Can someone (please) explain to me the reason we would trade for Stef Martin (or another ruck only player).

[mjp]

I keep reading we are planning to trade for Stef Martin.

I don't get it.

Setting aside his pretty ordinary year (he was injured) and his age (it's not like dynamic athleticism is his go AND he was pretty lightly raced in his first few years at Melbourne), if we recruit a player who can pretty much ONLY play in the ruck then he WILL NOT PLAY.

If Martin plays, he would need to do 70% in the ruck - because if he is not rucking he needs to be on the pine. That's simple facts. If he was going to make it as a ruckman forward, he would have done it before now. He hasn't, so he wont. Playing him forward would be like playing Easton Wood forward - an interesting experiment and talking point but one where you are pretty much guaranteed a negative result.

OK - fine. So English plays 60% forward, 30% ruck, 10% pine. Interesting. His best attribute would seem to be taking defensive marks in a kbp role (sorry - kick-behind-play). We have just taken that away from him. He is officially in Naughton's way, it also means Bruce prob cant get a game and - nor can Schache or Young.

I'll be honest - I don't get it. If we recruit a ruckman who is a 'ruck only' player, they are going to play in the VFL (or whatever T2 competition exists post COVID). I would kind of understand someone like Mason Cox because he can ruck (yeah, yeah, snicker snicker - being not as good in the ruck as Brodie Grundy doesn't mean you are terrible at it) and he can also play forward. McEvoy interested me because he can obviously play back and has taken marks forward in the past. McInerney from Brisbane would have interested me (forward) likewise Blicavs, Sinclair from Sydney, Ladhams from Port...but the likes of Draper, Goldstein, etc - well...they are ruckman and ruckman only.

If you want a ruck-only ruckman, well - to me you are saying the days of playing English are over...I just can't see it.

Please explain to me how Martin (or Goldstein, or Draper etc) fits in the same side as English in 2021.

[1eyedog]

I keep reading we are planning to trade for Stef Martin.

I don't get it.

Setting aside his pretty ordinary year (he was injured) and his age (it's not like dynamic athleticism is his go AND he was pretty lightly raced in his first few years at Melbourne), if we recruit a player who can pretty much ONLY play in the ruck then he WILL NOT PLAY.

If Martin plays, he would need to do 70% in the ruck - because if he is not rucking he needs to be on the pine. That's simple facts. If he was going to make it as a ruckman forward, he would have done it before now. He hasn't, so he wont. Playing him forward would be like playing Easton Wood forward - an interesting experiment and talking point but one where you are pretty much guaranteed a negative result.

OK - fine. So English plays 60% forward, 30% ruck, 10% pine. Interesting. His best attribute would seem to be taking defensive marks in a kbp role (sorry - kick-behind-play). We have just taken that away from him. He is officially in Naughton's way, it also means Bruce prob cant get a game and - nor can Schache or Young.

I'll be honest - I don't get it. If we recruit a ruckman who is a 'ruck only' player, they are going to play in the VFL (or whatever T2 competition exists post COVID). I would kind of understand someone like Mason Cox because he can ruck (yeah, yeah, snicker snicker - being not as good in the ruck as Brodie Grundy doesn't mean you are terrible at it) and he can also play forward. McEvoy interested me because he can obviously play back and has taken marks forward in the past. McInerney from Brisbane would have interested me (forward) likewise Blicavs, Sinclair from Sydney, Ladhams from Port...but the likes of Draper, Goldstein, etc - well...they are ruckman and ruckman only.

If you want a ruck-only ruckman, well - to me you are saying the days of playing English are over...I just can't see it.

Please explain to me how Martin (or Goldstein, or Draper etc) fits in the same side as English in 2021.

One of Bruce or Naughton has to play back and it works. We're essentially telling English he is a key forward in 2021.

[dog town]

I keep reading we are planning to trade for Stef Martin.

I don't get it.

Setting aside his pretty ordinary year (he was injured) and his age (it's not like dynamic athleticism is his go AND he was pretty lightly raced in his first few years at Melbourne), if we recruit a player who can pretty much ONLY play in the ruck then he WILL NOT PLAY.

If Martin plays, he would need to do 70% in the ruck - because if he is not rucking he needs to be on the pine. That's simple facts. If he was going to make it as a ruckman forward, he would have done it before now. He hasn't, so he wont. Playing him forward would be like playing Easton Wood forward - an interesting experiment and talking point but one where you are pretty much guaranteed a negative result.

OK - fine. So English plays 60% forward, 30% ruck, 10% pine. Interesting. His best attribute would seem to be taking defensive marks in a kbp role (sorry - kick-behind-play). We have just taken that away from him. He is officially in Naughton's way, it also means Bruce prob cant get a game and - nor can Schache or Young.

I'll be honest - I don't get it. If we recruit a ruckman who is a 'ruck only' player, they are going to play in the VFL (or whatever T2 competition exists post COVID). I would kind of understand someone like Mason Cox because he can ruck (yeah, yeah, snicker snicker - being not as good in the ruck as Brodie Grundy doesn't mean you are terrible at it) and he can also play forward. McEvoy interested me because he can obviously play back and has taken marks forward in the past. McInerney from Brisbane would have interested me (forward) likewise Blicavs, Sinclair from Sydney, Ladhams from Port...but the likes of Draper, Goldstein, etc - well...they are ruckman and ruckman only.

If you want a ruck-only ruckman, well - to me you are saying the days of playing English are over...I just can't see it.

Please explain to me how Martin (or Goldstein, or Draper etc) fits in the same side as English in 2021. Agree that it never made sense to go for a full time ruck unless we are planning on playing English forward full time. It’s probably the reason we had to use the tactics we did this year so it’s odd that we appear to have changed those thoughts. A forward ruck in the Cox/Ryder mould would make more sense.

