Is Western Bulldogs star Tom Boyd suffering from a premiership hangover?

[Bulldog4life]

Most players will experience a moment when they know they belong at AFL level, and for Tom Boyd it seemed like the grand final was that moment.

No matter what happens for the remainder of his career, that day can never be taken away from him. He stood tall on the biggest stage and ultimately delivered the Western Bulldogs a premiership, in turn ensuring their multimillion-dollar investment has already paid off.

But while that performance might live long in the memory for Dogs fans, Boyd now needs to ask himself: do I want to be remembered simply for a great grand final? Or do I want to want to be remembered as one of the greats, full stop?

Ultimately, the answer will come from his mental application. The very best players challenge themselves to get better every year, and I just wonder whether Boyd's had that frame of mind over the summer.

Let's not forget in last year's preliminary final he shouldered the ruck duties when Jordan Roughead went down injured. That performance was arguably as good as his grand final, despite being very different.

While his match against the Giants wasn't necessarily a big one on the stats sheet, it was dogged, hard-nosed and dour. He did what he had to do to get the job done. If you'd said before that day he'd be one-out against Shane Mumford, you'd think he was in for a flogging, but that wasn't the case.

The following week in the grand final he showed another side to his game, taking pack marks and kicking important goals. He didn't win the Norm Smith Medal, but I had him best on ground. That fortnight should have been the catalyst for a big season in 2017.

Yes, he's had his moments, and wouldn't be playing if Luke Beveridge didn't think he'd done the work, but has Boyd done everything he could to prepare? Or did he think it was just going to happen? I can't talk on his behalf, but given what Boyd produced in September and the confidence he would have gained by playing at such a high-level in the biggest game of his life, I've expected more.

In five games this season he has taken just one contested mark. In the grand final he took six. As a ruck-forward he just needs to go from contest to contest, but right now he still seems to have workrate issues and floats in and out of games.

Having said that, in a lot of ways his form mirrors that of the Dogs as a whole. Last year their premiership was built on manic pressure and winning the ball in tight. So far, they haven't been able to match that approach. The fact they've had five weeks less preparation than most sides could be a factor, but heading into round six they should have reached that real match-hardness.

The Dogs are playing a slightly different brand, and while it's allowed them to score more heavily, it's also allowed them to be scored against more easily as we saw against Brisbane last week. They're playing in bursts, rather than for the full four-quarters. At four and one it's not a major concern, but they won't be able to bring that spasmodic effort to Canberra when they take on GWS.

In the preliminary final, I thought the Giants might get the Dogs on the outside with their speed and run, but Beveridge's men were simply hungrier when it counted. They won the 50-50 contests and when their opponents had the ball they made sure tackles were rarely broken. If they don't bring that same intensity on Friday night and plan for a shootout I think the Giants will win and win well.

There's no doubt their last meeting will be at the forefront of everyone's thinking in Western Sydney and particularly for Jeremy Cameron. After a massive qualifying final in which he booted five goals against Sydney, Cameron produced one of the worst games he's played against the Dogs.

But in contrast to Boyd, there's been a real steeliness about his start to the season and it seems like his mental preparation has been top-class.

Cameron looks hungry and is attacking the footy more than ever. Like his teammates, he'll be hoping to erase those demons of 2016 on the Friday night stage. On the other hand, the Dogs can really press home a mental advantage against a side they're likely to face again later in the year.

This match has already become somewhat of a new age rivalry given the links between the two clubs. Callan Ward left the Dogs for the money in Sydney, while Boyd and Ryan Griffen traded places a few years ago.

Since then there's been no lack of feeling and given their age demographics it's likely be a strong rivalry for some time. While Boyd is still a work in progress, what better way to prove he really is a consistent big-time player, than by toppling his former team once again?

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/is-western-bulldogs-tom-boyd-suffering-from-a-premiership-hangover-20170427-gvtqiu.html

[Topdog]

Or is he a 21 year old still learning the game.

[bulldogtragic]

Or is he a 21 year old still learning the game.

Desperate stuff. Compare his career output with a heap of guns and compares really well at 43 games. Add in his PF & GF and has arguably ahead of the curve. Not to mention his forward team mates in Cloke, Redders & Dicko are injured as is Roughy. But never let reason or facts get in the way of a weak story. If the expectation is at 21, with injuries around him and coming off a shoulder reco, that he's going to have a GF type performance every 2-3 weeks, then one has ludicrously unrealistic expectations and do not know much about the game.

[Cyberdoggie]

I think he needs his eyes checked for one. Seems to not read the flight of the ball under lights very well, I watched him against the lions and on one occasion he adjusted his lead to the ball twice, ie he thought it was coming in shorter then longer, then shorter again.
He was actually in the right spot for the fall of the ball but then thought it was coming in shorter the last second and he undershot it again.

Someone also needs to teach him how to use his body in marking contests.

His body use is literally non existent, just runs at the ball, jumps straight up, doesn't protect his space, or alter his run to out position the defender. Marks life very easy for defenders who just run along side him and spoil him at every chance.

