It's the year of the Dog, but 'Macca' should take a bow

[jeemak]

Here's an interesting take on McCartney's legacy.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/its-the-year-of-the-dog-but-macca-should-take-a-bow-20150821-gj4p8x.html


This is the thing that stood out most to me:


Whether the Bulldog powers-that-be like it or not, McCartney was the coach who took them through the "cats' heads" period. They were ready to bring joy and fun into their game – just as they have done. Perhaps Griffen and Cooney were two of the problems but information tells me McCartney never "lost" his players.

[chef]

Macca deserves a fair bit of credit for where we are now.

[bulldogtragic]

Disagree. Our improvement has come an engaging coach and creating a conducive environment to perform, a much more modern gameplan and a heap of players playing in positions that he refused to play them.

[jeemak]

Why is it so hard to acknowledge that the players Beveridge has at his disposal already knew the non-negotiables - which form a significant part of being competitive - before he walked through the door?

[chef]

Why is it so hard to acknowledge that the players Beveridge has at his disposal already knew the non-negotiables which form a significant part of being competitive before he walked through the door?

Yep, he's added another element to what Macca already had us doing.

Plus Macca had a huge say in the players playing this gameplan(and getting rid of the deadwood).

Credit where credits due IMO.

[jeemak]

Yep, he's added another element to what Macca already had us doing.

Plus Macca had a huge say in the players playing this gameplan(and getting rid of the deadwood).

Credit where credits due IMO.

There's set-up aspects, both defencive and offencive that Beveridge has added that have made a huge difference. And a few positional changes have taken us another step forward.

Of the good games we played under McCartney the helter skelter or manic forward movement and chaos brought about from an unpredictable and oddly sized forward line are prevalent under Beveridge. Beveridge's message for this to become the norm and for players to be more positive has clearly been communicated well to the playing group, which I think probably helps them buy into the "system" approach to the game.

The hard work and set-up at stoppages was something McCartney worked on, and the team wouldn't be where it is today without it.

We'll never know the impact of having Cooney, Jones, Higgins, Griffen and Minson together on the one playing list from a cultural perspective, though with Minson the only one left of those guys it's hard not to see it having an impact.

[strebla]

Love Bevo but must agree Macca has his stamp well and truly on this team.

[Ghost Dog]

Disagree. Our improvement has come an engaging coach and creating a conducive environment to perform, a much more modern gameplan and a heap of players playing in positions that he refused to play them.

Surely only the players can answer this. And even then you might get differing opinions.

Jarrad Grant, banished for four weeks to the gym. What does that tell us?

But then, on the other hand, a coach who stuck by Lukas Marcovic, who was clearly out of our depth and would not be getting a game with us now, were he fit ( love the guy and his effort, but just too slow ).

A mixed bag. He was able to do some things well as a coach, but as a play-maker, I used to really wonder about some of his decisions on the day.

[boydogs]

Macca seemed limited, we learnt contested ball to the point we were #1 in the league but we were still losing games, and by the end of his time we were losing players too

Good assistant coach is probably a fair description

[jeemak]

Surely only the players can answer this. And even then you might get differing opinions.

Jarrad Grant, banished for four weeks to the gym. What does that tell us?

But then, on the other hand, a coach who stuck by Lukas Marcovic, who was clearly out of our depth and would not be getting a game with us now, were he fit ( love the guy and his effort, but just too slow ).

A mixed bag. He was able to do some things well as a coach, but as a play-maker, I used to really wonder about some of his decisions on the day.

Markovic was delisted in 2013. McCartney coached 2014.

It's funny that in 2013 Grant averaged more marks, kicks, tackles and goals than he has this year. That banishment to the gym must have really done him a disservice.

[bulldogtragic]

Surely only the players can answer this. And even then you might get differing opinions.

Jarrad Grant, banished for four weeks to the gym. What does that tell us?

But then, on the other hand, a coach who stuck by Lukas Marcovic, who was clearly out of our depth and would not be getting a game with us now, were he fit ( love the guy and his effort, but just too slow ).

A mixed bag. He was able to do some things well as a coach, but as a play-maker, I used to really wonder about some of his decisions on the day.

The players have said time and time again this year. Banishing Jarrad to the gym to me shows he had NFI about him. As I've advocated for a long while, Jarrads strengthes are further up the ground and that Macca couldn't or wouldn't do what Bevo did in his first week with us shows he was a limited head coach.

Maccas match days was usually poor, his use of the sub was sometimes emabassing, his push to turn Higgins into a defender and Lake into a forward was limited thinking too, or poor thinking. He had us playing rolling rugby mauls to win only inside ball and despite us winning it we got flogged regularly because there was no gameplan beyond that. Not to mention that gameplan is 10 years old and antiquated. He managed to piss a lot of people off including the captain. He played Austin et al despite neither clearly being AFL standard. That Jake Stringer could have left us is enough on its own to question Maccas legacy. For his development credentials I didn't see enough to be won over.

Honestly, the similarities of wins, losses and player revolts are very closely matched to Peter Rhode yet there's a romance with one and the other being erased from out memories. I can't stand the Macca got us a VFL team and that's down to him, well I call bull shite. Every senior coach wants a VFL team. Gordo put up the cash out of his own pocket for his vision, not Maccas.

He was at the wheel when our club was driven over a cliff and I hold him responsible for that. He was an unmitigated disaster as a head coach and whilst he did a few good things I won't be attributing the amazing work by/with of Bobby, Bevo and the entire club this year. The club, coach and players this year deserve the credit and that's it for me.

