Post-flag plummet was always possible

[GVGjr]

THE Western Bulldogs (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/western-bulldogs/western-bulldogs-footy-boss-chris-grant-admits-clubs-postflag-plummet-was-always-possible/news-story/939e7567e856f63dffd3c937e6ef64f7) have admitted they feared a post-premiership plummet.

Bulldogs football director Chris Grant revealed club bosses identified the potential to slide - because of their young list demographic - in a review conducted in the weeks after the historic 2016 Grand Final triumph.

“We were mindful of our vulnerability,” Grant told the Herald Sun.

“We are under no illusion and we weren’t even at the end of 2016 - it was amazing, incredible that we won the premiership, for a lot of different reasons - but we had one month of unbelievable footy.

“All of the moons aligned for four weeks, but when we stripped it back and reviewed at the end of the year … we thought, ‘We’ve actually got some challenges in front of us’.

“We knew we were going to lose some experience - Matty Boyd and Bob Murphy - and so our development and improvement was not simply going to be in a straight line, particularly if we lost key, experienced players to injury.”

The 14th-placed Bulldogs meet red-hot Melbourne at Etihad Stadium and are in danger of missing the September action for the second straight year.

Grant said while finals remained an aspiration, the blooding of younger players would start paying dividends next year.

“We’ve actually got to start to play them … because by 2019 we’re going to be more advanced,” he said.

The Bulldogs’ average age on Grand Final day was 24.41 years, the third youngest premiership side since 1979.

“We weren’t under any illusion that just because we’ve won a premiership it’s now hunky dory and off we go and we should be performing like a premiership team for 2017,” Grant said.

“We were already very aware that it was going to be a pretty tough year.

“A few of them (the younger players) were going to have some challenges with their game and their one-wood (manic pressure and slick handball movement), the competition was starting to become aware of.

“We don’t have a Dangerfield-Ablett-Selwood midfield, so we know we have to rely on everybody playing pretty close to their best to perform pretty well.

“That was always going to be a problem when you’ve got so many players under 50 games.

“It’s just not going to happen. So when we looked at the demographic of our list, we knew that 2017 and maybe in 2018, we were going to have some challenges based on if we don’t play players and start to actually provide an opportunity at that senior level sooner rather than later, we are going to be in this for too long.

“But it’s not just that we are young. We know that from a contested ball situation, if we don’t get that right we won’t win. We’re not shying away from those stats.”

Asked if the club was equipped to handle its first flag in 62 years, Grant said: “Where we weren’t as equipped as we would have liked was in the experience within in our team. When you lose Boyd and then Murphy and you’ve got to blood a new leadership group, there’s just a knock-on affect.

“When you look at the teams that have been able to back it up, and they may not win it the following year but they have had another solid year … they were able to rely on the maturity of their list to have another crack at it.

“It’s really hard when you go from winning a premiership, but know you are exposed by an incredibly young team.”

[GVGjr]

I've got to read this a couple of more times but the logic doesn't stand up to me.

[Twodogs]

I've got to read this a couple of more times but the logic doesn't stand up to me.


I gave up halfway through. I only speak English. God knows what that's written in.

[Sedat]

I've got to read this a couple of more times but the logic doesn't stand up to me.
I can explain it in 3 words - we are tanking

Fully expecting Bont to be cotton-wooled for the rest of the season if we don't win today.

[G-Mo77]

This was just what I wanted to read this morning before I reluctantly drive 90 minutes to go to the circus.

Aren't we suppose to be a professional football club? We're a young side, we won a flag lets just rebuild and win another in another 60 years.

[GVGjr]

I can explain it in 3 words - we are tanking

Fully expecting Bont to be cotton-wooled for the rest of the season if we don't win today.

There are clearly some inconsistencies with this article and our strong public position that there was no hangover in 2017.

Based on someone I know who I regard as a bit of a list management expert we won it 12 months earlier than our 'profile' suggested we should have. We are just playing poorly and we aren't as hungry as we should be.

They keep saying we lost Murphy and Boyd as one of the reasons for the decline. Murphy didn't play in the grand final and played just 3 games that year and Boyd only played 10 average games in 2017. It's not like they were both the back bone of the 2016/17 seasons.
We also knew they were retiring and groomed the likes of Biggs to replace them and Williams has stepped up this year.

Also if they knew we were in for a hit why weren't we vastly more active at the trade table at the end of 2016 when we would have been regarded as a great destination club for opposition players? We went as hard as we could at Hurley but didn't have a plan B other than taking a bit of a gamble with Cloke.
The fact is we were clearly distracted by our success of 2016 and missed a great chance to consolidate or build again.

So can someone explain to me why we drafted just 3 players into the side at the end of last season when we knew a plummet was likely?

And of course the article throws out the old line of we will be more advanced in 2019.

I'm going to read it again, I'm missing something here.

[kruder]

Its frustrating particularly with the dialogue coming out of the club over the last 2 years I must say I don't believe any of it. We have to look the the future now and what I hang my hat on its that we have our next premiership tilt backline in place. Cordy, Naughton, Adams, Williams, JJ and Richards will be a lethal combination in years to come. Sprinkle that with Bont, Macrae Mclean in the mids and Boyd and English in the rucks its a solid start indeed. We need to find mids and a few specialist forwards obviously, hopefully we can nail a few in this draft.

We also need a change in the coaching group, you have to back Bevo at this stage but its needs a freshen up to say the least.

[GVGjr]

Its frustrating particularly with the dialogue coming out of the club over the last 2 years I must say I don't believe any of it. We have to look the the future now and what I hang my hat on its that we have our next premiership tilt backline in place. Cordy, Naughton, Adams, Williams, JJ and Richards will be a lethal combination in years to come. Sprinkle that with Bont, Macrae Mclean in the mids and Boyd and English in the rucks its a solid start indeed. We need to find mids and a few specialist forwards obviously, hopefully we can nail a few in this draft.

We also need a change in the coaching group, you have to back Bevo at this stage but its needs a freshen up to say the least.

I have to agree, perhaps the distraction with Stringer and then losing Tom Boyd and Cloke to mental health challenges explains 2017 just a small bit but not how we are performing so far this year and why we have been somewhat inactive at the draft and trade table.

There are some great building blocks for the future but we have to get a lot of things sorted out by the end of the season.

[Sedat]

I love Granty but that article is top shelf jibberish, and so reactive. It is an obvious attempt to temper expectations in light of us being completely non-conpetitive against the better teams this year. And it is a ham-fisted revision of history by trying to explain that the last 18 months were all part of the plan.

We couldn't put a foot wrong in late 2016 across the entire club - I always go back to the example of taping Jong's good shoulder in the VFL GF as an organisation nailing every last detail. We have been getting far too much wrong since.

[bornadog]

Explains it down to a tee.

You can say we shouldn't have excuses, but we have lost the second most injury days to any other club (Adelaide just ahead of us) and most weeks we have played with a team on the park with less than 60 games average. No team, and I mean no team can win games playing with inexperienced players like that.

Yes there have been other issues, yes maybe we should have gone harder with delistings, but how low do you go.

[Sedat]

Explains it down to a tee.

You can say we shouldn't have excuses, but we have lost the second most injury days to any other club (Adelaide just ahead of us) and most weeks we have played with a team on the park with less than 60 games average. No team, and I mean no team can win games playing with inexperienced players like that.

Yes there have been other issues, yes maybe we should have gone harder with delistings, but how low do you go.
Whether or not it explains the current situation is irrelevant. It is completely against the club message of the last 18 months.

If this message was conveyed in the 2016 off-season there would be no problem whatsoever. The reactive nature of this position is what pisses me off. Granty has basically confirmed that the club has been lying to its members and the wider footy community for the last 18 months.

[bornadog]

Whether or not it explains the current situation is irrelevant. It is completely against the club message of the last 18 months.

If this message was conveyed in the 2016 off-season there would be no problem whatsoever. The reactive nature of this position is what pisses me off. Granty has basically confirmed that the club has been lying to its members and the wider footy community for the last 18 months.

Clubs never come out and say we will lose games for two years and have a tilt in 2019.

I am being realistic with what has happened this year.

I am sure the results so far would have been different if Libba, Morris, Picken, Adams, Clay, Redpath and Trengove (all games) were all available for the season to date.

Yes we have played at times up to 6 players with less than 10 games and most of those players have shown ability and earned their spot, but you can't expect them to be world beaters.

[GVGjr]

Clubs never come out and say we will lose games for two years and have a tilt in 2019.

I am being realistic with what has happened this year.

I am sure the results so far would have been different if Libba, Morris, Picken, Adams, Clay, Redpath and Trengove (all games) were all available for the season to date.

Yes we have played at times up to 6 players with less than 10 games and most of those players have shown ability and earned their spot, but you can't expect them to be world beaters.

Are you being realistic or blindlly supporting whatever they say?

So if the club didn't have the right profile after 2016 and knew a slump was likely how does that explain the somewhat minimal changes to the list in the last 2 seasons ?

I believe we rated our list but are now trying to at least explain why we haven't quite measured up to expectations.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Agree wholeheartedly with you GVG.

Several of us were concerned before 2017 even started with our lack of activity at the trade table and the shuffling of coaches, along with the messages of celebrating well into 2017.

This article convinces me we need a clean out of management starting with Grant.

[GVGjr]

Agree wholeheartedly with you GVG.

Several of us were concerned before 2017 even started with our lack of activity at the trade table and the shuffling of coaches, along with the messages of celebrating well into 2017.

This article convinces me we need a clean out of management starting with Grant.

Is it possible we shuffled more coaches around than players at the end of 2016? ☺

[jeemak]

So the club should have tempered expectations immediately after winning a flag. Makes sense, wouldn’t have been mauled by all and sundry at all!

[anfo27]

Clubs never come out and say we will lose games for two years and have a tilt in 2019.

I am being realistic with what has happened this year.

I am sure the results so far would have been different if Libba, Morris, Picken, Adams, Clay, Redpath and Trengove (all games) were all available for the season to date.

Yes we have played at times up to 6 players with less than 10 games and most of those players have shown ability and earned their spot, but you can't expect them to be world beaters.

Yeah but our youngsters haven't been the problem. Its our experienced players who are a shadow of their former selves.

[Happy Days]

This is so deeply frustrating. We always talk about how piss poor the communication is from the club and this is a prime example of why; this is nothing more than an attempt at spin doctoring to ease the burden on a group of players and coaches that have taken the better part of 24 months off.

I guess no one can be accountable if we all saw it happening because we’re so so clever.

[Sedat]

Barrett and Wilson will rightly have a field day with us for the next few weeks. I just heard Zaine Cordy being grilled on 3AW and accidentally contradicting the precise message from this article.

This is amateur hour stuff.

[Twodogs]

Barrett and Wilson will rightly have a field day with us for the next few weeks. I just heard Zaine Cordy being grilled on 3AW and accidentally contradicting the precise message from this article.

This is amateur hour stuff.


Don't blame Zaine. He's concussed!

[soupman]

God this is pathetic. I understand coming out and trying to lower the pressure but this just makes us look like idiots.

[Grantysghost]

I think he's just stated the obvious, nothing to get emotional about .

[GVGjr]

I think he's just stated the obvious, nothing to get emotional about .
Based on facts or spin? It doesn't ring true to me.

[Grantysghost]

Every club spins the truth, I don't expect complete honesty. How could you plan for that flag happening, and in the aftermath I can understand them taking their eye off the ball a tad. We probably all did to a degree, I think I'm still in shock. I understand the sentiment but calls to sack Grant my god seriously .

[bornadog]

Every club spins the truth, I don't expect complete honesty. How could you plan for that flag happening, and in the aftermath I can understand them taking their eye off the ball a tad. We probably all did to a degree, I think I'm still in shock. I understand the sentiment but calls to sack Grant my god seriously .

Agree with you, pathetic really to call for sacking the lot.

[anfo27]

This is so deeply frustrating. We always talk about how piss poor the communication is from the club and this is a prime example of why; this is nothing more than an attempt at spin doctoring to ease the burden on a group of players and coaches that have taken the better part of 24 months off.

I guess no one can be accountable if we all saw it happening because we’re so so clever.

Agree 100%. If it was true we would have spun this rubbish in the pre-season like Carlton did to keep the pressure off Bolton.

Since the flag its been comedy central. We have barely done a thing right & we are a joke. Thats the hardest part for me, knowing everyone thinks we are a laughing stock. We fought so hard to beat that tag & thought we did forever, only to be there 6 months after winning a flag. I guess the only silver lining is the saying 'its never as bad as it seems'. Please let that be true!

[bornadog]

Agree 100%. If it was true we would have spun this rubbish in the pre-season like Carlton did to keep the pressure off Bolton.

Since the flag its been comedy central. We have barely done a thing right & we are a joke. Thats the hardest part for me, knowing everyone thinks we are a laughing stock. We fought so hard to beat that tag & thought we did forever, only to be there 6 months after winning a flag. I guess the only silver lining is the saying 'its never as bad as it seems'. Please let that be true!

Examples please.

We have paid off our debts and created a strong viable club for the future through the hard work of Peter Gordon and the acquisition of primary land from the government.

I would love to hear from you why we are a joke?

[Twodogs]

Examples please.

We have paid off our debts and created a strong viable club for the future through the hard work of Peter Gordon and the acquisition of primary land from the government.

I would love to hear from you why we are a joke?

The Redpath suspension. That got a bit silly. The original suspension was a joke but somehow we ended up looking silly.

[Rocket Science]

That infantile spat between Gordo and Alberti ...

[Rocket Science]

The coach devoting some of his time to calling in a gutter-dwelling scribe ... because priorities.

[bulldogtragic]

Rotating premiership assistant coaches out of their roles, into new rules for their development and not necessarily the players development.

[chef]

The Stringer fiasco.

[bulldogtragic]

Our PR has been really poor. Our messaging from basic things, to senior positions, to an extent articulating how and why we were moving on Stringer lacked precision.

[bulldogtragic]

Managing the alleged tension between JMac & Dal. JMac quit, and despite Dal having this year under contract he's now at Sydney.

This could be filed under retain senior officials too.

[bulldogtragic]

Injuries. I'm not sold our team has done or is doing enough. Especially ACL injuries.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Amazed at some who still buy the rubbish the club is selling.

[bulldogtragic]

List management too. We've not cut hard enough, retained sub par players, signed back up players (nearly never selected) and now we've got a huge cut or too ahead (which makes careful management harder).

[Rocket Science]

Telling the bannerman to piss off ... after he'd rejuvenated a tired medium to the club's benefit.

File under 'Headscratchers'.

[bulldogtragic]

Not spiritedly enough defending the premiership on field.
In 33 games since the premiership, losing 18 and now being completely impotent to even kick goals. 2 goals vs Adealide. 7 goals in 6 quarters against Collingwood (0) and Melbourne (7). 9 goals in 10 quarters over 3 weeks is embarrassing.

[bornadog]

Nothing above tells me the club is a joke. Most of what has been posted is really minor stuff, and if we were winning no one would bat an eyelid.

No one is happy with the onfield performance, but off field we are a strong club.

[G-Mo77]

Nothing above tells me the club is a joke. Most of what has been posted is really minor stuff, and if we were winning no one would bat an eyelid.

No one is happy with the onfield performance, but off field we are a strong club.

Which is moot if we continue to go further into a downward spiral and we will. On and off the field we are a joke. The AFL world laughs at us and rightly so.

[Happy Days]

Nothing above tells me the club is a joke. Most of what has been posted is really minor stuff, and if we were winning no one would bat an eyelid.

No one is happy with the onfield performance, but off field we are a strong club.

I wouldn't say joke - it's just really disappointing to be treated with such condescension as a supporter in light of the continual garbage being dished up on the field.

[Remi Moses]

Which is moot if we continue to go further into a downward spiral and we will. On and off the field we are a joke. The AFL world laughs at us and rightly so.

Not sure off the field the club is a joke
Would have thought to turn the clubs finances and sponsors like they have is a joke
On field we’ve been embarrassing two years after a flag . The club needs to stick to one message to the fan base .

[1eyedog]

Nothing above tells me the club is a joke. Most of what has been posted is really minor stuff, and if we were winning no one would bat an eyelid.