There are some highlights of Fergus Greene kicking his 5 goals for Footscray last weekend. He is excellent at the above for such a young, inexperienced and slightly built kid. He made marking look easy (granted the defenders weren't very good), just stood there, stuck his bum out at the right time, or turned his body to protect the fall of the ball and took the mark without a hand near him.

This is why I worry for Boyd, he has probably relied on being big and tall for so long that he didn't even need to develop these skills.

Anyway he did stand up in the finals to some extent and maybe he'll play better tonight.

[Flamethrower]

Tom had an interrupted preseason due to reconstructive shoulder surgery.

In round 1 he had to ruck virtually by himself against a very good ruckman in Grundy.
In round 2 he had a slow start before a good 2nd half contributed to our win over the Swans.
No idea how he went against Freo - I missed the game due to work.
Then he was concussed in the 1st quarter against North, and would have still been feeling the effects of that against Brisbane last week.

Once Roughy is back, and Tom can play the majority of the time up forward with Trav Cloke and Stew Crameri, then we will get a better indication of how young Tom is tracking.

[Twodogs]

Desperate stuff. Compare his career output with a heap of guns and compares really well at 43 games. Add in his PF & GF and has arguably ahead of the curve. Not to mention his forward team mates in Cloke, Redders & Dicko are injured as is Roughy. But never let reason or facts get in the way of a weak story. If the expectation is at 21, with injuries around him and coming off a shoulder reco, that he's going to have a GF type performance every 2-3 weeks, then one has ludicrously unrealistic expectations and do not know much about the game.

What's the Carey comparison at 43 games BT?

[bulldogtragic]

What's the Carey comparison at 43 games BT?

WC: 60.40 - The best pure CHF of the modern age, easily. With Longmire, Fridge, Schwass, Allison and others up forward.

TB: 40.23 with a reconstructed shoulder, and playing ruck.

[Twodogs]

WC: 60.40 - The best pure CHF of the modern age, easily. With Longmire, Fridge, Schwass, Allison and others up forward.

TB: 40.23 with a reconstructed shoulder, and playing ruck.

Far out that's impressive from Carey. He's a bit like Tom being the great white hope at a down trodden suburban club and all of a sudden started to fire it to premierships. He's twice the bloke Carey is though. I can't see Tom Boyd ever being a pariah at any club. Except GWS of course but who cares about them? They will probably be gone by the time Tom finishes his career.

Speaking of Tom Boyd I was watching Peter Wright snapping goals on his wrong foot from 30 metres out tonight and it struck me how much more better for his development it's been spending most of his time in the forward line. Us banging Tom Boyd around in the ruck week after week instead of letting him develop as a key forward for 80% of the game may have been one of the contributing factors to that dud shot last night.

He must have have been exhausted after running all over the ground most of the night. And sore with Mumford smashing into him at every contest. And because he isn't playing forward he has missed out on having lots of shots under match conditions.

I know it was a case of needs must last night because we'd run out of ruckman. But I can't help thinking we missed the boat by not recruiting a big bodied durable ruck man in the off season. Or making a big play for Trengove from Port. He's been great this year for them. He would have been much better filling in or at least sharing the ruck duties yesterday instead of Boyd for so many reasons

[GVGjr]

Interesting point TD on Boyd. While he has to do some ruck work I also think his development as a key forward means he needs to spend more time up there as the key forward. I still can't see the sense in paying him what we do to be a mid tier ruckman especially given what it also cost us to get him to get him to the club in terms of the trade. It was a massive investment and yet we seem to have given up on him being a dominant forward because it's convenient to use him as a back-up ruckman. Lets put some support around him so that he can spend 80% game time as our main target.

It takes time to develop a lot of young key forwards and I wonder how Tom Hawkins would have gone if we has being chopped and changed in the role he was playing for the Cats.

[bulldogtragic]

Exactly. He's also said on a number of occasions how heavy his legs get rucking too much. The last time he mentioned he used to take speccys as a junior but that rucking makes his legs too heavy to jump like that. I also believe the heavy legs he talks about have impacted his goal kicking. From junior to his initial time as a forward with us he was 70% career goal kicking accuracy which is remarkably reliable. Now I wouldn't say I have unflinching doubt when he gets it late in matches.

I put the numbers up the other day, and he compares very favourably with other big forwards at the same point. So at least statistically speaking, we should be investing in his development as forward even Moreso to ensure he turns out as good as other gun forwards. He's not a gun ruckman, he's 200+cm & 100+kg and someone that size can be competitive. With the rules now the way they are, even Jarrod Witts is getting games and at times looking alright and he costs 1/4 of Boyds salary.

We saw what he could do on GF day. We know he's a naturally gifted gun KPF, that's why he went at pick one by a country mile over Kelly, Billings & Bonts. We know he can take huge marks, we know his goal kicking accuracy is excellent and we know his career output (despite rucking and a shoulder reco) compares well to Jon Brown, Pavlich, Nick Riewoldt, Josh Kennedy etc. So if Tom despite those impediments has provided similar output to these guys, I would think we'd be crazy to not spend every once of energy improving his forward craft and giving him as much time up forward to learn and develop, with pinch hitting help.

