The Always Right Match Committee - Round 6 vs Carlton

[Eastdog]

Welcome to the Always Right Match Committee Thread. This has been named after a long time WOOF member who tragically passed away in March 2018.

Always Right (https://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?17881-Vale-always-right)

If you were on the Western Bulldogs match committee what changes would you make for our round 6, 2018 match against Carlton at Etihad Stadium?

As always a brief explanation for your changes would add a lot of value to the discussion.

[GVGjr]

Bump

[angelopetraglia]

Hunter, Williams in

Dicko, Webb out

Maybe Trengrove in for Naughton for a rest

[westbulldog]

Hunter, Williams in

Dicko, Webb out



Agree with that at this stage

[GVGjr]

I need to give this some more thought but
In - Hunter, Williams, Porter
Out - Dickson, Dale, Richards

Should consider Young and maybe Roberts as a key forward

[FrediKanoute]

I think we are one tall short in terms of team balance (not that it would have made much difference today). When Boyd was not in the forward line we were left well and truly without someone to help link the play together. Personally my ins and outs would be:

Out: Dickson, Gowers, Webb (just about the end I feel for this kid)
In: Hunter, Williams, Young

[G-Mo77]

Ins Williams, Hunter, Redpath
Out Dixon, Webb, Lipinski

[ratsmac]

My first thoughts would be

Ins: Hunter, Williams, Trengrove, Young

Outs: Lipinski, Honeychurch, Dickson, Naughton (He took a heavy head knock)

[bornadog]

Ins Williams, Hunter, Redpath
Out Dixon, Webb, Lipinski

Redpath could be out for 3 weeks.

Bevo mentioned Crozier will be available next week along with Hunter and Williams.

[G-Mo77]

Redpath could be out for 3 weeks.

Bevo mentioned Crozier will be available next week along with Hunter and Williams.

Ahh well scratch that then. I did hear him mention Crozier but does he come straight back in? Trengove get through OK yesterday?

[josie]

In:Crozier, Williams, Hunter
Out: Dale, Dickson, Richards or Lipinski

Possibly Young in for Naughton and Roughy for English if sore

Last chance for Webb on Friday

[Smads57]

Trengove get through OK yesterday?
Yes he played the whole game against Geelong

[lemmon]

In: Trengrove, Williams, Hunter
Out: Dickson, Richards, Gowers

Get some experience back in there with Trengrove and Hunter.

Boyd plays permanent forward and Bont permanent on ball. Trengrove rucks and plays the second tall forward role.

I'd play Dale as forward - he can hit the scoreboard and isn't getting involved enough around the ball.

[Happy Days]

In: Williams, Hunter, Biggs

Out: Richards, Gowers, Dickson

I watched the game after a buddy's engagement party so probably wasn't in the right headspace to be too analytical (or to watch whatever it was we were trying to do last night) but as always, we will be better if Gowers doesn't play.

Tempted to bring Roughy/Trengove back in to give English some support - he got monstered a few times by Sandilands last night - but think we'd be unbalanced that way and also that Trengove shouldn't play.

[LostDoggy]

Can see a number of changes this week. Poor performances, a 6 day break for a young team bak from Perth in wet conditions and good performers becoming available. l'll go:

OUT: Dickson, Webb, Dale, Naughton, Richards
IN: Hunter, Williams, Young, Crozier, Trengove

[Eastdog]

In: Williams, Hunter, Biggs

Out: Richards, Gowers, Dickson

I watched the game after a buddy's engagement party so probably wasn't in the right headspace to be too analytical (or to watch whatever it was we were trying to do last night) but as always, we will be better if Gowers doesn't play.

Tempted to bring Roughy/Trengove back in to give English some support - he got monstered a few times by Sandilands last night - but think we'd be unbalanced that way and also that Trengove shouldn't play.

I thought Gowers like Honeychurch tried hard last night. Kicked a couple in the last.

[Bullies]

I thought Gowers like Honeychurch tried hard last night. Kicked a couple in the last. Gowers tries had every week he just doesn't have it. Too see Long run around with the Saints and the silky skills he has tells me we got this one wrong.

[Eastdog]

Gowers tries had every week he just doesn't have it. Too see Long run around with the Saints and the silky skills he has tells me we got this one wrong.

At VFL level from what I've seen at AFL Level he would be very good. Webb was dissapointing seems to play well at VFL level but can't translate that good work to AFL.

[azabob]

Gowers tries had every week he just doesn't have it. Too see Long run around with the Saints and the silky skills he has tells me we got this one wrong.

I don’t understand the comparison? It’s not as though we chose Gowers over Long.

[bornadog]

I don’t understand the comparison? It’s not as though we chose Gowers over Long.

and a year apart

[FrediKanoute]

In: Williams, Hunter, Biggs

Out: Richards, Gowers, Dickson

I watched the game after a buddy's engagement party so probably wasn't in the right headspace to be too analytical (or to watch whatever it was we were trying to do last night) but as always, we will be better if Gowers doesn't play.

Tempted to bring Roughy/Trengove back in to give English some support - he got monstered a few times by Sandilands last night - but think we'd be unbalanced that way and also that Trengove shouldn't play.

I agree on the Gowers point - offered very little in the 1st half. Was better in the 2nd and kicked a couple of junk time goals - personally, we could do better.

[westdog54]

Gowers tries had every week he just doesn't have it. Too see Long run around with the Saints and the silky skills he has tells me we got this one wrong.

I'm getting sick of Long's name being thrown around in these discussions.

The only way we recruit Ben Long is to not draft English.

Yes, it's unfortunate that he was at Footscray and we couldn't draft him, but thats the price of winning a premiership, a weak draft position.

[mjp]

Gowers is neither the problem nor the solution and I don't know why we all keep talking about him.

The heart of the problem on Saturday night was that Fyfe absolutely KILLED us - particularly in the contest. Was there any danger of our best player standing up and challenging him? Yep - this should have been Bont and I know we all love him but for the love of all that is holy...when the opposition's gun player is taking the game away from us, he needs to be the one who takes it back. It honestly doesn't really matter what guys like Richards and Gowers and Webb and whoever else is on the fringes of the team does - anything they do at this stage is a BONUS!

Does anyone else remember Liber slowing down the Kennedy influence in the 2nd half of the GF? I know that was a lifetime ago, but SOMEONE - and it needed to be Bont (or Macrae since he was getting tagged out of it anyway) - had to go to Fyfe?

