Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs

[1eyedog]

Whately's turn to swing the axe, even though he's sure to compliment Bevo at the end. I actually don't mind the criticism. We need it, maybe it will force us to think about some of the ways we go about things.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/10/05/gerard-whateley-delivers-honest-assessment-of-the-bulldogs/

Gerard Whateley has delivered his honest assessment of where the Western Bulldogs are at, saying they’ve got “one of the great midfields” but “nothing else”.

The Dogs were bundled out of the finals in week one for the second consecutive season, going down to St Kilda by three points at the Gabba on Saturday.


While the Dogs kicked four goals to one in the final term to close within touching distance of victory, Whateley believes the momentum shift was more to do with the opposition going into their shell rather them changing anything tactically.

“The last quarter, I think, is a con,” he said on SEN’s Whateley.

“St Kilda invited them back into the game and momentum was so heavily against, they went ultra conservative which is a crazy tactic but that’s what inexperienced finals teams will do.

“If you judge the Bulldogs on the last quarter, you fall for the same thing that people keep falling for (with the Bulldogs). They are way more than two pieces short.

“I’m going to borrow a phrase from someone I talk to, I think Luke Beveridge does a phenomenal job with what he’s got but I think he’s building a 1000-piece jigsaw (puzzle) with 920 pieces and convincing people that he’s got it under control because he’s such a good tactical and game day coach.

“The fact that they can’t vaguely challenge for the top four and now they can’t win elimination finals, I actually think that tells you everything you need to know and I reckon they’re a long way from it.

“They’re all midfield, I think they’ve got one of the great midfields and nothing else. Beveridge does all his work moving players to compensate for it and the most important result is the way he used Hayden Crozier (in the elimination final).

“He’s brilliant with the way he manipulates what he doesn’t have.”

[azabob]

Sedat will not be happy again.

Him and Gerard thinking along the same lines.

[jeemak]

Sedat will not be happy again.

Him and Gerard thinking along the same lines.

His cat doesn't know why it's been kicked on a Monday night!

[azabob]

It was an interesting discussion to listen to between him and Cornes.

[Sedat]

Sedat will not be happy again.

Him and Gerard thinking along the same lines.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day ;)

[The Bulldogs Bite]

It's a bit simplistic to say that and yet he's not entirely wrong.

Outside of our midfield, who would concern opposition coaches? Naughton yes but his output in finals is below poor. JJ? I'm not really sure anymore, maybe they're aware and as such put plans in place to curb his influence but that works almost every time. Daniel would be the other obvious candidate.

Outside of that we don't have big key defenders to worry opposition, we don't have an intercepting game to worry opposition, we don't have multiple goal kicking/dangerous forwards and we don't have high energy and pressuring forwards. We obviously don't have a dominant ruck.

Maybe I've overrated our list again too. Then again, I still feel like with some tweaks and additions, we can challenge top 4.

Our trading has been poor lately and we've simply brought in FAR too many half backs. Moving forward I don't think we should have Cordy OR Wood in our best side and I think we need to strongly reconsider how we use Daniel.

Daniel isn't our best player but he's the architect and I'd argue we are desperate to see him creating play in the middle of the ground and forward of center.

He's been very good in d50 but he can't move the ball 100m up the ground to the forwards and when he's having to dish it off to the likes of Dunkley, Macrae, Hunter etc to deliver inside 50, well, it should be the other way around.

Interesting 12 months ahead for this club in many ways. We've really put ourselves in this position, we need to climb out of mid table.

[DOG GOD]

It’s funny, my saints mate was very confident last week. He said he was VERY happy to be facing dogs than any other team in the 8. I asked him why he was so confident? I said was it because of their win in round 2? Because this is a FINAL!!!

And his response was simply along these lines....

“Ryder/Marshall will destroy English. Your Slow mids don’t run both ways. I’m very confident Membrey and King will have no worries with the dogs backline.”

Blind Freddy could see what was going to happen in the ruck. I wouldn’t say it 100% cost us the game, but it sure had a massive say in our loss. Not Tim’s fault. He’s just not a #1 ruckman. Lack of pace has been an issue all year and that why Vanda’s injury hurt a lot. And finally our defence. Cordy/Gardner with Keath is not gunna bring fear to any fwd line. All they had to do was kick it on their heads and our lack lustre defence would do the rest.

[FrediKanoute]

It’s funny, my saints mate was very confident last week. He said he was VERY happy to be facing dogs than any other team in the 8. I asked him why he was so confident? I said was it because of their win in round 2? Because this is a FINAL!!!

And his response was simply along these lines....

“Ryder/Marshall will destroy English. Your Slow mids don’t run both ways. I’m very confident Membrey and King will have no worries with the dogs backline.”

Blind Freddy could see what was going to happen in the ruck. I wouldn’t say it 100% cost us the game, but it sure had a massive say in our loss. Not Tim’s fault. He’s just not a #1 ruckman. Lack of pace has been an issue all year and that why Vanda’s injury hurt a lot. And finally our defence. Cordy/Gardner with Keath is not gunna bring fear to any fwd line. All they had to do was kick it on their heads and our lack lustre defence would do the rest.