[Webby]

With Redpath, Cloke and Roughead all injured, Boyd's simply taking one for the team at the moment.

A classic thoroughbred doing donkey work for the good of the club. A well paid workhorse, though!!

It's all good. Good for Tom in the long run and good for the club in both the short and the long run.

[GVGjr]

With Redpath, Cloke and Roughead all injured, Boyd's simply taking one for the team at the moment.

A classic thoroughbred doing donkey work for the good of the club. A well paid workhorse, though!!

It's all good. Good for Tom in the long run and good for the club in both the short and the long run.

Yes and no. Why does it have to be as a ruckman when as you say we are also missing two key forward targets?
We either planned poorly by not replacing Minson with someone with a mature body who could fill in for a few games or we gambled on the fitness of two ruckman who haven't really proved they're that durable?

There is no question he has to do some ruck work but I hope we are looking to address for next season.

[comrade]

Roughead and Campbell both played through 2016 without any major, long term injury issues. Why plan for both of them to go down?

Boyd playing as ruck/forward won us a flag. It's an incredibly important position in the modern game, and he should split his time between forward and 2nd ruck moving forward.

Who cares how much we pay him. Playing him forward exclusively because of his contract rather than where he better suits the team (and his own capabilities) is insane.

[bulldogtragic]

Roughead and Campbell both played through 2016 without any major, long term injury issues. Why plan for both of them to go down?

Boyd playing as ruck/forward won us a flag. It's an incredibly important position in the modern game, and he should split his time between forward and 2nd ruck moving forward.

Who cares how much we pay him. Playing him forward exclusively because of his contract rather than where he better suits the team (and his own capabilities) is insane.

Not sure anyone is saying anything 'insane' like that. The reference to money, that at least I made, was that the rules now allow tall bean poles to have a spot in the modern game, like Jarrod Witts. So if we desire someone like that, we could go after one this year for nada salary and free Boyd up. I don't think that's going to happen. Also, Boyd was so highly regarded and aggressively pursued as a future gun KPF, not be over rucking and I've not seen anything to tell me he can't develop into that gun KPF at the level. Boyd can do the same thing in the ruck as Witts because he's a similar size. That doesn't make him a good ruckman, it's just his size.

The argument is he's been a gun forward, has the career output with other gun forwards at this stage, should help out a little in the ruck, but should be developed to be the gun forward those who followed him for many years know he can be. Over rucking him isn't good for his forward development. His development as a KP forward has significantly more mid and long term benefit to our club than over rucking a tall kid. I'd hate to think our investment in him will slow or reduce because he's rucking to the point the rest of his game suffers. He's very, very close to Josh Kennedy in career output to 43 games, his original draft selection, that he was traded early in a big trade. West Coast put the time into him as a forward and would be rapt with the outcome, and I'm suggesting we do it as much as we can possibly do. We have a rare talent on the list, and we just need to develop him and rucking the amount he has been is not going to develop his forward craft. When Camhead are fit I understand this will help.

[comrade]

I just don't see how Boyd becomes a top line key forward with his limited marking ability. He has a worse technique than just about any forward I've ever seen.

[bulldogtragic]

I just don't see how Boyd becomes a top line key forward with his limited marking ability. He has a worse technique than just about any forward I've ever seen.

For me, I'd rather his sole training and development focus being on rectifying and improving any marking issues rather than tap work and ruck positioning. I'd rather him have a more clear focus on his forward craft, including marking and leading/running patterns, and have to navigate himself into the game up forward and work through limited entries or quiet patches there to become more imposing.

After the GF I can't recall too much concern about his marking technique. I heard a lot of Dermott Breteton in the JLT banging on about his marking, something he wasn't doing when he was coaching him at GWS incidentally. He's a 21yo kid with time to improve his forward craft to become a dominant player. He can't do that if he's rucking too much and spending attention and training about ruck positioning and tap work. I guess I have a lot of faith in Tom and his ability to develop into the gun everyone knew he was when drafted & traded, past his current 44 games.

[comrade]

I guess I have a lot of faith in Tom and his ability to develop into the gun everyone knew he was when drafted & traded, past his current 44 games.

There have been plenty of top rated players that dominated as juniors that couldn't make the transition to the AFL. Boyd wouldn't be the first, and he won't be the last.

His GF performance was a complete outlier in terms of his career output. Now, I will forever love him for picking that particular day to produce that type of performance, but his marking (in his AFL career) has never been as good before and certainly since that game.

I think we're not that far away in our opinion. I don't think he should become a full time stay at home key forward and if he does, that he'll reach anywhere near the level of Josh Kennedy etc. I do think he should spend less time rucking: a 75/25% split seems about right. He is relatively mobile, he kicks the ball beautifully around the ground and his ruck work is improving quickly. Games like Friday do him no favours where he is rucking 90%.

I'd love to be wrong and he turns into Josh Kennedy v2.0, with Roughead and eventually English taking all the ruck work. I just personally don't see him being capable of it.

[bulldogtragic]

Nothing wrong with differing opinions. For me, he's only 21, played only 44 games and I personally wouldn't include his name even remotely close to a discussion about top rated kids who didn't make the transition in the AFL.