Honestly, this is u15's stuff. We have Fyfe with 13x clearances and Wilson with 10x inside 50's...was it not obvious they were the keys to the game and we needed to do SOMETHING about them when the half time break came around? If the players on the field hadn't noticed it, then the coaches should have. But surely our half forwards had a vague awareness that Wilson was running riot and he was ON one of them...likewise the mids MUST have known that Fyfe was doing whatever he wanted...rather than the forwards/mids/backs getting into a little group for a high 5 + a 'keep going fellas' after each goal, maybe those conversations could be a bit more productive...like Sandilands is winning every hitout and he is giving it to Fyfe. Maybe one of us should get on Fyfe? I know, I COULD DO IT!

So frustrated with the players. And stop telling me they are young. SOME of them are young. And some of them are young veterans. What excuses do you have after 50 games? And players like Gowers might be inexperienced in terms of games and dragging down our 'games played' number, but they have been on lists for a couple of years...when do the excuses stop? Fremantle had Cera, Croydon, Banfield and Brayshaw playing last night as genuine first year players. Those blokes seemed to be FINE...inexperience is not an excuse at this point...

I am rambling now so apologies for that.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Well I for one dont see us dropping Gowers against his old team Carlton

I get where mjp is coming from - we need our best players to roll up their sleeves and take on these challenges - Wood did it with Buddy and we were much better for it

[Eastdog]

Hunter coming back will help us through the middle and Crozier a chance to come back in will help us at the back end.

[Sedat]

Gowers is neither the problem nor the solution and I don't know why we all keep talking about him.

The heart of the problem on Saturday night was that Fyfe absolutely KILLED us - particularly in the contest. Was there any danger of our best player standing up and challenging him? Yep - this should have been Bont and I know we all love him but for the love of all that is holy...when the opposition's gun player is taking the game away from us, he needs to be the one who takes it back. It honestly doesn't really matter what guys like Richards and Gowers and Webb and whoever else is on the fringes of the team does - anything they do at this stage is a BONUS!
It's the elephant in the room. Bont has been awful this season when compared against his peers - Martin, Danger, Fyfe. Gowers and Honeychurch are a million miles from the problem with us. Our best player and only genuine match-winner has phoned it in this season to date. Our captain has also been slightly better than putrid for the season thus far.

We have a leadership vacuum - I would say that Suckers, for all his annoying dinky little kicks and missed long bombs at goal, has shown more leadership than anyone else in our team in the first 5 rounds with the possible exception of Macrae.

Bont has been nothing less than brilliant since he started but he should not be above criticism. He's been poor and desperately needs to lift.

[bornadog]

Gowers is neither the problem nor the solution and I don't know why we all keep talking about him.

The heart of the problem on Saturday night was that Fyfe absolutely KILLED us - particularly in the contest. Was there any danger of our best player standing up and challenging him? Yep - this should have been Bont and I know we all love him but for the love of all that is holy...when the opposition's gun player is taking the game away from us, he needs to be the one who takes it back. It honestly doesn't really matter what guys like Richards and Gowers and Webb and whoever else is on the fringes of the team does - anything they do at this stage is a BONUS!

Does anyone else remember Liber slowing down the Kennedy influence in the 2nd half of the GF? I know that was a lifetime ago, but SOMEONE - and it needed to be Bont (or Macrae since he was getting tagged out of it anyway) - had to go to Fyfe?

Honestly, this is u15's stuff. We have Fyfe with 13x clearances and Wilson with 10x inside 50's...was it not obvious they were the keys to the game and we needed to do SOMETHING about them when the half time break came around? If the players on the field hadn't noticed it, then the coaches should have. But surely our half forwards had a vague awareness that Wilson was running riot and he was ON one of them...likewise the mids MUST have known that Fyfe was doing whatever he wanted...rather than the forwards/mids/backs getting into a little group for a high 5 + a 'keep going fellas' after each goal, maybe those conversations could be a bit more productive...like Sandilands is winning every hitout and he is giving it to Fyfe. Maybe one of us should get on Fyfe? I know, I COULD DO IT!

So frustrated with the players. And stop telling me they are young. SOME of them are young. And some of them are young veterans. What excuses do you have after 50 games? And players like Gowers might be inexperienced in terms of games and dragging down our 'games played' number, but they have been on lists for a couple of years...when do the excuses stop? Fremantle had Cera, Croydon, Banfield and Brayshaw playing last night as genuine first year players. Those blokes seemed to be FINE...inexperience is not an excuse at this point...

I am rambling now so apologies for that.

Agree, we should have tagged Fyfe and curtailed his influence, he seemed to be everywhere.

Other than Dickson coming out with an injury, would you make any other changes?

[Go_Dogs]

O/S so haven't caught any of the game, however expect we'll see Hunter and Williams back, most likely for the injured Dicko and Webb.

Naughton for Young makes sense to give Naughty a break.

[mjp]

Agree, we should have tagged Fyfe and curtailed his influence, he seemed to be everywhere.

Other than Dickson coming out with an injury, would you make any other changes?

I don't think it matters. Bevo says he is bewildered by the effort...but the coaches enabled it by not insisting that Wilson be closed down and doing something about Fyfe. Lyon - embroiled in this sexual harassment scandal has watched enough of our miserable season to know that Macrae needed to be stopped - and stopped him.

We are not down on talent and we are not down on skills and experience. We are down on planning, preparation, readiness call it what you will. After all our games against the Giants you would have thought we would have Wilson at least covered...but there he is sitting in space ready to receive a handball and kick deep i50.

Hunter comes in, Dickson goes out...fine. Whatever. But Cripps and Simpson need to be cut out of the game and I cannot see any reason why we would not do this. We are not a top team coming in dictating terms - we are a bottom team fighting for survival and need to treat this game that way.

[Mofra]

Hunter comes in, Dickson goes out...fine. Whatever. But Cripps and Simpson need to be cut out of the game and I cannot see any reason why we would not do this. We are not a top team coming in dictating terms - we are a bottom team fighting for survival and need to treat this game that way.
This nailed it for mine - we've constantly let other teams seize the initiative and seem powerless against sides kicking multiple goals against us.

We're out in the open as saying we're onto plan B, but I'm wondering if our gameplans are too complex to execute and dragging us back to the basics is necessary? Nullifying the best 1-2 opposition players isn't brain surgery but would help us no end.

