Lets Discuss - Ayce Cordy

[GVGjr]

Cordy was drafted the same year as Roughead and Jones and given his slight frame was always likely to struggle for senior games. His tally of just 19 senior games hasn't been a great return for the father son player.

Cordy has battled a number of injuries which has slowed his progress but the challenge he has is with the reduced interchange bench now means most 2nd ruckman have to be able to add a lot of value as a forward and unfortunately Cordy isn't a strong mark.

How do you see the 2014 season shaping up for Ayce? Can he become a regular senior footballer? Do we just have to be more patient with him?

Lets discuss.

[bulldogtragic]

The hype in draft year is a long way back. He is not a forward. Can he be a ruckman? Well he has 2 years to show us something. I pragmatist in me says I wouldn't put my money on him becoming a 200 games player, but the bulldog in me is hoping like hell he is the find of 2014. That said, I'll be watching Zaine more next year.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

He was incredibly fortunate to get a three year contract and he'll be even luckier if he's still on an AFL list after the 2015 season concludes.

The reality is he is not a natural forward, he's a poor mark, average kick, too slow and immobile and he's not strong enough to play ruck.

I know my assessment of Ayce is often frowned upon, but I've never seen anything in his game to make me believe he can even reach 50 games. His strength was his agility upon being drafted, he's been able to put on 20kgs which is a great effort, but he's lost his agility/mobility and yet still is a long way off being strong enough to compete.

Hope he proves me wrong.

[always right]

I always felt that Cordy was pushed into the team in our desperation to find a key forward. The beauty of our list now is we seem to have the makings of a functional forward line with plenty of tall forwards and we can allow Cordy to develop in our reserves. If he knocks down the door to the seniors with strong performances then that's great but I don't see us pushing him up before he's ready. Let's see what he can develop into without loading him with unrealistic expectations.

[ledge]

It's a hard one I watched one of his games last year and he showed glimpses but then dropped easy marks after doing all the hard work.
He has talent but whether he gets to show it consistently I am not sure.
Maybe Macca is looking at him being a back up ruck to take over from Minson, it took Minson a while to really come on.

[mighty_west]

He gets harshly judged because of his form up forward imo, he's just not a forward, he's a ruckman who'll eventually rest up forward and be a good one.

[Greystache]

He was incredibly fortunate to get a three year contract and he'll be even luckier if he's still on an AFL list after the 2015 season concludes.

The reality is he is not a natural forward, he's a poor mark, average kick, too slow and immobile and he's not strong enough to play ruck.

I know my assessment of Ayce is often frowned upon, but I've never seen anything in his game to make me believe he can even reach 50 games. His strength was his agility upon being drafted, he's been able to put on 20kgs which is a great effort, but he's lost his agility/mobility and yet still is a long way off being strong enough to compete.

Hope he proves me wrong.

Agree with you TBB.

He hasn't shown anything really at AFL or VFL level pre or post shoulder injuries. He's slow and unathletic, yet is still physically weak. I get that people say he's young and raw (which isn't really true) but you only need to look at Campbell to see the limited impact a young and raw big man with talent can have early in their career. Cordy is years off being able to do what Campbell can now.

Cordy makes me think of GVGjr's signature, but replace 3 with 7.

[jeemak]

Agree with you TBB.

He hasn't shown anything really at AFL or VFL level pre or post shoulder injuries. He's slow and unathletic, yet is still physically weak. I get that people say he's young and raw (which isn't really true) but you only need to look at Campbell to see the limited impact a young and raw big man with talent can have early in their career. Cordy is years off being able to do what Campbell can now.

Cordy makes me think of GVGjr's signature, but replace 3 with 7.

What sort of physique did Tom Campbell have at the age of 18? What's his injury history?

I really don't see how you can't admit that at the age of 23 and only having played 19 games that Ayce is still raw. Especially after his injury history and his need to pile on over 25% of his initial body weight to become an AFL sized player.

If he doesn't have a year of improvement in 2014 I'll struggle to continue to make excuses for him, but seriously, he's come from such a long way back it isn't funny. We knew this would be the case when we drafted him, and we knew where his development was when we gave him a three year deal.

While I agree he hasn't demonstrated a lot at senior level, I still don't think there's multiple years between what Ayce has shown and what Campbell has shown. After all, Campbell hasn't been a revelation, rather, he's just been stronger and a bit quicker in some instances when playing in a team that was playing better football than Ayce was in 2013.

I want Ayce to make it, though I accept there's a good chance he won't. It just really surprises me how unforgiving people are of his situation when there's clear evidence available to objectively comment on it.

[Greystache]

What sort of physique did Tom Campbell have at the age of 18? What's his injury history?

I really don't see how you can't admit that at the age of 23 and only having played 19 games that Ayce is still raw. Especially after his injury history and his need to pile on over 25% of his initial body weight to become an AFL sized player.

If he doesn't have a year of improvement in 2014 I'll struggle to continue to make excuses for him, but seriously, he's come from such a long way back it isn't funny. We knew this would be the case when we drafted him, and we knew where his development was when we gave him a three year deal.

While I agree he hasn't demonstrated a lot at senior level, I still don't think there's multiple years between what Ayce has shown and what Campbell has shown. After all, Campbell hasn't been a revelation, rather, he's just been stronger and a bit quicker in some instances when playing in a team that was playing better football than Ayce was in 2013.

I want Ayce to make it, though I accept there's a good chance he won't. It just really surprises me how unforgiving people are of his situation when there's clear evidence available to objectively comment on it.

Campbell was a solidly built kid who was considered too slow and lumbering to make it as a professional footballer, despite having several attributes that would make an AFL player. The trend is however to pick kids that need a shed load of bulk added to their frame and assume they'll still be athletes, rather than work to improve the athleticism of a big strong kid. One day it will change.

He's 23 and only played 19 games for a good reason, his output hasn't justified any more. Had he at least shown something that number would be much higher. He's really only had 2 of his 5 years at the club hampered by injury and only one was a complete write off. I've seen him play a lot of VFL footy and he looks just as far away at that level as he does at senior level.

What I struggle with is the assumption he's just going to come good, more often than not simply because he was talked up as a 17 year old. Personally if Cordy makes it at AFL level it's actually proof that you can take any tall kid who's a half a half decent athlete and make them a professional footballer so long as you're prepared to put 10 years into them. Eddie Prato was just as likely.

Campbell can mark, kick for goal, and impose himself physically. Ayce isn't close to being able to do any of those things and he's 2 years older and has been on the list 3 years longer.

[Remi Moses]

This is a toughy .
From a club perspective Ayce is going to be persevered with .
Ayce is coming from a mile back, I just wonder if he wasn't such a highly touted junior would he be delisted?
He's just not physically imposing enough as a key forward or ruckman.
2014 to state the bleedin' is massive for Ayce.

[FrediKanoute]

Hard to judge Cordy. The occasional glimpse and then back to mediocrity seems to be pat for thr course. Injuries haven't helped and the upheaval at Willy this year was also a problem.

That said a 3 year deal last year to me suggests the club (macca and Macca) see something in him and have a plan. Whilst the emergence of Grant and Campbell late in the year and recruitment of Crameri mean that forward spots will be hard to come by, the upside is that he may end up playing more of a #1 ruck role with Footscray.