[chef]

The players have said time and time again this year. Banishing Jarrad to the gym to me shows he had NFI about him. As I've advocated for a long while, Jarrads strengthes are further up the ground and that Macca couldn't or wouldn't do what Bevo did in his first week with us shows he was a limited head coach. Maccas match days was usually poor, his use of the sub was sometimes emabassing, his push to turn Higgins into a defender and Lake into a forward was limited thinking too, or poor thinking. He had us playing rolling rugby mauls to win only inside ball and despite us winning it we got flogged regularly because there was no gameplan beyond that. Not to mention that gameplan is 10 years old and antiquated. He managed to piss a lot of people off including the captain. He played Austin et al despite neither clearly being AFL standard. That Jake Stringer could have left us is enough on its own to question Maccas legacy. For his development credentials I didn't see enough to be won over. Honestly, the similarities of wins, losses and player revolts are very closely matched to Peter Rhode yet there's a romance with one and the other being erased from out memories. I can't stand the Macca got us a VFL team and that's down to him, well I call bull shite. Every senior coach wants a VFL team. Gordo put up the cash out of his own pocket for his vision, not Maccas. He was at the wheel when our club was driven over a cliff and I hold him responsible for that. He was an unmitigated disaster as a head coach and whilst he did a few good things I won't be attributing the amazing work by/with of Bobby, Bevo and the entire club this year. The club, coach and players this year deserve the credit and that's it for me.

Thats near impossible to read;)

[bulldogtragic]

Macca had the option to play Boyd as a HB. He had the option to not play Wood as a third tall defender. He had the option of Picken to play as a mid. He had the the option not to play Wally as a tagged. He had the option to play Bob as a rebounding defender. He had the option to play Grant off the wing. He had the option to play Roughy as a ruckman. He had the option to give Dahl more time up the ground.

He made the choices not to do any of this. None. Bevo did this upon walking into the club and the results speak for themselves. Bevo understood the list from Hawthorns assisting coaching ranks. That's an indictment that an opposition assistant coaches knows more about the list than the head coach.

He is a divisive figure and I don't think we are all going to agree. But thank god he is long gone because this beautiful season wouldn't have happened at him coaching us. Here's looking the finals!!

[The Doctor]

the article was written by Gareth Andrews, who was a highly influential off field figure (vice president) at Geelong when Macartney was there, so it will have a biased opinion in my view. All the Geelong people love macartney and fair enough.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Surely only the players can answer this. And even then you might get differing opinions.

Jarrad Grant, banished for four weeks to the gym. What does that tell us?

But then, on the other hand, a coach who stuck by Lukas Marcovic, who was clearly out of our depth and would not be getting a game with us now, were he fit ( love the guy and his effort, but just too slow ).

A mixed bag. He was able to do some things well as a coach, but as a play-maker, I used to really wonder about some of his decisions on the day.
I think a big part of the problem with Macca's era was timing. He came in at the height of the draft concessions to the new teams that severely limited our ability to transition the team. As a result guys like Markovic and Austin were given extended opportunities that otherwise would not have occurred. I'm sure Macca was aware of their shortcomings but there were not a great deal of other options.
As for trying to reinvent guys like Boyd and Picken as Bevo has been able to do, he's had the luxury of a clean slate to operate in. No Cooney, Griffen, Higgins or Libba to fit in has provided him with the necessary environment to experiment. I recall many here, including myself who had great skepticism in Beveridge's moving of Boyd to the half back line. It looks a genius move now, but i can only imagine the howls if Macca had flagged that move at the beginning of last year.

As much as the decision to part with Macca has worked out well and Beveridge is looking like a great replacement, I equally think that Macca's legacy is strong and that if he had've had his opportunity to coach at a time other than when he got the job his coaching journey would've been more successful.

I don't think there have been too many coaches who got their jobs in the era of expansion teams and the ensuing draft and player concessions made it through with their careers in tact. Waters, Neeld, Macca, all took on teams either bottoming out or already bottomed out and were all unable to build a squad capable of quick success -which is what poorly performed teams need to do in order to keep the pressure index on the coach from blowing out. Yet all 3 did play a part in providing their successor with a platform to build upon once the impact of the expansion team player drain eased. This has allowed those teams to now bring in better quality players, instead of having to settle for guys like Markovic & Austin.

[chef]

Thanks BT.

I am very blad Bevo's our coach now, just think Macca deserve's a little credit.

[jeemak]

Macca seemed limited, we learnt contested ball to the point we were #1 in the league but we were still losing games, and by the end of his time we were losing players too

Good assistant coach is probably a fair description

This is probably fair enough in hindsight. The comments from previous Geelong players who spent time at the Dogs during his tenure was that he's softened up a lot, compared to how he was at Geelong.

It tells me he was a pretty good "head kicker" or "bad cop" at Geelong, which would have left Thomspon to present a more positive message.

[LostDoggy]

The way I see it, Macca was an outstanding and proven development coach but, ultimately, a limited head coach.

Worked out perfect really, he put a couple of great early years into the Stringers, Wallis', Dahls, McRaes, Bonts, etc, laid a really solid contested base and then moved on for a younger head coach with a sharper game plan and a more compatible man management style.

I reckon Macca did a lot of good for our club, and does deserve a part of the credit for our current success, but his limitations were such that it was right for him to leave when he did. Thankfully we were able to find a perfect replacement to build on his solid foundations.