He will be just fine if developed right.

[Happy Days]

Nothing wrong with differing opinions. For me, he's only 21, played only 44 games and I personally wouldn't include his name even remotely close to a discussion about top rated kids who didn't make the transition in the AFL.

He will be just fine if developed right.

You know what would help his development as a key forward? Playing him as a key forward. The rucking has to stop as soon as Roughead can go.

[Twodogs]

Roughead and Campbell both played through 2016 without any major, long term injury issues. Why plan for both of them to go down?

Boyd playing as ruck/forward won us a flag. It's an incredibly important position in the modern game, and he should split his time between forward and 2nd ruck moving forward.

Who cares how much we pay him. Playing him forward exclusively because of his contract rather than where he better suits the team (and his own capabilities) is insane.

Then let's play him forward because he is a very promising key forward who needs to learn his craft.


Not sure anyone is saying anything 'insane' like that. The reference to money, that at least I made, was that the rules now allow tall bean poles to have a spot in the modern game, like Jarrod Witts. So if we desire someone like that, we could go after one this year for nada salary and free Boyd up. I don't think that's going to happen. Also, Boyd was so highly regarded and aggressively pursued as a future gun KPF, not be over rucking and I've not seen anything to tell me he can't develop into that gun KPF at the level. Boyd can do the same thing in the ruck as Witts because he's a similar size. That doesn't make him a good ruckman, it's just his size.

The argument is he's been a gun forward, has the career output with other gun forwards at this stage, should help out a little in the ruck, but should be developed to be the gun forward those who followed him for many years know he can be. Over rucking him isn't good for his forward development. His development as a KP forward has significantly more mid and long term benefit to our club than over rucking a tall kid. I'd hate to think our investment in him will slow or reduce because he's rucking to the point the rest of his game suffers. He's very, very close to Josh Kennedy in career output to 43 games, his original draft selection, that he was traded early in a big trade. West Coast put the time into him as a forward and would be rapt with the outcome, and I'm suggesting we do it as much as we can possibly do. We have a rare talent on the list, and we just need to develop him and rucking the amount he has been is not going to develop his forward craft. When Camhead are fit I understand this will help.

Yep. At the moment it's needs must but I'm becoming more convinced that we erred at the last trade period in not making a difficult call on a guy like Prudden and going hell for leather after Trengove or, failing that, a ruckman who could have stepped into the breech in case everthing went pear shaped with the two and a half ruckmen we had.


I just don't see how Boyd becomes a top line key forward with his limited marking ability. He has a worse technique than just about any forward I've ever seen.

Match practice. It's a simple technique issue that can be fixed by forward craft learned by playing in the forward line. He's not going to learn those things unless he is playing as a forward because when something like that happens he knows he's going to get another chance at it soon.


You know what would help his development as a key forward? Playing him as a key forward. The rucking has to stop as soon as Roughead can go.

Perzactly.

[comrade]

Boyd's 21, not playing under 7s Auskick. If he can't take regulation marks consistently now, I doubt he ever will.

[GVGjr]

I just don't see how Boyd becomes a top line key forward with his limited marking ability. He has a worse technique than just about any forward I've ever seen.

That's a very damning assessment. Do you really believe that?

I think with the right coaching and support he could be a very good key forward. He just needs time and patience to develop his game

[bulldogtragic]

Boyd's 21, not playing under 7s Auskick. If he can't take regulation marks consistently now, I doubt he ever will.

Best trade him while his value is good.

[GVGjr]

Roughead and Campbell both played through 2016 without any major, long term injury issues. Why plan for both of them to go down?

Boyd playing as ruck/forward won us a flag. It's an incredibly important position in the modern game, and he should split his time between forward and 2nd ruck moving forward.

Who cares how much we pay him. Playing him forward exclusively because of his contract rather than where he better suits the team (and his own capabilities) is insane.

Campbell missed 8 games last year including a 6 weeks spell with a foot injury. Roughead has been injury prone but he certainly did have a very good 2016. I'd say it's stretching things to say we should have been close to 100% confident that both boys could back it up again.

As for the insane comment, well the club was after a young key forward, desperate for one even bidding our 6th pick on Darcy Moore before moving the 6th pick, a club captain and we paid some of his salary to what would eventually be an emerging rival to get a blockbuster deal done.
It's also worth noting that we paid Boyd a significant contract and commitment to get the deal done.
The clubs comments that followed indicated we had the forward we had been chasing for years and in time it would be money well spent.

Given all that, I'm not sure why so many have given up on that focus given Boyd has had some challenges with shoulder injuries etc during his time with us. I also think you can find ruckman easier than you can potentially dominant key forwards so I don't get the insane comment about wanting him to be given a good chance to develop as a key forward.

Why wouldn't we put some support around him to see if can become the player we went 'all in' for?

[bulldogtragic]

Campbell missed 8 games last year including a 6 weeks spell with a foot injury. Roughead has been injury prone but he certainly did have a very good 2016. I'd say it's stretching things to say we should have been close to 100% confident that both boys could back it up again.