No one is happy with the onfield performance, but off field we are a strong club.

I think about the off field stuff like once or twice a month. I think about the on field stuff like a month's worth of thoughts in one day.

I'm not worried about Turtles comments. No one had a crystal ball at the start of 17. Why would you sell caution to the members off the back of a flag when you can sell optimism, more memberships and merchandising.

[Grantysghost]

I've been a member since 81 and I've never been happier with where the club sits. Since 2014, 2 X VFL, 1 X AFL, 1 X AFLw premierships, no debt, profitable, record membership, great alliance with Ballarat, Mercedes, Mission and others, our vice president was integral in a deal to get Disney involved in docklands ( which will hopefully benefit us), a brilliant young CEO in Ameet who is very impressive; not to mention the amazing work done in the sons of the west and multicultural programs driven by the club. To suggest we are a joke or thought of as such doesn't have a factual basis and is more suitably written in rubbish newspapers and particular forums (not the fine folk of woof) where contemptuous armchair warriors rail against the club. Im not suggesting we are perfect, The failed Edgewater project, the sad departure of Jake and that abomination of a jumper yesterday is proof of that, however I think from a big picture point of view we are in the strongest position Ive seen in my days supporting the club which makes me very proud to support the red white and blue. ��⚪��

[G-Mo77]

I've been a member since 81 and I've never been happier with where the club sits. Since 2014, 2 X VFL, 1 X AFL, 1 X AFLw premierships, no debt, profitable, record membership, great alliance with Ballarat, Mercedes, Mission and others, our vice president was integral in a deal to get Disney involved in docklands ( which will hopefully benefit us), a brilliant young CEO in Ameet who is very impressive; not to mention the amazing work done in the sons of the west and multicultural programs driven by the club. To suggest we are a joke or thought of as such doesn't have a factual basis and is more suitably written in rubbish newspapers and particular forums (not the fine folk of woof) where contemptuous armchair warriors rail against the club. Im not suggesting we are perfect, The failed Edgewater project, the sad departure of Jake and that abomination of a jumper yesterday is proof of that, however I think from a big picture point of view we are in the strongest position Ive seen in my days supporting the club which makes me very proud to support the red white and blue. ��⚪��

A financial side is only part of what happens off the field and I'll agree we have done pretty well there. Just read some of the things mainly BT posted and some others which are all off field decisions over the past 18 months. When you line them all up and have a read it is embarrassing.

[GVGjr]

I've been a member since 81 and I've never been happier with where the club sits. Since 2014, 2 X VFL, 1 X AFL, 1 X AFLw premierships, no debt, profitable, record membership, great alliance with Ballarat, Mercedes, Mission and others, our vice president was integral in a deal to get Disney involved in docklands ( which will hopefully benefit us), a brilliant young CEO in Ameet who is very impressive; not to mention the amazing work done in the sons of the west and multicultural programs driven by the club. To suggest we are a joke or thought of as such doesn't have a factual basis and is more suitably written in rubbish newspapers and particular forums (not the fine folk of woof) where contemptuous armchair warriors rail against the club. Im not suggesting we are perfect, The failed Edgewater project, the sad departure of Jake and that abomination of a jumper yesterday is proof of that, however I think from a big picture point of view we are in the strongest position Ive seen in my days supporting the club which makes me very proud to support the red white and blue. ��⚪��

Great comments on where the club is and there is of course plenty to admire about some of the things we have achieved but it's Chris Grants comments in the article that is being tested in this discussion and to me they don't ring as being true and accurate.
Surely we can have some constructive discussions on where we need to improve on without it being construed as a negative anti club sentiment? It certainly doesn't dismiss any of the other achievements.

So I go back to a couple of the original questions I asked, if the club suspected there could be a slide why have we been so passive with our list management especially at the draft table? Why did we deem our list strong enough, including our rookie list, to make minimal changes at the end of 2017 and now say we knew a slide was likely?

We have been debating this on the forum since 2016 flag and the article just opens up that discussion again.
If we've made some errors in list management and player assessment then call it out, it won't stop any of us supporting the club in the slightest.

[Twodogs]

Great comments on where the club is and there is of course plenty to admire about some of the things we have achieved but it's Chris Grants comments in the article that is being tested in this discussion and to me they don't ring as being true and accurate.
Surely we can have some constructive discussions on where we need to improve on without it being construed as a negative anti club sentiment? It certainly doesn't dismiss any of the other achievements.

So I go back to a couple of the original questions I asked, if the club suspected there could be a slide why have we been so passive with our list management especially at the draft table? Why did we deem our list strong enough, including our rookie list, to make minimal changes at the end of 2017 and now say we knew a slide was likely?

We have been debating this on the forum since 2016 flag and the article just opens up that discussion again.
If we've made some errors in list management and player assessment then call it out, it won't stop any of us supporting the club in the slightest.

Damn straight. We can't fix problems if we don't acknowledge we have a problem in the first place.

For instance this goal kicking problem has been building and building over a few years now. You could see the drop away in players techniques and confidence and eventually it has built up to crisis point. But we have been banging on about it (well I have) on WOOF for a while now, at least two years and probably longer. But we refused to acknowledge that there was a problem for ages (and still are for intents and purposes, we certainly aren't doing anything to address it) and now it's ingrained.

[Grantysghost]

Great comments on where the club is and there is of course plenty to admire about some of the things we have achieved but it's Chris Grants comments in the article that is being tested in this discussion and to me they don't ring as being true and accurate.
Surely we can have some constructive discussions on where we need to improve on without it being construed as a negative anti club sentiment? It certainly doesn't dismiss any of the other achievements.

So I go back to a couple of the original questions I asked, if the club suspected there could be a slide why have we been so passive with our list management especially at the draft table? Why did we deem our list strong enough, including our rookie list, to make minimal changes at the end of 2017 and now say we knew a slide was likely?

We have been debating this on the forum since 2016 flag and the article just opens up that discussion again.
If we've made some errors in list management and player assessment then call it out, it won't stop any of us supporting the club in the slightest.

Reading the article he doesn't say anything that left field to me, so I don't really get the angst. I respect people's right to (a semi intelligent) opinion and totally agree that we can call out the club and discuss the facts. This forum has some great passionate, insightful posters and thanks to those who maintain it, I'm a daily visitor.
In terms of the media, and information coming out clubs will change their position as situations change, I'm ok with that I don't expect anything different. For those who aren't happy with what he said, what should he have said? He states retirements of Boyd and Murphy were going to leave a hole, some of the young players would struggle backing up with manic pressure (he calls it their one wood), contested ball is the key, we are very young, the moons aligned for four weeks (after last game against Freo and injuries we all didn't think we had a chance), we need to give the kids gametime...etc. It's nothing too radical to me. It's a change in rhetoric from 2017; circumstances change.
Could you plan for Boyd / Cloke depression, Stringer's situation, Hamling leaving, injuries? How could we have done it better? Our recruits from the 2017 draft/trade period : Naughton and Richards have been incredible. Trengove has taken some time but is playing well now, Crozier I think has been ok not great (was better yesterday), Schache has massive potential and Porter I haven't seen a lot of so far but reports are he's progressing well. Previous year English, Lipinksi, Young all look like great choices, Greene also looks like he could be a player.
Trade wise in 2016, who was out there? Hurley was touted but he rejected us not much we can do about that, not sure if we had any nibbles at Prestia, Caddy or Hoskin Elliot but I assume feelers are put out. Last year I think we had a decent crack at Impey but he chose the Hawks, Charlie Cameron, Lever, Gibbs, Smith didn't want to come to us either so short of making ourselves more attractive I don't know how we could do more without inside knoweldge of the discussions that were had between club and agents.

This draft/trade we definitely need to bring in some mids, I agree with that part of the discussion. Possibly get a Gaff type in via trade, and target some young players from the expansion clubs (Ainsworth springs to mind, Jack Martin too).

So I think our actions match what Grant has said in the article, for those on the other side of the debate, I would like to know what guys think we should've done differently, and how we could have achieved it?

Good discussion. :)

[anfo27]

Examples please.

We have paid off our debts and created a strong viable club for the future through the hard work of Peter Gordon and the acquisition of primary land from the government.

I would love to hear from you why we are a joke?

Agree PG has done a great job in setting the club up. No debt! never thought i'd ever hear that about our club. For me its hard to remain positive about the club when our on field performance is so bad.
Our on field performance sadly is a joke, we are just far too easy to play against. Our performance added to what some of the other posters have written does make me feel embarrassed.

[Twodogs]

The no debt/better financial news is good news. So why aren't we trumpeting it? That's my first question.

My second question is, Is our financial situation (and security) relative to how well other clubs are going financially? 25-30 yo ago most of the clubs were deep in debt but some clubs were deeper than others so those were the clubs were the clubs that were in the gun.

Now that most clubs are claiming to be doing well financially and we are doing modestly well, does tgat mean we are still first in the firing line of bright ideas?

[bornadog]

I've been a member since 81 and I've never been happier with where the club sits. Since 2014, 2 X VFL, 1 X AFL, 1 X AFLw premierships, no debt, profitable, record membership, great alliance with Ballarat, Mercedes, Mission and others, our vice president was integral in a deal to get Disney involved in docklands ( which will hopefully benefit us), a brilliant young CEO in Ameet who is very impressive; not to mention the amazing work done in the sons of the west and multicultural programs driven by the club. To suggest we are a joke or thought of as such doesn't have a factual basis and is more suitably written in rubbish newspapers and particular forums (not the fine folk of woof) where contemptuous armchair warriors rail against the club. Im not suggesting we are perfect, The failed Edgewater project, the sad departure of Jake and that abomination of a jumper yesterday is proof of that, however I think from a big picture point of view we are in the strongest position Ive seen in my days supporting the club which makes me very proud to support the red white and blue. 🔴⚪🔵

Exactly how I feel. When I read things like the club is a joke it makes my blood boil. On field we are struggling big time and as I said no one is happy about that at all.

[bornadog]

Agree PG has done a great job in setting the club up. No debt! never thought i'd ever hear that about our club. For me its hard to remain positive about the club when our on field performance is so bad.
Our on field performance sadly is a joke, we are just far too easy to play against. Our performance added to what some of the other posters have written does make me feel embarrassed.

You think we are a joke on field have a look at the results this weekend. Brisbane currently down by 55 points at half time, GC lost by 85 points, Essendon by 70 plus.

Not sure what is going on, but there seems to be a massive divide between the top teams and bottom teams.

[GVGjr]

Trade wise in 2016, who was out there? Hurley was touted but he rejected us not much we can do about that, not sure if we had any nibbles at Prestia, Caddy or Hoskin Elliot but I assume feelers are put out. Last year I think we had a decent crack at Impey but he chose the Hawks, Charlie Cameron, Lever, Gibbs, Smith didn't want to come to us either so short of making ourselves more attractive I don't know how we could do more without inside knoweldge of the discussions that were had between club and agents.

This draft/trade we definitely need to bring in some mids, I agree with that part of the discussion. Possibly get a Gaff type in via trade, and target some young players from the expansion clubs (Ainsworth springs to mind, Jack Martin too).

So I think our actions match what Grant has said in the article, for those on the other side of the debate, I would like to know what guys think we should've done differently, and how we could have achieved it?

Good discussion. :)

So if Trade wise there wasn't much happening how does it explain drafting just 3 players and making minimal changes to the rookie list? Did we really not know that know that Hamling was a strong chance to leave? He was unsigned, and we initiated that, surely we knew that the manager of an unsigned player would put some feelers out particularly to his state of origin?
We chased Hurley but missed, found out Hamling was going to leave and also had Adams request a trade back home at the end of 2016 and signed no one. It never sounded like we were on top of it.

Nothing in the Chris Grant article rings true to me unless you just want to believe it more than look at the content of what he said.

[bulldogtragic]

So if Trade wise there wasn't much happening how does it explain drafting just 3 players and making minimal changes to the rookie list? Did we really not know that know that Hamling was a strong chance to leave? He was unsigned, and we initiated that, surely we knew that the manager of an unsigned player would put some feelers out particularly to his state of origin?
We chased Hurley but missed, found out Hamling was going to leave and also had Adams request a trade back home at the end of 2016 and signed no one. It never sounded like we were on top of it.

Nothing in the Chris Grant article rings true to me unless you just want to believe it more than look at the content of what he said.

Yep. You can both love Chris Grant the club champion player, but see through a fair bit of what's he's said recently as the overseer of the footy department (the main under performing area of the club).

[Grantysghost]

So if Trade wise there wasn't much happening how does it explain drafting just 3 players and making minimal changes to the rookie list? We did we really not know that know that Hamling was a strong chance to leave? He was unsigned, and we initiated that, surely we knew that the manager of an unsigned player would put some feelers out particularly to his state of origin?
We chased Hurley but missed, found out Hamling was going to leave and also had Adams request a trade back home at the end of 2016 and signed no one. It never sounded like we were on top of it.

Nothing in the Chris Grant article rings true to me unless you just want to believe it more than look at the content of what he said.

Nothing ? Seriously ? Murphy and Boyd would leave a hole, be hard to sustain manic pressure with a young list, the moon's aligned what is there not to believe? I won't bang on but respectfully agree to disagree.

[bornadog]

Nothing ? Seriously ? Murphy and Boyd would leave a hole, be hard to sustain manic pressure with a young list, the moon's aligned what is there not to believe? I won't bang on but respectfully agree to disagree.

In regards to drafting, how many more young players could we have brought in? We drafted three young players, plus we brought in Trengove, Crozier and Schache. I don't think we could have cut deeper at the time and brought in another two or three young players. How many can you have under 21. We already have 18 players 21 and under and another 11 who are 24 and under.

[Grantysghost]

In regards to drafting, how many more young players could we have brought in? We drafted three young players, plus we brought in Trengove, Crozier and Schache. I don't think we could have cut deeper at the time and brought in another two or three young players. How many can you have under 21. We already have 18 players 21 and under and another 11 who are 24 and under.

Spot on .

[Eastdog]

Murphy and Boyd have been big losses but was always going to happen eventually.

I would have liked Boydy to go around for another year as I thought he was good in his final game.

I think our young players we have brought have been a huge positive. English has shown a lot in the ruck, Lipinski has been very good at times in the forward line, Ed Richards been quite good, Aaron Naughton down in defence been good.

We certainly are missing guys like Picko and Libba. Would be great to have these two back although I'm not sure what Pickos future will be at the club. Gowers is still young and beena very effective forward for us this year and Schache since coming in has shown some signs.

[GVGjr]

Nothing ? Seriously ? Murphy and Boyd would leave a hole, be hard to sustain manic pressure with a young list, the moon's aligned what is there not to believe? I won't bang on but respectfully agree to disagree.

How many good games did Boyd play in 2017 and how many did Murphy play in 2016? To me it's an inaccurate excuse Grant has offered that indicates that the two of them were prime movers in both 2016 and 2017. Also did we not know they were retiring? Given we have a huge number of back flanker types on the list I'd say we had them covered.

I get why some want to believe whatever the club says but no one has said anything close to convince me that the club expected or at least planned for a slide.

[bulldogtragic]

How many good games did Boyd play in 2017 and how many did Murphy play in 2016? To me it's an inaccurate excuse Grant has offered that indicates that the two of them were prime movers in both 2016 and 2017. Also did we not know they were retiring? Given we have a huge number of back flanker types on the list I'd say we had them covered.

I get why some want to believe whatever the club says but no one has said anything close to convince me that the club expected or at least planned for a slide.

From memory, Bevo at least, was saying Bob & Wallis coming back into the side off long term injuries in 2017 would make us a better side. Then there's Grant's comments. Both can't be right as we were either going to be better to get two better players back which would enhance our success, or we were planning for a potential free fall in spite of getting these guys back into the starting 22.

[Grantysghost]

How many good games did Boyd play in 2017 and how many did Murphy play in 2016? To me it's an inaccurate excuse Grant has offered that indicates that the two of them were prime movers in both 2016 and 2017. Also did we not know they were retiring? Given we have a huge number of back flanker types on the list I'd say we had them covered.

I get why some want to believe whatever the club says but no one has said anything close to convince me that the club expected or at least planned for a slide.

What would you be happy with him saying, and what should we have done differently ?

