens and Lower on that second rung. I would argue that the performances of Cross were no worse than Boyd's, and seeing as Cross is no longer clearly in our best 22 then Boyd cannot be far off.

[1eyedog]

Think you're over exaggerating how good he was at his peak. Has always been a battler for mine.

I think he loses the C next year and gets played on form. We won't drop our captain but we can't carry him. Give the C to Murph even for 1 season if he only has 1 more in him.

My opinion is in line with that of many learned football watchers at the time, when he was a very good player. I think the 2009 AA selection confirms this given the competition he was up against.

[bornadog]

Not sure he is. He is clearly behind Griffen and Liberatore in the midfield, and you could argue he is on par with the output of Smith, Macrae, Stevens and Lower on that second rung. I would argue that the performances of Cross were no worse than Boyd's, and seeing as Cross is no longer clearly in our best 22 then Boyd cannot be far off.

He is still in the best 22, but has been rusty this year with an interrupted season. His 38 disposals versus the Saints was outstanding including 7 tackles as was his game against Geelong with 29 disposals and 6 tackles.

He runs all day and gets lots of the ball. He has run out of puff a few times this season, but that has been due to his injuries holding him back. Make no mistake, Boyd gives the club 120%.

[Murphy'sLore]

Did Boyd actually play in any of the games we've won this year?

[bornadog]

Did Boyd actually play in any of the games we've won this year?

see my post above. Yes against the Saints.

[Ghost Dog]

He is still in the best 22, but has been rusty this year with an interrupted season. His 38 disposals versus the Saints was outstanding including 7 tackles as was his game against Geelong with 29 disposals and 6 tackles.

He runs all day and gets lots of the ball. He has run out of puff a few times this season, but that has been due to his injuries holding him back. Make no mistake, Boyd gives the club 120%.

That's the problem. He needs to do less IMO. Some of his decisions are just awful by foot. If you don't have pinpoint accuracy, don't try it. It really really annoys me that both Murph and the coach talked about the failings of younger players as the cause of Sunday's woes. I think a few senior players coughed it up more than the juniors.

[LostDoggy]

That's the problem. He needs to do less IMO. Some of his decisions are just awful by foot. If you don't have pinpoint accuracy, don't try it. It really really annoys me that both Murph and the coach talked about the failings of younger players as the cause of Sunday's woes. I think a few senior players coughed it up more than the juniors.

The younger players stop running, which gives the opposition a lot of space and means we don't have many options to kick to, which makes it a lot harder to find a target. Kicking errors from senior players is a smaller problem in comparison, a lot of the errors will go away as the young players are able to run harder for longer and create options for the ball carrier to kick to all game instead of having periods of the game where there is little run.

Yeah Boyd turns the ball over a bit, but lets not forget the reason he gets the ball more than our other players is because he's one of the ones who is working to create an option for his team mates to give the ball to.

[Ghost Dog]

I could accept that if I hadn't seen the replays and seen lots of errors from the captain.
Needed to be goal side, but wasn't - allowing it to go over the line.
Was miles away from Swan during key stoppages.
Can accept that his calf might be making it harder for him to run. But his disposal to a free player, while not being under huge pressure - well this happened more than a few times didn't it? It's his kicking on the run that lets him down.
On the other hand, fatigue may be an issue with his kicking. Is not being rotated enough?

[kruder]

His defensive game is almost non-existent too, that's ok if he offers plenty going our way, but he has no hurt factor.

In the second quarter, the ball was kicked long into the pies forward line and Boyd and his opponent Dwyer were just off the contest and would you believe he wasn't goal side of him!

I'm guessing you know what happened next. After the goal he gave the defenders a spray. Go Figure! Boyd and Coons were disgraceful on the weekend, we allow our senior players get away with murder. We will continue to rot if we don't play two way football and it starts from the top!

[LostDoggy]

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/2013-06-19/notsureask-luke-darcy-catches-up-with-boydy

Darcy asks Boyd where the club is at.

[bulldogtragic]

Bump. How has another week made you see things.

[GVGjr]

Has he been hampered by the late start to the season or has he lost a level? I suspect it's the latter.

[Rance Fan]

He shut down Cotchin!
Just dont let him kick the ball!

[chef]

Pretty much kept Cotchin out of the game but his disposal and decision making really sucks.

[kruder]

Cotchin has a sore knee hence why spending time in forward line, Boyd simply stood next to him at the clearances.

[Sedat]

Where's he at? The crossroads

[Ghost Dog]

Just handball it mate. All the way down the ground if you want! Nice long handballs. No worries!

[lemmon]

You can't convince me he adds more to this side than Wallis does at present

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Has he been hampered by the late start to the season or has he lost a level? I suspect it's the latter.

I think that it's a bit of both. Moreover, I think that as our overall midfield strength has declined in the past 2-3 years he has attempted to take on a role that doesn't suit his limited skill set.

I always thought Boyd was best when he played the blue collar room, when we had more class in our engine room. This allowed him to focus on negating the opposition's better players and also concentrate on giving what ball he did win to those outside of him with better skills.


The biggest worry is even under little or no pressure Boyd is killing us with turnovers, and to make matters worse he doesn't appear to set the example for our mids in consistently working hard both ways.

Right now we have outside of Griffen a midfield that is very limited in skills. Even most of our young mids in Libba, Stevens, Wallis, Smith have no real ability to punish an opposition with their disposal. I don't know how Boyd can remain as captain in 2014, given we really need our skipper to set an example for our very young list.

[LostDoggy]

My wife came up with such a simple question. When was the last time he had an influence on a game?
I think the answer is there.

[bulldogtragic]

You can't convince me he adds more to this side than Wallis does at present
Makes a small army of us. What is going through the coache's head???

[Hotdog60]

I think I discovered our problem don't let Boyd take the toss, he hardly ever wins it. I think it maybe one this year and last year was just as bad. I think the games we have one this year are the games we have won the toss.:)

[The Underdog]

My wife came up with such a simple question. When was the last time he had an influence on a game?
I think the answer is there.

To be fair I thought the St Kildare game was clearly his best one of the year and he was influential in us winning. Can't say I've enjoyed much of his other work this year though

[SonofScray]

Cross in, Boyd out.

[G-Mo77]

Lot of venom on Boyd here tonight and probably rightfully so, his disposal was deplorable at times. BUT I saw a good sign with his role on Cotchin tonight. He did a great job at negating him and winning his own ball, we're starting to get somewhere. Now what needs to happen is to find someone who is a better user by foot by hand. They talked about Boyd at length on 3AW after the game and noted Macrae with 27 disposals but 19 by hand. Boyd's got to find a way to get guys like this the ball, basically kick less and look to deliver to a better option.