[jeemak]

I think a big part of the problem with Macca's era was timing. He came in at the height of the draft concessions to the new teams that severely limited our ability to transition the team. As a result guys like Markovic and Austin were given extended opportunities that otherwise would not have occurred. I'm sure Macca was aware of their shortcomings but there were not a great deal of other options.
As for trying to reinvent guys like Boyd and Picken as Bevo has been able to do, he's had the luxury of a clean slate to operate in. No Cooney, Griffen, Higgins or Libba to fit in has provided him with the necessary environment to experiment. I recall many here, including myself who had great skepticism in Beveridge's moving of Boyd to the half back line. It looks a genius move now, but i can only imagine the howls if Macca had flagged that move at the beginning of last year.

As much as the decision to part with Macca has worked out well and Beveridge is looking like a great replacement, I equally think that Macca's legacy is strong and that if he had've had his opportunity to coach at a time other than when he got the job his coaching journey would've been more successful.

I don't think there have been too many coaches who got their jobs in the era of expansion teams and the ensuing draft and player concessions made it through with their careers in tact. Waters, Neeld, Macca, all took on teams either bottoming out or already bottomed out and were all unable to build a squad capable of quick success -which is what poorly performed teams need to do in order to keep the pressure index on the coach from blowing out. Yet all 3 did play a part in providing their successor with a platform to build upon once the impact of the expansion team player drain eased. This has allowed those teams to now bring in better quality players, instead of having to settle for guys like Markovic & Austin.

Excellent post.

[GVGjr]

There's set-up aspects, both defencive and offencive that Beveridge has added that have made a huge difference. And a few positional changes have taken us another step forward.

Of the good games we played under McCartney the helter skelter or manic forward movement and chaos brought about from an unpredictable and oddly sized forward line are prevalent under Beveridge. Beveridge's message for this to become the norm and for players to be more positive has clearly been communicated well to the playing group, which I think probably helps them buy into the "system" approach to the game.

The hard work and set-up at stoppages was something McCartney worked on, and the team wouldn't be where it is today without it.

We'll never know the impact of having Cooney, Jones, Higgins, Griffen and Minson together on the one playing list from a cultural perspective, though with Minson the only one left of those guys it's hard not to see it having an impact.

I think Bevo would acknowledge that he inherited a team that was close to elite with the defensive efforts, stoppages and set-up and while he may not be fully aware but losing Griffen, Cooney and to a lesser extent Higgins helped him bring players into the midfield that would run hard both ways which is what McCartney could not achieve.

Having said that, Beveridge has taken things a lot further than McCartney could have achieved and he shouldn't live in the shadow of McCartney past this season. This is no doubt Bevo's team now and in the future.

[Go_Dogs]

It's an interesting one. Everyone has rightly got behind Bevo, it's hard not too. He's an engaging speaker, he's likeable and on top of that, he has (to date) exceeded our on-field expectations. Macca polarised a lot of the supporters, so I think it's difficult for there to be objective discussion around what influence he may or may not have had.

The majority of young footballers who come into the AFL system take some time to develop the contested and defensive skills required in the modern game. I feel that Macca really wanted to ensure that all of our kids had those cornerstones covered - and yes, that meant some players got dropped at times (think Macrae, who Bevo also dropped for a few weeks this year for similar reasons) and some played in different positions (think Stringer down back). I think players like Roberts benefited from not being gifted senior games and earning their stripes in the VFL.

Some of our biggest improvers have taken giant strides this year, but how much of that is simply part of their natural footballing progression? Mitch Wallis wasn't as good a midfielder 2 years ago as he is now - he's developed into a very good one. A number of posters on WOOF thought he was never going to make it, but through hard work and opportunity over a period of time he's now a well rounded player at senior level. JJ had a good 2013, but then after his shoulder injury he struggled the following year - he's now really found his feet as a footballer. Easton Wood has finally got some continuity with his football which is no doubt a reason he's had a great season. This is of course not to downplay the work the coaches have done with all of these blokes over the past 10 months - they have done a brilliant job - but history suggests players develop at different rates and become more consistent once they've played a bit of senior footy and have confidence in their bodies.

We will never know whether having a different coach for 2012-2014 would have meant a different outcome for the side, whether it would have meant we'd be where we are now - whether we would have progressed more quickly. At the end of the day, we have transitioned our list well throughout the Macca era, we now have a very young core of players who are going to continue to improve as they develop, get more senior experience and mature as people and footballers.

We've 123.20% made the right decision bringing Bevo in, however I'm reluctant to say our players, and Club, received nothing of benefit during the Macca era.

[Maddog37]

I hated watching our team play when Macca coached. He sucked all the joy out of footy and I feel the players felt the same.

He got us a VFL team, he oversaw a more rigid recruiting model and helped clean out a lot of dead wood so he was important for the club moving forward but his match day work was deplorable IMHO.

[Go_Dogs]

Having said that, Beveridge has taken things a lot further than McCartney could have achieved and he shouldn't live in the shadow of McCartney past this season. This is no doubt Bevo's team now and in the future.

Well said, as always, GVGjr.

[Ghost Dog]

I think Bevo would acknowledge that he inherited a team that was close to elite with the defensive efforts, stoppages and set-up and while he may not be fully aware but losing Griffen, Cooney and to a lesser extent Higgins helped him bring players into the midfield that would run hard both ways which is what McCartney could not achieve.

Having said that, Beveridge has taken things a lot further than McCartney could have achieved and he shouldn't live in the shadow of McCartney past this season. This is no doubt Bevo's team now and in the future.

It's sort of ironic that Griff fell out with Macca, because he became a much better player under him.

[bulldogtragic]

He got Crameri, Dickson and Campbell from Essendon links. That's very impressive, but that's about it. Let's look forward, there a lot to look forward to.

[Ghost Dog]

I hated watching our team play when Macca coached. He sucked all the joy out of footy and I feel the players felt the same.