[Sedat]

So the club should have tempered expectations immediately after winning a flag. Makes sense, wouldn’t have been mauled by all and sundry at all!
There's a way to temper expectations and sell the message in a positive manner. It is called communication.

Phrases like "we are still very much a work in progress" and "we need to keep investing heavily in bringing in new talent to the club via the draft and trades" convey positivity but also temper external expectations in line with our internal analysis. And we would not have sold one less membership.

[Grantysghost]

There's a way to temper expectations and sell the message in a positive manner. It is called communication.

Phrases like "we are still very much a work in progress" and "we need to keep investing heavily in bringing in new talent to the club via the draft and trades" convey positivity but also temper external expectations in line with our internal analysis. And we would not have sold one less membership.

That's a good point, would've been a better strategy.

[The Pie Man]

There's a way to temper expectations and sell the message in a positive manner. It is called communication.

Phrases like "we are still very much a work in progress" and "we need to keep investing heavily in bringing in new talent to the club via the draft and trades" convey positivity but also temper external expectations in line with our internal analysis. And we would not have sold one less membership.

TBF, Jason McCartney did just that (in bold) I think on trade radio, spring 2016

Just a rumour I heard, but it would support the lack of effort evident...heard a few in the group are still sore from the manner of Jake Stringers exit.

[azabob]

The interesting thing for me is Beveridge's speech at the season launch in March. In particular the quote below (http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2018-03-14/its-a-new-journey-beveridge)

"I’m not going to urge you to be patient, I won’t urge you to be excited. I won’t urge you to be supportive or even optimistic".

In isolation it be appears to be nothing, but if you actually listen to how he delivers it, for me it takes on another meaning.
Basically saying we need to be patient and supportive as 2018 will be a tough year.

I thought at the time it wasn't very uplifting or optimistic and was quite subdued. However I didn't want to think too much of it as I was certain we'd return to top 4 calculations.

Over the last few weeks that speech has been playing over in my head and I'm starting to think Beveridges expectations for 2018 weren't great and we'd be lucky to play finals.

The club clearly has dropped the ball big time off field - not some much commercially but it can't be denied that we have messed up a number of Football Admin / management decisions since MID 2016.

It all started with the moving on of Brett Montgomery, rotating the assistant coaches, Graham Lowe moving on, Chris Maple's role chopping and changing, gifting Hamling to Fremantle, letting the players come back in poor condition physically and mentally for the 2017 season & being unable to correct it, the fascination with players being flexible and playing in multiple positions, being unable to manage the dynamic between Jason McCartney & Simon Dalrymple which ultimately left our list in the hole.

Chris Grant started on the board as non executive Football Director and was appointed Director of Football in mid 2016 to oversee the mens (AFL & VFL) 7 womens team. Did this appointment lead to Graham Lowe having less responsibility and decision making power?

Luke Beveridge is on public record saying how important and how much support Graham Lowe provided him in 2015 & 2016. To have a Football GM leave in the February of the next year after wining a flag is unheard of!!

Why after wining the VFL premierships in 2014 & 2016 did we change the head coach? Both times Chris Maple and Ashley Hanson were given new rolls within the club. Chris Maple in particular was put in charge of the VFL team because of his development capabilities of younger players.

Have our younger players come on as expected? It would be hard to argue that they have.

In isolation these changes are not huge but when each one is added up and to have occurred within the space of 18 months it is a lot of instability.

We have gone from the coach saying birth certificates don't mean anything to now using youth as an excuse for poor skills, not staying in games for long enough and losing games. Clearly we have an issue with goal kicking, structure, ability to follow a game plan, we lack desire for the contest and lack desire for the man.

I fear for the 2nd half of the season, I can't see us wining another game for 2018. Forget about trying to secure a free agent to fix this mess. The entire club needs to roll up their sleeves and work our butts off to move forward again. As I for one hate 4.40 Sunday games...

[bornadog]

Good Post Aza, although I don't really agree on the off field stuff as every club has senior managers come and go, but could have been more disruptive than we thought.

In hindsight (and I may have even posted this), we should have turned over a few assistants and at least brought in a senior person to replace Monty and help Bevo. I remember Rocket telling me a few things about Monty which were less than favourable, so maybe there was something in that and the reason for his sudden departure before the 2016 finals.

I think also you are right about the season launch, Bevo's speech was not outstanding this year, and seemed a little flat.

[GVGjr]

What would you be happy with him saying, and what should we have done differently ?

I'm not trying to shape opinions, I really want to read something that adequately explains what Grant is actually saying.

[bulldogtragic]

I'm not trying to shape opinions, I really want to read something that adequately explains what Grant is actually saying.

There's nothing. It's spin. But what we fail to recognise is that with spin (see the draft propaganda video last year too) is that for spin to work effectively most people have to buy what you're selling. Whomever is feeding Grant these talking point narratives, and the draft video narrative, needs to be sacked. I'm not sure how many people will buy this, and there's certainly no adequate explanation for what Grant said other than our PR/media comm's person has given him a howler of a spin line to try to sell.

[Grantysghost]

I'm not trying to shape opinions, I really want to read something that adequately explains what Grant is actually saying.

Maybe I'm insane, but it's not an encoded message.

[GVGjr]

Maybe I'm insane, but it's not an encoded message.

To me it's not consistent with previous messages from the club. It's trying to say the poor performances this year was all part of the plan.

[Grantysghost]

To me it's not consistent with previous messages from the club. It's trying to say the poor performances this year was all part of the plan.

Fair enough I see what you're saying .

[G-Mo77]

There's nothing. It's spin. But what we fail to recognise is that with spin (see the draft propaganda video last year too) is that for spin to work effectively most people have to buy what you're selling. Whomever is feeding Grant these talking point narratives, and the draft video narrative, needs to be sacked. I'm not sure how many people will buy this, and there's certainly no adequate explanation for what Grant said other than our PR/media comm's person has given him a howler of a spin line to try to sell.

You'll have to refresh my memory on that one. Was it the one where we wanted to take Porter at 16 and were happy to take him at 70ish?

[bulldogtragic]

You'll have to refresh my memory on that one. Was it the one where we wanted to take Porter at 16 and were happy to take him at 70ish?

That video. Of the 1,000 or so draft nominees to the draft, we only wanted 3 players out the entire 1,000 players. And we got exactly those three. Get the results first, and then say overly specifically it was the exact plan. One of the finest propaganda pieces of the 21st century. I hope they don't insult the intelligence of the many again this year.

[Grantysghost]

That video. Of the 1,000 or so draft nominees to the draft, we only wanted 3 players out the entire 1,000 players. And we got exactly those three. Get the results first, and then say overly specifically it was the exact plan. One of the finest propaganda pieces of the 21st century. I hope they don't insult the intelligence of the many again this year.

This kind of rubbish is making this forum less and less attractive. Just move on to another side.

[bulldogtragic]

This kind of rubbish is making this forum less and less attractive. Just move on to another side.

I said it at the time along with many others, read through the thread on it if you like. It's nothing new. If you don't like the forum, don't post. Don't read it. Some on here of can disagree with a point someone makes and not make it personal. You're not one, that's cool whatever. I'll also take my decisions on which club to invest my hard earned from me. But thanks for the free advice.

[azabob]

This kind of rubbish is making this forum less and less attractive. Just move on to another side.

Don’t leave BT, I enjoy reading your posts and wild hypotheticals.

[bulldogtragic]

Don’t leave BT, I enjoy reading your posts and wild hypotheticals.

I'm not going anywhere my friend. I'm big enough to say I'm wrong when it's evident (ie recently mischaracterising Lachies poor kicking and decision making as 'dumb'). I'm also happy to push back when posters decry the state of the forum, the same forum they use to tell members that they make the same forum less 'attractive' and offer advice to 'move on to another side'. Seems a tad ironic.

[Grantysghost]

I said it at the time along with many others, read through the thread on it if you like. It's nothing new. If you don't like the forum, don't post. Don't read it. Some on here of can disagree with a point someone makes and not make it personal. You're not one, that's cool whatever. I'll also take my decisions on which club to invest my hard earned from me. But thanks for the free advice.

How was it personal? I didnt abuse you, I disagreed with your comment and called it rubbish. If you cant process that without taking it personally, yet hammer the club and individuals you're clearly being hypocritical. You've got a clique and that's nice but I've seen absolutely zero facts to back up inane comments. I'll have a chat with Granty Tuesday night and see what he thinks about his own turning on him to satisfy their own unsubstantiated rantings.

[GVGjr]

I'll have a chat with Granty Tuesday night and see what he thinks about his own turning on him to satisfy their own unsubstantiated rantings.

I hope he is there, looking forward to hearing from the club myself

I'm not sure that challenging the comments by the club is the same turning against the club but that's your call.

[Before I Die]

I've read through the above posts* and I have to say that of all of them, Chris Grant's rings most true. I don't see it as spin, I see it as an honest reflection on the current situation and an acknowledgement that this was always going to be a possibility. We were far from the best team in 2016 except for a 4 week period. How important were Libba, Dickson, Picken and M Boyd over this 4 week period. Would we have been premiers without them? Would we have been finalists that year without them? It was obvious to blind Freddy that there was always a strong possibility that our aging warriors would deteriorate faster than our young players would come on. Plus the question of whether our young players could even maintain their own form without the experience and leadership of the veterans. This drop off wasn't a given, but it was a definite possibility with our age profile, particularly if we got injuries to key players. That is all Grant is saying.

Regarding other possible causes of our malaise. It could be this, it could be that, or it could be something else. Every supporter has a pet theory and is quick to see support for their theory in any poor performance. Poor recruiting, poor player development, poor fitness levels, poor match day coaching, poor list development, Eagleton. All the theories above may have some validity, maybe not Eagleton, but I think Grant nailed the most likely.

* prior to 5.30pm

[bulldogtragic]

How was it personal? I didnt abuse you, I disagreed with your comment and called it rubbish. If you cant process that without taking it personally, yet hammer the club and individuals you're clearly being hypocritical. You've got a clique and that's nice but I've seen absolutely zero facts to back up inane comments. I'll have a chat with Granty Tuesday night and see what he thinks about his own turning on him to satisfy their own unsubstantiated rantings.

Well, if you paid attention... I said someone obviously fed the line to Chris and that person should be outed. So tell the (presumably) PR/media person who gave it to him, and tell Chris not fall into feeding us their spin. It's kind of weird that your time with Chris is prioritised with asking him what some of us think about varying issues the club seems to failing in. I'd be asking him about how we will turn it around on field, how the new recruiters & Power are working or whether he thinks his daughter will get recruited. But ask him what some people are saying here, he'll say he's not losing any sleep, you can tell us all high and mighty, I'll say I'm not losing any sleep...

On 'fact less' and 'unsubstantiated'. Opinions are being offered, at lest by me, they're by their nature individual and open to interpretation of many things not necessarily the 'facts' as anyone else sees them. You can tell us to drink the coolaid that's fine, the world needs positively bright, optimistic, believers, but it doesn't mean we have to drink it if we don't want to. If you think you're better or more loyal member for telling me to find another side to follow, and things like taking your moral outrage to Chris, good for you, you're better than me. Now that this is established, surely there's something more constructive to put time into.

[Sedat]

I think the main issue some of us have with Granty's comments is that our actions since 2016 do not correlate at all with the premise of his comments. We gave multiple year contracts to players like Redders, Roberts, Clay Smith, Jong and Campbell, all of whom were 16-30 players on the list. This confidence in our list was reinforced when we made minimal list changes in the off-season after the flag. That says to me we were very happy with the list and only needed some minor tweaking to contend again, which is in complete contrast to Granty's comments.

The truth as always lies somewhere in between. But the comments were reactionary and only came to light in the knowledge that we are nowhere near contending in 2018.

The really good clubs can control the narrative and the message, and we've been very poor in this area the last 12 months. As others have pointed out we are flying off the field with no debt, record memberships and sponsorships, and an amazing deal to reclaim incredibly expensive public land for nothing to redevlop our home base. But none of these genuinely feel-good stories have cut through at all. That's 100% the fault of our communications dept and our off-field leaders.

[Grantysghost]

Well, if you paid attention... I said someone obviously fed the line to Chris and that person should be outed. So tell the (presumably) PR/media person who gave it to him, and tell Chris not fall into feeding us their spin. It's kind of weird that your time with Chris is prioritised with asking him what some of us think about varying issues the club seems to failing in. I'd be asking him about how we will turn it around on field, how the new recruiters & Power are working or whether he thinks his daughter will get recruited. But ask him what some people are saying here, he'll say he's not losing any sleep, you can tell us all high and mighty, I'll say I'm not losing any sleep...

On 'fact less' and 'unsubstantiated'. Opinions are being offered, at lest by me, they're by their nature individual and open to interpretation of many things not necessarily the 'facts' as anyone else sees them. You can tell us to drink the coolaid that's fine, the world needs positively bright, optimistic, believers, but it doesn't mean we have to drink it if we don't want to. If you think you're better or more loyal member for telling me to find another side to follow, and things like taking your moral outrage to Chris, good for you, you're better than me. Now that this is established, surely there's something more constructive to put time into.

So tell me what we could have done differently? Give me your blueprint for success. So far, I'm enjoying the debate but a little disappointed with the lack of reasoning behind some opinions other than amazing hindsight. To me, every time I challenge a ridiculous assumption, the responses dig a deeper hole of nonsense. What exactly are the facts behind these opinions?

[bulldogtragic]

I think the main issue some of us have with Granty's comments is that our actions since 2016 do not correlate at all with the premise of his comments. We gave multiple year contracts to players like Redders, Roberts, Clay Smith, Jong and Campbell, all of whom were 16-30 players on the list. This confidence in our list was reinforced when we made minimal changes in the off-season after the flag. That says to me we were very happy with the list and only needed some minor tweaking to contend again, which is in complete contrast to Granty's comments.

The truth as always lies somewhere in between. But the comments were reactionary and only in light of the fact that we are nowhere near contending in 2018.

The really good clubs can control the narrative and the message, and we've been very poor in this area the last 12 months. As other have pointed out we are flying off the field with no debt, record memberships and sponsorships, and an amazing deal to reclaim incredibly expensive public land for nothing to redevlop our home base. But none of these genuinely feel-good stories have cut through at all. That's 100% the fault of our communications dept and our off-field leaders.

That's it in a nutshell with our communications/media staff, be it the draft video, this reticle or not getting ahead adequately of Stringer and Alberti stories. They're self inflicted wounds which serve to drown out the good news stories. I hope that Bains conducts a full review on the area and fix it up ASAP.

To your points on this article. From round 1, 2017 we had our captain & AA Bob, club leading goal kicker Crameri & hard at it leader Mitch Wallis coming back into the 22. We had Cloke (another club leading goal kicker) coming into the side after convincing Bevo he would add value and played in round 1. I struggle to believe with these four coming in at R1 2017, we were actually thinking things would be going bad well before R1. I'd like to believe the article, but common sense overrides club bias/passion on this latest communication/media piece I'm afraid.

[bulldogtragic]

So tell me what we could have done differently? Give me your blueprint for success. So far, I'm enjoying the debate but a little disappointed with the lack of reasoning behind some opinions other than amazing hindsight. To me, every time I challenge a ridiculous assumption, the responses dig a deeper hole of nonsense. What exactly are the facts behind these opinions?

Feel free to dot point your issues or my rediculous assumptions and I'm happy to reply with clarification.

Edit: if you could please quote my posts with facts/opinions/my alternate blueprint for success/hindsight matters etc, that will make it easier to do the above.

[Before I Die]

I think the main issue some of us have with Granty's comments is that our actions since 2016 do not correlate at all with the premise of his comments. We gave multiple year contracts to players like Redders, Roberts, Clay Smith, Jong and Campbell, all of whom were 16-30 players on the list. This confidence in our list was reinforced when we made minimal list changes in the off-season after the flag. That says to me we were very happy with the list and only needed some minor tweaking to contend again, which is in complete contrast to Granty's comments.

The truth as always lies somewhere in between. But the comments were reactionary and only came to light in the knowledge that we are nowhere near contending in 2018.