As for the insane comment, well the club was after a young key forward, desperate for one even bidding our 6th pick on Darcy Moore before moving the 6th pick, a club captain and we paid some of his salary to what would eventually be an emerging rival to get a blockbuster deal done.
It's also worth noting that we paid Boyd a significant contract and commitment to get the deal done.
The clubs comments that followed indicated we had the forward we had been chasing for years and in time it would be money well spent.

Given all that, I'm not sure why so many have given up on that focus given Boyd has had some challenges with shoulder injuries etc during his time with us. I also think you can find ruckman easier than you can potentially dominant key forwards so I don't get the insane comment about wanting him to be given a good chance to develop as a key forward.

Why wouldn't we put some support around him to see if can become the player we went 'all in' for?

Precisely, for the negative assessments and comments from different areas, Tom's record compares favourably with Josh Kennedy, Pavlich, Nick Riewoldt, Jon Brown, Trav Cloke etc.

If Tom has done this, and achieved a comparable output despite all these apparent glaring faults (and shoulder reco and playing ruck) in his game, then just imagine what Tom could do if he's developed properly as a key forward to overcome the faults? One logical extension is that if he has a higher ceiling in him than those above, then he could be better and every bit the gun if we develop him accordingly. Now is the time age and games experience to go 'all in' in his development.

[GVGjr]

For me, I'd rather his sole training and development focus being on rectifying and improving any marking issues rather than tap work and ruck positioning. I'd rather him have a more clear focus on his forward craft, including marking and leading/running patterns, and have to navigate himself into the game up forward and work through limited entries or quiet patches there to become more imposing.



I think this should have been our approaching going into the season but losing Roughead for an extended period and with Campbell a bit behind in preparation it's forced our hand with Boyd. If we look to find some support next year I think we should because he will be approaching a good period from an age and experience profile next year.




After the GF I can't recall too much concern about his marking technique. I heard a lot of Dermott Breteton in the JLT banging on about his marking, something he wasn't doing when he was coaching him at GWS incidentally. He's a 21yo kid with time to improve his forward craft to become a dominant player. He can't do that if he's rucking too much and spending attention and training about ruck positioning and tap work. I guess I have a lot of faith in Tom and his ability to develop into the gun everyone knew he was when drafted & traded, past his current 44 games.

He's got some work to do but that's why we have so many coaches and if necessary a VFL side that plays in the same manner of the senior side. Dermott makes some good observations but I think his one of Boyd is wrong.

I agree we need to show more faith in the player.

[GVGjr]

Precisely, for the negative assessments and comments from different areas, Tom's record compares favourably with Josh Kennedy, Pavlich, Nick Riewoldt, Jon Brown, Trav Cloke etc.

If Tom has done this, and achieved a comparable output despite all these apparent glaring faults (and shoulder reco and playing ruck) in his game, then just imagine what Tom could do if he's developed properly as a key forward to overcome the faults? One logical extension is that if he has a higher ceiling in him than those above, then he could be better and every bit the gun if we develop him accordingly. Now is the time age and games experience to go 'all in' in his development.

Nearly all young key positions players have flaws in their game and as you pointed out clubs should take the longer term view on the players with the 'higher ceiling'.

Yes Boyd has to be that forward ruckman but the hard work is more about developing him as a forward.

[comrade]

Best trade him while his value is good.

As if anyone would take his contract on ;)

[bulldogtragic]

Nearly all young key positions players have flaws in their game and as you pointed out clubs should take the longer term view on the players with the 'higher ceiling'.

Yes Boyd has to be that forward ruckman but the hard work is more about developing him as a forward.

Who knows in time if he has to be. If Roughy is still best 22 by the time English is playing well at the level (whenever that is), essentially as a very tall midfielder who can ruck, then Boyd may not be rucking that much and spending most time forward. Which is precisely why the forward development is so important now going ahead. It's interesting that for most of my life I've heard us lament not having a pick 1 type KPF at the Dogs. Now we've got one...

[lemmon]

Who knows in time if he has to be. If Roughy is still best 22 by the time English is playing well at the level (whenever that is), essentially as a very tall midfielder who can ruck, then Boyd may not be rucking that much and spending most time forward. Which is precisely why the forward development is so important now going ahead. It's interesting that for most of my life I've heard us lament not having a pick 1 type KPF at the Dogs. Now we've got one...

And especially while Boyd has the luxury of someone like Cloke there with him, taking a big defender and a lot of pressure off. For all his struggles last year, Trav definitely made things easier for Darcy Moore when he was up there with him.

[hujsh]

Who knows in time if he has to be. If Roughy is still best 22 by the time English is playing well at the level (whenever that is), essentially as a very tall midfielder who can ruck, then Boyd may not be rucking that much and spending most time forward. Which is precisely why the forward development is so important now going ahead. It's interesting that for most of my life I've heard us lament not having a pick 1 type KPF at the Dogs. Now we've got one...
Long term English and Roughead could be a very interesting ruck partnership. Even gives us the flexibility to throw Rough back if say Adams is looking undersized (like we did with Carlton and Casboult last year). If that works out we need Boyd to be a forward to fit him in the team (and if he can occasionally cover for Roughy that's great and helps cover in game injuries too.)