He got us a VFL team, he oversaw a more rigid recruiting model and helped clean out a lot of dead wood so he was important for the club moving forward but his match day work was deplorable IMHO.

Yea, as I think I have mentioned before, I took a heap of international students to a game thanks to the Dogs community program, and they all wanted to leave at half time. It was just all bums in the air.

But maybe we had to go through that to get where we are.

[Twodogs]

Macca gets an invite to the premiership celebration. Gold embossed.

[HOSE B ROMERO]

Haven't read all the posts but in my opinion it's not a great leap to suggest that Macca set the foundations and Bevo is building on that with his skills. Timing is everything when you come into a club as coach whether you're Rocket, Plough, Rhode etc.

[AndrewP6]

The gulf between the Dogs of 2015 and the Dogs of 2012-4 couldn't be greater, IMO. Likewise the gulf between what McCartney gave the team and what Bevo has bought. For the bulk of three years, football became a chore to watch, and in this short time, Bevo has shown that it doesn't have to be that way, and you can still win. McCartney didn't have what it takes to be a senior coach, Bevo most certainly does. Credit to McCartney for bringing the hard-nosed contest, but that's all he brought, IMO. It was an absolute howler to extend his contract, and absolutely the right move to show him the door. May Bevo be the one to bring us the ultimate.

[Bulldog4life]

the article was written by Gareth Andrews, who was a highly influential off field figure (vice president) at Geelong when Macartney was there, so it will have a biased opinion in my view. All the Geelong people love macartney and fair enough.

Like a lot of our posters:)

[jeemak]

The gulf between the Dogs of 2015 and the Dogs of 2012-4 couldn't be greater, IMO. Likewise the gulf between what McCartney gave the team and what Bevo has bought. For the bulk of three years, football became a chore to watch, and in this short time, Bevo has shown that it doesn't have to be that way, and you can still win. McCartney didn't have what it takes to be a senior coach, Bevo most certainly does. Credit to McCartney for bringing the hard-nosed contest, but that's all he brought, IMO. It was an absolute howler to extend his contract, and absolutely the right move to show him the door. May Bevo be the one to bring us the ultimate.

So, how much value do we place on the "hard nosed contest" aspect of our current play? We are just as ruthless in the contest as we are creative.

[KT31]

I'll give Macca credit for today and Bevo weeks prior.:)

[AndrewP6]

So, how much value do we place on the "hard nosed contest" aspect of our current play? We are just as ruthless in the contest as we are creative.

Apart from today :p Sure, the ruthlessness is there, but that alone doesn't kick goals. And that alone is what McCartney brought to the table.

[The Doctor]

If Macca was still in charge we would have half the wins we have now and zero hope for the future. We did the right thing and the results are plain for all to see.

Anyway I don't know why this is being debated. Gareth Andrews who wrote the article is pro Geelong therefore pro Macca and in some way trying to credit his club for our rise whilst they are in demise.

[jeemak]

If Macca was still in charge we would have half the wins we have now and zero hope for the future. We did the right thing and the results are plain for all to see.

Anyway I don't know why this is being debated. Gareth Andrews who wrote the article is pro Geelong therefore pro Macca and in some way trying to credit his club for our rise whilst they are in demise.

That's a bit of a stretch.

Nobody's trying to say that if McCartney was still in charge we'd be better, worse or even. Some of us are trying to point out that his influence on our current output is prevalent. Nothing more, and nothing less.

[The Doctor]

That's a bit of a stretch.

Nobody's trying to say that if McCartney was still in charge we'd be better, worse or even. Some of us are trying to point out that his influence on our current output is prevalent. Nothing more, and nothing less.

and some of us are disagreeing

[jeemak]

and some of us are disagreeing

I reckon that's my biggest problem! I need to get over the fact that not everyone's into the same shit I am. :)

[Remi Moses]

No doubt the McCartney blueprint of hunting the player and football is all over this team .
His coaching savyness was sadly lacking however, and to be honest we were extremely fortunate to avoid some recruiting disasters .
Beveridge has added parts to the group that were vital, plus the group has " buy in" to Beveridge, where under McCartney the place was broken beyond repair . It's sad for him because I think he's a genuine nice guy, but you have to tick all the boxes,and McCartney didn't tick many .

[1eyedog]

I reckon that's my biggest problem! I need to get over the fact that not everyone's into the same shit I am. :)

Wow sounds like you have a lot to get over! :D

[Sedat]

I think Bevo would acknowledge that he inherited a team that was close to elite with the defensive efforts, stoppages and set-up.
Purely talking from a coaching and tactical perspective, I would very much question this line of thinking. The 'cracking in' mantra did not mean we were a strong team defensively at all. In fact we were laughably easy to play against with our set-ups and structure - have half a dozen mids all fight for the contested ball, one of them scrubs it out straight to a wall of opposition players strategically set-up for this, watch the ball sail over our heads, rinse and repeat. Our game style required us to have to win contested possessions and clearances by astronomical numbers just to have a sniff of being competitive.

I hated the way we played, and it cannot be solely down to the level of talent on our list because we had far more talent than the previous coach was prepared to acknowledge. And that is the biggest problem I had with the BMac years - he placed a very low ceiling on the players, both individually and as a collective group. Beveridge would kill to have the elite talent of Liberatore and Griffen at his disposal right now to compliment the burgeoning talent of our youth, and BMac had both of these players at the top of their game and without injury for much of his 3 years in charge. There was also a cookie-cutter element to how he perceived how the entire group should be taught to play, hence why a jet like Bob was turned into a dirty back pocket plumber for much of season 2012. Also for a supposedly great development coach and teacher, precious few of the players under him showed much improvement at all. Who actually raised their game to new heights that were already well entrenched in the team during the Rocket ear? I can barely think of one - possibly Roughead and his work as a key defender (and I'm being generous).

