Welcome to the Bulldogs: Laitham Vandermeer

[hujsh]

Pick 37. Seems a bolter but an overage defender who adds pace and skill which we all wish to see more of.

[hujsh]

Article here about him:
https://www.sheppnews.com.au/@sport/2018/11/21/332116/sport-football1111-afl-draft-hope-laitham-vandermeer

AFL Draft hope - Laitham Vandermeer
Laitham Vandermeer is proof a top-age year at the Murray Bushrangers can be the added boost needed to press for a spot on an AFL list.


Vandermeer returned alongside Nathalia’s Tom Boyd for another year in the system this year and was entirely dedicated to his time at the Murray Bushrangers.


In contrast to last year, while he was in Year 12, Vandermeer spent most of his weekends playing football for his school side at Xavier College.


The silky ball user said it was an enjoyable year and he was intent on ironing out any problems he saw in his own game.


‘‘It was good, I hadn’t played that much TAC Cup because I played school footy, so to play with the same boys each week (at the Bushies) was good,’’ Vandermeer said.


‘‘(My aim was) just mainly to improve my weaknesses, that was my main goal (which was) probably just my contested ball.
‘‘I maintained my strength and improved that.’’


Vandermeer’s improvements had the Mooroopna talent included in the Young Guns match that pitted the best of the TAC Cup against VFL players before being named in the coveted Victorian Country under-18 side.


He rebounded superbly off half-back in the first match of the AFL Under-18 Championships but, while the experience was beneficial to his development, an injury in the final game ended his season.


‘‘In the last game of the nationals against WA I just got a sling tackle, I don’t remember much, but I broke the collarbone,’’ Vandermeer said.


‘‘It was a surreal experience, I didn’t get the chance last year, so playing against all the best footballers helped improve my game.’’


It was the second time he had broken the collarbone after previously injuring the same one, but a different part of it in 2013.


‘‘I just tried to maintain my recovery because I’d been through it before, so I knew what to do,’’ Vandermeer said.


But he made a major impact in the first half of the season and after working full-time at Drives For Industry in Shepparton this year, Vandermeer will be eagerly listening to each AFL club’s pick.

[GVGjr]

I've mentioned him a couple of times. He didn't get picked up last year but has done well this year.
He will add some run to our backline.

I'm quite happy with his selection at this point of the draft

[choconmientay]

From the club website: AFL Draft hope - Laitham Vandermeer (http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2018-11-23/afl-draft-pick-37-laitham-vandermeer)
https://s.afl.com.au/staticfile/Samples/595881-tlslargeportrait.jpg

[Twodogs]

From the club website: AFL Draft hope - Laitham Vandermeer (http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2018-11-23/afl-draft-pick-37-laitham-vandermeer)
https://s.afl.com.au/staticfile/Samples/595881-tlslargeportrait.jpg

Is it just me or is the next thing that happens after this picture us taken is Laitham is done for dropping the ball?

[hujsh]

Rather short. Is there room for him and Dureya in the same side (who was also low 180s right?)

[divvydan]

He is a little short but has a good leap so should be competitive on midsizers.

[bornadog]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DsptVZIU8AA6k5b.jpg

[Mofra]

Rather short. Is there room for him and Dureya in the same side (who was also low 180s right?)
Yes - in a couple of years. We'll see how he develops. Speed & skill is certainly what we need.

[Ghost Dog]

Rather short. Is there room for him and Dureya in the same side (who was also low 180s right?)

All things are relative. Not short with Caleb down there. :)

[Greystache]

Rather short. Is there room for him and Dureya in the same side (who was also low 180s right?)

He's got a massive vertical leap which might help a bit, plus he's very agile. He's not the quickest however which is a slight concern.

[Dancin' Douggy]

He's got a massive vertical leap which might help a bit, plus he's very agile. He's not the quickest however which is a slight concern.

He looks super quick in the highlights reel up now on the club website

[The Adelaide Connection]

He's got a massive vertical leap which might help a bit, plus he's very agile. He's not the quickest however which is a slight concern.

When he got picked the commentator on the coverage (the older super knoweldgeable bloke) just went: "Lightning quick!".

[Greystache]

He looks super quick in the highlights reel up now on the club website

3.07 over 20m is quite on the slow side and his 5m and 10m sprint times were slower than the average ruckman, but perhaps once he gets up to speed he's ok.

He was at the top end of elite for vertical jump and agility so he's a good athlete overall.

[EasternWest]

Welcome aboard, Mark!

[Remi Moses]

That’s one nickname you don’t want

[Remi Moses]

Good set of wheels on him
Takes the game on

[Eastdog]

Welcome to the Dogs Laitham!

[dog town]

His stats are pretty good and was generally getting 20 or more touches a game.

[Dancin' Douggy]

3.07 over 20m is quite on the slow side and his 5m and 10m sprint times were slower than the average ruckman, but perhaps once he gets up to speed he's ok.

He was at the top end of elite for vertical jump and agility so he's a good athlete overall.

Hard to argue with those stats, but with all due respect, every single description I've read or heard about him, across every radio station, newspaper and social media mentions his pace as his major attribute.And he burns everyone around him off in the video package on the club website.
Maybe he just performed poorly in the testing.

[Mofra]

Hard to argue with those stats, but with all due respect, every single description I've read or heard about him, across every radio station, newspaper and social media mentions his pace as his major attribute.And he burns everyone around him off in the video package on the club website.
Maybe he just performed poorly in the testing.
Bont was in the bottom 10% for acceleration at draft camp but almost never gets caught.

Some players use their pace well, and some are average at acceleration but have good pace when they get there.

[jeemak]

It's interesting that he looks to have good game awareness and knowledge of when to run hard and when to evade, irrespective of the poor testing times quoted.

Not sure whether it will translate to senior football as well as it looks to have in the TAC, as in the former everyone is fairly crafty and forwards have really good pace and a defensive mindset.

He has his chance, and I wish him all the best!

[Mofra]

Given we have such a young list and we're well stocked for HBFers he gets to just develop without the pressure to debut early.

[Twodogs]

Bont was in the bottom 10% for acceleration at draft camp but almost never gets caught.

Some players use their pace well, and some are average at acceleration but have good pace when they get there.


Michael Maclean wasn't the quickest player on the face of the planet but in his 98 (I think) games with us I never saw him once get done for dropping or holding the ball or even tackled successfully. He was like plasma in that they would try to grab a bit of him but that bit was gone in the time it took for the opposition player to think 'tackle him' and for that thought to travel through his brain and into his hands.

I loved Madge. Geez he was a good player. That centreline of Hawkins/Wallis/Maclean was brilliant.

[GVGjr]

Hard to argue with those stats, but with all due respect, every single description I've read or heard about him, across every radio station, newspaper and social media mentions his pace as his major attribute.And he burns everyone around him off in the video package on the club website.
Maybe he just performed poorly in the testing.

The difference is he is probably slow out of the blocks from a standing start. When playing football he is never really standing still so can accelerate quickly.
He's known for his running and kudos to the club for looking past the combine results.
Can you imagine in a couple of years if he and JJ get on a roll running the ball out of the backline?

[bornadog]

Finally he gets his debut and a very happy boy


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyKYk4MCnW4&feature=youtu.be


The Western Bulldogs will have a second debutant for the 2020 season, with Laitham Vandermeer to take his place against St Kilda at Marvel Stadium on Sunday.

Vandermeer, a 21-year-old in his second year at VU Whitten Oval, has impressed the Dogs’ hierarchy with his form on the track since the players have returned from isolation.

He has had to bide his time before being given an opportunity to make his AFL debut, after being recruited from the Murray Bushrangers at pick 37 in the 2018 NAB AFL Draft.

Bulldogs coach Luke Beveridge broke the news to the players after Thursday’s main training session at VU Whitten Oval.

Bevo announces debutant for Round 2
Luke Beveridge announces Laitham Vandermeer as the next Bulldog to make his debut in Round 2 of the 2020 AFL Season.

“It still hasn’t sunk in. I had no idea. I went for a lap, came back and my name got called out. A few of the boys said my face went white,” Vandermeer said.

“It’s a long time coming, and I’ve dreamed about this day for a while. It’s finally good to get the reward for the hard work.”

Vandermeer played 15 games in the VFL for Footscray in 2019 (he missed eight games through injury), averaging 15 disposals.

Laitham Vandermeer calls his Mum to tell her the good news after he is told he'll be debuting on Sunday against St Kilda.

He saved his best game for the Club’s VFL final against Port Melbourne, collecting a season-high 24 possessions.

He was also the travelling AFL emergency for the Bulldogs’ Round 13 win against Port Adelaide last year.

Vandermeer signed a one-year contract extension in December, keeping him at the Club until at least the end of the 2021 season.

[comrade]

Pretty surprised we're playing him first up but I like it. He has pace and god knows our side needs more of it.

[The Underdog]

Laaaaaaiiiith.
Nice one. Tidy skills and some pace. Hope he rips it up.

