Western Bulldogs set to double its poker machine numbers ahead of equalisation talks

[Greystache]

THE Western Bulldogs will almost double the number of poker machines it operates at The Peninsula Club, as the AFL says it is still working through whether gaming revenue will be included in an equalisation rich tax.

The Dogs’ application to increase the number of machines at the Dromana venue from 20 to 38 was granted by the Victorian Commission for Gambling and Liquor Regulation late last month.

The Western Bulldogs will now have 63 machines in operation — 25 at its Club Leeds venue in Footscray — still a long way short of pokies giant Carlton, which has 290 machines that generated $19.7 million in revenue last year.

The Dogs have 70 further machines waiting to be deployed at the trouble-plagued Edgewater development in Maribyrnong, which the club hopes to have completed before the start of next season.

According to last year’s community benefit statements, the Western Bulldogs were the only Melbourne-based AFL club to use any of their gaming revenue on the prevention and treatment of problem gambling.

The 1466 machines run by nine Victorian AFL clubs generated more than $100m in revenue.

AFL boss Andrew Demetriou said whether gaming money would be included in the revenue tax that will come into force next year as part of the league’s equalisation measures “hasn’t been finalised yet”.

Demetriou said the AFL neither “encouraged or discouraged” clubs from being part of the pokies industry, but said it was good that the Western Bulldogs were able to “bridge the gap between them and some of the larger clubs.

“It is entirely a decision for clubs, the AFL’s position has been very clear — we don’t advance monies for clubs to buy poker machines, it is entirely a decision for their boards,” Demetriou said.

“We don’t encourage or discourage them — it is another source of revenue for the clubs.

“Some of our larger clubs have a large number of machines and they are generating significant revenues from those.

“The Bulldogs have been working on their Edgewater project for four or five years, so to get a return on that investment I think is important.”

Western Bulldogs president Peter Gordon said the $30 million Edgewater development was “the biggest commercial venture in the club’s history and hopefully will add significantly to our capacity to service club members and grow our revenue base”.

Edgewater, which will include a four-storey hotel, bistro, cafe and conference facilities in addition to a pokies lounge, has been plagued by problems since the Maribyrnong City Council initially rejected the developer’s planning permit application in 2008, bringing on a six-week stoush at VCAT.

In a letter to members late last year, Gordon said “the club has faced a myriad of planning, legal, financial and securitising issues over the past two years.

“Much of the detail of these issues remains subject to an enduring obligation of confidentiality on the part of the club as a consequence of an agreement made by the club in June 2011.

“At the end of 2012, Edgewater was marooned in a position in which considerable risks were involved both in proceeding and not proceeding.

“And while I am frustrated that we are legally bound not to go into some of the detail, we have this year substantially ‘de-risked’ the construction phase of the project for the club and I regard this as one of the more important achievements of the club in the last 10 years.”

Link (http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/western-bulldogs-set-to-double-its-poker-machine-numbers-ahead-of-equalisation-talks/story-fndv8weh-1226876133359)

[bulldogtragic]

How does Peter juggle everything? Peter coming back is a dead set god send. I hope as a part of equalisation we can get some cash to repay personal loans back.

[Scraggers]

If Carlton get $19.7 Million from 290 machines; my maths tells me we will get (on average) $4.3 Million from 63 machines.

[bornadog]

How does Peter juggle everything? Peter coming back is a dead set god send. I hope as a part of equalisation we can get some cash to repay personal loans back.

I have heard Peter say he hates the way clubs have to rely on pokies for funds. I guess if you can't beat them join them.

[bulldogtragic]

I have heard Peter say he hates the way clubs have to rely on pokies for funds. I guess if you can't beat them join them.

I think I agree equally with both of those sentences in the current environment.

[G-Mo77]

I have heard Peter say he hates the way clubs have to rely on pokies for funds. I guess if you can't beat them join them.

I personally hate the way everyone relies on these things. Can't say I'm pleased with getting money this way but as you said. If you can't beat 'em....

