Hamling a Dog

[The Underdog]

Just logged onto the club website to find this

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2014-11-02/hamling-to-call-kennel-home

Looks like a sneaky Sunday morning signing

[Bumper Bulldogs]

What did he cost us, looks like the club has been active behind the scenes and good to see its been kept in house.

Looks to me that they are drafting well to complement the list. Makes sense on the Austin delisting

[GVGjr]

He certainly fits our focus on young players during the off season.
We have acquired Boyd, Biggs and Hamling before the National draft.

We will have to be patient with him as he hasn't played a lot of good football yet but I did read we wanted to draft him when the Cats selected him.

[ledge]

I think it's only soft tissue injuries that have been his problem.
This could be the training regime at Geelong, hopefully ours is a little different and he comes good.

[GVGjr]

Here is an article that might be worth a read

Hamlinghttp://geelongadvertiser.com.au/sport/geelongs-faith-in-joel-hamling-may-yet-be-rewarded-after-strong-start-to-vfl-season/story-fnjuhrhu-1226898578691

As would most youngsters, but he looks very small compared to Tom Hawkins

[SlimPickens]

Don't mind this move. He'll be costing us nothing and can continue to develop down at Footscray.

[LostDoggy]

Welcome Joel!

Hasn't cost us any picks as he's a DFA.

[GVGjr]

I thought I would check out Hamling's athletic prowess. We were apparently interested in drafting him in 2011 but the Cats got him first.

Hamling didn't get a senior game at Geelong and is still very much a longer term investment but maybe what maintained our attraction with him was his quickness and see him as a potential replacement for Morris.

Given that pace off the mark is a crucial requirement for key defenders I thought I should check his Combine results

In 2011 he recorded some great sprint times at the Combine
5M 0.98 10M 1.70 20M 2.90

Nakia Cockatoo is regarded as a highly rated explosive midfield prospect this year and Hamling's results almost duplicate his
5M 1.06 10M 1.70 20M 2.90

Based on his 2011 results he did have a lot of work to do on his endurance though.

I thought it might also be interesting to compare his leaping ability against another highly rated and athletic talent this year in the 194cm Tyler Keitel

Hamling
Vertical Jump 68
Running Jump Left 71
Running Jump Right 84

Keitel
Vertical Jump 68
Running Jump Left 80
Running Jump Right 79

I think there is a bit to work with here and I hope we can develop him quickly.

Welcome to the WOOF Pack Joel

[G-Mo77]

Decent pick up because he's exactly what we need. I'm not expecting much from him though.

[GVGjr]

I guess the question will be asked why the Cats couldn't maintain him but we see some value in him?

Maybe it was a decision made after the Rhys Stanley trade who they might see as a CHB

[BornInDroopSt'54]

There's also this:
https://www.broomeshs.wa.edu.au/news/student-success/student-achievements/77-joel-hamling

[G-Mo77]

I guess the question will be asked why the Cats couldn't maintain him but we see some value in him?

Maybe it was a decision made after the Rhys Stanley trade who they might see as a CHB

You could probably ask that question with all the players who are delisted. It's very rare a gem is unearthed after he finds a new club. My expectations are he'll probably become a serviceable backup.

[mjp]

Joel 'the hammer'!

Very excited to have a TeamWA boy at the dogs...our ONLY one.

[GVGjr]

Joel 'the hammer'!

Very excited to have a TeamWA boy at the dogs...our ONLY one.
Playing as a forward or as a defender for us MJP?

[KT31]

Big welcome to the Doggies Joel.

[ratsmac]

With Austin and Young going this is a nothing to lose signing. He's definitely worth it considering he doesn't cost you anything in a draft pick sense and he is further down the track development wise than any 18 year old we would pick up in the draft. This is a good move by the club and I hope it works out well for both parties.

[Dry Rot]

What's Hamling's kicking and disposal like?

[GVGjr]

Just out of curiosity over the last 10 years (maybe a little bit more) which Geelong delisted players have kicked on at other teams?

[Scorlibo]

Just out of curiosity over the last 10 years (maybe a little bit more) which Geelong delisted players have kicked on at other teams?

Tim Callan and Nathan Djerrkura spring immediately to mind. Callan was a good depth player for us when we were up and about, Djerrkura had limited impact though.

Historically it would seem to be a low rate of return investment. However, given that Hamling is only 3 years into the system and a key defender, there's more of a case to be made that Geelong were premature in their decision. He was drafted in the same year as Fletcher Roberts, and would seem to have made similar progress. If nothing else, he drives the competition up for a spot in the senior side. Roberts, Talia and Hamling will be competing for the same spot.

[ratsmac]

Just out of curiosity over the last 10 years (maybe a little bit more) which Geelong delisted players have kicked on at other teams?

This question sprung to my mind straight away when I read about his signing this morning. You can ask the same question for all teams really. It wouldn't be a high hit rate that desisted players from any team turn out to be 100 game + players would it?

[ledge]

Well if its been ten years it's due.

[1eyedog]

Just out of curiosity over the last 10 years (maybe a little bit more) which Geelong delisted players have kicked on at other teams?

Most recently probably Pods although he gave the cats good service.

[F'scary]

I heard that they cut him because they have too many Joels...

Causes problems at training or something.

[GVGjr]

Most recently probably Pods although he gave the cats good service.

I guess the point I'm making and one that Bulldog Joe made a little while back is that the Cats are pretty good at assessing players.
They have done very well when they recruit established players from other sides and their players that have done well at other clubs like Mumford were because they couldn't really hold them in the face of big money offers more than getting it wrong.

This is no knock on Hamling but no senior games in 3 seasons and the Cats not prepared to maintain him even allowing for their older list to me means that we need to take a longer term view him. He is probably someone for 2016 more than 2015.

We are fortunate enough to probably be able to offer him that sort of time frame.

[Remi Moses]

Fits our needs size wise and role .
Clearly needs some more weight, but it's interesting Geelong didn't keep him.
They've got Lonergan and Rivers in the backend of their careers, and yet didn't persevere with Joel.

[F'scary]

Welcome to the Doggies, Hamlet.

[azabob]

This is no knock on Hamling but no senior games in 3 seasons and the Cats not prepared to maintain him even allowing for their older list to me means that we need to take a longer term view him. He is probably someone for 2016 more than 2015.

We are fortunate enough to probably be able to offer him that sort of time frame.

Following on from this line of thought - Geelong are not afraid to play young kids either. Secondly with Taylor and Tom Longergan closer to the end rather than the start, he seems a long shot of making it.

[GVGjr]

Following on from this line of thought - Geelong are not afraid to play young kids either. Secondly with Taylor and Tom Longergan closer to the end rather than the start, he seems a long shot of making it.

It might also be a recognition that they have a very small premiership window and are loading up not for a hard push in the next 2 years.

I'd add Mackie and Rivers to your list of defenders showing a level of decline.

[F'scary]

There's also this:
https://www.broomeshs.wa.edu.au/news/student-success/student-achievements/77-joel-hamling

A very mysterious link, BIDS.

But looks like a great school!

[boydogs]

A very mysterious link, BIDS.

But looks like a great school!

https://www.broomeshs.wa.edu.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=77:joel-hamling&catid=70&Itemid=203

[F'scary]

https://www.broomeshs.wa.edu.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=77:joel-hamling&catid=70&Itemid=203

ah, thank you Boydogs. :)

[1eyedog]

I guess the point I'm making and one that Bulldog Joe made a little while back is that the Cats are pretty good at assessing players.
They have done very well when they recruit established players from other sides and their players that have done well at other clubs like Mumford were because they couldn't really hold them in the face of big money offers more than getting it wrong.

This is no knock on Hamling but no senior games in 3 seasons and the Cats not prepared to maintain him even allowing for their older list to me means that we need to take a longer term view him. He is probably someone for 2016 more than 2015.

We are fortunate enough to probably be able to offer him that sort of time frame.

I saw BJ's post and there is certainly some merit in it - although Geelong also seem to have quietly stockpiled a number of KPP over the past 5 years. It's true that they have an aging back line in Lonergan, Taylor and Rivers but getting Clark means that they can now play Taylor down back on a full time basis - no more need for Taylor to pinch hit as a second forward.

If we consider Hamling playing as a forward at Geelong there is obviously Hawkins and Clark and probably Vardy now in front of him but there is also Walker and Kersten too, who are bigger-bodied and ready to play senior football. Down back they have the experienced three mentioned above as well as Toohey, who they have big wraps on.

If we consider Hamling as a back (which I don't I see him more as a Cam McCarthy type roving forward although obviously MJP would obviously be able to comment on this) his number was probably up when they brought in Jack Kolodjashnij, who is a mobile back they rate. Rather than simply not being good enough I believe the de-listing of Hamling and to a lesser extent Brown was more a list management perspective to open spots than anything else. Geelong knows it needs to bring in a more diversified playing list especially after losing some of it's outsiders in Christensen and Varcoe. They have key talls in spades so Hamling was squeezed out as he is the most long-term project of all of them. I'm happy with the acquisition, if he can develop his core strength without losing mobility he may surprise as a roving CHF.

[F'scary]

We have a huge hole at CHF. Maybe Hamlet can be trained up for the position in the twos this year?

[LostDoggy]

So does this mean if we want to use our first 5 picks we would need to delist someone else?

[bornadog]

Just logged onto the club website to find this

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2014-11-02/hamling-to-call-kennel-home

Looks like a sneaky Sunday morning signing

Its not a sneaky Sunday Morning signing because DFA period started on Saturday.