Lack of pace. We are too one paced, Libba, Macrae, the Bont, Lippa, all good smart footballers, but none have pace. Bailey Smith has pace (quick feet and good accelleration), but we need more and we definitely need more if it in the forward line.

[jeemak]

I don't actually recall anyone within the four walls of the club openly suggesting we're anywhere near the finished product. Why do the media keep either overrating us or not consider that we went into the season with clear deficiencies and still have much to develop within our younger players?

Listen closely to the coach over time and he's stated clearly we're developing and wanting to get better as quickly as we can. What would we be saying about the capability of our list profile if we didn't win a flag four years ago, with a drastically different team?

In honesty after the Cats game I thought we should have been a week two or at best three proposition this year, and we fell short of the former disappointingly. But we played crap on the weekend and didn't really learn anything new about ourselves and almost still snuck home.

Finally, you can't suggest that one side gets to have an off portion of the game but another doesn't. St Kilda may have been off the boil for one quarter, but we were off the boil for three and almost did them. A bit of balance goes a long way to earning credibility.

[MrMahatma]

It’s a different angle and it gives food for thought. He’s right in that we dont have guns in every line. We don’t have key defenders or a fwd line that would scare anyone.

I wonder how much development of the likes of West and Weightman have been limited this year with no VFL, and how much more important exposed form is now for a trade in? I mean, this year could have thrown the development of the entire list out (less training as a team, fewer coaches etc) so do we need to be expecting slower or less development in players for a year or two? And thus trades in are more important/worth pursuing?

[bornadog]

Whatetley thinks he is an expert in every sport

[comrade]

It’s funny to see the media catching up only now on what some of us have been saying for months.

Whately’s lionising of Bevo is weird though, as if the personnel he’s playing isn’t his choice.

Anyway, good to see some heat applied. I doubt it will be the catalyst for any major changes or breakthroughs but we can dream.

[Mofra]

It’s funny to see the media catching up only now on what some of us have been saying for months.

Whately’s lionising of Bevo is weird though, as if the personnel he’s playing isn’t his choice.

As a club we've been chasing players outside of the midfield for years.
We picked up Lloyd, Crozier, Bruce and Keath at the trade table with varying degrees of success.

We've previously chased Hurley & Howard as KPDs and Martin and Wingard as forwards with class, we also chased Lobbe and Martin as rucks. I don't think we're stubborn and the club is simply happy with the list. We're always looking to improve.

[The bulldog tragician]

It's a bit simplistic to say that and yet he's not entirely wrong.

Outside of our midfield, who would concern opposition coaches? Naughton yes but his output in finals is below poor. JJ? I'm not really sure anymore, maybe they're aware and as such put plans in place to curb his influence but that works almost every time. Daniel would be the other obvious candidate.

Outside of that we don't have big key defenders to worry opposition, we don't have an intercepting game to worry opposition, we don't have multiple goal kicking/dangerous forwards and we don't have high energy and pressuring forwards. We obviously don't have a dominant ruck.

Maybe I've overrated our list again too. Then again, I still feel like with some tweaks and additions, we can challenge top 4.

Our trading has been poor lately and we've simply brought in FAR too many half backs. Moving forward I don't think we should have Cordy OR Wood in our best side and I think we need to strongly reconsider how we use Daniel.

Daniel isn't our best player but he's the architect and I'd argue we are desperate to see him creating play in the middle of the ground and forward of center.

He's been very good in d50 but he can't move the ball 100m up the ground to the forwards and when he's having to dish it off to the likes of Dunkley, Macrae, Hunter etc to deliver inside 50, well, it should be the other way around.

Interesting 12 months ahead for this club in many ways. We've really put ourselves in this position, we need to climb out of mid table.

I like your post in the main but I think it is too soon for this narrative on Naughton to take hold. He injured his knee in his first final, where the midfield were totally obliterated, and the fractured cheekbone was probably a big concern on Saturday - again our midfield were beaten, delivery was shocking and Bruce just could not keep out of his way!

[Bulldog4life]

It's a bit simplistic to say that and yet he's not entirely wrong.

Outside of our midfield, who would concern opposition coaches? Naughton yes but his output in finals is below poor. JJ? I'm not really sure anymore, maybe they're aware and as such put plans in place to curb his influence but that works almost every time. Daniel would be the other obvious candidate.

Outside of that we don't have big key defenders to worry opposition, we don't have an intercepting game to worry opposition, we don't have multiple goal kicking/dangerous forwards and we don't have high energy and pressuring forwards. We obviously don't have a dominant ruck.

Maybe I've overrated our list again too. Then again, I still feel like with some tweaks and additions, we can challenge top 4.

Our trading has been poor lately and we've simply brought in FAR too many half backs. Moving forward I don't think we should have Cordy OR Wood in our best side and I think we need to strongly reconsider how we use Daniel.

Daniel isn't our best player but he's the architect and I'd argue we are desperate to see him creating play in the middle of the ground and forward of center.

He's been very good in d50 but he can't move the ball 100m up the ground to the forwards and when he's having to dish it off to the likes of Dunkley, Macrae, Hunter etc to deliver inside 50, well, it should be the other way around.

Interesting 12 months ahead for this club in many ways. We've really put ourselves in this position, we need to climb out of mid table.


