Rate Simon Dalrymple

[bornadog]

This thread is just for general discussion.

Looking at his selections, I think he has done very well, but as we have said, his very first one could have been better (understatement:)) and I am sure in hindsight we could all do better. I think Simon is doing a great job and I feel safe that he will pick up some beauties in the next few years. Always helps when you have early picks.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/mmsalih/Untitled_zps08ed36a3.jpg (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/mmsalih/media/Untitled_zps08ed36a3.jpg.html)

Of course Shane Thorne didn't work out and Schofield, well had great potential but couldn't hack the worak rate that was needed at this level. Skinner was also another speculative pick as was Tom Hill. Simon has also been helped by some father/sons, but you know what, we don't have to pick them if they are no good.

Simon has also done well with Rookie picks, in particular Dahl, and JJ as well as Roberts in the preseason draft may end up pretty good as well.

How do you rate his performance.

[Remi Moses]

First one looks a stinker. Possibly Tutt maybe a player
The father sons were a no brainer, and two excellent rookie picks.
The last two look good for mine.Hard to judge resource wise into recruiting,and the heavily compromised drafts.

[Ghost Dog]

One might shrug the shoulders with a pick 74, but Jayden Schofield was still a disappointment for mine.

I was right behind Skinner, but was always going to be a risky pick.

[bornadog]

Out of 18 players in four drafts, only four are no longer with the club. Of course the jury is still out on a few

[Remi Moses]

One might shrug the shoulders with a pick 74, but Jayden Schofield was still a disappointment for mine. Was right behind Skinner, but was always going to be a risky pick.

Schofield was a disappointment because he went home.
Reckon he looked alright

[LostDoggy]

People say coaching and recruiting are separate but if you look at the first two drafts under Eade compared to the next 2 drafts under McCartney, there is a noticeable difference.
Admittedly, comparison is difficult with just a one year sample considering 2010 with two F/S don't really count.

Last years recruiting was unbelievable. We picked up 9 players, all of whom have so far proven to be worth what we payed for them. At that rate, we only need another 1-2 more drafts and the rebuild is complete!

[Remi Moses]

Gotta say I agree. Add another strong draft and you'd imagine a strong list for a period of time.

[GVGjr]

I think you also need to add the Rookie listed players to the mix to evaluate Dalrymples performance.

[LostDoggy]

As long as he doesn't take speculative players with anymore top 20 picks I think he'll do very well. No gambling early please. I still can't get over the Howard WTF moment. If you are going to act like you are smarter than anyone else in the room you had better get it right. Last year looks good. We still took a gamble on Stringer though and despite the exciting stuff we've seen it remains unanswered if it was the right call. Interesting to see after he gets a preseason in whether he can withstand the intensity of afl for a full season.

[Go_Dogs]

I think you also need to add the Rookie listed players to the mix to evaluate Dalrymples performance.

Agreed he has done well through the rookie draft which has been excellent for the club.

I think he is trending in the right direction and has netted us some good players over the past few years. He'll ultimately be judged on how he goes the next few years too as he has a great opportunity to really set the club up for the next 10 years.

[Topdog]

One might shrug the shoulders with a pick 74, but Jayden Schofield was still a disappointment for mine. Was right behind Skinner, but was always going to be a risky pick.

Skinner was the risk, Schofield was a good selection and looked a good player.

It's great that Simon has improved each year with his drafting

[Ghost Dog]

Skinner was the risk, Schofield was a good selection and looked a good player.

It's great that Simon has improved each year with his drafting

Yep, I reckon he was too. What I meant was Schofield was a big disappointment, and probably really wanted to play for a WA club all along. Skinner was a long shot at best.

[LostDoggy]

I think this kind of discussion is the perfect antidote to watching a loss on the weekend. Yes, we're struggling, but gee we've drafted really well, and whilst the present may be murky, the future is bright.

Looking at each individual list, I'd put 2009 down to Dalrymple being new to the role, we were in a different headspace then, pushing for a shot at the flag. It's still a stinker, but something I don't think would really haunt him that much. You'd have preferred he got it right but can forgive.

2010 is a bit different. We had the F/S, those boys pretty much picked themselves, and the rest of the draft was shot after that. That's two years running, and suddenly the hole in our list looks a little bigger, and will only get more so in the next two seasons.

So I'm pretty chuffed that Simon got it right with his 2011 draft, because let's face it, if he didn't we were up the proverbial creek sans paddles. Both Clay and Talia look the goods, Dickson the jury is still out on, don't know much/haven't seen much of Pearce.

2012. Wow. We'll be talking about it in ten years' time. And we haven't even seen Prudden yet. I still think Jake Stringer will end up being the best pick of the lot, long term, but at the moment it's all about The Rat, with Macrae a close second.

Like previous posters have said, if we nail the next draft or two we'll be alright. Hopefully we can sit here this time next year and comment about how 2013's draft was even better…

[Greystache]

Our last 2 drafts look significant improvements on our previous 5 years with far fewer speculative picks and young players showing more immediately upon arriving at the club. Whether it's Dalrymple improving or a revamping of the football club's player selection methodology I guess we'll never know.

Our rookie draft selections continue to be among the best in the league.

I certainly have more confidence going into draft week than I'd had previously.


Skinner was the risk, Schofield was a good selection and looked a good player.

Schofield certainly had the talent to make it at AFL level, but like so many other selections in the period he was drafted we seemed to apply little focus to the type of person he was and how he would respond in an AFL environment like ours. Schofield, Everitt, Wells, Grant all have/had question marks over the mental application rather than their talent.

[Doc26]

I find it difficult to assess Simon's individual performance without knowing the level of autonomy he was given to make the final call on each of the selections. Both 2011 and 2012 look promising but how much of the credit should be afforded to Simon over say McCartney, Shannon Grant etc I really don't know. From the stands I see the past two seasons selections at the least being a collaborative effort.

Based on the national draft, on face value, both 2009 and 2010 look ordinary to me with the exception of Tom Liberatore in 2010 who was never going to be passed up given his pedigree and what he had shown as a junior. Howard at pick 15 in the '09 draft was a surprise at the time and remains so. Further, that players such as Sam Reid (Swans), Christensen & Vardy (Cats), Stratton (Hawks) etc get picked up post the Tutt selection in '09 does highlight why these are top level Clubs. As for 2010, the remainder, Schofield, Skinner and Hill have proven to be wasted selections and Mitch Wallis, a high first round pick at 22, to me still seems a fair way off the mark although there would be few who would question this particular selection at the time.

With that said from the 2011 rookie draft on, i.e Dahl and JJ there appears currency in the selections.

[bornadog]

With that said from the 2011 rookie draft on, i.e Dahl and JJ there appears currency in the selections.

Rookie selections have been excellent with Picken, Dahl, JJ coming through in this period.

[Mofra]

It seems with the exception 1999, Dalrymple is an upgrade on Clayton in pure drafting terms; I'm not sure how much input he has in trading but our trading last year I was very heppy with.

The first two drafts apper iffy at best although I'm still certain Wallis will eventually be a very good player for us. I don't buy the "he had early draft picks" argument regarding good performance - who would swap Hrovat, Macrae, Stringer, Smith and Talia for Ray, Walsh, Power, McMahon and Faulkner?

[Ghost Dog]

Good post Mofra. Our hand has been forced a bit with injuries. Fortunately, the youngsters have stepped up and shown early promise, and in doing so, haven't left us wondering about any of our picks. Early ticks for the 2012 recruiting drive. Can't wait to see what we can add in 2013.

[bulldogtragic]

I think this kind of discussion is the perfect antidote to watching a loss on the weekend. Yes, we're struggling, but gee we've drafted really well, and whilst the present may be murky, the future is bright.

Looking at each individual list, I'd put 2009 down to Dalrymple being new to the role, we were in a different headspace then, pushing for a shot at the flag. It's still a stinker, but something I don't think would really haunt him that much. You'd have preferred he got it right but can forgive.

2010 is a bit different. We had the F/S, those boys pretty much picked themselves, and the rest of the draft was shot after that. That's two years running, and suddenly the hole in our list looks a little bigger, and will only get more so in the next two seasons.

So I'm pretty chuffed that Simon got it right with his 2011 draft, because let's face it, if he didn't we were up the proverbial creek sans paddles. Both Clay and Talia look the goods, Dickson the jury is still out on, don't know much/haven't seen much of Pearce.

2012. Wow. We'll be talking about it in ten years' time. And we haven't even seen Prudden yet. I still think Jake Stringer will end up being the best pick of the lot, long term, but at the moment it's all about The Rat, with Macrae a close second.

Like previous posters have said, if we nail the next draft or two we'll be alright. Hopefully we can sit here this time next year and comment about how 2013's draft was even better…
Wholeheartedly agree. I would have loved Port not to bid their pick 16 for Wallis, but that's not a criticism of SD.

[Doc26]

Rookie selections have been excellent with Picken, Dahl, JJ coming through in this period.