[Smads57]

This is a good move by the coaching staff...in the VFL this kid loved tucking the ball under his arm and just running. Maybe Woofers can remember his performance in the last finals game of the 2019 VFL season (?)

If the 16 minute quarters are about 'burst' players, well he is our man. Well done Laith...

[josie]

I am a vfl watcher and he is a smooth mover with an accurate kick. I can recall a few speedy bursts.

Good luck to the Flying Dutchman!! (No idea if he has Dutch heritage- guessing from the surname he might!!!).

[merantau]

I am a vfl watcher and he is a smooth mover with an accurate kick. I can recall a few speedy bursts.

Good luck to the Flying Dutchman!! (No idea if he has Dutch heritage- guessing from the surname he might!!!).

There's been a lot of talk about pace in relation to this young bloke.
I believe Jack Dyer once said of a player: "He runs quicker in the rain than he does in the wet."
Ah, pace! It's an inexact science!

[bornadog]

I wonder where he will play?

[GVGjr]

I wonder where he will play?

Drafted after a season in back line so we can rule that out :)
Wing and backline I think. Perhaps seen as a replacement for Hunter and Wood

[bornadog]

Drafted after a season in back line so we can rule that out :)
Wing and backline I think. Perhaps seen as a replacement for Hunter and Wood

That is what I expect, but who knows.

[Mofra]

Drafted after a season in back line so we can rule that out :)
Wing and backline I think. Perhaps seen as a replacement for Hunter and Wood
I've seen him at half forward at VFL level too. I think he'll get a run in a few spots. Personally if there's a back line spot I'd want Ed Richards and Bailey Williams rotating through there. Collingwood killed us with a press so we need blokes who can run through it. 60m players.


There's been a lot of talk about pace in relation to this young bloke.
I believe Jack Dyer once said of a player: "He runs quicker in the rain than he does in the wet."
Ah, pace! It's an inexact science!
Laith isn't just quick, but he actually uses his pace in games. He takes off after getting possession with the ball. I suspect his style of play might make the jump up to AFL lever harder but he seems the type of player worth pumping some games into because when it "clicks" he'll be brilliant for us.

I'm really bullish on him. We have some fringe kids I just like.
Lachie Young is in a similar category for mine. Raw as hell, not really ready, but can't wait for them to have 20+ games under their belt and a couple of pre-seasons because they're not just good footballers, but have genuine AFL-level traits that can be developed.

[Eastdog]

Good luck to Laitham on debut.

[Mofra]

I really hope he keeps his spot.
Made a couple of blunders a player with a few more games under his belt wouldn't make, but he actually got himself into good positions a number of times which was promising. Some players debut and leave you with question marks, Laith is one I think we should invest more gametime in.

[EasternWest]

I really hope he keeps his spot.
Made a couple of blunders a player with a few more games under his belt wouldn't make, but he actually got himself into good positions a number of times which was promising. Some players debut and leave you with question marks, Laith is one I think we should invest more gametime in.

Yeah he did alright. Definitely worth giving a few more games at least.

Looks like he's not short on confidence.

[Mofra]

Yeah he did alright. Definitely worth giving a few more games at least.

Looks like he's not short on confidence.
Had a few words for Brad Hill when he took a mark on him at one stage. We need more swagger so it was good to see

[The Underdog]

I really hope he keeps his spot.
Made a couple of blunders a player with a few more games under his belt wouldn't make, but he actually got himself into good positions a number of times which was promising. Some players debut and leave you with question marks, Laith is one I think we should invest more gametime in.

He missed a couple of kicks, but they were kicks that were trying to open up the game and they were the right options (possibly aside from not choosing to use Bont early). He was probably the only upside from the game.

[soupman]

A pacy anything is sorely needed in our lineup and he looks like he can find the ball. Encouraging debut.

[Rocket Science]

Plenty to persist with here.

Confident, competitive, knows how to find it and has that Robby Flower-esque hunch that just spells good things.

Love to see him settle in and make one the wings his own.

[Remi Moses]

Bit of a Harry high pants
Good debut , bit to work with

[azabob]

I’d be very disappointed if he was dropped.
There is a lot to work with.
Takes the game on, breaks the lines with his running and runs hard, he also appears to have depth in his kicking which is something we currently lack.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Laitham Vandermeer really reminds me of Gary Walpole. Anyone remember him? Came from Fish Creek and played 12 games for us in the '80s. Vandermeer plays and moves just like him.

[azabob]

Laitham Vandermeer really reminds me of Gary Walpole. Anyone remember him? Came from Fish Creek and played 12 games for us in the '80s. Vandermeer plays and moves just like him.

I hope we get more than 12 games from him!

I thought Vandermeer was a penetrating kick (45+ easily) but after Friday night I'm not so sure.

[Remi Moses]

No offense to Gary Walpole ( did win us a game against Melbourne once ) but I hope he’s a better player

[ratsmac]

I loved his repeat efforts from Laith the other night. It was a very heated game against the orange as Bevo says, and Laith wasn't intimidated one bit. He put on a couple of tackles within a couple seconds at one point keeping the pressure right on the scumbags. He's made of the right stuff it would seem. I like him.

[Twodogs]

No offense to Gary Walpole ( did win us a game against Melbourne once ) but I hope he’s a better player

Sealed it actually. We won by 7 points that day and Gary (on debut) kicked the goal that put us more than a goal up.

[Testekill]

I loved his repeat efforts from Laith the other night. It was a very heated game against the orange as Bevo says, and Laith wasn't intimidated one bit. He put on a couple of tackles within a couple seconds at one point keeping the pressure right on the scumbags. He's made of the right stuff it would seem. I like him.

He's quick and he takes the game on, I like the kid and he hasn't been timid out there.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

In trying circumstances, I think he's acquitted himself pretty well.

He doesn't take a backward step at all, has great pace / a nice sidestep, had adjusted well to the pace of the game and we know he has good skills.

Needs time/games - perfect time (and season) to do this.

Mofra (IIRC) and I have been on his bandwagon from day one ;)

[Mofra]

Mofra (IIRC) and I have been on his bandwagon from day one ;)
I knew zero about him until we drafted him, and I did like the way he played at VFL level. He seems to have a little cockiness about him which we lack.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Am i in trouble for pointing out Laitham has a neck length not dissimilar to Gladstone Small?
II really wanna call Laitham, Gladstone!
I loved Gladstone Small..his bowling at MCG was beautiful.....

[Scorlibo]

He’s got a bit of Jason Tutt in his posture and movement.

Perhaps a bit of nerves impacting the finesse in his kicking early on but you can hear the pure connection he makes with the ball. Also love seeing his passion on display - after he lost that contest against Rowbottom in the goal square the fist went straight into the turf, I imagine the coaches would be telling him to redirect that energy into the next piece of play but as a supporter it’s good to see that he’s emotionally invested.

[comrade]

He’s got a bit of Jason Tutt in his posture and movement.

Perhaps a bit of nerves impacting the finesse in his kicking early on but you can hear the pure connection he makes with the ball. Also love seeing his passion on display - after he lost that contest against Rowbottom in the goal square the fist went straight into the turf, I imagine the coaches would be telling him to redirect that energy into the next piece of play but as a supporter it’s good to see that he’s emotionally invested.

A rich man's Jason Tutt.

[Bulldog Joe]

He’s got a bit of Jason Tutt in his posture and movement.

Perhaps a bit of nerves impacting the finesse in his kicking early on but you can hear the pure connection he makes with the ball. Also love seeing his passion on display - after he lost that contest against Rowbottom in the goal square the fist went straight into the turf, I imagine the coaches would be telling him to redirect that energy into the next piece of play but as a supporter it’s good to see that he’s emotionally invested.

At least so far he lacks the concrete in his hands to be compared to Tutt.

[EasternWest]

A rich man's Jason Tutt.

A Jason Tutt with actual game, if you will.

[Twodogs]

Am i in trouble for pointing out Laitham has a neck length not dissimilar to Gladstone Small?
II really wanna call Laitham, Gladstone!
I loved Gladstone Small..his bowling at MCG was beautiful.....

Gladstone Small was walking past a group of me and my mates at the MCG one day so we gave him a bit of a sledge and he gave us one back. He ended up sitting and talking with us for 45 minutes or so. Really nice guy.

[Remi Moses]

Sealed it actually. We won by 7 points that day and Gary (on debut) kicked the goal that put us more than a goal up.

Left foot torpedo that bounced through . Complete accident
When you win two games for the year you tend to remember the wins ;)

[Ozza]

Its interesting to see the amount of love Laith is getting on here since his debut. I don't disagree with it at all - but interesting to see how fans react to players - where a 7 possession game from a new player can be so warmly embraced!

[GVGjr]

Its interesting to see the amount of love Laith is getting on here since his debut. I don't disagree with it at all - but interesting to see how fans react to players - where a 7 possession game from a new player can be so warmly embraced!