Juries out. Has 2 years to prove he is worth a place on the list.

[LostDoggy]

Is it time to trial him down back rather than up forward? His marking is dubious at best; irrelevant whether that's hampered by the fused shoulders or not. Makes him a far less effective forward than Campbell. I agree his future is 2nd ruck if he has one. He needs a decent contribution in another position for that to work though. At least down back he can punch and the lack of stickiness won't be as big an issue. Maybe big roughy gets some forward time as well out of the deal?

I remain in the hopeful camp and I think we've seen glimpses. Time is ticking - needs a big preseason with lots of skills work.

[Mofra]

It's interesting that Campbell & Cordy get judged the same way on 2013 form - with Cordy getting some of the worst F50 delivery seen in recent times while Campbell had much, much better delivery on the back of our improvement in form.

Jury still out on both, despite Cordy having had so much of his development interrupted by injury.

[Go_Dogs]

He's an interesting player.

If he can develop his game to the level where we can get some David Hale type serviceability out of him for a few years when we're having a crack at a flag, that's a reasonable outcome and return on the investment.

I think the VFL side will help him a lot in that it should allow him to spend more time in the ruck and around the ground. He needs to add more strength to his frame and that's something that we should start to see now that he's got his body weight to the right level.

In my opinion the best game he played for the club was round 1 against Brisbane 2013 where he and Jones blocked for each other, created space and worked well in tandem.

It's an incredibly important year for him and I just hope he can have a lot of continuity with his football and show improvement with his ruck craft, strength and forward positioning.

[Dazza]

I don't rate Cordy at all.

Hasn't shown much at AFL or VFL level and let's be honest... 200cm players at VFL level tend to dominate. Think Peter Street or even Wade Skipper even though he was undersized.

His major problem is that he's lost his agility and he doesn't use his greatest strength (height and reach) to his advantage. He needs to put his arms in the air while trying to mark. Look at Campbell. He gets front spot and then gets his arms up. It makes it hard for defenders to not give away a free kick for chopping the arms.

I can't see him becoming a ruck either on exposed form.

I really do hope he proves me wrong but I just can't see it happening.

[Bulldog Joe]

I believe that Cordy has actually started to show something. His late season VFL form appears to have been much improved. I did see only 1 of those games (Northern Blues) but Ayce was moving much better and taking marks. His ruck work was also improved.

His stats from the other games also show a much better trend in form.

My understanding is he is contracted for the next 2 years and that time frame certainly is enough to find out if he can make it.

[GVGjr]

I believe that Cordy has actually started to show something. His late season VFL form appears to have been much improved. I did see only 1 of those games (Northern Blues) but Ayce was moving much better and taking marks. His ruck work was also improved.

His stats from the other games also show a much better trend in form.

My understanding is he is contracted for the next 2 years and that time frame certainly is enough to find out if he can make it.

I've always believed that drafting a ruckman is a requirement most years. That could mean having one on the rookie list but if you get the pick right it typically pays in a big way.

I'm warming to the idea of keeping Cordy on the list with the view that he specifically backs up Minson.

It's just one spot on the list and doesn't knock our list management position.

I know it's frustrating because he hasn't quite showed enough yet but we may as well see out the next two years and see what he can do.

[jeemak]

Campbell was a solidly built kid who was considered too slow and lumbering to make it as a professional footballer, despite having several attributes that would make an AFL player. The trend is however to pick kids that need a shed load of bulk added to their frame and assume they'll still be athletes, rather than work to improve the athleticism of a big strong kid. One day it will change.

He's 23 and only played 19 games for a good reason, his output hasn't justified any more. Had he at least shown something that number would be much higher. He's really only had 2 of his 5 years at the club hampered by injury and only one was a complete write off. I've seen him play a lot of VFL footy and he looks just as far away at that level as he does at senior level.

What I struggle with is the assumption he's just going to come good, more often than not simply because he was talked up as a 17 year old. Personally if Cordy makes it at AFL level it's actually proof that you can take any tall kid who's a half a half decent athlete and make them a professional footballer so long as you're prepared to put 10 years into them. Eddie Prato was just as likely.

Campbell can mark, kick for goal, and impose himself physically. Ayce isn't close to being able to do any of those things and he's 2 years older and has been on the list 3 years longer.


Thanks.

Agree that his output hasn't warranted more games at the senior level, I just think having two years wrecked by injury and having to increase your body weight by 25% to turn into an AFL shaped player would wreak havoc with how you played the game, if you came into it under the circumstances Ayce did. Whether he should have been picked when he was, I don't know. But, we were forced to use our first selection on him meaning we weren't the only club interested, or who thought he had serious potential.

I'll be concerned if after an uninterrupted preseason Ayce hasn't taken steps to become a consistent high performer at Footscray by mid-season.

It will be interesting to see if Campbell's improvement has a low ceiling. His work rate and will to impact a contest really impressed me late in the season and if as you say he was considered too slow by recruiters as a junior he must have done a lot of work in that area, as he seems to cover the ground well for his size and shape.


It's interesting that Campbell & Cordy get judged the same way on 2013 form - with Cordy getting some of the worst F50 delivery seen in recent times while Campbell had much, much better delivery on the back of our improvement in form.

Jury still out on both, despite Cordy having had so much of his development interrupted by injury.

Yes, Ayce played in one of the most disorganised and dysfunctional ball moving sides to play the game, and when Tom got his chance things were much easier for the forwards. That said, there were times Ayce just didn't impose himself on a pack situation physically or even look like he thought he should try to. That's not been an issue with Tom.

[LostDoggy]

My view is that if Ayce was not Brian Cordy's son, he would have been branded a spud and be gone already. There, I said it! I saw him play a couple of times in school games as a 16 or 17 year old and remember thinking then that while he was a good junior player the main thing he had going for him was his size. He was not far off his current height then and was able to dominate, but he hasn't really developed anything in his game since. Still doesn't come up at the ball or get his body behind it. Apart from his size he really doesn't have much to recommend him as an elite player. At 23, I think he should have already shown something, but I'm still seeing that 17 year old, albeit with a bit more meat on him. I watched a lot of Williamstown games this year and Ayce didn't ever dominate a game, not in the way Minson did a couple of years ago or Campbell or Stringer did this year. After so long in the system, he should be at least have a few tricks, but he often plays like a first year player. Barring injury to big men, I see Ayce as a permanent fixture in the magoos, as he won't be gifted any games next season, unlike in previous years. Unless he finds something extraordinary, and it may be something as simple as work ethic or attitude a la J Grant, then Ayce will struggle to reach 20 games, let alone 50.

[Happy Days]

His one outstanding asset, his agility, has been compromised in an attempt to bring pretty much every facet of his game, both in his physical development and his football nous, up to scratch.

This obviously has not provided any returns; the extra weight he's added has taken the agility away, but he isn't able to get to the stage physically where he can be dominant in a contest; some of the times he was out bodied by much smaller men was straight embarrassing.

I don't see it personally. He's shown very, very little and I would play every tall guy on the list ahead of him at this stage.

[jazzadogs]

There was a picture from Liam Jones on Instagram (which the Official Bulldogs account reposted) where Cordy appears to have added a bit of size, looks broader through the shoulders and chest. Fingers crossed!!