Happy with this pick up as he is still only 21, so plenty of upside for a big atheltic type.

[F'scary]

So does this mean if we want to use our first 5 picks we would need to delist someone else?

Yes, 2 delistings must now take place.

[Rocco Jones]

So does this mean if we want to use our first 5 picks we would need to delist someone else?

In- T. Boyd, Biggs, Hamling, Z. Cordy, Jong, Redpath (6)
Out- Goodes, Gia, Williams, Howard, Young, Griffen, Jones, Cooney, Higgins (9)

We have picks 25. 26, 39, 45 and 46. So far we just have three spots left. Tutt, Fuller and Pearce all chances to be delisted.

[azabob]

My understanding is Tutt still wants out, so there is one. If Pearce is out of contract he may be the unlucky one.

[Twodogs]

I saw BJ's post and there is certainly some merit in it - although Geelong also seem to have quietly stockpiled a number of KPP over the past 5 years. It's true that they have an aging back line in Lonergan, Taylor and Rivers but getting Clark means that they can now play Taylor down back on a full time basis - no more need for Taylor to pinch hit as a second forward.

If we consider Hamling playing as a forward at Geelong there is obviously Hawkins and Clark and probably Vardy now in front of him but there is also Walker and Kersten too, who are bigger-bodied and ready to play senior football. Down back they have the experienced three mentioned above as well as Toohey, who they have big wraps on.

If we consider Hamling as a back (which I don't I see him more as a Cam McCarthy type roving forward although obviously MJP would obviously be able to comment on this) his number was probably up when they brought in Jack Kolodjashnij, who is a mobile back they rate. Rather than simply not being good enough I believe the de-listing of Hamling and to a lesser extent Brown was more a list management perspective to open spots than anything else. Geelong knows it needs to bring in a more diversified playing list especially after losing some of it's outsiders in Christensen and Varcoe. They have key talls in spades so Hamling was squeezed out as he is the most long-term project of all of them. I'm happy with the acquisition, if he can develop his core strength without losing mobility he may surprise as a roving CHF.


Great post. I see Hamling effectively taking Liam Jone's spot on the list albeit behind a bit in his physical development.

This is another bonus of having our own reserves team. We can monitor and oversee a players development better because he is right there all the time. We can now bring kids like Hamling to the club knowing we can give him a proper development path without another clubs objectives needing to be added to the agenda.

[F'scary]

My understanding is Tutt still wants out, so there is one. If Pearce is out of contract he may be the unlucky one.

Reading between the lines, Tutt being so cocksure about walking out, the Blues have told him they will use one of their late picks on him.

[The Underdog]

Its not a sneaky Sunday Morning signing because DFA period started on Saturday.

Happy with this pick up as he is still only 21, so plenty of upside for a big atheltic type.

Aware of that, but it was posted this morning which is an odd time to post it. I didn't get an exact time on the signing of the contract but I'll do more research and make sure I'm more literal with my language next time.

[KT31]

So does this mean if we want to use our first 5 picks we would need to delist someone else?

Still no word on Tutt, is it possible we waiting and see if if someone we like is available around our last selection the draft and then will make a decision to delist someone?
If so it really was a waste trading for Jones away and could of just delisted him.

[GVGjr]

If we consider Hamling as a back (which I don't I see him more as a Cam McCarthy type roving forward although obviously MJP would obviously be able to comment on this) his number was probably up when they brought in Jack Kolodjashnij, who is a mobile back they rate. Rather than simply not being good enough I believe the de-listing of Hamling and to a lesser extent Brown was more a list management perspective to open spots than anything else. Geelong knows it needs to bring in a more diversified playing list especially after losing some of it's outsiders in Christensen and Varcoe. They have key talls in spades so Hamling was squeezed out as he is the most long-term project of all of them. I'm happy with the acquisition, if he can develop his core strength without losing mobility he may surprise as a roving CHF.

Great post.

On the clubs website there is a reference that we are adding to our defensive stocks by getting Hamlin to the club. Given that he also played a lot of footy this year as a defender for the Cats VFL side I've assumed we see him primarily as a defender.
Perhaps we even see him as a player that can play forward and back.

I think Hamling is a good addition to the club and I see it is more as a long term move rather than someone who might be able to hold down a spot consistently next year.

[bulldogtragic]

In- T. Boyd, Biggs, Hamling, Z. Cordy, Jong, Redpath (6)
Out- Goodes, Gia, Williams, Howard, Young, Griffen, Jones, Cooney, Higgins (9)

We have picks 25. 26, 39, 45 and 46. So far we just have three spots left. Tutt, Fuller and Pearce all chances to be delisted.

At least two of them, we need to use these 5 picks. Tutt and Pearce would be my two. Fuller had a non eventful year, but paying him out for no return next year seems less likely.

[KT31]

Tutt seems a certainty to be gone, have both Fuller and Pearce been training ?

[azabob]

Tutt seems a certainty to be gone, have both Fuller and Pearce been training ?

Training officially doesn't start until Wednesday November 5th for the younger players.

[Torpedo]

From the Age this pm. 'The Blues will also secure former Bulldog Jason Tutt. They will either pick up Tutt as a delisted free agent, or, should the Bulldogs not delist him, through the pre-season draft'.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/richmond-signs-taylor-hunt-joel-hamling-heads-to-bulldogs-20141102-11fpt9.html

[Webby]

This is decent business by the club from where I sit. A few clubs would've spoken to Hamling, but he's chosen us. Probably due to the list being where it's at and also the clear opportunity that our back line would present for him.

I've been banging on about how important it is for the club for both Roberts and Talia to really kick on next season. With Hamling, I think we now have a third option. We can throw brackets around the names Roberts, Talia and Hamling and hope that at least two of them kick on next year. Then there's Zaine Cordy and suddenly we have a fair few young defenders to watch....

That's a lot more uplifting than pinning hopes on Austin and Markovic!

[LostDoggy]

Joel 'the hammer'!

Very excited to have a TeamWA boy at the dogs...our ONLY one.

What about JaJo?

[Ghost Dog]

Dale and Murph will retire soon. Talia hasn't come along and Zane was only just recruited. Young and Austin delisted.
It's a real area of concern down back. Can't think of anyone near able to replicate what Dale and Murph can do.
We need to glean as much as we can from their experience by shoving replacements down there. Welcome to the club Hamo. Learn all you can from the glove.

[SlimPickens]

Talia hasn't come along.

I hate reading these comments, Talia is 21, 21 , the exact same age as the kid we just recruited. He played some very strong VFL footy this year and genuinely developed. I expect Michael to become a consistent performer at AFL level very soon.

Recruiting Hamling will add to some healthy competition in the defensive 6 next year which is only a good thing.

[Webby]

I hate reading these comments, Talia is 21, 21 , the exact same age as the kid we just recruited. He played some very strong VFL footy this year and genuinely developed. I expect Michael to become a consistent performer at AFL level very soon.

Recruiting Hamling will add to some healthy competition in the defensive 6 next year which is only a good thing.

Talia's kicking seemed to have improved later in the year. He was actually pretty good by foot in the GF. He's got some size on him, so needs to work on his speed. He can be a bit sluggish at times. He also needs to master the tools of the trade, but I think that'll come with some physical development. A big pre-season will set him up and everything will stem from that. He really needs to clock-on on Wednesday and get to work!

But I like what I saw with his kicking. You could see he really focused on that aspect. He had his head more over the ball and was more exacting. That's a good sign that he is prepared to work on things and isn't just ambling along.

Hopefully he and Roberts will be kicked along by the competition that's coming.

[Drunken Bum]

Tutt seems a certainty to be gone, have both Fuller and Pearce been training ?


From the Age this pm. 'The Blues will also secure former Bulldog Jason Tutt. They will either pick up Tutt as a delisted free agent, or, should the Bulldogs not delist him, through the pre-season draft'.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/richmond-signs-taylor-hunt-joel-hamling-heads-to-bulldogs-20141102-11fpt9.html

I'm happy we're playing hard ball with Tutt, I doubt we are holding out any real hope of convincing him to stay but seeing as we seemingly didn't want to lose him and Carlton and Tutt were happy to play the PSD card, stuff them, wait til the DFA period is over before delisting him and make them get him in the PSD, if we delist him now they can get him as a DFA and he can start training with carlsum straight away, nup, why give either of them a headstart

[Rocco Jones]

I'm happy we're playing hard ball with Tutt, I doubt we are holding out any real hope of convincing him to stay but seeing as we seemingly didn't want to lose him and Carlton and Tutt were happy to play the PSD card, stuff them, wait til the DFA period is over before delisting him and make them get him in the PSD, if we delist him now they can get him as a DFA and he can start training with carlsum straight away, nup, why give either of them a headstart

I have the same sentiments as you. Only thing is, if we delist him after the DFA period can we still get a pick for him the ND or do we have to wait for the PSD?

[Drunken Bum]

I have the same sentiments as you. Only thing is, if we delist him after the DFA period can we still get a pick for him the ND or do we have to wait for the PSD?

My understanding, and i am not 100% on this so could very well be wrong, is that the DFA signing window ends before the draft and is then the final list lodgement before the draft so we can delist him then, or he walks to the draft either way and we then fill that spot in the national draft if we wish.

[Drunken Bum]

Thursday November 13, by 2pm - List lodgement (2).