Agree entirely with this TBB. I am hoping Caleb trains with the mid field/forwards over the summer.

[bornadog]

Tony Libba rang SEN apparently to have a go at Gerard.


The 1990 Brownlow Medallist said Whateley’s comments were “flawed” and “totally out of line”.

“I just think we’re one or two players short,” Liberatore said.


“Is Aaron Naughton nothing? Is Tim English nothing? Give me Naughton any day over Tom Hawkins, right here, right now.


“He’s just come off from a broken cheekbone and he had a really good last quarter where he took three big pack marks and nearly won the game for us.


“Tom Hawkins kicked five behinds and was beaten by a player (Trent McKenzie) who was let go from Gold Coast and has done an amazing job from Port Adelaide.


“I just think your comments are flawed, I believe strongly in this and never rang up and mentioned this – I think we’re doing a good job and we’re just a couple of players short.


“How hard you went on us yesterday from my understanding from a friend of mine, is totally out of line.”

I agree with Tony, we are a few players short of being top 4, second ruck, Fullback, and small pressure forward.

[comrade]

I hope the club don't agree with Libba.

[SquirrelGrip]

Tony Libba rang SEN apparently to have a go at Gerard.

The 1990 Brownlow Medallist said Whateley’s comments were “flawed” and “totally out of line”.

“I just think we’re one or two players short,” Liberatore said.


“Is Aaron Naughton nothing? Is Tim English nothing? Give me Naughton any day over Tom Hawkins, right here, right now.


“He’s just come off from a broken cheekbone and he had a really good last quarter where he took three big pack marks and nearly won the game for us.


“Tom Hawkins kicked five behinds and was beaten by a player (Trent McKenzie) who was let go from Gold Coast and has done an amazing job from Port Adelaide.


“I just think your comments are flawed, I believe strongly in this and never rang up and mentioned this – I think we’re doing a good job and we’re just a couple of players short.


“How hard you went on us yesterday from my understanding from a friend of mine, is totally out of line.”

I agree with Tony, we are a few players short of being top 4, second ruck, Fullback, and small pressure forward.

Still love Tony Libba!

[dog town]

Gerard has pretty much nailed this as he usually does. The list needs some work, the only thing I’m confident in is that we have a top line coach. Bevo does have to take some responsibility for the list though as he would have to have a say in how deep we do/don’t cut.

[Rocket Science]

Whatetley thinks he is an expert in every sport

Whateley grates but not sure it takes an expert to voice the flaws we've laid bare in consecutive finals failures now, with middling seasons to match.


I hope the club don't agree with Libba.

Indeed. Unsure why Libba's suddenly so defensive but if the footy department's satisfied some tinkering will cure our ills we'll continue to tread water, or sink.

[bornadog]

Indeed. Unsure why Libba's suddenly so defensive but if the footy department's satisfied some tinkering will cure our ills we'll continue to tread water, or sink.

He didn't say some tinkering, he said a few players, which I agree on.

Are you and Comrade talking wholesale changes?

[comrade]

I'm talking the entire game plan needs scrapping and significant turn over of personnel from our EF team is required. Adding a genuine, mature ruck to partner with English is only the start.

The entire balance is out of whack. Our talls aren't tall or good enough. Our smalls aren't quick or skilful enough. Our forward line is full of slow, non forwards who can't tackle or create opportunity. Our backline is fragile, our defensive set up is completely exposed against good sides and relies on midfield dominance. We are stacked with mid sized half back flankers, yet none of them are weapons in the air or generate attack from half back intercepts.

Our trade strategy is flawed, with no slam dunk game changing inclusions in 4 years (Keath is closest). Our development of younger players is questionable (2020 has made this difficult so they get some leeway there). Which kid besides Vandermeer really jumped out of the box this year?

Our match selection seems nonsensical at times.

There are problems everywhere and we are destined for more mid table finishes if significant changes aren't made. If you can't see that after 4 years of the same results, we're watching a team through a completely different lens.

[josie]

Gotta love Libba & his passion. Kinda think truth is half way bw Whately & optimists.

Great to debate issues like this on woof. Different perspectives enrich forum.

[bornadog]

Gotta love Libba & his passion. Kinda think truth is half way bw Whately & optimists.

Great to debate issues like this on woof. Different perspectives enrich forum.

We have to be realistic as well.

[comrade]

We have to be realistic as well.

Yeah, that would be a breath of fresh air.

[MrMahatma]

Surely the stat that we’ve spent 2 weeks in the top 4 out of 80 weeks of footy says we’re a fair way off?

Don’t forget, most other teams will improve next year too. We need to make a step change in order to move up the ladder. It could be only 2 key players... but it could be a lot more, could be a full rework of game plan... but it needs to have an impact. A real impact.

Ultimately, the changes we’ve made in the past 12 months have made a net 0 impact.
We are, in real terms, no better off than last year... just a year older.

[comrade]

Surely the stat that we’ve spent 2 weeks in the top 4 out of 80 weeks of footy says we’re a fair way off?

Don’t forget, most other teams will improve next year too. We need to make a step change in order to move up the ladder. It could be only 2 key players... but it could be a lot more, could be a full rework of game plan... but it needs to have an impact. A real impact.