[Remi Moses]

If they're going to play Boyd in the negating mid role, where does this leave Lower?
How many defensive mids can you have?

[G-Mo77]

If they're going to play Boyd in the negating mid role, where does this leave Lower?
How many defensive mids can you have?

Honestly I think we can do away with one. Lower was running with Houli tonight, enough said. I had Hrovat as my out for next week but it could just as easily be Lower.

[SonofScray]

Lot of venom on Boyd here tonight and probably rightfully so, his disposal was deplorable at times. BUT I saw a good sign with his role on Cotchin tonight. He did a great job at negating him and winning his own ball, we're starting to get somewhere. Now what needs to happen is to find someone who is a better user by foot by hand. They talked about Boyd at length on 3AW after the game and noted Macrae with 27 disposals but 19 by hand. Boyd's got to find a way to get guys like this the ball, basically kick less and look to deliver to a better option.

I thought that was his one reprieve. Boyd needs to adapt to that sort of role quick smart. He is a limited footballer with the footy, has got by on the back of elite fitness. As that strength fades he'll need to find something else. Get nasty and close down better players. A bit like Libba had to under Wallace.

I don't think he can do it.

[LostDoggy]

My wife came up with such a simple question. When was the last time he had an influence on a game?
I think the answer is there.

He had 3 direct assists, clearly the most on the ground. 9 tackles by far the most on the ground, easily the hardest worker out there other than Griff and destroyed Cotchin at multiple contests, making him look incredibly soft.
Copping a lot of hate for his clangers, but he is doing a lot of other things right.

[Sedat]

Cotchin shouldn't even be playing - he's nowhere near 100% fitness, so I don't hold much weight to Boyd's holding job on him. To be honest, Cotchin was played as a dummy midfielder by Hardwick, which allowed the likes of Foley, Grigg, Houli and Conca to run riot forward of the centre in acres of space (often preceded by a Boyd clanger that had our players out of position). BMac was completely and utterly out-coached tonight.

What Boyd did with the ball in his control was counter-productive to the team. He butchered multiple uncontested kicks when clear and in space, and at other times he did the Nick Maxwell patented "kick it without looking and make it someone else's problem". He doesn't impact games in any positive capacity for the team - it is a major issue for the club that will need to be addressed in the off-season. Losing the captaincy should be an absolute given, and so should a rapid transformation to his game.

[LostDoggy]

The hate for him seems a bit pandemic, he gets the most score involvements and tackles on the team and people say he had no impact. I give up.

[comrade]

The hate for him seems a bit pandemic, he gets the most score involvements and tackles on the team and people say he had no impact. I give up.

Good tackling numbers, for sure, but some of his missed tackles were horrid - highlighted by a hobbled Cotchin shrugging him off in the last quarter and kicking a goal.

He gets his hand on the ball so his score involvements will always be high. What that stat doesn't tell you are his score involvements for the opposition. He turned the ball over multiple times (6 direct clangers and many more neutral disposals that didn't favour a teammate) which led to our guys being out positioned and Richmond scoring.

Stats only tell one side of the story. He was terrible for much of the night and needs to be held accountable.

[Remi Moses]

The hate for him seems a bit pandemic, he gets the most score involvements and tackles on the team and people say he had no impact. I give up.

Bit strong the term " Hate" isn't it?
People are allowed to critique the captain of our club .
Boyd's mastered the one step no longer my problem bomb !!
Not good enough

[Ghost Dog]

The hate for him seems a bit pandemic, he gets the most score involvements and tackles on the team and people say he had no impact. I give up.

No hate, but he's the captain. There's a sense of urgency to have somebody who embodies where we are going.
If he cannot be used as an example for these young players, then it hurts us now and in the future. I don't care if we lose. As long as we are developing. We risk a sinking of morale and can't afford it.

[The Pie Man]

Lot of venom on Boyd here tonight and probably rightfully so, his disposal was deplorable at times. BUT I saw a good sign with his role on Cotchin tonight. He did a great job at negating him and winning his own ball, we're starting to get somewhere. Now what needs to happen is to find someone who is a better user by foot by hand. They talked about Boyd at length on 3AW after the game and noted Macrae with 27 disposals but 19 by hand. Boyd's got to find a way to get guys like this the ball, basically kick less and look to deliver to a better option.

So in essence, he should become Daniel Cross? (ie 7K 19HB a game)

He shouldn't kick unless it's for goal from 45+ so I agree

[ratsmac]

Cotchin shouldn't even be playing - he's nowhere near 100% fitness, so I don't hold much weight to Boyd's holding job on him. To be honest, Cotchin was played as a dummy midfielder by Hardwick, which allowed the likes of Foley, Grigg, Houli and Conca to run riot forward of the centre in acres of space (often preceded by a Boyd clanger that had our players out of position). BMac was completely and utterly out-coached tonight.

What Boyd did with the ball in his control was counter-productive to the team. He butchered multiple uncontested kicks when clear and in space, and at other times he did the Nick Maxwell patented "kick it without looking and make it someone else's problem". He doesn't impact games in any positive capacity for the team - it is a major issue for the club that will need to be addressed in the off-season. Losing the captaincy should be an absolute given, and so should a rapid transformation to his game.

Great post Sedat!

I thought last night was indeed a game where Bmac had his colours lowered. He didn't make any notable changes when we were still in touch and Richmond started to kick away. Their spread was killing us. We are obviously still very raw in a lot of areas across the ground, but it would be nice to see the coach try something different.

As for Boyd, DON'T KICK THE BALL!!!! Scott Wynd was an ordinary kick so he would handball. Daniel Cross can't kick so he handballs. Good players know their limitations. Surely the coaches have addressed this with him. He seems to call for the ball when he is in a worse position than who has the ball too. His decision making has been questionable for a while as well. If he weren't the captain I think he could be given a bit more slack, but he has been costing us too many goals. To whom much is given, much is required. Sorry Matthew, not good enough. Apart from his kicking short falls, his overall game agianst Richmond was pretty good. He definitely has to tweak his game for the better of the team.

[bulldogtragic]

Great post Sedat!

I thought last night was indeed a game where Bmac had his colours lowered. He didn't make any notable changes when we were still in touch and Richmond started to kick away. Their spread was killing us. We are obviously still very raw in a lot of areas across the ground, but it would be nice to see the coach try something different.