I tend to think that it gets analyzed a bit more critically if we lose games

I'd actually have him in the mix to be dropped this week but I remain bullish about his future

[Mofra]

He’s got a bit of Jason Tutt in his posture and movement.
I mentioned it last game to people I was watching it with, he really does play like Jason Tutt except without the concrete hands.

[Ozza]

I tend to think that it gets analyzed a bit more critically if we lose games

I'd actually have him in the mix to be dropped this week but I remain bullish about his future

I think we lack speed up forward from a pressure perspective, so Laith could become important to our set up if he learns to use his speed a bit more at AFL level and add to his defensive game. Wally is great in a contest but struggles to impact defensively. Rhylee West is quite similar as this point in time.

[GVGjr]

It's fair to say he's had a couple of challenging years since a promising debut and that injuries and form might have slowed his progress a bit what can we do to recharge his career?
Does he need a position change or can we use him in a better role that would improve his performances?

[Swoop]

His development has stalled because of injury. He's clearly rated within the four walls by his selection but hasn't had a consistent run.

They need to strip his program back and build his body up to stand up against the demands of AFL. He needs a full preseason to lay the foundation for a strong year or he could become lost to the game completely.

I don't mind the idea of going back but he's competing against better options in Richards, Dale, Daniel, and Duryea. His best option is to cement himself as a wing / forward.

If you go back to the start of our 2021 season, his form and influence in that role was very important. If you watch our highlights, you can see the impact he had on our goalscoring opportunities as well as the pressure he brings. I'd also put JJ in the same category. Both bring speed in our front half but need injury free seasons.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

His development has stalled because of injury. He's clearly rated within the four walls by his selection but hasn't had a consistent run.

They need to strip his program back and build his body up to stand up against the demands of AFL. He needs a full preseason to lay the foundation for a strong year or he could become lost to the game completely.

I don't mind the idea of going back but he's competing against better options in Richards, Dale, Daniel, and Duryea. His best option is to cement himself as a wing / forward.

If you go back to the start of our 2021 season, his form and influence in that role was very important. If you watch our highlights, you can see the impact he had on our goalscoring opportunities as well as the pressure he brings. I'd also put JJ in the same category. Both bring speed in our front half but need injury free seasons.

He's had some moments, but he hasn't really had too many games where he's put it together as a forward. As a forward you really need to be able to either create (which requires footy IQ and skill) or hit the scoreboard. He does neither - in fact both are weaknesses in his game.

It could be argued he's played for his defensive pressure, which at times can be OK, but I believe you need more than just that if you're a forward at an elite level (and for a contending side). It basically means we're playing 1 option short, and we're already Naughton or bust.

Defensive pressure is important but you need to bring something else and he just doesn't.

It's back to half back for mine. I suspect the same issues (decision making, skill execution) mean this is risky but I feel it's his only hope. It was his natural position, he can break lines, and besides Dale we looked stifled all year.

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

Mercifully he didn’t pull a hamstring

[SlimPickens]

Limited player for mine. His kicking is ordinary at best. I wonder if we’ll try him on a wing to use his pace. Shudder at the thought of him trying to hit a target.

[Grantysghost]

Mercifully he didn’t pull a hamstring

He did change lanes though and completely cut off his opponent.

[Bulldog4life]

He did change lanes though and completely cut off his opponent.

Thought they would have it on the straight like previous years.

[F'scary]

He is a one-sided ball butcher who doesn't find it very much.

[1eyedog]

Vandermeer shouldn't even be on our list but we need to keep Baz happy.

[bornadog]

I would move him back and see how he goes.

[SonofScray]

Have been a defender, but he lost ,e this year. Going to need to take a huge leap in his development and get back to some of that dash and aggro that appealed to us early on.

[GVGjr]

Have been a defender, but he lost ,e this year. Going to need to take a huge leap in his development and get back to some of that dash and aggro that appealed to us early on.

He always appears to rush his possessions and as a result he turns the ball over too frequently.
I really don't know how we can best use him next season.

[Scorlibo]

My big concern with Laith is that he doesn't find enough of the ball. 33 games to his name and only two games with 15+ disposals. I'd like to see him tried as a defensive wingman, to negate the better wings in the game. His three assets imo are his pressure, his pace and his kicking depth. Playing forward really limits how well he can use the latter two. Like others I don't have a heap of faith in him hitting targets but the way he can take 20m with his run and hoof the ball could catch defences out in a Pagan's paddock style play.

[Bullies]

He just doesn't have the nous to play up forward. He can't play on instinct like most forwards do.

He is one of those players fortunate to be on a list because he has speed rather than his football ability.

I would teach him the art of tagging during the off season as he will learn of the best players he plays on as to where he needs to go and when.

[comrade]

He plays like a chook with his head cut off. An athlete more than a footballer, which is unfortunate given his tissue paper hamstrings and is currently just wasting a list spot.

I don’t mind the suggestions of him becoming a tagger or a lock down small defender. A role that requires little lateral thinking or footy IQ is his go, just tell him to follow an opponent and don’t let him get the ball.

[jeemak]

I'm happy to leave him where he is and let him develop into the role. However, I reserve the right to lose my mind throughout the process given his brain fades and abovementioned issues.

He wasn't drafted as a forward, and the role we ask him to play is ridiculously hard. Crunch the ground, get back to be an offencive threat, be a defencive one if that doesn't work out, be opportunistic if it does, and don't shit the bed when you get it after the frenzy and under fatigue.

Having said that, he's going to be 24 at the start of the next season and we often forget he was drafted as a later age player. It's arguable whether he has more maturity left in him and whether he can balance his raw pace with a bit of composure. So for mine it should be his last year coming up, and if there was a thread around here that had contract information attached to it we could add more context to a possible claim of this being his last chance. But unfortunately it's just guess work.

[hujsh]

So what do we do with this kid? Was impressive early putting his body on the line in a couple of crucial contests and providing much needed leg speed and forward pressure.

Nowadays the lure of the pressure is somewhat offset by poor discipline and the appeal of leg speed somewhat offset by his frequent injuries. Likewise other issues in his game such as poor/rushed disposal have become more evident.

So do we persist with him forward? The coaches seem to like him there.

Do we try him back? Is there someone in defence he can replace/that can play elsewhere? Playing in his natural position may help with some of his issues (Matty Boyd kicked better once in defence) and better utilise his strengths (pace to break the lines and open up the field)

Can he make the wing his own? Pace is valuable out wide and we know he can attack a contest hard when the ball spills out in his direction.

In summary... what do?

[Stevo]

I'm not sure about him Hujsh. VDM has the tools to be an excellent player but something gets lost in the translation.

[bornadog]

I would like him to move to a wing role as I don't think it has worked out being a small forward.

Could he swap with Caleb? Caleb is an elite kick, so it would be a risk

[F'scary]

His strengths are physical and attitudinal: he is pacy and goes in hard for the ball, including chasing and tackling.

But...his disposal by hand and foot needs heaps of work, including kicking for goal. Does not seem to have much natural vision for spotting up team mates quickly or picking the best option. Can find it hard to rack up possessions. Then there are the repeated hamstring injuries...

I want him to improve so that he becomes decent depth or even solid 22 because we have invested several years in him by the end of next season. At the moment, there are too many skill problems with his game.

[F'scary]

I would like him to move to a wing role as I don't think it has worked out being a small forward.

Could he swap with Caleb? Caleb is an elite kick, so it would be a risk

He is close to the worst kick for goal in the team. Set shot or on the run.

[1eyedog]

Depth player break glass in case of emergency.

[hujsh]

His strengths are physical and attitudinal: he is pacy and goes in hard for the ball, including chasing and tackling.

But...his disposal by hand and foot needs heaps of work, including kicking for goal. Does not seem to have much natural vision for spotting up team mates quickly or picking the best option. Can find it hard to rack up possessions. Then there are the repeated hamstring injuries...

I want him to improve so that he becomes decent depth or even solid 22 because we have invested several years in him by the end of next season. At the moment, there are too many skill problems with his game.

Would these attibutse best suit a wing? Or a different position?

Maybe a low possession but high impact, line breaking role on the wing where he can keep it simple and kick the ball long to Laughton/Lobb deep forward one out would suit him best?

When not on a fast break we don't pressure him to be involved and maybe he sits back a bit to help out on the turnover?

[Grantysghost]

He is close to the worst kick for goal in the team. Set shot or on the run.

Is he that bad? I thought Hunter was the worst, not sure who takes the mantle now he and Dunks are gone.

[Axe Man]

Is he that bad? I thought Hunter was the worst, not sure who takes the mantle now he and Dunks are gone.

Might be Bailey Smith, went at 23% accuracy this year - 6.10 from 26 shots. Vandermeer 4.3 from 9 shots at 44%

Alex Keath is the goal kicking king - 3.0 from 3 shots. ;)

[hujsh]

Is he that bad? I thought Hunter was the worst, not sure who takes the mantle now he and Dunks are gone.