Ultimately, the changes we’ve made in the past 12 months have made a net 0 impact.
We are, in real terms, no better off than last year... just a year older.

I'd say we've gone back a step, in that we didn't really threaten any of the top 6 clubs this year at all.

[bornadog]

Surely the stat that we’ve spent 2 weeks in the top 4 out of 80 weeks of footy says we’re a fair way off?

Don’t forget, most other teams will improve next year too. We need to make a step change in order to move up the ladder. It could be only 2 key players... but it could be a lot more, could be a full rework of game plan... but it needs to have an impact. A real impact.

Ultimately, the changes we’ve made in the past 12 months have made a net 0 impact.
We are, in real terms, no better off than last year... just a year older.

We have to also remember, this has been a difficult year for not just us but every team with second tier competitions non existent.

This has stifled development of a lot of players. I feel sorry for the 1st and 2nd year players like Butler, Weightman, West to name a few. Even JUH who isn't even at the club yet - who knows how he goes. We are basing it all on a 17 year old, and at that age there is a big difference between 17, 18, 19 year olds.

[Rocket Science]

I'm talking the entire game plan needs scrapping and significant turn over of personnel from our EF team is required. Adding a genuine, mature ruck to partner with English is only the start.

The entire balance is out of whack. Our talls aren't tall or good enough. Our smalls aren't quick or skilful enough. Our forward line is full of slow, non forwards who can't tackle or create opportunity. Our backline is fragile, our defensive set up is completely exposed against good sides and relies on midfield dominance. We are stacked with mid sized half back flankers, yet none of them are weapons in the air or generate attack from half back intercepts.

Our trade strategy is flawed, with no slam dunk game changing inclusions in 4 years (Keath is closest). Our development of younger players is questionable (2020 has made this difficult so they get some leeway there). Which kid besides Vandermeer really jumped out of the box this year?

Our match selection seems nonsensical at times.

There are problems everywhere and we are destined for more mid table finishes if significant changes aren't made. If you can't see that after 4 years of the same results, we're watching a team through a completely different lens.

Bailey Williams was the other nice surprise this year but the stalled progress of a host of others continues to confound. Oddly, rather than picking over other team's scraps I forlornly believe the remedies to some of our problems already exist on the list but am losing faith we're able to competently maximise those assets, granted this year's been a write off, developmentally.

More broadly, how about a more durable game plan that's less volatile, less boom or bust? A plan our players are able to reliably execute for something closer to four quarters?

When inclined to wonder if that's just not Bevo's style I recall the sides we sent out in 2015 & 2016 that shared one reassuring trait, namely resilience when tested. We could take a punch, readjust if need be then answer back, showing the kind of character 'good' sides possessed and affirmed, shit, suddenly we were one of them.

Right now, however breathtaking our best footy is, nobody, NOBODY would approach us without thinking they're a chance because how can you trust us?

The gag about Sam Pang being nicknamed 'the Orchid' as a player because he needed absolutely perfect conditions to thrive feels like it was coined for us right now. This team's too talented for that to be its post-flag legacy.

[comrade]

The gag about Sam Pang being nicknamed 'the Orchid' as a player because he needed absolutely perfect conditions to thrive feels like it was coined for us right now. This team's too talented for that to be its post-flag legacy.

Geez, truth hurts but we are the Western Orchids right now.

[bornadog]

I'd say we've gone back a step, in that we didn't really threaten any of the top 6 clubs this year at all.

So we are worse than the team that played GWS in last years final?

[G-Mo77]

So we are worse than the team that played GWS in last years final?

I find it hard to grade it. I think we're about the same although I really thought towards the end of last season we looked pretty potent up forward.

[comrade]

So we are worse than the team that played GWS in last years final?

Whether we're worse or we've just stagnated/not improved is neither here nor there and it's arbritrary. You can argue I'm wrong, but you can't prove it.

The reality is we haven't progressed, and that's the problem.

[bornadog]

Whether we're worse or we've just stagnated/not improved is neither here nor there and it's arbritrary. You can argue I'm wrong, but you can't prove it.

The reality is we haven't progressed, and that's the problem.

But why say it?

[comrade]

But why say it?

Honestly, who cares?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Whether we’re worse or not is subjective but nobody could argue we’re better.

Put it this way, if we were playing a team of GWS’ 2019 EF capability, like say Saturday nights Richmond, we would have been smashed. The saints, whilst not a bad side, were not much chop. Our game was not up to finals standard. This years EF cannot be compared to last years. I hate that the close result has clouded some judgment on our performance.

[The Underdog]

So we are worse than the team that played GWS in last years final?

I’d argue that our form at the back end of last year (prior the the finals) was way ahead of anything we hit this year. So on that metric of our best footy then yeah, I’d suggest we possibly are.

[Rocket Science]

Geez, truth hurts but we are the Western Orchids right now.

Ah jeez, see what you made me do.

https://i.ibb.co/58LxNnM/CARNA-ORCHIDS.png (https://ibb.co/ncj8Hng)

Anyway, CARNA ORCHIDS.

[GVGjr]

So we are worse than the team that played GWS in last years final?