The really good clubs can control the narrative and the message, and we've been very poor in this area the last 12 months. As others have pointed out we are flying off the field with no debt, record memberships and sponsorships, and an amazing deal to reclaim incredibly expensive public land for nothing to redevlop our home base. But none of these genuinely feel-good stories have cut through at all. That's 100% the fault of our communications dept and our off-field leaders.

Agree completely with your final paragraph.

I think the contracts indicated that the club did have confidence in the list and I don't see this as being at odds with Grants statement. Even with confidence in the group, a drop off was always a strong possibility for the reasons he gave. The pressure is now on the 100 gamers to step up and I think some may fail the test. Beefing up this group is the reason Trengrove and Crozier have been brought in. Unfortunately they are struggling with the test too.

[Grantysghost]

My question is what you think we could do differently?

[Grantysghost]

I've read through the above posts* and I have to say that of all of them, Chris Grant's rings most true. I don't see it as spin, I see it as an honest reflection on the current situation and an acknowledgement that this was always going to be a possibility. We were far from the best team in 2016 except for a 4 week period. How important were Libba, Dickson, Picken and M Boyd over this 4 week period. Would we have been premiers without them? Would we have been finalists that year without them? It was obvious to blind Freddy that there was always a strong possibility that our aging warriors would deteriorate faster than our young players would come on. Plus the question of whether our young players could even maintain their own form without the experience and leadership of the veterans. This drop off wasn't a given, but it was a definite possibility with our age profile, particularly if we got injuries to key players. That is all Grant is saying.

Regarding other possible causes of our malaise. It could be this, it could be that, or it could be something else. Every supporter has a pet theory and is quick to see support for their theory in any poor performance. Poor recruiting, poor player development, poor fitness levels, poor match day coaching, poor list development, Eagleton. All the theories above may have some validity, maybe not Eagleton, but I think Grant nailed the most likely.

* prior to 5.30pm

Replace Eagleton with Honeychurch. Other than that, spot on.

[Sedat]

To your points on this article. From round 1, 2017 we had our captain & AA Bob, club leading goal kicker Crameri & hard at it leader Mitch Wallis coming back into the 22. We had Cloke (another club leading goal kicker) coming into the side after convincing Bevo he would add value and played in round 1. I struggle to believe with these four coming in at R1 2017, we were actually thinking things would be going bad well before R1. I'd like to believe the article, but common sense overrides club bias/passion on this latest communication/media piece I'm afraid.
Yep, that's precisely where Granty's comments fail the sniff test for mine.

[Grantysghost]

Yep, that's precisely where Granty's comments fail the sniff test for mine.

What sniff test? You guys are losing me. There's no conspiracy ! Bag me out, I'm a lurker, I don't post much. What i do is pump alot of money into the club and I'm fortunate enough to be able to go to all home games and talk to people like Gary Kent ( who was not happy on the weekend I can tell you ! ). I've been to 8 prelims with one victory, the GWS prelim was the pinnacle for me. Guys, people at the club are doing their best, they love the place they work their arses off they have been responsible for four club flags in four years. Yep we aren't going that well at the moment but surely we can see the simple explanation of a young list. Forget the rhetoric I think. See whats happening at the club with your own eyes. It's pretty bloody good.

[bulldogtragic]

My question is what you think we could do differently?

Hire better communications staff. Team's performance rise and fall. My problem with our communications/media department who give up owns goals far too often. As posted above, we've got some good news stories which are starved of oxygen because I think we are inept in this regard. This article to me is another example, which as I've said, is a reflection on who gave Turtle the talking points.

In a past life I was a media manager for a while, have a limited media interest now. I know how the game is played with editors/producers and especially journos, how your meant to play the game and what good and bad performance is. Things in this area are worse than our on field performance to be honest. We sent out our most credible face to the media, and more importantly our members, and inextricably left him wide open thinking his credibility could cover the poor messaging. The media will have all filed this, and the likes of Barrett will weaponise it when it will hurt us the most. It was a poor idea backed up with poor talking points from people charged with this responsibility which has done nothing for the club or Turtle.

So I would've done things differently over the past year in getting ahead of Stringer & Alberti (particularly bad), explained Danny's move to a different club role more effectively, executed the draft video to what it could've been (which was potentially good) and in trying to get ahead of a possibly bad back half of the year I would've fine tuned the comm's strategy to the enth degree, worked out the talking points to a more palatable or easily digestible level and then, and only then sent Turtle out. What I'd do differently in the future, is I'd get new people. Own goals are the ones that hurt the most, and easily avoidable.

[bulldogtragic]

What sniff test? You guys are losing me. There's no conspiracy ! Bag me out, I'm a lurker, I don't post much. What i do is pump alot of money into the club and I'm fortunate enough to be able to go to all home games and talk to people like Gary Kent ( who was not happy on the weekend I can tell you ! ). I've been to 8 prelims with one victory, the GWS prelim was the pinnacle for me. Guys, people at the club are doing their best, they love the place they work their arses off they have been responsible for four club flags in four years. Yep we aren't going that well at the moment but surely we can see the simple explanation of a young list. Forget the rhetoric I think. See whats happening at the club with your own eyes. It's pretty bloody good.

Common ground. Yes, the GWS prelim was the best game to attend ever. I don't think anyone is pissed at Bains, Kent, especially Turtle, Kent, PG, the board. And in this respect the footy department isn't in the firing line. One area in particular to me is a weak link, the comm's area. We need to fix it up. And I'll use a Tibetan Buddhist metaphor, tweaked a bit:

Imagine you're standing on the top of a mountain.
The club is generally very good off field. Like a bright blue sky.
Our comm's area are dark and threatening clouds covering the sky.
The sky is still bright blue (which we know), but because of these shit house comm's dark clouds not everyone can see it.
If those dark clouds get moved on, then we can stand on the top of the mountain seeing nothing but blue sky basking in sunshine.

We need to move the clouds on for the betterment of the club, not in spite of it.

[bornadog]

So I would've done things differently over the past year in getting ahead of Stringer & Alberti (particularly bad), explained Danny's move to a different club role more effectively, executed the draft video to what it could've been (which was potentially good) and in trying to get ahead of a possibly bad back half of the year I would've fine tuned the comm's strategy to the enth degree, worked out the talking points to a more palatable or easily digestible level and then, and only then sent Turtle out. What I'd do differently in the future, is I'd get new people. Own goals are the ones that hurt the most, and easily avoidable.

I have been reading all the posts and just shaking my head. Those issues above that you have outlined are really minor and forgetable and give very little reason to bag the club.

[bulldogtragic]

I have been reading all the posts and just shaking my head. Those issues above that you have outlined are really minor and forgetable and give very little reason to bag the club.

I respectfully disagree. What they are are a pattern of incompetence. If it's mentionable, it's manageable. Some need to be managed out. It should be an easy fix, with fast return on investment. Why wouldn't we want to have a far better media presence?

I'll have to go over my posts, I didn't realise I was bagging the club.

[bornadog]

I respectfully disagree. What they are are a pattern of incompetence. If it's mentionable, it's manageable. Some need to be managed out. It should be an easy fix, with fast return on investment. Why wouldn't we want to have a far better media presence?

I'll have to go over my posts, I didn't realise I was bagging the club.

Ok, I will take each of your concerns:

1. Stringer - you know he had to go, what else do you think we could have said and done?

2. Alberti - Club made a statement on why she wasn't allowed through the Players and officials gate- what else do you want done here?

3. Banner man - That was explained in an address to members? I don't like the decision, but we were told by the club what they were doing in future. Not the end of the world, its just a banner.

4. Bagging the club - I was generalising.

[Sedat]

What sniff test?
The message being conveyed for the first time this weekend that we "always knew there could be a potential drop-off" is contradicted by our minimal list changes, re-contracting a number of fringe players on multi-year deals and the bringing in of Cloke/trumpeted return of Crammers/Bob/Wally. This message has already been contradicted by Zaine Cordy on 3AW yesterday.

I don't necessarily disagree with what Granty said per se, but it goes against everything we've said since Oct 1st 2016 until yesterday, and our actions in that time don't reflect yesterday's message at all.

[Sedat]

Those issues above that you have outlined are really minor and forgetable and give very little reason to bag the club.
Are you happy with the performance of our communications dept that these 'minor' issues have been given significant negative media air time while the fantastic good news stories have not generated any publicity whatsoever? I'm not.

[Ozza]

I think there is a level of overreaction to Chris Grant’s comments. I suspect there will be a week of similar overreaction in the media, because it is a very easy angle to look at a team that is not performing on field and then find comments the past that contradict what Chris Grant has said.

And to be clear, I am not disputing that Chris has contradicted some of the previous messaging. But some perspective please, the club communicates to the media/supporters/public through a variety of mediums and with dozens of people at the club as their mouthpieces in any given week or month. I don’t think that it is realistic to expect that contradictions will never occur, especially if we are talking about a timeline over a 20 month period.

If the club had have scraped through to the finals last year, maybe even won a final - and then this year was marginally better in the W/L column, then its likely that the views expressed by Grant, which were obviously held internally - would never have come out publically.

I respect all the ranges views on here - but what I would probably hope is that they were slightly more accepting that when we are talking about a football club - we are talking about a high pressure environment, heavily scrutinized in terms of public comment and one where the outcome on a weekend can change narratives and the trajectory careers drastically and quickly. Nobody is doing it perfectly all of the time.

[bulldogtragic]

Ok, I will take each of your concerns:

1. Stringer - you know he had to go, what else do you think we could have said and done?

2. Alberti - Club made a statement on why she wasn't allowed through the Players and officials gate- what else do you want done here?

3. Banner man - That was explained in an address to members? I don't like the decision, but we were told by the club what they were doing in future. Not the end of the world, its just a banner.

4. Bagging the club - I was generalising.


1. Stringer had to go. 100%. Announcing it the way did lacked any sophistication. We should have had a war counsel on the topic and used strategic messaging to try, at least, to position negotiations a bit better. It would also have allowed the club to manage membership expectations or improve the messaging to us as to the reasoning (to the extent we wanted some details, but not all out). Would it have made a difference to the trade, trade period, circus around him, members etc? I don't know, but I think it could've been better than it was.

2. Alberti - A statement was not enough. We should've been way ahead of this, assuming we wanted this to a be a red line issue that we couldn't live with. Whether you think the own goal was ours, or hers for us, it was an own goal that should've either been resolved quietly or more active in the media. This was a debacle. A story is just the finished product, the point of having comm's people is to not have a grenade blow up in your lap. A statement or talking head is only a small piece of the process.

3. Danny - Again, we could've been a fair bit more engaged in the strategic comm's on this for it to land a bit better.

4. Thanks. So you're just bagging me? It's ok, I'm just generalising your point 4 :D :D

5. The draft day video last year. Again, something that was a good idea but the messaging was so bad it left me and many on here feeling like it was a propaganda video. That should've and could've been a lay up, but the tone and messaging was way off

6. We don't seem to have a good relationship with the footy media as a generalisation. You'd like to think we are capable of doing more or doing better.

7. The article of this thread is just another example. I've said my piece already on it. But it's a pattern of competence to me.

8. If people who love having a Wallis at the club, or the legion of kids who love Dahl, let's hope our messaging is better or it will be brutal if either decide to look for opportunities at another club.

Simply, I just think we can and should do better. We're doing so very well financially that we can afford new or more staff to help us achieve our ends. Because if they're doing their jobs well, media is better, selling memberships may increase, members are happier etc.

[bornadog]

Are you happy with the performance of our communications dept that these 'minor' issues have been given significant negative media air time while the fantastic good news stories have not generated any publicity whatsoever? I'm not.

Not at all, I don't believe anything written in newspapers/Media and only half of what people tell me. Media these days look for the most minor thing and report negatively about it.

[GVGjr]

What sniff test? You guys are losing me. There's no conspiracy ! Bag me out, I'm a lurker, I don't post much. What i do is pump alot of money into the club and I'm fortunate enough to be able to go to all home games and talk to people like Gary Kent ( who was not happy on the weekend I can tell you ! ). I've been to 8 prelims with one victory, the GWS prelim was the pinnacle for me. Guys, people at the club are doing their best, they love the place they work their arses off they have been responsible for four club flags in four years. Yep we aren't going that well at the moment but surely we can see the simple explanation of a young list. Forget the rhetoric I think. See whats happening at the club with your own eyes. It's pretty bloody good.

Yes there is a number of positive things happening at the club, and feel free to start threads on that, and we will hear about the positive efforts on Tuesday night but challenging the words of Chris Grant in the article shouldn't be seen as being negative towards the club.
It certainly doesn't change my view or my commitment towards the club and I doubt it's an issue for anyone else either.
The vast majority who have contributed towards the discussions aren't playing the man just the words, and if that is being negative in other peoples eyes then so be it. Some are frustrated, very very few are negative.

[bulldogtragic]

Not at all, I don't believe anything written in newspapers/Media and only half of what people tell me. Media these days look for the most minor thing and report negatively about it.

True. I don't read his column, but the weaponising of it will it be something like:

IF, Chris Grant believes the dogs would fall off after the 2016 flag - THEN, (insert reason to slag off Bevo)

He gets a three for one. Slams Bevo, slams Dogs & slams our most credible ambassador (this part sucks especially). That's not great considering most people read and believe newspapers, opinion columns like his and apparently like Bruce, BT, Ling, Basil etc. (or else how else would they be the free to air commentators!?!?!). It's easy to dismiss it as media BS, but it's not helpful for the club. We need Essendon to be caught doping again to get under the cover of a bigger story.

[bornadog]

True. I don't read his column, but the weaponising of it will it be something like:

IF, Chris Grant believes the dogs would fall off after the 2016 flag - THEN, (insert reason to slag off Bevo)

He gets a three for one. Slams Bevo, slams Dogs & slams our most credible ambassador (this part sucks especially). That's not great considering most people read and believe newspapers, opinion columns like his and apparently like Bruce, BT, Ling, Basil etc. (or else how else would they be the free to air commentators!?!?!). It's easy to dismiss it as media BS, but it's not helpful for the club. We need Essendon to be caught doping again to get under the cover of a bigger story.

No one cares about us. If you listen to SEN, or watch any of the footy shows, they rarely talk about us. They don't even know who Toby Mclean is and only found out about Macrae a few weeks ago when he racked up 40 plus two weeks in a row. Guys like Barrett are trying their guts out to find dirt, but there isn't anything. Chris was probably quoted out of context, who knows what he said and what question he as answering. I just don't believe anything the media write.

There are a couple of comments, particularly on the first page of this thread, are just made with emotion after losing yesterday, instead of with some thought. That is what pisses me off.

[MrMahatma]

I'm gutted by our season. Another one wasted.

But, as the glass half full guy I am, I reckon we're 1 more English preseason and 1 gun mid with pace (pick 5 this year) away from being a threat again. Our defence is building well. We've found 3 in Naughton, Richards and Williams this year.

Our midfield lacks depth by Macrae and McLean are both having career best seasons and surely Bont is injured.

Our fwd line will settle down when Boyd doesn't have to ruck and Shcache (who is already showing good signs) has another 15-20 matches under his belt.

So the decline may have always be possible. The proof (in our ability to see the issue and respond to it) will be in us getting back up for a sustained crack at it very soon.

I reserve the right to still be ropeable after every loss. Particularly if we lose to Port as I'm planning on being there.

[bornadog]

Nice one Mr M

[Mantis]

In regards to drafting, how many more young players could we have brought in? We drafted three young players, plus we brought in Trengove, Crozier and Schache. I don't think we could have cut deeper at the time and brought in another two or three young players. How many can you have under 21. We already have 18 players 21 and under and another 11 who are 24 and under.

It's the type of players we brought in that besides Schache offer no point of difference to what we already have.

Sure Naughton & Richards are going to be very good players, but all it does is push the likes of Roberts, Collins, Biggs, etc further down the list and give the list no flexibility.

Probably brings up the point that you should be able to trade & delist players post the National Draft.

[Mofra]

It's the type of players we brought in that besides Schache offer no point of difference to what we already have.

Sure Naughton & Richards are going to be very good players, but all it does is push the likes of Roberts, Collins, Biggs, etc further down the list and give the list no flexibility.