As for Boyd, DON'T KICK THE BALL!!!! Scott Wynd was an ordinary kick so he would handball. Daniel Cross can't kick so he handballs. Good players know their limitations. Surely the coaches have addressed this with him. He seems to call for the ball when he is in a worse position than who has the ball too. His decision making has been questionable for a while as well. If he weren't the captain I think he could be given a bit more slack, but he has been costing us too many goals. To whom much is given, much is required. Sorry Matthew, not good enough. Apart from his kicking short falls, his overall game agianst Richmond was pretty good. He definitely has to tweak his game for the better of the team.
I think BMac has been out coached most of is year. His tactics and strategies don't seem to be working and he has relegated our best forward to being sub and playing him when the game is iced. How he gets away with under performing is astonishing.

[Ghost Dog]

Funny about perceptions. I used to thump the couch in frustration with Corssy's kicking, but I'm really relaxed now he has it in hand. really improved in that area, and cares for the ball, caresses it even.
Boyd is too worried about what is happening down field to really pay attention to his action and care about that ball.

[lemmon]

Two big ones stood out for me last night, one going into the F50 in the last quarter, no pressure, players hitting up, time and space and he puts it on a Richmond players chest. We bemoan Jones and the like not kicking easy goals well that's why.

The second was running out of defence, spears a pass right to a Tiger on the back flank, again under no pressure. Its turned around, Richmond goal. A goal that goes against Roughy or Talia or whoever the opponent was.

I don't care if he wins 35 touches. The further outside he has become the worse his disposal has become. He isn't best 22 for mine, whether that means he goes at the end of the year or is dropped now...I don't know

[LostDoggy]

One gripe with Boyd last night. Stringer marked late in the game, slight angle, 20 out. Boyd runs into goal while being closely tailed, taking Stringers' focus off goal. His influence and position influenced Stringers' kick to him ?

I'd have rathered Stringer go back and kick for goal, end up with 3, even if he missed instead of Boyd getting a cheap one in a game that was long over.

[Ghost Dog]

Two big ones stood out for me last night, one going into the F50 in the last quarter, no pressure, players hitting up, time and space and he puts it on a Richmond players chest. We bemoan Jones and the like not kicking easy goals well that's why.

The second was running out of defence, spears a pass right to a Tiger on the back flank, again under no pressure. Its turned around, Richmond goal. A goal that goes against Roughy or Talia or whoever the opponent was.

I don't care if he wins 35 touches. The further outside he has become the worse his disposal has become. He isn't best 22 for mine, whether that means he goes at the end of the year or is dropped now...I don't know

I rate Addison above the captain at the moment.

[bornadog]

How about focusing on the positives and not the negatives, (which is beyond many people.)

34 disposals at 76.5% disposal efficiency. Yes he butchered the ball a few times, but then I can point to many others as well. (Talia, Macrae, Griffen, to name a few). Boyd followed Cotchin around last night and kept him to 17 disposals, he tackled him hard (9 tackles) and basically kept him quiet till junk time in the last. Sedat can point to the negatives and say Cotchin is injured, or not in form, but that fact is he was out there playing and is considered an A grade player, and Boyd beat him.

Open your eyes, we didn't lose last night due to Boyd.

[LostDoggy]

Two big ones stood out for me last night, one going into the F50 in the last quarter, no pressure, players hitting up, time and space and he puts it on a Richmond players chest. We bemoan Jones and the like not kicking easy goals well that's why.

The second was running out of defence, spears a pass right to a Tiger on the back flank, again under no pressure. Its turned around, Richmond goal. A goal that goes against Roughy or Talia or whoever the opponent was.

I don't care if he wins 35 touches. The further outside he has become the worse his disposal has become. He isn't best 22 for mine, whether that means he goes at the end of the year or is dropped now...I don't know

We can't get easy goals from Jones and the like if they aren't creating an option anyway. Can only look to next year when Stringer and Jones can build their tanks. A lot of Boyd's disposals were passes to Murph and Griff that set up scores. He set up 3 himself.

I wasn't a fan of the goal he kicked, that's the type of front running goal that Dane Swan gets every week that just disgusts me.

[Go_Dogs]

How about focusing on the positives and not the negatives, (which is beyond many people.)

34 disposals at 76.5% disposal efficiency. Yes he butchered the ball a few times, but then I can point to many others as well. (Talia, Macrae, Griffen, to name a few).

I haven't watched yet but Boyd had about 10% of our possessions last night and about 20% of our clangers. The efficiency is not always indicative of performance and to me, that he had 7 clangers isn't good enough, it seems there were some real howlers in the bunch that directly resulted in goals going the other way.

I look forward to seeing how he went on Cotchin, based on the numbers he had a much better defensive game than last week which is a positive.

[bornadog]

I haven't watched yet but Boyd had about 10% of our possessions last night and about 20% of our clangers. The efficiency is not always indicative of performance and to me, that he had 7 clangers isn't good enough, it seems there were some real howlers in the bunch that directly resulted in goals going the other way.

I look forward to seeing how he went on Cotchin, based on the numbers he had a much better defensive game than last week which is a positive.

Yes he had three more clangers than Griffen who also accumulated a lot of the ball and was ineffectual and non damaging. Boyd had two horrific ones resulting in goals for them, but so did others as well but they are not mentioned and not focused on. As I said, posters focus on negatives, especially after a loss.

[bulldogtragic]

Yes he had three more clangers than Griffen who also accumulated a lot of the ball and was ineffectual and non damaging. Boyd had two horrific ones resulting in goals for them, but so did others as well but they are not mentioned and not focused on. As I said, posters focus on negatives, especially after a loss.
How many other football butchering, turnover merchant one way runners do we have that are captain and shining example to the kids.

Win or lose, we are just calling a spade a spade. If he gets better, I'm sure we will eat our words.

[bornadog]

How many other football butchering, turnover merchant one way runners do we have that are captain and shining example to the kids.

Win or lose, we are just calling a spade a spade. If he gets better, I'm sure we will eat our words.

Negative post. He is not the only one.

[bulldogtragic]

Negative post. He is not the only one.
Most criticism is generally perceived as negative. But we can not ignore it. That he has other poor performers with him does not excuse his responsibility and contribution to our performances.

[bornadog]

Most criticism is generally perceived as negative. But we can not ignore it. That he has other poor performers with him does not excuse his responsibility and contribution to our performances.

What I am saying he did not perform as badly as out supporters think, they only focus on the negatives as you are and not the positive things he did last night.

[LostDoggy]

Most criticism is generally perceived as negative. But we can not ignore it. That he has other poor performers with him does not excuse his responsibility and contribution to our performances.

People want him to be dropped. It's pretty ridiculous. He just needs to build on this game by continuing to work hard both ways which is something he has struggled with in a couple of games when he has been underdone. He obviously needs to try to cut the shanks out of his game. But facts are facts, he was the biggest contributor to the scoreboard last night.