The other aspect of this is that Martin has generally played his best footy as the sole ruck. I went back and watched a few games today where he went forward and he was incredibly ineffective. If he is a back up then I can handle it but I’m not sure how we fit him and English in without wasting a spot in the 22 or getting our balance horribly wrong.

[jazzadogs]

I worry we have been blinded a bit by being able to get him on the cheap. Is he better than Trengrove?

I was keen on Casboult, who offers more as a forward/around the ground, and would have been similarly cheap.

[Sedat]

If the ruckman is Goldy, that is a significant upgrade on English. Tim can play predominantly forward and frankly Bruce can play for Footscray unless he beats the door down in pre-season.

Martin is ok as a #1 ruck on paper but he honestly looks cooked.

If we go into 2021 with English as our #1 ruck, we are destined to be disappointed at the business end of the season once again.

[mjp]

One of Bruce or Naughton has to play back and it works. We're essentially telling English he is a key forward in 2021.

That just seems dumb. We've just bled for 3-years with him playing as #1 ruck and NOW we move him forward? When he has done all his training, learning etc as a ruckman?

If we wanted him to play predominantly forward that process should have started when he first got to the club.

Talk about being the "Lords of the after-thought". I sincerely hope I am wrong about this but if we have Martin I just see him and Sweet (and Young, and Schache) all playing 2's and the senior side looking exactly like it did in 2020.

[soupman]

The first big question is can English contribute enough playing just 30% game time in the ruck? I think he can.

He is great with ball in hand, moves around the ground well, can take marks up forward as good as any other second ruck (low bar i know) and has shown an ability to drift forward to do so as well (I know that is while playing as a ruck on a ruckman but it does show he is able to contribute something there). His most effective games have been when he has also been an aerial presence drifting back as you say, which is certainly going to be impacted by him not playing ruck as much, but maybe that's offset by what other benefits he brings and the overall change to the side playing two rucks offers.

We have quite often lacked a target who can work up the ground as a viable bail out option and help us constructively move the ball forward. Naughton can do this, but we seem to like playing him deeper, despite that also being where we prefer Bruce. If we are going to persist with keeping Naughton playing deep then I think having a mobile tall target we can hit up like English helps give us more structure going forward, a bit like how St.Kilda are able to use Marshall. Can English do that well? I don't know, but I think it's worth finding out. Also even if he is slow and ineffective as the third tall forward he is probably still going to contribute more than whoever else would take his spot in the side. It isn't like we are dropping Tory Dickson in his prime to play English as a second ruck.

So I do think that English is worth trying in a role where he only gets 30% rucktime.

Now onto Martin being the actual target, I'm not sold on him being an AFL player anymore but picking a pure ruck is not an issue I have. Ideally he contributes on field, teaches English off field, and buys English/Sweet/any young ruckman we pick up a year to mature. I am hugely skeptical on the viability of English as a number one ruck going forward, so maybe the benefit of Martin being a 34 year old who's career is virtually over is that it gives us a chance to try this kind of setup for a season before committing to it as our long term strategy as we would've had we brought in Goldstein/Draper etc. My preference would still have been to back ourselves in and grab one of those guys, but at least this is recognition that what we are currently doing isn't working and is a half hearted attempt to fix it.

Also the alternative is we go into the season with the same flawed ruck setup of 2020, and that's just depressing. At least if we pick up Martin I can spend the pre-season pretending we are gonna be better.

Now whether or not the double ruck idea sticks or goes the way of the much hyped "three pillars attack of Bruce, Naughton and Schache", or Martin spends the entire year injured/playing as a second ruck for no apparent reason/emailing Dodoro to see if his brother can try out their spongy floors remains to be seen, but surely forcing a potentially washed up ruckman into our lineup so English can pretend to be a forward has to be a good thing....right?

[bornadog]

If the ruckman is Goldy, that is a significant upgrade on English. Tim can play predominantly forward and frankly Bruce can play for Footscray unless he beats the door down in pre-season.

Martin is ok as a #1 ruck on paper but he honestly looks cooked.

If we go into 2021 with English as our #1 ruck, we are destined to be disappointed at the business end of the season once again.

yes spot on. Its commendable we are looking for an established ruck, but I agree with the OP, I feel Martin is cooked. Last year Trengove held his own against Martin and broke even in hitouts at Ballarat. I wish it was a different ruckman we were after, like a Goldy.

All I can see Martin do is be an on/off field coach to help English. On the other hand, who else is available?

[GVGjr]

I'm actually very supportive of bringing in a ruckman for a year or two allowing us pick English on form. Just having Martin around English and Sweet each week can only help with their development and they both need that.

I would have preferred someone like Coleman-Jones who is someone we 'could' potentially plan in tandem with English but that would make our forward line a bit slower than I think we want
The fact that we are looking to bring Hannan in probably rules out using English and Martin in tandem anyway

Perhaps there is another deal bubbling away in the background that will help fit the pieces a bit better

[mjp]

I'm actually very supportive of bringing in a ruckman for a year or two allowing us pick English on form. Just having Martin around English and Sweet each week can only help with their development and they both need that.



I'm just going to leave this here: https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/teams/afl/coaching-staff/steven-king/

Please explain why we need a mentor player when we have a former high level AFL ruckman on the coaching staff...

Here's the team we rolled out vs the Saints. How exactly would Martin do anything except replace Trengove in the emergencies?