I agree with Bulldogtragic - the BMac years are akin to the Rohde years. In both cases there was a core group of talented players (young and old) not performing for a number of factors, and the new coach immediately got major improvement out of these players.

Is there a never-ending line of Geelong lackeys in the media that will do everything possible to talk up one of their 'own'? Can't they just acknowledge the bleeding obvious, that BMac was laughably out of his depth as a senior coach?

[Greystache]

This is probably fair enough in hindsight. The comments from previous Geelong players who spent time at the Dogs during his tenure was that he's softened up a lot, compared to how he was at Geelong.

It tells me he was a pretty good "head kicker" or "bad cop" at Geelong, which would have left Thomspon to present a more positive message.

If that's the case wouldn't it then be unlikely he'd be a much loved figure amongst the playing group? All the player's coming from Geelong seem to speak of him in glowing terms, so he couldn't have purely been the bad cop so to speak.

[Greystache]

It seems very few of our supporters fall into the middle ground of he did some good and some not so good.

He taught a young team to be competitive and be hard at the contest, and that soft outsiders weren't a key part of successful teams. He also added far more structure and strategy to our recruiting model, and developed an elite stoppage team. These things he didn't very very well, the problem was in other areas such as ball movement, team defence, and forward structure he was incompetent.

So we had a team and club that were excellent in a couple of areas and inept in some others. Beveridge has come in a rounded out our play and released some players to play a more creative game. I don't understand why many people refuse to accept BMac achieved anything when Beveridge himself has acknowledged how surprised he was at how advanced our stoppage work was, and that it made it much easier for him to advance his plans immediately.

Could BMac have taken us forward to ultimate success? No chance. Did we benefit from his time at the club? Certainly.

[Remi Moses]

I think it's a stretch to compare the talent pool Rohde had as similar to what McCartney had.
Well to begin with we lost our future captain before McCartney came in, and added to the fact the goldmine the franchise clubs were allowed .Rohde had a more mature side ready to peek, whereas McCartney had an ageing side on the wane.
The difference was the players actually had a dip until the last half of last year, whereas under Rohde they barely tried .
I think McCartney was/is a development teacher type, whereas Rohde was suited to the footy management side of things .
I think we'll all admit that coaching an AFL club is one mighty difficult job

[GVGjr]

Purely talking from a coaching and tactical perspective, I would very much question this line of thinking. The 'cracking in' mantra did not mean we were a strong team defensively at all. In fact we were laughably easy to play against with our set-ups and structure - have half a dozen mids all fight for the contested ball, one of them scrubs it out straight to a wall of opposition players strategically set-up for this, watch the ball sail over our heads, rinse and repeat. Our game style required us to have to win contested possessions and clearances by astronomical numbers just to have a sniff of being competitive.



Heard it mentioned by a member of the inner sanctum. Bevo didn't need to make a lot of adjustments on the defensive side of things.
Players like Wood had been dropped the previous season because he had become too defensive minded and wasn't advancing the ball quickly enough.

[bornadog]

Purely talking from a coaching and tactical perspective, I would very much question this line of thinking. The 'cracking in' mantra did not mean we were a strong team defensively at all. In fact we were laughably easy to play against with our set-ups and structure - have half a dozen mids all fight for the contested ball, one of them scrubs it out straight to a wall of opposition players strategically set-up for this, watch the ball sail over our heads, rinse and repeat. Our game style required us to have to win contested possessions and clearances by astronomical numbers just to have a sniff of being competitive.

I hated the way we played, and it cannot be solely down to the level of talent on our list because we had far more talent than the previous coach was prepared to acknowledge. And that is the biggest problem I had with the BMac years - he placed a very low ceiling on the players, both individually and as a collective group. Beveridge would kill to have the elite talent of Liberatore and Griffen at his disposal right now to compliment the burgeoning talent of our youth, and BMac had both of these players at the top of their game and without injury for much of his 3 years in charge. There was also a cookie-cutter element to how he perceived how the entire group should be taught to play, hence why a jet like Bob was turned into a dirty back pocket plumber for much of season 2012. Also for a supposedly great development coach and teacher, precious few of the players under him showed much improvement at all. Who actually raised their game to new heights that were already well entrenched in the team during the Rocket ear? I can barely think of one - possibly Roughead and his work as a key defender (and I'm being generous).

I agree with Bulldogtragic - the BMac years are akin to the Rohde years. In both cases there was a core group of talented players (young and old) not performing for a number of factors, and the new coach immediately got major improvement out of these players.

Is there a never-ending line of Geelong lackeys in the media that will do everything possible to talk up one of their 'own'? Can't they just acknowledge the bleeding obvious, that BMac was laughably out of his depth as a senior coach?

Post of the year.

[bulldogtragic]

Post of the year.

Because he references me? :D

[bornadog]

Because he references me? :D

Of course:D

[ratsmac]

So Beveridge is chopped liver then!

Pfft. Of course there is some carry over attributes from Macca but what Beveridge has done in 9 months Macca didn't do in his whole time here.

[jeemak]

If that's the case wouldn't it then be unlikely he'd be a much loved figure amongst the playing group? All the player's coming from Geelong seem to speak of him in glowing terms, so he couldn't have purely been the bad cop so to speak.

I don't disagree. Though, he may have had some issues in changing from the bad cop at Geelong and delivering a more consistently positive message with his time with us.

When the world's on your shoulder it becomes a lot tougher to be the man/woman you used to be.