Probably brings up the point that you should be able to trade & delist players post the National Draft.
I prefer the 'best available' mantra in the first round, and if we were to take lesser players with top ten picks to preserve the careers of Roberts or Collins than that would be an unmitigated disaster. Neither are best 22 when Naughton (and Adams) is out of the side.

Richards looks brilliant and no way would I want to pass him for Biggs who has Roarke Smith getting picked ahead of him right now anyway (although I dare say that could change after the bye).

[Mantis]

I prefer the 'best available' mantra in the first round, and if we were to take lesser players with top ten picks to preserve the careers of Roberts or Collins than that would be an unmitigated disaster. Neither are best 22 when Naughton (and Adams) is out of the side.

Richards looks brilliant and no way would I want to pass him for Biggs who has Roarke Smith getting picked ahead of him right now anyway (although I dare say that could change after the bye).

I'm very happy with who we drafted as both players are going to be 200+ players, but the list profile was already out of whack pre-trade/draft period and then we added Crozier, Trengove, Naughton & Richards to an area already over-loaded with options, abit not very good ones.

[Mofra]

I'm very happy with who we drafted as both players are going to be 200+ players, but the list profile was already out of whack pre-trade/draft period and then we added Crozier, Trengove, Naughton & Richards to an area already over-loaded with options, abit not very good ones.
For some reason we recruited Trengove as a ruck/forward (he'd played his best footy as a KPD) and Crozier cost us little at the trade table so I don't mind those additions. Schache seemed more of a panicked trade but last game he looked a more natural forward than Boyd so has upside.

I'd say keeping players too long is more of an issue than who we've brought in. Roberts re-contracted while we've given Collins extra time on the list is a head scratcher, we re-rookied NMM & Lynch who are miles off and were already well behind guys we had on the list. Campbell I don't mind but Bevo clearly doesn't rate so is a waste of a list spot - why keep blokes that the coach won't play? Makes no sense.

[Mantis]

For some reason we recruited Trengove as a ruck/forward (he'd played his best footy as a KPD) and Crozier cost us little at the trade table so I don't mind those additions. Schache seemed more of a panicked trade but last game he looked a more natural forward than Boyd so has upside.

I'd say keeping players too long is more of an issue than who we've brought in. Roberts re-contracted while we've given Collins extra time on the list is a head scratcher, we re-rookied NMM & Lynch who are miles off and were already well behind guys we had on the list. Campbell I don't mind but Bevo clearly doesn't rate so is a waste of a list spot - why keep blokes that the coach won't play? Makes no sense.

Crozier is costing us 3 years & >$1mil when we already had Williams, Biggs, Suckling, JJ, Wood and rookies in Smith & Lynch as HB options. If Crozier is/ was worth the investment then get rid of Lynch & Smith and add in some different types, like a couple of small & quick pressure forwards which every club has heaps of, but we have none of.

Roberts re-signing was a massive cluster-*!*!*!*!, the need to sign him at about round 6 was completely *!*!*!*!ing absurd.

[Grantysghost]

Hire better communications staff. Team's performance rise and fall. My problem with our communications/media department who give up owns goals far too often. As posted above, we've got some good news stories which are starved of oxygen because I think we are inept in this regard. This article to me is another example, which as I've said, is a reflection on who gave Turtle the talking points.

In a past life I was a media manager for a while, have a limited media interest now. I know how the game is played with editors/producers and especially journos, how your meant to play the game and what good and bad performance is. Things in this area are worse than our on field performance to be honest. We sent out our most credible face to the media, and more importantly our members, and inextricably left him wide open thinking his credibility could cover the poor messaging. The media will have all filed this, and the likes of Barrett will weaponise it when it will hurt us the most. It was a poor idea backed up with poor talking points from people charged with this responsibility which has done nothing for the club or Turtle.

So I would've done things differently over the past year in getting ahead of Stringer & Alberti (particularly bad), explained Danny's move to a different club role more effectively, executed the draft video to what it could've been (which was potentially good) and in trying to get ahead of a possibly bad back half of the year I would've fine tuned the comm's strategy to the enth degree, worked out the talking points to a more palatable or easily digestible level and then, and only then sent Turtle out. What I'd do differently in the future, is I'd get new people. Own goals are the ones that hurt the most, and easily avoidable.

Makes a lot of sense, as others have said in isolation they're not too bad but collectively I see there is room for improvement and your points are valid. I think Adrian Ceddia is head of comms currently, I don't know alot about him.

[Grantysghost]

Common ground. Yes, the GWS prelim was the best game to attend ever. I don't think anyone is pissed at Bains, Kent, especially Turtle, Kent, PG, the board. And in this respect the footy department isn't in the firing line. One area in particular to me is a weak link, the comm's area. We need to fix it up. And I'll use a Tibetan Buddhist metaphor, tweaked a bit:

Imagine you're standing on the top of a mountain.
The club is generally very good off field. Like a bright blue sky.
Our comm's area are dark and threatening clouds covering the sky.
The sky is still bright blue (which we know), but because of these shit house comm's dark clouds not everyone can see it.
If those dark clouds get moved on, then we can stand on the top of the mountain seeing nothing but blue sky basking in sunshine.

We need to move the clouds on for the betterment of the club, not in spite of it.

Ha love the analogy. Nice work.

[Grantysghost]

Yes there is a number of positive things happening at the club, and feel free to start threads on that, and we will hear about the positive efforts on Tuesday night but challenging the words of Chris Grant in the article shouldn't be seen as being negative towards the club.
It certainly doesn't change my view or my commitment towards the club and I doubt it's an issue for anyone else either.
The vast majority who have contributed towards the discussions aren't playing the man just the words, and if that is being negative in other peoples eyes then so be it. Some are frustrated, very very few are negative.

Agree with most of what you say, however I do think there is a negative trend and a group pile on dynamic demonstrating vitriol towards the club in a lot of posts. Certainly if Granty is performing badly in his role it should be called out and discussed intelligently with facts above emotions. To say he should be sacked for an article that was pretty honest and to the point is bewildering to say the least. This is a great forum with intelligent contributors and agree most make alot of sense.

[Sedat]

For some reason we recruited Trengove as a ruck/forward (he'd played his best footy as a KPD) and Crozier cost us little at the trade table so I don't mind those additions. Schache seemed more of a panicked trade but last game he looked a more natural forward than Boyd so has upside.

I'd say keeping players too long is more of an issue than who we've brought in. Roberts re-contracted while we've given Collins extra time on the list is a head scratcher, we re-rookied NMM & Lynch who are miles off and were already well behind guys we had on the list. Campbell I don't mind but Bevo clearly doesn't rate so is a waste of a list spot - why keep blokes that the coach won't play? Makes no sense.
I reckon you'd get 99.9% agreement from the woof community on the bolded bit. It's not restricted to the Bevo/JMac years either - we've elevated off the rookie list such luminaries in the past as Andrew Hooper, Brodie Moles, James Mulligan, Matthew Panos. We held onto Josh Hill and turned a potential first round pick into a pick 50-odd 12 months later. We gave Ayce Cordy 7 years on the list despite never showing at any stage that he will be an AFL standard player. We held onto Eagleton, Hahn and Akermanis at least 1 year too long (Johnno and Westy as well, but understandable given the quality of their previous season). I'm sure there are more examples of our list spot generosity.

In short we haven't shown enough respect to the value of the list spot. And the last 2 years have been disastrous for differing reasons (extending contracts for fringe players in 2016, bringing in senior players of limited ability in areas where we already had list depth in 2017).

I think the explanations by Granty in the weekend article have been an attempt to tie everything up in a neat little bow in relation to our unexpected drop-off, when the reality is I don't think our senior management and footy dept thought this at any stage in the last 18 months (our list management actions and our previous messaging don't support Granty's comments). It's ok to say "we got it wrong" - I think we are a very forgiving supporter base.

From my untrained eye, we most likely underestimated the impact of rule changes to 3rd man up. We probably overestimated the depth of our midfield. We definitely overestimated that the impact of additions in 2017 of Cloke/Crammers/Wallis/Murphy would have on the team, we probably banked on incremental improvement of a young list that simply hasn't eventuated, we underestimated impact of the forward half turnover game and the midfield running requirements (and fell behind other clubs who have made list management decisions completely around these areas which we have not done in that time). And we clearly gave our players too much leg rope for their off-season in 2016 and not coming back 100% focused on 2017.

All of this is hindsight - I would sign off in a hearbeat on winning a flag the way we did and dropping off after that. But the players and the club don't have the luxury that we the supporters have. I can live with the above mistakes if we have a clear plan of attack to get back into contention to have another run at sustained success.

[The bulldog tragician]

I have posted along these lines before, but the idea that our flag was one fluky month of great footy - which underlies Chris Grant’s article - riles me. We would have been top 4 with that amount of wins in most seasons - an amount of wins achieved with a hideous injury toll. We were a finals team the year before who could easily have gone further but for 90 seconds of panicky footy.

The quality of the 2016 finals wins, and their circumstances, were of the highest quality - I believe Leon Cameron pointed out how dominant we were in most of those finals, and for most of our match against his team. So the thing I most have issue with is the idea that in the month or so after it, the coaching group sat around and said: phew, we nabbed that well ahead of time, batten down the hatches for a couple of ordinary years to come. And, as others have said, if that was their conclusion - that our list had “over-achieved” - it isn’t evident in the actions that followed.

I’m sure Chris & co did critically analyse the list and find flaws - I’d expect no less, that is their role - just as I’m sure Clarkson and his team didn’t sit back and say, another flag will just roll in if we do nothing. But I can’t believe they also didn’t think we were well placed for another crack in 2017, with another year in the group, further development from the boys who’d missed out at Footscray, the returns of Murph, Wally and Crameri, and the addition of Cloke.

[Bulldog4life]

Don’t leave BT, I enjoy reading your posts and wild hypotheticals.

I do too although his continued spin regarding Tom Boyd is driving my head in.;)

[Greystache]

I have posted along these lines before, but the idea that our flag was one fluky month of great footy - which underlies Chris Grant’s article - riles me. We would have been top 4 with that amount of wins in most seasons - an amount of wins achieved with a hideous injury toll. We were a finals team the year before who could easily have gone further but for 90 seconds of panicky footy.

We also won the exact same number of games (19) as Hawthorn the year before and Richmond the year after. Our percentage was almost identical to Richmond's also. Of course with our ability to massage the public narrative almost no one would be aware of those facts.

EDIT- In fact we won an extra game than Richmond (noting we also played 1 extra)

[Raw Toast]

This thread was an interesting read from my perspective. For what it's worth, I think good points are being made on both (general) sides of the debate:

1) Teams with a very young list generally struggle after winning the flag.

2) We don't seem to have planned for this struggle, or to have made great list management decisions since winning the flag.

3) For a side that was the youngest and least experienced in the whole comp every single week for the first 10 games this season, I'm pretty sure that 4 wins is higher than the mathematical models (based on past history!) would predict.

4) One of the reasons we've been so young and inexperienced, is a disturbingly high injury rate, and there seem to be reasons to be highly concerned about our medical management of players.

5) Our beloved club has been very, very successful over the last few years, compared to our history.

6) There has also clearly been some infighting, problems and very poor communication since the men won the premiership in 2016.

7) For mine Beveridge has been coaching well recently, and the team has had significantly more promising signs than in the 2nd half of 2017. We should've beaten Sydney, and have had some excellent quarters and halves in recent weeks against strong opposition.

8) Team selections have been puzzling at times, and we've had some really shit quarters in recent weeks against strong opposition.

9) I think Grant is trying to re-set expectations, and I think many of his points make sense.

10) I don't believe that Grant is accurately conveying how the club thought at the end of 2016, and he's not admitting that significant mistakes have been made.

As it stands now, I feel much more patient than a lot of supporters. We won it all, and have a very impressive group of still very young players with an excellent coach. The team is not ready to compete again right now, but as a student of history, I didn't expect them to be.

Hawthorn struggled significantly at times after winning the flag way ahead of schedule in 2008. They almost got rid of Clarkson a few times. The eventually formed a mighty team based on the core of the young group from 2008. Essendon also struggled significantly after the 'baby bombers' won in 1993, and also almost got rid of Sheedy. By 1999 they were again the best team in the comp, based on the group of youth, and should have won at least two flags during 1999-2001 (they only won one, which is pleasingly painful for them).

My point is that even with very good management, I still think we were more likely than not to be struggling right now. The loss of Murphy and Boyd is not only about them as players (and Boyd was incredibly important until last year - I think we didn't win a game without him in the side until 2017 under Beveridge). It's about them as experienced leaders around the club.

Clearly we need the club to start doing better at list-management and communication, and hopefully to resolve the various internal power struggles. But I also think we can work at being more patient as a supporter group, and to appreciate the good that has occured, while still being hungry for future success.

[azabob]

Gee RT you know how to take the fun out of a discussion with a well balanced and articulate response!

[GVGjr]

Agree with most of what you say, however I do think there is a negative trend and a group pile on dynamic demonstrating vitriol towards the club in a lot of posts. Certainly if Granty is performing badly in his role it should be called out and discussed intelligently with facts above emotions. To say he should be sacked for an article that was pretty honest and to the point is bewildering to say the least. This is a great forum with intelligent contributors and agree most make alot of sense.

I have no idea on how Grant is performing in his role, he seemed to be the tiebreaker in the Stinger trade between Dodoro and McCartney so I assume he is doing his job well but I don't really know.
Does it mean he is good at spinning stories? probably not based on this article and one after last years draft that appear to be way off the mark. Essentially I'm only challenging the content of the article and the action of the club at the trade and draft tables over the last 2 years and saying the stories don't match. Others can judge and debate if that's is the right assumption or not.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

For anyone in any doubt as to the effect of the message delivered by Grant and the words of Bevo pre and post match...Lyon, Brown and Roos were champing at the bit to question how misaligned the messages are.
Now they are always keen to look for a way to sink the boot in, but our poor media and communication strategy has clearly seen us offer our head to pop up over the parapet.

[G-Mo77]

For anyone in any doubt as to the effect of the message delivered by Grant and the words of Bevo pre and post match...Lyon, Brown and Roos were champing at the bit to question how misaligned the messages are.
Now they are always keen to look for a way to sink the boot in, but our poor media and communication strategy has clearly seen us offer our head to pop up over the parapet.

Exactly. One thing we're great at doing is giving the gutter trash some click bait.

[Remi Moses]

Some great contributions on here regardless of differing opinions
All I’ll say on the narrative is that we’re not the first and won’t be the last on changing midstream.
I think we’ve been a little to nice to players that we didn’t need to be.

[Remi Moses]

For anyone in any doubt as to the effect of the message delivered by Grant and the words of Bevo pre and post match...Lyon, Brown and Roos were champing at the bit to question how misaligned the messages are.
Now they are always keen to look for a way to sink the boot in, but our poor media and communication strategy has clearly seen us offer our head to pop up over the parapet.
Heard that tonight , yet they blow wind up the backside of chronically underperforming Brisbane , Carlton and others .
Sadly , I agree with what they said , but not some clubs who’ve been abysmal for some time get a pass

[Sedat]

For anyone in any doubt as to the effect of the message delivered by Grant and the words of Bevo pre and post match...Lyon, Brown and Roos were champing at the bit to question how misaligned the messages are.
Now they are always keen to look for a way to sink the boot in, but our poor media and communication strategy has clearly seen us offer our head to pop up over the parapet.
Lyon and Roos were bang on the money - our explanation over the weekend is deeply insulting to our outstanding 2015 and 2016 campaigns. It's galling enough when external people bag our premiership as some 4 week fluke, let alone when we do it ourselves.

[bulldogtragic]

For anyone in any doubt as to the effect of the message delivered by Grant and the words of Bevo pre and post match...Lyon, Brown and Roos were champing at the bit to question how misaligned the messages are.
Now they are always keen to look for a way to sink the boot in, but our poor media and communication strategy has clearly seen us offer our head to pop up over the parapet.

Unfortunately this was always going to happen with what we gave Turtle to say. The only thing we can do is to fix this area off field. I’m not confident that’s going to happen owing to the pattern of own goals. Hopefully we just won’t see them anymore that will show us all we’ve raised our game.

Hopefully this narrative runs out of steam ASAP.