B: Easton Wood, Alex Keath, Caleb Daniel
HB: Bailey Williams, Ryan Gardner, Hayden Crozier
C: Bailey Smith, Jack Macrae, Jason Johannisen
HF: Ed Richards, Josh Bruce, Mitch Wallis
F: Tom Liberatore, Aaron Naughton, Lachie Hunter
Foll: Tim English, Marcus Bontempelli, Josh Dunkley
Int: Zaine Cordy, Taylor Duryea, Pat Lipinski, Roarke Smith
Emer: Jackson Trengove, Laitham Vandermeer, Billy Gowers, Bailey Dale

[1eyedog]

That just seems dumb. We've just bled for 3-years with him playing as #1 ruck and NOW we move him forward? When he has done all his training, learning etc as a ruckman?

If we wanted him to play predominantly forward that process should have started when he first got to the club.

Talk about being the "Lords of the after-thought". I sincerely hope I am wrong about this but if we have Martin I just see him and Sweet (and Young, and Schache) all playing 2's and the senior side looking exactly like it did in 2020.

I do agree and think Bevo got it wrong playing him as the lone ruckman for so long. It seems we're now committed to him operating as an understudy for a year. This should of happened much earlier. I'm not sure what the answer is but bringing Martin in is very reactive and reeks of Bevo being overruled on a failed methodology.

English won't unlearn what he's learnt and hopefully his craft is enhanced by having a real ruckman at the club for a year. The English situation has been a dropped bowl of jelly but is there even a right answer to this now?

[GVGjr]

I'm just going to leave this here: https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/teams/afl/coaching-staff/steven-king/

Please explain why we need a mentor player when we have a former high level AFL ruckman on the coaching staff...



Simply speaking King can't compete with them on the training track and I would say English in particular would benefit by competing with a ruckman of Martin's experience in most of the training sessions

As for the team, we have been unbalanced for a couple of seasons now and Martin or not, that won't change

[comrade]

I'm just going to leave this here: https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/teams/afl/coaching-staff/steven-king/

Please explain why we need a mentor player when we have a former high level AFL ruckman on the coaching staff...

Here's the team we rolled out vs the Saints. How exactly would Martin do anything except replace Trengove in the emergencies?

B: Easton Wood, Alex Keath, Caleb Daniel
HB: Bailey Williams, Ryan Gardner, Hayden Crozier
C: Bailey Smith, Jack Macrae, Jason Johannisen
HF: Tim English, Josh Bruce, Mitch Wallis
F: Tom Liberatore, Aaron Naughton, Lachie Hunter
Foll: Stef Martin, Marcus Bontempelli, Josh Dunkley
Int: Zaine Cordy, Taylor Duryea, Pat Lipinski, Ed Richards
Emer: Jackson Trengove, Laitham Vandermeer, Billy Gowers, Bailey Dale

Martin to ruck, English as high forward/second ruck, Richards to the bench and Roarke Smith dropped.

And we would have won, given Martin would have at least neutralised a few ruck contests that Ryder completely destroyed English in, and English could have provided some extra height around the ground and forward to stop the zillion contested and intercept marks the Saints took.

[mjp]

As for the team, we have been unbalanced for a couple of seasons now and Martin or not, that won't change

There are already 5x players in that side who literally CANNOT get a kick.
- Richards
- Wood
- Bruce
- Gardner
- Cordy

A harsh person would add Naughton (low possession forward), Crozier (based on 2nd half of season), JJ (tagged out whenever the opposition want), Wallis (low possession forward), Lipinski (again, 2nd half of year) and Smith (R version) to the list of 5...

And now we are adding another? I disagree mate - I think we actually can make things worse. If we go into a game with a spare ruck then that means even more flicking guys around between back, mid and forward to get them a breather and with so many low possession players in the group...

We have English. We need a player who can flip-flop between ruck and forward and make a fist of things. That is why I said we should target Jackson and throw the kitchen sink at him...I would actually have a crack at getting Sinclair out of Sydney - he CAN play as a forward and would also play the role of competing at training as you suggest (not that they ever work too hard in-season in any case). As for why JT couldn't have/hasn't been playing that role in the last couple of seasons, well, I don't really understand why he hasn't or more to the point why you would think he hasn't??

[comrade]

There are already 5x players in that side who literally CANNOT get a kick.
- Richards
- Wood
- Bruce
- Gardner
- Cordy

A harsh person would add Naughton (low possession forward), Crozier (based on 2nd half of season), JJ (tagged out whenever the opposition want), Wallis (low possession forward), Lipinski (again, 2nd half of year) and Smith (R version) to the list of 5...

And now we are adding another? I disagree mate - I think we actually can make things worse. If we go into a game with a spare ruck then that means even more flicking guys around between back, mid and forward to get them a breather and with so many low possession players in the group...

We have English. We need a player who can flip-flop between ruck and forward and make a fist of things. That is why I said we should target Jackson and throw the kitchen sink at him...I would actually have a crack at getting Sinclair out of Sydney - he CAN play as a forward and would also play the role of competing at training as you suggest (not that they ever work too hard in-season in any case). As for why JT couldn't have/hasn't been playing that role in the last couple of seasons, well, I don't really understand why he hasn't or more to the point why you would think he hasn't??

I don't disagree with any of this and our team balance is completely out of whack with way too many low impact players, but going in with English as our sole ruck, with some chop outs from Dunks (lol), Jong, Macrae etc is just going to yield the same results.

Trengove should have played more, no doubt about it and there's no guarantees that if Martin comes in, Bevo even picks him.

[mjp]

Trengove should have played more, no doubt about it and there's no guarantees that if Martin comes in, Bevo even picks him.

That's my problem with this whole scenario...I can't see how a "Ruck Only" player gets a game!