Especially when you consider the rotating job HC & Dahl did on Zac Merrett vs Essendon and Cordy played well against Daniher. It's not like we haven't seen it work.

[soupman]

We've never shown respect to the opposition, we've always backed ourselves in to hurt them more than they hurt us.

I remember going to games in 2015/16 and you could almost guarantee that inside the first minute their most damaging forward would kick a goal, and by the end of the game their best player would have a career high disposal count.

[Ozza]

Very very poor on the weekend, but we can't just make 4 changes each week. Having said that - hard to have any less than 3 this week I think.

Out: Dickson; Naughton (6 day back up, might be timely to give the boy a spell); Richards.
Ins: Hunter; Young (reward good form + need his height); Williams


I'd prefer to drop Bailey Dale, who was awful v Freo - but losing Dicko, we're already down a goal kicker. Need to Dale to play forward. He seemed to play Hunter's wing role on the weekend where Hunter often sweeps in defence as part of it. Clearly not Dale's 'go'.

[jeemak]

Very very poor on the weekend, but we can't just make 4 changes each week. Having said that - hard to have any less than 3 this week I think.

Out: Dickson; Naughton (6 day back up, might be timely to give the boy a spell); Williams
Ins: Hunter; Young (reward good form + need his height); Richards.

I'd prefer to drop Bailey Dale, who was awful v Freo - but losing Dicko, we're already down a goal kicker. Need to Dale to play forward. He seemed to play Hunter's wing role on the weekend where Hunter often sweeps in defence as part of it. Clearly not Dale's 'go'.

Mate I think you might need to swap around Williams and Richards.

[Eastdog]

Mate I think you might need to swap around Williams and Richards.

Yep I noticed that. Richards played on Saturday and Williams out with that ear infection.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Didn't watch us v Freo thankfully, but would like to see Webb play a block of 5-6 games. Sink or swim time for Lukas.

[bornadog]

Didn't watch us v Freo thankfully, but would like to see Webb play a block of 5-6 games. Sink or swim time for Lukas.

I agree, give him a go and see if he will make it or not. Maybe he just can't get into the tempo of the game and needs a few games in a row to get use to the difference between VFL and AFL.

[soupman]

Ins: Hunter

Outs: Dickson

Gowers stays, he had limited opportunities up forward but still managed to kick a couple and with Dickson and Redpath both out remains possibly our only natural forward.

Honeychurch stays, he's crap but is playing better than the rest.

If Williams is available then maybe cut Webb, but seeing as we are rebuilding we might as well see if he can benefit from multiple games.

Wouldn't mind Trengove and Young in either, but Naughton only goes out if not fit, which is a chance but otherwise should stay. Maybe drop Dale for Trengove.

[Rocket Science]

Assuming he's not earmarked for a spell I suspect Naughton's one of our more appealing options to mind Charlie Curnow. We're just gonna keep leaning on you kid.

As for Cripps, if we don't assign him a marker do we fight fire with fire and deploy the Bont tete-a-tete in the hope a little more latitude helps him regain some touch and influence?

[Ozza]

Mate I think you might need to swap around Williams and Richards.

Correct. Will edit.

[Twodogs]

Even I noticed that one.

[bornadog]

Two that will definitely come in this week are Hunter and Williams, and we know Dickson is injured. Whether Bevo drops anyone else, we don't know. I suspect Webb will be dropped again, but wouldn't be surprised if it was Dale. He has been very poor this season to date.

Edit: Based on the injury update, I suspect Naughton won't play, so Young or Trengove to replace him.

[Rocco Jones]

Would like to see us add some experience.

In- Hunter, Trengove, Crozier, Williams
Out- Dickson, Dale, Webb, Gowers

Gowers survives if Crozier isn't right.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Can see a number of changes this week. Poor performances, a 6 day break for a young team bak from Perth in wet conditions and good performers becoming available. l'll go:

OUT: Dickson, Webb, Dale, Naughton, Richards
IN: Hunter, Williams, Young, Crozier, Trengove
I like your changes but would prefer to retain Dale rather than rush Crozier back.Trengrove and Hunter will add some badly needed experience. Williams was missed against Freo and good form by Young in the VFL deserves recognition.The experience of Roughead if right to go could also be worthy of consideration to allow English who has been carrying a heavy workload to be rested. Leadership and experience is lacking at the moment with more expected from Wood and Bont. Roughead Hunter and Trengrove would help in that regard.

[JohnGentStand]

Outs: Dickson, Lipinski, Honeychurch

Ins: Hunter, Trengove, Williams

With respect to HC, I just cant see the need for a purely defensive midfielder to play against the comps worst midfield group.

[kruder]

Any chance we play Dale inside 50 this week? Have we forgotten his game against PA? With the kicking issues we have had inside 50 I would have thought he and Dickson would have been put on a leash that stoped them running past 70m from goal. He was off the back flank last week to cover Hunter and way too high up the park against Sydney. I really hope we don't drop him we are basically down to 0 natural forwards in the team and continue to play players out of position and then question their form.

[Rocket Science]

Love what Dale offers as it's in such short supply but he's really just surviving on his deeds from the second half of last season so far.

If he can't exert more influence against our next couple of opponents he deserves to go down a level and be tasked with earning his spot back.

[bornadog]

Love what Dale offers as it's in such short supply but he's really just surviving on his deeds from the second half of last season so far.

If he can't exert more influence against our next couple of opponents he deserves to go down a level and be tasked with earning his spot back.

He has kicked four goals in 5 games, none against WC or Freo. I think it's time to be dropped.

[Rocket Science]

He has kicked four goals in 5 games, none against WC or Freo. I think it's time to be dropped.

Hard to disagree but jeez, who do we confidently promote in his place right now?

Let's see if he can find some more of it against crap opposition. If he can't, the decision to send him down makes itself.

[bornadog]

Hard to disagree but jeez, who do we confidently promote in his place right now?

Let's see if he can find some more of it against crap opposition. If he can't, the decision to send him down makes itself.

After I wrote that, I thought, well who can kick goals?

[Twodogs]

I'd like to see Dale given one more week. Play him on a forward flank and make best use of his creativity and capable kicking for goal. I think that's his best spot at the moment as a playmaker in the front half. He played a bit of good footy there last year but we were a bit quick to push him into the midfield and halfback on the back of that form. Put him where he does the most damage.