[Ghost Dog]

People want him to be dropped. It's pretty ridiculous. He just needs to build on this game by continuing to work hard both ways which is something he has struggled with in a couple of games when he has been underdone. He obviously needs to try to cut the shanks out of his game. But facts are facts, he was the biggest contributor to the scoreboard last night.

Just to clarify, out of ten, how would you rate his game last night.

[boydogs]

One gripe with Boyd last night. Stringer marked late in the game, slight angle, 20 out. Boyd runs into goal while being closely tailed, taking Stringers' focus off goal. His influence and position influenced Stringers' kick to him ?

I'd have rathered Stringer go back and kick for goal, end up with 3, even if he missed instead of Boyd getting a cheap one in a game that was long over.

I laughed at this one :D

You realise Boyd kicked the goal? What would you be saying if Stringer missed it, that Boyd should have kept running for the handball over the top?

[LostDoggy]

Did you read the second paragraph? I said I wouldn't have cared if Stringer missed it. For his confidence and development it would have been better if Stringer went back and kicked it.

Doubt you read the post and if you did you missed the context totally.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I think Boyds time is coming quickly, It looks likes teams are sitting off him allowing him to kick knowing its almost going to be a turn over, gets plenty of it but is hurting no one this year. It allows the opposition to put more focus into Libba, Dal and Griff

[Sedat]

People want him to be dropped. It's pretty ridiculous. He just needs to build on this game by continuing to work hard both ways which is something he has struggled with in a couple of games when he has been underdone. He obviously needs to try to cut the shanks out of his game. But facts are facts, he was the biggest contributor to the scoreboard last night.
Agree that the call to drop him is ridiculous - he's our captain FFS. However if you think Boydy has been running one way just this season you are kidding. Apart from a sensational lock-down job on Judd in 2011, he's barely put in any meaningful defensive work since about 2005.

The calls earlier on this thread comparing Griffen's disposal efficiency to Boyd's are ridiculous as well. Griff repeatedly runs like a madman to help out his under siege defenders and made a number of valuable defensive contributions in that area of the ground. Something that Boyd (and Libba and Coons as well to be fair) should take note of.

[LostDoggy]

Negative post. He is not the only one.

I'll bite, Which other AFL captain turns the ball over like Boyd?

[LostDoggy]

I'll bite, Which other AFL captain turns the ball over like Boyd?

Cotchin is the obvious one. Trengove but not fair on him because of the side he plays for.
Nick Riewoldt's goalkicking is the forward equivalent of Boyd turning it over.



Agree that the call to drop him is ridiculous - he's our captain FFS. However if you think Boydy has been running one way just this season you are kidding. Apart from a sensational lock-down job on Judd in 2011, he's barely put in any meaningful defensive work since about 2005.

The calls earlier on this thread comparing Griffen's disposal efficiency to Boyd's are ridiculous as well. Griff repeatedly runs like a madman to help out his under siege defenders and made a number of valuable defensive contributions in that area of the ground. Something that Boyd (and Libba and Coons as well to be fair) should take note of.

I disagree, a lot of times Boyd helps out defence and has high tackle numbers, he's just been down in these areas this season apart from a couple of games.

[LostDoggy]

Just to clarify, out of ten, how would you rate his game last night.

6-7 out of 10. Turnovers were bad but not as bad as Talia's cross goal gifts. Too many of them though.
Defensive work excellent. One of few who was consistently giving his team mates an option yet again. Comfortably set up the majority of our forward thrusts so overall one of our better players.

[LostDoggy]

6-7 out of 10. Turnovers were bad but not as bad as Talia's cross goal gifts. Too many of them though.
Defensive work excellent. One of few who was consistently giving his team mates an option yet again. Comfortably set up the majority of our forward thrusts so overall one of our better players.

How many games has Talia played and how many to Boyd? Plus, Talia isn't the damn Captain!

[Ghost Dog]

6-7 out of 10. Turnovers were bad but not as bad as Talia's cross goal gifts. Too many of them though.
Defensive work excellent. One of few who was consistently giving his team mates an option yet again. Comfortably set up the majority of our forward thrusts so overall one of our better players.

Ok. Well, that's one view. I'm not sure of the logic of comparing a 6 game player to a 200+ game player. Anything good, he undid by gifting them possession. A captain nonetheless. The turnovers were at key points in the game.

[LostDoggy]

Ok. Well, that's one view. I'm not sure of the logic of comparing a 6 game player to a 200+ game player. Anything good, he undid by gifting them possession. A captain nonetheless. The turnovers were at key points in the game.

I'm mostly defending against the idea that he should be dropped and/or sacked not that he didn't let the team down with his turnovers.
Our young players are still light years off in their work rate, Boyd's one of the few they can look up to in that regard.
Griff's gonna captain the club next year anyway based on what Macca's been saying.

[boydogs]

Did you read the second paragraph? I said I wouldn't have cared if Stringer missed it. For his confidence and development it would have been better if Stringer went back and kicked it.

Doubt you read the post and if you did you missed the context totally.

I just reckon Matty Boyd is pushing shit up hill trying to please you if you're criticising him for kicking a goal. There were a lot of things he did wrong last night, but that wasn't one of them.

[Ghost Dog]

I'm mostly defending against the idea that he should be dropped and/or sacked not that he didn't let the team down with his turnovers.
Our young players are still light years off in their work rate, Boyd's one of the few they can look up to in that regard.
Griff's gonna captain the club next year anyway based on what Macca's been saying.

His work rate certainly doesn't need defending. Elite. It's just his Kamakazi ethic carries over into his kicking.For most of his career, he's been able to get the job done, so back him in to return to form.

[lemmon]

I'm mostly defending against the idea that he should be dropped and/or sacked not that he didn't let the team down with his turnovers.
Our young players are still light years off in their work rate, Boyd's one of the few they can look up to in that regard.
Griff's gonna captain the club next year anyway based on what Macca's been saying.

You honestly say Boyd runs both ways? Last night aside when he had a direct matchup for most of the game, I have sat there watching him so many times and he doesn't work hard enough defensively. He is up there with Cooney in the not willing to grab a man stakes. I'm only picking out Boyd here because you identify it as a strength when it simply isn't true, its a blight across most of our midfield. Need to take a page out of the Ross Lyon defensive book.

[BulldogBelle]

It should have been perfectly obvious after the NAB Cup games, (where in one it appeared as though Boyd was playing for the opposition in one game, such were the extent of his turnovers), and his form last year that Boyd had a terrible problem with turnovers.

In all but one game this year Boyd's turnovers have been too costly.

The worrying thing is that our coach seems to have done nothing about it. I want our coach to be proactive or at least reactive but not inactive like our previous coach. He finally did something about Cross, but is slow, slow, slow on moving on Boyd.