[Prince Imperial]

If Carlton get $19.7 Million from 290 machines; my maths tells me we will get (on average) $4.3 Million from 63 machines.

Your maths are excellent! Actually the 2012/13 figures for the 30 machines at Club Leeds are $3,169,642.03 and the 20 machines at the Peninsula Club $1,177,042.37. Of course these aren't profits as this does not take into the operating and interest expenses (wages, lease costs at Club Leeds, interest costs for the Peninsula Club etc) that are incurred in generating these figures.

http://www.vcgr.vic.gov.au/CA2570C30016EEF3/wListOfVenues/B66900A8DB2C16A6CA257C690082F8EA?Open

http://www.vcgr.vic.gov.au/CA2570C30016EEF3/wListOfVenues/34200609826910F2CA257C690082F99C?Open

[1eyedog]

It's a shame clubs revert to targeting addictive personality types and lower socio-economic groups to make their money. I know not 100% of poker machine users are in this class, but a high percentage are.

[Scraggers]

It's a shame clubs revert to targeting addictive personality types and lower socio-economic groups to make their money. I know not 100% of poker machine users are in this class, but a high percentage are.

I don't believe clubs are deliberately targeting addictive personalities, but I understand what you are saying ... BUT if it comes to a choice of my club's continued existence in the AFL or adding more opportunity for someone to fulfil their addiction, I'll choose my club every time.

It's a sad state of affairs, but if we took North's moral stance and did not house these machines we would be relying on greater AFL hand-outs for the remainder of our years (limited once Andrew D leaves) or our club would be relocated interstate. We cannot pass the opportunity to relinquish $4Million.

Once Edgewater is up and running, maybe we can re-examine our moral stance then.

[bornadog]

we would be relying on greater AFL hand-outs for the remainder of our years (limited once Andrew D leaves) or our club would be relocated interstate. We cannot pass the opportunity to relinquish $4Million.

Once Edgewater is up and running, maybe we can re-examine our moral stance then.

Slightly off topic, I heard Peter Gordon on the radio talking about Gillon McLachlan. He was invited to the VU Whitten Oval recently and Gillon fully supports what the Dogs have done out there and supports pushing the club to expand in the Western Suburbs. Peter said he had his vote to become the next CEO.

[1eyedog]

I don't believe clubs are deliberately targeting addictive personalities, but I understand what you are saying ... BUT if it comes to a choice of my club's continued existence in the AFL or adding more opportunity for someone to fulfil their addiction, I'll choose my club every time.

It's a sad state of affairs, but if we took North's moral stance and did not house these machines we would be relying on greater AFL hand-outs for the remainder of our years (limited once Andrew D leaves) or our club would be relocated interstate. We cannot pass the opportunity to relinquish $4Million.

Once Edgewater is up and running, maybe we can re-examine our moral stance then.

Fair enough the club needs to survive and I'm a realist in today's society and want a football club to support no doubt. Perhaps targeting is a strong word but there's so much data around on who uses poker machines and what the effects of them are. They certainly don't make their money from the good Friday night out crowd they get it from their regulars, there every day. I've seen so many sad gambling stories through my mother in laws work that it just sits uneasy for me. I wish there were other options.

[Scraggers]

Fair enough the club needs to survive and I'm a realist in today's society and want a football club to support no doubt. Perhaps targeting is a strong word but there's so much data around on who uses poker machines and what the effects of them are. They certainly don't make their money from the good Friday night out crowd they get it from their regulars, there every day. I've seen so many sad gambling stories through my mother in laws work that it just sits uneasy for me. I wish there were other options.

Agreed ... Hopefully Edgewater allows us this luxury.

[Ghost Dog]

Fair enough the club needs to survive and I'm a realist in today's society and want a football club to support no doubt. Perhaps targeting is a strong word but there's so much data around on who uses poker machines and what the effects of them are. They certainly don't make their money from the good Friday night out crowd they get it from their regulars, there every day. I've seen so many sad gambling stories through my mother in laws work that it just sits uneasy for me. I wish there were other options.
Like
Good comments.