Any chance we play Dale inside 50 this week? Have we forgotten his game against PA? With the kicking issues we have had inside 50 I would have thought he and Dickson would have been put on a leash that stoped them running past 70m from goal. He was off the back flank last week to cover Hunter and way too high up the park against Sydney. I really hope we don't drop him we are basically down to 0 natural forwards in the team and continue to play players out of position and then question their form.

Yeah I worry about that too. It's a bit like going into a test match with two makeshift openening batsmen who usually bat further up the order and a part time wicketkeeper.. Also it gives tge coaching staff bright ideas like playing Easton Wood in the forward line.

[Ozza]

Our leading goal kickers are Bont and Gowers with 6 each.

[bornadog]

Gowers is neither the problem nor the solution and I don't know why we all keep talking about him.

The heart of the problem on Saturday night was that Fyfe absolutely KILLED us - particularly in the contest. Was there any danger of our best player standing up and challenging him? Yep - this should have been Bont and I know we all love him but for the love of all that is holy...when the opposition's gun player is taking the game away from us, he needs to be the one who takes it back. It honestly doesn't really matter what guys like Richards and Gowers and Webb and whoever else is on the fringes of the team does - anything they do at this stage is a BONUS!

Does anyone else remember Liber slowing down the Kennedy influence in the 2nd half of the GF? I know that was a lifetime ago, but SOMEONE - and it needed to be Bont (or Macrae since he was getting tagged out of it anyway) - had to go to Fyfe?

Honestly, this is u15's stuff. We have Fyfe with 13x clearances and Wilson with 10x inside 50's...was it not obvious they were the keys to the game and we needed to do SOMETHING about them when the half time break came around? If the players on the field hadn't noticed it, then the coaches should have. But surely our half forwards had a vague awareness that Wilson was running riot and he was ON one of them...likewise the mids MUST have known that Fyfe was doing whatever he wanted...rather than the forwards/mids/backs getting into a little group for a high 5 + a 'keep going fellas' after each goal, maybe those conversations could be a bit more productive...like Sandilands is winning every hitout and he is giving it to Fyfe. Maybe one of us should get on Fyfe? I know, I COULD DO IT!

So frustrated with the players. And stop telling me they are young. SOME of them are young. And some of them are young veterans. What excuses do you have after 50 games? And players like Gowers might be inexperienced in terms of games and dragging down our 'games played' number, but they have been on lists for a couple of years...when do the excuses stop? Fremantle had Cera, Croydon, Banfield and Brayshaw playing last night as genuine first year players. Those blokes seemed to be FINE...inexperience is not an excuse at this point...

I am rambling now so apologies for that.

Based on comments from The Bont, the club had plans to stop Fyfe, but they just couldn't do it, he was too good.

Listen to The Bont here

[Twodogs]

Our leading goal kickers are Bont and Gowers with 6 each.


Out of a grand team total of 49 goals. We average less than 10 goals a game. From the 10000 inside 50s we generate every game we can't turn more than ten of them into goals each week.

[bornadog]

Just read - Luke Dahlhaus is battling a sore knee and may need a rest.

Looks like he could miss this week.

[GVGjr]

Just read - Luke Dahlhaus is battling a sore knee and may need a rest.

Looks like he could miss this week.

It might explain the lack of depth with his kicking.

[Twodogs]

Just read - Luke Dahlhaus is battling a sore knee and may need a rest.

Looks like he could miss this week.


It might explain the lack of depth with his kicking.



It makes sense. Dahl ain't the best kick normally but the last couple of weeks its been noticibly worse.

[Rocket Science]

It might explain the lack of depth with his kicking.

In that case it suggests he was drafted with a sore knee.

Edit: Rookied!

[GVGjr]

In that case it suggests he was drafted with a sore knee.

Edit: Rookied!

;) his kicking improved after his first couple of seasons.

[Bulldog4life]

Just read - Luke Dahlhaus is battling a sore knee and may need a rest.

Looks like he could miss this week.

Wonder if Callum Porter will get a game.

[Axe Man]

Wonder if Callum Porter will get a game.

The boot studder might get a game given the amount of injuries we have.

[FrediKanoute]

He has kicked four goals in 5 games, none against WC or Freo. I think it's time to be dropped.

So Dale gets dropped because he isn't playing to the level we believe he can play, but Gowers stays because he is playing at this max level which is a whole lot lower than the level Dale can play at?

One has kicked 6 goals - 2 of which were in junk time when the Freo game was lost after being annonymous for the whole game; the other has kicked 5 goals as a winger/HBF/HFF and spent time on the ball.

I agree that Dale hasn't been great, but he is not alone and is still a young player!

[AndrewP6]

So Dale gets dropped because he isn't playing to the level we believe he can play, but Gowers stays because he is playing at this max level which is a whole lot lower than the level Dale can play at?

One has kicked 6 goals - 2 of which were in junk time when the Freo game was lost after being annonymous for the whole game; the other has kicked 5 goals as a winger/HBF/HFF and spent time on the ball.

I agree that Dale hasn't been great, but he is not alone and is still a young player!

He's just a month younger than Gowers.

[kruder]

He has kicked four goals in 5 games, none against WC or Freo. I think it's time to be dropped.

Where did he play against WCE and Freo?

[Twodogs]

The boot studder might get a game given the amount of injuries we have.

Brad Fuller might have gotten a game if he was still on the list.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Based on comments from The Bont, the club had plans to stop Fyfe, but they just couldn't do it, he was too good.

Listen to The Bont here

The Bont should have played on Fyfe as Dangerfield has done previously on Fyfe. Fyfe was allowed far to much latitude and accountability. Wood was put to the test against Sydney by playing on Franklin their best forward and we should have won the game. In the past two weeks our key ballgetters in Hunter and Macrae have been tagged by the opposition. It was lamentable to see the ease with how we failed to nullify Fyfe. More pressure needs to be put on our leaders, given the inexperience of our side at the moment.

[merantau]

When a team gets beaten by 9 goals there are multiple reasons for the result. When a team plays really well for two weeks against quality opposition and then fails miserably against lesser opposition there are also multiple reasons at play. Dropping some players is only part of the solution. Tactics, skill errors, attitude all play a part in producing such a poor performance. We simply must beat Carlton. In.
Hunter, Roughie, Williams. Out - Dickson, Redpath, Webb
Boyd to play 90% forward.