[bulldogtragic]

And especially while Boyd has the luxury of someone like Cloke there with him, taking a big defender and a lot of pressure off. For all his struggles last year, Trav definitely made things easier for Darcy Moore when he was up there with him.

Great point. Moore would love Trav back right now. Also, the experience of playing at full forward and seeing how Trav & Crameri work up the ground in front of him. You can't substitute in game experience in specialist positions, and Boyd will be a better KPF for every second of that experience. This stuff will make him a better player and our team better. Him running around neutralising ruck contests doesn't make a huge impact, and with a freshly reconstructed shoulder, I'd prefer him to ruck as little as possible from a risk/reward perspective.

[bulldogtragic]

Long term English and Roughead could be a very interesting ruck partnership. Even gives us the flexibility to throw Rough back if say Adams is looking undersized (like we did with Carlton and Casboult last year). If that works out we need Boyd to be a forward to fit him in the team (and if he can occasionally cover for Roughy that's great and helps cover in game injuries too.)

The Roughy, Boyd & English combo has a great look to it, doesn't it? Three guys who can ruck, but whose other or primary area is in each of three zones on the ground. Even if they took the ruck contests in the three zones, it makes for a very flexible set up. All signs point to developing Boyd as a KP forward and improving his weaknesses and focussing on his strengths. When he kicked a small bag and got a Rising Star nomination, I think we were all happy. I hope we can get that combo going well, and ASAP.

[GVGjr]

Long term English and Roughead could be a very interesting ruck partnership. Even gives us the flexibility to throw Rough back if say Adams is looking undersized (like we did with Carlton and Casboult last year). If that works out we need Boyd to be a forward to fit him in the team (and if he can occasionally cover for Roughy that's great and helps cover in game injuries too.)

On the issue of ruckman, you can certainly go into games with one of them but it does help no end if you have two others capable of having a stint or two there to provide some relief.

It's dawned on me reading your post that perhaps the player English might develop into over time is a bit like Mark Blicavs. He might not play on a wing because it's doubtful he will have the running power of Blicavs but perhaps initially as a high half forward who creates a lot of mismatches for the opposition who also takes a turn or two in the ruck. It's going to take some time and patience but he should eventually develop into a fine ruckman and versatile footballer.

[ratsmac]

When I started my carpentry apprenticeship I could barely swing a hammer, 4 years later I could build a house frame. My point being Tom Boyd's forward craft, marking craft and I suppose ruck craft will improve with guidance and practice. It's crazy to think if Boyd isn't a good contested mark now that he can't learn the right techniques and be able to become a great mark in time.

I thought he's game against Mumford the other night showed a side Tom that he a highly competitive person and is willing to sacrifice his natural game for the benefit of the team. He was in no way disgraced in a craft that I believe he's only had a couple of years learning against one of the leagues best and scariest ruckman. With his natural talent and natural improvement for a 21 year old, that is the type of player I want playing I want in the RWB.

Once we get Roughead, Campbell, Redpath and Cloke back where Tom doesn't have to shoulder so much of the ruck duties, I have no doubt we will see Tom improve his forward craft to the level we recruited him for.

[chef]

Once we get Roughead, Campbell, Redpath and Cloke back where Tom doesn't have to shoulder so much of the ruck duties, I have no doubt we will see Tom improve his forward craft to the level we recruited him for.

We can only play 3 of those tall guys in the same side.

Roughie, Boyd and probs Cloke.

[Remi Moses]

You can't recruit on a whim that players might not be durable, We'd end up having a list thats lopsided .
Could also have a situation with 3 fit ruckmen , and an 18 y/o rookie!
If that arose where do they play at the lower level ?

[ratsmac]

We can only play 3 of those tall guys in the same side.

Roughie, Boyd and probs Cloke.I realise that, I was just trying to say that when we have the luxury of options we'll see him blossom.

[comrade]

When I started my carpentry apprenticeship I could barely swing a hammer, 4 years later I could build a house frame. My point being Tom Boyd's forward craft, marking craft and I suppose ruck craft will improve with guidance and practice. It's crazy to think if Boyd isn't a good contested mark now that he can't learn the right techniques and be able to become a great mark in time.

I thought he's game against Mumford the other night showed a side Tom that he a highly competitive person and is willing to sacrifice his natural game for the benefit of the team. He was in no way disgraced in a craft that I believe he's only had a couple of years learning against one of the leagues best and scariest ruckman. With his natural talent and natural improvement for a 21 year old, that is the type of player I want playing I want in the RWB.

Once we get Roughead, Campbell, Redpath and Cloke back where Tom doesn't have to shoulder so much of the ruck duties, I have no doubt we will see Tom improve his forward craft to the level we recruited him for.

To use your analogy, Boyd started swinging a hammer 15 years ago. If he doesn't know how to build a pencil box by now (ie. take stock standard marks consistently), I doubt he ever will.

[comrade]

You can't recruit on a whim that players might not be durable, We'd end up having a list thats lopsided .
Could also have a situation with 3 fit ruckmen , and an 18 y/o rookie!
If that arose where do they play at the lower level ?