I think there have been glimpses of what he can provide...as much as anything, he's shown a desire to get the best out of himself and continue to push through the injuries & poor form, which would sit pretty well with Macca.

[bornadog]

Cordy is the typical bigman that just doesn't develop as a footballer until he is at least in his mid 20's. He has had issues with gaining weight but losing agility, injuries, body shape changing several times etc. I think the club has recognized this and has backed him in by giving him a three year contract and just being patient. Us supporters are not patient and we expect results.

Having said that, he needs to show some potential in 2014 just as Minson did at the same age.

I think his best position is a second ruck and not a dedicated FF.

[Remi Moses]

Hard to judge Cordy. The occasional glimpse and then back to mediocrity seems to be pat for thr course. Injuries haven't helped and the upheaval at Willy this year was also a problem.

That said a 3 year deal last year to me suggests the club (macca and Macca) see something in him and have a plan. Whilst the emergence of Grant and Campbell late in the year and recruitment of Crameri mean that forward spots will be hard to come by, the upside is that he may end up playing more of a #1 ruck role with Footscray.

Juries out. Has 2 years to prove he is worth a place on the list.

That's a point that's been lost .
The farce at Williamstown didn't help him at all.
Minson also took an eternity to become a decent consistent footballer .

[LostDoggy]

That's a point that's been lost .
The farce at Williamstown didn't help him at all.
Minson also took an eternity to become a decent consistent footballer .


Minson had also influenced games more often than Ayce

[Sedat]

I really wished that Cordy was advised not to nominate in 2008 with a promise by us to selct him in 2009. The 2008 ND was a cracking draft and we ultimately speculated on a very long term prospect with our first selection, a prospect still years away from cementing his AFL career at best. Cordy and Howard as first round selections in 2008/9 will hurt us when we are (hopefully) contending in 2-3 years time.

[Remi Moses]

Minson had also influenced games more often than Ayce

That's not right. Minson was promising early, then looked okay.
Broke his leg and really battled, then was only not traded because Gold Coast preferred a banged up Josh Fraser. I reckon he was even behind The great Peter Street

[bornadog]

That's not right. Minson was promising early, then looked okay.
Broke his leg and really battled, then was only not traded because Gold Coast preferred a banged up Josh Fraser. I reckon he was even behind The great Peter Street

You forget the game versus Brisbane in 2005, yes 8 years ago as a 20 year old winning the game for us in the last with his brilliant taps to Cooney. He played lots of good games as a young player but was always the second ruck and never had a chance to become consistent.

[Dazza]

Minson had shown a fair bit more than Cordy as a #1 ruck at the same age.

I think people forget that Minson really dominated at VFL level when he was behind Hudson in the pecking order. Even when he came into the team as a ruck people would often say he was more effective with his hitout work than Hudson was at the time. We'd often get a run on in games when he was rucking.

[Remi Moses]

You forget the game versus Brisbane in 2005, yes 8 years ago as a 20 year old winning the game for us in the last with his brilliant taps to Cooney. He played lots of good games as a young player but was always the second ruck and never had a chance to become consistent.

I'll give you one or two but honestly Minson went backwards under Eade where he was going to be traded. Cordy shown less granted, but the point is that bigs can take an eternity to develop and especially as under developed as he was. Minson had a distinct advantage of being physically bigger.
Jury is well and truly out on Ayce , and next season will be pivotal.

[Ghost Dog]

I'll back the judgment of the coaching staff.
The bone insertions in his shoulders - wonder if these affect his range or defensive capabilities?

Of all our tall men, watching him at training, he seems like best runner of the lot.

[Cyberdoggie]

What I struggle with is the assumption he's just going to come good, more often than not simply because he was talked up as a 17 year old. Personally if Cordy makes it at AFL level it's actually proof that you can take any tall kid who's a half a half decent athlete and make them a professional footballer so long as you're prepared to put 10 years into them. Eddie Prato was just as likely.

Campbell can mark, kick for goal, and impose himself physically. Ayce isn't close to being able to do any of those things and he's 2 years older and has been on the list 3 years longer.

I'll have to agree with you on this point.

Apart from a short glimpse in one game where he took a couple of marks, He's looked out of his depth.
I can understand that his progress can be hampered by the fact he's not strong or physically developed enough, but he just drops so many marks, even easy ones, and at best just looks like a lanky backup ruckman.

Having said that, I have seen the odd rare example of players that looked awful then all of a sudden put it all together.
There is also two good examples of the opposite at our club in Jones and Grant. Both have had years previously where they looked the goods, then followed it up looking like a pale imitation of their former selves.


Given our forward line struggles in previous years, and the evidence that Jones and Grant can go from handy to woeful, i'm going to sit on the fact that our lack of a forward line and quality midfield in recent years has something to do with it.

Ayce really has got this year to get some strength into his body and show us something or he'll be out the door.

[LostDoggy]

Having supported the Dogs for nigh on 60 years, Skinner is the most under-equipped player to wear the jumper and Cordy is next.

[bulldogtragic]

Having supported the Dogs for nigh on 60 years, Skinner is the most under-equipped player to wear the jumper and Cordy is next.
Thorne?

[Happy Days]

Thorne?

Bruton/Mulligan

[bulldogtragic]

Bruton/Mulligan
Ogle (nsw kid)

[Happy Days]

Ogle (nsw kid)

This is probably worth a really mean spirited thread on its own.

Great call, but I can't go past Bruton having more free kicks against than disposals in his career. Plus the dude was like 230 cams but he only got 2 hitouts in 2(!) games.

[LostDoggy]

Those names didn't cost a first round DP.

[Greystache]

Thorne?


Ogle (nsw kid)

Did either of them play an AFL game?

[bulldogtragic]

Did either of them play an AFL game?
That's my point. They were so far, far away from anything resembling an AFL player (IMO). There are 'project' players and there are just some really 'quirky' decisions...

But to the question, no.

[mighty_west]

Having supported the Dogs for nigh on 60 years, Skinner is the most under-equipped player to wear the jumper and Cordy is next.

Ayce Cordy >>> Patrick "built like Tarzan played like Jane "Wiggins.

[bulldogtragic]

I'm hoping it's a case of taking a Cameron Cloke to get a Travis Cloke.

[KT31]

I'm hoping it's a case of taking a Cameron Cloke to get a Travis Cloke.

I'm more hoping for taking a Jamie Grant to get a Chris Grant.:)

[azabob]

I'm more hoping for taking a Jamie Grant to get a Chris Grant.:)

Wasn't Chris already at the club when Jamie joined?

[KT31]

Wasn't Chris already at the club when Jamie joined?

From memory they signed Jamie the year before to help entice Chris.

[LostDoggy]

You forget the game versus Brisbane in 2005, yes 8 years ago as a 20 year old winning the game for us in the last with his brilliant taps to Cooney. He played lots of good games as a young player but was always the second ruck and never had a chance to become consistent.

:) It was all Adam that night, he would've made my taps look good. If ever a ball was on a string it was that night.

[Bulldog Joe]

:) It was all Adam that night, he would've made my taps look good. If ever a ball was on a string it was that night.

You seriously underestimate the performance of Minson in that game if you believe it was all due to Cooney.

[The Pie Man]

I have been - and remain - critical of Ayce's impact to date, though I think he'll be one of many to benefit from the emergence of the Footscray VFL team.