Aparently (AFL stats) for this year it's Hunter, (22%), B.Smith (23%), Bruce (33%), and before peope get on the anti-Bruce pro-Schache train from this stat next up is surprisingly Schache with 35%

Usually Bruce is a good shot so of the players left it's probably the Baileys of Smith and Williams (38%) variety.

Weightman unsurprisingly the best of anyone with many goals (63%) and Naughts second of anyone with 10 or more (52%).

Laith with 44, Dunks 46 and Bont 45 are around the middle of the pack

[bornadog]

Is he that bad? I thought Hunter was the worst, not sure who takes the mantle now he and Dunks are gone.

Hunter, Dunkley and VDM have all kicked more behinds than goals in their career

[GVGjr]

His strengths are physical and attitudinal: he is pacy and goes in hard for the ball, including chasing and tackling.

But...his disposal by hand and foot needs heaps of work, including kicking for goal. Does not seem to have much natural vision for spotting up team mates quickly or picking the best option. Can find it hard to rack up possessions. Then there are the repeated hamstring injuries...

I want him to improve so that he becomes decent depth or even solid 22 because we have invested several years in him by the end of next season. At the moment, there are too many skill problems with his game.

He's a rusher who panics a bit when he has the ball which impacts his kicking. If someone can get him to slow down just a fraction when he has the ball his stats could improve by a fair bit.

[Swoop]

I don't mind if he doesn't get high possessions, on average Weightman accumulates one possession per kilometre covered. The issue is that he needs to make his possessions count moreso due to his role. It's ok to add pressure which is his strength and the reason he is in the side, but he either adds another string to his bow by being more lethal with the ball, or he gets replaced with others who can.

He's behind too many to go back now, he either makes it as a small forward/wingman or will slowly be pushed out. He needs a huge preseason to lay the foundation because he can't afford another injury riddled season.

He's competing against Garcia, JJ, and West who all have different strengths but at this point I wouldn't have him at the front of that queue.

[Mofra]

He's competing against Garcia, JJ, and West who all have different strengths but at this point I wouldn't have him at the front of that queue.
JJ is a quality finisher though. Garcia and West might be better comparisons, although West hits the scoreboard more.
VDMs forte is pressure. He is arguably the best in the side at F50 pressure (McNeill damn close) but he's not really a threat inside 50.

Does he play? TBH that depends on other players and how we structure up. If we're playing other forwards who 'score first, defend second' he absolutely does.
Given Naughton and Marra are very good with defensive pressure and Weightman generally good too, that probably means we can carry an extra scorer rather than pure pressure type. That's bad news for Laith.
If Bailey Smith plays high forward... well Bailey doesn't defend with intent. Then we do need a pure pressure type.

[EasternWest]

Has anyone said delist? Because I have him on the delist pile.

[Sedat]

Has anyone said delist? Because I have him on the delist pile.
Agree. He just doesn't have any weapons in hs game that are unleashed with any consistency. I will forever be grateful for his quick thinking to cleverly scuff through a point in the last minute against Brisbane in the 2021 SF - over time, that will become one of the great finals wins in our club history.

[soupman]

He has some good attributes, and one I think that is underrated by us supporters is his ability to work hard and too position. It's obvious he isn't contributing enough if you take out the pressure side, so he must be doing everything asked of him by the coaches in the other aspects.

I really want us to make a shift to playing actual small forwards in our small forward spots. Atm we are shoehorning quick guys in who can apply pressure like Vandermeer, West, McNeill and Garcia but none of them are natural goalkickers (which isn't to say they can't more that they aren't dangerous like that). I'm hoping we can get a few onto the list and start transitioning roles, which will mean these guys have to go elsewhere. Seeing as our wings are no existent and it is the easiest position to place a bunch of undersized quick guys then I think Vandermeer has to be given a chance there.

I don't watch much of Melbourne but could Vandemeer aim to be something like Langdon? He is quick and covers the ground well, the extra space might help his disposal and while his kicking can be ineffective it isn't bad and has better range than someone like McNeill.

[F'scary]

Would these attibutse best suit a wing? Or a different position?

Maybe a low possession but high impact, line breaking role on the wing where he can keep it simple and kick the ball long to Laughton/Lobb deep forward one out would suit him best?

When not on a fast break we don't pressure him to be involved and maybe he sits back a bit to help out on the turnover?

Interchange/Wing role maybe

[F'scary]

Is he that bad? I thought Hunter was the worst, not sure who takes the mantle now he and Dunks are gone.

no Hunter was Tory Dickson compared to VDM, what the goals and behinds stats dont show you is how many failed to make the distance or were recorded as rushed or were OOF.

[F'scary]

Has anyone said delist? Because I have him on the delist pile.

I have discussed him in view of the fact he has a 2023 contract, EW.

[F'scary]

He's a rusher who panics a bit when he has the ball which impacts his kicking. If someone can get him to slow down just a fraction when he has the ball his stats could improve by a fair bit.

The rush thing is the best part of his game, that is his weapon: running flat out at the opposition. What can you do to stop the panic disposal? I have an idea and I think it is legal: prescribed beta blockers.:D [edit]: sorry but otherwise just work on some trustworthy disposal strategies.

[hujsh]

no Hunter was Tory Dickson compared to VDM, what the goals and behinds stats dont show you is how many failed to make the distance or were recorded as rushed or were OOF.

Actually I'm pretty sure the AFL ones I posted do take that into account as the numbers aren't the same as the Goal/Behind ratio

[FrediKanoute]

He's a rusher who panics a bit when he has the ball which impacts his kicking. If someone can get him to slow down just a fraction when he has the ball his stats could improve by a fair bit.

THat's always been my impression of VdM. What I will say though is that he has been cruelled a little the last 2 years with soft tissue problems. This year we did him no favours in rushing him back, and this contrubuted to his overall poor performances. His Elimination Final was one he wont want to be reminded of too often.

Where is he at? I think he is best 25. His pace and attack on the footy is 1st rate. Needs to produce from a possession perspective. A move to the wing may not be a bad option.

[FrediKanoute]

JJ is a quality finisher though. Garcia and West might be better comparisons, although West hits the scoreboard more.
VDMs forte is pressure. He is arguably the best in the side at F50 pressure (McNeill damn close) but he's not really a threat inside 50.

Does he play? TBH that depends on other players and how we structure up. If we're playing other forwards who 'score first, defend second' he absolutely does.
Given Naughton and Marra are very good with defensive pressure and Weightman generally good too, that probably means we can carry an extra scorer rather than pure pressure type. That's bad news for Laith.
If Bailey Smith plays high forward... well Bailey doesn't defend with intent. Then we do need a pure pressure type.

The forward pressure argument only works though if you then have guys who can feed off this and I don't think we really benefitted in 2022. Certainly West had VdM covered for a balanced pressure/output/score involvement perspective.

[Testekill]

no Hunter was Tory Dickson compared to VDM, what the goals and behinds stats dont show you is how many failed to make the distance or were recorded as rushed or were OOF.

Yeah VDM would have had a lot of shots where no score was recorded, he doesn't have much penetration on his kicks and when he does try to kick the cover of it he'll spray it.

[Axe Man]

no Hunter was Tory Dickson compared to VDM, what the goals and behinds stats dont show you is how many failed to make the distance or were recorded as rushed or were OOF.


Actually I'm pretty sure the AFL ones I posted do take that into account as the numbers aren't the same as the Goal/Behind ratio

This. I even posted the goals/points/number of shots on goal.

Hunter has an awful career record as well, not just last year. 73.84 from 192 shots @ 38%.

Vandermeer 19.20 from 45 shots @ 42%.

[Axe Man]

Yeah VDM would have had a lot of shots where no score was recorded, he doesn't have much penetration on his kicks and when he does try to kick the cover of it he'll spray it.

Only 6 out of 45 shots in his whole career haven't scored. It's not as bad as your perception.

[F'scary]

Only 6 out of 45 shots in his whole career haven't scored. It's not as bad as your perception.

6 out of 45 is perceived by me to be pretty bad. That's over 10% haven't made the distance or were OOBOTF.

[Axe Man]

6 out of 45 is perceived by me to be pretty bad. That's over 10% haven't made the distance or were OOBOTF.

I would say it's probably fairly average across the league though. Tom Hawkins has also had more than 10% of his shots not score since 2013 when they started recording shot on goal stats.

[F'scary]

I would say it's probably fairly average across the league though. Tom Hawkins has also had more than 10% of his shots not score since 2013 when they started recording shot on goal stats.

ok, but I also have never been that impressed with Hawkin's kicking for goals. Everyone loves to pile in Naughton but whenever I watch the Cats, there's Hawkins fluffing plenty but he seems to get some kind of free pass from the McAveny media.

[Testekill]

ok, but I also have never been that impressed with Hawkin's kicking for goals. Everyone loves to pile in Naughton but whenever I watch the Cats, there's Hawkins fluffing plenty but he seems to get some kind of free pass from the McAveny media.