I don't think we are better, perhaps it's a line ball comparison or just leaning towards a bit worse
Remember we brought in two players to address our needs from the previous season and we haven't necessarily progressed

[DOG GOD]

I'm talking the entire game plan needs scrapping and significant turn over of personnel from our EF team is required. Adding a genuine, mature ruck to partner with English is only the start.

The entire balance is out of whack. Our talls aren't tall or good enough. Our smalls aren't quick or skilful enough. Our forward line is full of slow, non forwards who can't tackle or create opportunity. Our backline is fragile, our defensive set up is completely exposed against good sides and relies on midfield dominance. We are stacked with mid sized half back flankers, yet none of them are weapons in the air or generate attack from half back intercepts.

Our trade strategy is flawed, with no slam dunk game changing inclusions in 4 years (Keath is closest). Our development of younger players is questionable (2020 has made this difficult so they get some leeway there). Which kid besides Vandermeer really jumped out of the box this year?

Our match selection seems nonsensical at times.

There are problems everywhere and we are destined for more mid table finishes if significant changes aren't made. If you can't see that after 4 years of the same results, we're watching a team through a completely different lens.

Brilliant post Comrade. I agree 1000%

[jeemak]

If people are prepared to go back down the ladder to go forwards then scrapping the entire game plan is feasible. If they're not then it's not a great idea.

I agree that we need ruck support that can get into it right away, we also need another ready made key defender and specialist forward as minimum requirements. Finding all three of these ready made players who actually improve us is going to be a tough ask and it's not like we haven't been trying, rather, we've just not been an attractive destination or not willing to pay the required price to get it done.

If we do want to spend the big dollars other players are going to be squeezed out over time if not immediately, and that's I suppose the gamble we've got to be willing to take.

[azabob]

If people are prepared to go back down the ladder to go forwards then scrapping the entire game plan is feasible. If they're not then it's not a great idea.

I agree that we need ruck support that can get into it right away, we also need another ready made key defender and specialist forward as minimum requirements. Finding all three of these ready made players who actually improve us is going to be a tough ask and it's not like we haven't been trying, rather, we've just not been an attractive destination or not willing to pay the required price to get it done.

If we do want to spend the big dollars other players are going to be squeezed out over time if not immediately, and that's I suppose the gamble we've got to be willing to take.

Gee you are boring, pragmatic and realistic at a reasonable hour of the day.

I much prefer the 2am version of Jeemak where anything is possible.

On the bolded bit do we need to revisit your popular thread TRADE DUNKLEY (funnily enough created after midnight). Perhaps not Dunkely but another high profile player?

[bornadog]

If people are prepared to go back down the ladder to go forwards then scrapping the entire game plan is feasible. If they're not then it's not a great idea.

I agree that we need ruck support that can get into it right away, we also need another ready made key defender and specialist forward as minimum requirements. Finding all three of these ready made players who actually improve us is going to be a tough ask and it's not like we haven't been trying, rather, we've just not been an attractive destination or not willing to pay the required price to get it done.

If we do want to spend the big dollars other players are going to be squeezed out over time if not immediately, and that's I suppose the gamble we've got to be willing to take.

That was also my suggestion, but some want to burn down the club and start again.

[comrade]

Lol let’s find a gun ruck, key defender and small forward and everything will be solved. Someone email the club.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

That was also my suggestion, but some want to burn down the club and start again.

There’s never a middle ground in this world is there? The pendulum effect seems to be unbreakable.

[comrade]

There’s never a middle ground in this world is there? The pendulum effect seems to be unbreakable.

No one has suggested burning down the club, but some choose to see any criticism from the most extreme POV possible.

We could just keep doing what we’ve been doing the past 4 years and peak at 7th/8th on the ladder. That’s worked out well for North Melbourne this decade.

[bornadog]

No one has suggested burning down the club, but some choose to see any criticism from the most extreme POV possible.

We could just keep doing what we’ve been doing the past 4 years and peak at 7th/8th on the ladder. That’s worked out well for North Melbourne this decade.

Comrade, you know what your saying won't happen. How about some realistic suggestions that we can discuss. No one is happy losing finals and we all want the club to do better.

We have limited draft picks and we need to get JUH to the club, so wholesale changes is difficult.

[jeemak]

Lol let’s find a gun ruck, key defender and small forward and everything will be solved. Someone email the club.

Yes, because that's what my post was implying...…..

What I'm saying is they're our priorities, and that it's going to be tough to get players who fit the bill and will materially impact our performance next year. But, we should also look for anyone who can improve us incrementally or otherwise as well.

As an extension to that I think if we do scrap the game plan like you suggested if we can't get in players who can help us bring another game plan online, we're going to take considerable time to adjust and be competitive.

[comrade]

Yes, because that's what my post was implying...…..

What I'm saying is they're our priorities, and that it's going to be tough to get players who fit the bill and will materially impact our performance next year. But, we should also look for anyone who can improve us incrementally or otherwise as well.

As an extension to that I think if we do scrap the game plan like you suggested if we can't get in players who can help us bring another game plan online, we're going to take considerable time to adjust and be competitive.

I would actually accept taking a step backwards next season if it meant developing a game plan that was better suited to standing up against quality sides, and didn’t rely on perfect conditions for us to implement effectively.