[bornadog]

So Dale gets dropped because he isn't playing to the level we believe he can play, but Gowers stays because he is playing at this max level which is a whole lot lower than the level Dale can play at?

One has kicked 6 goals - 2 of which were in junk time when the Freo game was lost after being annonymous for the whole game; the other has kicked 5 goals as a winger/HBF/HFF and spent time on the ball.

I agree that Dale hasn't been great, but he is not alone and is still a young player!

I never said Gowers shouldn't be dropped, he is also a candidate for the axe.

[Mofra]

We reached peak conundrum - our players who try their guts out can't kick (HC, Jong, Gowers) and the guys that can kick don't seem to have any intensity in their game (Dale, Webb, and Bont is nowhere near his best).

[LostDoggy]

Bevo just held a press conference in which he confirmed Hunter and Williams as definite ins and also mentioned Crozier as someone under strong consideraton.

[1eyedog]

I know I know I'm old and have no idea WTF is going on internally at the club but how about this. Boyd CHF and rucks in the forward line, Schache to replace Dicko and go to full forward and Jong defensively on Cripps. Is it worth a try and can it be any worse?

[1eyedog]

After I wrote that, I thought, well who can kick goals?

Josh Schache can kick goals apparently.

[Twodogs]

I know I know I'm old and have no idea WTF is going on internally at the club but how about this. Boyd CHF and rucks in the forward line, Schache to replace Dicko and go to full forward and Jong defensively on Cripps. Is it worth a try and can it be any worse?


I like your ideas. Do you have a newsletter that I could suscribe to?

[Axe Man]

I know I know I'm old and have no idea WTF is going on internally at the club but how about this. Boyd CHF and rucks in the forward line, Schache to replace Dicko and go to full forward and Jong defensively on Cripps. Is it worth a try and can it be any worse?

Schache has played 1 game in the VFL so far where he reportedly looked well off the pace before being injured again. Even if he is fit there is no way can he come in at this stage.

[jeemak]

I like your ideas. Do you have a newsletter that I could suscribe to?

From my favourite Simpsons episode:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXesMkAYh44

[Twodogs]

So many great quotes. Show disipline, don't sidetrack thread

[1eyedog]

I like your ideas. Do you have a newsletter that I could suscribe to?

No but I can set up a fund me account online you could donate to?

[Twodogs]

No but I can set up a fund me account online you could donate to?


Can I have half of any moneys that I donate?

[1eyedog]

Can I have half of any moneys that I donate?

Yep I'll donate too and take the other half.

[1eyedog]

INS: Crozier, Hunter, Williams
OUTS: Webb, Honey (stiff), Dicko

[chef]

Good ins.

[Ozza]

We are clearly not worried about Carlton marking the footy (McKay, Curnow, Casboult).

[Twodogs]

Yep I'll donate too and take the other half.

Sounds like a plan.

[Rocket Science]

INS: Crozier, Hunter, Williams
OUTS: Webb, Honey (stiff), Dicko

Honeychurch may be a touch stiff, but the team's better for his absence.

[bornadog]

We are clearly not worried about Carlton marking the footy (McKay, Curnow, Casboult).

Cordy, Naughton and Wood. I don't like Wood forced to play tall.

[Jeanette54]

Honeychurch may be a touch stiff, but the team's better for his absence.

Agree that he is stiff, (on performance so far) cannot possibly agree we are better off without him.

[JohnGentStand]

Love the ins but Casboult is a worry for mine. Great size & hands. We smash the mids and make CFC forwards entries scrappy and it will all be ok.

[Mantis]

Agree that he is stiff, (on performance so far) cannot possibly agree we are better off without him.

On what basis?

His kicking last week was as bad as I’ve seen from a mid sized player... he certainly found space and the ball, but we gained no advantage with his possessions and based on that he shouldn’t be playing.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Cordy, Naughton and Wood. I don't like Wood forced to play tall.

Surprised Trengrove was in to play at CHB. Young also deserved inclusion.
Wood is a lot better player coming off a half back flank rather than being forced to play as a key defender. Still find it hard to understand Crozier’s selection who has shown very little to date.

[The Underdog]

Surprised Trengrove was in to play at CHB. Young also deserved inclusion.
Wood is a lot better player coming off a half back flank rather than being forced to play as a key defender. Still find it hard to understand Crozier’s selection who has shown very little to date.

Crozier got injured in his first game. So yes, technically he hasn’t shown much.

[Twodogs]

Cordy, Naughton and Wood. I don't like Wood forced to play tall.


Especially without cover from Morris. Moz is really good at knowing when to cover Wood. He just seems to know Easton's game really well and knows if he needs help.

[soupman]

Not bothered at a small defence. Two tall defenders is plenty against most sides, sides barely play one tall in a dangerous postion let alone 3. Curnow's more of a Stringer tall anyway, and if we are worried that Casboult and McKay are gonna tear us apart then we are worse than I thought.

[westdog54]

Not bothered at a small defence. Two tall defenders is plenty against most sides, sides barely play one tall in a dangerous postion let alone 3. Curnow's more of a Stringer tall anyway, and if we are worried that Casboult and McKay are gonna tear us apart then we are worse than I thought.

Don't forget, we're the club Majak Daw kicked 6 against.

[Ozza]

Cordy, Naughton and Wood. I don't like Wood forced to play tall.

Yeah I wasn’t necessarily criticising it - and its quite expected that we go small in defence. But interesting this week that the opposition has 2 x 201cm and a 194cm up forward - so they are particularly tall, and we’ve gone with 195, 193 and 187cm players to match them up. The gap is bigger than usual. I thought one of Trengove or Young may have come in this week (both 197cm), and Naughton off the combination of a 6 day break as a young player and Carlton’s extra height - might get a week off. Particularly with the VFL bye, Trengove perhaps needing another run, and Naughton copping a whack last week.

[Twodogs]

Yeah I wasn’t necessarily criticising it - and its quite expected that we go small in defence. But interesting this week that the opposition has 2 x 201cm and a 194cm up forward - so they are particularly tall, and we’ve gone with 195, 193 and 187cm players to match them up. The gap is bigger than usual. I thought one of Trengove or Young may have come in this week (both 197cm), and Naughton off the combination of a 6 day break as a young player and Carlton’s extra height - might get a week off. Particularly with the VFL bye, Trengove perhaps needing another run, and Naughton copping a whack last week.