Friday November 14 - AFL delisted player free agency period (2) begins


Wednesday November 19 - Delisted primary list draft nomination form lodgement; Non–retained rookie players draft nomination form lodgement; Players not registered or played for three years rookie nomination. NAB AFL delisted player free agency period (2) closes


Thursday November 27 - NAB AFL Draft selection meeting (Gold Coast Convention Centre).


Friday November 28 - NAB AFL delisted free agency Period (3) begins


Isn't very clear, but looks like we can at least delay it up until the draft, Then Carlton if they still want to can pick him up as a DFA straight after the draft
Personally, i'd play it out as long as we can, partly from spite but also because it disadvantages our opposition even if it is ever so slightly

[divvydan]

An important date is


Wednesday November 12 - NAB AFL delisted player free agency period (1) closes; Out of contract listed AFL primary list players draft nomination form and player request for removal from list form Lodged with AFL; New or expired (after three years) draft nomination form lodgement.

Basically means that if Tutt wants to be removed from our list and enter the draft, he must do so by that date, which is before the second list lodgement date so we'll know at that point.

[Ghost Dog]

I hate reading these comments, Talia is 21, 21 , the exact same age as the kid we just recruited. He played some very strong VFL footy this year and genuinely developed. I expect Michael to become a consistent performer at AFL level very soon.

Recruiting Hamling will add to some healthy competition in the defensive 6 next year which is only a good thing.

Fair point with the age factor. Well played. Give the kid a break eh? With Bulldogs blood in him, would love nothing more for him to succeed.

[LostDoggy]

I play mixed futsal on a Sunday night at Whitten Oval, and was doing a lap of the oval to warm up last night. Hamling was there training with a mate. If he's going to be training at 1930 on a Sunday night at the start of November, I'm happy we've got him on the list. Good luck Joel!

[KT31]

I play mixed futsal on a Sunday night at Whitten Oval, and was doing a lap of the oval to warm up last night. Hamling was there training with a mate. If he's going to be training at 1930 on a Sunday night at the start of November, I'm happy we've got him on the list. Good luck Joel!

Is this some type of nine a side or touch AFL ?

[jazzadogs]

Is this some type of nine a side or touch AFL ?

Indoor soccer.

[LostDoggy]

Is this some type of nine a side or touch AFL ?

It's indoor soccer but with slightly different rules. Very fun, but really stretches the fitness.

[F'scary]

Just watched Hamlet's highlights reel on the WB club website - gotta say, he looks like a real KP prospect for season 2015. He's tall and he has a bit of a build too.

[Twodogs]

Just watched Hamlet's highlights reel on the WB club website - gotta say, he looks like a real KP prospect for season 2015. He's tall and he has a bit of a build too.


If he is half as determined as the original Hamlet we've got a player!

[The Bulldogs Bite]

My expectations are relatively low, but he does project to me as a Hargrave replacement. Quite tall, very quick and suited to the third tall or small forwards.

[F'scary]

My expectations are relatively low, but he does project to me as a Hargrave replacement. Quite tall, very quick and suited to the third tall or small forwards.

Looks to me like a dead set CHB, FB or CHF. He has the size.

[always right]

Only have the highlights to go by. Seems to be a bit of a two-grabber when marking but lot to like about his spoiling, recovery, ground work and athelticism. Worth a punt.

[bulldogtragic]

Looks to me like a dead set CHB, FB or CHF. He has the size.

Looked like a player not worthy of being on Geelong's list, so they thought. I hope the best for him but our record of taking Geelong fringe players is not good.

[G-Mo77]

Looked like a player not worthy of being on Geelong's list, so they thought. I hope the best for him but our record of taking Geelong fringe players is not good.

Regardless of who he played for previously the strike rate at grabbing any delisted player wouldn't be very good.

[bulldogtragic]

Regardless of who he played for previously the strike rate at grabbing any delisted player wouldn't be very good.

Agreed, if he gets a season or two of good form its a bonus, ala Bandy. Otherwise it's Lower, Young etc. Richmond have come undone hitting delistees to hard and it looks like Carlton is going down it. I think of coming off rock bottom like being pregnant. You either go the draft and select trades or not. Topping up fringe players is a waste of everyone's time and effort. But I hope Hamling proves this wrong.

[Twodogs]

Looked like a player not worthy of being on Geelong's list, so they thought. I hope the best for him but our record of taking Geelong fringe players is not good.

No worse than rejects from any other club. Virtually nil. But hope springs eternal.

[Bulldog4life]

He also kicked 5 goals in one match this season in the VFL.

[F'scary]

Only have the highlights to go by. Seems to be a bit of a two-grabber when marking but lot to like about his spoiling, recovery, ground work and athelticism. Worth a punt.

He was cut because of a surfeit of players like him or so it has been said. Add that the Cats brains trust were inspired to trade pick 21 for StK dud Stanley.

[F'scary]

Looked like a player not worthy of being on Geelong's list, so they thought. I hope the best for him but our record of taking Geelong fringe players is not good.

C'mon. Djerrkura.

[LostDoggy]

Matty Robbins was more then servicable.

[Twodogs]

Alec Eason.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Matty Robbins was more then servicable.

Pretty underrated player.

I was a big fan of him, even in his early days as a defender. I remember mentioning I thought he had the tools to become a good forward, and the following year that's what happened.

He was quick, strong, a good one on one player, could jump, applied great defensive pressure when it wasn't the norm and was a solid finisher. He didn't get a lot of it, but he was a quality player. It's just a shame that he wasn't around/in his prime when we had a better list from 08-10.

[bulldogtragic]

Pretty underrated player.

I was a big fan of him, even in his early days as a defender. I remember mentioning I thought he had the tools to become a good forward, and the following year that's what happened.

He was quick, strong, a good one on one player, could jump, applied great defensive pressure when it wasn't the norm and was a solid finisher. He didn't get a lot of it, but he was a quality player. It's just a shame that he wasn't around/in his prime when we had a better list from 08-10.

Unlike most of his era, I thought he had a good year of footy left in him.

[Happy Days]

Thread needs more Andrew Wills

[Torpedo]

Perhaps he retired too late.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/former-bulldog-matthew-robbins-tells-of-awful-effects-of-multiple-concussions/story-fnantfnw-1226384003954?nk=a134e611714321cc3cf672642a9b7f45

[1eyedog]

He was cut because of a surfeit of players like him or so it has been said. Add that the Cats brains trust were inspired to trade pick 21 for StK dud Stanley.

Yes he was well back in the pecking order but had not showed much during his tenure. Promising junior who is a long-term prospect and worth a shot.

[Torpedo]

Matthew Robbins suffers effects of concussion
Maybe Matthew left a year too late.

The Herald Sun, 05 June 2012

SUDDENLY, it's not the usual drive home to Chadstone.

The black Honda CRV is creeping along Footscray Rd, but Matthew Robbins is starting to black out. He almost veers across the road.

The Western Bulldogs star has his hand across the only eye that he can still open. His head is thumping hard and he's blinded by the sunlight, but there's still 16km to get home.

Will he make it back to Chaddie?

That trip home from training was the first time Robbins knew something wasn't right. It wouldn't be the last episode.

Five years after his AFL career has ended, he wonders if those knocks to the head he got across 146 games left him with a different kind of football legacy - depression.

Ex-Dog calls on AFL to take action on head knocks

THE worst of those big hits was from Matthew Lloyd. It was Round 4, 2003, and Robbins had backed into the hole to cut off the Essendon champ's surging lead.

For a fleeting second time stood still and he almost marked it, until Lloyd hit him like a truck.

The lights went out and Robbins hit the deck. He struggled to his feet and played out the final few minutes of the term.

At quarter time he complained of numbness and pins and needles in his arm.

Club doctors placed him in a neck brace and took him to Freemasons Hospital where he stayed overnight.

Robbins complained of a headache and they found two broken bones in his neck.

"I was going back and Matty Lloyd was coming steaming through," Robbins recalled.

"I ended up getting poleaxed and actually felt a fair whiplash and shock through my system. It's the scariest place to be in, I can assure you, when you're going back with the flight.

"All of a sudden everything feels like it's in slow-mo. You're waiting for the hit - you know it's coming - and then all of a sudden it feels like it goes quiet and you're just about to mark it and then someone just comes through and crumples you."



LLOYD can still recall the incident. He kicked five that day in a handy comeback win.

"It was something that Sheeds taught me from the first day I got to Essendon - if someone drops in the hole you make them pay," Lloyd said yesterday.

"Matty Robbins was always a courageous player. He obviously had skill, as well, but that was one of the traits he had.

"At the time, I wouldn't have known the damage that I'd done but I remember it coming out in the weeks afterwards."

Robbins's mum Janet was watching from the stands.

"If you see any player go down you just feel for them and the parents of the player," she said yesterday.

"When we found out he was in hospital we just left our seats and left the game to see him."



BUT Robbins wasn't always brave. After an early game in his AFL career he pulled out of a contest.

"It was my time to go and I didn't make a real good contest of it," Robbins says.

"It was a pretty poor effort and not something I was proud of."

The following Monday his coach, Terry Wallace, made a point of it in the match review in front of the entire team.

From that day on, Robbins never squibbed a contest.

He fought hard for every game and copped several other knocks, some big, some small and often at the Docklands stadium, where he says the ground was always firm.

Then, two years before his retirement, Robbins was diagnosed with depression.

He kept it from his club.

The symptoms started out as headaches, which drifted into migraines a couple of weeks after he'd been hit.