I do agree although the Picken rookie selection was in the 08/09 draft year and from my reckoning pre Dalrymple taking over from Clayton as Recruiting Mgr. Further to your point, and now pushing two years on, I still don't mind the look of the rookie selections of Lin Jong and Tom Campbell in the 11/12 year rookie draft.

[Cyberdoggie]

Struggled the first couple of years but the last two were a big improvement (since Macca has come along).

Very difficult for us to judge his performance because we don't know what his instructions are from the coaching staff and others.

It's a tough job as the buck stops with him regardless.

Last years draft has been big for Dalrymple. Four picks inside 50 helps but those first two picks certainly weren't easy. Stringer i guess picked himself but Macrae over Wines and others was a big call. Hrovat and Hunter are wins and even Prudden i think will play senior footy this year if he recovers from injury.

Overall i'd say he's doing well. This year like last is crucial. Lots of holes to fill, key forward, pacey midfield/defenders, good ball users.

[Ghost Dog]

Struggled the first couple of years but the last two were a big improvement (since Macca has come along).

Very difficult for us to judge his performance because we don't know what his instructions are from the coaching staff and others.

It's a tough job as the buck stops with him regardless.

Last years draft has been big for Dalrymple. Four picks inside 50 helps but those first two picks certainly weren't easy. Stringer i guess picked himself but Macrae over Wines and others was a big call. Hrovat and Hunter are wins and even Prudden i think will play senior footy this year if he recovers from injury.

Overall i'd say he's doing well. This year like last is crucial. Lots of holes to fill, key forward, pacey midfield/defenders, good ball users.

Having seen Jackson play some senior footy, how do you feel about that decision now?

[Cyberdoggie]

Having seen Jackson play some senior footy, how do you feel about that decision now?

Both excellent players, I think Macrae has more room for improvement being as he was so slightly built and will definately bulk up. Wines is a standout individual and inside mid, would of been perfect for Melbourne, still can't work out why they didn't pick him.
If we hadn't of picked Clay Smith the year before then we probably would of picked him.

I'm very happy with Macrae, he's not the toughest footballer going around but he will be delight to watch at full flight.

I think all 5 of last years ND picks are excellent pick ups. Best draft we have had in a very very long time, probably ever.

[LostDoggy]

I think all 5 of last years ND picks are excellent pick ups. Best draft we have had in a very very long time, probably ever.

Go a long way to beat 1999 :)

Murphy, Gilbee, Hargrave, Hahn, Gia - about a thousand games?

[bulldogtragic]

Go a long way to beat 1999 :)

Murphy, Gilbee, Hargrave, Hahn, Gia - about a thousand games?
Hahn: 176 games - 161 goals
Hargrave: 178 - 35
Gilbee: 181 - 105
Gia: 243 - 303 *no
Murphy: 242 - 165 *no
Wiggins: 12 - 5
Bowden: 50 - 55

Total: 1,082 games - 829 goals *no

(Trade: Eagleton 221 - 186, Bartlett 42 - 34, and PSD: Wills 10 - 6)

Total: 1,355 games - 1,310 goals *no from 1999 list management

(We lost Martin (Bartlett), Powell (Wiggins), Montgomery (& Pick 28 - Brent Guerra) (Eagleton) and Cameron (Hahn & Hargrave) who played 248 games at new clubs, kicking 178 goals (+ Guerra 236 - 105 *no)


Im not sure 1999 is a fair yard stick, this is crazy good. If any class can replicate this, the class of 2012 can!

Stringer, Macrae, Hrovat, Prudden, Hunter, Lower, Stevens, Young, Campbell, JJ, Goodes.

[Ghost Dog]

Both excellent players, I think Macrae has more room for improvement being as he was so slightly built and will definately bulk up. Wines is a standout individual and inside mid, would of been perfect for Melbourne, still can't work out why they didn't pick him.
If we hadn't of picked Clay Smith the year before then we probably would of picked him.

I'm very happy with Macrae, he's not the toughest footballer going around but he will be delight to watch at full flight.

I think all 5 of last years ND picks are excellent pick ups. Best draft we have had in a very very long time, probably ever.

Interesting thoughts CyberD
Gerard Healy was spruiking some footage of JMac on Fox, doing the blind hand pass to Cooney, who goalled. Was totally dismissed by Mike Shehan. His call was " we see that sort of stuff every week from AFL players". Well, I'd ask Shehan to find some examples of fourth or fifth gamers having the confidence to make a pass like that.
Anyone else catch that segment?

What I like is his footy smarts and ability to make quick, sound decisions - very team oriented. Passes to advantage, composure in abundance, which is exactly what we need.

[bornadog]

Another way to look at the comparison between Dalrmple and Clayton is to look at the last 8 years, ie 4 each:

Clayton

2005 to 2008

Players Chosen 17.
Played AFL 16
Still Playing (for Bulldogs or otherwise) 11

Dalrmple

2009 to 2012

Players Chosen 18.
Played AFL 15 (although Prudden should get a game)
Still Playing (for Bulldogs or otherwise) 11

We can all carry on that this batch is better than that batch, but the true measure is whether they are still on an AFL list and playing senior football. Dalrmples batch may turn out to be better in the long run, but they are still too young to say they have really succeeded.

[Remi Moses]

Both excellent players, I think Macrae has more room for improvement being as he was so slightly built and will definately bulk up. Wines is a standout individual and inside mid, would of been perfect for Melbourne, still can't work out why they didn't pick him.
If we hadn't of picked Clay Smith the year before then we probably would of picked him.

I'm very happy with Macrae, he's not the toughest footballer going around but he will be delight to watch at full flight.

I think all 5 of last years ND picks are excellent pick ups. Best draft we have had in a very very long time, probably ever.

I was staggered Melbourne didn't pick up Wines.
Toumpas looks ( early days) an outside type with nice skills.
Looks like he's still coming to grips with the pace of the game.

[Remi Moses]

Interesting thoughts CyberD
Gerard Healy was spruiking some footage of JMac on Fox, doing the blind hand pass to Cooney, who goalled. Was totally dismissed by Mike Shehan. His call was " we see that sort of stuff every week from AFL players". Well, I'd ask Shehan to find some examples of fourth or fifth gamers having the confidence to make a pass like that.
Anyone else catch that segment?

What I like is his footy smarts and ability to make quick, sound decisions - very team oriented. Passes to advantage, composure in abundance, which is exactly what we need.

Interesting, Pendlebury did that last weekend and Mike was wetting his strides!:eek:
Time for the pipe and slippers Mike and hang em' up.

[bulldogtragic]

Another way to look at the comparison between Dalrmple and Clayton is to look at the last 8 years, ie 4 each:

Clayton

2005 to 2008

Players Chosen 17.
Played AFL 16
Still Playing (for Bulldogs or otherwise) 11

Dalrmple

2009 to 2012

Players Chosen 18.
Played AFL 15 (although Prudden should get a game)
Still Playing (for Bulldogs or otherwise) 11

We can all carry on that this batch is better than that batch, but the true measure is whether they are still on an AFL list and playing senior football. Dalrmples batch may turn out to be better in the long run, but they are still too young to say they have really succeeded.
Does that include rookies BAD?

[bornadog]

Does that include rookies BAD?

Not including Rookies.

[ledge]

Can we also not forget the ladder position of each year, it's ok to
Look at those figures but the lower you are in the ladder the more chance you have if getting good players.
3 preliminary finals compared to low on the ladder makes a big difference.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

The next two drafts will be critical and a good judge.

I do rate Dalrymple though, much more confident in our drafting than I've ever been. His 09 draft was terrible, but it was when we were in "flag mode" so there's no doubt philosophies have since changed. Not convinced on the 2010 draft either, but we were always going to pick Wallis, so it's a moot point. His efforts since then have been very good, although it could be argued that it would have been a little difficult to get last years wrong.

The true test is this draft and next IMO. If he drafts well, we will be a very good side in 3-4 years time. If he doesn't, we're in trouble.

[westdog54]

Another way to look at the comparison between Dalrmple and Clayton is to look at the last 8 years, ie 4 each:

Clayton

2005 to 2008

Players Chosen 17.
Played AFL 16
Still Playing (for Bulldogs or otherwise) 11

Dalrmple

2009 to 2012

Players Chosen 18.
Played AFL 15 (although Prudden should get a game)
Still Playing (for Bulldogs or otherwise) 11

We can all carry on that this batch is better than that batch, but the true measure is whether they are still on an AFL list and playing senior football. Dalrmples batch may turn out to be better in the long run, but they are still too young to say they have really succeeded.

If anything, this measurement should work in Clayton's favour as players drafted from 05 to 08 should, in theory, have a higher probability of having played AFL.

The fact that 4 out of 5 of this years class have already debuted and showed signs of prosperous careers is an excellent sign. Can see Prudden getting his shot towards the end of the year. Add Talia and Smith to that and he's already up on points IMO.

I'm not in the group that is so unconvinced by Pearce either. He has work to do but I don't think for a moment he's gone at the end of this year. Dickson on the other hand needs to add some strings to his bow.