[GVGjr]

There are already 5x players in that side who literally CANNOT get a kick.
- Richards
- Wood
- Bruce
- Gardner
- Cordy

A harsh person would add Naughton (low possession forward), Crozier (based on 2nd half of season), JJ (tagged out whenever the opposition want), Wallis (low possession forward), Lipinski (again, 2nd half of year) and Smith (R version) to the list of 5...

And now we are adding another? I disagree mate - I think we actually can make things worse. If we go into a game with a spare ruck then that means even more flicking guys around between back, mid and forward to get them a breather and with so many low possession players in the group...

We have English. We need a player who can flip-flop between ruck and forward and make a fist of things. That is why I said we should target Jackson and throw the kitchen sink at him...I would actually have a crack at getting Sinclair out of Sydney - he CAN play as a forward and would also play the role of competing at training as you suggest (not that they ever work too hard in-season in any case). As for why JT couldn't have/hasn't been playing that role in the last couple of seasons, well, I don't really understand why he hasn't or more to the point why you would think he hasn't??

From my perspective I think the underlying challenge that you have detailed can't be fixed by anyone unless the coach is prepared to change the focus and this year unless we unload Dunkley, Schache and maybe Richards we won't have the chips to be a major player
Does a 2nd year ruckman who is still learning how to be a forward and ruckman really change things that much for us in 2021? I have my doubts and that isn't in anyway knocking Jackson. Would we really venture into 2021 with 3 tall forwards or just Naughton and Jackson as key forwards?

I get Martin won't fix our challenges but there has to be some good reasons why he is in the mix to come to us and more importantly we didn't get him over to us as an unrestricted FA.

There is a fair bit to play out and I think tomorrow some of the missing pieces might become evident

[FrediKanoute]

That's my problem with this whole scenario...I can't see how a "Ruck Only" player gets a game!

I think ruck only is an outdated plan. You would only use it if your ruck was soooooo good that you just had to pick them. The problem isn't so much English can't ruck, its finding a viable player who can give him a chop out for 20 to 30% of the time. Dunks is not the answer

[GVGjr]

That's my problem with this whole scenario...I can't see how a "Ruck Only" player gets a game!

JT is still worth a spot on our list, 2019 proved that but something has changed and our reluctance to use him and allow English to battle through form slumps and mismatches solo just highlights that he wasn't in our plans.

I'd normally agree with the premise of your 'ruck only' logic because it really doesn't suit our MC philosophies but do you really think we would make a hard call on Bruce or move Naughton to the back line to bring in a Casboult or Sinclair type? I don't think we would

The ideal scenario for our set-up would be Blicavs midfielder ruckman or a JT type defender ruckman and they are harder to find

[bornadog]

I do agree and think Bevo got it wrong playing him as the lone ruckman for so long. It seems we're now committed to him operating as an understudy for a year. This should of happened much earlier. I'm not sure what the answer is but bringing Martin in is very reactive and reeks of Bevo being overruled on a failed methodology
English won't unlearn what he's learnt and hopefully his craft is enhanced by having a real ruckman at the club for a year. The English situation has been a dropped bowl of jelly but is there even a right answer to this now?

Don't forget the plan was to play Tom Boyd and English last year, but Tom pulled out (Feb 2019) and we didn't really replace him at the end of 2019, as we were chasing two KPPs.

[GVGjr]

Don't forget the plan was to play Tom Boyd and English last year, but Tom pulled out (Feb 2019) and we didn't really replace him at the end of 2019, as we were chasing two KPPs.

We must have known that Boyd's back concerns where an inhibiting factor and there was a massive question mark on his ability to play and Boyd even sought his own medical advice. We can keep using that excuse but it just highlights how we don't manage risk and we haven't really addressed the need for a key forward who can also be a productive ruck man for a few years now

[bornadog]

We must have known that Boyd's back concerns where an inhibiting factor and there was a massive question mark on his ability to play and Boyd even sought his own medical advice. We can keep using that excuse but it just highlights how we don't manage risk and we haven't really addressed the need for a key forward who can also be a productive ruck man for a few years now

He didn't retire because of his back, it was more a mental illness and and he lost his passion for footy.

We have tried to bring in key forwards in Schache and Bruce. Maybe not as successful as we would have wanted.

[GVGjr]

He didn't retire because of his back, it was more a mental illness and and he lost his passion for footy.

We have tried to bring in key forwards in Schache and Bruce. Maybe not as successful as we would have wanted.

What it highlights is that there was a massive doubt on his ability to get fit and play. That is why he sought his own medical opinions and options in an effort to get on top of a debilitating injury. Even with that in mind we ignored that challenge and we didn't plan for the scenario that he might not come good. To me it's not a plausible excuse or reason.

As for Schache and Bruce, neither were noted as back-up ruckman and anywhere near Boyds ability in that area and I doubt we can address it for next season.

[NoseBleed]

His back is cooked, it wouldn’t and won’t stand up to AFL training and playing needs.

[The Pie Man]

That just seems dumb. We've just bled for 3-years with him playing as #1 ruck and NOW we move him forward? When he has done all his training, learning etc as a ruckman?

If we wanted him to play predominantly forward that process should have started when he first got to the club.

Talk about being the "Lords of the after-thought". I sincerely hope I am wrong about this but if we have Martin I just see him and Sweet (and Young, and Schache) all playing 2's and the senior side looking exactly like it did in 2020.

Think that afterthought happened mid way through this year, as there was a stretch were English did play predominantly forward, and King was asked about this on SEN at the time and mentioned they wanted to see if he had any forward craft.

I’m guessing they didn’t hate what they saw - probably liked it more than his form in the ruck at the time.