Two years before his retirement, Robbins was diagnosed with depression. He kept it from his club. The symptoms started out as headaches, which drifted into migraines a couple of weeks after he'd been hit.

"I'd be sick and basically had to sleep them off in a dark room," Robbins says.

"I guess I just thought I was someone who got headaches. I didn't think about a connection.

"But I remember driving home from training one day and it was so bad I could hardly see."

The so-called black dog crept up on him. He recalled: "It just felt like something wasn't right, but it's hard to put into words. My motivation was waning, I was struggling to get out of bed and things I'd loved doing I really struggled with."

For fear of seeming weak, he kept his depression from his club.

"For the last few years of my footy career I kind of just lived with it on my own," he says.

"And one thing I've learned about depression is that it gets masked a lot by fitness. Over those last few years I had a few injuries and stuff and wasn't doing as much training - that's when I really felt it."

At his lowest point, two years ago, Robbins struggled to go on.

Today he's feeling better and keen to raise awareness. If there's a link between concussion and his depression he wants to know.



ROBBINS began to wonder after hearing the stories of serveral players in American football.

The issue gathered speed last year after Chicago Bears' Dave Duerson claimed the head traumas he had received on the field had caused irreparable damage to his brain.

Duerson shot himself in the chest and died last year after sending a text message asking that his brain be studied.

Medical examinations found evidence Duerson had suffered from a neuro degenerative disease linked to concussions and other repetitive head traumas. Then came Andrew Krakouer.

Management for the Magpies star revealed in February they were investigating a possible connection between his mental health issues and head knocks he has suffered.

"It is quite clear that if you've had multiple hits to the head, there can be a casual relationship with mental health issues," Krakouer's agent Peter Jess said.

The AFL hit back.

"There definitely is not a clear link between head injury and depression that we can identify at this stage," AFL chief medical officer Dr Hugh Seward said.



TODAY Robbins's life is back on track. He's off medication and plays local footy.

The love of his life are his three children - daughter Luca, 6, and boys James, 4 and Tommy, 3.

He hopes that when it's their turn to play much more is known about concussion. Robbins says: "Being a parent, I'm worried about their safety. My boys are young, but you can already tell they're super keen and itch to play.

"I just hope things get put in place, so if they play the game and someone does get knocked out they don't get any future problems."

[bulldogtragic]

I think we fail to appreciate just how hard footy at all levels is on the body and mind. A very real case of what players of the modern form of the game have, it's in every sense hard. You don't need to punch or elbow blokes to be hard.

[bornadog]

Good luck to Hamling for his first game with the RWB and AFL

http://s.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL%20Tenant/WesternBulldogs/Player%20Profiles/2015%20-%20Profiles/HAMLING%20Joel.png

Height 194 cm
DOB 09-04-1993
Weight 88 kg

[F'scary]

Go Hamlet!

[comrade]

Hasn't put a foot wrong since coming to the Dogs. Glad he's been given a crack, though hopefully he's not expected to line up on Jezza Cameron all game. Tough initiation into the RWB if that's the case.

[LostDoggy]

Great to see Porkfish make his debut this week :)
Keep in mind that at Geelong the Coaching Staff had Tommy Hawkins do one on one drills with Hamling as it was the most awkward matchup for Tommy , he was bigger and stronger than Joel but was often out positioned and Joel's agility and reach negated Tommy's physical advantage

[Greystache]

Hasn't put a foot wrong since coming to the Dogs. Glad he's been given a crack, though hopefully he's not expected to line up on Jezza Cameron all game. Tough initiation into the RWB if that's the case.

Didn't Tom Young give Cameron a bath early last year? I expect Hamling to keep him statless!!

[Twodogs]

Didn't Tom Young give Cameron a bath early last year? I expect Hamling to keep him statless!!

Stat. Less.

[Webby]

C'mon. Djerrkura.

Kenny Newland was okay, as was Bluey Hampshire. Bernard Toohey was a roundabout ex Cat who was alright, too.

But the Peter Streets and Djerkurras well and truly balance it out. Ming you, I think we sent them Lynton Fitzpatrick a few years back. Also, the young kid from Year of the Dog who had cancer didn't kick on for them. All in all, not much decent business between the two clubs. Hopefully Hamling's an exception.

I was starting to lose a bit of faith in him after really liking him initially. However he was good on Sunday. His kicking might be a worry - that's the only concern.. Handball to Webb at all costs, I say!'

[Twodogs]

Kenny Newland was okay, as was Bluey Hampshire. Bernard Toohey was a roundabout ex Cat who was alright, too.

But the Peter Streets and Djerkurras well and truly balance it out. Ming you, I think we sent them Lynton Fitzpatrick a few years back. Also, the young kid from Year of the Dog who had cancer didn't kick on for them. All in all, not much decent business between the two clubs. Hopefully Hamling's an exception.

I was starting to lose a bit of faith in him after really liking him initially. However he was good on Sunday. His kicking might be a worry - that's the only concern.. Handball to Webb at all costs, I say!'

Alec Eason was a good one from them too.

[boydogs]

I'm expecting big things, hope he does well

[Remi Moses]

Good luck to the young bloke, and certainly waited a while for his debut

[Ozza]

Great to see Hamling debut. Last week's VFL was the first time I'd seen him play live. I found myself thinking - 'geez the kid in number 30 looks a good player, very athletic', and then eventually remembered who he was!

[bornadog]

Bevo: Joel Hamling will play a key defensive role for us tomorrow, he could line up on Jeremy Cameron at different times tomorrow.

I guess he has the athleticism to go with him.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Alec Eason was a good one from them too.

Matthew Robbins?

[Sedat]

Alec Eason was a good one from them too.
Thread needs more Stephen Lunn

[Sedat]

.....

[bornadog]

Hamling Jumper Presentation from the Great Ross Abbey

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/2015-05-29/joel-hamling-guernsey-presentation

[Twodogs]

Thread needs more Stephen Lunn


It was Stephen Lunn who made and installed that big bulldog that used to be over the players entrance.

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

Where is that big bulldog? Landfill?

[Twodogs]

Where is that big bulldog? Landfill?


I was wondering the same thing myself. It's not like you could put it somewhere and then forget about it., it's the size of a car.

[Remi Moses]

Thread needs more Stephen Lunn

I thought his name was windows.

[comrade]

Hamling Jumper Presentation from the Great Ross Abbey

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/2015-05-29/joel-hamling-guernsey-presentation

Enjoyed that. Obviously means a lot to former Bulldogs players to hand the torch over.

[Eastdog]

I wish him good luck tomorrow in his debut for the red white and blue. Hope he troubles there forwards.

[Ghost Dog]

The spirit of Matty Robbins lives in that jumper.

[Eastdog]

Good to see you on more of late Ghost Dog.

[GVGjr]

Hamling comes across as a very relaxed and shy type who doesn't enjoy the attention. On the field he has a bit of spirit though.
I'm looking forward to seeing how he goes tomorrow night.

[comrade]

Hamling comes across as a very relaxed and shy type who doesn't enjoy the attention. On the field he has a bit of spirit though.
I'm looking forward to seeing how he goes tomorrow night.

Reminiscent of Shaggy in more ways than one.

[SonofScray]

Reminiscent of Shaggy in more ways than one.

He does remind me of Shaggy but perhaps has more capacity for athletic feats, seems to have a big leap and a bit more flair with his run and carry. Glad he gets a shot this week given some decent form at VFL. I get the impression this kid is made of the right stuff.

[Go_Dogs]

I've been eagerly awaiting his debut. He's a great fit for our backline with his size and athleticism, hopefully a bloke that can play on talls and smalls.

Going to be a tough game to debut in, given he'll likely face a range of opponents who all offer something a little bit different.

[EasternWest]

Matthew Robbins?

Super player. Gave everything every game.

[GVGjr]

I watched the post match interview with Hamling. He strikes me as the type who wouldn't be hanging around the club much more than what is expected of him.
Genuinely excited to see where he might best fit into our team. His athleticism is something we need.

[whythelongface]

Good solid debut and competed well. Looks comfortable with the ball in hand.

Think there was one contest where he was out positioned by Cameron but overall really liked his game and keen to see him continue to stay in the team.

[Go_Dogs]

I watched the post match interview with Hamling. He strikes me as the type who wouldn't be hanging around the club much more than what is expected of him.
Genuinely excited to see where he might best fit into our team. His athleticism is something we need.

Agreed, seemed pretty quiet and reserved about his first game.

He's potentially a pretty important piece of our puzzle down back. Will be interesting to see how he develops over the balance of the season.

[boydogs]

He strikes me as the type who wouldn't be hanging around the club much more than what is expected of him.

He was running laps at the club before preseason started

[Remi Moses]

MJP will be very pleased

[bornadog]

MJP will be very pleased

He did tell us he was going to be a good player.

[Ozza]

Those early spoils were pretty important in helping set the tone for the day. Great closing speed.
Interesting to hear him say that he expected the game to be much quicker.
One of the few debutants that don't find that in their first game (just going by interviews with other debutants)

[SlimPickens]

Those early spoils were pretty important in helping set the tone for the day. Great closing speed.
Interesting to hear him say that he expected the game to be much quicker.
One of the few debutants that don't find that in their first game (just going by interviews with other debutants)

Good compliment to his teammates, slowing the game down for our defenders.