[jeemak]

I would actually accept taking a step backwards next season if it meant developing a game plan that was better suited to standing up against quality sides, and didn’t rely on perfect conditions for us to implement effectively.

I don't know how long it would take, my feeling is longer than a season but you never know.

Things like sticking tackles and communicating how to deal with an aerial ball in defence aren't necessarily game plan issues, they're personnel/ training issues and I think they can be resolved and wouldn't need a change in how we play to do so. Get these things right and we are immediately better.

I also think that with these things fixed we wouldn't have to play so perfectly not to be exposed, and hopefully with Naughton and Bruce having another preseason training together some chemistry will materialise in the forward line.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

No one has suggested burning down the club, but some choose to see any criticism from the most extreme POV possible.

We could just keep doing what we’ve been doing the past 4 years and peak at 7th/8th on the ladder. That’s worked out well for North Melbourne this decade.

I know :)

I agree that we don’t want to tread water for years. I’d also prefer to take a step back if it meant we actually contend rather than muddle away at 6th-10th. It’s going to be difficult to bring in talent to fill our many holes but shrewd recruiting can work wonders as the saints have shown. Also, I think new game plans can be achieved relatively quickly. Look what happened with us in 2015 under Bevo and even the saints this year under Ratten.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Whilst I don’t like our makeup in the forward line, I actually think our forward issues are a result of issues further upfield.

[DOG GOD]

Whilst I don’t like our makeup in the forward line, I actually think our forward issues are a result of issues further upfield.

The problem with our fwd line is it is probably the slowest in the AFL.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

The problem with our fwd line is it is probably the slowest in the AFL.

It is, but our midfield is also quite slow and add to that, the majority can’t kick. So it’s extremely difficult for a forward to get clean delivery. Aside from the north game I don’t remember much clean and open delivery apart from a few Bont bullets from centre clearances. The rest are wonky kicks from the likes of Dunkley, Hunter and Macrae after a congested buildup that sees 10 defenders already parked in our 50. The resultant easy clearance leads to an easy transition goal made easier by the fact our defenders are guarding space.

[Bulldog Revolution]

The problem with our fwd line is it is probably the slowest in the AFL.

Thats part of the issue, but our ball movement and method - final kick inside 50 needs a lot of work over the summer

[azabob]

Thats part of the issue, but our ball movement and method - final kick inside 50 needs a lot of work over the summer

Agree 100% BR. Ball movement, method and delivery is a lot more important than speed of foot.

[DOG GOD]

Agree 100% BR. Ball movement, method and delivery is a lot more important than speed of foot.

But do we have the players with the skill set to do this?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

But do we have the players with the skill set to do this?

We have Bont. Smith should be able to but for whatever reason his skills plummeted in the back half of this season. The problems are Hunter, Macrae and Dunkley. Our better users are at half back.

[dog town]

Bonts ball use was awful this year. Tries to kick the eyes out of the ball every time.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Bonts ball use was awful this year. Tries to kick the eyes out of the ball every time.

Yeah it wasn’t up to his usual standards. But he’s got the ability as does Smith. The other 3 I mentioned just don’t have it. Carrying 1 like say Dunkley is fine, but having to carry 3 guys who get lots of the ball makes it hard to get clean use going inside 50. No wonder we got rid of Dahl.

[hujsh]

Macrae and Hunter can use the ball. I think they'll look like much better users if we have a better system forward that gives them targets to hit or alternatively a long bail out option that's a decent chance to take the contested mark 1v1 or if not bring the ball to ground.

Dunks is probably a bit worse but he can hit up a target when there are actually targets to hit.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Macrae and Hunter can use the ball. I think they'll look like much better users if we have a better system forward that gives them targets to hit or alternatively a long bail out option that's a decent chance to take the contested mark 1v1 or if not bring the ball to ground.

Dunks is probably a bit worse but he can hit up a target when there are actually targets to hit.

So what’s the source of the problem of no targets then? Why did we see just two games (against north and Adelaide) where we had any sort of space and fluid ball movement into our 50? Is that simply because of the inferior opposition? Do the better teams know that clogging our 50 is so effective because our forwards are hopeless? If so that’s and easy win each week for them. I don’t buy it though. Bruce has played in functioning forward lines. He’s been around long enough. Wally is a smart guy. They can’t be that inept at knowing where to be and staying out of each others way.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

So what’s the source of the problem of no targets then? Why did we see just two games (against north and Adelaide) where we had any sort of space and fluid ball movement into our 50? Is that simply because of the inferior opposition? Do the better teams know that clogging our 50 is so effective because our forwards are hopeless? If so that’s and easy win each week for them. I don’t buy it though. Bruce has played in functioning forward lines. He’s been around long enough. Wally is a smart guy. They can’t be that inept at knowing where to be and staying out of each others way.

Its a puzzler, but the common theme when I have watched them live this year is how often our forwards, before the player upfield disposes of the ball, either:
a) don't move...OR
b) when they do, they seem to converge on top of each other.

It's even more frustrating when I'd then see the opposition forward line be able to generate space to be hit on the lead

[DOG GOD]

Do we move Daniel to a wing and JJ to a hff ?