One of our best quarters of the year was the 3rd quarter vs Melbourne. Josh Bruce first ruck (not sustainable, though he was good) and Tim forward (kicked a goal, looked lively, and most importantly, is a sustainable option)

If Martin can find a second wind, I reckon he plays and we either try 2-3 talls forward or drop one of Gardner (with shuffling) or Bruce.

[Ghost Dog]

Best available? who else to get if not him?
A lot of it depends on the price we get him for.

[dog town]

Trying to put myself in the the clubs shoes to attempt to understand the thought process with this. I wonder if they just want the option there for certain games?

The narrative that we get slaughtered around the ball on a weekly basis due to our ruck just isn’t correct but there is games where we needed to limit the damage. When you look at the top 4 from this year none of them have particularly dominant rucks but they have enough that they don’t get monstered. I don’t agree that it will work but maybe Martin is going to be used sparingly and against teams where we have concerns about English being physically able to compete for an extended period.

[Mofra]

Is there anyone expecting Martin to play an entire season?

I don't think that's the plan at all. The guy was a rock up until 2020 before injury struck, and that may be how his career finishes. I see two scenarios playing out at various times next year:

a. English spends time forward as he did 2018 & 2019 pre-season when the coaching staff were "pretty excited" by what English offers forward (their words). TBH English looked a more effective forward than Josh Bruce this year.

b. Stef Martin plays 5-10 games, with English playing mostly forward during those games as a way of keeping him fresh or even rested himself.

Martin also takes a coaching/mentoring role for English and Sweet without it impacting on the soft-cap which as I understand it will tighten significantly next year. Having someone to actually train and play with Sweet and English while mentoring them will hasten their development far more than King will.

Point C - who else is there? Not sold on Mason Cox, Hickey is off to the Swans, Vardy is fragile and the Eagles would earmark him as their 'depth' option anyway. Goldy looks set to stay at North and the under-the-radar kid I really rate (Xerri) would be one of North's few 'untouchables'.

We're market takers in this scenario as as a cheap option Martin might just be the best available.

[comrade]

Point C - who else is there? Not sold on Mason Cox, Hickey is off to the Swans, Vardy is fragile and the Eagles would earmark him as their 'depth' option anyway. Goldy looks set to stay at North and the under-the-radar kid I really rate (Xerri) would be one of North's few 'untouchables'.

We're market takers in this scenario as as a cheap option Martin might just be the best available.

Without putting words in MJPs mouth, I think the preference is to be more adventurous/aggressive and chisel a required player out from another club like Essendon has done with Dunkley (such as Jackson from Melbourne).

Easier said than done.

[Mofra]

Without putting words in MJPs mouth, I think the preference is to be more adventurous/aggressive and chisel a required player out from another club like Essendon has done with Dunkley (such as Jackson from Melbourne).

Easier said than done.
In that case, it comes down to a cost vs benefit analysis. Would the cost of that 'chiselling' be worth it?

The other question still stands - who else is there? Jackson is not a mature ruck, ditto Bailey Williams at WCE, and both clubs would fight tooth and nail to keep thim.
Draper has just signed a long deal at Essendon.

The aforementioned Xerri I like but is the same age as English and Sweet. If Soldo hadn't hurt his knee I would have been all for a real crack at Nank, but it's not to be. Port put up the hand to the Swans' questions about Ladhams.

[comrade]

In that case, it comes down to a cost vs benefit analysis. Would the cost of that 'chiselling' be worth it?

The other question still stands - who else is there? Jackson is not a mature ruck, ditto Bailey Williams at WCE, and both clubs would fight tooth and nail to keep thim.
Draper has just signed a long deal at Essendon.

The aforementioned Xerri I like but is the same age as English and Sweet. If Soldo hadn't hurt his knee I would have been all for a real crack at Nank, but it's not to be. Port put up the hand to the Swans' questions about Ladhams.

Clubs have wised up to the value of the ruck position over the last few seasons and we're playing catch up. We're not going to just be able to whip up interest from a contracted ruck at another club overnight and expect to get a deal done.

Dunkley was months in the making, if we haven't done the required ground work to chisel out a player, there's no chance we'll find one during this trade period.

[Happy Days]

Clubs have wised up to the value of the ruck position over the last few seasons and we're playing catch up. We're not going to just be able to whip up interest from a contracted ruck at another club overnight and expect to get a deal done.


Yep. All of the teams that have drastically improved/are good and fun to watch typically have a dual ruck set up (Port, Saints, West Coast, even Richmond for most of the season). This isn't about playing two lumbering guys, and it should see Tim get placed in a position to play completely to his strengths.

FWIW if we get a second ruck in then the only personnel change I'd hope to see is Bruce in the seconds. No need for Naughton to go back.

[Bulldog4life]

When with Melbourne Martin spent some time playing back and forward. As an aside he played his first match with Old Haileybury. He was 19 and had never played a football game before.

[Topdog]

Just signed up sweet for an extension too

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I'm happy with the decisions but it's funny that we didn't play Sweet at all this season, yet we were desperate for ruck support and we've signed him up yet we didn't need Gowers but we played him and have now delisted him.

[jazzadogs]

Clubs have wised up to the value of the ruck position over the last few seasons and we're playing catch up. We're not going to just be able to whip up interest from a contracted ruck at another club overnight and expect to get a deal done.


It's almost like we had a long-term plan for the ruck position which was unexpectedly terminated.

Boyd and English was our long-term ruck tag team, with Sweet rookied, which had the potential to be the envy of the competition. Last year was the first time we could have justifiably brought in a first-rate ruck and offered ruck minutes, but why would you go to a club with one of the most promising ruckmen in the comp?

[comrade]

It's almost like we had a long-term plan for the ruck position which was unexpectedly terminated.