I see his only hope of making it as a No. 1 ruckman post Minson... I would've said that's Campbell's spot to lose up til the last month of the season - do they see Tom playing FF/R2 round 1 next year? Will be very interesting to see where it all falls pre-seaon/first month of the season proper.

Very much behind Will (1R) & Tom C (FF/2R) or even Tom W (should he fit the CHF/2R spot) for a senior guerney in 2014.

[KT31]

I have been - and remain - critical of Ayce's impact to date, though I think he'll be one of many to benefit from the emergence of the Footscray VFL team.

I see his only hope of making it as a No. 1 ruckman post Minson... I would've said that's Campbell's spot to lose up til the last month of the season - do they see Tom playing FF/R2 round 1 next year? Will be very interesting to see where it all falls pre-seaon/first month of the season proper.

Very much behind Will (1R) & Tom C (FF/2R) or even Tom W (should he fit the CHF/2R spot) for a senior guerney in 2014.

Tom is so fragile and spent so much time injured I cannot see them letting him near a ruck contest.
IMO they would use Roughy before Tom.
The rest I agree with.

[stefoid]

I really wished that Cordy was advised not to nominate in 2008 with a promise by us to selct him in 2009. The 2008 ND was a cracking draft and we ultimately speculated on a very long term prospect with our first selection, a prospect still years away from cementing his AFL career at best. Cordy and Howard as first round selections in 2008/9 will hurt us when we are (hopefully) contending in 2-3 years time.

Good point. Imagine if we had the Footscray VFL side up and running at that point - he could have slid into that and been under our noses until the 2009 draft.

[lemmon]

Good point. Imagine if we had the Footscray VFL side up and running at that point - he could have slid into that and been under our noses until the 2009 draft.

Family history or not would an 18 year old kid with a near certainty he would be drafted by another club refuse to nominate for the draft on the proviso his fathers old club may or may not draft him down the track? If I was put in that position I would tell the club to get stuffed and go to whoever wants me

[LostDoggy]

Family history or not would an 18 year old kid with a near certainty he would be drafted by another club refuse to nominate for the draft on the proviso his fathers old club may or may not draft him down the track? If I was put in that position I would tell the club to get stuffed and go to whoever wants me

Spot on. Pretty sure St. Kilda bid their first round selection on him that year, I know what I would have done.

[always right]

Family history or not would an 18 year old kid with a near certainty he would be drafted by another club refuse to nominate for the draft on the proviso his fathers old club may or may not draft him down the track? If I was put in that position I would tell the club to get stuffed and go to whoever wants me

What if the same club said...don't nominate for this year's draft because your body isn't ready for senior AFL footy. Spend the year in our VFL side using our facilities and conditioning team to build your body and we'll draft you under F&S the next year.

[Sedat]

What if the same club said...don't nominate for this year's draft because your body isn't ready for senior AFL footy. Spend the year in our VFL side using our facilities and conditioning team to build your body and we'll draft you under F&S the next year.
Yep. Cordy was as likely to play senior footy in 2009 as I was, and a year of VFL footy and giving his body the chance to fully recover from injuries and also filling out would have been the wiser option for all parties.

[jeemak]

What if the same club said...don't nominate for this year's draft because your body isn't ready for senior AFL footy. Spend the year in our VFL side using our facilities and conditioning team to build your body and we'll draft you under F&S the next year.

I would think he'd likely take the opportunity to secure a spot on an AFL list and be paid an AFL salary.

[The Underdog]

Yep. Cordy was as likely to play senior footy in 2009 as I was, and a year of VFL footy and giving his body the chance to fully recover from injuries and also filling out would have been the wiser option for all parties.

Isn't that pretty much what he did anyway?

[always right]

I would think he'd likely take the opportunity to secure a spot on an AFL list and be paid an AFL salary.

He doesn't strike me as the type who would have made his decision just based on money.

[always right]

Isn't that pretty much what he did anyway?

The point is we may have selected someone else in that draft knowing that we could take Cordy the following year.

[Happy Days]

I would think he'd likely take the opportunity to secure a spot on an AFL list and be paid an AFL salary.

Yep. What happens when he Nathan Browns his leg in the VFL?

[jeemak]

He doesn't strike me as the type who would have made his decision just based on money.

He's probably a pragmatist, who knows how drastically things can change in a year.

[Sedat]

Isn't that pretty much what he did anyway?
Yep, but instead of costing us pick 13 in 2008 it would have probably cost us the Shane Thorne 70-odd pick in 2009 (or worst case the Markovic 50-odd pick). And we then could have picked up any one of the pick 13-25 selections from 2008 to add to Jones and Roughy from that draft.

We didn't have a list manager then so probably weren't resourced up to think so strategically with regard to the composition of our list for future years.

[Greystache]

What if the same club said...don't nominate for this year's draft because your body isn't ready for senior AFL footy. Spend the year in our VFL side using our facilities and conditioning team to build your body and we'll draft you under F&S the next year.

I can't see any upside at all in that for Cordy. If I was his manager I'd laugh at the suggestion.

[Sedat]

I can't see any upside at all in that for Cordy. If I was his manager I'd laugh at the suggestion.
We could have paid him the equivalent of a first year draftee salary in lieu of him sitting out that draft and making a written promise to nominate him as a F/S selection the following year. Just needed a little lateral thinking.

[Happy Days]

We could have paid him the equivalent of a first year draftee salary in lieu of him sitting out that draft and making a written promise to nominate him as a F/S selection the following year. Just needed a little lateral thinking.

Isn't this draft tampering?

[The Underdog]

Isn't this draft tampering?

To be honest I'd be amazed if trying to do this with a F/S wasn't against the rules in a number of ways, starting with paying him a league salary to play for Williamstown. Too much benefit of hindsight in this discussion.

[Greystache]

We could have paid him the equivalent of a first year draftee salary in lieu of him sitting out that draft and making a written promise to nominate him as a F/S selection the following year. Just needed a little lateral thinking.

Writing a guarantee to a player to draft them next year on the basis of not nominating this year could end up costing us a hell of a lot more than we'd gain from having an extra first round pick.

Cordy would be crazy to sign the guarantee as well. Just look at what happened to Tippett.

[Happy Days]

To be honest I'd be amazed if trying to do this with a F/S wasn't against the rules in a number of ways, starting with paying him a league salary to play for Williamstown. Too much benefit of hindsight in this discussion.

Exactly; gotta remember when Cordy was drafted he was seen as an athletic freak with unlimited upside and we were extremely lucky to get him at 14. The guy at the AIS (name alludes me) had him going at pick 1!

[bulldogtragic]

Gotta say I'm struggling on how to feel or think about Ayce.

From what I saw of the VFL ruckman yesterday, Ayce should easily be no. 1 ruck if that's his position. So I would expect him to aim to dominate.

On the flip side, training and praccy matches he's still not using his height and agility as a bloody tall forward. He's wrestling and trying one hand marks and surely the coaches aren't telling him to do this. I find it bizarre we all need to compliment the one good thing he does per game as a prelude to criticism. I want to be positive, but one thing per match is frustrating and will not return over investment of a pick and years of development. It smacks of my childhood getting a medal at sport for being a spud, and at some point the reality of the world has to come in to it. Until he demonstrates consistent VFL domination I'd rather see Fletch or another tall.