[LostDoggy]

Schofield certainly had the talent to make it at AFL level, but like so many other selections in the period he was drafted we seemed to apply little focus to the type of person he was and how he would respond in an AFL environment like ours. Schofield, Everitt, Wells, Grant all have/had question marks over the mental application rather than their talent.

Hence the much maligned (by some supporters) “no dickheads” rule from BMac.


Interesting, Pendlebury did that last weekend and Mike was wetting his strides!:eek:
Time for the pipe and slippers Mike and hang em' up.

Damn. Sitting here in my pipe and slippers whilst I read that. Nothing wrong with a good pipe and some Broady Dress Boots mate…

[stefoid]

Judging on the sub 40 picks (the most important ones), and excluding the F/S's , you can see an improving trend, I reckon.

It doesnt look like he has stuffed up a sub-40 pick since 2009. I reckon Mac has been a positive influence on him, and probably is himself influence a lot by Geelongs recruiter.

Id say he went from a 5 in 2009 to maybe a 7 to 10 in 2012. Stringer and macrae will be at least solid, which would give a 7.

We wont know how well we have done in 2012 until we work out if stringer and macrae turn out to be better players than vlastuin, wines, mayes and menzel. If Stringer and Macrae turn out to be clearly better than those other 4 blokes, id give dalrymple a 10.

[Mofra]

We wont know how well we have done in 2012 until we work out if stringer and macrae turn out to be better players than vlastuin, wines, mayes and menzel. If Stringer and Macrae turn out to be clearly better than those other 4 blokes, id give dalrymple a 10.
It's going to be difficult to compare Stringer to that bunch, I really don't see him developing into an inside mid for a long time (if ever), more a high forward that can play tall and short. Macrae vs Mayes will be intresting to watch in coming years, Mayes having a fantastic debut season as is Macrae, Jackson coming from a little further back body-wise.

[bornadog]

Hence the much maligned (by some supporters) “no dickheads” rule from BMac.

Rocket had that policy and mentioned that many times.

I think you will find that the our club culture is based on this. Of course, you can do all the background checks in the world, and interviews and whatever and people can turn out differently. How many times does this happen in ones own work place. Young men can easily be lead astray (see Libba), but what makes a good club is how they deal with the situation and support the individual. I think we have done well over the years and ensured the public is not aware of anything and therefore not ruining our reputation.

[Greystache]

Hence the much maligned (by some supporters) “no dickheads” rule from BMac.

Most clubs at least claim to have this policy, we did previously and still burned early picks on guys like B Murphy, Wells, Sherman, and others . The difference in McCartney's approach is just not appearing to be a dickhead is not enough, they need to convince us that they are genuinely a quality person with the desire to get the best out of themselves. So far in both drafts every player we've selected seem to have an excellent attitude.

[LostDoggy]

Most clubs at least claim to have this policy, we did previously and still burned early picks on guys like B Murphy, Wells, Sherman, and others . The difference in McCartney's approach is just not appearing to be a dickhead is not enough, they need to convince us that they are genuinely a quality person with the desire to get the best out of themselves. So far in both drafts every player we've selected seem to have an excellent attitude.

Exactly. We've gotten serious about it, rather than paying it lip service. And yes, Rocket cannot be said to have done anything other than pay it lip service considering who we drafted during his tenure.

[The Underdog]

Pot the F/S system all you like, but Libba for a 2nd rounder & Hunter for a 3rd are looking like spectacular value.

[LostDoggy]

Pot the F/S system all you like, but Libba for a 2nd rounder & Hunter for a 3rd are looking like spectacular value.

We got lucky with Libba, in that we had two in the same year, so he might have gone first round but it didn't really matter, that was a formality.

[bornadog]

Exactly. We've gotten serious about it, rather than paying it lip service. And yes, Rocket cannot be said to have done anything other than pay it lip service considering who we drafted during his tenure.

Sorry this is uninformed and just trying to pot the previous coach.

How many times during Rockets tenure did we read about a player in the press playing up after hours? To me that is what the no dickhead policy is all about.

[comrade]

Sorry this is uninformed and just trying to pot the previous coach.

How many times during Rockets tenure did we read about a player in the press playing up after hours? To me that is what the no dickhead policy is all about.

Clubs are great at keeping things in house.

Libba's drug use/late night activities would never have made the light of day if he hadn't passed out in a CBD gutter.

Rocket was great and you can't get them all right but we drafted more than a few dickheads during his tenure, that's just a fact.

[The Underdog]

Clubs are great at keeping things in house.

Libba's drug use/late night activities would never have made the light of day if he hadn't passed out in a CBD gutter.

Rocket was great and you can't get them all right but we drafted more than a few dickheads during his tenure, that's just a fact.

The concept of a football club with no dickheads in it is laughable.

[bornadog]

The concept of a football club with no dickheads in it is laughable.

I agree, we can't just say that this coach has not recruited any dickheads at the club, because sooner of later it will happen. As I said in my original post, you can have all the interview techniques you want, the checking of the family, the school record etc etc, but young people can go off the rails. The good clubs learn to deal with these guys, in house and if that doesn't work, they will not last.

For all we know, some guys are dickheads, but the club has dealt with it and we will never know.

[Maddog37]

The definition of what constitutes a dickhead is also open to interpretation according to ones own values. I know some great people that simply have charachter flaws. Do they occasionally act like a dickhead...yes. Does that make them a dickhead? Not necessarily.

It does seem that Macca has a more rigid and structured approach to recruitment as he discussed at the member events earler in the year.

[bornadog]

The definition of what constitutes a dickhead is also open to interpretation according to ones own values. I know some great people that simply have charachter flaws. Do they occasionally act like a dickhead...yes. Does that make them a dickhead? Not necessarily.

It does seem that Macca has a more rigid and structured approach to recruitment as he discussed at the member events earler in the year.

I think times have also changed with all the media scrutiny, forums, social media, etc clubs can't afford to have dickheads at their club.

[LostDoggy]

Problem is BAD, yours and my favourite undrafted player from last season would almost certainly fall into this category.

A club must look after it's brand, but the ultimate goal of a club is to win a premiership. Problem is there are talented dickheads who are more likely to help you win a cup than a team of morally correct, outstanding members of the community.

We've traditionally fallen short by over-extracting under-talented players. Lets not forget the game of football is built heavily on talent, not off-field morality.

[Mofra]

We've traditionally fallen short by over-extracting under-talented players. Lets not forget the game of football is built heavily on talent, not off-field morality.
The unfortunate aspect is we are a club that can less afford off field incidents compared to the bigger clubs who have sponsors lining up to back them.
Whether it has a large or small bearing on the recruitment process, we are probably less inclined to take a marginal case than some other clubs.

I think B-Mac's approach is a little more nuanced than a simple "no dickheads" policy. He really seems to look for people who fit a certain mantra, a self-sacrifice type of mentality.

[Greystache]

Sorry this is uninformed and just trying to pot the previous coach.

How many times during Rockets tenure did we read about a player in the press playing up after hours? To me that is what the no dickhead policy is all about.

You mean like Harbrow getting arrested for D&D during the finals and it not making the papers?

So the no dickhead policy isn't actually about stopping players being dickheads, it's about covering it up effectively? Got it.

[Twodogs]

I agree, we can't just say that this coach has not recruited any dickheads at the club, because sooner of later it will happen. As I said in my original post, you can have all the interview techniques you want, the checking of the family, the school record etc etc, but young people can go off the rails. The good clubs learn to deal with these guys, in house and if that doesn't work, they will not last.

For all we know, some guys are dickheads, but the club has dealt with it and we will never know.



My take on it is Rocket is a bit of a lair himself whereas Bmac doesn't suffer fools. I think there are arguments for both POVs.



Sorry this is uninformed and just trying to pot the previous coach.

How many times during Rockets tenure did we read about a player in the press playing up after hours? To me that is what the no dickhead policy is all about.


Not really. While I agree that a keeping things in house is usually the best outcome for a footy club if one of our players was responsible for a major crime I would want them held to account in public.

To me a no DH policy is more about having a good culture where the players respect one another and the club and act accordingly.

[Topdog]

Its all lip service really. Every club will have a dickhead that is good enough.

[bornadog]

You mean like Harbrow getting arrested for D&D during the finals and it not making the papers?

So the no dickhead policy isn't actually about stopping players being dickheads, it's about covering it up effectively? Got it.

Like Malthouse winning a premiership when everyone wanted to hang Shaw and DIDAK, I will take the premiership everytime. Got it.

[Greystache]

Like Malthouse winning a premiership when everyone wanted to hang Shaw and DIDAK, I will take the premiership everytime. Got it.

What has any of that got to do with you claiming the lack of bad publicity was proof Eade's no dickhead policy was effective and that other posters are uniformed


Sorry this is uninformed and just trying to pot the previous coach.

How many times during Rockets tenure did we read about a player in the press playing up after hours? To me that is what the no dickhead policy is all about.

[bornadog]

What has any of that got to do with you claiming the lack of bad publicity was proof Eade's no dickhead policy was effective and that other posters are uniformed

You proved that already as Harbrow's was kept out of the paper. This is what I said in my post, goodclubs can handle the dickheads. FFS, Geelong has won 3 premierships with dickheads but they know how to deal with them.