Boyd and English was our long-term ruck tag team, with Sweet rookied, which had the potential to be the envy of the competition. Last year was the first time we could have justifiably brought in a first-rate ruck and offered ruck minutes, but why would you go to a club with one of the most promising ruckmen in the comp?

Yeah, can’t argue with that. I mentioned elsewhere I recently re-watched highlights of every involvement Boyd had in the 2016 GF and his ruck work was actually very impressive.

[boydogs]

Why do they have to play in the same side? It was still worth it to get a backup that means Josh Bruce isn't our #1 ruck if English gets injured

[mjp]

Why do they have to play in the same side? It was still worth it to get a backup that means Josh Bruce isn't our #1 ruck if English gets injured

Why not just use JT?

The narrative seems to be that they will play together tho.

[GVGjr]

Why not just use JT?

The narrative seems to be that they will play together tho.

We could have and should used that option. Suggest the Bevo Doghouse was in full swing

[The Pie Man]

We could have and should used that option. Suggest the Bevo Doghouse was in full swing

Can feel some Bevo Doghouse artwork in the near future

[bornadog]

Interesting Stef said one reason he left Brisbane was next year they are going to only play one ruckman.

[comrade]

Interesting Stef said one reason he left Brisbane was next year they are going to only play one ruckman.

Big O and Daniher.

[dog town]

Interesting Stef said one reason he left Brisbane was next year they are going to only play one ruckman. They have 3 giant key forwards no way they could play 2 rucks.

[bornadog]

Interesting reading back on this thread. Was the question asked by the OP answered? Was Martin the right person considering all his injuries ( including historical)?

[comrade]

Interesting reading back on this thread. Was the question asked by the OP answered? Was Martin the right person considering all his injuries ( including historical)?

We played Martin at every opportunity and our forward line never looked better. Martin might not have been the right option specifically, but it has proven that a big bodied ruck that can do 70-8-% in the ruck can work for us.

[Ghost Dog]

We could have and should used that option. Suggest the Bevo Doghouse was in full swing
Is the Bevo Doghouse when you do something Bevo doesn't like and end up in the Magoos for your career?
JT was a confusing one. Why get him and not play him? He wasn't that bad.

[Mofra]

Interesting reading back on this thread. Was the question asked by the OP answered? Was Martin the right person considering all his injuries ( including historical)?
A cheap player to advance English and Sweet without harming the soft cap?
Off field it's a huge success, on field it's so-so. If he gets back for finals then it will be amazing.

[jeemak]

Is the Bevo Doghouse when you do something Bevo doesn't like and end up in the Magoos for your career?
JT was a confusing one. Why get him and not play him? He wasn't that bad.

It's not like we never played him. There was a line put through his name last year though, for whatever reason.

[DOG GOD]

A cheap player to advance English and Sweet without harming the soft cap?
Off field it's a huge success, on field it's so-so. If he gets back for finals then it will be amazing.
We certainly need him for finals…as much as dunks and Treloar are an important part, Martin is THE part that structures us beautifully, as seen in the first part of the year.

[1eyedog]

The gamble was worth it because it has shown how valuable a mature, experienced ruck is to our structure. If we can eek out anything from him moving forward it will still be worth it he makes us a different team.

I'm amazed just how well we've done this year without a ruckman, Dunkley and Treloar but we are getting tired in the middle.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

So we all now agree that the MC have the right balance when Martin is playing.

Turn to 2022 and do we go against with Martin or go out and chase another mature age Ruckman like a Goldstein

[Hotdog60]

So we all now agree that the MC have the right balance when Martin is playing.

Turn to 2022 and do we go against with Martin or go out and chase another mature age Ruckman like a Goldstein

Don't get Happy Days started again. He'll remove the R.I.P from he's signature.

[comrade]

Don't get Happy Days started again. He'll remove the R.I.P from he's signature.

I'm on the Ben McEvoy for 2 years train now.

Clarko on the way out, Hawks years away from contending. I think we can sell him on a flag shot and get him in for a few years.

[Mofra]

I'd prefer a longer term solution. Ladhams, Max Lynch.

[Grantysghost]

Is the Bevo Doghouse when you do something Bevo doesn't like and end up in the Magoos for your career?
JT was a confusing one. Why get him and not play him? He wasn't that bad.

Off thread but JT related he's going to be the Barooga senior coach next season.

On thread I like the McEvoy idea, Goldstein would be better.

[comrade]

Off thread but JT related he's going to be the Barooga senior coach next season.

On thread I like the McEvoy idea, Goldstein would be better.

I think McEvoy is more gettable which is strange given he is captain. They have Ceglar and Reeves as options moving forward, plus all the Clarko stuff.

North have basically no one else to take on the number 1 role unless they want to give BTC the gig and well...yeah.

[bornadog]

I'd prefer a longer term solution. Ladhams, Max Lynch.

THIS ^^

We need a long term solution. Timmy is a great second ruck.

I like Ladhams of the two above.

[Happy Days]

I think McEvoy is more gettable which is strange given he is captain. They have Ceglar and Reeves as options moving forward, plus all the Clarko stuff.

North have basically no one else to take on the number 1 role unless they want to give BTC the gig and well...yeah.

I know there's no chance given who his dad is, but I really like Reeves. He's absolutely huge and has that thing where he can dominate a pack marking contest that Dean Cox had (and Timmy has too).

[Twodogs]

I know there's no chance given who his dad is, but I really like Reeves. He's absolutely huge and has that thing where he can dominate a pack marking contest that Dean Cox had (and Timmy has too).

Who is his dad?

[Happy Days]

Who is his dad?

CEO of Hawthorn.