[Bulldog4life]

Thought he came across when interviewed as a very level headed young man and not at all over awed with the game

[LostDoggy]

I play mixed futsal on a Sunday night at Whitten Oval, and was doing a lap of the oval to warm up last night. Hamling was there training with a mate. If he's going to be training at 1930 on a Sunday night at the start of November, I'm happy we've got him on the list. Good luck Joel!

I've liked the kid since that night in November, and have watched him very closely at a fair few VFL games this year. I have infinite respect for guys who show they have the ticker, even if the talents are somewhat short, and in Hammer's case I don't think they are even that short. Rapt he made his debut and even more rapt that he played so well. I'm definitely on the Hammer Wagon.

[Twodogs]

The hammer wagon sounds like something from trainspotting.

[F'scary]

The hammer wagon sounds like something from trainspotting.

as opposed to the play about the noble house of Denmark?

[Twodogs]

as opposed to the play about the noble house of Denmark?


Turning into a literary thread.

[F'scary]

Turning into a literary thread.

When you have Bob Murphy as Captain and Will Minson as 1st ruck, it is not surprising.

[1eyedog]

Geelong will end up spewing about this one. This guy will end up being better than any defensive player Geelong will play after Taylor and Lonergan retire.

[whythelongface]

He was pretty good on Saturday night. He gets to the contest and spoils well. Very good pick up by our recruiting team.

[Doc26]

I watched the post match interview with Hamling. He strikes me as the type who wouldn't be hanging around the club much more than what is expected of him.
Genuinely excited to see where he might best fit into our team. His athleticism is something we need.

I found his post match to be one of the more mature, refreshingly honest, and considered responses that I've heard from a debutant, granted that he has been in the system for a couple of years.

I'm struggling to see the correlation in his response to your opinion that he strikes you as the type who wouldn't be hanging around the club much more than what is expected of him.

I actually heard a little bit of Harry Taylor in him from the way he seemed to consider his game.

[Greystache]

I found his post match to be one of the more mature, refreshingly honest, and considered responses that I've heard from a debutant, granted that he has been in the system for a couple of years.

I'm struggling to see the correlation in his response to your opinion that he strikes you as the type who wouldn't be hanging around the club much more than what is expected of him.

I actually heard a little bit of Harry Taylor in him from the way he seemed to consider his game.

Ironically Harry Taylor was his mentor at Geelong and he didn't like him because he was "too into football".

[Doc26]

Ironically Harry Taylor was his mentor at Geelong and he didn't like him because he was "too into football".

Really ! That seems odd from someone (i.e. HT) who carries around his own dossier on all his opponents traits, strengths and weaknesses. Joel must be off the scale.

[Greystache]

Really ! That seems odd from someone (i.e. HT) who carries around his own dossier on all his opponents traits, strengths and weaknesses. Joel must be off the scale.

Other way around, Harry was too into football and Hamling didn't like him. Joel is off the scale in the other direction.

[LostDoggy]

I watched the post match interview with Hamling. He strikes me as the type who wouldn't be hanging around the club much more than what is expected of him.
Genuinely excited to see where he might best fit into our team. His athleticism is something we need.

Interesting this. I agree his presser seemed to lack a bit of the enthusiasm you might have expected from a first gamer who came away with a great win. I did go to the Frankston game the next day though and Hammer was there to support the boys (dressed in double denim I might add). From all the training I've seen him in and the games he has played for Footscray and Western Bulldogs, he is definitely on board.

[F'scary]

Go with how he is playing - so far so good. Could be a gem of a recruitment.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Didn't see all of the game v Port, but I like that he anticipates the play - he isn't afraid to leave his man to impact a contest 20m in front of him. He's been caught out doing this a couple of times but he naturally does it quite well for a guy who hasn't played senior footy. All good defenders do this.

Skills look quite good and he's obviously a very good athlete who spoils well. Perhaps needs to keep his feet a little more, but either way, there is a lot to work with here - on face value I am surprised Geelong let him go.

[1eyedog]

Interesting this. I agree his presser seemed to lack a bit of the enthusiasm you might have expected from a first gamer who came away with a great win. I did go to the Frankston game the next day though and Hammer was there to support the boys (dressed in double denim I might add). From all the training I've seen him in and the games he has played for Footscray and Western Bulldogs, he is definitely on board.

I thought he was perhaps a bit nervous in front of the camera. He wouldn't have done much if any media in Geelong and he is by all reports a shy, country boy.

[anfo27]

Was super impressed with this kid against Port. Did a couple of really impressive things that i don't see too often. We have found another player here and well done to whoever is responsible for being impressed enough to give him another shot.

[bulldogtragic]

I don't want too go early seeing as Tom Young played a few early ok games, but this kid doesn't play like a delisted and game less tall project type player.

[LostDoggy]

I don't want to go early seeing as Tom Young played a few early ok games, but this kid doesn't play like a delisted and game less tall project type player.

He's solid. Good pickup no matter where or how he ends up.

[Twodogs]

I don't want to go early seeing as Tom Young played a few early ok games, but this kid doesn't play like a delisted and game less tall project type player.

He's the the player we effectively gave up any hope of getting Jayden Foster to give a spot to. The club called it right.

[G-Mo77]

I don't want to go early seeing as Tom Young played a few early ok games, but this kid doesn't play like a delisted and game less tall project type player.

Don't even make a comparison between the two BT. ☺

Happy to eat my words on Hamling. I was pretty disappointed we went for him. He's done everything right so far.

[bulldogtragic]

He's the the player we effectively gave up any hope of getting Jayden Foster to give a spot to. The club called it right.

A bit early on Jayden, he kicked a couple last week when Jones kicked one. So he's already twice as good as Jones... :)

But yep, a solid decision.

[boydogs]

I don't want too go early seeing as Tom Young played a few early ok games, but this kid doesn't play like a delisted and game less tall project type player.

Tom Young was good early, no idea what happened

[Twodogs]

A bit early on Jayden, he kicked a couple last week when Jones kicked one. So he's already twice as good as Jones... :)

But yep, a solid decision.

Jaiyden could be a good player for the Blues but Hamling fits our style perfectly. He's a good kick and thinks quickly when he has the ball. He has good balance too. He can jump and compete in the marking contest the land on his feet and compete in the contest or provide an option.

Jayden would be fourth in line for a spot in the forward line or the backline at best.

[SonofScray]

Hamling is looking every bit the AFL standard defender. Reading the play well, playing within his limitations and the defensive system which sees the boys work as a back six rather than 6 isolated man on man contests. He is managing the physical side of the game OK, covering a lot of space and being aggressive with his spoils. Enjoying what he has dished up since being given a chance.

[lemmon]

Bit of the Matthew Scarlett dead pan attitude about him with these quotes:

But what about finally cracking an AFL game 1283 days after he was drafted one pick before dual premiership Hawk Brad Hill?

“To be honest I wasn’t really excited,” Hamling said.

“I knew I’d eventually make it but when it finally came around I didn’t get excited or emotional, I went and did what I had to.

“Now I’m (four) games into an AFL career for (three) wins and that’s exciting.”

From this article: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/joel-hamling-loves-life-at-the-western-bulldogs/story-fni5fazt-1227419057882

[Twodogs]

Bit of the Matthew Scarlett dead pan attitude about him with these quotes:

But what about finally cracking an AFL game 1283 days after he was drafted one pick before dual premiership Hawk Brad Hill?

“To be honest I wasn’t really excited,” Hamling said.

“I knew I’d eventually make it but when it finally came around I didn’t get excited or emotional, I went and did what I had to.

“Now I’m (four) games into an AFL career for (three) wins and that’s exciting.”

From this article: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/joel-hamling-loves-life-at-the-western-bulldogs/story-fni5fazt-1227419057882

A bit Chris Mew even.

[bornadog]

How good has Hamling been since he played his first game. Has been rarely beaten and plays like he is a veteran of the game. Hard to believe he has only played 7 AFL games.

[josie]

I'm a big fan, he is more mobile than Talia and Roberts and has good disposal - can kick it quite long and does not seem to get flustered. I think he, Roberts and Z Cordy and possibly Talia will be our KPD stalwarts in years to come.

[1eyedog]

How good has Hamling been since he played his first game. Has been rarely beaten and plays like he is a veteran of the game. Hard to believe he has only played 7 AFL games.

Sensational. He'll match up really well on Gunston on Grand Final day.

[comrade]

Took a couple of really tough marks on the weekend. One over Hogan if I remember correctly? That was sweet.

[GVGjr]

How good has Hamling been since he played his first game. Has been rarely beaten and plays like he is a veteran of the game. Hard to believe he has only played 7 AFL games.

Once he learns how to use his elite pace to run off the opposition players he could potentially be a vastly better player. If he really devotes himself to footy he could just keep improving.

He's ahead of where I thought he might be in his first season with us.

[bornadog]

Took a couple of really tough marks on the weekend. One over Hogan if I remember correctly? That was sweet.

Did you notice a couple of times he took off and made himself available, on his own almost on the wing. His confidence is growing and will be a good player for us.

[1eyedog]

Took a couple of really tough marks on the weekend. One over Hogan if I remember correctly? That was sweet.

What I like is that although he is slight he competes really well in the air against the big guys and holds his ground well. Certainly punches above his weight in the contest which is attributed to his 3 years learning his trade against the likes of Hawkins. He's just so versatile.

[bornadog]

What I like is that although he is slight he competes really well in the air against the big guys and holds his ground well. Certainly punches above his weight in the contest which is attributed to his 3 years learning his trade against the likes of Hawkins. He's just so versatile.