[jeemak]

Heard it mentioned by a member of the inner sanctum. Bevo didn't need to make a lot of adjustments on the defensive side of things.
Players like Wood had been dropped the previous season because he had become too defensive minded and wasn't advancing the ball quickly enough.

I've always said it is completely self indulgent to suggest we see things the coaching staff of AFL teams can't in this day and age.

To think that McCartney's coaching strategy was just about crowding the ball, not having numbers ready to defend the counter attack and having no coherent spread instruction to the players is laughable.

[Maddog37]

I've always said it is completely self indulgent to suggest we see things the coaching staff of AFL teams can't in this day and age.

To think that McCartney's coaching strategy was just about crowding the ball, not having numbers ready to defend the counter attack and having no coherent spread instruction to the players is laughable.


If it looks like a turd, smells like a turd, then it's more than likely a turd.

[jeemak]

If it looks like a turd, smells like a turd, then it's more than likely a turd.

Hahaha, that's a reasonable point!

[Ghost Dog]

Is there a never-ending line of Geelong lackeys in the media that will do everything possible to talk up one of their 'own'? Can't they just acknowledge the bleeding obvious, that BMac was laughably out of his depth as a senior coach?

Ryan Griffon. His game improved under BMac. Gia became a fantastic sub. Grant was just a new player under Eade but he improved a lot under Brendan. Higgins became a bit harder. I can't agree. Players tried hard for their new coach, who said all the right things. Once they sensed what I think would have been the noticeable lack of game day tactical nous, things fell apart - guessing.

It was hard being a dogs supporter during the McCartney era, especially when you went to games, and the style we had. The backline is the biggest differential for me between the two coaches. Easton Wood is in AA form and personally, I doubted he would go from athlete to footballer. Think I'm not the only person in that boat? There seemed to be only a few good games for him under Brendan.

[bornadog]

Searching something else in old threads I came across this: http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?11847-One-win-in-19-games-and-nightmare-stats-have-made-these-Western-Bulldogs-yelpless&highlight=mcg+games


One win in 19 games and nightmare stats have made these Western Bulldogs yelpless

WESTERN Bulldogs have been exposed as all power and no polish, with rivals feasting on their chronic lack of ball movement.

As former star forward Barry Hall laments "you don't know what side is going to show up" each week, exclusive Champion Data figures reveal serious problems at Whitten Oval.

Under coach Brendan McCartney, the Dogs average more clearance and contested possessions than the opposition each week, but struggle badly to move the ball with any fluency.

From their defensive 50m, the Dogs are the worst side in the competition at advancing the ball inside their forward 50 with an unbroken chain of possession.

Bulldogs hit the paws button

They score only 18.5 per cent of the time from a clearance - again ranked 18th.

Remarkably, they are the worst kicking team in the AFL at a paltry 60.6 per cent efficiency.

This article sums up what we had to endure under Macca. What a difference Bevo has made and now he has taken us into the finals.

[bulldogtragic]

Paul Roos coaches on a dour contested gameplay and sought out Macca to help him with it, seeing that Macca was implementing the same gameplay. They are an apparent perfect marriage of footy/coaching philosophy so they say. They are dinosaurs pushing a gameplay that is about 7 years past its use by date. Melbourne despite loading up on more and more talent are not getting ahead with this style of play and being coached in the philosophy. Al Clarkson has revamped his gameplan 10 times since these guys decided to live in the past. To highlight this, the Roos/Macca game style is the lowest scoring team this year, the very worst scoring team, and they have Hogan, Dawes, Watts and other talented kids being fed by Jones, Vince, Brayshaw etc. They're killing their talent with their bygone game plan. If Roos and Macca got sacked by Melbourne and next year a new coach catapaulted them up the ladder would there be this conga line of Melbourne people offering praise for their new found success??

Last year our club was at the lowest point I have ever known in my entire lifetime. Without a shadow of doubt the gitwrenchingly lowest ebb and on its knees. Macca was in charge when this happened and his poor leadership was cited by the captain in leaving and by Jake Stringer with PG. His competence is best summarised by the plethora of players now playing to a very high level in appropriate positions. We are now playing finals and 100% credit in my books goes to the club, the coach, the captain and the players. Bring on finals!!

[Ghost Dog]

What's PG?

[bornadog]

What's PG?

Peter Gordon

[Topdog]

Heard it mentioned by a member of the inner sanctum. Bevo didn't need to make a lot of adjustments on the defensive side of things.
Players like Wood had been dropped the previous season because he had become too defensive minded and wasn't advancing the ball quickly enough.

Perhaps they are just being kind??? The difference between our defence from last year to this year is absolutely staggering

[Topdog]

Last year our club was at the lowest point I have ever known in my entire lifetime. Without a shadow of doubt the gitwrenchingly lowest ebb and on its knees. Macca was in charge when this happened and his poor leadership was cited by the captain in leaving and by Jake Stringer with PG. His competence is best summarised by the plethora of players now playing to a very high level in appropriate positions. We are now playing finals and 100% credit in my books goes to the club, the coach, the captain and the players. Bring on finals!!

Yep he was in charge and ultimately responsible for that mess.

To claim Gia being a good sub is down to Macca is laughable. A model professional and club man getting on with the job isn't a stroke of genius.

[GVGjr]

Perhaps they are just being kind??? The difference between our defence from last year to this year is absolutely staggering

Not at all, the training was already in place. Wood was dropped last year because he didn't take the game on and on his return to Footscray Maple talked on what they were insisting Wood needed to do. He did exactly what was expected of him and was back in the seniors the following week. We weren't far off the mark defensively.