There's hope, but there's new frustration and disappointment and I find myself falling between all 3.

[boydogs]

From what I saw of the VFL ruckman yesterday, Ayce should easily be no. 1 ruck if that's his position. So I would expect him to aim to dominate.

On the flip side, training and praccy matches he's still not using his height and agility as a bloody tall forward. He's wrestling and trying one hand marks and surely the coaches aren't telling him to do this.

Sounds a bit like Will Minson before he became #1 ruck

[bulldogtragic]

Sounds a bit like Will Minson before he became #1 ruck

To be fair to Will, he was a long way ahead at the same time.

[Greystache]

Sounds a bit like Will Minson before he became #1 ruck

Except Minson had shown some ability previously.

[Bulldog Joe]

Except Minson had shown some ability previously.

Will also has one quality that Ayce has not shown. Natural Aggression was a hallmark with Will from game 1.

[Mofra]

To be fair to Will, he was a long way ahead at the same time.
Will was a man-child with far less injury issues than Ayce.
Obviously Minson was a fair way ahead but it's not really a fair comparison.

[1eyedog]

While struggling to clunk them up forward, Minson was still kicking goals up forward as Hudson's understudy.

[bulldogtragic]

While struggling to clunk them up forward, Minson was still kicking goals up forward as Hudson's understudy.

No offence to you gogriff, but this is what I mean. His defence seems to be a single good thing in a game or defences akin to Minson. I want to believe, but if this is the extent of the reasons to believe my emotional effort could be spent better elsewhere.

[boydogs]

No offence to you gogriff, but this is what I mean. His defence seems to be a single good thing in a game or defences akin to Minson. I want to believe, but if this is the extent of the reasons to believe my emotional effort could be spent better elsewhere.

Sometimes BT you need to judge someone on the strength of their strengths, not the weakness of their weaknesses. Will's concrete hands didn't stop him becoming the #1 ruckman in the AFL in 2013, perhaps Ayce's wrestling and one handed marking won't be a factor if we try him in another role that plays to his strengths.

[Greystache]

Sometimes BT you need to judge someone on the strength of their strengths, not the weakness of their weaknesses. Will's concrete hands didn't stop him becoming the #1 ruckman in the AFL in 2013, perhaps Ayce's wrestling and one handed marking won't be a factor if we try him in another role that plays to his strengths.

Just out of curiosity what are his strengths? I've been watching him for 6 years I don't know what they are, other than he's tall of course.

[1eyedog]

Just out of curiosity what are his strengths? I've been watching him for 6 years I don't know what they are, other than he's tall of course.

The faith the coaching staff has in him.

[bulldogtragic]

Just out of curiosity what are his strengths? I've been watching him for 6 years I don't know what they are, other than he's tall of course.

This is what I mean to say. He refuses to use his alleged agility with his arms in the air. I want to find a reason to keep believing, but if we need to cotton wool every bad performance with 'he took one good mark' for the entire match then were not been quite honest with ourselves. I followed Tim Walsh like he was my messiah, but at some point you've got to stop and reflect honestly.

[Greystache]

The faith the coaching staff has in him.

Certainly a strength from a bank balance point of view :D

[Happy Days]

Just out of curiosity what are his strengths? I've been watching him for 6 years I don't know what they are, other than he's tall of course.

He's a pretty smart guy

[Greystache]

He's a pretty smart guy

Except when he's playing football.

[Happy Days]

Except when he's playing football.

Maybe he's smart enough to know that he can't run, jump and take the ball at the highest point, so that by wrestling with his opponent and never leading he can leave people frustrated instead of in disbelief that he's playing?

[bornadog]

Maybe he's smart enough to know that he can't run, jump and take the ball at the highest point, so that by wrestling with his opponent and never leading he can leave people frustrated instead of in disbelief that he's playing?

Maybe he is also playing under instructions - we don't know.

[Happy Days]

Maybe he is also playing under instructions - we don't know.

Yeah, maybe the coaching staff are getting him to play to his strengths :rolleyes:

[bornadog]

Yeah, maybe the coaching staff are getting him to play to his strengths :rolleyes:

From his Bio:


Cordy is a versatile tall who predominantly fulfils a dual role rotating between the ruck and forward line. The 23-year-old has overcome back and shoulder injuries in recent years to begin pressing for senior selection more regularly. An intensive gym program to build his 204cm frame has begun to pay dividends as Cordy now looks to regain his natural agility and carry the extra muscle with ease. The father-son selection was taken with the Bulldogs first round selection in 2008 (pick 14 overall).

I am prepared to wait, unlike some that have given up on him.

[1eyedog]

This is what I mean to say. He refuses to use his alleged agility with his arms in the air. I want to find a reason to keep believing, but if we need to cotton wool every bad performance with 'he took one good mark' for the entire match then were not been quite honest with ourselves. I followed Tim Walsh like he was my messiah, but at some point you've got to stop and reflect honestly.

Maybe its a cyclical conundrum. The more we invest in him the harder it is to give up on him. We also seemed hell bent on him as the messiah for our forward line. I don't think we took him under the premise that he would ever play ruck. We put all of our eggs into one basket taking him and have spent the last six years hoping to get some return on it.

Even when you consider Campbell's form last year, Jones' talent and Roberts' potential we really don't have anyone who looks like being a solid key forward for us in the years to come and that is why we persist. For mine, I can see Stringer playing out of the goal square as our full forward for the next however many years and that's about it.

[boydogs]

Just out of curiosity what are his strengths? I've been watching him for 6 years I don't know what they are, other than he's tall of course.

Tall & agile

[Greystache]

Tall & agile

Is he agile?

I would say as a key forward he is totally immobile. As a ruckman he is below average. Slightly better than the lumbering types like Jamar, Jacobs and Mumford, but miles behind the athletic ruckman like Naitanui, Leunberger, Grundy, Bellchambers, Cox, and Smith.

[boydogs]

Is he agile?

I would say as a key forward he is totally immobile. As a ruckman he is below average. Slightly better than the lumbering types like Jamar, Jacobs and Mumford, but miles behind the athletic ruckman like Naitanui, Leunberger, Grundy, Bellchambers, Cox, and Smith.

Perhaps he has lost some agility since before being injured and gaining muscle. This is the debate we need to have, not how bad his contested marking is

[bulldogtragic]

Perhaps he has lost some agility since before being injured and gaining muscle. This is the debate we need to have, not how bad his contested marking is

Why?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Is he agile?

I would say as a key forward he is totally immobile. As a ruckman he is below average. Slightly better than the lumbering types like Jamar, Jacobs and Mumford, but miles behind the athletic ruckman like Naitanui, Leunberger, Grundy, Bellchambers, Cox, and Smith.

What frustrates me is that even as a junior he hadn't proven anything. I remember playing with and against him, and had it not been for his height, he would of been totally irrelevant even back then.

His only hope is to turn himself into a ruckman, but that's drawing a long bow. He's already lost agility/mobility and he's still being pushed around by players half his size.

I put him in the same basket as Mulligan and I don't mean that as an insult, I've just never really seen him do anything that makes me think he's deserving of a spot on an AFL list.

[Greystache]

Perhaps he has lost some agility since before being injured and gaining muscle. This is the debate we need to have, not how bad his contested marking is

Totally agree, Buddy can barely mark but he overcomes it by being more athletic than his opponent and having outstanding skills (minus set shot goal kicking).