Played forward as well in the VFL so we can always switch him every now and then.

[F'scary]

I'm a big fan, he is more mobile than Talia and Roberts and has good disposal - can kick it quite long and does not seem to get flustered. I think he, Roberts and Z Cordy and possibly Talia will be our KPD stalwarts in years to come.

I reckon Talia is just about there too. With all 3 of the above (Hamling, Roberts, Talia) who have played senior footy, you can see there is still plenty of development to come.

[Twodogs]

He is a chance to hold CHB down for the next five years at least. He seems to know when to stay and when to run down the ground.

I really wanted us to draft Fossie jr but if we gave his spot on the list to Hamling then I am very happy.

[Mantis]

Once he learns how to use his elite pace to run off the opposition players he could potentially be a vastly better player. If he really devotes himself to footy he could just keep improving.

He's ahead of where I thought he might be in his first season with us.

Are you hearing that this isn't the case at present?

[GVGjr]

Are you hearing that this isn't the case at present?

I think I've mentioned it before but I believe football is a job for him and he isn't one to live football like so many other younger players. It's the reason why I believe he never got his chance at Geelong and why I think he has so much upside if he just dedicates himself to being the best player he can. He's don't a lot more than I expected of him this year and I think even a move to the forward line might be a possibility somewhere down the track.

[bulldogtragic]

Can someone enlighten me please? What has happened to Hamling this year?

[GVGjr]

Can someone enlighten me please? What has happened to Hamling this year?

I heard earlier in the year he was massively down on confidence which was a problem for him.

[bulldogtragic]

I heard earlier in the year he was massively down on confidence which was a problem for him.

But we are coming into round 18, with finals likely for both teams. From best first year player 2015 to treading water for nearly a season has me stumped. As I ponder my list of candidates for delisting, he's for the first time made it into my seriously consider category. Which is staggering because he was probably the most likely first picked tall defender (after Morris) and is now firmly behind Adams, Morris & Roberts and arguably behind Cordy and lesser extent Collins. I wonder if he's in our plans if he doesn't turn his funk around?

[GVGjr]

But we are coming into round 18, with finals likely for both teams. From best first year player 2015 to treading water for nearly a season has me stumped. As I ponder my list of candidates for delisting, he's for the first time made it into my seriously consider category. Which is staggering because he was probably the most likely first picked tall defender (after Morris) and is now firmly behind Adams, Morris & Roberts and arguably behind Cordy and lesser extent Collins. I wonder if he's in our plans if he doesn't turn his funk around?

He might be a candidate. He doesn't live and breathe footy like so many others do so when you are down on form and confidence it makes the task of getting back into a side that is performing well so much harder.

I think we should or could give him some opportunities before the end of the season so that if he is needed during finals it's a bit easier to make the transition.

We haven't seen the best of him yet so it would a hard call in my opinion to let him go.

[jeemak]

BT, is it just a matter of him being down the pecking order and missing out because we have preference for team defence and small defenders?

[ledge]

He did well today and played forward at times . Took a great mark up forward in the last quarter

[bulldogtragic]

BT, is it just a matter of him being down the pecking order and missing out because we have preference for team defence and small defenders?

Yes and no. The player we saw last year probably is playing right now though. I've heard some talk about his speed, but he doesn't seem to use it or take the game on like others are this year. Talia really struggled with Bevo's system, neh couldn't understand anything at all, so maybe he's struggling with this year's adaptation/evolution. I think the last two years have shown if you play the system and to your strengthes you get a game, even if there are 10 other inside mids playing. I'm more than anything trying to understand how he's won best first year playe and looked solid, to this year treading water at Footscray while he's being overtaken. I'm not suggesting I want him cut, but I'm struggling with his arrested development and if we need to cut 4 or 5 there's going to be hard calls like perhaps Hamilton or Hamling for cutting. More than anything I'm trying to understand where he's at and why.

[Remi Moses]

Not for delisting for me . We need to bat deep, and injuries are a given .
He'll

[Bulldog4life]

But we are coming into round 18, with finals likely for both teams. From best first year player 2015 to treading water for nearly a season has me stumped. As I ponder my list of candidates for delisting, he's for the first time made it into my seriously consider category. Which is staggering because he was probably the most likely first picked tall defender (after Morris) and is now firmly behind Adams, Morris & Roberts and arguably behind Cordy and lesser extent Collins. I wonder if he's in our plans if he doesn't turn his funk around?

Maybe the Club should turn him into a forward player full time. Give him a good run in this role.

[Mofra]

Zaine Cordy's improvement and Marcus Adams hitting his straps quickly have really put Hamling below a few in the pecking order.
I'm all for KPD depth and want to retain him but he is realistically behind quite a few, especially noting Dad had 25 touches in his last VFL game and Zaine was apparently supurb on Sunday.

[LostDoggy]

It would be great if he could provide depth at either end until he maybe forces his way into the side.

[stefoid]

Develop him as a forward.

[josie]

I really hope we do not delist him. I think he is a good mark and has reasonable footy smarts. When he was playing with confidence last year I thought he was quite good. This year he is being knocked off ball much easier (and at VFL level), and yes he is lightly framed, however my guess is it is largely to do with confidence.

He is quite agile and reasonably good at ground level, so I'm wondering if he could rotate b/w wing & forward a be great backline backup too? Not sure what his tank is like, maybe that needs to be worked on.

I think of some of Geelong's great backmen of the last 10 or so years e.g. Scarlett and they were not that big in the frame.

For those of you who have played footy.....Does being a good backmen have as much to do with being canny enough to have good position etc. so you are not knocked off the ball easily, as it does with having a large frame? (Morris a case in point).

[bulldogtragic]

Bump.

Whenever Joel's name gets mentioned threads get sidetracked about Joel and his trade. So this is me saying, read the last few pages and remember how things really where, not what we've romanced.

I've spent 20 minutes going through VFL reports from 2016 and it's not great reading for those who remember Joel dominating everything. He simply wasn't and a fair few posters above (me included) were scratching our heads about why Joel was going backwards. He was even playing as a forward, even when there was no real need, other than a lack of effective footy at VFL level.

So here we are, July 2016, and there's no way Hamling is getting a multi year deal. He's doing very little while Morris, Cordy, Roberts, Adams & Collins (temporarily) looked to the main tall defenders. We simply couldn't sign him at the time with low output such as he had. What we know for a fact is that around this time Freo identified and and his best mate, Shane Kersten, were playing VFL footy and might get tempted back to WA and play with each other. They seemingly agreed which is fine. But then there's the late season call up and Joel plays every game to October 1, 2016. An outcome against all odds in July 2016. But by then the contracts and moreso the plans would've been in place with Freo & Kersten.

As GVGjr points out a few times in the last few pages of this thread, Hamling had a particular outlook about his footy which may or may not have stunted his development. It's clear that it's no longer an impediment. Can I leave this discussion with a parallel point? If you've ever broken up with someone, there's the temptation to romanticise the time with the other person or how the relationship ended and rush back in. An unwise move. Which is why one should step back and look at everything at the time, how it was, why it was, and have correct context:

- Joel was playing some really poor VFL footy as a defender, then poorly as a forward, by July 2016.
- We couldn't responsibly offer a contract about now (July 2016), Freo (in desperation) did. And used a hostage in Kersten to keep it together.
- Hamling gets on a Cinderella run against all odds. But it's done.
- The apparent issues about how Joel saw footy have obviously passed.
- We got the best trade possible, and over the past 3 years with Freo is
--- Outs: Hamling, Pick 40
--- Ins: Crozier, Pick 35>26 Lipinski, 2018 4th rounder, 2019 3rd rounder (via points trade with Freo, into North, for Saints 3rd)

I guess you'll see it whatever way you want, but Joel could've almost been cut for nothing. After about 9 weeks, he went into pick 35, which we upgraded into pick 26, Lipinski. That's a good return from 9 weeks I'd argue. If he failed at Freo, we'd be laughing. He's kicked on, so good recruiting to them all. We got Crozier back, voted most courageous in his first year with us and is arguably our most consistent medium defender for 18 months. I'm not sure why this ground keeps going over.

[G-Mo77]

Regardless of how poor he was early in 2016 he finished as our best KPD. We got pick 35 for him? Yeah we turned it into this and then moved it for that and that's great but our initial return for him was deplorable.

[1eyedog]

Came for nothing, was a vital cog of the entire finals including the Premiership, left and we got 35 for him. I've moved on.

[jeemak]

What would we have paid for Hamling if the shoe was on the other foot? I reckon there would be a lot of pissed off people if we gave up more than pick 35 for him, given he'd only had solid football behind him for a few months irrespective of four of these solid games being finals.

Plus, you're only able to retrieve what the market is willing to pay, and when you've got only one buyer in the market, possibly two the market is likely yield you a smaller return for what you're selling. We could have held firm, but that wouldn't have helped as we'd have lost him for nothing via the preseason draft. With all of this considered, what would we have expected pay for him if the roles were reversed?

[Remi Moses]

Funny seeing people wanting him delisted !

[G-Mo77]

What would we have paid for Hamling if the shoe was on the other foot? I reckon there would be a lot of pissed off people if we gave up more than pick 35 for him, given he'd only had solid football behind him for a few months irrespective of four of these solid games being finals.