[jeemak]

Searching something else in old threads I came across this: [url]http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?11847-One-win-in-19-games-and-nightmare-stats-have-made-these-Western-Bulldogs-yelpless&highlight=mcg+games[/


This article sums up what we had to endure under Macca. What a difference Bevo has made and now he has taken us into the finals.

To balance things out I hope you post one of the articles that enthusiastically talks up our return of 7 & 7 for the remainder of that season.

[GVGjr]

To balance things out I hope you post one of the articles that enthusiastically talks up our return of 7 & 7 for the remainder of that season.

Don't think that will happen ;)

[bulldogtragic]

Why is there a near pathological need to attribute any aspect of current success to a failed former coach? I like divergence of opinion and respect everyone's right to have their say, but I honestly dont get why this is a topic. I don't remember these types of conversations after Joyce was sacked or Rhode was sacked and success came soon after. As I say, he is now at Melbourne seeing he and Roos coaching/game style through and despite so much talent they are ranked 18th (or last) for scoring and the natural talent is being killed. Surely talented players playing to their potential and more wins than losses counts for a lot more than a handful of very good public speeches. We are playing finals. We are playing finals. We are playing finals. We are playing finals. :)

[jeemak]

Why is there a near pathological need to attribute any aspect of current success to a failed former coach? I like divergence of opinion and respect everyone's right to have their say, but I honestly dont get why this is a topic. I don't remember these types of conversations after Joyce was sacked or Rhode was sacked and success came soon after. As I say, he is now at Melbourne seeing he and Roos coaching/game style through and despite so much talent they are ranked 18th (or last) for scoring and the natural talent is being killed. Surely talented players playing to their potential and more wins than losses counts for a lot more than a handful of very good public speeches. We are playing finals. We are playing finals. We are playing finals. We are playing finals. :)

Is that a serious post BT?

Just asking for some balance and perspective about a previous coach is causing some debate on the forum. Some go harder at it than others, and mostly it's pretty reasonable.

[bornadog]

To balance things out I hope you post one of the articles that enthusiastically talks up our return of 7 & 7 for the remainder of that season.

Ok, I will acknowledge that under Macca we won 29.5% of our games. :D

[GVGjr]

Why is there a near pathological need to attribute any aspect of current success to a failed former coach? I like divergence of opinion and respect everyone's right to have their say, but I honestly dont get why this is a topic. I don't remember these types of conversations after Joyce was sacked or Rhode was sacked and success came soon after. As I say, he is now at Melbourne seeing he and Roos coaching/game style through and despite so much talent they are ranked 18th (or last) for scoring and the natural talent is being killed. Surely talented players playing to their potential and more wins than losses counts for a lot more than a handful of very good public speeches. We are playing finals. We are playing finals. We are playing finals. We are playing finals. :)

BT, last season you kept bumping a thread after every loss that questioned Macca's value yet when asked if you wanted him sacked for some reason you couldn't bring yourself to say yes. Now that he is gone from the club you seem intent to discredit anything he might have achieved. I get the excitement and buzz around the club now but I don't think it happened purely because there was a change of a coach.

While I'm incredibly happy with the Beveridge appointment and more than pleasantly surprised with the results that have been achieved (I certainly don't believe Macca could have gotten us to this level this year) I still believe Beveridge inherited a vastly better team in a number of aspects than Macca did. Based on that I don't have a problem Macca getting a little credit. I said it before, it's certainly Bevo's team now and in the future but there was a lot of work (and pain) particularly in the last 2 seasons that have helped put us in this position.

[jeemak]

Ok, I will acknowledge that under Macca we won 29.5% of our games. :D

Interesting point, each time his legacy is brought forward it's compared to Rhode, who won 20% of his, with arguably better cattle.

[bulldogtragic]

Is that a serious post BT?

Just asking for some balance and perspective about a previous coach is causing some debate on the forum. Some go harder at it than others, and mostly it's pretty reasonable.

Nothing personal J man, I just don't see many redeeming things. My perspective I've stated and the notion of balance is flawed with respect. Like an old set of scales with weights on each side, when one puts more weight on one side of the scales, the scales move and can tip over. Macca tipped over (sacked with a contract in place) and it's physically impossible to suggest that there is 'balance' when the scales show more on one side (bad).

I compare it to something Jon Oliver did on climate change highlighting the Fox News and similar networks about having 'scientists' denying CC be on their programs to 'balance' the debate. Fox had usually the same guy on every program as a 'balance' to deny CC to the scientists stating its real. The only thing as Jon points out, is that 95% of the American Scientist Community believe CC is real. So it's not real 'balance' having one thing to oppose the notion of another thing. He makes a very funny and valid point by having 95 to 5 scientists in his studio to show the real 'balance'.

The guy had a contract. The guy oversaw the worst period in our history. The guy was sacked after kids including Stringer told Peter Gordon the truth as they saw it. We had a winning rate under 30%. He pissed our captain and many others off so much they left. We couldn't score, we couldn't defend. His percentage was 80% last year with the same cattle now doing 120%. In one year with less senior talented players!! His gameplan would not and will not win a premiership now days. He didn't sell the club all that well and this year is showing he didn't understand many players and where to play them. If we were shithouse again this year would the newspapers be running articles from Geelong chronies about how our average form was due to Macca the year before? Probably not.

I get you like him and I like that you stick up for who you believe in, I do really honestly. But for many people who think like me, there's no real balance to things outside of Crameri, Campbell and Dickson. This years bright shining success highlights just how dark that oblivion was. I get you need night to have day, but I won't get up tomorrow morning and thank the suns light and warmth on tonight's dark cold sky. I will just enjoy the sun for as long as it stays out.