[LostDoggy]

I don't believe clubs are deliberately targeting addictive personalities, but I understand what you are saying ... BUT if it comes to a choice of my club's continued existence in the AFL or adding more opportunity for someone to fulfil their addiction, I'll choose my club every time.

It's a sad state of affairs, but if we took North's moral stance and did not house these machines we would be relying on greater AFL hand-outs for the remainder of our years (limited once Andrew D leaves) or our club would be relocated interstate. We cannot pass the opportunity to relinquish $4Million.

Once Edgewater is up and running, maybe we can re-examine our moral stance then.

I actually admire North for their stance. Hate them in every other way, but on pokies they are competition-leading. Morals can't be a question of whether you can afford them. You either do the morally right thing or you don't. Given our background and our major demographic, I'd be asking the club to put a medium-to-long term plan in place to phase them out.

[chef]

Agreed ... Hopefully Edgewater allows us this luxury.

Edegewater means there will be even more pokies. 70 more machines just sitting around waiting to be plugged in.

[Ghost Dog]

We can never truly call ourselves a community club until we are free of them. Sadly, I can't see this happening.
Those of us who know well the lower socio economic end of things know well all the typical stories associated with pokies.

[chef]

They(and gambling as a whole) are a cancer on the community.

[Axe Man]

I actually admire North for their stance. Hate them in every other way, but on pokies they are competition-leading.

I read an interesting little snippet on BF regarding North's pokies stance. I have no idea whether it's true or not but as written by "cammo78":


One club doesn't have pokies - Norf - and don't let them have you believe it's due to a moral decision on their behalf - they had a truckload of pokies in a venue they couldn't turn a profit from (the Captain's Bar at Etihad, which not surprisingly, doesn't draw a crowd on anything but match days). So - their pokies were haemmorhaging money and they had to cut their losses, that is the nuts and bolts of it. In true Norf form, however, they have taken a holier than thou stance on the whole thing.

[boydogs]

I read an interesting little snippet on BF regarding North's pokies stance. I have no idea whether it's true or not but as written by "cammo78":

A lot of their corporate social responsibility program was developed in partnership with Peter Scanlon. Reading between the lines, he makes it a prerequisite of his support for the club

http://www.glv.org.au/downloads/File/pdf/5-Support%20letter%20-%20Peter%20Scanlon.pdf

[SonofScray]

We can never truly call ourselves a community club until we are free of them. Sadly, I can't see this happening.
Those of us who know well the lower socio economic end of things know well all the typical stories associated with pokies.

I agree. I take a hard line on the pokies issue, full in the knowledge of our reliance, because of our branding as a team of the West and a community Club. It lacks congruency. I think the current environment and entrenched reliance on gaming revenue also has stifled innovation and the opportunity to create new revenue streams. Not just for us, but it'd give me great pride if we were one Club to buck the trend and thrive anyway.

Small consolation is that the pokies in this article are not in our community.

[bornadog]

I agree. I take a hard line on the pokies issue, full in the knowledge of our reliance, because of our branding as a team of the West and a community Club. It lacks congruency. I think the current environment and entrenched reliance on gaming revenue also has stifled innovation and the opportunity to create new revenue streams. Not just for us, but it'd give me great pride if we were one Club to buck the trend and thrive anyway.

Small consolation is that the pokies in this article are not in our community.

NSW have had the big clubs with pokies for a long time. The culture there seems to be alot different than here with the big clubs having lots of different entertainment, various eating outlets as well as the pokies. It seems more like a family night out. Not sure if anyone has been to the Penrith leagues club. I was up there a few years ago when my daughter was playing sport at the Penrith Rowing centre. A few families went to the Penrith club one night for a meal and I was amazed at the size of the venue and the activities available. I didn't see a pokie machine in sight, but I am sure there was.

Victoria tried to replicate the NSW scene, but it never worked and each venue seems to be dominated by pokies.

The hardest thing is to ween yourself off it, as the revenue needs to be replaced in some way. I can't see this happening in the short term, and I think we need to be diligent in eductating our punters to not over spend and make it an enjoyable night out.