It is not totally Boyd's fault, you must look at the coach and ask - "well, what are you going to do about it?"

Why does it seem as though the coach has done nothing?

[BulldogBelle]

I just reckon Matty Boyd is pushing shit up hill trying to please you if you're criticising him for kicking a goal. There were a lot of things he did wrong last night, but that wasn't one of them.

Yes it was, he shouldn't have called for the ball then. That was dumb.

[LostDoggy]

You honestly say Boyd runs both ways? Last night aside when he had a direct matchup for most of the game, I have sat there watching him so many times and he doesn't work hard enough defensively. He is up there with Cooney in the not willing to grab a man stakes. I'm only picking out Boyd here because you identify it as a strength when it simply isn't true, its a blight across most of our midfield. Need to take a page out of the Ross Lyon defensive book.

Based on this year I agree, I haven't observed the same in the past though. At worst he's been one of our better tacklers for years, and has often been pushing back and helping out the defence, I definitely agree that he has let opposition midfielders off the chain too much. I'm very much for the idea of utilizing Boyd as a tagger and getting lower and/or Picken out of the side for the young guys.

[lemmon]

Based on this year I agree, I haven't observed the same in the past though. At worst he's been one of our better tacklers for years, and has often been pushing back and helping out the defence, I definitely agree that he has let opposition midfielders off the chain too much. I'm very much for the idea of utilizing Boyd as a tagger and getting lower and/or Picken out of the side for the young guys.

It hasn't just been this year, was it the 2008 or 2009 final when he was seemingly set for Gary Ablett but decided to run his own way and we were destroyed. The difference between Griff and Boyd is working back in defense is stark, Griff is great at it, its why he wins so much footy back there.

If we are replacing a tagger for Boyd it would have to be Lower...and I don't see what he has done wrong though.

[LostDoggy]

It hasn't just been this year, was it the 2008 or 2009 final when he was seemingly set for Gary Ablett but decided to run his own way and we were destroyed. The difference between Griff and Boyd is working back in defense is stark, Griff is great at it, its why he wins so much footy back there.

If we are replacing a tagger for Boyd it would have to be Lower...and I don't see what he has done wrong though.

Probably 2008.
In 2009 Boyd was getting tagged a lot himself.
Boyd is a liability but Lower is good?
Lower turns it over just the same, Pendles destroyed him when lower was supposed to be applying a hard tag and he mostly played on Houli last night, and when not tagging houli just looked lost out there playing on guys like jake king. Hardly got near the ball while his opponents racked it up.

I don't buy that Boyd doesn't help out the defence, he gets a lot of ball in the defensive half himself. Last night I saw him trying to help out the key defenders in the air at times too, cross style and he's one of the few players along with Griff who always makes an option for our kick outs, which is a big problem we have.

[Sedat]

It hasn't just been this year, was it the 2008 or 2009 final when he was seemingly set for Gary Ablett but decided to run his own way and we were destroyed. The difference between Griff and Boyd is working back in defense is stark, Griff is great at it, its why he wins so much footy back there.
Dane Swan has absolutely torched Boyd in finals as well, not to mention Lenny Hayes. There's been some fictional re-writing of history in this thread in relation to Boyd's defensive work ethic - he has been as one-way a midfielder in the last few seasons as any going around.

[Sedat]

Lower turns it over just the same, Pendles destroyed him when lower was supposed to be applying a hard tag and he mostly played on Houli last night, and when not tagging houli just looked lost out there playing on guys like jake king. Hardly got near the ball while his opponents racked it up.
Whilst I disagree with your Boyd summations, I agree with you
wholeheartedly on Lower. He's had a good season but has dropped off in recent weeks, with last night's performance on Houli bordering on dreadful. He goes well before Boyd does, and against Melbourne there's no room for the two of them in defensive midfield jobs.

[LostDoggy]

I fully agree that Boyd hasn't been accountable for an opponent for years, but he has still worked hard to chase and tackle and work back to help the defence, which are the main factors I consider in running both ways.

Funny you mention Swan, who is one of the biggest front runners you'll ever see.

[lemmon]

Probably 2008.
In 2009 Boyd was getting tagged a lot himself.
Boyd is a liability but Lower is good?
Lower turns it over just the same, Pendles destroyed him when lower was supposed to be applying a hard tag and he mostly played on Houli last night, and when not tagging houli just looked lost out there playing on guys like jake king. Hardly got near the ball while his opponents racked it up.

His disposal isn't as bad as Boyds, he's by no means a good kick but he doesn't produce as many outright clangers Boyd does. And you are willfully ignoring Lowers jobs on Rich, Mundy, Dangerfield, Selwood and Swallow to name a few. Houli was always going to be too quick for Lower, he should have been on Martin or Cotchin. You are kidding if you think Lower has had a bad year and deserves to be dropped as a stopper.

[LostDoggy]

His disposal isn't as bad as Boyds, he's by no means a good kick but he doesn't produce as many outright clangers Boyd does. And you are willfully ignoring Lowers jobs on Rich, Mundy, Dangerfield, Selwood and Swallow to name a few. Houli was always going to be too quick for Lower, he should have been on Martin or Cotchin. You are kidding if you think Lower has had a bad year and deserves to be dropped as a stopper.

I think he's had a bad couple of weeks which have come at a bad time for him.
I've been a fan but like Cross I think he will be an unlucky player.

On the running both ways thing. Did you know that Griffen has never laid more tackles or had more rebounds than boyd in a season? Griffen has been inspirational this season, but to say Boyd is miles behind him in defensive work is just plain wrong.

[lemmon]

I think he's had a bad couple of weeks which have come at a bad time for him.
I've been a fan but like Cross I think he will be an unlucky player.

On the running both ways thing. Did you know that Griffen has never laid more tackles or had more rebounds than boyd in a season? Griffen has been inspirational this season, but to say Boyd is miles behind him in defensive work is just plain wrong.

And Dane Swan averages more rebound 50's than both of them...how do you explain that after calling him the one of the biggest front runners in the game? Those stats are crap

[LostDoggy]

And Dane Swan averages more rebound 50's than both of them...how do you explain that after calling him the one of the biggest front runners in the game? Those stats are crap

Where'd you pull that from?
Griffen and Boyd are both way ahead of Swan in tackling and Boyd is way ahead of Swan in rebounds

[lemmon]

Where'd you pull that from?
Griffen and Boyd are both way ahead of Swan in tackling and Boyd is way ahead of Swan in rebounds

Misread the tackle stats but across their careers Swan averages 2.2 rebound 50's per game, Boyd 2.11, Griff 1.87

Stats from here: http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/players.html

I don't believe the majority of these stats mean anything. This is going nowhere and boring everyone so I'm calling a truce, agree to disagree.