[SquirrelGrip]

I'd prefer a longer term solution. Ladhams, Max Lynch.

I still think there's a way to negotiate with Collingwood for Brodie Grundy and to find a solution with his contract. He's still only 27 and would be a great 1-2 with English for at least 5 years.

[bornadog]

I still think there's a way to negotiate with Collingwood for Brodie Grundy and to find a solution with his contract. He's still only 27 and would be a great 1-2 with English for at least 5 years.

Why would a club let go one of the best rucks in the AFL?

[Cyberdoggie]

Why would a club let go one of the best rucks in the AFL?
How could we possibly afford him along with Bont, Macrae, Treloar, Dunks, Naughton, Smith, English, Daniel and Marra in future years.

We are going to have a very difficult time keeping all our talent let alone bringing in the very player who's massive contract forced senior players out and started a rebuild at the biggest club who were expecting finals wins with that squad.

If anything we are going to have to give up some to keep these guys.

[SquirrelGrip]

Why would a club let go one of the best rucks in the AFL?

This is the club that let go their best midfielder to us. They would let him go precisely so they can clear their badly managed salary cap and with a new coach, start setting up a team for their next flag.

[comrade]

Great rucks are very important but not $1M year and jeopardise your salary cap important. Hopefully we can find a good one that doesn't break the bank.

[Danjul]

Great rucks are very important but not $1M year and jeopardise your salary cap important. Hopefully we can find a good one that doesn't break the bank.
The Dogs have to solve the current ruck problem - the MC will not select one.

The person doesnÂ’t have to win every contest. Our midfield is good enough to make up for their deficiencies. We didnÂ’t have the dominant ruckman in the first dozen games. But the opposition was blown away.

The person chosen simply has to exist on the field so winning structures are preserved.

We have had games this year when forwards and/or backs have played very badly and no one bats an eye. But if a ruckman might have an off day they canÂ’t be considered. The 2021 premiership is at stake and the last few games suggest it is slipping away.

[Axe Man]

The Dogs have to solve the current ruck problem - the MC will not select one.

The person doesnÂ’t have to win every contest. Our midfield is good enough to make up for their deficiencies. We didnÂ’t have the dominant ruckman in the first dozen games. But the opposition was blown away.

The person chosen simply has to exist on the field so winning structures are preserved.

We have had games this year when forwards and/or backs have played very badly and no one bats an eye. But if a ruckman might have an off day they canÂ’t be considered. The 2021 premiership is at stake and the last few games suggest it is slipping away.

You are criminally underrating the job Stef did when he was fit. He was more than just a warm body. The suggestion that anyone tall can do the job is ridiculous.

[Danjul]

You are criminally underrating the job Stef did when he was fit. He was more than just a warm body. The suggestion that anyone tall can do the job is ridiculous.
That was the dominant philosophy at the club and on WOOF for years. That’s why there’s a problem now.

Martin rarely won the ruck contest and has not contributed much around the ground (never took more than 2 marks in a game).

What he showed was that if you prevent your opponents from being match winners you have done a good job.

A champion ruckman would be great, maybe next year. But they are not making the Dogs premiers this year.

The important thing is a premiership this year,

[Axe Man]

That was the dominant philosophy at the club and on WOOF for years. That’s why there’s a problem now.

Martin rarely won the ruck contest and has not contributed much around the ground (never took more than 2 marks in a game).

What he showed was that if you prevent your opponents from being match winners you have done a good job.

A champion ruckman would be great, maybe next year. But they are not making the Dogs premiers this year.

The important thing is a premiership this year,

I don't disagree what you are saying, but you were seemingly asserting that we can just play anyone in the ruck other than English and we will automatically be a better team. It's just not that simple.

Martin and Sweet have an almost identical hitout win rate of 34%. But really as you say that is not overly important. Preventing the other ruckman from getting on top is the key. Whether Sweet can do that as well as Martin is the question.

As an aside English seems to have improved his competitiveness in the ruck in recent weeks which complicates the issue. Tim offers more around the ground than either Martin or Sweet so the answer is not as straightforward as you suggest.

[Hotdog60]

I don't disagree what you are saying, but you were seemingly asserting that we can just play anyone in the ruck other than English and we will automatically be a better team. It's just not that simple.

Martin and Sweet have an almost identical hitout win rate of 34%. But really as you say that is not overly important. Preventing the other ruckman from getting on top is the key. Whether Sweet can do that as well as Martin is the question.

As an aside English seems to have improved his competitiveness in the ruck in recent weeks which complicates the issue. Tim offers more around the ground than either Martin or Sweet so the answer is not as straightforward as you suggest.

This is the thing if Martin isn't playing we should be putting time into Sweet. If we did two things can happen, one we find out that Sweet has an up swing and will develop in time and is therefore worth the time and energy or he is totally shown up as not being quite good enough for the AFL and we can move on.

[comrade]

This is the thing if Martin isn't playing we should be putting time into Sweet. If we did two things can happen, one we find out that Sweet has an up swing and will develop in time and is therefore worth the time and energy or he is totally shown up as not being quite good enough for the AFL and we can move on.

I do have a sneaking suspicion that Bevo is just going to back English in to be our main man moving forward, including 2022 and beyond.

[Bulldog Joe]

It is clear that English has improved. He was very good against NicNat and seems to have developed a bit more technique.

The options of getting a chop out from Bruce/Cordy or Young (when played) seems as far as Bevo is now prepared to go.

[Axe Man]

This is the thing if Martin isn't playing we should be putting time into Sweet. If we did two things can happen, one we find out that Sweet has an up swing and will develop in time and is therefore worth the time and energy or he is totally shown up as not being quite good enough for the AFL and we can move on.