[DOG GOD]

So what’s the source of the problem of no targets then? Why did we see just two games (against north and Adelaide) where we had any sort of space and fluid ball movement into our 50? Is that simply because of the inferior opposition? Do the better teams know that clogging our 50 is so effective because our forwards are hopeless? If so that’s and easy win each week for them. I don’t buy it though. Bruce has played in functioning forward lines. He’s been around long enough. Wally is a smart guy. They can’t be that inept at knowing where to be and staying out of each others way.

I agree, it’s obviously the delivery into the fwd 50 that’s the problem. It’s either too slow, or the kicking is lacklustre. As good as macrae can be getting the ball, 80% of his kicks are bag of wheat floaters. We seriously need great users of the ball.

[hujsh]

So what’s the source of the problem of no targets then? Why did we see just two games (against north and Adelaide) where we had any sort of space and fluid ball movement into our 50? Is that simply because of the inferior opposition? Do the better teams know that clogging our 50 is so effective because our forwards are hopeless? If so that’s and easy win each week for them. I don’t buy it though. Bruce has played in functioning forward lines. He’s been around long enough. Wally is a smart guy. They can’t be that inept at knowing where to be and staying out of each others way.

Might be partly forward structure, might be partly how we move the ball forward. It's harder to say not having seen us play live in over a year.

We have shown at times that we can hit up our forwards on the lead and kick some big scores but that doesn't tend to last against better teams

[hujsh]

I agree, it’s obviously the delivery into the fwd 50 that’s the problem. It’s either too slow, or the kicking is lacklustre. As good as macrae can be getting the ball, 80% of his kicks are bag of wheat floaters. We seriously need great users of the ball.

It could be as simple as actually kicking the ball. Sometimes we just handball more than we need to. Lipinski was a good example when he had a little space at f50 and needed to take the kick but instead handballed to Bont who was immediately tacked because he had no space from his opponent.

[azabob]

Do we move Daniel to a wing and JJ to a hff ?

Yes and no.

In theory HB is easier to play thank HF, JJ would struggle no end.

[DOG GOD]

It could be as simple as actually kicking the ball. Sometimes we just handball more than we need to. Lipinski was a good example when he had a little space at f50 and needed to take the kick but instead handballed to Bont who was immediately tacked because he had no space from his opponent.

I agree. Lipinski should’ve had a shot. A lot of our players are deers in headlights when they reach the 40-50 metre range. They have to get it into their heads that they have free reign to have a shot, especially if they are dead in front, running directly toward goal.

Let’s look at the first quarter against Geel, where we looked fantastic. Why? We moved the ball quickly, not overusing handball, getting into 50 quickly, and when faced with a defensive wall, hand balling back just enough for “that guy” to have a shot. That’s pretty much the only time I saw that this year. Obviously Geelong changed tactics at quarter time, but I also think we went into our shell to “save” the game instead of putting the foot on the throat.

I really liked the look of JJ wing/hf. He looked rejuvenated and his pace would be ideal coming off a wing/hf. Put that with Daniel in the front half and we already change the delivery/pace of our delivery into 50.

We also need a “leader” in our fwd 50 and I’m really hoping we go hard at Breust or Gunston. Their knowledge and experience is something we are desperate for.

[DOG GOD]

Yes and no.

In theory HB is easier to play thank HF, JJ would struggle no end.

Struggle in what way?

[azabob]

Struggle in what way?

To actually get the football, impact the game and hit the scoreboard.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

It could be as simple as actually kicking the ball. Sometimes we just handball more than we need to. Lipinski was a good example when he had a little space at f50 and needed to take the kick but instead handballed to Bont who was immediately tacked because he had no space from his opponent.

That was a horrendous decision from Pat.

[comrade]

That was a horrendous decision from Pat.

Just doesn't have the temperament for finals footy. Should have rolled the dice on VDM.

[DOG GOD]

To actually get the football, impact the game and hit the scoreboard.

I see where you’re coming from but I don’t think he would have a problem hitting the scoreboard if he had opportunities to. At least he’s one of our rare players that can kick 50 on the run. And what I like most about him, is that given an opportunity for a goal he’s normally running directly at goal, none of this pocket BS.

[bornadog]

I agree, it’s obviously the delivery into the fwd 50 that’s the problem. It’s either too slow, or the kicking is lacklustre. As good as macrae can be getting the ball, 80% of his kicks are bag of wheat floaters. We seriously need great users of the ball.

I think the issue is more conversion than anything. We are 4th in the AFL for marks inside 50, just above Saints, so we are hitting targets alot of the time. On Saturday, Wally missed two gettables, Hunter hit the post and Smith missed one from 20 metres out dead in front. Having said that we had 742 inside 50s for 169 marks and 168 goals, 159 behinds. The leader was Richmond with 842 inside 50s for 180 marks but only 172 goals, 159 behinds.

One thing this season was the running patterns inside 50 between Naughton and Bruce. Naughton missed a lot of games plus their were 5 fewer H&A games which meant the two of them have not worked enough together to get some sort of rappor going.