[LostDoggy]

Yeah sorry Swan was better earlier in his career. Stats can lie, but there's plenty you can learn from them if you look closely enough.
Remember I wasn't trying to say that Boyd works harder both ways than Griffen, just that they aren't miles apart as you suggested.
Agree to disagree anyway.

[bulldogtragic]

I think he could do with some media pressure. Let him prove everybody wrong.

[The Doctor]

Boyd's time as skipper is up at the end of the year in my view. We may keep him as a player for another year but not as captain.

I think the Gia hook up on foxtel highlighted the fact that he was not the natural leader of the club. He has been a terrific servant but it is time for new leadership blood.

[LostDoggy]

Agree that the call to drop him is ridiculous - he's our captain FFS. However if you think Boydy has been running one way just this season you are kidding. Apart from a sensational lock-down job on Judd in 2011, he's barely put in any meaningful defensive work since about 2005.

The calls earlier on this thread comparing Griffen's disposal efficiency to Boyd's are ridiculous as well. Griff repeatedly runs like a madman to help out his under siege defenders and made a number of valuable defensive contributions in that area of the ground. Something that Boyd (and Libba and Coons as well to be fair) should take note of.

Nobody should be immune from the tap, if Macca is going to practice what he preaches.


Cotchin is the obvious one. Trengove but not fair on him because of the side he plays for.
Nick Riewoldt's goalkicking is the forward equivalent of Boyd turning it over.




I disagree, a lot of times Boyd helps out defence and has high tackle numbers, he's just been down in these areas this season apart from a couple of games.

I hate his diving, but Roo is a champion. He misses so many because he has utterly destroyed himself running 800 meters for the ball.


I think he could do with some media pressure. Let him prove everybody wrong.

Absolutely. Set the standard, and let the media drive it home.

[bornadog]

Boyd's time as skipper is up at the end of the year in my view. We may keep him as a player for another year but not as captain.

I think the Gia hook up on foxtel highlighted the fact that he was not the natural leader of the club. He has been a terrific servant but it is time for new leadership blood.

We need someone around the mid to high 20's who can captain the team, unfortunately we don't have many players in that bracket. I agree next year should be Boyd's last and this year last as captain.

[Mantis]

We need someone around the mid to high 20's who can captain the team, unfortunately we don't have many players in that bracket.

Griffen should be captain next year.. He is our best player & is leading by example.

[mighty_west]

Nothing more frustrating than your captain continually causing turnovers, and quite a few of them under little pressure, whilst he did a good job on Cotchin on the weekend, he just lets himself down time after time, not a great trait for your players especially the younger ones to look up to imo.

Griffen to step up next year for mine, dominant on field and seems very popular off.

[Maddog37]

Boyd needs to tag.

[azabob]

Boyd needs to tag.

What do Picken and Lower do?

[Maddog37]

Play VFL.

[w3design]

If Boyd again becomes tagger then it does force Picken and Lower out of the side. Our inability to quickly and accurately move the ball by foot and/or spread and run in waves and use the offensive hand ball is killing us and our forward line. We cannot exert any scoreboard pressure at all presently with the way we move the ball.

[bornadog]

If Boyd again becomes tagger then it does force Picken and Lower out of the side. Our inability to quickly and accurately move the ball by foot and/or spread and run in waves and use the offensive hand ball is killing us and our forward line. We cannot exert any scoreboard pressure at all presently with the way we move the ball.

I think that is the fault of the backline. I do not like Cooney in the backline, I don't know what the coach is thinking here.

[Remi Moses]

Stan Alves summed it up best when he said we have to many players who swarm on a contest.
Players have to be coached to stay away .
I think everyone knows this by now.

[jeemak]

Stan Alves summed it up best when he said we have to many players who swarm on a contest.
Players have to be coached to stay away .
I think everyone knows this by now.

This isn't a problem that is new to Bmac and the current regime. During our years of being final four competitive it was often a huge gripe of mine that players didn't communicate to leave "two out" and "two in" within a contested situation around the ground, and nothing's changed in that area.

It's almost as if we've over the years drafted a bunch of stupid footballers in that area, or not taught them sufficiently to position properly in situations where some players need to get on the ball, and others need to hang back. It's bloody frustrating.

Matthew Boyd cannot be a tagger. He's not quick enough, and his game has gone too far towards being an accumulator. I do think he can change his game moderately to be more defensively minded, and can learn to use the ball by hand more than foot in the coming year and a half his career will last for. I don't expect any major shift, and with that in mind he's not going to push Lower out of the side as a midfield tagger.

[w3design]

I think that is the fault of the backline. I do not like Cooney in the backline, I don't know what the coach is thinking here.

Our transition is pretty awful but I don't think it's entirely the fault of our backline. We do have poor, average or below average kickers on every line though, Smith, Boyd, Talia, Goodes, Lower, Picken, even Cooney's field kicking makes me cringe these days. All these blokes in the side at the one time make it pretty hard to move the ball with any fluency. Something has to give.

I agree Cooney is a poor option off half back but where do you hide him?

[G-Mo77]

Stan Alves summed it up best when he said we have to many players who swarm on a contest.
Players have to be coached to stay away .
I think everyone knows this by now.

It was good listening to 3AW on the way home Saturday night. They gave a real honest and fair assessment unlike the stat hounds at MMM who I tend to listen to going home.

I think there is to much emphasis on winning the ball rather than spacing around a contest. That is of course from someone who knows nothing on how they're instructed.

[bornadog]

I agree Cooney is a poor option off half back but where do you hide him?

Forward line.

[LostDoggy]

There's been a lot more spread from the contest in recent weeks however, our movement from players up field has been incredibly stagnant - hence a fair bit of sideways passes while waiting for someone to give an option ahead of the play.

[Topdog]

Nick Riewoldt's goalkicking is the forward equivalent of Boyd turning it over.

.

33 goals 14 behinds is not the equivalent of Boyd turning it over

[Topdog]

I think the Gia hook up on foxtel highlighted the fact that he was not the natural leader of the club. He has been a terrific servant but it is time for new leadership blood.

Was at the game so i missed this. Anything in particular happen?

[1eyedog]

Was at the game so i missed this. Anything in particular happen?

Gia looked and acted like a natural leader.

He was well-spoken, encouraging, instructive, positive and everyone was listening to what he was saying on the bench from Hunter to Cooney. Everything you need from a leader. The commentary team were very impressed with him.

[The Doctor]

Was at the game so i missed this. Anything in particular happen?