[jeemak]

I think there should be universal laws against clubs making money through poker machines. The AFL should spend the next 24-36 months collating data on how much revenue clubs draw from poker machines and use this to instate a two year program to rationalise all club dependence on them and work through ways to supplement the revenue they draw.

There is absolutely no excuse for the AFL to continue to foster (without encouraging or discouraging participation) this element of harm within the community.

I think the influence over the game drawn from betting is well and truly beyond the pale. The lack of creativity in securing revenue from gaming surely needs to count as a black mark against Vlad's tenure. For such a clever person to allow the pervasiveness of betting operators to have such a significant influence over the entertainment aspect of the game is reprehensible. The fact he can't muster the courage to call out the dependence of clubs on poker machine revenue is disgusting and a slight on the good things he has done for the game.

Problem gambling is a terrible and very real issue for society. I have been lucky enough not to have family and friends impacted by it in a significant way, but there's clearly enough evidence to suggest that many of us have either been through it and the issue it causes directly or indirectly.

It's about time the clubs lobbied the AFL to take a collective stand against the dependence on poker machines to ensure the AFL has no association with them.

[comrade]

I think the influence over the game drawn from betting is well and truly beyond the pale. The lack of creativity in securing revenue from gaming surely needs to count as a black mark against Vlad's tenure. For such a clever person to allow the pervasiveness of betting operators to have such a significant influence over the entertainment aspect of the game is reprehensible. The fact he can't muster the courage to call out the dependence of clubs on poker machine revenue is disgusting and a slight on the good things he has done for the game.

Problem gambling is a terrible and very real issue for society. I have been lucky enough not to have family and friends impacted by it in a significant way, but there's clearly enough evidence to suggest that many of us have either been through it and the issue it causes directly or indirectly.


So what do you suggest the AFL does to limit the 'influence' of betting operators? Ban them from offering markets and restrict their ability to trade?

Problem gambling is a huge community issue but placing all responsibility on business for society's ills and restricting the ability of betting operators to actually trade is simply treating the symptom, not the underlying issue.

[LostDoggy]

NSW have had the big clubs with pokies for a long time. The culture there seems to be alot different than here with the big clubs having lots of different entertainment, various eating outlets as well as the pokies. It seems more like a family night out. Not sure if anyone has been to the Penrith leagues club. I was up there a few years ago when my daughter was playing sport at the Penrith Rowing centre. A few families went to the Penrith club one night for a meal and I was amazed at the size of the venue and the activities available. I didn't see a pokie machine in sight, but I am sure there was.

Victoria tried to replicate the NSW scene, but it never worked and each venue seems to be dominated by pokies.

The hardest thing is to ween yourself off it, as the revenue needs to be replaced in some way. I can't see this happening in the short term, and I think we need to be diligent in eductating our punters to not over spend and make it an enjoyable night out.

Somebody might correct me on this one, but as I understand it the liquor licenses in NSW are hideously expensive, and therefore these massive clubs are the only ones who can afford them. You may notice that outside of the CBD, there are precious few hole-in-the-wall bars and pubs in Sydney.

I was in Wentworth last October for the Mildura Country Music Festival, and even in this far-flung corner of NSW they had a huge pokies club, complete with young family and 4-year-old kid sitting in the TAB gambling area whilst Dad yelled at the horses/dogs.

It was not something I'd ever want to see Victoria emulate to the same extent. Sydney might have a better night life for young people, their nightclubs are insane, but for a quiet drink with the mates I feel Melbourne wins out every time.

[Webby]

Is there any update on this? I note that the article said the development would be completed at the start of the 2015 season.. More delays??

[Twodogs]

I remember when Garlick got the chop that one of the reasons were frustrations at how long it was taking to get the Edgewater venue actually open. So the new guy would have been fully briefed about how high this is on the To Do list.Although he doesn't take over until August. You'd hope it would be open by then.

[LostDoggy]

I think it said in The Age today that it would be sometime between August and Shocktober this year.