The question with Cordy is now he has added some muscle he looks less athletic than some of his likely opponents, but then is still not stronger either. He's lost his main asset without adding a new one, and given he's not a good mark or well skilled, where does he go from here? What sort of player is he trying to be?

[Greystache]

I put him in the same basket as Mulligan and I don't mean that as an insult, I've just never really seen him do anything that makes me think he's deserving of a spot on an AFL list.

I've asked this before but I've never managed to get anyone to discuss it with me sensibly, what did we see in Cordy that we didn't see in Prato? Both tall, skinny, reputedly athletic players, but neither possessing any real feel for the game. What makes us give Cordy 8 years but Prato only 2?

[soupman]

Bring back Eddie!!!!

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I've asked this before but I've never managed to get anyone to discuss it with me sensibly, what did we see in Cordy that we didn't see in Prato? Both tall, skinny, reputedly athletic players, but neither possessing any real feel for the game. What makes us give Cordy 8 years but Prato only 2?

A typical case of investing into a father son product who based on theoretical potential could develop into a key forward/ruckman. The result thereafter is that we've used our first round pick on him, spent years developing him already, and probably feel we almost have to give him another 2 or so years. He has to be the most fortunate player in the AFL to have been given 6 years (it'll be 7 when his contract ends?) on a list for absolutely no return. In terms of salary, he's laughing - he's obviously not on 200,000 but 6-7 years of 100,000+ is winning the virtual lottery.

If he was drafted with our last pick in 2008, would he still be on the list right now?

[bulldogtragic]

I've asked this before but I've never managed to get anyone to discuss it with me sensibly, what did we see in Cordy that we didn't see in Prato? Both tall, skinny, reputedly athletic players, but neither possessing any real feel for the game. What makes us give Cordy 8 years but Prato only 2?

Any defence of critique around Ayce has seemed a little over the top. An AFL player after 7 years against a below average defender in the worst defensive side who gets no marks or kicks should have a serious critical assessment. It has a huge show of faith to give him a massive contract, and it's not being returned. He doesn't use his height or his alleged agility, it's seriously frustrating. While Jarrad Grant has to be insulted with a one year deal until he could've left. If Ayce has another below average year, his contract will go down as an example of poor management, as 4 years of what he's giving would be a disaster.

[Greystache]

If he was drafted with our last pick in 2008, would he still be on the list right now?

No chance. And no one would be saying give him time, he'll come good.

[merantau]

What is the use of being 6' 18" tall if you can't mark? Marking should be his strength - it's not. Sure he has been unlucky with injury but he's had five years and he's managed a fair amount of football in that time. I would say that this is definitely the year that he has to show us more than something otherwise the patience of those that matter will be exhausted.

[1eyedog]

I've asked this before but I've never managed to get anyone to discuss it with me sensibly, what did we see in Cordy that we didn't see in Prato? Both tall, skinny, reputedly athletic players, but neither possessing any real feel for the game. What makes us give Cordy 8 years but Prato only 2?

Hype as a junior (blame Mick Turner for that), potential (blame his Father there), injuries (blame his weak body there) and then a coaching staff who have taken the Lindsay Gaze proclamation of '...if you're tall you have three years to show me you can't play' to a whole new level.

[jeemak]

There's some questions that are pertinent for me when it comes to Ayce.

1. Would I have drafted him with our first round pick in 2008 - Yes

2. Has he had the first two years of development, which were critical to him stifled by injury - Yes

3. Would I have given him three years after 2012 - No. Two would have been the maximum

4. Has putting on over 20% of body weight been detrimental to his game - Yes. People really underestimate the impact this has had on his development and overall game when you couple it with injuries

5. Am I disappointed with his output since 2012 - Yes

6. Did I expect any significant output from him prior to 2013 - No. He was always a very long term prospect

7. Would I have gifted him the games he's been gifted - Yes. Not all players are created equal. You can claim he's only being treated the way he is because of his draft position and that's fine. He was drafted in the position he was in and treated accordingly because he's seen to have unfulfilled potential and a higher ceiling than others. I can only presume there's a good reason for this, it's probably something to do with attitude and his willingness to improve versus and understanding from the club that he's always been seen as a very long term prospect that was always going to take a great deal of physical development to come good, on top of the physical attributes he brought to the table in his draft year

I don't see Ayce as anything other than a ruckman that could go forward and kick a goal or two throughout his career from this point. This year in the VFL is going to be a key year for his development.

The easiest thing to do with him from a supporter perspective is write him off now, and I can understand why people might do that.

[LostDoggy]

He's played 19 games and he only got his first AFL game 2 years ago. Massively disappointing given what we wanted but so is Howard. Our recruiting culture has changed and I don't see us going down a similar road again. He's low cost to keep on the list as a backup ruck (you would presume) so I just don't see the harm playing him in the VFL for a year to see what transpires. The difference between Cordy and Prato, rightly or wrongly, was F/S and the extent and regularity of cordy's shoulder issues. It took 3 years to see the kid play and we are now 2 years into seeing if he can be anything. Juries very definitely out but I'm still happy to see him hang around for a couple of years. He might do a Lazarus like our man Cooney!

[boydogs]

Why?

Because what a player brings to the table is not what they can't do, it's what they can do. Tony Liberatore & Daniel Cross can't kick. Lance Franklin & Travis Cloke can't kick for goal. Joel Selwood, Lenny Hayes & Sam Mitchell are one paced. Matthew Boyd turns the ball over. Will Minson & Ayce Cordy can't mark. Hell, Usain Bolt is slow off the mark.

Having a deficiency in their game isn't a reason to write someone off, it's not having a strength that is.

[Twodogs]

Nobody has noticed how good Ayce when the ball is below his knees? If he could just get the stuff that should be second nature to him right he could really be a player. He must be really hard working on the track because they don't just dish 4 year contracts out.

[boydogs]

An AFL player after 7 years against a below average defender in the worst defensive side who gets no marks or kicks should have a serious critical assessment.

5 completed seasons, many of which involved significant injuries or body changes. The critique's fine but no need to exaggerate his tenure.


I've asked this before but I've never managed to get anyone to discuss it with me sensibly, what did we see in Cordy that we didn't see in Prato? Both tall, skinny, reputedly athletic players, but neither possessing any real feel for the game. What makes us give Cordy 8 years but Prato only 2?

Cordy's agility was really highly rated, the hope was that he just needed time to build up strength and overcome his injuries to get that back.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Nobody has noticed how good Ayce when the ball is below his knees? If he could just get the stuff that should be second nature to him right he could really be a player. He must be really hard working on the track because they don't just dish 4 year contracts out.

Does it really matter that he's good below his knees for his size? At most he might get an opportunity to pick up a ground ball two or three times a game, and even then, he still has to make the correct decision to dispose of it before executing it well - two things he struggles with. His role as a forward is to lead, take marks, create contests and kick goals. His role as a ruckman is to compete physically at the center bounce and at stoppages, winning his fair share of taps and taking marks around the ground. Picking up ground balls is a luxury, but it's useless if that's all he can do.

I've watched him at training quite a few times and I've seen no improvements whatsoever. I've been critical in the past of our coaching staff allowing him to make these same mistakes in drills (ie. One hand mark attempts, not leading with purpose/pushing off to create separation). If you can't even do these basics at training, what hope have you got against real opposition?