Add to all that a big road trip as well. I assumed one of the reasons they played both Trengove and Young in the VFL last week was to spare them the trip to Perth and bingo ba go they'd be fresh to come in and cover Carlton's talls. We are really going to have to be at our combatitive best in the middle of the ground and fight to lock the ball in the forward line so Carlton get as few fast balls into their forward line as possible.

They will fancy their chances against us and rightly so if we serve up the same dross we did last week. I would have liked to seen us have bought in either Trengove or Young. Crozier hasn't played for nearly a month and a half he should have come back through the VFL.

[soupman]

Beveridge has always been one to pick good users ahead of talls. Neither Trengove nor Young are great users, especially Jackson, while Crozier is quite good aerially and is a nice kick.

Again they are clearly going to back in our defence into ensuring that we use our talls wisely to cover Carltons three mediocre talls, and this way we get an extra runner who can damage going the other way.

[Twodogs]

Beveridge has always been one to pick good users ahead of talls. Neither Trengove nor Young are great users, especially Jackson, while Crozier is quite good aerially and is a nice kick.

Again they are clearly going to back in our defence into ensuring that we use our talls wisely to cover Carltons three mediocre talls, and this way we get an extra runner who can damage going the other way.

Yeah we obviously rate Crozier and Richards and Williams and Suckling's ability to run the ball out of defence and hurt Carlton going the other way while Casboult and co lumber along in their wake. Just as long as Crozier doesn't add a soft tissue injury because he hasn't played for so long. Still he would have done a fair bit of running by now during his recovery sessions.

[The Adelaide Connection]

Add to all that a big road trip as well. I assumed one of the reasons they played both Trengove and Young in the VFL last week was to spare them the trip to Perth and bingo ba go they'd be fresh to come in and cover Carlton's talls. We are really going to have to be at our combatitive best in the middle of the ground and fight to lock the ball in the forward line so Carlton get as few fast balls into their forward line as possible.

They will fancy their chances against us and rightly so if we serve up the same dross we did last week. I would have liked to seen us have bought in either Trengove or Young. Crozier hasn't played for nearly a month and a half he should have come back through the VFL.

I am particularly surprised that Young is not in. He tore it up in his debut against Carlton last year and I thought we resisted the urge to play him last week to maybe give Naughton a rest and bring him in this week.

[LostDoggy]

Young and Trengove are both listed as emergencies. Late change?

[LostDoggy]

I suppose we also just have to back ourselves in to minimise supply. In their last 3 games against us, Carlton have kicked 53,49 and 62. They also haven't scored 100 points in a game for 38 games. Even we're not going that bad.

[Greystache]

Honeychurch may be a touch stiff, but the team's better for his absence.

Exactly. He's been finding more of the ball this season but that's actually not a good thing for the team. His best contribution would be to play on a dangerous rebounding defender and neither of them touch the ball more than a few times. That isn't the role he's been playing and we're not better for it.

[Mofra]

Not bothered at a small defence. Two tall defenders is plenty against most sides, sides barely play one tall in a dangerous postion let alone 3. Curnow's more of a Stringer tall anyway, and if we are worried that Casboult and McKay are gonna tear us apart then we are worse than I thought.
My Carlton friends are adamant they now have a decent forwardline - they are just putrid everywhere else and can't get it to them.

We need to smash them in the middle and a Phillips/Casboult ruck combo is probably the worst ruck division named this round.

[Eastdog]

Bevo in his presser yesterday said at the end that is Gowers is showing encouraging signs.

[Mofra]

Bevo in his presser yesterday said at the end that is Gowers is showing encouraging signs.
He works hard to present, I'll give him that. It's something nobody in the Essendon forwardline was doing two days ago.

[FrediKanoute]

He works hard to present, I'll give him that. It's something nobody in the Essendon forwardline was doing two days ago.

There is something about Gowers that suggests he could "explode" as a footballer. i like his physique, he has strong hands, good acceleration. I just can't work out though what it is that is holding him back. That said I think he is lucky to hold his spot. He was putrid last week

[bornadog]

There is something about Gowers that suggests he could "explode" as a footballer. i like his physique, he has strong hands, good acceleration. I just can't work out though what it is that is holding him back. That said I think he is lucky to hold his spot. He was putrid last week

Pretty sure what is holding him back is he has played 5 games in total AFL games:)

[Mofra]

There is something about Gowers that suggests he could "explode" as a footballer. i like his physique, he has strong hands, good acceleration. I just can't work out though what it is that is holding him back. That said I think he is lucky to hold his spot. He was putrid last week
Obviously kicking is an issue but he's leading our goal kicking tally as player still establishing himself in the side. He's certainly earning his spot right now and we're not exactly flush for genuine forwards.
He's basically Dickson minus the kicking, perhaps a touch better overhead.

[1eyedog]

Obviously kicking is an issue but he's leading our goal kicking tally as player still establishing himself in the side. He's certainly earning his spot right now and we're not exactly flush for genuine forwards.
He's basically Dickson minus the kicking, perhaps a touch better overhead.

Much better overhead. Personally, I'd prefer Crameri or if we like his sort we should of went hard at Menzel. There is one thing Gowers lacks and that's ability, or X Factor. Menzel has it, Crameri had it. Gowers is a plodder who couldn't even get a game at Carlton. If he has a big game I'll eat my toilet paper post wipe.

[jeemak]

Much better overhead. Personally, I'd prefer Crameri or if we like his sort we should of went hard at Menzel. There is one thing Gower lacks and that's ability, or X Factor. Menzel has it, Crameri had it. Gowers is a plodder who couldn't even get a game at Carlton. If he has a big game I'll eat my toilet paper post wipe.

Jesus dude.

[bornadog]

Much better overhead. Personally, I'd prefer Crameri or if we like his sort we should of went hard at Menzel. There is one thing Gower lacks and that's ability, or X Factor. Menzel has it, Crameri had it. Gowers is a plodder who couldn't even get a game at Carlton. If he has a big game I'll eat my toilet paper post wipe.

Yeah 18 year old kid on the Rookie list, couldn't get a game, so useless :rolleyes:

[chef]

Posters said the same stuff about Picken, Wood, Dickson etc

Give him a chance.

[Mofra]

Posters said the same stuff about Picken, Wood, Dickson etc

Give him a chance.
IIRC Picken was a fan favourite from his first game.