Refer to this thread & Westdog's comments at post 6, sums it up pretty well

http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=12022

[Topdog]

The 2 bits of play that stood out with Boyd for me were

* 3rd quarter, long kick into fwd line. Jones, Stringer ( i think) and Boyd were all together. All 3 jumped for the mark and the ball spilled. Why is Boyd the small going for this mark? Silly bit of play.

* 4th qtr, Talia poor kick across the backline, Boyd reached it first but outworked by Cotchin and then basically just fell over trying to tackle.

[Topdog]

Refer to this thread & Westdog's comments at post 6, sums it up pretty well

http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=12022

cheers. I was gunning for him to be captain when these 2 were up against each other for it

[bulldogtragic]

Bump!!!!!!!!

[Greystache]

Where's he at? 29% by foot.

Of course it's all about his defensive work now he's a lock down player.

[F'scary]

:mad::mad::mad: Sack him before he has a chance to retire!

[bornadog]

Where's he at? 29% by foot.

Of course it's all about his defensive work now he's a lock down player.

29% equals the average disposals according to the stats not the efficiency. I have no idea what it represents.

check here (http://www.afl.com.au/stats)

[boydogs]

29% equals the average disposals according to the stats not the efficiency. I have no idea what it represents.

check here (http://www.afl.com.au/stats)

DE 63%. 29.1 = Boyd's average disposal count

[NoParkingOnMatchDays]

I think Richie Vandenberg was a better captain

[bornadog]

DE 63%. 29.1 = Boyd's average disposal count

ok thanks. What was quoted in the match was 29% efficiency which was wrong.

However, there were two vital kicks in that second quarter when he was on his own and the delivery to the forwards was shocking. Those things kill you chance to kick goals.

[bulldogtragic]

I think Richie Vandenberg was a better captain
That's just cruel :) :)

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Boyd looks closer to retirement than Gia.*

* Gia should go on another year as a permanent sub.

[boydogs]

ok thanks. What was quoted in the match was 29% efficiency which was wrong.

May have been for that quarter.

That article praising Boyd for his role on Cotchin completely overlooks the fact that he continually tries to be a hero with the ball & doesn't give it off to someone with better skills for the benefit of the team.

[comrade]

Ran at 63% for the night.

I wonder what his kicking efficiency was?

And it should be noted that an efficient disposal is very different to an effective one.

Even worse, Cooney went at 61%

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Ran at 63% for the night.

I wonder what his kicking efficiency was?

And it should be noted that an efficient disposal is very different to an effective one.

Even worse, Cooney went at 61%

Cooney's body language and application looks like a man who will be playing elsewhere next season.

[always right]

May have been for that quarter.

That article praising Boyd for his role on Cotchin completely overlooks the fact that he continually tries to be a hero with the ball & doesn't give it off to someone with better skills for the benefit of the team.

Just curious....who should he have given the ball off to tonight? They all butchered the ball. As n example, Hrovat's effort in the last quarter under no pressure was staggeringly inept. He's just lucky he will be forgiven because of his age.

[Remi Moses]

We're a better side with Matthew not in it.
Simple!
We have to many of the same type.

[comrade]

Cooney's body language and application looks like a man who will be playing elsewhere next season.

I think that's best for all concerned.

[boydogs]

Just curious....who should he have given the ball off to tonight? They all butchered the ball. As n example, Hrovat's effort in the last quarter under no pressure was staggeringly inept. He's just lucky he will be forgiven because of his age.

Libba, Griffen, Macrae were all over 70%
Banging it forward from a contest is one thing, but running forward in space and missing the target is such a waste.

[bornadog]

Libba, Griffen, Macrae were all over 70%
Banging it forward from a contest is one thing, but running forward in space and missing the target is such a waste.

Yes killed us tonight, a number of players did that

[LostDoggy]

He played on a useless hack in Trengove, don't really care that he beat him

[ratsmac]

If only he wasn't the captain. This is the only reason he can't be dropped. At least he should be subbed off. Hrovat was subbed off straight after making an error last week when he had no one moving to make an option up forward for him. He was playing his 3rd game. Boyd continually turns the ball over with no recourse. Boyd has played over 200. I think if he weren't captain it would be him instead of Cross playing for Willy.
I heard a caller on SEN tonight say Boyd is contaminating the younger pups. I had to laugh because I believe it. If Boyd can cough up the ball and nothing is done about it, how can you discipline the young players for the same thing? Boyd is not a good example on the field full stop. Yeah he is a great trainer, yeah he does selfless acts, yeah he gets tons of possession, but it's the fundamental parts of the game these days that he is really poor at. Which is accountability for your opponent and kicking the football to us. I'm growing tired of talking about Boyd and disposal efficiency in the same sentence to be honest.

[Hotdog60]

It's laughable how the opposition will sit off him and let him dispose of the ball with no fear. I was one of the people that was happy with his appointment as Captain. Times have changed since then. He has still been a great servant of the club but I feel the game is passing him by and more than ever you need players with a high efficacy rate.

[ReLoad]

Personally i still think he is a great player, but he has (apart form griffen, zero classy players to dish it out to to use effectively, he has no gut runners around him to take the easy option for him. If he had a 2009 cooney, or a lindsay gilbee, or a rohan smith, he is such a much more damaging player.

Joel selwood at Geelong is a great example, his foot skills are a pass mark, nothing more, but he is surrounded by brilliant disposal players, he takes the easy option by doing the hard work (just as Boyd does the hard work) dishing it ff and they are away.

We dont have any of the oung guns that even look like being a quality disposal. we need kids who have weapons. We have no variety, and Boyd is suffering the consequences because of that.

[G-Mo77]

We dont have any of the oung guns that even look like being a quality disposal. we need kids who have weapons. We have no variety, and Boyd is suffering the consequences because of that.

While we still do lack in that area I think you're overlooking Macrae and Hrovat.

[LostDoggy]

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2013-07-25/boyd-set-to-return

Among several topics covered by Boyd, he mentions he still has passion for the game, in fact it's getting stronger if anything and thinks he has a few good years left.

[SlimPickens]

Another week without Matthew in the team. The question has to be asked, are we a better team without him in it?

[LostDoggy]

Another week without Matthew in the team. The question has to be asked, are we a better team without him in it?

We were pretty good against St Kilda with him leading the way.
The improvement from the youngsters in recent times has me wondering.
Stevens is quite like a younger Matthew Boyd.
The jury is out I say, he will go on next year and if it turns out he has passed his best then so be it.

[Varangian]

Another week without Matthew in the team. The question has to be asked, are we a better team without him in it?

I think we were running better than 78% disposal efficiency today.