And how many AFL quality mature ruckman are prepared to be 3rd in line as a break in case of emergency option? Can't think of many that were picked up in the off season.

[bulldogtragic]

To use your analogy, Boyd started swinging a hammer 15 years ago. If he doesn't know how to build a pencil box by now (ie. take stock standard marks consistently), I doubt he ever will.

Wow. Six games after his GF, two where he rucked solo on very good ruckmen, and Comrade has called it.

Expect Damien Barrett & Leigh Matthews to be using 'sources close to the club' (above) saying 'they've given up on Tom Boyd being the player they hoped for when traded for'.

[AndrewP6]

To use your analogy, Boyd started swinging a hammer 15 years ago. If he doesn't know how to build a pencil box by now (ie. take stock standard marks consistently), I doubt he ever will.

Surely you're not counting early childhood in Tom's development as an AFL player? That's ludicrous.

[GVGjr]

To use your analogy, Boyd started swinging a hammer 15 years ago. If he doesn't know how to build a pencil box by now (ie. take stock standard marks consistently), I doubt he ever will.

I really don't get why you are writing him off as a forward?

Perhaps it was the euphoria of the GF win but you've greatly changed your opinion of him in the space of seven games and he's gone from GF hero to an almost dud forward in the blink of your eye.

Could you chucking him under the bus a bit prematurely?

[GVGjr]

You can't recruit on a whim that players might not be durable, We'd end up having a list thats lopsided .
Could also have a situation with 3 fit ruckmen , and an 18 y/o rookie!
If that arose where do they play at the lower level ?

We were the premiership side that was losing players, why not top up on a versatile tall who could potentially fill in if required?

[comrade]

Surely you're not counting early childhood in Tom's development as an AFL player? That's ludicrous.

I'm assuming he's been playing footy since he was 5 years old like most top level footballers.

[comrade]

Wow. Six games after his GF, two where he rucked solo on very good ruckmen, and Comrade has called it.

Expect Damien Barrett & Leigh Matthews to be using 'sources close to the club' (above) saying 'they've given up on Tom Boyd being the player they hoped for when traded for'.

I'm more than happy for this to blow up in my face when he becomes an 80 goal a year forward. Nothing would make me happier.

But there's a reason I didn't gush about Liam Jones in that infamous WOOF thread. As a counterpoint, Jones' career stats compared to Boyd are better at the same age. More marks on average, more goals on average and the same disposals despite being a focal point inside the forward 50. Yes, Jones didn't have the ruck to worry about but it's not as if Boyd has rucked 1 out for every single one of his matches.

[bulldogtragic]

I'm assuming he's been playing footy since he was 5 years old like most top level footballers.

I heard Tom, the dirty bludger, at kindergarten would leave on his finger paint before kick to kick to make the footy stick in his hands. If we did our due diligence as a club, recruiting someone who can't legally mark a footy never would've happened.

[comrade]

I heard Tom, the dirty bludger, at kindergarten would leave on his finger paint before kick to kick to make the footy stick in his hands. If we did our due diligence as a club, recruiting someone who can't legally mark a footy never would've happened.

Wish he'd do it now. He'd average more than 2.3 marks a game.

[bulldogtragic]

I'm more than happy for this to blow up in my face when he becomes an 80 goal a year forward. Nothing would make me happier.

But there's a reason I didn't gush about Liam Jones in that infamous WOOF thread. As a counterpoint, Jones' career stats compared to Boyd are better at the same age. More marks on average, more goals on average and the same disposals despite being a focal point inside the forward 50. Yes, Jones didn't have the ruck to worry about but it's not as if Boyd has rucked 1 out for every single one of his matches.

Now you compare a contested beast, to an actual contested beast. How much is Liam paying you to be mentioned on the same Internet as Tom? All the best on this one.

[jeemak]

Jones' issues are pretty much between the ears. He has talent he can't capitalise upon. He has his weaknesses of course, but nothing that couldn't have been worked around.

Boyd doesn't bare a resemblance to Jones on this front as far as I can tell. He may not turn out to be the perfect key forward but I'm sure with further practice and support he can be a really good one.

[Topdog]

To use your analogy, Boyd started swinging a hammer 15 years ago. If he doesn't know how to build a pencil box by now (ie. take stock standard marks consistently), I doubt he ever will.

He takes those marks around the ground fairly consistently. Its usually when he is in the F50 that he fails

[Mofra]

Yes and no. Why does it have to be as a ruckman when as you say we are also missing two key forward targets?
We either planned poorly by not replacing Minson with someone with a mature body who could fill in for a few games or we gambled on the fitness of two ruckman who haven't really proved they're that durable?
Which mature ruckmen were available?

Only a few changed clubs and they were guys like Vardy and Witts who had a legitimate chance of being their club's no 1 ruckmen when they arrive (and Vardy is more injury prone than virtually anyone else in the competition).
Whoever came to us would know they are depth and would need to rely on multiple injuries to get senior gametime.

I'm sure we asked the question, there was just nobody good enough who was available.

[chef]

We went after Nankervis but he chose Richmond. Not sure they was to much else around of value.