[chef]

IIRC Picken was a fan favourite from his first game.

I think you are thinking of Morris.

Under Macca plenty on here wanted Picken out of the side. Was only a couple of seasons back Hunter was copping the same thing.

[GVGjr]

Posters said the same stuff about Picken, Wood, Dickson etc

Give him a chance.

Dickson (in particular) and Campbell were lined by plenty I think because B-Mac endorsed them.
We only got Picken because Williamstown coughed up some money

[Sedat]

Gowers is a plodder who couldn't even get a game at Carlton.
His two seasons there were almost completely wiped out with injury. My Carlton mates were surprised he wasn't retained on the list for at least another season.

So he's had one injury free season (at Footscray) prior to being drafted by us. Why is there an assumption that he can't continue the rate of improvemrnt he's shown in the last 18 months?

[Ozza]

IIRC Picken was a fan favourite from his first game.

Picken was not wanted by most. I know that because I was completely biased and wanted to draft him because I knew him a bit at the time, and was shouted down!!!

[Ozza]

Much better overhead. Personally, I'd prefer Crameri or if we like his sort we should of went hard at Menzel. There is one thing Gowers lacks and that's ability, or X Factor. Menzel has it, Crameri had it. Gowers is a plodder who couldn't even get a game at Carlton. If he has a big game I'll eat my toilet paper post wipe.

At this stage he is leading our goal kicking, clear by 2. The kid is no superstar, but he is giving us an option while he learns the game at AFL level. Should have had 3 tonight, but for a mare of a decision to play on after Bont nearly hit the roof kicking to him.

[LostDoggy]

At this stage he is leading our goal kicking, clear by 2. The kid is no superstar, but he is giving us an option while he learns the game at AFL level. Should have had 3 tonight, but for a mare of a decision to play on after Bont nearly hit the roof kicking to him.

Equally importantly had 3 goal assists including 2 long inside 50 passes that resulted in easy goals. Direct contribution to 5 goals is a very good return.

[Greystache]

Dickson (in particular) and Campbell were lined by plenty I think because B-Mac endorsed them.
We only got Picken because Williamstown coughed up some money

Yep BMac liked them both so they had to go. A poster was even calling for Dickson to be delisted 2 weeks after kicking 6 against Adelaide, and finishing the season with something like 18 goals in the last 6 games.

I was frustrated by us picking up Gowers because in a team who was already terrible at goal kicking he was another bad one, but he's shown an ability to get shots close enough <15m to give him half a chance. He's playing a role for the time being, and we'll have to put up with incidents like when he played on and got caught after marking 35m out directly in front, because the reality is he may as well kick the ball along the ground to the boundary and set up for a throw in, he's got to try something to give him half a chance. No worse than Dahlhaus, Suckling, or Honeychurch in that regard,

[AndrewP6]

Yep BMac liked them both so they had to go. A poster was even calling for Dickson to be delisted 2 weeks after kicking 6 against Adelaide, and finishing the season with something like 18 goals in the last 6 games.

I was frustrated by us picking up Gowers because in a team who was already terrible at goal kicking he was another bad one, but he's shown an ability to get shots close enough <15m to give him half a chance. He's playing a role for the time being, and we'll have to put up with incidents like when he played on and got caught after marking 35m out directly in front, because the reality is he may as well kick the ball along the ground to the boundary and set up for a throw in, he's got to try something to give him half a chance. No worse than Dahlhaus, Suckling, or Honeychurch in that regard,

Better than Dahl or Suckling in that he's only getting started at 21.

[Greystache]

Better than Dahl or Suckling in that he's only getting started at 21.

Logically yes, but history has shown the longer they're on our list the worse their goal kicking gets. Bont, Boyd, and Campbell were all very good kicks for goal when drafted, now they'd be lucky to hit water from a boat. I'm scared to think what we could do to Gowers after a few years!!

[bornadog]

Logically yes, but history has shown the longer they're on our list the worse their goal kicking gets. Bont, Boyd, and Campbell were all very good kicks for goal when drafted, now they'd be lucky to hit water from a boat. I'm scared to think what we could do to Gowers after a few years!!

I am interested to know, logically, What do you think we do? Teach them how not to kick goals?

[Greystache]

I am interested to know, logically, What do you think we do? Teach them how not to kick goals?

We don't teach them anything at all. We also don't practice in any meaningful way, and we don't correct technical issues when they start to develop. Throw in our Laissez-faire attitude to it's importance and you have the cluster*!*!*!*! that is most players getting worse rather than better.

[Twodogs]

We don't teach them anything at all. We also don't practice in any meaningful way, and we don't correct technical issues when they start to develop. Throw in our Laissez-faire attitude to it's importance and you have the cluster*!*!*!*! that is most players getting worse rather than better.


+1. Our players have almost the worst skill level in the afl and the level goes down every year.

BAD I acknowledge that it's counter intuitive to think that somebody employed as a professional footballer could drop in skill level at the basics of the game but they have. I genuinely don't think they pay enough heed to the basics of the game.

[bornadog]

+1. Our players have almost the worst skill level in the afl and the level goes down every year.

BAD I acknowledge that it's counter intuitive to think that somebody employed as a professional footballer could drop in skill level at the basics of the game but they have. I genuinely don't think they pay enough heed to the basics of the game.

Surely as you get more experience, you improve your skills.

One of the biggest issues in my opinion is the use of Sports Scientists who seem to dictate training, and match day. I really believe we are over using these blokes to the detriment of the game. Even at training they don't allow extra time to practise goal kicking. Training is made up too much of strategy and game plans rather than teaching basic skills.

[Twodogs]

Surely as you get more experience, you improve your skills.

One of the biggest issues in my opinion is the use of Sports Scientists who seem to dictate training, and match day. I really believe we are over using these blokes to the detriment of the game. Even at training they don't allow extra time to practise goal kicking. Training is made up too much of strategy and game plans rather than teaching basic skills.


It depends on whether they are doing it properly. If they are practicing mistakes then they are just getting better at mistakes.

I'd like to see what sort of work they put into the basic skills of the game, kicking and marking and jumping as opposed to the other areas they work on through the week.