It was a 3 year contract extension not 4, regardless, it was a downright stupid list management decision.

I don't buy into the "it costs us very little to give him an extra few years and see if he comes good" mentality, nor the injury excuses. Plenty of injury prone players have at least shown they can play quality football (ie. Williams for us and Dawson/Vardy for Geelong).

I know we haven't been blessed with talls, but again, I don't see that as an excuse to keep a player for 6-7 years simply because he is tall.

[Mofra]

If he was drafted with our last pick in 2008, would he still be on the list right now?
Yes - with the major difference being far, far less scrutiny.

In the modern era, would Peter Foster have been cut before he made the grade?

[Greystache]

Yes - with the major difference being far, far less scrutiny.

In the modern era, would Peter Foster have been cut before he made the grade?

You mean like how he was cut from Fitzroy?

I would argue modern players get given more games at senior level to see if they can play than at any other time in history- Cordy and Howard are obvious cases in point.

[jeemak]

TBB - Why don't you put any weight behind injuries stifling his development? Are you saying that all players adapt and recover to injury and changes in physique uniformly?

I agree that as a forward he should be taking marks and kicking goals (or at least contesting strongly), but who says his job is to lead at the ball carrier? Is that his instruction, or has the club been trying to get him to work on his body on body marking?

[Mofra]

You mean like how he was cut from Fitzroy?

I would argue modern players get given more games at senior level to see if they can play than at any other time in history- Cordy and Howard are obvious cases in point.
Exactly, a classic late developer.

Not saying Cordy will definately make the grade, but he was a super skinny teen who has lost a couple of years already to injury. He is well behind his draft year in development terms.

Howard has been a real disappointment and despite the hip has nowhere near the injury issues Cordy has had

[1eyedog]

Exactly, a classic late developer.

Not saying Cordy will definately make the grade, but he was a super skinny teen who has lost a couple of years already to injury. He is well behind his draft year in development terms.

Howard has been a real disappointment and despite the hip has nowhere near the injury issues Cordy has had

There really is no comparison between Foster and Cordy as they faced / face completely different obstacles to an AFL career. Peter was strong and he read the play / flight of the ball well even at Fitzroy but he was slow and too small (by Fitzroy's standards anyway) to play key back. Peter was cut from Fitzroy not because they thought he wasn't good enough but because a year earlier they drafted Gary Pert and Paul Roos and they wanted to get something for him while they could. Fitzroy always thought Foster would be ok but they simply got what they thought were better players, so they cut him loose. Foster could certainly play football and showed as much while at Fitzroy. Hampshire was happy to get him as he was just the sort of player he liked.

Cordy has shown absolutely nothing and I am beginning to wonder what the coaching staff make of him. For mine he is only being persisted with as there are no other young key forwards knocking down the door - Jones included. That or we have some inkling that he may one day play ruck, which I think given his injuries and ectomorph frame is a pipe dream.

[bulldogtragic]

5 completed seasons, many of which involved significant injuries or body changes. The critique's fine but no need to exaggerate his tenure.



Cordy's agility was really highly rated, the hope was that he just needed time to build up strength and overcome his injuries to get that back.

My bad, I hit the wrong number. If Cordy used his agility and height he'd be near unstoppable, at full speed with arms raised the touching the back rule and arm chopping rule would net him a couple of shots at goal every game. That's not amazing, but I'd take that. But in his 6th year to be wrestling unsuccessfully still is frustrating as it's not an overly complicated instruction to follow. I can't believe Cam Mooney is telling him not to use his only assets.

[1eyedog]

My bad, I hit the wrong number. If Cordy used his agility and height he'd be near unstoppable, at full speed with arms raised the touching the back rule and arm chopping rule would net him a couple of shots at goal every game. That's not amazing, but I'd take that. But in his 6th year to be wrestling unsuccessfully still is frustrating as it's not an overly complicated instruction to follow. I can't believe Cam Mooney is telling him not to use his only assets.

I think his problem is deeper. I don't think he reads the play great up the ground nor the ball coming in and this affects his ability to know when to lead. This ability is a true forwards bread and butter but he does not seem to have it. I have never seen him hit up on the lead.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

TBB - Why don't you put any weight behind injuries stifling his development? Are you saying that all players adapt and recover to injury and changes in physique uniformly?

Because even as a junior he showed very little. He's also had a good run at it now for 2-3 years and hasn't improved whatsoever. He still has no strengths to speak of (besides height).

In short - I don't think he has the talent, and never did.

I am not saying all players adapt/recover to injury uniformly, what I did say was that at some point in time, the players I mentioned (and many more - Gumbleton included) have actually shown they have the talent to be good or better players at AFL level. In other words, worth persisting with. Whether they all make it, for various reasons, who knows.


I agree that as a forward he should be taking marks and kicking goals (or at least contesting strongly), but who says his job is to lead at the ball carrier? Is that his instruction, or has the club been trying to get him to work on his body on body marking?

Not sure and as mentioned I have been critical of our coaching (or lack of) in this area. Either way, he isn't adequate in either area.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

You mean like how he was cut from Fitzroy?

I would argue modern players get given more games at senior level to see if they can play than at any other time in history- Cordy and Howard are obvious cases in point.

Agree with this.

As much as I don't rate a player like Tutt, there's at least an argument to be made for keeping him on the list another 12 months.

There is no argument for Cordy or Howard.

We, as a club, hold on to players far too long IMO. This includes our veterans (Eagleton, Hahn) as well as battlers (Skipper, Wiggins, Howard, Cordy) and under-performers who were traded a year later for nothing (Everitt, Hill).

[jeemak]

Thanks TBB. I didn't see him as a junior. He needs to demonstrate some attributes this year, for sure. There's no justification for not doing so because he has had continuity in his football in recent times.

I thought Howard showed some good signs in a couple of games in 2012 that made me think he had a chance at a career. Unfortunately I don't hold out a lot of hope he'll knock the door down to the required level in the VFL to earn another chance.

[josie]

I hope he proves us all wrong, however I went to the pre-season match against a very, very average St Kilda side down at Cattery. Sainters seemed to have a lot of their first team players incl. talls resting. Suffice to say I thought he was sub-standard. I know he has had shoulder problems but why oh why can't he reach those long praying mantis arms above his head and why oh why does he seem to position himself in the wrong spot to mark?

The sealer for me is that our players tend to avoid kicking to him, so I think they have little confidence in his abilities.

Not sure he is adequate as a ruckman either - he is too slight I think.

Again though, love to be proven wrong.

Go Dogs !!

[Bulldog4life]

I am looking forward to see how Ayce plays as a ruck/forward with our Footscray VFL team this year before I put the kabosh on him. I haven't given up hope that all might click into place for Ayce and the Club. Admittedly I am the supreme optimist but you just never know with big fellas.

[KT31]

I am looking forward to see how Ayce plays as a ruck/forward with our Footscray VFL team this year before I put the kabosh on him. I haven't given up hope that all might click into place for Ayce and the Club. Admittedly I am the supreme optimist but you just never know with big fellas.
Very frustrating, with the time he has been on our list he should be a senior player.
IMO he not up to it but will , with a great amount of hope not begrudge us seeing his contract out.