Do you really believe under Macca there will be no incidents that are kept under the carpet?
If he really had a no dickhead policy Libba would have been sacked last year.

[Twodogs]

Settle petals. You guys are starting to go over the same ground.

[Dry Rot]

Back on topic, IMO we can't really count our top three 2012 recruits now or in future re the topic of this thread.

[Dry Rot]

Pot the F/S system all you like, but Libba for a 2nd rounder & Hunter for a 3rd are looking like spectacular value.

Balanced out by the failure with Cordy and Wallis for a first rounder.

[mighty_west]

Balanced out by the failure with Cordy and Wallis for a first rounder.

How can you call both Cordy and Wallis failures especially given they're still at the club very much in development mode? I still see Cords as ruckman even though he's been planted up forward, and Wallis has shown more than enough when playing well that he will be a quality mid, some players just take longer to develop than others, even midfielders.

[GVGjr]

Its all lip service really. Every club will have a dickhead that is good enough.

Aker certainly springs to mind

[bulldogtragic]

Aker certainly springs to mind
Over 320 games and over 430 goals. Seems you can have a decent career and not be a choir boy.

[F'scary]

Balanced out by the failure with Cordy and Wallis for a first rounder.

Hang on, Wallis was great last season. He's just a bit down on form but has shown he can mix it with the best. We just need him to get back up there asap.

Cordy is another matter.

[GVGjr]

Over 320 games and over 430 goals. Seems you can have a decent career and not be a choir boy.


Outstanding career but a self absorbed dickhead from the moment he established himself as a senior footballer to even 4 years past his retirement.

The no dickhead policy is something most clubs try and follow but if you are in the top 4 sides and have an aging list but still have the chance to acquire someone like Akermanis at a reasonable price then it really tests the true intent of the policy.

I've never seen it as a genuine policy. It was our preferred position that certainly allowed the likes of Akermanis and Hall to be acquired along they way.

Typically people get sacked for breaking policies but our so called policy had some give in it whenever it was needed.

[bornadog]

Balanced out by the failure with Cordy and Wallis for a first rounder.

Agree the Jury is still out with these two. Wallis certainly has gone backwards this year. I guess time will tell whether they make it and then maybe we will judge Simon differently.

[Remi Moses]

Balanced out by the failure with Cordy and Wallis for a first rounder.

So wallis is a failure . Total Rubbish
He picked up an award last season in the B+ F!!
To early to be saying it was a failure! Cordy was recruited in the Clayton era anyhow!

[Twodogs]

Balanced out by the failure with Cordy and Wallis for a first rounder.



I have a lot of faith Wallis will make it. He was pretty good last year and younger players tend to be good and bad in equal measures. As they mature they play well more often. Mitch has shown us what he is capable of and I reckon he will have a good career.

Regarding Cordy I'm always reluctant to write a big guy off to early. I've seen so many improve in leaps and bounds as they mature. He's shown enough good to go with the overall dross he's served up so far to warrant some patience.

[Remi Moses]

Back on topic, IMO we can't really count our top three 2012 recruits now or in future re the topic of this thread.

Don't you judge a recruiter on the players he brings in?
Surely you are judged on that criteria?

[bornadog]

Don't you judge a recruiter on the players he brings in?
Surely you are judged on that criteria?

As first year players, at this stage they have achieved nothing.

[Remi Moses]

As first year players, at this stage they have achieved nothing.

Agree, but it's also to early to condem some of his recruits as well

[bornadog]

Agree, but it's also to early to condem some of his recruits as well

true

[LostDoggy]

Outstanding career but a self absorbed dickhead from the moment he established himself as a senior footballer to even 4 years past his retirement.

The no dickhead policy is something most clubs try and follow but if you are in the top 4 sides and have an aging list but still have the chance to acquire someone like Akermanis at a reasonable price then it really tests the true intent of the policy.

I've never seen it as a genuine policy. It was our preferred position that certainly allowed the likes of Akermanis and Hall to be acquired along they way.

Typically people get sacked for breaking policies but our so called policy had some give in it whenever it was needed.

Aker was a genuine superstar in his prime, most players who are that good get away with it.
Just look at Collingwood's rat pack, Swan, Didak, Shaw, Johnson etc.

[Maddog37]

I personally believe there is zero chance of Wallis playing less than 200 games. He is like his dad in that once he finds his spot he will be as reliable as death and taxes.

[Remi Moses]

This was coined by Paul Roos , but lets be frank most people wouldn't know if any of their players were playing up. I think you always need (as Sheedy would say) a cowboy or two.

[Remi Moses]

I personally believe there is zero chance of Wallis playing less than 200 games. He is like his dad in that once he finds his spot he will be as reliable as death and taxes.

I couldn't agree more.staggered how young players and their abilities are critiqued so quickly.

[bornadog]

I personally believe there is zero chance of Wallis playing less than 200 games. He is like his dad in that once he finds his spot he will be as reliable as death and taxes.

What position do you think that will be?

I remember his dad being criticised by doggies fans when he was a midfielder. It was only when he moved to HBF that he settled and became a very consistent player. Maybe Wallis needs a new role?

[Mantis]

I couldn't agree more.staggered how young players and their abilities are critiqued so quickly.

What special abilities does Wallis have that sets him apart from the joe average player?

[mighty_west]

What special abilities does Wallis have that sets him apart from the joe average player?

His ability to just find the ball and continually get himself in the right positions reading the game for starters, from what I've been told his leadership skills for a young bloke are also a standout.

[ledge]

Only thing WAllis is doing wrong at the moment is not stabbing his kicks and they still float a little, in AFL that just gives the opposition another second to get there, he will be an accumulater once he settles. I see him being one of the outsiders who receives it, the second handler of the ball who delivers to the forwards once his kicking is fixed

[Maddog37]

What position do you think that will be?

I remember his dad being criticised by doggies fans when he was a midfielder. It was only when he moved to HBF that he settled and became a very consistent player. Maybe Wallis needs a new role?

I was thinking a half back flank might be ok BAD. I still think he needs a couple more preasons to allow him to get to more contests and execute better when he has the ball. Something like a Stanton role maybe.........

[mighty_west]

Just had a feeling when first drafted, thought Libba would come on alot quicker than Wallis but Wallis would end up the best of the two players, that second part is yet to be seen off course. Just his style kind of reminds me of Watson and Dane Swan to an extent, and both those lads took quite some time to kick on.

[always right]

Just had a feeling when first drafted, thought Libba would come on alot quicker than Wallis but Wallis would end up the best of the two players, that second part is yet to be seen off course. Just his style kind of reminds me of Watson and Dane Swan to an extent, and both those lads took quite some time to kick on.

Dane Swan minus his explosiveness and kicking length. I think he is more likely to be a Luke Ball type of player.

[Ghost Dog]

Outstanding career but a self absorbed dickhead from the moment he established himself as a senior footballer to even 4 years past his retirement.

The no dickhead policy is something most clubs try and follow but if you are in the top 4 sides and have an aging list but still have the chance to acquire someone like Akermanis at a reasonable price then it really tests the true intent of the policy.

I've never seen it as a genuine policy. It was our preferred position that certainly allowed the likes of Akermanis and Hall to be acquired along they way.

Typically people get sacked for breaking policies but our so called policy had some give in it whenever it was needed.

Only in front of the Mic. To those of us who met him, he seemed half decent enough. As a few of us have been saying on the forum, if the club is lauding its 'teacher' so highly, it's time he got thrown a few challenges. It would have been very interesting to see how BMAC would have handled Jason. Perhaps they might have bonded in a ranga kind of fashion. Or clashed badly. Either way I think the club could learn a lot about the Akermanis car wreck, if it could bring itself to slow down the replay.

Aker to this day remains popular with a section of the Bulldog community, and not all of us, understanding as we do that Jason has some issues, think the club handled the situation that well.

[azabob]

Only in front of the Mic. To those of us who met him, he seemed half decent enough. As a few of us have been saying on the forum, if the club is lauding its 'teacher' so highly, it's time he got thrown a few challenges..

Thrown a few challenges? I think BMAC has had his fair of challenges the last two years.

[Ghost Dog]

Thrown a few challenges? I think BMAC has had his fair of challenges the last two years.

What I meant was someone other clubs are going to overlook for character reasons.

[SPower]

Lets just stick to the Swannies No Dickhead Policy !!!!!!!!!

[Ghost Dog]

Lets just stick to the Swannies No Dickhead Policy !!!!!!!!!

Can we afford to be so inflexible? We took on Barry Hall, and it worked didn't it?
I'm not saying Barry was a d** ( lord no ), but there were huge concerns over his temper coming in. Each game early on, I was just waiting for that horrific Staker left jab to rear its head. It was a gamble but it paid off. Dogs fans chanting ' We're not worthy!' at the NAB final.:D

[Remi Moses]

His ability to just find the ball and continually get himself in the right positions reading the game for starters, from what I've been told his leadership skills for a young bloke are also a standout.