Plus, you're only able to retrieve what the market is willing to pay, and when you've got only one buyer in the market, possibly two the market is likely yield you a smaller return for what you're selling. We could have held firm, but that wouldn't have helped as we'd have lost him for nothing via the preseason draft. With all of this considered, what would we have expected pay for him if the roles were reversed?

His value at that time was at it's peak and considering his output now I would have been happy to give one inside top 20. That being said when you're over a barrell...... I think we could have done better. I think we could have made Freo work a little harder to get a higher pick instead of taking what they had.

I've moved on from it, at the time I was happy to let him go and show good faith for what he did for us. Still nothing wrong with thinking about what ifs even when the mob shout you down, which is the norm in here when you go against the grain.

[jeemak]

His value at that time was at it's peak and considering his output now I would have been happy to give one inside top 20. That being said when you're over a barrell...... I think we could have done better. I think we could have made Freo work a little harder to get a higher pick instead of taking what they had.

I've moved on from it, at the time I was happy to let him go and show good faith for what he did for us. Still nothing wrong with thinking about what ifs even when the mob shout you down, which is the norm in here when you go against the grain.

If your second paragraph's last section is directed towards me then I'm sorry you feel you're being shouted down. I find turning trades on their heads is a good way to look at the arguments differently, because there's always an imbalance between what people are willing to pay versus what they believe they should receive.

You are correct in saying his value was at its peak as far as his career was concerned, and that may have been why we were able to secure a second round selection for him. The trade of late picks evened out, and we possibly had our eye on pick 23 which was given up for Bradley Hill for Fremantle to get him across from Hawthorn - and to me at the time that would have been overs for Hamling.

West Coast traded late picks for Mitchell and Vardy, and I'm not sure they even dealt with us over Hamling.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that sometimes there's just no more value to unlock within a deal, especially when you're only able to negotiate with fixed tangible negotiating chips like draft picks, future picks, players and salary. If your point is you're looking at things retrospectively and believe we got the raw end (which I think you are, because you would give up a pick in the top twenty for him based on his current output which I probably wouldn't do) then fine. I just think sometimes we get carried away when looking back thinking more could and should have been done to get a better deal for our players and or not overpay for players we bring in.

[hujsh]

If your second paragraph's last section is directed towards me then I'm sorry you feel you're being shouted down. I find turning trades on their heads is a good way to look at the arguments differently, because there's always an imbalance between what people are willing to pay versus what they believe they should receive.

You are correct in saying his value was at its peak as far as his career was concerned, and that may have been why we were able to secure a second round selection for him. The trade of late picks evened out, and we possibly had our eye on pick 23 which was given up for Bradley Hill for Fremantle to get him across from Hawthorn - and to me at the time that would have been overs for Hamling.

West Coast traded late picks for Mitchell and Vardy, and I'm not sure they even dealt with us over Hamling.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that sometimes there's just no more value to unlock within a deal, especially when you're only able to negotiate with fixed tangible negotiating chips like draft picks, future picks, players and salary. If your point is you're looking at things retrospectively and believe we got the raw end (which I think you are, because you would give up a pick in the top twenty for him based on his current output which I probably wouldn't do) then fine. I just think sometimes we get carried away when looking back thinking more could and should have been done to get a better deal for our players and or not overpay for players we bring in.

I'd almost suggest he's worth more now as and established, clearly excellent defender than as a guy who had a great month in a premiership team but might go back to struggling in the VFL for all we knew. Was what happened to Fletch.

[jeemak]

I'd almost suggest he's worth more now as and established, clearly excellent defender than as a guy who had a great month in a premiership team but might go back to struggling in the VFL for all we knew. Was what happened to Fletch.

I meant to date, prior to the 2016 trade period and after the run of form.

Agree his value would be higher now.

[boydogs]

We got Crozier back, voted most courageous in his first year with us and is arguably our most consistent medium defender for 18 months

Why add this?

[bulldogtragic]

Why add this?

Because it's part of a relationship of professional goodwill we've built with Freo. One can see the Hamling trade in only isolation, or rather as one of many trades over the past three years that highlights a good working relationship where both clubs have been better off.

[Twodogs]

Because it's part of a relationship of professional goodwill we've built with Freo. One can see the Hamling trade in only isolation, or rather as one of many trades over the past three years that highlights a good working relationship where both clubs have been better off.

Anytime they want to swap Hamling back for Crozier I'm happy to do it. I like Crozier but he ain't Joel Hamling nor does he have the effect on games that Joel has.

[boydogs]

Because it's part of a relationship of professional goodwill we've built with Freo. One can see the Hamling trade in only isolation, or rather as one of many trades over the past three years that highlights a good working relationship where both clubs have been better off.

I think having to look at it that way to justify the Hamling trade shows you're reaching

We lost out on Hamling, and did well with Crozier, but I don't see them as one transaction. Very dangerous to operate that way, assuming that was even the case, as staff and attitudes change from year to year

[jeemak]

I think having to look at it that way to justify the Hamling trade shows you're reaching

We lost out on Hamling, and did well with Crozier, but I don't see them as one transaction. Very dangerous to operate that way, assuming that was even the case, as staff and attitudes change from year to year

Tend to agree. Whether we could help it we lost out with Hamling, he's become a really good player for Fremantle. But, Crozier has become a better player with us. The transactions aren't linked as far as we know, but in my view we traded fairly and each club received a better outcome than from where they were.

That's how trading should be. Countries don't trade with each other to make one stronger or weaker than the other, they trade to make each other better (in principle). That's how the AFL is and is supposed to be - rather than bending each other over, but we as fans lose that perspective from time to time.

[1eyedog]

Because it's part of a relationship of professional goodwill we've built with Freo. One can see the Hamling trade in only isolation, or rather as one of many trades over the past three years that highlights a good working relationship where both clubs have been better off.

Do you honestly believe goodwill has anything to do with how a trade turns out? Recruiters are focused on one thing, the best outcome for their club.

[bulldogtragic]

In short, I'm not losing sleep over this trade. For three years both clubs have traded well with each other. I see a continuum of the last three years, I'm not linking one trade specifically with another. I see the micro and macro perspective of the trade. It does seem like we need to relitigate the past though. If it wasn't this trade, it would be the Brian Lake trade still being brought up.

[Ghost Dog]

Do you honestly believe goodwill has anything to do with how a trade turns out? Recruiters are focused on one thing, the best outcome for their club.

A lot of people will disagree with you there.

"Critics from rival clubs would say the Bombers had not traded picks because they were harder to deal with than the Senate crossbench. Alternatively, one could say they valued their picks too highly to part with them. Whatever the cause, they did not trade in seasoned quality (Brendon Goddard was a free agent)." Jake Niall
April 27, 2019

[G-Mo77]

In short, I'm not losing sleep over this trade. For three years both clubs have traded well with each other. I see a continuum of the last three years, I'm not linking one trade specifically with another. I see the micro and macro perspective of the trade. It does seem like we need to relitigate the past though. If it wasn't this trade, it would be the Brian Lake trade still being brought up.

Don't get me started again. ;)

[bulldogtragic]

Don't get me started again. ;)

Hrovat will be a gun. :D

[bornadog]

Hrovat will be a gun. :D

as will the Jones boy :D

[Vred]

Garry Lyon I reporting Joel Hamling has walked away from the Freo Football club. It’s also being reported Joel flew from GC to Melbourne on June 29th to meet with David Young.

Do we actively go after Joel? What defensive role can he fill for us?

[GVGjr]

Garry Lyon I reporting Joel Hamling has walked away from the Freo Football club. It’s also being reported Joel flew from GC to Melbourne on June 29th to meet with David Young.

Do we actively go after Joel? What defensive role can he fill for us?

I would be letting him know we can provide an opportunity for him.

[The Doctor]

Bring the Hammer home!

[Grantysghost]

Have to be in his ear. Wonder whats gone wrong there.

[EasternWest]

I would be letting him know we can provide an opportunity for him.

27 years old, plenty of good footy in him.

#bringhamlinghome

[Happy Days]

Freo might've pushed him before he jumped. They have a lot of good quality KPD players even if they aren't in the side right now, and Luke Ryan has probably gone from an intercept player to the top of the pile.

Plus maybe his injury is worse that publicly known.

[Sedat]

Freo might've pushed him before he jumped. They have a lot of good quality KPD players even if they aren't in the side right now, and Luke Ryan has probably gone from an intercept player to the top of the pile.

Plus maybe his injury is worse that publicly known.
This is my worry with Hamling as well. Freo have Alex Pearce waiting in the wings in key defence as well, who is a jet albeit injury prone.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I would take him back NO PROBLEM.

[bornadog]

I would take him back NO PROBLEM.

If you look at the Grand final team, we lost 4 players to other clubs, the rest of the guys gone all retired. Hamling, Roughead, Stringer and Dahl. Hamling is the only one I would take back. Lots of respect for Roughead, but the way we play, he doesn't suit our style.

[Axe Man]

I would take him back NO PROBLEM.

And for half the price we sold him for since Freo have damaged him whilst in their possession.;)

[G-Mo77]

Come home Hammer.

[Rocket Science]

Feels like we've basically spent the whole post-flag period trying to find or fashion an adequate replacement for Hamling.

[G-Mo77]

Feels like we've basically spent the whole post-flag period trying to find or fashion an adequate replacement for Hamling.

Roughead would have helped. I wish we had him post 2016.....oh wait.

[bornadog]

Roughead would have helped. I wish we had him post 2016.....oh wait.

Do you think he fits into the way we play now?