[LostDoggy]

[QUOTE=ReLoad;330101]Personally i still think he is a great player, but he has (apart form griffen, zero classy players to dish it out to to use effectively, he has no gut runners around him to take the easy option for him. QUOTE]

He gets 40 disposals a game - 20 for each team. He needs to do what Wallis has done. Halve the disponsals and get 80% efficient. At the moment its 50:50 if he is a liability or a star each week he turns up.

Despite that he's been the right captain through some very very tough times.

[Go_Dogs]

Tough call, but perhaps one that should be made. I still think he's an important cog, but we are fast developing players who may be more effective in his role at present and certainly will be moving forward.

I think he comes back in the best 22 but he's not a lock anymore unless he can redefine himself a bit.

[MrMahatma]

Reckon Griff will captain next year, Boyd will play on but will have a year similar to Cross this year where he'll play maybe 10 games, and it'll be his final season.

[ledge]

It looked like all our players had shocking disposal until it all clicked 4 games ago,, now we are coming together and the forward line is functioning maybe Boyds delivery will look better as well.

[Ghost Dog]

When you say delivery, the only one that counts is between the big sticks. In that department, we have some way to go.

[always right]

Let's not kid ourselves......some of our kicking into the forward line yesterday was as bad as I've seen it. Never seen so many blokes shank the ball as in the first half. Had it been Boyd doing it there would have been a call for a public lynching.Thankfully the rest of our game was good enough to overcome our poor delivery.

I think the point with Boyd is not whether we are a better side without him but how important it is to have our infield combination right. No coincidence that our performances have been better with the right mix of pace, height, mobility and hardness.

[LostDoggy]

[QUOTE=ReLoad;330101]Personally i still think he is a great player, but he has (apart form griffen, zero classy players to dish it out to to use effectively, he has no gut runners around him to take the easy option for him. QUOTE]

He gets 40 disposals a game - 20 for each team. He needs to do what Wallis has done. Halve the disponsals and get 80% efficient. At the moment its 50:50 if he is a liability or a star each week he turns up.

Despite that he's been the right captain through some very very tough times.

Good summation, pretty spot on. I'm all for Boyd playing another year but without the white hard-hat.


It looked like all our players had shocking disposal until it all clicked 4 games ago,, now we are coming together and the forward line is functioning maybe Boyds delivery will look better as well.

Good point. Definitely worth playing him to find out.

[ratsmac]

I believe we can't play Boyd and Cross in the same team and Cross has been fantastic the last couple weeks. It would be cruel to drop Cross for Boyd. I'm glad I'm not doing team selection.

[jeemak]

Let's not kid ourselves......some of our kicking into the forward line yesterday was as bad as I've seen it. Never seen so many blokes shank the ball as in the first half. Had it been Boyd doing it there would have been a call for a public lynching.Thankfully the rest of our game was good enough to overcome our poor delivery.

I think the point with Boyd is not whether we are a better side without him but how important it is to have our infield combination right. No coincidence that our performances have been better with the right mix of pace, height, mobility and hardness.

You make a few good points.

The disposal going forward was pretty dirty on occasion, though we benefitted from wanting to pressure Carlton and win the ball at all costs, helped by Carlton's overall insipidness once it was inside our forward 50m.

Getting the physical mix right is one thing, though having each player stick to their roles is another and Boyd needs to demonstrate he can do that rather than being the major accumulator if that's not what the coaches want of him.

I personally think he'll do whatever's asked of him.

[Greystache]

It's a good question Slim.

Our skills overall are pretty poor and I don't think Boyd will make it too much worse, my concern is in the last month or so our improvement has been driven by the manic defensive intensity we've brought and the pressure we've put on the opposition ball carrier. Boyd will leave a gaping hole in this part of the team and 40 average possessions won't make up for that.

I'm not keen for him to come back in.

[Scorlibo]

I'd like to see him reinvent himself as a forward. Let him play the role Addison has been playing and see if he can't run his opponent into the turf.

[Go_Dogs]

I'd like to see him reinvent himself as a forward. Let him play the role Addison has been playing and see if he can't run his opponent into the turf.

Nice suggestion. Way back when Hahn went down I thought Boud could fill that role. He's good overhead and a pretty reliable set shot. He did spend a bit of time forward in his last appearance too.

[F'scary]

What is interesting is that Boyd no longer seems indispensable. An indicator, perhaps, that the quality of the playing stock is improving.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

It's a good question Slim.

Our skills overall are pretty poor and I don't think Boyd will make it too much worse, my concern is in the last month or so our improvement has been driven by the manic defensive intensity we've brought and the pressure we've put on the opposition ball carrier. Boyd will leave a gaping hole in this part of the team and 40 average possessions won't make up for that.

I'm not keen for him to come back in.

Sums up my thoughts too.

What is Boyd's point of difference? What does he bring to the side that we don't already have? He used to be good at the clearances, but Libba has surpassed him and Griffen has improved in this area too. Wallis has been handy in this part of the ground in recent weeks as well.

We are a better side without him. Not to say he isn't a good player, but we have players who are more well rounded than he is and use the ball better.

Next year will be interesting for him.

[LostDoggy]

Nice suggestion. Way back when Hahn went down I thought Boud could fill that role. He's good overhead and a pretty reliable set shot. He did spend a bit of time forward in his last appearance too.

I've won quite a few bets with mates backing Boyd to miss set shots. One famous one he was on the boundary line against the Saints last year when we got thumped, and I backed him to put it out on the full, he didn't let me down. Running shots he is slightly better but not much.

I am not a great Boyd fan (love his effort and willingness to win hard ball) but as turnovers have become more costly so has Boyd. Realistically I can see him playing Cross' role next year just playing when we need to rest the kids or have injuries, and then retiring a well respected and great servant of the club.

[bulldogtragic]

Sums up my thoughts too.

What is Boyd's point of difference? What does he bring to the side that we don't already have? He used to be good at the clearances, but Libba has surpassed him and Griffen has improved in this area too. Wallis has been handy in this part of the ground in recent weeks as well.

We are a better side without him. Not to say he isn't a good player, but we have players who are more well rounded than he is and use the ball better.

Next year will be interesting for him.
Good points IMO.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

It's a good question Slim.

Our skills overall are pretty poor and I don't think Boyd will make it too much worse, my concern is in the last month or so our improvement has been driven by the manic defensive intensity we've brought and the pressure we've put on the opposition ball carrier. Boyd will leave a gaping hole in this part of the team and 40 average possessions won't make up for that.

I'm not keen for him to come back in.

We should remember that Boyd carried our midfield for a long time and it would be too short sighted to discount him entirely. Their has been form fluctuations in a number of our players like Picken, Cross, Dahlhaus, Cooney just to name a few and whilst our form in the past 4 weeks has been most encouraging it hardly suggests there isn't a place for our captain IMO.