Again I think that is a tough call to make. If we were in the bottom half of the ladder - for sure. When we are potentially challenging for a flag, I can see arguements both ways. In one camp - get games into Sweet, he could be just what we need. The counter - he's not good enough (yet or perhaps ever), he could cost us games if we play him.

I'm glad I don't have to make these decisions.

[Mofra]

This is the thing if Martin isn't playing we should be putting time into Sweet. If we did two things can happen, one we find out that Sweet has an up swing and will develop in time and is therefore worth the time and energy or he is totally shown up as not being quite good enough for the AFL and we can move on.
He had a few terrible weeks at VFL level though (beaten by Stanley and Tom Campbell)
You don't promote a guy to find out if his bad form will magically turn around at AFL level when you're fighting for a top four spot.

I want us to find a ruck at the end of the year to relase English to the second ruck/forward role, but as it stands right now Sweet isn't that guy. After a pre-season or two he may be.

[1eyedog]

I do have a sneaking suspicion that Bevo is just going to back English in to be our main man moving forward, including 2022 and beyond.

Absolutely it is and when he matures he'll be lauded for it. Problem is, it's not helping us now and it's a frustrating dichotomy needing a good one now in our window while we continue to play an inexperienced one who has a high ceiling which might only be reached in the next 2-3 years.

[Mofra]

Absolutely it is and when he matures he'll be lauded for it. Problem is, it's not helping us now and it's a frustrating dichotomy needing a good one now in our window while we continue to play an inexperienced one who has a high ceiling which might only be reached in the next 2-3 years.
Even if he is - we're terribly thin for ruck depth anyway. We absolutely should be looking at rucks.

[DOG GOD]

The best we have looked for mine, was Martin in ruck, and the 3 headed monster up fwd. I think this balanced our team better.
What I don’t like seeing is English in ruck and the 2 headed monster, in turn, leaving a one headed monster when English is on the bench, and Bruce is rucking.

I wonder if Bruce’s poor form lately has anything to do with the fact he’s being pulled from the fwd line to ruck, then having to get back into the groove again. Maybe he finds this difficult.

[Happy Days]

Having a “main ruck” while another 200cm guy chills 90% of the game in the forward pocket is old thinking for mine. Melbourne have the best ruck in the world and even they’ve opted for something of a timeshare in order to get more presence across the whole ground.

I said this last year but having a number of mobile skilful talls who can dominate in the air is a good thing and I’d play 22 of them if we had them. Even if Bevo wants to put Tim on the teamsheet next to the letter R all next season we should still bring in capable support and play them every week.

[soupman]

Ladhams is the best option in that way of thinking. Doesn't need to be a ruck to be involved, and covers the ground well.

Mabior Chol seems to cover the ground well, and i believe is an UFA, does anyone have an opinion on him? I imagine him somewhat as a slightly less capable Ladhams, but have no idea if that's correct.

[SonofScray]

The best we have looked for mine, was Martin in ruck, and the 3 headed monster up fwd. I think this balanced our team better.
What I don’t like seeing is English in ruck and the 2 headed monster, in turn, leaving a one headed monster when English is on the bench, and Bruce is rucking.

I wonder if Bruce’s poor form lately has anything to do with the fact he’s being pulled from the fwd line to ruck, then having to get back into the groove again. Maybe he finds this difficult.
This is a very valid observation and hypothesis from my perspective.

[jazzadogs]

Ladhams is the best option in that way of thinking. Doesn't need to be a ruck to be involved, and covers the ground well.

Mabior Chol seems to cover the ground well, and i believe is an UFA, does anyone have an opinion on him? I imagine him somewhat as a slightly less capable Ladhams, but have no idea if that's correct.

Ladhams has a bit of Rowan Marshall about him, and I would be ecstatic to have Rowan Marshall in our team. But Ladhams would be cheaper.

[Happy Days]

Ladhams is the best option in that way of thinking. Doesn't need to be a ruck to be involved, and covers the ground well.

Mabior Chol seems to cover the ground well, and i believe is an UFA, does anyone have an opinion on him? I imagine him somewhat as a slightly less capable Ladhams, but have no idea if that's correct.

I think he's got some ability and some nice skills but is even less physical of a ruckman than English is (and not as good of one either). He would frustrate us so badly and doesn't really fit our needs.

[ratsmac]

I think with JUH coming in and hopefully doing enough to hold his spot we don't need English in the forward line like we did earlier in the season. JUH will no doubt have games where he doesn't kick 3 goals but so did English when he was there and Martin was playing. English is getting better all the time in the ruck, the job he did against Nic Nat shows that. I prefer English dropping into defence and taking intercept marks tbh. If we can get Schache (I know we've tried) or JUH to hold down that 3rd tall forward then our ruck situation isn't as critical as it seems. English kicked 3 goals twice this year against North and against Brisbane when we had Martin. JUH kicked 3 in his 2nd game.

[WBFC4FFC]

I think with JUH coming in and hopefully doing enough to hold his spot we don't need English in the forward line like we did earlier in the season. JUH will no doubt have games where he doesn't kick 3 goals but so did English when he was there and Martin was playing. English is getting better all the time in the ruck, the job he did against Nic Nat shows that. I prefer English dropping into defence and taking intercept marks tbh. If we can get Schache (I know we've tried) or JUH to hold down that 3rd tall forward then our ruck situation isn't as critical as it seems. English kicked 3 goals twice this year against North and against Brisbane when we had Martin. JUH kicked 3 in his 2nd game.

Looks like Bevo is experimenting tomorrow night (in the wet) with the tall team option. English, Naughton, Bruce, Ugle-Hagan and Schache all playing.