It's because he's allowed to shove opponents out of the contest all the time so he's never really getting set shots from difficult positions.

[F'scary]

It's because he's allowed to shove opponents out of the contest all the time so he's never really getting set shots from difficult positions.

but you lay one finger on him...

[Mofra]

ok, but I also have never been that impressed with Hawkin's kicking for goals. Everyone loves to pile in Naughton but whenever I watch the Cats, there's Hawkins fluffing plenty but he seems to get some kind of free pass from the McAveny media.
He's 19th on the all time VFL/AFL goalkicking list (and will climb it next year), and no 1 on Geelong's all-time list.
He's a legit superstar

[Rocco Jones]

He's 19th on the all time VFL/AFL goalkicking list (and will climb it next year), and no 1 on Geelong's all-time list.
He's a legit superstar

100%. He also those stuff that's best for his team and signs on for unders.

[macca]

its the pushing and shoving Hawkins, he gets away with and the ridcolous free kicks he is awarded when any opponent lays a finger on him.

The frees he got in the last H&A game against Brisbane completely killed the Lions momentum.
its not an even game playing against the cats.

[Grantysghost]

its the pushing and shoving Hawkins, he gets away with and the ridcolous free kicks he is awarded when any opponent lays a finger on him.

The frees he got in the last H&A game against Brisbane completely killed the Lions momentum.
its not an even game playing against the cats.

He seems to get a lot of latitude, especially in those forward ruck contests.
He's a very good player too.

[Testekill]

He seems to get a lot of latitude, especially in those forward ruck contests.
He's a very good player too.

It can be two things. He's a very good tall forward and he gets to play a style where the rules do not apply to him.

[WBFC4FFC]

It can be two things. He's a very good tall forward and he gets to play a style where the rules do not apply to him.

I found leading into the end of the season and into the Elimination Final against the Shockers that you could just start to push in the back at the contests.

Interesting the hands-in-the-back rule was reinstated the following week against the Shockers at the MCG but sure as hell came back in the GF!

Crofty used to use his body beautifully and the Umps would always ping him for in the back despite never using his hands/arms!!!!

[bulldogtragic]

I’m sorry. I know we are meant to love all our players and it’s sacrilegious to say otherwise. But…

I can’t stand him playing and never want to see him again.

I know you’re not meant to say that out loud, but it’s how I feel.

[jeemak]

He was going OK until the pressure got dialed up a bit and then lost his mind at a couple of critical points. The fumble and the stupid high tackle were really costly.

I get we had issues all over the ground today in the second half, but you have to call those things out - particularly the high tackle (as a skill error is a skill error), because it's undisciplined and unthinking and it happens too much with him.

[EasternWest]

I'm just gonna say that I've been open about not being a fan of Vandermeer, but I am casting my mind back to "that" kick from Billy Gowers and the almighty pummeling he was given for it - and how much he said that affected his mental health.

So really all I have to say is he made two pretty critical errors late in the game, but let's remember it wasn't his fault we were in that position to start with.

[bulldogtragic]

He was going OK until the pressure got dialed up a bit and then lost his mind at a couple of critical points. The fumble and the stupid high tackle were really costly.

I get we had issues all over the ground today in the second half, but you have to call those things out - particularly the high tackle (as a skill error is a skill error), because it's undisciplined and unthinking and it happens too much with him.

Yep. Looking at his career stats.

20 goals, 24 behinds plus complete misses (a miserable 45% goal accuracy, and worse once misses counted)
21 frees for, 30 frees against (40% worse differential)

Today:

0.2 when we needed to rack up scores
No frees for, Dumb free could’ve cost the win


I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised. Right on brand. But the MC love him and the list manager loves him, so maybe he will turn all his exposed form around.

[Hotdog60]

The trouble is we lack leg speed and I think he got a contract on that. Powers shopping list at the end of the season I hope has leg speed and kicking skills hi on the list because in the next 2 years I hope LVM is a break glass option only.

[jeemak]

I think we've lost our way when thinking about our smalls.

If you're not strong in a contest or strong overhead, then you need to be good at ground balls, and clean with first hands and disposal. Being quick isn't enough if you're not doing the other bits right - and not all of our smalls are quick!

In VDM's case I actually think he's not a bad investment because he has shown instances of doing things right over the journey, but if he doesn't mature quickly and stop the brain fades that cost us then I don't see how he takes the next step.

[bulldogtragic]

The trouble is we lack leg speed and I think he got a contract on that. Powers shopping list at the end of the season I hope has leg speed and kicking skills hi on the list because in the next 2 years I hope LVM is a break glass option only.

Probably right. But we can get Usain Bolt as a Cat B rookie if we want speed. Surely bring a half decent footballer is more important. His career accuracy at goal is likely sub 40% which is horrendous. Giving away 40% more frees over his career than he’s getting is not good. What good is speed if you can’t hit target, can’t kick goals and are undisciplined?

[Hotdog60]

Probably right. But we can get Usain Bolt as a Cat B rookie if we want speed. Surely bring a half decent footballer is more important. His career accuracy at goal is likely sub 40% which is horrendous. Giving away 40% more frees over his career than he’s getting is not good. What good is speed if you can’t hit target, can’t kick goals and are undisciplined?

I agree. I also had him in the delist at the end of the year which won't happen now. When he first come on the scene I was quite optimistic with him being quick and aggressive but as time has gone on I have lost faith that he can perform at this level.

[bulldogtragic]

I agree. I also had him in the delist at the end of the year which won't happen now. When he first come on the scene I was quite optimistic with him being quick and aggressive but as time has gone on I have lost faith that he can perform at this level.

Honestly. His best achievement in our jumper might be winning a grand final halftime sprint. He’s not improving. But he’s not alone, our development of players is piss poor. It seems like he trains hard and seems like a likeable kid. But that unfortunately doesn’t make you an AFEL player. Even keeping your feet with Papley, irrespective of anything else. Just keep your feet. I just can’t trust him, and he’s got finger prints on crucial moments in two narrow losses when we will miss finals. It not his fault we lost. But he doesn’t know or can’t deliver his lines.

[chef]

Honestly. His best achievement in our jumper might be winning a grand final halftime sprint. He’s not improving. But he’s not alone, our development of players is piss poor. It seems like he trains hard and seems like a likeable kid. But that unfortunately doesn’t make you an AFEL player. Even keeping your feet with Papley, irrespective of anything else. Just keep your feet. I just can’t trust him, and he’s got finger prints on crucial moments in two narrow losses when we will miss finals. It not his fault we lost. But he doesn’t know or can’t deliver his lines.

Lets not forget his match winning point in that final against Brisbane:p

He has got the tools to be a handy footballer so i hope he can put it all together.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Yeah, I don't see it with VDM.

Pace which he uses sporadically, poor footy IQ, limited by foot, not great in the contest because he's not clean.

It's nice to be fast but you need more than that.

[bulldogtragic]

Lets not forget his match winning point in that final against Brisbane:p

He has got the tools to be a handy footballer so i hope he can put it all together.

What tools does he have to be a handy AFEL level footballer?

[macca]

Honestly. His best achievement in our jumper might be winning a grand final halftime sprint. He?s not improving. But he?s not alone, our development of players is piss poor. It seems like he trains hard and seems like a likeable kid. But that unfortunately doesn?t make you an AFEL player. Even keeping your feet with Papley, irrespective of anything else. Just keep your feet. I just can?t trust him, and he?s got finger prints on crucial moments in two narrow losses when we will miss finals. It not his fault we lost. But he doesn?t know or can?t deliver his lines.

Papley is a quick , natural footballer , with very good balance, as he does not fall over

No disrespect to VdM on his efforts , but his not a natural footballer. i am yet to be convinced he is actually quick. You need to be quick and long kick or chase down tackler .

[chef]

What tools does he have to be a handy AFEL level footballer?

His runnning ability mostly, he does have footy ability(hes not a smart player though). I guess he needs the right role.

[bulldogtragic]

His runnning ability mostly, he does have footy abilty(hes not a smart player though). I guess he needs the right role.

He misses more than 3 of every 5 shots on goal. He can’t hit targets, is undisciplined and not a high IQ defensive type and struggles with things like keeping his feet in the contest. And picks and chooses when he runs.

So if it’s just his running ability, what’s the right role for him?

[chef]

He misses more than 3 of every 5 shots on goal. He can’t hit targets, is undisciplined and not a high IQ defensive type and struggles with things like keeping his feet in the contest. And picks and chooses when he runs.

So if it’s just his running ability, what’s the right role for him?

I guess someone at the club must see something worth while in him at the club. We have another 2 seasons to find out so strap in.

[bulldogtragic]

I guess someone at the club must see something worth while in him at the club. We have another 2 seasons to find out so strap in.

I agree, we will be watching him for a while. I was trying to see what you see in him and where he should play.