[Ozza]

Not sure it had a heap of steam. Footy Classified had about 40 seconds on it, Chris Judd shut down Caro pretty quickly by talking some sense about how it was reasonable for the club to expect that it was at least a possibility that this decline could occur. And then they moved on.

Judd talks a bit too much sense for the Footy Class’ drama queens at times! He’s got them covered by panels.

[Sedat]

Judd talks a bit too much sense for the Footy Class’ drama queens at times! He’s got them covered by panels.
Juddy is hands down the best AFL media performer by a mile. Absolute gun.

[Happy Days]

Feel I need to point out that Judd is an alt-right Jordan Peterson-rhetoric spouting goon who can't stop making reference to "the great Donald Trump" every chance he gets, but sure.

[Sedat]

Feel I need to point out that Judd is an alt-right Jordan Peterson-rhetoric spouting goon who can't stop making reference to "the great Donald Trump" every chance he gets, but sure.
Had no idea of his political allegiences, but as a footy media performer he is measured, methodical, polished and reasoned. He is the antithesis of gutter scribes like Caro and Barrett, who revel in heresay, rumour and innuendo.

[Remi Moses]

Unlike Lloyd who just blurted out unsubstantiated claims that nobody gets along with one another .

[bornadog]

Feel I need to point out that Judd is an alt-right Jordan Peterson-rhetoric spouting goon who can't stop making reference to "the great Donald Trump" every chance he gets, but sure.

I can't stand Judd, and now I know why. He and Andrew Bogut should get together, they deserve each other.

[Greystache]

Feel I need to point out that Judd is an alt-right Jordan Peterson-rhetoric spouting goon who can't stop making reference to "the great Donald Trump" every chance he gets, but sure.

Save it for your next young Greens protest. This is a football forum.

[bornadog]

Save it for your next young Greens protest. This is a football forum.

Still says alot about the person with those views.

[Greystache]

Still says alot about the person with those views.

Garbage. In your opinion maybe, but the comments made about Judd were mindless cliches that most adults would find childish and have nothing to do with his football commentary. Either way if you want to discuss far left political hero worship take it to another forum.

[bornadog]

Garbage. In your opinion maybe, but the comments made about Judd were mindless cliches that most adults would find childish and have nothing to do with his football commentary. Either way if you want to discuss far left political hero worship take it to another forum.

Steady on.

What is childish is your comments.

[Sedat]

Not sure it had a heap of steam. Footy Classified had about 40 seconds on it, Chris Judd shut down Caro pretty quickly by talking some sense about how it was reasonable for the club to expect that it was at least a possibility that this decline could occur. And then they moved on.
Hoping to get the thread back on track...

The problem with the position we took is that it is now always there in the public domain, and the scribes can reference them as often as they want in the next few years. The momentum might drop off this week but it will be referenced continuously moving forward.

What we did this weekend was actually reinforce the external belief that we arsed a flag that otherwise wouldn't have been won without the week off, umpires, yada yada. The reality is that we were building for 2 years with outstanding form, and had we gotten over the line in the Talia-gate game we might well have made a similar run to a flag 12 months earlier - we were certainly in hot enough form in the 2nd half of 2015 to do so. And we were flag favourites in the 1st half of 2016 until injuries crippled us in the back half of the season, where we were still good enough to recover and reload for the greatest finals campaign any team has ever achieved. We win 19 games in a season and our own leaders, without prompting, offer the explanation that we supposedly arsed a flag with some 4 week Bradbury-esque week run - lol

And through our own words we have sullied what was a magnificent achievement. Really disappointed with Granty and also Bevo for his post-match comments on the weekend, and really disappointed with PG, our board and our communications dept for signing off on this convenient narrative (that our actions post 2016 completely contradict). One of the more spectacular own goals any club has kicked in a while, and to be honest it simply continues a trend of sub-par communications emanating from the club pretty much since the start of last season. We're just not firing on all cylinders with our messaging and communication externally, and it needs to be addressed IMO.

[Mofra]

Garbage. In your opinion maybe, but the comments made about Judd were mindless cliches that most adults would find childish and have nothing to do with his football commentary. Either way if you want to discuss far left political hero worship take it to another forum.
Assuming anyone who doesn't like Trump is into "far left political hero worship" is as bad or worse.

Back to us - changing our backline and replacing with inexperienced players is perhaps the most obvious indicator of decline in any football team. Without that knowledge of where your teammates will run, when to peel off and assist, when to stick to your opponent, etc you are forced to play it a little 'safer' than you otherwise would.
We're in the 2006-2007 Rocket phase where Eade played the defensive group together to forge that continuity.

Our F50 is suffering the same way - we don't have that instinctive knowledge of where each other player will run to and with our relative inexperience the decline was perhaps more 'inevitable' than it was 'possible'.

[Greystache]

Assuming anyone who doesn't like Trump is into "far left political hero worship" is as bad or worse.

I was referring to calling Judd a "goon" and "alt-right" because he didn't adequately hate the people he apparently is supposed to, and then someone agreeing that alone is basis enough to dislike him is exactly that. Either way it has no place on this forum.

[Happy Days]

I was referring to calling Judd a "goon" and "alt-right" because he didn't adequately hate the people he apparently is supposed to, and then someone agreeing that alone is basis enough to dislike him is exactly that. Either way it has no place on this forum.

Because the guy spouting off about SJW's and how "both sides are as toxic as each other" is clearly above mindless cliches.

Anyway message noted, I'll stick2sports unless it suits you from now on.

[bulldogtragic]

One (maybe) last point on topic. If the line given to Turtle was true, then he honestly believed during last trade weeks he would've been handing over to Carlton pick 23 this year in a very strong draft. I agreed at the time with decision to throw in the second rounder thinking that Rhylee would be well under say pick 32+ after compo we would slot into after a bounce up the ladder. We'd just then need to find some draft points elsewhere to supplement what Freo gave us back (4th in 2018).

But if we honestly believed we were handing over 2018 pick 23, that changes to complexion of his trade involvement late in trade weeks last year. It's hyper irresponsible to hand over a prized top 25 pick in a refresh/rebuild of our own list or put us in such a bad draft points position that we are going to have to move on Dahl or Wallis types hoping to get something back to cover Rhylee & Buku and maybe another one or two NGAs. I can only guess with some logic that we were not at all in fact considering giving Carlton pick 23, but a predicted pick passed 30. Which makes complete sense of what happened. But that sense of what happened is contrary to the line from the club, through Turtle. If that player at pick 23 turns out to be like who we pick traded with Carlton for last time, I think some are going to completely lose their shit.

[Remi Moses]

I must be a green lefty trump hater as well .
Lot of us ;)

[Bulldog4life]

I must be a green lefty trump hater as well .
Lot of us ;)

Me too :)

[Grantysghost]

Me too :)

Trump and conservative politics aren't exactly the same thing. Judd has his right to opinion like we all do.

[Remi Moses]

Me too :)

Lot of rampant lefties in his own party !
I’ll leave it there

[Remi Moses]

Trump and conservative politics aren't exactly the same thing. Judd has his right to opinion like we all do.

Judd was the only one on the panel with sense of perspective. Lloyd was spitting out what he’d “ been told”

[Eastdog]

Save it for your next young Greens protest. This is a football forum.

Yep football gets us away from the politics.

[GVGjr]

Lets reel it in thanks and get to the thread topic. Thanks

[FrediKanoute]

On topic - no one believes the bullsh*t that Turtle has sprouted. Nothing we did post the flag suggested we weren't gearing up for a repeat and a defense of the flag and to be honest a "dynasty". Comparisons to the Hawks were plenty. Pundits marvelled at our amazing recruiting and player development - Macca and Dalrymple could do no wrong. Our kids were amazing and there were expectations that they would mature and become better players. We recruited a KPF to top up and expected Suckers, Jong, Redders, Murphy and Wally to compliment our Premiership winning 22.

Fast forward 21 months and we are saying that this was expected? Something went wrong. probably a number of things. From players stagnating to others disappearing with recurring injuries that don't seem to heal. To a game plan that looks like something out of the 1950's to a team that went from an unsurpassed intensity to one that can barely focus on the game for more than a quarter.

Things don't just happen. Decisions and choices are made that lead to what we are seeing today. I'll freely admit I gave us a free pass last year. 2016 was that good. I'm not so generous with 2018, mainly because it kills me to see guys like the Bont, Boyd, Dahl etc not get close to their potential.

[mjp]

...mainly because it kills me to see guys like the Bont, Boyd, Dahl etc not get close to their potential.

Are you sure that Dahl isn't playing up to his potential?

[Mofra]

Are you sure that Dahl isn't playing up to his potential?
His kicking is far worse this year. He's struggling to reach 30m.
He was never a great kick but it's regressed rapidly this year.

[Twodogs]

Are you sure that Dahl isn't playing up to his potential?

Do you think he has regressed and is no longer capable of doing what he used to be able to do? I'm interested in your thoughts because you have more technical experience than I do. I can't recall a player going of Dahl's age and profile going backwards like this.

[ledge]

Wasn't that the reason Dahl wasn't picked in the draft due to his terrible disposal ?
Didn't he make a video the next year of his kicking to prove it had improved and he was now worth a go?
Maybe it's just his achillies heel , he just can't kick darts and tends to lob them.

[FrediKanoute]

Are you sure that Dahl isn't playing up to his potential?

Watch the 2016 final series and that is the level we should expect from dahlhaus

[Grantysghost]

Watch the 2016 final series and that is the level we should expect from dahlhaus

I think that's what Granty was talking about when he refers to players "One wood". Dalhaus has always been a scrapper, strength is commitment to the contest and decent quick handballs outside. He's never been a great kick but that hasn't stopped him being amazingly affective ala 2014-16. My feel is, after the flag he may have relaxed that intensity as he's now a premiership player and no longer working to make his name. Hopefully he can recapture the hunger that made him very influential. He embodies the culture of our team.

[Twodogs]

I think that's what Granty was talking about when he refers to players "One wood". Dalhaus has always been a scrapper, strength is commitment to the contest and decent quick handballs outside. He's never been a great kick but that hasn't stopped him being amazingly affective ala 2014-16. My feel is, after the flag he may have relaxed that intensity as he's now a premiership player and no longer working to make his name. Hopefully he can recapture the hunger that made him very influential. He embodies the culture of our team.


That's what I think too.

[Eastdog]

We need to switch on the Bulldog men of mayhem!

[Eastdog]

That's what I think too.

Yeah I would of thought that we would have been even more motivated still after winning but it looks like we were just content on finally winning again in 2016.

[Twodogs]

Yeah I would of thought that we would have been even more motivated still after winning but it looks like we were just content on finally winning again in 2016.


I can't understand why when you are in a position to lord it over the rest if the comp why would you pass it up?

[Eastdog]

I can't understand why when you are in a position to lord it over the rest if the comp why would you pass it up?

While it is fantastic to have the unique record of winning the premiership from the lowest position on the ladder it is equally dissapointing to have the record of not making the finals the year after winning the premiership.

[G-Mo77]

While it is fantastic to have the unique record of winning the premiership from the lowest position on the ladder it is equally dissapointing to have the record of not making the finals the year after winning the premiership.

I'll be glass half full for this one. We're making history!!!

[Twodogs]

While it is fantastic to have the unique record of winning the premiership from the lowest position on the ladder it is equally dissapointing to have the record of not making the finals the year after winning the premiership.


It's not a unique record, Hawthorn missed in 2009 and Richmond won flags in 1967 and 1969 but missed the finals in 1968 and 1970.

[Rocket Science]

MURPHY EXPLAINS THE ISSUES THE DOGS HAVE FACED PSYCHOLOGICALLY SINCE 2016
(https://www.sen.com.au/news/2018/06/17/murphy-explains-the-issues-the-dogs-have-faced-psychologically-since-2016/)
Former Western Bulldogs captain Bob Murphy has tried to put into words what has happened with his old side since they won the premiership in 2016.

The Dogs will likely miss finals for the second consecutive year as they sit 14th on the ladder and are dealing with a number of injury issues.

Murphy said he doesn’t think people outside of the club and their supporter base really understand what happened when the club jumped from seventh to premiers in the space of a month.

“With the hunger thing and the premiership hangover thing, I think what needs to be put into context is winning premierships at the Bulldogs was not really on the menu, it was such a foreign thing,” he told the AFL Nation pregame show.

“Whereas clubs like Hawthorn, Sydney and Geelong, clubs that win premierships, they climb mountains. They get to the mountain and think where’s the next mountain to climb?

"The premiership for the Bulldogs was like the moon and you’re trying to get there and all of a sudden the rocket goes a lot quicker than what it was going to go and you make it.

“This isn’t just the players, this is supporters and everyone involved in that football club was thinking, where to after that?”

“It’s a very complex thing of navigating success after that emotionally.

“The thing with the Dogs I think is that everyone needs to remove the analysis or the marking them against the finals series of 2016, because I don’t know if any side has reached that level of a month of football.”

Murphy believes changes are coming at the Dogs, but he isn’t quite sure that changing up the list is the issue.

“I start to get the sense there’ll be a fair bit of list change, but I think it’s more the psychological of when the club was in crisis and there was a sense of urgency because of how dire things were at the end of 2014,” he said.

“There was a sense of we have to get this absolutely right and that’s living on the edge. When I watch the Dogs at the moment, I don’t get the sense that they’re on the edge.”

The Dogs will take on North Melbourne next Saturday night at Etihad Stadium.

----

To distill this, our ex-skipper is effectively underlining a club weighed down by lack of professionalism and ambition.

That we don't expect to win flags, and we're incapable of handling it when we do.

It's quite gobsmacking to see it put so plainly, by someone who bleeds red, white and blue.

[bulldogtragic]

Hmmm.

[Twodogs]

What Bob says is pretty much what I think too. Lots of people didn't want to stop celebrating and focus on football by the time the 2017 season rolled around.

But has the hangover got anything to do with what's going wrong this season? It's crap skills, bad goal kicking and bizarro coaching tactics before we get to an 18 month old hangover as the current problems surely?

[bornadog]

What Bob says is pretty much what I think too. Lots of people didn't want to stop celebrating by the time the 2017 season rolled around.

But has the hangover got anything to do with what's going wrong this season? It's crap skills, bad goal kicking and bizarro coaching tactics before we get to an 18 month old hangover as the current problems surely?

This season is all about lack of experienced players in the side. No team, and I mean no team can keep winning games with average of 66 games per player.

[Twodogs]

This season is all about lack of experienced players in the side. No team, and I mean no team can keep winning games with average of 66 games per player.


That's a convenient out that I am getting sick of hearing. It's not the younger players who are letting us down. It's the lack of preperation or effort at times from senior players. If Dalhaus, Hunter and a few more senior players approached the game with the same professionalism as first year players like Richards, Naughton and Gowers we would have a few more in the win column.

[Rocket Science]

Granted there are some cold, hard practicalities that're knobbling our season, of the like any club would struggle to manage, but you could posit a lot of those 'structural' issues are the corollary of the sort of poor internal planning and execution that are emblematic of a 'shit' club.

It's one thing to hear it from the likes of John Elliot, Gaddy Lyon and Arseface Barrett, but gives renewed pause for thought when it comes from one of your beloved. We've long been accused of having a cosy culture. Murph's all but confirming it.

The Stringer exit is looking more like the first bristle on a big arse broom that's about to make its way through the club. Maybe. If certain powers that be are fair dinkum.

Who knows though, apparently we were expecting to fall off a cliff after (now officially) arsing a flag so just calm your farm everyone.

Good times.

[GVGjr]

Bob's got it wrong and it paints a picture that many people in today's society can't handle success and they come across as emotionally fragile. I get that Bob is more socially aware of the pressure and vulnerabilities young people face today than I am but in very simple terms I find his view on this a load of poppycock.

If players and officials have checked out emotionally and are asking themselves "whats next" as Bob is indicating then they need to find that spark elsewhere. Bob's views fly in the face of players leaving struggling clubs for success elsewhere. I think the vast majority are made of sterner stuff than Bob is indicating but if he is right then we need to weed out those who have climbed their Everest.

[Rocket Science]

Oh look, it's the same conversation about culture the shit-trucks are Princes Park are having.