[azabob]

I read this last night and didn't think too much of it... but now....

Hamling's agent Colin Young was last year scathing of the club's medical department after his client Shane Kersten was forced to depart following a long-term foot injury.

"Shane and the club will part ways at the end of the week amicably and Shane will do his rehab under a different set of eyes," Young told The West Australian in July last year.

"I have serious concerns on how the club rehabilitates its players (and) it's my opinion that this area of the club needs an immediate review.

"Immediate changes need to be made or the club is going nowhere."


https://www.afl.com.au/news/485138/injured-docker-seeks-second-opinion-on-troublesome-ankle-issue

[Axe Man]

I read this last night and didn't think too much of it... but now....

Hamling's agent Colin Young was last year scathing of the club's medical department after his client Shane Kersten was forced to depart following a long-term foot injury.

"Shane and the club will part ways at the end of the week amicably and Shane will do his rehab under a different set of eyes," Young told The West Australian in July last year.

"I have serious concerns on how the club rehabilitates its players (and) it's my opinion that this area of the club needs an immediate review.

"Immediate changes need to be made or the club is going nowhere."


https://www.afl.com.au/news/485138/injured-docker-seeks-second-opinion-on-troublesome-ankle-issue

Aren't Kersten and Hamling best mates? Starting to become clear why Hamling isn't happy. Alex Pearce should be getting out of there as well. Hayden Young can come and join his brother.

[G-Mo77]

Do you think he fits into the way we play now?

A reliable defender who could also help out with ruck duties, sure. You don't think we could find a spot for him?

[1eyedog]

A reliable defender who could also help out with ruck duties, sure. You don't think we could find a spot for him?

Does he take Cordy's place in the team, so Cordy out? Would Bevo play Keath, Hamling and Cordy in the same team?

[azabob]

Aren't Kersten and Hamling best mates? Starting to become clear why Hamling isn't happy. Alex Pearce should be getting out of there as well. Hayden Young can come and join his brother.

Yeah I read they were.

[kruder]

Does he take Cordy's place in the team, so Cordy out? Would Bevo play Keath, Hamling and Cordy in the same team?

I reckon you can play all three, Keath can be used as an attacking intercepter, he is a lovely kick too.

[EasternWest]

Does he take Cordy's place in the team, so Cordy out? Would Bevo play Keath, Hamling and Cordy in the same team?

Cordy, Keath Hamling
Crozier, Daniel, Wood/Duryea

Works for me.

[Axe Man]

Does he take Cordy's place in the team, so Cordy out? Would Bevo play Keath, Hamling and Cordy in the same team?

They were talking about Roughead.

[Testekill]

Would love to bring Hammer back into the fold

[comrade]

Until he nominates the Dogs as his destination, I won’t be getting excited. We have very few trade assets this year.

[soupman]

We have very few trade assets this year.

This could be irrelevant.

I know nothing official has been said, and I have no idea what the actual plan is, but if the initial rumours of much smaller squad sizes happens (say 35 which means you cut 10+) then trade assets might not matter.

Consider:
-Every club will need to get rid of 10 players. A player who wants out is an easy cut instead of cutting someone who wants to stay. So if Hamling goes it means they can keep someone they like like Lachie Schultz.
-The draft is stuffed. No junior footy, no exposed form, academy picks, father son picks. Even the good picks are much more of a lottery than normal. Why bother holding out for something good for a player that will command you something like a pick in the 20s at best anyway?
-Trading players in is going to be difficult, because that means another player you probably rate gets cut. Again if Freo wanted to bring someone in it's at the expense of Lachie Schultz. You already have to cut 10+, for every player you bring in thats another player gone.

So if the reduced list sizes do eventuate, any player that is not core (ie. best 12 or someone with potential to be top 10 at the club) is probably cheaper than usual.

Of course there's the other issue that to fit these guys in ourselves that means we have to cut 10+ players ourselves, which seems ludicrously unfeasible considering we have had about 4 goes at delisting Roarke Smith and still haven't had the heart to follow through with it.

[bornadog]

This could be irrelevant.

I know nothing official has been said, and I have no idea what the actual plan is, but if the initial rumours of much smaller squad sizes happens (say 35 which means you cut 10+) then trade assets might not matter.

I can't see lists being cut by 10, maybe 5

[Axe Man]

I can't see lists being cut by 10, maybe 5

Yeah, the more recent talk has been about a small cut or perhaps not at all.

[EasternWest]

Until he nominates the Dogs as his destination, I won’t be getting excited. We have very few trade assets this year.

Johannisen.

[jeemak]

A cut of ten would be devastating to the standard of the game. You need as many players as you can afford in the elite environment as the difference between player 35 and 45 is marginal so the elite experience needs to be spread across as many in this bracket as possible.

[jeemak]

Johannisen.

Reckon he's a keeper. Just needs some solidarity around him.

[soupman]

Alright a cut of 10 is probably a bit much but even a cut of 10% is 4 players plus whatever you need to make room for draftees so you are looking at 7 minimum. I think the point stands that it could be a really easy year to get a club to give up a non core player, regardless of whats going back the other way.

[soupman]

Reckon he's a keeper. Just needs some solidarity around him.

It would be madness to willingly give up one of our few good pacy players unless we have a lot of them coming back the other way.

[EasternWest]

Reckon he's a keeper. Just needs some solidarity around him.

That's like, your opinion, man.

[FrediKanoute]

AS good as Hamling has proven to be; and as nice as it would be to welcome a Premiership hero back I can't get over the injury he has and how it has seriously impeded his ability to get on the track at Freo. Yes he would be an updrade on Gardiner, but if he ends up as a permanent sick note then its a waster. Pass for me.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Johannisen.

For all of JJ's faults, we sometimes overlook his skillsets.
I've been critical of his onfield mistakes, and I still think his protracted contract negotiation post premiership was ordinary.
However, his line breaking, metres gained, and the fact he is regularly targeted by opposition coaches speaks to his value to us.
He ain't going anywhere, and we just need to find other weaponry that enables us to maximise the strengths he does have to their full extent.
Which is why if we think, the GWS vs Bulldog rivalry doesn't preclude it, Zac Williams should be large on our radar.

[jeemak]

That's like, your opinion, man.

From its inception, and evermore, literally the best retort ever!

[GVGjr]

A cut of ten would be devastating to the standard of the game. You need as many players as you can afford in the elite environment as the difference between player 35 and 45 is marginal so the elite experience needs to be spread across as many in this bracket as possible.

The clubs have to get the wages down and the further you go it means the better players don't have to lose that much
I don't think cutting the numbers by 5 players will get the clubs there

I think it will be 8 players so that takes it down to 37 players on the list and then the clubs will have to lose another 4 players to allow them to draft 3 players and add one via a fee agency

That might mean we have to get down to 33 players either after the trade period but certainly before the draft

I agree it's a huge challenge, there won't be a lot of room to hold onto marginal or injury prone players
There will probably be another adjustment to the footy department as well

[jeemak]

It might be simplistic, but shouldn't it be a straight line of reduced numbers aligned with spend?

Why should player twenty six take a bigger pay cut than player number five or vice versa?

[GVGjr]

It might be simplistic, but shouldn't it be a straight line of reduced numbers aligned with spend?

Why should player twenty six take a bigger pay cut than player number five or vice versa?

It will probably be a percentage applied to the cut in salary.
There are some challenges for the clubs before they get into 2021 season

[jeemak]

It will probably be a percentage applied to the cut in salary.
There are some challenges for the clubs before they get into 2021 season

Yeah, I think we agree I just want to see it being applied in a linear way rather than weighted to the better players or against them.

[bornadog]

Alright a cut of 10 is probably a bit much but even a cut of 10% is 4 players plus whatever you need to make room for draftees so you are looking at 7 minimum. I think the point stands that it could be a really easy year to get a club to give up a non core player, regardless of whats going back the other way.

It could be goodbye rookie list plus 5 senior players?

[Topdog]

I haven't been watching him very closely, has he actually played well?

[kruder]

Just a reminder Hamling was basically traded for pick 35 as a premiership defender.

He is now injured and walked out on the club, he will be cheap as chips on a trade front if we are keen.

[1eyedog]

Cordy, Keath Hamling
Crozier, Daniel, Wood/Duryea

Works for me.

Slooooow

Need more run in that lineup. Where is Bailey Williams? JJ and how will Zac Willams fit in there? One of Cordy or Wood (or both) needs to come out of there order to fit Hamling. I feel like we're going backwards bringing him in and I'm not sure he's a big upgrade on Cordy, maybe I'm wrong.

[EasternWest]

Slooooow

Need more run in that lineup. Where is Bailey Williams? JJ and how will Zac Willams fit in there? One of Cordy or Wood (or both) needs to come out of there order to fit Hamling. I feel like we're going backwards bringing him in and I'm not sure he's a big upgrade on Cordy, maybe I'm wrong.

That's actually something I hadn't considered.

I'm not sure where the speed comes from. I have written Johannisen off.

Wood/Duryea out for Williams.

I am definitely viewing Hamling with rose coloured glasses. A wise man on WOOF once said objectivity is boring. I'm trying the philosophy on for size.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Hamlings manager Colin Young has always seemed to me like a specialist at getting his clients big money deals or big money deals for moves. Seems to recognise their peak value and negotiate aggressively then.

https://csports.com.au/talent/

He's done it twice for Brad Hill.

He does represents English and Naughton so we would want to have good relations with him