Been disappointing this season . Your dead right on his attributes though.
I think some people clearly didn't watch any of his games last season.:eek:
I just wish some people would let our players get comfortable in their own skin before writing of their career.

[jeemak]

So, what about Dalrymple hey?

I really can't believe this thread has turned into a comparison of "no dickheads" policies between two coaches.

Why the *!*!*!*! is Aker even being mentioned in any capacity in this thread?

Why is Barry Hall - just about the biggest on-field dickhead the game has ever seen in the last ten years - even mentioned in this thread?

How anybody can question the Wallis selection is beyond me. The guy's completing his third year in the system, and after a very good year last year his true development as a footballer will most likely be seen when he's 24, not 21.

Each of Howard and Tutt were chosen on clear directives from the club. Tutt is probably a chance, while Howard after having his first year ruined by injury needs to show something now.

Now that we're in a rebuild mode, the recruiting seems to have been directed towards talent acquisition, and I think Dalrymple has a very good eye for talent.

[Mofra]

How anybody can question the Wallis selection is beyond me. The guy's completing his third year in the system, and after a very good year last year his true development as a footballer will most likely be seen when he's 24, not 21.
We are a very impatient lot - how were Daniel Cross and Matty Boyd Tracking at age 21?

[bulldogtragic]

We are a very impatient lot - how were Daniel Cross and Matty Boyd Tracking at age 21?
Cross was a former pick 56, played got a rising star nod at 21. Played 12 games, inc. a couple of blinders against Hawthorn and Port.

Boyd went from VFL at age 20 to rookie draftee and debutant at 21. Played 8 games.

Wallis was pick 22, played 12 games so far in 2013.

So the comparison you draw is fair. I think the counter comparison is this year, to last year to see how he is developing:

Rising Star Years Statistical Rankings 2012

Ranked 1st among rising stars in Clearances Per Game in 2012
Ranked 2nd among rising stars in Total Handballs in 2012
Ranked 2nd among rising stars in Total Disposals in 2012
Ranked 2nd among rising stars in Total Tackles in 2012
Ranked 2nd among rising stars in Total Supercoach Score in 2012
Ranked 2nd among rising stars in Total Dreamteam Score in 2012
Ranked 1st among rising stars in Total Contested Possessions in 2012
Ranked 4th among rising stars in Total Uncontested Possessions in 2012
Ranked 2nd among rising stars in Total Effective Disposals in 2012
Ranked 1st among rising stars in Total Clearances in 2012
Ranked 2nd among rising stars in Handballs Per Game in 2012
Ranked 2nd among rising stars in Disposals Per Game in 2012
Ranked 4th among rising stars in Tackles Per Game in 2012
Ranked 2nd among rising stars in Supercoach Score Per Game in 2012
Ranked 2nd among rising stars in Dreamteam Score Per Game in 2012
Ranked 1st among rising stars in Contested Possessions Per Game in 2012
Ranked 2nd among rising stars in Effective Disposals Per Game in 2012


Hardly time to trade him, but this year is a long way back from last.

[Ghost Dog]

So, what about Dalrymple hey?

I really can't believe this thread has turned into a comparison of "no dickheads" policies between two coaches.

Why the *!*!*!*! is Aker even being mentioned in any capacity in this thread?

Why is Barry Hall - just about the biggest on-field dickhead the game has ever seen in the last ten years - even mentioned in this thread?

How anybody can question the Wallis selection is beyond me. The guy's completing his third year in the system, and after a very good year last year his true development as a footballer will most likely be seen when he's 24, not 21.

Each of Howard and Tutt were chosen on clear directives from the club. Tutt is probably a chance, while Howard after having his first year ruined by injury needs to show something now.

Now that we're in a rebuild mode, the recruiting seems to have been directed towards talent acquisition, and I think Dalrymple has a very good eye for talent.

Wallis really tries very hard. I am confident he can make up for every deficiency in his game, save pace. Matty Boyd, Tony Liberatore and Daniel Cross were and are never very quick, yet still did and are doing good things.

[Mofra]

Wallis really tries very hard. I am confident he can make up for every deficiency in his game, save pace. But Matty Boyd, Tony Liberatore and Daniel Cross were and are never very quick, yet still did and are doing good things.
Crossy is the slowest on our list and doesn't have a huge kick - but he's super-committed, bleeds red white and blue and his professionalism off the field is rumoured to be extraordinary.

Wallis seems similar to me.

[bornadog]

Crossy is the slowest on our list and doesn't have a huge kick - but he's super-committed, bleeds red white and blue and his professionalism off the field is rumoured to be extraordinary.

Wallis seems similar to me.

I think Dalrmple did the right thing to pick Wallis, he was an outstanding junior, picked up 40 disposals in the TAC GF. He is still young and has lot to learn, but I am confident he will make it.

[GVGjr]

I think Dalrmple did the right thing to pick Wallis, he was an outstanding junior, picked up 40 disposals in the TAC GF. He is still young and has lot to learn, but I am confident he will make it.

Same here. A bit of work to do but he isn't afraid of it.

[boydogs]

Crossy is the slowest on our list and doesn't have a huge kick - but he's super-committed, bleeds red white and blue and his professionalism off the field is rumoured to be extraordinary.

Wallis seems similar to me.

This is what stands out to me, Wallis has that commitment to the club that would make him an outstanding leader and trainer. Boyd & Cross seem like good comparisons, in that they are not particularly skilled but were elite in the AFL in their prime based on their workrate and attack on the ball.

[Ghost Dog]

In terms of team, you need players who can play through injuries. I think this is the unsung heroism of players like Brad, Granty and West. They had an incredible ability to play through injury, and they needed to. We had many periods where our depth was tested.
Mitch Wallis is one player I think is cut from the same cloth. He has the maturity to keep going when things are not going his way or the team's.

[Hot_Doggies]

Crossy is the slowest on our list and doesn't have a huge kick - but he's super-committed, bleeds red white and blue and his professionalism off the field is rumoured to be extraordinary.

Wallis seems similar to me.

Not saying Wallis is super fast, but didn't he and Libba jnr both go under 3secs for 20mtres at draft camp?

[stefoid]

It's going to be difficult to compare Stringer to that bunch, I really don't see him developing into an inside mid for a long time (if ever), more a high forward that can play tall and short. Macrae vs Mayes will be intresting to watch in coming years, Mayes having a fantastic debut season as is Macrae, Jackson coming from a little further back body-wise.

Not comparing positions but just if he turns out to be a great player. Theres no reason not to expect a great players from both our picks.

[jeemak]

Not saying Wallis is super fast, but didn't he and Libba jnr both go under 3secs for 20mtres at draft camp?

Not sure beating the sub-3 second over 20m is much other than a rounded off top line barometer for the most part. I recon there'd be a lot of players between 2.9 to 2.99 seconds, though I'd happily be proved incorrect with some data.

Here's some summary numbers:

http://www.topendsports.com/sport/afl/testing-draft-results-2010.htm

Wallis exceptionally good in efficiency by hand and agility, while Liberatore seemed to be excellent in kicking efficiency.

The former last year really did provide a glimpse that his disposal by hand may become elite. Sometimes I'm staggered by how easily and quickly he can dish it off.

[LostDoggy]

I think Dalrmple did the right thing to pick Wallis, he was an outstanding junior, picked up 40 disposals in the TAC GF. He is still young and has lot to learn, but I am confident he will make it.

He will make it, he will be a gun and he will be a leader at the dogs.

[LostDoggy]

Too early to judge Wallis. Libber has gone past him but all players aren't the same.

[comrade]

Too early to judge Wallis. Libber has gone past him but all players aren't the same.

To be fair, Libba has just about gone past every other midfielder his age, too :D

[Go_Dogs]

To be fair, Libba has just about gone past every other midfielder his age, too :D

He sure has.

I wonder if we'd be having this conversation about Wallis if their draft order had been the other way around?

[bornadog]

To be fair, Libba has just about gone past every other midfielder his age, too :D

Plays his 50th today.

[LostDoggy]

Well done Simon. Perhaps he suffered a little in his first year or so of wanting to stretch the diamond in the rough judgements of players - enough said about that.

Stringer as a highly talented, but risky choice with his long term leg injury question, has proven to be a point of difference with swagger and smarts to rival Franklin. Macrae a late bolter, but the selection has been more than justified by his ball-finding ability. Bontempelli, another late season bolter, but a modern footballing prototype who's just won the MVP Best First Year Player.

More than happy for Simon to move for a Marchbank/Laverde type potentially assuming Wright/Petracca are gone. Sure it's theoretically easier to pick talent with low picks, but Simons' long term focus/ready talent mix is in tune at the moment.

[Scorlibo]

The clearly good picks:

2010 - Dahlhaus, Johannisen
2011 - Smith, Dickson, Campbell
2012 - Stringer, Macrae, Hrovat
2013 - Honeychurch, Bontempelli

There have been some misses too, and some players who may yet become good contributors. All in all it's a consistent stream of talent coming into the side, which is great to see.

[Bulldog Revolution]

The clearly good picks:

2012 - Stringer, Macrae, Hrovat



I would add Hunter to that also. I think we are going to look back at the 2012 draft as a brilliant draft for us - hopefully the build towards our next flag.