[Go_Dogs]

He’s not a forward. If we persist, we have to use him as a runner from the back half.

Ultimately a JJ replacement?

[chef]

I agree, we will be watching him for a while. I was trying to see what you see in him and where he should play.

Im not an expert at this stuff(unlike yourself and im glad your back), i guess as outside runner/link up type.

[Prince Imperial]

He was serviceable as a defender but has continually played like a headless chook in the half forward role over several seasons.

He's 24 now and really should only be given games at AFL level if we're lacking anyone else to play a small defender role.

[soupman]

I actually haven't hated him the last few weeks.

We aren't looking for him to be a key player, so I'm not judging him as one. I think the intensity he brings, as well as the pace and willingness to work is an asset. In defence he was quieter than i expected but I also didn't think he stood out in a poor sense. He played forward today and I think had enough impactful moments to have contributed.

His execution can and often does suck, I can't deny that, and whether or not that is a deal breaker I don't know. But I do think he is consistently the best performed in that bullshit pressure small forward role we insist on playing guys in (vs McNeil, Garcia, Jones) and in a side that gets criticised for lacking mongrel or tenacity at times he delivers on both.

[SonofScray]

Fluffed two moment where the game felt like it was on his boot.

That he had the ball in his hands in those moments says something. That he fluffed them says something else. There’s a good footballer in there somewhere.

[Grantysghost]

Why does everyone hate Laith and love West?

I find the latter more annoying. Feel like he hasn't earned his strut.

He needs to just do the basics, play in front and not try and take mark of the year at crucial times.

LVDM was ok today I thought. Good pressure player. Made a couple of mistakes however so did many others.

[bulldogtragic]

Why does everyone hate Laith and love West?

I find the latter more annoying. Feel like he hasn't earned his strut.

He needs to just do the basics, play in front and not try and take mark of the year at crucial times.

LVDM was ok today I thought. Good pressure player. Made a couple of mistakes however so did many others.

Rhylee: 1.1, 1 GA, 5 Tackles
VDM: 0.2, 1 GA, 1 Tackle and horrible errors when the game was there to be won and a dumb, dumb free

West isn’t there yet, but id rather Rhylee today. Rhylee has 17.13 compared to VDM 20.24. So if it’s about who you pick to kick at goal, I’d much rather Rhylee.

[soupman]

West isn’t there yet, but id rather Rhylee today. Rhylee has 17.13 compared to VDM 20.24. So if it’s about who you pick to kick at goal, I’d much rather Rhylee.

But it's not. Sure Vandermeer made a couple of stuff ups but was his high tackle late any more damaging than the multiple times West started from behind and saw his opponent take an intercept mark and repel our attack?

I don't really want to argue this, the reason we lost isn't because of any specific failing of West or Laitham or any other fringe player. Laitham, like Rhylee, had some good moments and some bad. But we lost because of failings as a collective, not of the 20th and literally 23rd guy picked.

[Grantysghost]

Rhylee: 1.1, 1 GA, 5 Tackles
VDM: 0.2, 1 GA, 1 Tackle and horrible errors when the game was there to be won and a dumb, dumb free

West isn’t there yet, but id rather Rhylee today. Rhylee has 17.13 compared to VDM 20.24. So if it’s about who you pick to kick at goal, I’d much rather Rhylee.

I guess I'm thinking West seems to get the Sweet treatment and avoid any scrutiny on here, however Laith seems to be whipping boy numero uno.
Is very Billy Gowers.
The stats show they had almost identical games. West stuck more tackles, which makes sense being more inside.Laith had more metres gained.
To me it's another case of watching what they do without the ball as well as with it.

Fwiw I like both players.

[G-Mo77]

Watch West again yesterday. Provided a spark into the team, set up others, tackled hard etc. Then watch Laith. West has his limitations, sure, but judged harder by the MC than almost anyone on the list. Laith is one of these guys who get a free pass and we prematurely extended his contract like we always seem to do.

They're different players anyway that play different roles. Why on Earth are we comparing them?

[Hotdog60]

Give West LVM speed and we would have a very handy player.

[Grantysghost]

Watch West again yesterday. Provided a spark into the team, set up others, tackled hard etc. Then watch Laith. West has his limitations, sure, but judged harder by the MC than almost anyone on the list. Laith is one of these guys who get a free pass and we prematurely extended his contract like we always seem to do.

They're different players anyway that play different roles. Why on Earth are we comparing them?

Different roles? Both half forwards yesterday.

I'm not comparing a ruckman and Caleb here! ;)

[Grantysghost]

Give West LVM speed and we would have a very handy player.

That would be nice. I like West, hope that's not lost here.
I just think we are too harsh on Laith.

[G-Mo77]

Different roles? Both half forwards yesterday.

I'm not comparing a ruckman and Caleb here! ;)

Doesn't mean they do the exact same thing or play the exact same way. They are different players and played different roles.

[Grantysghost]

Doesn't mean they do the exact same thing or play the exact same way. They are different players and played different roles.

Fair enough.

[chef]

Has been pretty good tonight.

[Grantysghost]

Has been pretty good tonight.

Yep. He goes ok

[bulldogtragic]

Yep. He goes ok

I wouldn’t go that far, but not his worst game. Gave away a shocking turnover in the first 30 seconds.

[G-Mo77]

I wouldn’t go that far, but not his worst game. Gave away a shocking turnover in the first 30 seconds.

Like I said in the game theead he got that out of the way early. Put together a pretty good game tonight.

[Grantysghost]

I wouldn’t go that far, but not his worst game. Gave away a shocking turnover in the first 30 seconds.

He went at 95 percent DE.

West 69

Both great.

[bulldogtragic]

He went at 95 percent DE.

West 69

Why do you keep denigrating West as a poor form that VDM has had?

Edit: West had 16 touches, 3 marks, 2.2, 6 score involvements and three tackles as a small forward…

[Grantysghost]

Why do you keep denigrating West as a poor form that VDM has had?

West was great.

I think some have the blinkers on with some players.

[bulldogtragic]

West was great.

I think some have the blinkers on with some players.

Like constantly referencing West in this thread? :D

[Grantysghost]

Like constantly referencing West in this thread? :D

:)

Amazes me the leeway some get compared to others so I use him as a purposeful contrast dye.

[bulldogtragic]

:)

Amazes me the leeway some get compared to others so I use him as a purposeful contrast dye.

West gets dropped pretty regularly, I agree he doesn’t get enough leeway.

[bornadog]

Like I said in the game theead he got that out of the way early. Put together a pretty good game tonight.
Played a good game in the backline

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

That was his most composed game for some time. Really pleased to see him respond, I was really losing confidence in his ability to consistently deliver anywhere near the level required at AFL level. If he can build on this type of performance and have a solid back end to the season, it will definitely help our cause.

[whythelongface]

Like I said in the game theead he got that out of the way early. Put together a pretty good game tonight.

Close to his best game for us. Some good run off the backline

[Go_Dogs]

He’s a defender!

[GVGjr]

Solid performance, provided dash and played his role well.

[The Doctor]

Good to see VDM in a more natural position for him. Hopefully now we will be allowed to settle into the backline. With more experience there I think his composure and decision making will improve. He's certainly a livewire.

[kruder]

I still can't work out why we played him forward last week? I'm guessing maybe match ups?

I'm still not convinced yet, but as we have said for a few years now Laith is either a defender at AFL level or isn't up to AFL level at all.

A step in the right direction last night.

[Bulldog Joe]

Good to see VDM in a more natural position for him. Hopefully now we will be allowed to settle into the backline. With more experience there I think his composure and decision making will improve. He's certainly a livewire.

Problem with this is how many back flankers can you actually play.
We have
JJ
Richards
Dale
Plus playing other positions
Daniel
Williams
Then
Vandermeer
Cleary and perhaps JOD as an alternate

[Go_Dogs]

Problem with this is how many back flankers can you actually play.
We have
JJ
Richards
Dale
Plus playing other positions
Daniel
Williams
Then
Vandermeer
Cleary and perhaps JOD as an alternate

Having 4 running players who can play through there is probably the right mix for the selected 22.

Richards has shown he can do it in the air, so not just a runner, and VDM has taken a few overhead marks / been impactful in the air a few times to suggest it’s an area of his game which can continue to develop.

[1eyedog]

Williams hasn't played back all year and Daniel only gets pushed back strategically these days. Cleary is almost a third tall. We have three, JJ, Richards and Dale who are our staples with VDM the break glass option.

[Bulldog4life]

Williams hasn't played back all year and Daniel only gets pushed back strategically these days. Cleary is almost a third tall. We have three, JJ, Richards and Dale who are our staples with VDM the break glass option.

Williams played back against GWS when we lost Keath and Bruce.

[GVGjr]

Williams hasn't played back all year and Daniel only gets pushed back strategically these days. Cleary is almost a third tall. We have three, JJ, Richards and Dale who are our staples with VDM the break glass option.

I think Williams has been moved back on 3 or 4 occasions this year.