[chef]

I just don't see it with Boyd as a KPF at this level, his hands are Minson like at times and he just doesn't look a 'natural forward' like others his age eg Daniher, Moore, Hogan etc.

More than happy with his ruck/forward progression though and he and Roughie are going to be formidable once Jordan is fit again.

[comrade]

Which mature ruckmen were available?

Only a few changed clubs and they were guys like Vardy and Witts who had a legitimate chance of being their club's no 1 ruckmen when they arrive (and Vardy is more injury prone than virtually anyone else in the competition).
Whoever came to us would know they are depth and would need to rely on multiple injuries to get senior gametime.

I'm sure we asked the question, there was just nobody good enough who was available.

Yep, it's fine to say we should have prepared better/had more foresight but its not easy to just conjure up a quality depth ruckman that is happy to play 3rd fiddle on what's likely a below average contract ($$ wise).

And shock horror: perhaps Bevo sees Boyd more as a ruck/forward rather than a pure KPF (especially considering we brought in Cloke to fill that role) and considers him as part of our overall ruck depth.

[Mofra]

I just don't see it with Boyd as a KPF at this level, his hands are Minson like at times and he just doesn't look a 'natural forward' like others his age eg Daniher, Moore, Hogan etc.

More than happy with his ruck/forward progression though and he and Roughie are going to be formidable once Jordan is fit again.
Boyd gets to the right positions though, far more than Minson would/could.
I think we are developing in the 2nd ruck role as it's so difficult to fill... but in 2 years with Roughy and English in the side I'd expect Roughy to play 2nd ruck, English to play no 1 ruck and Boyd to play full time forward.

[Twodogs]

Boyd gets to the right positions though, far more than Minson would/could.
I think we are developing in the 2nd ruck role as it's so difficult to fill... but in 2 years with Roughy and English in the side I'd expect Roughy to play 2nd ruck, English to play no 1 ruck and Boyd to play full time forward.

Then should we be playing him forward more now to learn his craft better? So his concrete hands become a bit softer and the ball sinks into them rather than bounces off.

[Ozza]

Boyd gets to the right positions though, far more than Minson would/could.
I think we are developing in the 2nd ruck role as it's so difficult to fill... but in 2 years with Roughy and English in the side I'd expect Roughy to play 2nd ruck, English to play no 1 ruck and Boyd to play full time forward.

As a 2nd ruck, are you suggesting that Roughy spends the bulk of his time forward...with Tom Boyd also playing forward? I'd love to be a running defender against the Bulldogs in a few years in that case.

[Happy Days]

And shock horror: perhaps Bevo sees Boyd more as a ruck/forward rather than a pure KPF (especially considering we brought in Cloke to fill that role) and considers him as part of our overall ruck depth.

I wouldn't think it would be very on-brand of Bevo to pigeon-hole someone so young with so much upside into a role that they've never really played previously; seems far more of a McCartney-type move.

[Mofra]

As a 2nd ruck, are you suggesting that Roughy spends the bulk of his time forward...with Tom Boyd also playing forward? I'd love to be a running defender against the Bulldogs in a few years in that case.
Do you think Roughy as a 60-70% forward is much different to Cloke in terms of defensive pressure?


Then should we be playing him forward more now to learn his craft better? So his concrete hands become a bit softer and the ball sinks into them rather than bounces off.
Necessity more than development right now - our ruck cupboard is bare and having the ability to chop out in the ruck makes him much more valuable to the team long term.

We never know what lies around the corner and virtually nobody in our line up plays 100% of game-time in one position game in, game out.

[chef]

Boyd gets to the right positions though, far more than Minson would/could.
I think we are developing in the 2nd ruck role as it's so difficult to fill... but in 2 years with Roughy and English in the side I'd expect Roughy to play 2nd ruck, English to play no 1 ruck and Boyd to play full time forward.

Agree his positioning is better than Minnows, but his hard hands are about the same. Not a great attribute for KPFs.

[MrMahatma]

While we have injuries to tall blokes, we can't really tell where Bevo would prefer to play Boyd, nor where he plays best. He's doing what the team requires at the moment and should be thanked for that.

[Ozza]

While we have injuries to tall blokes, we can't really tell where Bevo would prefer to play Boyd, nor where he plays best. He's doing what the team requires at the moment and should be thanked for that.

He is. Handsomely ;)

[Twodogs]

Necessity more than development right now - our ruck cupboard is bare and having the ability to chop out in the ruck makes him much more valuable to the team long term.

We never know what lies around the corner and virtually nobody in our line up plays 100% of game-time in one position game in, game out.

Yep, so true about the need to play him in the ruck ATM. I read in a match review on Saturday that our ruckmen on Friday night were Tom Boyd with a chop out from Josh Dunkley!

[LostDoggy]

I honestly think Tom is more worried about bringing the ball to ground than actually marking it. Maybe it's a coaching issue? it's been drummed into him to bring the ball to the deck.

Also worth remembering he had major shoulder surgery in the off-season, issues with having his arms above his head could still linger.

He will get there. All this time in the ruck is building his endurance nicely. When Roughy returns we will start seeing what Tom is really capable of as a KPF.