[The bulldog tragician]

However St Kilda have a designated goal kicking coach and are dreadful. It is a trend across the competition interestingly enough. Why, who knows...
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-goalkicking-continues-to-be-under-scrutiny-as-league-accuracy-falls-to-its-worst-since-1990/news-story/b01d958a5952a86e714e7ef0a41f75d5

[bornadog]

However St Kilda have a designated goal kicking coach and are dreadful. It is a trend across the competition interestingly enough. Why, who knows...
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-goalkicking-continues-to-be-under-scrutiny-as-league-accuracy-falls-to-its-worst-since-1990/news-story/b01d958a5952a86e714e7ef0a41f75d5

As I mentioned in the thread on goal kicking, I would love to see the breakup of set shots within 50 metres versus the total. Are footballers not as accurate with set shots compared to the past? The 52% accuracy maybe due to the forward pressure on players which didn't exist in the 1990s. It also accounts for the defensive mindset which doesn't allow many goals to be kicked.

[Hotdog60]

Could it be that the likes of Locket, Dunstall and Lloyd affect the percentage due to them being high scoring forwards.
How many key stay at home forwards kick double figures in a game now days.

[Ozza]

Just to clarify a bit around the facts;

The players of post 1990 have been more accurate than players pre-1990. And the majority of the ‘highest accuracy’ seasons have been post 2000 - as they should be.

The issue is in part that this year it is tracking as the worst during the AFL era (post 1990). The other part is that the skill should have improved over time more significantly than it has. ‘

[westdog54]

It depends on whether they are doing it properly. If they are practicing mistakes then they are just getting better at mistakes.

I'd like to see what sort of work they put into the basic skills of the game, kicking and marking and jumping as opposed to the other areas they work on through the week.

I have a vague recollection of Ron Barassi saying something along the lines of "Practice makes perfect is Bullshit. Perfect practice makes perfect"

[Greystache]

Just to clarify a bit around the facts;

The players of post 1990 have been more accurate than players pre-1990. And the majority of the ‘highest accuracy’ seasons have been post 2000 - as they should be.

The issue is in part that this year it is tracking as the worst during the AFL era (post 1990). The other part is that the skill should have improved over time more significantly than it has. ‘

When you consider the changed ground conditions post-1990 in that they're not bogs caused by cricket pitches and have advanced drainage, and that they use a dozen balls in a game now and not one water logged ball that weighs 20kg, those factors alone should've improved goal kicking accuracy substantially.

[mjp]

Surely as you get more experience, you improve your skills.

One of the biggest issues in my opinion is the use of Sports Scientists who seem to dictate training, and match day. I really believe we are over using these blokes to the detriment of the game. Even at training they don't allow extra time to practise goal kicking. Training is made up too much of strategy and game plans rather than teaching basic skills.

If you talk to any of the coaches they will lament the lack of time to do 'REAL' skill development work. And I know the players are 'full-time' but they aren't 'full-time' the way you or I would understand it. Most days are around 5-6 hours in duration (including lunch) and time will be spent in various S+C activities (massage, injury treatment, boxing, weights sessions, pilates etc) as well as with their dev coach and line coach...they don't actually TRAIN very much.

Main session will only be 60 mins or so of something close to nothing. Strategy is generally a video/white board session...

Blaming the sport scientists is fine I guess...but they are basing their feedback on gameday loads. Oftentimes, struggling teams have higher loads (chasing arse is hard work!) so the time on legs during the week will be further reduced...the entire week is built around the players being 'ready' on game day and that primarily means rest and recovery and mental preparation for the challenge ahead, not skills work.

Listening to Brad Scott say Ben Brown has 'hundreds' of shots on goal every week on 360 a week or so back was interesting...if he is really doing that then he would be the only player in the competition who is.

[Axe Man]

Ben Brown has kicked 23.5 from 30 shots at goal this year so maybe practice really does work? Crazy I know.

[Mofra]

If you talk to any of the coaches they will lament the lack of time to do 'REAL' skill development work. And I know the players are 'full-time' but they aren't 'full-time' the way you or I would understand it. Most days are around 5-6 hours in duration (including lunch) and time will be spent in various S+C activities (massage, injury treatment, boxing, weights sessions, pilates etc) as well as with their dev coach and line coach...they don't actually TRAIN very much.

Main session will only be 60 mins or so of something close to nothing. Strategy is generally a video/white board session...

Blaming the sport scientists is fine I guess...but they are basing their feedback on gameday loads. Oftentimes, struggling teams have higher loads (chasing arse is hard work!) so the time on legs during the week will be further reduced...the entire week is built around the players being 'ready' on game day and that primarily means rest and recovery and mental preparation for the challenge ahead, not skills work.

Listening to Brad Scott say Ben Brown has 'hundreds' of shots on goal every week on 360 a week or so back was interesting...if he is really doing that then he would be the only player in the competition who is.
Listening to the radio this morning, Paul Roos completely disagrees that players are "full time" as he often had little time with the actual players and will insist that they are still part-time for the hours they do, and the amount of time with ball in hand during pre-season has actually dropped substantially in recent years.

North do a lot of things differently - a few years ago they substantially reduced (virtually ditched) lower weight sessions and focused on on-ground strength and have no limit on kicking drills/set shots.
I've seen them train quite a bit and they do seem to be the most unique team in the competition in terms of approach. Their core workouts in particular seem to be quite different (and totally grueling, if short in duration).

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Listening to the radio this morning, Paul Roos completely disagrees that players are "full time" as he often had little time with the actual players and will insist that they are still part-time for the hours they do, and the amount of time with ball in hand during pre-season has actually dropped substantially in recent years.

North do a lot of things differently - a few years ago they substantially reduced (virtually ditched) lower weight sessions and focused on on-ground strength and have no limit on kicking drills/set shots.
I've seen them train quite a bit and they do seem to be the most unique team in the competition in terms of approach. Their core workouts in particular seem to be quite different (and totally grueling, if short in duration).

Might be working for them as they have been getting a lot out of their sub-par list this year and last year. What's different about their core workouts?

[Daughter of the West]

I have a vague recollection of Ron Barassi saying something along the lines of "Practice makes perfect is Bullshit. Perfect practice makes perfect"

I had a tennis coach that said, "Practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent." Similar vein.

[ratsmac]

We must listen to the sports scientists on not doing to many kicking drills otherwise we'll end up with a lot of injured players.....oh wait

[Twodogs]

We must listen to the sports scientists on not doing to many kicking drills otherwise we'll end up with a lot of injured players.....oh wait


Imagine what the carnage would have been like had we not listened to them.