[FrediKanoute]

VDM is JJ in progress. The fast line breaking half back.

[Hotdog60]

VDM is JJ in progress. The fast line breaking half back.

The only thing is he doesn't kick like JJ :)

[JanLorMill]

VDM is JJ in progress. The fast line breaking half back.
Except that JJ already had a premiership medal at the same age.

[azabob]

Williams played back against GWS when we lost Keath and Bruce.


I think Williams has been moved back on 3 or 4 occasions this year.

He hasn’t started back from memory, only goes back through necessity.

[1eyedog]

I think Williams has been moved back on 3 or 4 occasions this year.

Perhaps. He hasn't started there at all though telling me the coaches don't think he is a half back.

[1eyedog]

Williams played back against GWS when we lost Keath and Bruce.

Yes I concede he has out of necessity but that was as a third tall and not a half back

[bornadog]

Except that JJ already had a premiership medal at the same age.

Still time :D

[Bulldog Revolution]

Still time :D

Id be comfortable watching him win a three-peat

[jazzadogs]

I'm still thinking about the Vandermeer reports from training, that he was swearing/yelling at teammates for not passing him the ball. I have a real problem with it, and hope that someone in leadership observed it and is pulling him up on it.

This isn't about driving standards imo. Matty Boyd drove standards and wasn't afraid to tell people they weren't working hard enough etc. But all the examples with Laith have been that the ball didn't get passed to him.

If he's also yelling at blokes not setting up the zone, or not running back to defend, or not blocking for a teammate...great.

But yelling at your teammate in December because he ignored your lead in a match sim is selfish.

[hujsh]

I'm still thinking about the Vandermeer reports from training, that he was swearing/yelling at teammates for not passing him the ball. I have a real problem with it, and hope that someone in leadership observed it and is pulling him up on it.

This isn't about driving standards imo. Matty Boyd drove standards and wasn't afraid to tell people they weren't working hard enough etc. But all the examples with Laith have been that the ball didn't get passed to him.

If he's also yelling at blokes not setting up the zone, or not running back to defend, or not blocking for a teammate...great.

But yelling at your teammate in December because he ignored your lead in a match sim is selfish.

There are certain situations where it might be right but in general, especially when directed at the younger players, it seems selfish. However Laitham is probably frustrated and in the heat of the moment is letting that show too quickly. Maybe once the session ends and he cools off he's better about being more constructive. I'd back the coaches/ leaders to be on it if he's not.

It does feed into this undisciplined persona he's created for himself with the silly frees and 50m penalties he's given up

[GVGjr]

I'm still thinking about the Vandermeer reports from training, that he was swearing/yelling at teammates for not passing him the ball. I have a real problem with it, and hope that someone in leadership observed it and is pulling him up on it.

This isn't about driving standards imo. Matty Boyd drove standards and wasn't afraid to tell people they weren't working hard enough etc. But all the examples with Laith have been that the ball didn't get passed to him.

If he's also yelling at blokes not setting up the zone, or not running back to defend, or not blocking for a teammate...great.

But yelling at your teammate in December because he ignored your lead in a match sim is selfish.

What you're saying is absolutely correct but I do believe it's something that is very easy to correct. We need the coaches to jump on it and have a chat to him because I'm sure the message is an easy sell.

[Rocco Jones]

I'm still thinking about the Vandermeer reports from training, that he was swearing/yelling at teammates for not passing him the ball. I have a real problem with it, and hope that someone in leadership observed it and is pulling him up on it.

This isn't about driving standards imo. Matty Boyd drove standards and wasn't afraid to tell people they weren't working hard enough etc. But all the examples with Laith have been that the ball didn't get passed to him.

If he's also yelling at blokes not setting up the zone, or not running back to defend, or not blocking for a teammate...great.

But yelling at your teammate in December because he ignored your lead in a match sim is selfish.

Spot on.

My concern isn't so much with Vanders and that type of incident, it's about how leadership deal with/support/nurture it.

We had Baz (self admittedly) sulking most of the season due to not playing in his favourite position. This stuff is going to happen but how do our leaders deal with it?

[bornadog]

What you're saying is absolutely correct but I do believe it's something that is very easy to correct. We need the coaches to jump on it and have a chat to him because I'm sure the message is an easy sell.

How many times did it happen? If it was just a couple of times, then no big deal.

[SquirrelGrip]

Spot on.

My concern isn't so much with Vanders and that type of incident, it's about how leadership deal with/support/nurture it.

We had Baz (self admittedly) sulking most of the season due to not playing in his favourite position. This stuff is going to happen but how do our leaders deal with it?

Is this what Geary might get involved with?

[Grantysghost]

Peeps give Laith a break :) #havefaithinlaith

If it was Naughton no one would care.

Sounds like he went a bit over the top, but as I've said in other places I don't mind the intent. Considering it's not something I think LVDM is known for (not like M. Boyd) I wonder if it's a highlighted area of necessary improvement (more on field leadership).
Hopefully he tones it down but still can help with making sure we make good decisions.

[hujsh]

Peeps give Laith a break :) #havefaithinlaith

If it was Naughton no one would care.

Sounds like he went a bit over the top, but as I've said in other places I don't mind the intent. Considering it's not something I think LVDM is known for (not like M. Boyd) I wonder if it's a highlighted area of necessary improvement (more on field leadership).
Hopefully he tones it down but still can help with making sure we make good decisions.

I'd care about the same if it was Macrae or Treloar or JJ. Naughton is MAYBE the one exception.

[Grantysghost]

I'd care about the same if it was Macrae or Treloar or JJ. Naughton is MAYBE the one exception.

Macrae is the VC!

I for one welcome our new LVDM overlord!

[jazzadogs]

Peeps give Laith a break :) #havefaithinlaith

If it was Naughton no one would care.

Sounds like he went a bit over the top, but as I've said in other places I don't mind the intent. Considering it's not something I think LVDM is known for (not like M. Boyd) I wonder if it's a highlighted area of necessary improvement (more on field leadership).
Hopefully he tones it down but still can help with making sure we make good decisions.

My question is, does he go just as hard when his teammates ignore another player in the open, or is it only when HE doesn't get the ball that it's a problem?

The answer to that (which I suspect I know) is what indicates the motive behind it - and I think it is all about making HIM better, not about the team.

[Twodogs]

It's something that good leadership can turn into a positive.

[Jumping Jones]

Have to say that I can’t see him quite making it to even 50 games with us.

[bulldogtragic]

Have to say that I can’t see him quite making it to even 50 games with us.

Delisted next year I think.

[GVGjr]

Delisted next year I think.

Contracted to the end of 2025 isn't he? Have we delisted a player in recent years with a year to run on their contract?

[bulldogtragic]

Contracted to the end of 2025 isn't he? Have we delisted a player in recent years with a year to run on their contract?

Wishful thinking on my part about his contract length apparently. Delisted in two years time.

[Jumping Jones]

Or traded for a fourth rounder

[jeemak]

Contracted to the end of 2025 isn't he? Have we delisted a player in recent years with a year to run on their contract?


Wishful thinking on my part about his contract length apparently. Delisted in two years time.

All speculation given there's no reference anywhere to his contract length.

[Prince Imperial]

All speculation given there's no reference anywhere to his contract length.

https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/1352415/vandermeer-remains-at-the-kennel


The youngster was thrilled to remain at the Bulldogs for a further two seasons.

[Can Bar]

My question is, does he go just as hard when his teammates ignore another player in the open, or is it only when HE doesn't get the ball that it's a problem?

The answer to that (which I suspect I know) is what indicates the motive behind it - and I think it is all about making HIM better, not about the team.

Agree this is the issue that needs to be resolved, is he yelling for the betterment of the team or his own selfish desire. Successful teams have 22 players who are prepared to sacrifice own personal glory for the team.

[Bulldog Joe]

Or traded for a fourth rounder

On current form it would be traded with a 4th rounder.

[Bigdog]

VDM’s improvement is as important as anyone next season imo. Outside of Naughton his the only player that chases with intent in the forward half. He has defensive attributes that our other forwards do not (and we need if we role if we role with the 3 tall forwards).

Also thought he was reasonable as a lockdown defender considering he came back from a significant injury and was learning a new role at afl level.

He’d be my first choice lockdown defender if we played him that end and my second choice small forward. And it’s line ball first forward as I think Weightman still plays a selfish brand and isn’t great defensively.

[The Underdog]

VDM’s improvement is as important as anyone next season imo. Outside of Naughton his the only player that chases with intent in the forward half. He has defensive attributes that our other forwards do not (and we need if we role if we role with the 3 tall forwards).

Also thought he was reasonable as a lockdown defender considering he came back from a significant injury and was learning a new role at afl level.

He’d be my first choice lockdown defender if we played him that end and my second choice small forward. And it’s line ball first forward as I think Weightman still plays a selfish brand and isn’t great defensively.