Ex-Blue's 'culture' dig gets up Curnow's nose (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-06-17/exblues-culture-dig-gets-up-curnows-nose)

We're in good company.

The club wants people to stop comparing us now to us in 2016 but can you imagine ... just IMAGINE ... the daggers pointing at us now if we HADN'T pick-pocketed that flag.

[bulldogtragic]

Don't you hate it when you're in the middle of a rebuild and you're forced to win a premiership?

Just stuffs everything and everyone up.

[Eastdog]

That's a convenient out that I am getting sick of hearing. It's not the younger players who are letting us down. It's the lack of preperation or effort at times from senior players. If Dalhaus, Hunter and a few more senior players approached the game with the same professionalism as first year players like Richards, Naughton and Gowers we would have a few more in the win column.

I tend agree Twodogs with you on this. The younger players certainly are not letting us down this season.

[Greystache]

So in short we were striving to get near the top but never to the top, and having misjudged it in 2016 and accidently won, we want to make sure we don't find ourselves in that situation again unless we can't avoid it.

You couldn't sum up 63 of our past 64 years more perfectly.

[Twodogs]

63 and a half.

[mjp]

The Stringer exit is looking more like the first bristle on a big arse broom that's about to make its way through the club. Maybe. If certain powers that be are fair dinkum.



I am hearing that exact thing. Stringer isn't the end of the player exits...and the more I hear the more I think some of the other trades 'rumoured' by the likes of Barrett are 100% on the money and MAYBE that's why we (the club) have been so 'angry' about it all (media commentary)...because the comments are pretty much based in fact and it means the 'inner sanctum' is leaking like a sieve.

[bulldogtragic]

I am hearing that exact thing. Stringer isn't the end of the player exits...and the more I hear the more I think some of the other trades 'rumoured' by the likes of Barrett are 100% on the money and MAYBE that's why we (the club) have been so 'angry' about it all (media commentary)...because the comments are pretty much based in fact and it means the 'inner sanctum' is leaking like a sieve.

I refuse to read or listen to Barrett. Who is he saying we are looking at exiting?

[azabob]

I refuse to read or listen to Barrett. Who is he saying we are looking at exiting?

At about round 3 or 4 he said Dahlhaus was up for trade last trade period and that a number of player cliques within the club were not talking to each other and infighting.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

What a shambles.

You couldn't implode more if you tried.

Poor by Murphy IMO, it just reflects the fact that our club and its senior management (ie. Coaching group, leadership, Football ops) are embedded with a culture of underachieving, and the moment we actually succeed, we find a way to fail shortly after.

This is a far bigger problem than just underachieving players IMO.

[azabob]

My biggest concern is we haven’t heard boo from Peter Gordon. Normally he’d be on the front foot with this stuff.

However I am a hypocrite wanting action from Peter as I am one for letting the CEO and Co do their job.

Huge test for Amet Baines.

[Topdog]

Bob's got it wrong and it paints a picture that many people in today's society can't handle success and they come across as emotionally fragile. I get that Bob is more socially aware of the pressure and vulnerabilities young people face today than I am but in very simple terms I find his view on this a load of poppycock.

If players and officials have checked out emotionally and are asking themselves "whats next" as Bob is indicating then they need to find that spark elsewhere. Bob's views fly in the face of players leaving struggling clubs for success elsewhere. I think the vast majority are made of sterner stuff than Bob is indicating but if he is right then we need to weed out those who have climbed their Everest.

Genuinely from what you have witnessed over the last 18 months and some comments you have made about Dahl and a few others I'm shocked that you believe he is wrong. I wish he were but I sat there nodding in sad agreement when I was reading it.

[The Pie Man]

I am hearing that exact thing. Stringer isn't the end of the player exits...and the more I hear the more I think some of the other trades 'rumoured' by the likes of Barrett are 100% on the money and MAYBE that's why we (the club) have been so 'angry' about it all (media commentary)...because the comments are pretty much based in fact and it means the 'inner sanctum' is leaking like a sieve.

I believe the Dahl rumours - though Barrett kinda revealed his source for that story in an earlier edition of the AFL site sliding doors thing he does where he mentioned something about 3 list managers from other clubs confirmed he was discussed in the trade period. So TBF, not sure we can assume the inner sanctum is leaking.

They might be about other stuff, but perhaps not that.

Not surprised we're potentially looking at a clean out - I don't even mind now this year's fully down the toilet

[bornadog]

Not surprised we're potentially looking at a clean out - I don't even mind now this year's fully down the toilet

How many can one club get rid of? We are lacking experienced players and there are players like Honeychurch, Webb, that are not up to it?

[mjp]

How many can one club get rid of? We are lacking experienced players and there are players like Honeychurch, Webb, that are not up to it?

I think this is the very point that has us all so concerned. The deficiencies in some players are clear and they are not and will not be impact players at the top level. Others who have shown they CAN be are talked about it as behavioural ‘issues’ and on the trade block...plus we have approximately 30 tall defenders and 0 mids on a list of 45....

So what happens next?

[GVGjr]

Genuinely from what you have witnessed over the last 18 months and some comments you have made about Dahl and a few others I'm shocked that you believe he is wrong. I wish he were but I sat there nodding in sad agreement when I was reading it.

I've certainly challenged our performances and approach since the flag but in the main I had attributed much of that to a few players who have been distracted and a footy department that never addressed the challenges except for Stringer. Murphy however, paints a very different picture and one that basically says our players and the footy department are fragile souls that can't handle success and certainly weren't ready for it.

This is where I hope he is wrong because I'd hate to think we have a core of players that need constant reassurance that they are doing a good job but who also shirk expectations being placed on them. I'd hate to think we have players who can't cop criticism but need people to accept that some days they will work hard and on others they won't. I could go on.

We won in 2016 because we worked harder than other clubs which gave us a competitive advantage. We haven't really got that edge back which is why I'm challenging Bobs view. Most of our issues can be resolved by everyone working a bit harder not by lowering the bar on expectations on them.

[bornadog]

I've certainly challenged our performances and approach since the flag but in the main I had attributed much of that to a few players who have been distracted and a footy department that never addressed the challenges except for Stringer. Murphy however, paints a very different picture and one that basically says our players and the footy department are fragile souls that can't handle success and certainly weren't ready for it.

This is where I hope he is wrong because I'd hate to think we have a core of players that need constant reassurance that they are doing a good job but who also shirk expectations being placed on them. I'd hate to think we have players who can't cop criticism but need people to accept that some days they will work hard and on others they won't. I could go on.

We won in 2016 because we worked harder than other clubs which gave us a competitive advantage. We haven't really got that edge back which is why I'm challenging Bobs view. Most of our issues can be resolved by everyone working a bit harder not by lowering the bar on expectations on them.

Totally agree with what you have said.

When Bevo started at the club, a friend was at a BBQ at his place around the start of 2015. Bevo thought looking at the list it will take at least 3 years before we are challenging for the premiership. Perhaps 2016 came sooner than we thought.

Bob always describes life very differently that what most of us do, and the way he described our unexpected win can be interpreted in many ways.

I agree we need to work harder, as I for one am not satisfied with just one recent premiership, I want to see a dynasty.

The players surely must think the same way, as after all why are they playing AFL.

[GVGjr]

Totally agree with what you have said.

When Bevo started at the club, a friend was at a BBQ at his place around the start of 2015. Bevo thought looking at the list it will take at least 3 years before we are challenging for the premiership. Perhaps 2016 came sooner than we thought.

Bob always describes life very differently that what most of us do, and the way he described our unexpected win can be interrupted in many ways.

I agree we need to work harder, as I for one am not satisfied with just one recent premiership, I want to see a dynasty.

The players surely must think the same way, as after all why are they playing AFL.

Bevo was very dirty that our game plan was leaked to Adelaide in 2015 because had we won that game we were right in contention that year as well as 2016 so I think he got it a bit wrong. We should have been contenders last year and this year as well. That would have been 4 years as genuine contenders which was how good our list was.

If it came earlier than expected then how far are we off the mark now?

First Grant and now Murphy have essentially indicated we have fluked it in 2016 and I challenge that. Both of them also indicate a hangover in 2017 which was denied by the club through the season and both indicate there will be a bit of a clean out at the end of the season which begs the question why we made minimal changes at the end of 2017? Murphy has also gone a step further indicating that we weren't ready for success in 2016 and it appears we have a soft playing list and perhaps footy department.

I've said this previously, but I'd prefer us to just say we aren't playing well and we will reset the playing list at the end of the year.
There is nothing wrong in delivering an honest appraisal of where we are currently at. It won't change the vast majority of us for fully supporting the club. Murphy's spin on a fragile club to me is an embarrassing explanation.

[Happy Days]

So in short we were striving to get near the top but never to the top, and having misjudged it in 2016 and accidently won, we want to make sure we don't find ourselves in that situation again unless we can't avoid it.

You couldn't sum up 63 of our past 64 years more perfectly.

You're misreading it - we are trying to be pathetic and 2016 was actually the mistake. Bravo to the club to capitalising on our strong brand and getting us back to where we should be.

Because if it's no one's fault it logically can't be bad.

[Happy Days]

Our strawman-style condescending take on public relations this year is easily more annoying than the actual on-field performance. I don't need to be told that Crozier was better than Bont on the weekend. I don't need to be told that we "accidentally" won a flag in spite of our tragic history. I don't need to be told that the media are out to get us. Because none of it is true and none of it makes me feel any form of engagement towards the club. For a club that prides itself on its true believers and the loyalty of its supporter base they don't seem to mind totally taking the piss out of them.

How about someone tell me why we suck and why most of the playing group has gone backwards and why it doesn't seem to be anyone's fault that any of this has happened?

[Sedat]

Bevo was very dirty that our game plan was leaked to Adelaide in 2015 because had we won that game we were right in contention that year as well as 2016 so I think he got it a bit wrong. We should have been contenders last year and this year as well. That would have been 4 years as genuine contenders which was how good our list was.

If it came earlier than expected then how far are we off the mark now?

First Grant and now Murphy have essentially indicated we have fluked it in 2016 and I challenge that. Both of them also indicate a hangover in 2017 which was denied by the club through the season and both indicate there will be a bit of a clean out at the end of the season which begs the question why we made minimal changes at the end of 2017? Murphy has also gone a step further indicating that we weren't ready for success in 2016 and it appears we have a soft playing list and perhaps footy department.

I've said this previously, but I'd prefer us to just say we aren't playing well and we will reset the playing list at the end of the year.
There is nothing wrong in delivering an honest appraisal of where we are currently at. It won't change the vast majority of us for fully supporting the club. Murphy's spin on a fragile club to me is an embarrassing explanation.
I'm actually heartily sick and tired of our own club legends pissing on our premiership. It's bad enough when ignorant deadshits on BF do it, let alone 300 game champions and revered figures of our club.

We appear to be so insecure and pathetic that we would rather diminish and talk down one of the greatest achiecements by any team in 120 years of VFL/AFL finals history than to admit we made mistakes in the aftermath. That premiership was AMAZING - it is the blueprint that has underpinned Richmond's flag success and game plan, and also inspired another dozen copycats. And our own people are essentially calling it a fluke that wasn't supposed to happen.

Our club messaging is complete and utter shit. Fix it up FFS.

[The bulldog tragician]

Our strawman-style condescending take on public relations this year is easily more annoying than the actual on-field performance. I don't need to be told that Crozier was better than Bont on the weekend. I don't need to be told that we "accidentally" won a flag in spite of our tragic history. I don't need to be told that the media are out to get us. Because none of it is true and none of it makes me feel any form of engagement towards the club. For a club that prides itself on its true believers and the loyalty of its supporter base they don't seem to mind totally taking the piss out of them.

How about someone tell me why we suck and why most of the playing group has gone backwards and why it doesn't seem to be anyone's fault that any of this has happened?

I have mentioned elsewhere that the club posted a not so funny gif of us as being left behind on the starting blocks in the first qtr of Thurs night. I don’t mind humour but this was totally out of whack with how we were feeling seeing a disorganised and lethargic team that looked like we’d suffer a 100 point defeat in front of a prime time audience. A social media fail.

[The bulldog tragician]

I'm actually heartily sick and tired of our own club legends pissing on our premiership. It's bad enough when ignorant deadshits on BF do it, let alone 300 game champions and revered figures of our club.

We appear to be so insecure and pathetic that we would rather diminish and talk down one of the greatest achiecements by any team in 120 years of VFL/AFL finals history than to admit we made mistakes in the aftermath. That premiership was AMAZING - it is the blueprint that has underpinned Richmond's flag success and game plan, and also inspired another dozen copycats. And our own people are essentially calling it a fluke that wasn't supposed to happen.

Our club messaging is complete and utter shit. Fix it up FFS.

Completely agree.its like Danny from Droop St has taken over Comms, talking our achievement down with glee.

[GVGjr]

I'm actually heartily sick and tired of our own club legends pissing on our premiership. It's bad enough when ignorant deadshits on BF do it, let alone 300 game champions and revered figures of our club.

We appear to be so insecure and pathetic that we would rather diminish and talk down one of the greatest achiecements by any team in 120 years of VFL/AFL finals history than to admit we made mistakes in the aftermath. That premiership was AMAZING - it is the blueprint that has underpinned Richmond's flag success and game plan, and also inspired another dozen copycats. And our own people are essentially calling it a fluke that wasn't supposed to happen.

Our club messaging is complete and utter shit. Fix it up FFS.

If we were well entrenched in the top 8 now neither Grant or Murphy would be offering up that our success in 2016 was a fluke or that it happened earlier than expected in fact they would probably take to task anyone in the media suggesting it.
It's being offered up now to explain why we have fallen off a cliff in the last 2 seasons and it doesn't need to happen. We were simply on top of our game in 2015 and 2016 and have been off our game since. All we need to do is explain what we will be doing to return us back into contenders in 2019 and 2020.

There is no need to diminish our result in 2016 because it wasn't a fluke, it didn't come earlier than expected because it was a combination of the hardest working team in the competition and a coach that that got the jump on the opposition that won it for us.

For years we have taken John Elliot to task for referring to us as a tragic club but now, in my opinion, we have our own club legends effectively diminishing our achievements. Much like the views of Elliot I don't agree with it.

[bulldogtragic]

I'm actually heartily sick and tired of our own club legends pissing on our premiership. It's bad enough when ignorant deadshits on BF do it, let alone 300 game champions and revered figures of our club.

We appear to be so insecure and pathetic that we would rather diminish and talk down one of the greatest achiecements by any team in 120 years of VFL/AFL finals history than to admit we made mistakes in the aftermath. That premiership was AMAZING - it is the blueprint that has underpinned Richmond's flag success and game plan, and also inspired another dozen copycats. And our own people are essentially calling it a fluke that wasn't supposed to happen.

Our club messaging is complete and utter shit. Fix it up FFS.

If the 'strategic' communications department at the club isn't overhauled ASAP, then our free agent/trading period will be a flaming disaster for fans, members and the club generally if there's going to be a list overhaul. They've burned down the premiership and the 22 that played that day, and the 2016 list generally. What's next?

[jeemak]

I'm actually heartily sick and tired of our own club legends pissing on our premiership. It's bad enough when ignorant deadshits on BF do it, let alone 300 game champions and revered figures of our club.

We appear to be so insecure and pathetic that we would rather diminish and talk down one of the greatest achiecements by any team in 120 years of VFL/AFL finals history than to admit we made mistakes in the aftermath. That premiership was AMAZING - it is the blueprint that has underpinned Richmond's flag success and game plan, and also inspired another dozen copycats. And our own people are essentially calling it a fluke that wasn't supposed to happen.

Our club messaging is complete and utter shit. Fix it up FFS.

It kind of reminds me of Cameron Ling joining in on the shitcanning of himself for having red hair. Basic fodder that could easily be retorted against with some stated facts and a bit of mongrel.

The silence from the president and CEO is understandable (given the new nature of this senior leadership team), to a point however, I think they are not far away from being in a position to announce a review into the football department - given the latter has now had some time see the club up close and with fresh eyes.

Until they do, I want the club to tighten up its media strategy, talk up the younger players and prioritise the extension of Bontempelli's contract.