However, it is really annoying when guys like Macrae, Lippa and a few others won't have a shot at goal and keep looking for someone closer to goal. I would rather they had a ping and missed than getting caught with the ball and resulting in a turnover and 12 point turnaround.

[azabob]

I think the issue is more conversion than anything. We are 4th in the AFL for marks inside 50, just above Saints, so we are hitting targets alot of the time. On Saturday, Wally missed two gettables, Hunter hit the post and Smith missed one from 20 metres out dead in front. Having said that we had 742 inside 50s for 169 marks and 168 goals, 159 behinds. The leader was Richmond with 842 inside 50s for 180 marks but only 172 goals, 159 behinds.

One thing this season was the running patterns inside 50 between Naughton and Bruce. Naughton missed a lot of games plus their were 5 fewer H&A games which meant the two of them have not worked enough together to get some sort of rappor going.

However, it is really annoying when guys like Macrae, Lippa and a few others won't have a shot at goal and keep looking for someone closer to goal. I would rather they had a ping and missed than getting caught with the ball and resulting in a turnover and 12 point turnaround.

It is also where we are taking our shots at goal from. I'm sure there is a stat out there which shows the likelihood of kicking a goal V kicking a point.

On the bolded bit, this is also so frustrating. So often one too many handballs and we turn it over. It is systemic through the whole F50.

The handball typically is moving forward it is going backwards.

The general rule should be, no more than one handball backwards in each passage of play.

[bornadog]

It is also where we are taking our shots at goal from. I'm sure there is a stat out there which shows the likelihood of kicking a goal V kicking a point.

On the bolded bit, this is also so frustrating. So often one too many handballs and we turn it over. It is systemic through the whole F50.

The handball typically is moving forward it is going backwards.

The general rule should be, no more than one handball backwards in each passage of play.

Also other factors are the pressure being applied by the opposing team and forcing the handballs, but in general there are too many handballs.

[soupman]

That was a horrendous decision from Pat.

To be fair Macrae did the exact same thing earlier in the game to Pat, so I think it's more symptomatic of our teams approach to inside 50s than a Lipinski, who is usually good at this stuff, issue.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

To be fair Macrae did the exact same thing earlier in the game to Pat, so I think it's more symptomatic of our teams approach to inside 50s than a Lipinski, who is usually good at this stuff, issue.

Yeah we've seen it all season. It must be a directive from the coaches to pass as much as possible to get the best % shot on goal. Unfortunately it's leading to players second guessing themselves and making the wrong decision.

[DOG GOD]

I understand the “team play” etc, but we have to have confident players if we are going to be a force. As I’ve said previously, a lot of our players are deer in headlights once they pass that 50 line. It needs to be drilled in to them to back themselves and go for the big sticks, especially running directly at goal. JJ is a good one with this. Others need to follow suit. Problem is, some can’t kick 50 so have to look at passing anyway.

The simple fact is, if opposition are going to flood, the easiest way to score is kick over it, not thru it.

[Mofra]

Also other factors are the pressure being applied by the opposing team and forcing the handballs, but in general there are too many handballs.
Roarke Smith had a shot on goal chance against St Kilda, but chose to handball and we fluffed it.
Confidence?

[WBFC4FFC]

Overall, the game plan is about playing the game on our terms at our end of the ground. More times than not, playing the percentages this way should lead to a victory. It's a team game-plan where you don't rely on individual brilliance. Thus, if there are any weaknesses they get exposed.

Point is as much as English needs help against the more physical Rucks at present, Bevo is not going to grab a guy who solely plays Ruck and that's it. Every player must be able to fill a second-role at a high level. Thus i am not sure who they would target as a second Ruck, noting Trengove should be able to do this role but was only given a game this year. (Pretty sure we would not have been able to beat Bris in Ballarat last year against Martin in the Ruck if English played).

The Ruck Rule change has made the big strong Ruckman come to the fore and we got lucky this year playing Melb and West Coke missing Gawn and Natanui respectively. I reckon in the Final Bevo should have put Bruce in the middle at half-time, like he did against the Dee's. English is dangerous up forward and they should exploit him where he is best suited when up against the Gorillas of the comp!

PS: Not sold on Goldstein. English towelled him up and he is mobile like English, just shorter.

[bornadog]

Overall, the game plan is about playing the game on our terms at our end of the ground. More times than not, playing the percentages this way should lead to a victory. It's a team game-plan where you don't rely on individual brilliance. Thus, if there are any weaknesses they get exposed.

Point is as much as English needs help against the more physical Rucks at present, Bevo is not going to grab a guy who solely plays Ruck and that's it. Every player must be able to fill a second-role at a high level. Thus i am not sure who they would target as a second Ruck, noting Trengove should be able to do this role but was only given a game this year. (Pretty sure we would not have been able to beat Bris in Ballarat last year against Martin in the Ruck if English played).

The Ruck Rule change has made the big strong Ruckman come to the fore and we got lucky this year playing Melb and West Coke missing Gawn and Natanui respectively. I reckon in the Final Bevo should have put Bruce in the middle at half-time, like he did against the Dee's. English is dangerous up forward and they should exploit him where he is best suited when up against the Gorillas of the comp!

PS: Not sold on Goldstein. English towelled him up and he is mobile like English, just shorter.

Good assessment.