[jeemak]

I appreciate you going to the effort BT. But you couldn't have pitched further from the mark with your depiction of how I view this particular matter.

[bulldogtragic]

BT, last season you kept bumping a thread after every loss that questioned Macca's value yet when asked if you wanted him sacked for some reason you couldn't bring yourself to say yes. Now that he is gone from the club you seem intent to discredit anything he might have achieved. I get the excitement and buzz around the club now but I don't think it happened purely because there was a change of a coach.

While I'm incredibly happy with the Beveridge appointment and more than pleasantly surprised with the results that have been achieved (I certainly don't believe Macca could have gotten us to this level this year) I still believe Beveridge inherited a vastly better team in a number of aspects than Macca did. Based on that I don't have a problem Macca getting a little credit. I said it before, it's certainly Bevo's team now and in the future but there was a lot of work (and pain) particularly in the last 2 seasons that have helped put us in this position.


Yes, I bumped it. And as I said it was weird that the pendulum of support or criticism swayed so vastly. Vastly. Comments here or there in different threads wasn't really giving me a clear idea of where people were at and that thread to me was really interesting to see the views and thoughts of members/supporters. I found it interesting in trying to get a read on things more generally, and I've never said anything other than that. I copped unnecessary BS over it, but that comes with strangers questioning your intentions who don't know why I do things or what motivates me. Some people are suspicious and some people were wrong in accusations. I didn't start the thread, denounced the starter and always explained my actions. I don't really care about wrong perceptions of my thinking or motives, but they are wrong.

As for my views, there was something not right late last year. The members/supporters were in actuality representing something similar to the players about frustrations and Macca. He had a contract and I didn't know the extent that blokes like Stringer could leave if Macca stayed. If I knew that, like 99.9% of people I would have said sack him. It's like saying with hindsight that I am saying he was worse than I thought. Yes, with hindsight he was worse than I thought. :)

He took an average list, to an under performing on field team. He brought in some good players and that was huge. Our defence and attack looks nothing like last year. Our players look nothing like last year. There is way more bad than good, but it's everyone's right on this forum to say what they like and I like people still believe in him and are prepared to defend their position. I'm not one of them and as I say, there's finals on the horizon and I don't understand why we are talking him up when if we were poor again he wouldn't be mentioned.

Getting circular now.one of those agree to disagree things.

[bulldogtragic]

I appreciate you going to the effort BT. But you couldn't have pitched further from the mark with your depiction of how I view this particular matter.

Maybe that's why we are not agreeing. :D

But it's ok not to agree, in fact I quite like it when it's civil and reasoned. Even though not agreeing. Unlike cheap pot shots last year from ad-hoc users who only post insults who infer suspicion and assertion onto someone they don't know. Have I mentioned finals?

[jeemak]

What did Jake say at that meeting with PG? I've been meaning to ask as it seems I'm well out of the loop!

[bulldogtragic]

Was in some media reports. The reported story was that Peter Gordon was in the middle of the shite storm after Griffen requested the trade but before Macca was actually sacked. Apparently he was told that also many of young kids were very, very unhappy with Macca. Peter and Jake sat down and had a very honest chat about Macca, Jake, other pups and the future. Macca got sacked after the meeting.

[jeemak]

That's one version of it, that I've heard too.

I've also heard it's bullshit of the highest order and probably not worth repeating.

Like anything it's probably in the middle, one way or the other.

[bulldogtragic]

That's one version of it, that I've heard too.

I've also heard it's bullshit of the highest order and probably not worth repeating.

No one will ever know the truth of Shocktober. There's so many versions of the 'truth' on the record. All we know is a bloke with a contract got sacked by a club with not much money. Says we were motivated to me beyond simply Griff wanting out. Would've been a great off season to do a follow up doco with the players to Year of The Dogs.

[Topdog]

Not at all, the training was already in place. Wood was dropped last year because he didn't take the game on and on his return to Footscray Maple talked on what they were insisting Wood needed to do. He did exactly what was expected of him and was back in the seniors the following week. We weren't far off the mark defensively.

In theory? In practice? Cos in reality we were a long way away.

We are on track to concede 300+ less this season. Look he laid some foundation in terms of contested footy but should he take a bow? Well no, he got sacked for a reason - 29% win percentage and falling out with a massive group of players.

Does he really deserve credit for possibly doing one aspect of his job well despite failing in many many others?

And crediting him with the VFL team (not you G just a general comment) is ridiculous.

[GVGjr]

In theory? In practice? Cos in reality we were a long way away.


Does he really deserve credit for possibly doing one aspect of his job well despite failing in many many others?



My original post was that I believed Bevo would acknowledge that he inherited a team that had been taught the correct way with regards to the defensive set up part of the game and at stoppages. I know that statement seems to be causing some angst among some here but it's not a shot a Beveridge, in fact far from it, as he has taken them to a level Macca could have never achieved.
In simple terms what was explained to me was that Bevo didn't have to start from scratch in that aspect.

I don't mind if people dump things on Macca but in some aspects I don't think he was as bad as he is being portrayed. That's the point I seem to be having some trouble making. His overall mark was a fail but the list he handed over was far better than he inherited.

The big win for Beveridge, which I don't think any of us really predicted, was losing the likes of Griffen, Cooney, Higgins and Jones etc.
The first 2 had a poor habit of only running hard forward and I think it didn't set a great example for our younger midfield. Now they all play hard at both ends of the ground.

[Remi Moses]

If it looks like a turd, smells like a turd, then it's more than likely a turd.

Did anyone hear Brad Scott's presser?
He had a turd in his back pocket