[bornadog]

Bevo was very dirty that our game plan was leaked to Adelaide in 2015 because had we won that game we were right in contention that year as well as 2016 so I think he got it a bit wrong. We should have been contenders last year and this year as well. That would have been 4 years as genuine contenders which was how good our list was.

Bevo's comments were at the start of 2015 when he looked at a very young team on paper. Once we started winning in 2015, he was pretty happy with the team and thought we could go all the way.





First Grant and now Murphy have essentially indicated we have fluked it in 2016.

I don't believe anyone at the club thinks we FLUKED it - if they do then they have the wrong attitude. I for one did not read that in Grant's or Bob's articles. We were one of the youngest teams to win a Grand Final, so in a way it was unexpected to a certain extent.

About 2016 people keep talking about an amazing 4 weeks in the finals - which it was, but never about the 7 games we lost. Of those 7 games we were only soundly beaten in one match (Geelong at Etihad). In the other 6 we were more than competitive losing several by around a goal but none more than 3 or 4.

[GVGjr]

I don't believe anyone at the club thinks we FLUKED it - if they do then they have the wrong attitude. I for one did not read that in Grant's or Bob's articles. We were one of the youngest teams to win a Grand Final, so in a way it was unexpected to a certain extent.

About 2016 people keep talking about an amazing 4 weeks in the finals - which it was, but never about the 7 games we lost. Of those 7 games we were only soundly beaten in one match (Geelong at Etihad). In the other 6 we were more than competitive losing several by around a goal but none more than 3 or 4.

If we weren't ready for it how did we win it? Was it Stephen Bradbury style?
We were an almost excellent team in 2015 and 2016. To diminish the results as a way of explaining where we are now isn't right

[bornadog]

If we weren't ready for it how did we win it? Was it Stephen Bradbury style?
We were an almost excellent team in 2015 and 2016. To diminish the results as a way of explaining where we are now isn't right

Who said we weren't ready for it?

[Sedat]

Who said we weren't ready for it?
Bob and Granty, even Bevo. Which is total horse shit of course.

[bornadog]

Bob and Granty, even Bevo. Which is total horse shit of course.

I don't believe that is what they said. You need to re-read

[Twodogs]

I wonder what Sydney are thinking watching all this?

[G-Mo77]

I wonder what Sydney are thinking watching all this?

They're to busy complaining about free kicks.

[Mofra]

If we weren't ready for it how did we win it? Was it Stephen Bradbury style?
We were an almost excellent team in 2015 and 2016. To diminish the results as a way of explaining where we are now isn't right
That might be your interpretation of Murphy's comments, it certainly isn't mine.

To me Bob is saying we haven't handled the post GF success well and he's 100% correct, we clearly haven't.

[bornadog]

That might be your interpretation of Murphy's comments, it certainly isn't mine.

To me Bob is saying we haven't handled the post GF success well and he's 100% correct, we clearly haven't.

This^^^

and Grant was saying a similar thing.

We are a young team and when experienced players go down, we don't have experience to come back in.

As for players playing up off field, and being silly - well hasn't this happened for ever in any sport

[Daughter of the West]

That might be your interpretation of Murphy's comments, it certainly isn't mine.

To me Bob is saying we haven't handled the post GF success well and he's 100% correct, we clearly haven't.

He's right, but it's also a really poor excuse.

How long was it before Sydney broke the drought? Now a regular feature in finals.

How long was it before Geelong broke the drought? Also now a regular feature in finals.

Instead of dwelling in this, "Poor us, we're not used to winning, we didn't know (and still don't) know what to do with ourselves" rubbish narrative, everyone should be sat down and have a good hard look at how the hell the club is operating. Review Sydney. Review Geelong. What have they done that is so dramatically different?

AND STOP WITH THE F**KING EXCUSES. If things need to change, change it. If people need to be brought down a peg or two, so be it. No passengers.

[bulldogtragic]

Amen Sister. Amen.

[Twodogs]

He's right, but it's also a really poor excuse.

How long was it before Sydney broke the drought? Now a regular feature in finals.

How long was it before Geelong broke the drought? Also now a regular feature in finals.

Instead of dwelling in this, "Poor us, we're not used to winning, we didn't know (and still don't) know what to do with ourselves" rubbish narrative, everyone should be sat down and have a good hard look at how the hell the club is operating. Review Sydney. Review Geelong. What have they done that is so dramatically different?

AND STOP WITH THE F**KING EXCUSES. If things need to change, change it. If people need to be brought down a peg or two, so be it. No passengers.

Yep, I hate excuses.

[Sedat]

To me Bob is saying we haven't handled the post GF success well and he's 100% correct, we clearly haven't.
Every rational Bulldogs supporter would be in agreement with this. But that is light years away from the Bob/Granty/Bevo comments, which are in effect denigrading our premiership success by stating we weren't ready to win it (wrong, we won it), it was something of a lucky win (also wrong, 19 wins in a season following an excellent previous season) and the big fall since was all part of the master plan (completely wrong, their actions on list management post GF are there for all to see).

For mine, they would rather talk down the wonderful achievement of the premiership than admit to the many mistakes they have made since. And to me that is appalling communication and very disrespectful to the footy club and its supporters.

[Mofra]

He's right, but it's also a really poor excuse.

How long was it before Sydney broke the drought? Now a regular feature in finals.

How long was it before Geelong broke the drought? Also now a regular feature in finals.

Instead of dwelling in this, "Poor us, we're not used to winning, we didn't know (and still don't) know what to do with ourselves" rubbish narrative, everyone should be sat down and have a good hard look at how the hell the club is operating. Review Sydney. Review Geelong. What have they done that is so dramatically different?

AND STOP WITH THE F**KING EXCUSES. If things need to change, change it. If people need to be brought down a peg or two, so be it. No passengers.
Sydney made a Grand Final or two before they actually did break the drought and had a decade or so of changing the culture prior to the breakthough.
Ditto Geelong.

We had two attempts to changing the culture as far as I can tell in the 90s and 2000s - once under Terry Wallace, once under Rodney Eade. Both phases seemed to present a radical shift.

The hope is Bevo is laying the foundations for sustained success and right now we're about to have a broom sweep through all areas of the club (some has occurred already) given we know what we now know.

Given Bevo's pedigree and the club's experience post-2016 we're in a better place to do this than at any time in living memory. We Clearly have work to do in this space if the past 18 months have been any guide.

[Twodogs]

Part of me wonders if Bob would be talking down what an acheivment winning in 2016 was if he had of played in the premiership side himself.

Then again if all my teammates had won a flag and I'd missed out I'd be a little bit peeved that a large bunch of them decided to take the next year off to celebrate instead of doing everything they could to strike while the iron was hot.

[bornadog]

Part of me wonders if Bob would be talking down what an achievement winning in 2016 was if he had of played in the premiership side himself.

Then again if all my teammates had won a flag and I'd missed out I'd be a little bit peeved that a large bunch of them decided to take the next year off to celebrate instead of doing everything they could to strike while the iron was hot.


Every rational Bulldogs supporter would be in agreement with this. But that is light years away from the Bob/Granty/Bevo comments, which are in effect denigrading our premiership success by stating we weren't ready to win it (wrong, we won it), it was something of a lucky win (also wrong, 19 wins in a season following an excellent previous season) and the big fall since was all part of the master plan (completely wrong, their actions on list management post GF are there for all to see).

For mine, they would rather talk down the wonderful achievement of the premiership than admit to the many mistakes they have made since. And to me that is appalling communication and very disrespectful to the footy club and its supporters.

Can you point to me in the articles where they do this?

[Ghost Dog]

Bob and Granty, even Bevo. Which is total horse shit of course.

We weren't ready for the aftermath. That's clear.

[Ghost Dog]

He's right, but it's also a really poor excuse.

How long was it before Sydney broke the drought? Now a regular feature in finals.

How long was it before Geelong broke the drought? Also now a regular feature in finals.

Instead of dwelling in this, "Poor us, we're not used to winning, we didn't know (and still don't) know what to do with ourselves" rubbish narrative, everyone should be sat down and have a good hard look at how the hell the club is operating. Review Sydney. Review Geelong. What have they done that is so dramatically different?

AND STOP WITH THE F**KING EXCUSES. If things need to change, change it. If people need to be brought down a peg or two, so be it. No passengers.

Great post. Tired of this bollocks. Be competitive.

[Sedat]

Can you point to me in the articles where they do this?
Honestly BAD, it's draining watching you nick-picking everything to the nth degree simply to tow the party line. The crux of Granty, Bevo and Bob's comments have been widely reported and are there for all to see. You're clearly absolutely delighted with our external communication. Some of us aren't.

[Mofra]

Honestly BAD, it's draining watching you nick-picking everything to the nth degree simply to tow the party line. The crux of Granty, Bevo and Bob's comments have been widely reported and are there for all to see. You're clearly absolutely delighted with our external communication. Some of us aren't.
You're arguing against a point BAD hasn't made.

Bob has discussed what has occurred after we won the flag. That in no way diminishes winning the damn thing in the first place.
I do think we've struggled in 2017 and 2018, and that in no way means anyone is 'delighted with our external communication'.

[bornadog]

Honestly BAD, it's draining watching you nick-picking everything to the nth degree simply to tow the party line. The crux of Granty, Bevo and Bob's comments have been widely reported and are there for all to see. You're clearly absolutely delighted with our external communication. Some of us aren't.

You obviously can't prove your point.

[bornadog]

You're arguing against a point BAD hasn't made.

Bob has discussed what has occurred after we won the flag. That in no way diminishes winning the damn thing in the first place.
I do think we've struggled in 2017 and 2018, and that in no way means anyone is 'delighted with our external communication'.

Cheers Mofra, that is what I am arguing (obviously not very well)

[Sedat]

Bob has discussed what has occurred after we won the flag. That in no way diminishes winning the damn thing in the first place.
I do think we've struggled in 2017 and 2018, and that in no way means anyone is 'delighted with our external communication'.
Our head of football and our senior coach have both made assertions about how lucky and unexpected our flag was and that the subsequent drop-off was all part of some mystical plan, when their direct actions post-GF with regard to list management completely contradict this narrative (I'm not going to go over these again). Bob has also expressed a view about how massive the achievement was in comparison to other clubs and that we had nowhere else to go but down - again, the list management and footy dept decisions contradict this view as well.

Dale Morris on 'On the Mark' last night could not have been more definitive and impressive in refuting all of that. He said the club trained and prepared to their optimum after the flag and were absolutely ready for battle at the start of 2017, and that he is still very much of the mindset that another premiership is in his grasp. Zaine Cordy was also interviewed on radio completely refuting the supposed premiership hangover and lack of preparation in the 2016 off-season. So we have current players openly contradicting our constructed narrative. It's a communications mess IMO.

I'm going to sign off on this thread.

[Topdog]

That might be your interpretation of Murphy's comments, it certainly isn't mine.

To me Bob is saying we haven't handled the post GF success well and he's 100% correct, we clearly haven't.

I realise im late to the party but yes that is how I read it and why I was surprised Gary didnt agree.

[GVGjr]

I realise im late to the party but yes that is how I read it and why I was surprised Gary didnt agree.

As I stated previously it his reasons for why we failed to live up to expectation and most importantly our ability that I disagree with

[bulldogtragic]

I was watching an interview with Draymond Green yesterday. He's obviously got three championship rings. He said of the first one, (something like) it's the world against us, against me, and we have to attack and be aggressive every second to beat them all. Then, (something like) backing it up is by far the hardest. You want to defend your championship, and defend against the every other team wanting to bring you down. So you defend, and you can forget to attack and be aggressive as a team. So not do the things that won the championship. So you re focus, do the things that made you successful like aggression and attack, and with the talent that's there you can win a second and third.

I found it really interesting just at face value. Then I was thinking about this thread, leaving our internal matters internal and giving something to our members and fans that's more palatable. Imagine if the first comments we made were like paraphrasing Draymond's above, in that we found ourselves just defending the flag and the other 17 teams and in the heat of battle of defending, we just didn't attack enough and weren't aggressive enough. It's a common occurrence in sport, especially for a young team. See Hawthorn in 2008. But we have learned from it, we have addressed it in the draft and trade period last year, and although there's been a drop off this year, we've got games into a lot of kids, who are hungry to join the likes of Bonts & Macrae in lifting the next premiership cup.

[Twodogs]

I was watching an interview with Draymond Green yesterday. He's obviously got three championship rings. He said of the first one, (something like) it's the world against us, against me, and we have to attack and be aggressive every second to beat them all. Then, (something like) backing it up is by far the hardest. You want to defend your championship, and defend against the every other team wanting to bring you down. So you defend, and you can forget to attack and be aggressive as a team. So not do the things that won the championship. So you re focus, do the things that made you successful like aggression and attack, and with the talent that's there you can win a second and third.

I found it really interesting just at face value. Then I was thinking about this thread, leaving our internal matters internal and giving something to our members and fans that's more palatable. Imagine if the first comments we made were like paraphrasing Draymond's above, in that we found ourselves just defending the flag and the other 17 teams and in the heat of battle of defending, we just didn't attack enough and weren't aggressive enough. It's a common occurrence in sport, especially for a young team. See Hawthorn in 2008. But we have learned from it, we have addressed it in the draft and trade period last year, and although there's been a drop off this year, we've got games into a lot of kids, who are hungry to join the likes of Bonts & Macrae in lifting the next premiership cup.

Obviously. Yeah, of course he has. All three.


What sport?

[bulldogtragic]

obviously. Yeah, of course he has. All three.


What sport?

nba.

If this was our response, I doubt this thread would exist.

[Twodogs]

nba.

If this was our response, I doubt this thread would exist.

A sport I really grew to like over the last season.

[Happy Days]

I was watching an interview with Draymond Green yesterday. He's obviously got three championship rings. He said of the first one, (something like) it's the world against us, against me, and we have to attack and be aggressive every second to beat them all. Then, (something like) backing it up is by far the hardest. You want to defend your championship, and defend against the every other team wanting to bring you down. So you defend, and you can forget to attack and be aggressive as a team. So not do the things that won the championship. So you re focus, do the things that made you successful like aggression and attack, and with the talent that's there you can win a second and third.

I found it really interesting just at face value. Then I was thinking about this thread, leaving our internal matters internal and giving something to our members and fans that's more palatable. Imagine if the first comments we made were like paraphrasing Draymond's above, in that we found ourselves just defending the flag and the other 17 teams and in the heat of battle of defending, we just didn't attack enough and weren't aggressive enough. It's a common occurrence in sport, especially for a young team. See Hawthorn in 2008. But we have learned from it, we have addressed it in the draft and trade period last year, and although there's been a drop off this year, we've got games into a lot of kids, who are hungry to join the likes of Bonts & Macrae in lifting the next premiership cup.

I mean, he has the benefit of playing with 2 of the top 10 players of all time in a sport where only 5 guys matter, but sure.

Not sure this holds BT.

[AndrewP6]

I mean, he has the benefit of playing with 2 of the top 10 players of all time in a sport where only 5 guys matter, but sure.

Not sure this holds BT.

It doesn't hold that only 5 guys matter in basketball. The best teams can go right down the bench.

[comrade]

It doesn't hold that only 5 guys matter in basketball. The best teams can go right down the bench.

Maybe in yesteryear, but the rise of the super teams has changed that.

And don't forget, the team that lost in the Finals was pretty much solely reliant on one man. If LeBron wasn't on the Cavs, they would have been a lottery team.

[bulldogtragic]

I mean, he has the benefit of playing with 2 of the top 10 players of all time in a sport where only 5 guys matter, but sure.

Not sure this holds BT.

Perhaps if we cited him, but I’m more interested in the spin that can be had with the generic message/comments. But given what Grant was given to say (this threads reason to exist), or a generic twist of our situation, I’d prefer the gentle spin/twist. I’m not trying to parallel him or sports, but rather a simple message with a bit of spin like Draymond, would’ve been a whole lot better for our messaging.

[Twodogs]

Maybe in yesteryear, but the rise of the super teams has changed that.

And don't forget, the team that lost in the Finals was pretty much solely reliant on one man. If LeBron wasn't on the Cavs, they would have been a lottery team.

LeBron must be the most competitive bastard on the face of the earth. His games right through the play offs were increasingly incredible.