[jeemak]

I would add Hunter to that also. I think we are going to look back at the 2012 draft as a brilliant draft for us - hopefully the build towards our next flag.

I'd love for Talia to become part of that list in the coming 12-24 months, alongside Fletch.

[LostDoggy]

Hunter's not really a pick though as a F/S.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I'd love for Talia to become part of that list in the coming 12-24 months, alongside Fletch.

I really rate Fletch as a defender. He has the smarts and composure to make it as a KPD. Not the most skilled but he will get the job done as a shutdown defender IMO

[lemmon]

Has been very good so far but I hope he doesn't suffer from the same fatal flaw as Clayton- we're yet to see him snaffle a genuine key position player. Admittedly he has had few opportunities but it's something we need to address for the balance of the side

[Murphy'sLore]

Has been very good so far but I hope he doesn't suffer from the same fatal flaw as Clayton- we're yet to see him snaffle a genuine key position player. Admittedly he has had few opportunities but it's something we need to address for the balance of the side

I'm sure he is acutely aware of that, as is every journalist, pundit, casual observer, and WOOfer in Melbourne.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I'm sure he is acutely aware of that, as is every journalist, pundit, casual observer, and WOOfer in Melbourne.

To date i can think of Carlisle and Brown as KPF being passed on. Did he do the 09 draft?

[mjp]

The clearly good picks:

2011 - Smith, Dickson, Campbell
.

Disagree on 2011 players...all of them!

[LostDoggy]

To date i can think of Carlisle and Brown as KPF being passed on. Did he do the 09 draft?

http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?12135-Rate-Simon-Dalrymple&p=334607#post334607

[chef]

Disagree on 2011 players...all of them!

Even Smith?

If it wasn't for injury he'd be a nailed on part of our best 22.

[jeemak]

To date i can think of Carlisle and Brown as KPF being passed on. Did he do the 09 draft?

Yep, he did.

He's clearly gotten better since then!

[bulldogsthru&thru]

http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?12135-Rate-Simon-Dalrymple&p=334607#post334607

Cheers. Sorry should have read the OP first.

Each year he seems to get better!

[jeemak]

Even Smith?

If it wasn't for injury he'd be a nailed on part of our best 22.

Smith would be best 22 for sure though I ask one question:

Would Hawthorn draft or have such an appalling kick in their best 22?

[chef]

Smith would be best 22 for sure though I ask one question:

Would Hawthorn draft or have such an appalling kick in their best 22?

Probably not, but Sydney/Freo/Port would for his style of game IMO.

[Bulldog4life]

Smith would be best 22 for sure though I ask one question:

Would Hawthorn draft or have such an appalling kick in their best 22?

For all his appalling kicks he is a bloody good shot for goal. I wish a lot of other players were as good.

[Remi Moses]

Smith would be best 22 for sure though I ask one question:

Would Hawthorn draft or have such an appalling kick in their best 22?

Probably not . Wasn't darymple overruled with that selection?

[chef]

Probably not . Wasn't darymple overruled with that selection?

Not really, he was told what sort of player Macca wanted. It came down to a choice between Kerridge(who ended up at Adelaide) and Smith with Simon deciding on the latter.

[stefoid]

But I remember hearing he wanted the skilled half forward who went to Freo.

[jeemak]

Crozier?

[azabob]

But I remember hearing he wanted the skilled half forward who went to Freo.


Crozier?

Yes. Or is that who woof wanted?

[chef]

Yes. Or is that who woof wanted?

I always thought it was a WOOF thing, Macca wanted big bodied contested beasts.

[Greystache]

Yes. Or is that who woof wanted?

Either way he's no good. We got a far better player.

[lemmon]

Not really, he was told what sort of player Macca wanted. It came down to a choice between Kerridge(who ended up at Adelaide) and Smith with Simon deciding on the latter.

I'm a Smith fan but Kerridge is a beautiful kick of the footy isn't he? I think I'm thinking of the right bloke

[chef]

I'm a Smith fan but Kerride is a beautiful kick of the footy isn't he? I think I'm thinking of the right bloke

Yeah, Kerridge is good kick and a handy player.

[mjp]

Even Smith?

If it wasn't for injury he'd be a nailed on part of our best 22.

He can't kick chef. He was a first round pick and he absolutely butchers it. And I am pretty certain the 2x knee recons are not going to help improve it.

Is his ferocious attack on the ball admirable? Of course it is. That's where it ends for me though.

[mjp]

Either way he's no good. We got a far better player.

I will never understand this.

A couple of weeks back he kicked 3 against Geelong in what was basically a match winning performance. I am biased as I just love the things that Crozier can do whereas I wonder what Smith does that is 'different' to the rest of our midfield. Not getting a regular game in that Fremantle midfield is not an embarrassment - they are good - and it is not as if there are any small forward spots up for grabs in that team. What position would Smith play in that team?

Anyway, why mention the war. I like Smith just fine but unless he can fix his kicking (and propensity for blowing knee ligaments) then suggesting he is a better player than Crozier is folly.

[chef]

He can't kick chef. He was a first round pick and he absolutely butchers it. And I am pretty certain the 2x knee recons are not going to help improve it.

Is his ferocious attack on the ball admirable? Of course it is. That's where it ends for me though.

Fair enough. I'm worried how he'll come back from two knees, surely has to affect his agility which was a strength of his.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I will never understand this.

A couple of weeks back he kicked 3 against Geelong in what was basically a match winning performance. I am biased as I just love the things that Crozier can do whereas I wonder what Smith does that is 'different' to the rest of our midfield. Not getting a regular game in that Fremantle midfield is not an embarrassment - they are good - and it is not as if there are any small forward spots up for grabs in that team. What position would Smith play in that team?

Anyway, why mention the war. I like Smith just fine but unless he can fix his kicking (and propensity for blowing knee ligaments) then suggesting he is a better player than Crozier is folly.

Smith is a far better player than Crozier. Yes, he played well v Geelong but he's only had one or two good games so far in his career. At this stage, he's purely a forward - doesn't have the body/endurance/intensity for midfield. He is a beautiful kick of the footy though.

Smith's kicking needs to improve but I don't think it's as bad as what it's made out to be. It's just that when he butchers a ball per game, it'll look absolutely terrible, but I don't think he's a turnover merchant. The positives are that Smith can kick goals - this much is proven - so he can rest forward, he can play defensive roles in the midfield and he's also solid around clearances (particularly in terms of clearing space for others). He's a competitive beast with a huge heart.

Prior to injuring his knee again, Smith was absolutely dominating VFL footy. Dominating. The injury comes at a bad time because it looked like he could genuinely become a big time player at AFL level in 2015. It's a huge blow and you're right that two knees puts his career in jeopardy, but that's not his fault if it doesn't work out.

I was skeptical at the time but Smith is a superior player to Crozier in every aspect bar disposal (which IMO is overstated, especially when you factor in his goal kicking nous).

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Fair enough. I'm worried how he'll come back from two knees, surely has to affect his agility which was a strength of his.

You would think so, but a few positives are that he has a very low centre of gravity which typically helps players coming back from serious knee injuries in terms of mobility/agility (eg. Libba) and he's professional in his recovery/an absolute animal on the track.

He won't leave a stone unturned.

[mjp]

I was skeptical at the time but Smith is a superior player to Crozier in every aspect bar disposal (which IMO is overstated, especially when you factor in his goal kicking nous).

Disagree.

[Greystache]

I will never understand this.

A couple of weeks back he kicked 3 against Geelong in what was basically a match winning performance. I am biased as I just love the things that Crozier can do whereas I wonder what Smith does that is 'different' to the rest of our midfield. Not getting a regular game in that Fremantle midfield is not an embarrassment - they are good - and it is not as if there are any small forward spots up for grabs in that team. What position would Smith play in that team?

Anyway, why mention the war. I like Smith just fine but unless he can fix his kicking (and propensity for blowing knee ligaments) then suggesting he is a better player than Crozier is folly.

Crozier (when he can get a game) averages 10 possessions and less than a goal a game. There is nothing differentiating him from 50 other generic forward/mids and I'd suggest being out of contract next year would need a big year to avoid being delisted.

Smith can win the ball himself first and foremost and of the two I know who I'd prefer kicking for goal. Smith could play the same role at Fremantle but actually lay tackles, and in a better side kick more goals. Plus he can go through the midfield, and play a defensive role, none of which Crozier can do.

[Maddog37]

Too early to tell yet about Smith v Crozier. Very different players anyway.

[mjp]

Crozier (when he can get a game) averages 10 possessions and less than a goal a game. There is nothing differentiating him from 50 other generic forward/mids and I'd suggest being out of contract next year would need a big year to avoid being delisted.

Smith can win the ball himself first and foremost and of the two I know who I'd prefer kicking for goal. Smith could play the same role at Fremantle but actually lay tackles, and in a better side kick more goals. Plus he can go through the midfield, and play a defensive role, none of which Crozier can do.