[bulldogtragic]

Cameron Mooney, Bulldogs Forward Coach (2 minutes before this post):

"Ayce is looking for a forward spot. But let's be honest, he's a ruckman and it's hard to knock Minson out of the ruck spot."

[LostDoggy]

What annoys me as a supporter, and obviously many others as above, is that ayce hasn't shown ANY sort of strengths for AFL, glimpses of what can develop etc.

It's not that he's been injured, that's he's been on the list for 6 years and played 20 games, or cost pick 14 - it's the fact he hasn't shown any AFL quality traits or potential during his tenure.

Prove everyone wrong in 2014 (or 2020) Ayce.

[Eastdog]

What annoys me as a supporter, and obviously many others as above, is that ayce hasn't shown ANY sort of strengths for AFL, glimpses of what can develop etc.

It's not that he's been injured, that's he's been on the list for 6 years and played 20 games, or cost pick 14 - it's the fact he hasn't shown any AFL quality traits or potential during his tenure.

Prove everyone wrong in 2014 (or 2020) Ayce.

Could he be delisted at the end of the year if he doesn't show this season.

[stefoid]

OK, so him and Campbell are our back up rucks.

Im more concerned with Grant and Jones who really need to step up as front line forwards.

[Twodogs]

Could he be delisted at the end of the year if he doesn't show this season.


Not without paying his contract out and it has until the end of next year to run.

[jeemak]

What annoys me as a supporter, and obviously many others as above, is that ayce hasn't shown ANY sort of strengths for AFL, glimpses of what can develop etc.

It's not that he's been injured, that's he's been on the list for 6 years and played 20 games, or cost pick 14 - it's the fact he hasn't shown any AFL quality traits or potential during his tenure.

Prove everyone wrong in 2014 (or 2020) Ayce.

He's genuinely shown a handful (five) of signs he may have some qualities that can fetch an AFL career.

That's not enough, but being contracted long term at the end of 2012 shows the club thinks he'll develop. Mooney's comments are telling, and they probably resonate with a lot of posters here. He's a ruckman wanting a spot as a forward because that's all that exists for him at the moment.

He needs to show ruck form in the VFL this year.

[MrMahatma]

I think he'll come good. Classic big man who needs time to develop at AFL level. Lots of time.

Personally, I don't think we should use 1st rounders on guys that are gonna need 8 or so years of development before they come good though. He's with us now and after 5 years on the list, I think he'll prob be with us anoth 3 or 4 at least.

[bulldogsfight]

I think he'll come good. Classic big man who needs time to develop at AFL level. Lots of time.

Personally, I don't think we should use 1st rounders on guys that are gonna need 8 or so years of development before they come good though. He's with us now and after 5 years on the list, I think he'll prob be with us anoth 3 or 4 at least.

Had to use first round pick on him as Saints had offered their First pick

[Sedat]

Because even as a junior he showed very little. He's also had a good run at it now for 2-3 years and hasn't improved whatsoever. He still has no strengths to speak of (besides height).
This is the nub of it with Ayce. Doesn't have strong hands, doesn't run and lead to the right spots, doesn't hold his ground in marking contests, doesn't have a fanatical defensive workrate, isn't quick as the wind, isn't athletically gifted, isn't a great decision-maker with ball in hand, doesn't have elite disposal, isn't a naturally gifted ruckman. So what exactly will give him the opportunity to sustain a decent AFL career?

For better or worse we've got him for another couple of years, and I believe his only chance to really make it is as a ruckman. He should ruck for 95% of the time in the VFL and just completely immerse himself in the artform - there is a great opportunity to be the head banana in a couple of years' time when Minno will probably burn out through overwork. It's up to him to really grasp it. I simply cannot see any prospect for him as a key forward whatsoever, unlike Tom Campbell who has shown a natural aptitude for a number of the strengths I mentioned in the first paragraph (understanding that he is still a long way off it from a consistency point of view).

[Mofra]

This is the nub of it with Ayce. Doesn't have strong hands, doesn't run and lead to the right spots, doesn't hold his ground in marking contests, doesn't have a fanatical defensive workrate, isn't quick as the wind, isn't athletically gifted, isn't a great decision-maker with ball in hand, doesn't have elite disposal, isn't a naturally gifted ruckman. So what exactly will give him the opportunity to sustain a decent AFL career?
I'm not so sure about this part - a 200cm player with his agility deserves the tag of athletically gifted.

The problem is, the athletically gifted mantra is about 10 years behind in football trends. Players these days simply need to develop football smarts to make the grade, and that for me is the biggest question on Ayce at this stage. He is an athlete who has sacrificed some of he real on field advatage (agility) for strength, yet he will constantly be up against natural footballs who just seem to be one step ahead mentally when the game is on.

Ayce is faster, stronger and taller that the athletically-limited Gia; only one of those players is in our best 22.

[MrMahatma]

Had to use first round pick on him as Saints had offered their First pick

To get him we had to use a first rounder. I don't think we should've bothered.

[bornadog]

To get him we had to use a first rounder. I don't think we should've bothered.

All good in hindsight.

[MrMahatma]

All good in hindsight.

Sure. Hopefully we don't pick super skinny ruck men with first rounders ever again. We did on this occasion. I hope we learn from that.

As I said earlier, I think he'll come good. I just don't think the years and years of little to no output are worth waiting for the pay off.

[chef]

He just doesn't look like a footballer, watching Daniher run around makes me so jealous.

[Greystache]

I'm not so sure about this part - a 200cm player with his agility deserves the tag of athletically gifted.

The problem is, the athletically gifted mantra is about 10 years behind in football trends. Players these days simply need to develop football smarts to make the grade, and that for me is the biggest question on Ayce at this stage. He is an athlete who has sacrificed some of he real on field advatage (agility) for strength, yet he will constantly be up against natural footballs who just seem to be one step ahead mentally when the game is on.

Ayce is faster, stronger and taller that the athletically-limited Gia; only one of those players is in our best 22.

Is Ayce agile? If it weren't for his draft profile from 7 years ago I doubt anyone would say yes. He's also slow, really slow. Gia might be slow for a running player but he would burn Cordy.

Cordy had agility for his height as a 16-17 because he wasn't carrying the bulk his peers were. To try to catch up to them, which he's still some way short of, the playing field was leveled and he's probably below average now.

[KT31]

Honestly if the last administration had not signed him for so long would he be on our list still.
Possibly he may have a bit of complacency knowing that he will be around with no effort because his contract says so

[jeemak]

Honestly if the last administration had not signed him for so long would he be on our list still.
Possibly he may have a bit of complacency knowing that he will be around with no effort because his contract says so

If I'm not mistaken, he was signed on by our current administration for three years finishing at the closure of next year.

Considering Bmac had such a large input in the drafting of Clay Smith and other players throughout the draft using his drafting criteria set, you'd have to think a similar set would be used for retaining players and trading players into the club.

I don't think his output has been where it should be for the past two years, but I wasn't expecting a great deal from him until 2013-2014 anyway, considering where he was when he arrived at the club.

For me he's a year behind where he should be, if you take into account his injuries and issues associated with physical development. If he didn't have the injuries in his first few years then he's further behind than that.

Make no mistake though, this administration owns Ayce's position on the list as it stands right now. They obviously saw more at the time than the majority of us don't right now.