We might have to form a Laitham support group. While in no way do I think he’s going to be a top 15-20 player for us, his pace is a skill we don’t have in spades on this list. I also thought he showed a bit as a HBF depth fill in, but if he can maintain his fitness and be available, his speed in the forward 50 and aggression can be a point of difference. There was a 5 minute period I think early in the 3rd quarter against Geelong, in the last game of 2023, where he showed some real impact as a small forward. If he can provide that level of performance more regularly, he’ll definitely start off next year ahead of Jones, Clarke and McNeil.

[jeemak]

VDM frustrates the hell out of me at times like he does others, but he has an opportunity to mature. People carry on as if he has no AFL attributes, and that's rubbish.

A fair bit is being made of a couple of sprays at training when he was ignored. And who knows, the instruction may have been to reward the short/ open at all costs. Probably not something to worry about unless it is shown to be habitual, which I don't thing anyone has seen evidence of.

[kruder]

I must say I'm a little surprised that he is back training with the forward group, I just don't see it. I'm still happy to say if he becomes a best 22 player in time then it will be in the back half, his set of attributes are better utilised when a set of blinkers are applied.

[jazzadogs]

VDM frustrates the hell out of me at times like he does others, but he has an opportunity to mature. People carry on as if he has no AFL attributes, and that's rubbish.

A fair bit is being made of a couple of sprays at training when he was ignored. And who knows, the instruction may have been to reward the short/ open at all costs. Probably not something to worry about unless it is shown to be habitual, which I don't thing anyone has seen evidence of.

Fwiw, I agree that he has AFL attributes and think he is no worse of a player than someone like Beau McReery who just played an important role in a premiership forward line. I think he is a victim of not having a consistent and clear role, and frequent injuries.

His combination of speed and tenacity should be a point of difference for our starting side. He still has to prove that he can actually do it though.

And these reports of yelling at teammates at training may seem minor, but if they're still happening on game day then it's bad for culture, and if he can't rein it in when talking to umpires then it's more undisciplined 50m penalties. It's not that he may mature, it's that he MUST mature to be a regular AFL player.

[hujsh]

Fwiw, I agree that he has AFL attributes and think he is no worse of a player than someone like Beau McReery who just played an important role in a premiership forward line. I think he is a victim of not having a consistent and clear role, and frequent injuries.

His combination of speed and tenacity should be a point of difference for our starting side. He still has to prove that he can actually do it though.

And these reports of yelling at teammates at training may seem minor, but if they're still happening on game day then it's bad for culture, and if he can't rein it in when talking to umpires then it's more undisciplined 50m penalties. It's not that he may mature, it's that he MUST mature to be a regular AFL player.

Man is also 24 years old. To many of us I'm sure that still seems immature but in the football world he passed the point of being a kid and learning the ropes a while back.

[jeemak]

Man is also 24 years old. To many of us I'm sure that still seems immature but in the football world he passed the point of being a kid and learning the ropes a while back.

Everyone matures at different rates though, and perhaps this is actually something the club acknowledges in giving him more time on the list. He was drafted as a mature U18 which tells me for his age he's likely to have been pretty raw - which is something we'd all agree his games to date (which seem to come every time he's fit which is a massive endorsement from the MC) have demonstrated.

[jeemak]

Fwiw, I agree that he has AFL attributes and think he is no worse of a player than someone like Beau McReery who just played an important role in a premiership forward line. I think he is a victim of not having a consistent and clear role, and frequent injuries.

His combination of speed and tenacity should be a point of difference for our starting side. He still has to prove that he can actually do it though.

And these reports of yelling at teammates at training may seem minor, but if they're still happening on game day then it's bad for culture, and if he can't rein it in when talking to umpires then it's more undisciplined 50m penalties. It's not that he may mature, it's that he MUST mature to be a regular AFL player.

I've flipped my lid many times to date over his exploits on the field, he slotted in perfectly to replace Hunter as my most frustrating Bulldogs player these past twelve months!

Agree that he HAS to mature and ensure those things don't become a part of his game on top of the lazy, unthinking and ill-disciplined things he is capable of at times. But I just can't get too worried about it at this time of year after some training reports, albeit consistent and reliable ones.

These types of issues and bits and pieces of other things you hear about players not quite hitting the requirements or being frustrated at this time of year seem like opportunities for improvement to me. If the leadership from the MC and the playing group is there they'll be sorted. If not then it's on everyone, not just the individuals involved.

[Can Bar]

He has the speed and intensity we need, playing on the edge of right and wrong is also needed, which is easier said than done. Think this guy could be very important to us, he just needs to get through a season without tweaking a string.

[Grantysghost]

He has the speed and intensity we need, playing on the edge of right and wrong is also needed, which is easier said than done. Think this guy could be very important to us, he just needs to get through a season without tweaking a string.

Agree cb. He's got some real talent just needs confidence and consistency.

[westbulldog]

His 44 games to date don't see him as best 22 imo. I hope he improves, he needs to.

[doggies ftw]

VDM’s improvement is as important as anyone next season imo. Outside of Naughton his the only player that chases with intent in the forward half. He has defensive attributes that our other forwards do not (and we need if we role if we role with the 3 tall forwards).

Also thought he was reasonable as a lockdown defender considering he came back from a significant injury and was learning a new role at afl level.

He’d be my first choice lockdown defender if we played him that end and my second choice small forward. And it’s line ball first forward as I think Weightman still plays a selfish brand and isn’t great defensively.

Geez,

This could not be possibly further from the mark - when forward Cody dwarfs VDM for tackles, tackles inside 50, pressure acts ie all the defensive statistics. Not the mention the probably 100 odd more goals he?s kicked too.

How is Cody a selfish footballer? That is ridiculously harsh - what because he flies for marks? You do realise this has always been a massive part of his game and is a reason as to why he?s so good? Yes he needs to learn when to go and when to stay down, which he will - hes what 22yo? It?s not that simple of a thing to tell a marking target who?s spent their whole life being told to fly for everything they can get their hands to, to put that intent aside. It will come. It definitely doesn?t make him selfish.

There?s not a single person in the AFL world who would take VDM over Cody lol, one is one of the more highly rated young forwards in the league who will be a consistent 40 goal a year forward and one is a completely flawed ?athlete? Ho won?t be on a list within 2 years

[SonofScray]

If VDM can get fit, find continuity in his game and pick up on the initial promise he showed as a quick, hard nosed type of player we will find a spot for him, and be better for it. He is coming from a long way back though.

[macca]

VDM does not come across as a natural footballer with the times i have seen him cough it up. The match committee see positives in him , so they must have a purpose. I am afraid his one who just wont realy stand out in a team with his fumbles. I dont see it but hope he proves me wrong

[josie]

Agree MACCA. He is spirited and fast but I think he is a bit of a headless chook who also fumbles, plus his goal kicking accuracy is poor. Would also love to see him succeed as speed is something we are short of.

[EasternWest]

VDM does not come across as a natural footballer with the times i have seen him cough it up. The match committee see positives in him , so they must have a purpose. I am afraid his one who just wont realy stand out in a team with his fumbles. I dont see it but hope he proves me wrong


Agree MACCA. He is spirited and fast but I think he is a bit of a headless chook who also fumbles, plus his goal kicking accuracy is poor. Would also love to see him succeed as speed is something we are short of.

Agree with both of these points.

I've also been quick to criticise him because his mouth is bigger than his game. I am still in the "should get rid of him" list because I don't think he's going to bridge that gap.

That being said he's still in our colours so I want him to succeed. I'd also like him to succeed because a yappy guy with an attitude is actually something out team could really use.

[Grantysghost]

Agree with both of these points.

I've also been quick to criticise him because his mouth is bigger than his game. I am still in the "should get rid of him" list because I don't think he's going to bridge that gap.

That being said he's still in our colours so I want him to succeed. I'd also like him to succeed because a yappy guy with an attitude is actually something out team could really use.
Feel like he'd probably excel at Melbourne.

[SPower]

We need a lock down Half Back and another speedy player in our best 22 is also required.

Will it be Laith. ?
I hope so and this year will possibly define his AFL pathway, having been on the list 6 yrs this season.

[GVGjr]

We need a lock down Half Back and another speedy player in our best 22 is also required.

Will it be Laith. ?
I hope so and this year will possibly define his AFL pathway, having been on the list 6 yrs this season.
Laith appears to be training as a forward unlike last year when he had a few runs in the back half. To me he appears to be better suited as a defender.

[Bulldog4life]

Is being best mates with Bailey Smith a reason why he is still with us. Just a meandering thought.

[Mofra]

Laith appears to be training as a forward unlike last year when he had a few runs in the back half. To me he appears to be better suited as a defender.
I agree, although for a while he led the comp in repeat sprints (playing as a defensive forward) so his defensive pressure in the front half is something we also lack.

I'm kind of hoping Charlie Clarke forces his way into the 22 sooner rather than later. I still think VDM could be that hard-arse small defender we need because right now we don't have many options on our list.