Fremantle already have smith - his name is Matt De Boer. Hard at it, can kick a goal (tick), defensive forward (tick), can play as a midfield tagger (tick), can't kick (tick), supporters love him (tick), struggles to get a game in a good side...we can go back and forth forever on this but creative players who can create goals for themselves and their team-mates are worth gold. Our side is chock full of inside players with grunt but we collectively lack spread, vision and the ability to kick the ball inside 50m. Crozier would have played 40+ games by now if he was wearing a dogs (or saints, or tigers etc) jumper which would give us a better read on where he is at.

[Happy Days]

Fremantle already have smith - his name is Matt De Boer. Hard at it, can kick a goal (tick), defensive forward (tick), can play as a midfield tagger (tick), can't kick (tick), supporters love him (tick), struggles to get a game in a good side...we can go back and forth forever on this but creative players who can create goals for themselves and their team-mates are worth gold. Our side is chock full of inside players with grunt but we collectively lack spread, vision and the ability to kick the ball inside 50m. Crozier would have played 40+ games by now if he was wearing a dogs (or saints, or tigers etc) jumper which would give us a better read on where he is at.

I'd pick De Boer ahead of Crozier though. And Smith ahead of De Boer. If Smith is a bad kick then De Boer is an atrocious one, and he absolutely can't kick for goal like Clay can.

Is our team really "full" of Smith's type? Aside from Liberatore who really satiates our need for inside ball? Macrae and Bont are mainly outside players, Boyd is slipping, Griffen is both but is better as a reciever (because of his great kicking not because of any weakness), Wallis is more defensive, Picken is an outside stopper, anyone else? Sydney have at least 3 guys in their midfield rotation that can...ahem, crack in and win football. Contrary to popular belief, we aren't stacked with "inside ball animals"; Jong played serious games this year (!). TBB is right too, disposal deficiencies can be marginalised by sensible decision making, and it would be ridiculous to think that Smith is overtly poor in this area, or at least won't improve with playing time.

Besides, anyone think that Smith as a full time flanker wouldn't kick more goals than Crozier?

Retrospective drafting is stupid anyway.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Fremantle already have smith - his name is Matt De Boer. Hard at it, can kick a goal (tick), defensive forward (tick), can play as a midfield tagger (tick), can't kick (tick), supporters love him (tick), struggles to get a game in a good side...we can go back and forth forever on this but creative players who can create goals for themselves and their team-mates are worth gold. Our side is chock full of inside players with grunt but we collectively lack spread, vision and the ability to kick the ball inside 50m. Crozier would have played 40+ games by now if he was wearing a dogs (or saints, or tigers etc) jumper which would give us a better read on where he is at.

Surprised you'd bring De Boer into discussions - he's purely a defensive player who kicks the odd goal. Smith is creative and dangerous when forward, as well as being able to apply the necessary defensive traits. I think you overrate Crozier - if he was that good, he'd simply have played more footy and his form in the seniors is a testament to this, and you underrate Smith who has been 'off the radar' due to his two knee injuries.

It is a myth to suggest 'he would have played 40 games with us' because we're lower on the ladder. Good players play games in any side - look at Hartung at Hawthorn (prior to injury), Anderson last year for Hawthorn (injured this year) and on the contrary look at Michie from Fremantle, he played 4? games for Melbourne this season.

[w3design]

2009 was a failure.

However he has nailed the last few draft.

[Bulldog4life]

Smith showed by his 4 goals in his first game that he could be a special player. I still think he will be. I don't think Crozier will be but who really knows.

[mjp]

Surprised you'd bring De Boer into discussions - he's purely a defensive player who kicks the odd goal. Smith is creative and dangerous when forward, as well as being able to apply the necessary defensive traits. I think you overrate Crozier - if he was that good, he'd simply have played more footy and his form in the seniors is a testament to this, and you underrate Smith who has been 'off the radar' due to his two knee injuries.

It is a myth to suggest 'he would have played 40 games with us' because we're lower on the ladder. Good players play games in any side - look at Hartung at Hawthorn (prior to injury), Anderson last year for Hawthorn (injured this year) and on the contrary look at Michie from Fremantle, he played 4? games for Melbourne this season.

Can I say that you under-rate Crozier and over-rate Smith?

Not sure how comparing Michie - who couldn't / can't play - with anyone helps? Alex Silvagni is also on the Dockers list and is a really good defender but he has hardly played at Freo either...he would be the best key back on our list and would play every week. Good players DONT always get a game. Pretty sure Will Langford has shown he is a good player this year at Hawthorn - as has Angus Litherland - yet both were at the club for FOUR YEARS before getting a game. Good players don't always get a game. In Hudson's last year at our club, Minson's form at Willi was pretty darned good but he still couldn't crack a game (maybe it was Hudson's second last year, who can remember). Minson has turned out to be OK and even made an AA side - the fact he was playing 2's was not a blight on his ability. Every case is different and I think the jury is out on the 'Jed Anderson is a good player' train as well...

As for form in the seniors - it isn't that easy. When every game you play has you on a knifes edge, playing peripheral roles, subbed in/out etc it is hard to settle and be part of it.

As an aside, I also would pick Smith ahead of De Boer but for me at least it would be a conversation...as for saying that De Boer is a purely defensive player, I am guess you haven't seen much of his work at state league level but the role he plays for Lyon in the senior team is one he plays to stay in the team...don't assume that is all he can do. His numbers per game (possessions AND goals) are almost an exact replica of Smiths (14 touches and .5 of a goal) but no point letting the reality of numbers get in the way of the conversation.

Crozier has the highest goal per game average of the 3 by the way. But again...

[Sedat]

Ever since that draft, I've kept a close eye on both Crozier and Smith. It is difficult to compare the two because they really are chalk and cheese. Smith is tracking well, injuries notwithstanding, but Crozier has made significant strides this season. He will never be a massive possession getter but then neither does Stephen Hill. However he is a beautiful kick, a smart decision maker and impacts positively with regard to score involvements. I think he has more upside than Smith - quite surprised by the lack of rating he has. I guess being in Freo he is out of sight out of mind somewhat.

The Crozier discussion actually reinforces Dalrymple's credentials and keen eye for talent. He would have picked Crozier if best available was the strategy - he selected Smith as best available type as requested by the coach.

[stefoid]

2009 was a failure.

However he has nailed the last few draft.

Not so much for the failure of the players we did pick but for the success of the ones we didn't - we could have picked literally anyone after howard and been better off on a needs OR best available policy. Of course we could have picked Carlisle. But we went for players that could kick - OK, a strategy I also agree with: addressing needs with decent picks. Pittard and Menzel both 200 gamers (barring injuries) that can kick were selected directly after Howard. Port and Geelong must have been high-fiving under each other under the table.

Tutt was seen as a rookie pick because he was basically a softball player with a good leg.

I don't mind a money ball approach of identifying under-appreciated skills and thereby getting effective players at bargain prices, but we identified kicking and then overpaid massively.

[w3design]

When you look at Dalrymples performance to date, the last 2 years Macrae, Stringer and Bontempelli top class. Add Dahl as a rookie and father sons Lbba, Waliis and Hunter and it looks great.

outside of this though Hrovat and Honey could be very good players, the rest either won't make it or have a lot to improve. The lack of any KPP's and I cannot see how his performance is any more than a basic pass

[The Doctor]

Dalrymple performance analysis here

http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?13225-Simon-Dalrymple-Performance-Analysis&highlight=dalrymple

[Remi Moses]

When you look at Dalrymples performance to date, the last 2 years Macrae, Stringer and Bontempelli top class. Add Dahl as a rookie and father sons Lbba, Waliis and Hunter and it looks great.

outside of this though Hrovat and Honey could be very good players, the rest either won't make it or have a lot to improve. The lack of any KPP's and I cannot see how his performance is any more than a basic pass
The not getting Carlisle or Black 09 draft is killing us.
The non career of Tom Williams has also hurt big time.
Very difficult job in a heavily compromised era to pick the eyes out of the draft.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Can I say that you under-rate Crozier and over-rate Smith?

Not sure how comparing Michie - who couldn't / can't play - with anyone helps? Alex Silvagni is also on the Dockers list and is a really good defender but he has hardly played at Freo either...he would be the best key back on our list and would play every week. Good players DONT always get a game. Pretty sure Will Langford has shown he is a good player this year at Hawthorn - as has Angus Litherland - yet both were at the club for FOUR YEARS before getting a game. Good players don't always get a game. In Hudson's last year at our club, Minson's form at Willi was pretty darned good but he still couldn't crack a game (maybe it was Hudson's second last year, who can remember). Minson has turned out to be OK and even made an AA side - the fact he was playing 2's was not a blight on his ability. Every case is different and I think the jury is out on the 'Jed Anderson is a good player' train as well...

As for form in the seniors - it isn't that easy. When every game you play has you on a knifes edge, playing peripheral roles, subbed in/out etc it is hard to settle and be part of it.

As an aside, I also would pick Smith ahead of De Boer but for me at least it would be a conversation...as for saying that De Boer is a purely defensive player, I am guess you haven't seen much of his work at state league level but the role he plays for Lyon in the senior team is one he plays to stay in the team...don't assume that is all he can do. His numbers per game (possessions AND goals) are almost an exact replica of Smiths (14 touches and .5 of a goal) but no point letting the reality of numbers get in the way of the conversation.

Crozier has the highest goal per game average of the 3 by the way. But again...

As you aptly said previously, disagree.

[mjp]

As you aptly said previously, disagree.
With what part?

That crozier averages more goals per game (he does) or that silvagni/Langford etc are good players who took several years to establish themselves in good sides (they are and they did). Let's revisit this at the end of 2015 and see where both players are at.

[F'scary]

Dalrymple performance analysis here

http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?13225-Simon-Dalrymple-Performance-Analysis&highlight=dalrymple

This is the best analysis I have seen. The only point I would dispute is Tom Campbell, he may have a future.

Putting the F/S's aside (a correct position for analysis, I think) and the coach's late round choices (another good point of analysis), Dalrymple has only selected about 8 good players in about 25 picks (and that is probably generous).

Verdict: Fail.

[Remi Moses]

Gee hard taskmaster^^
The difficulty in a compromised era should be taken into account

[F'scary]

Gee hard taskmaster^^
The difficulty in a compromised era should be taken into account

Fair point.

[Maddog37]

You also need to actively choose the father son players though so to completely disregard them is unfair.

[Remi Moses]

You also need to actively choose the father son players though so to completely disregard them is unfair.

Exactly right. Also factor in the type and actual player is most likely taken By GWS or Goldcoast .

[LongWait]

Fremantle already have smith - his name is Matt De Boer. Hard at it, can kick a goal (tick), defensive forward (tick), can play as a midfield tagger (tick), can't kick (tick), supporters love him (tick), struggles to get a game in a good side...we can go back and forth forever on this but creative players who can create goals for themselves and their team-mates are worth gold. Our side is chock full of inside players with grunt but we collectively lack spread, vision and the ability to kick the ball inside 50m. Crozier would have played 40+ games by now if he was wearing a dogs (or saints, or tigers etc) jumper which would give us a better read on where he is at.

Does Crozier have elite ability to spread and kick the ball inside 50? I'd say no, so he is unlikely to have displaced Smith in our side and isn't the player you claim we should be looking for. Smith is better credentialed thus far than Crozier and would be a lock in our side but for his wretched run with injuries.

Dalrymple has performed at better than a pass and hasn't botched any of our top 10 picks - quite the opposite in fact. He also resisted the temptation to select Dayle Garlett with pick 5 or 6 in 2012. Imagine the reviews he would get on here if he'd done that....

[stefoid]

You also need to actively choose the father son players though so to completely disregard them is unfair.

playing devils advocate, we picked Wallis before Libba ;)

[bornadog]

playing devils advocate, we picked Wallis before Libba ;)

Initially Wallis was considered the better player but soon the MC realised Libba was going to be the better of the two.

[GVGjr]

Initially Wallis was considered the better player but soon the MC realised Libba was going to be the better of the two.

For what it's worth, I talked to a couple of our recruiters that year and they were leaning strongly towards Liberatore being the better player.

[F'scary]

Initially Wallis was considered the better player but soon the MC realised Libba was going to be the better of the two.

Tell me, someone, I can't remember, who used what pick to compel us to use our pick 22 for Wallis? I'm not knocking Wallis - he is getting there.

[chef]

Tell me, someone, I can't remember, who used what pick to compel us to use our pick 22 for Wallis? I'm not knocking Wallis - he is getting there.

Off the top of my head Port bid for Wallis and Sydney bid for Libba.

[Scorlibo]

For what it's worth, I talked to a couple of our recruiters that year and they were leaning strongly towards Liberatore being the better player.

We can only speculate, but I think Libba would have been top ten with a bullet and Wally a first rounder. My impression at the time was that they knew Wally to perhaps be a little bit more mature and less likely to get ahead of himself, so they put him up for pick 22.

[boydogs]

Off the top of my head Port bid for Wallis and Sydney bid for Libba.

With 16 & 40, prior to our 22 & 41

[chef]

We can only speculate, but I think Libba would have been top ten with a bullet and Wally a first rounder. My impression at the time was that they knew Wally to perhaps be a little bit more mature and less likely to get ahead of himself, so they put him up for pick 22.

Had nothing to do with us to which order we drafted them, it depended on the other clubs bidding. Port bid pick 16 for Wallis and Sydney bid 40 for Libba. So we had to use 22 on Mitch and 41 on Tom.

[F'scary]

Tell me, someone, I can't remember, who used what pick to compel us to use our pick 22 for Wallis? I'm not knocking Wallis - he is getting there.


Off the top of my head Port bid for Wallis and Sydney bid for Libba.


With 16 & 40, prior to our 22 & 41

thanks chef & gogriff. Interesting given how he has blossomed that Libba only attracted a bid one pick higher than our next one.

[Scorlibo]

Had nothing to do with us to which order we drafted them, it depended on the other clubs bidding. Port bid pick 16 for Wallis and Sydney bid 40 for Libba. So we had to use 22 on Mitch and 41 on Tom.


thanks chef & gogriff. Interesting given how he has blossomed that Libba only attracted a bid one pick higher than our next one.

Incorrect. After Wallis was put up for auction first (and as far as I'm aware, we were able to decide the order in which they were put up) and Port bid for him, we had to use our first pick on him. Then Sydney put in a token bid for Liberatore, so that we would have to use our second rounder. There was no point in anyone else bidding on Libba, it was a forgone conclusion that we would take him, if he was auctioned first we would have been using our first rounder on him. Instead we put Wallis up first.

[azabob]

Incorrect. After Wallis was put up for auction first (and as far as I'm aware, we were able to decide the order in which they were put up) and Port bid for him, we had to use our first pick on him. Then Sydney put in a token bid for Liberatore, so that we would have to use our second rounder. There was no point in anyone else bidding on Libba, it was a forgone conclusion that we would take him, if he was auctioned first we would have been using our first rounder on him. Instead we put Wallis up first.

I agree with Chef on the process.

Why would we put Wallis up for "auction" before another club bid on him?

[chef]

Incorrect. After Wallis was put up for auction first (and as far as I'm aware, we were able to decide the order in which they were put up) and Port bid for him, we had to use our first pick on him. Then Sydney put in a token bid for Liberatore, so that we would have to use our second rounder. There was no point in anyone else bidding on Libba, it was a forgone conclusion that we would take him, if he was auctioned first we would have been using our first rounder on him. Instead we put Wallis up first.

I dont think that's correct.

When both players were put up they started at pick 1 and went through every pick and club in order until someone bid, Port for Wallis at 16 and Sydney for Libba at 40. There was no auction.


So the only way we would have had to take Libba first was if a club with one of the first 15 picks had bid for him.

[The Doctor]

For what it's worth, I talked to a couple of our recruiters that year and they were leaning strongly towards Liberatore being the better player.

Libba was easily the better player

[Scorlibo]

I agree with Chef on the process.

Why would we put Wallis up for "auction" before another club bid on him?

Each player is dealt with on an individual basis, one at a time.


I dont think that's correct.

When both players were put up they started at pick 1 and went through every pick and club in order until someone bid, Port for Wallis at 16 and Sydney for Libba at 40. There was no auction.


So the only way we would have had to take Libba first was if a club with one of the first 15 picks had bid for him.

Bidding process, auction - whatever you want to call it. Players are put up one at a time. Wallis was dealt with before Libba, and by that time only our second rounder was on the table. Do you honestly think that Libba would have gone at pick 40 in an open market?

[chef]

Do you honestly think that Libba would have gone at pick 40 in an open market?
No I dont(but no knows for sure), but that's not the point of this disagreement which was you said we got to choose who we picked first. But we didn't get to choose as it was out of our hands.

[Scorlibo]

No I dont(but no knows for sure), but that's not the point of this disagreement which was you said we got to choose who we picked first. But we didn't get to choose as it was out of our hands.

Okay well then you may well be right on that point alone. My main point is that nothing can be taken out of the bidding process in terms of player value. Libba was more highly rated than Wallis.

[Go_Dogs]

Libba was easily the better player

My post on here after watching them in the U/18 Carnival stated the same.

It's irrelevant really, we got 2 10 year players and I'm stoked with both.

[comrade]

There was more hype around Wally at the time, based on his 40+ possessions in the TAC Cup GF.

[Twodogs]

IIRC the club was a little bit concerned that if they took Libba first it may have gone to his head a little. He was a very confident young man.

[ledge]

Problem is the higher you are in the draft the less money you get paid. So Mitch would have been on more money than Libba in the first two years.
So in effect a father/son pick can be disadvantaged.

[F'scary]

There was more hype around Wally at the time, based on his 40+ possessions in the TAC Cup GF.

My recollection too is that Wallis was the more touted player in the media. Which is not to say that insiders were not rating Pedro higher than Napoleon.

[LostDoggy]

My recollection too is that Wallis was the more touted player in the media. Which is not to say that insiders were not rating Pedro higher than Napoleon.

Nice:)