Three things you have learned Round 1 2021 v Collingwood

[Twodogs]

It's back!

Tell us 3 things you learned tonight against Collingwood.

[GVGjr]

Bump

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

1. Gardner has some potential. Maybe he's starting to work through his nerves.

2. Our midfield can defend!

3. Some things never change, we can't connect in our forward line, and we still lack finishing

[AshMac]

1. God I missed the footy. Blew the lid clean off tonight and it was cathartic
2. Bonts shot at goal would have been the nail in the coffin, can’t be missing those
3. Tim English played with a confidence and impact I haven’t seen before. Stef Martin will do more than just groom his ruck craft

[bornadog]

1. We now have some dangerous big men
* Bruce 11 marks, English 8, Naughton 7 and they all kicked goals as did Stefan

2. Mids are bloody good. Macrae 35, Smith 35, Hunter 31, Dunkley 30, Bont 29

3. We had almost 150 more disposals than Coillingwood, and really should have won by more, but I will take the win

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

1. We now have some dangerous big men
* Bruce 11 marks, English 8, Naughton 7 and they all kicked goals as did Stefan

2. Mids are bloody good. Macrae 35, Smith 35, Hunter 31, Dunkley 30, Bont 29

3. We had almost 150 more disposals than Coillingwood, and really should have won by more, but I will take the win

Most disposals we've had since 2016. If that trend continues, it will only be a positive when we start to convert those into 6 pointers more regularly. But there definitely seemed a bit more of that manic intent that was such a feature of our game in 2016.

[Twodogs]

1. Stef Martin still has plenty of good footy in front of him.

2. A really tall forward line can work

3. Dunkley did the right thing staying or we did the right thing keeping him.

[hujsh]

1. Gardiner may have found some composure

2. Our midfield might work if Smith can perform like that on a wing (also solving a big area of need)

3. The dual ruck setup has turned a weakness into a possible strength.

[Vred]

1. Beating Collingwood feels gooood
2. Smith on long term contract please, future captain of the club and insane footballer
3. Rucks are now a strength, not a weakness, in a midfield full of stars

[jazzadogs]

1. Our full-ground defence/zone was very effective at slowing down the Collingwood ball movement 90% of the time. This allowed our defenders time to set up and defend as a collective. The issue is (as it has been for a while) that the 10% where it gets over the zone is extremely damaging. If this is going to be our tactic, then we have to score when we are locking it in attack.

2. Bailey Dale off a half-back flank could work. He is good with ball in hand, likes to run and makes good decisions. I don't remember him being involved in any 1v1 defence though, and think that will be a big test for his future in that role. Duryea is also CLEARLY best 22.

3. Wallis is out of form. He was pretty crap in the praccys and has continued that into the season. Hopefully he can recapture what he offered us last year.

[Vred]

3. Wallis is out of form. He was pretty crap in the praccys and has continued that into the season. Hopefully he can recapture what he offered us last year.

Yep, agreed with this, was pretty much un-noticable tonight. I feel a Cavarra / West would of played his role better.

[FrediKanoute]

1. Our full-ground defence/zone was very effective at slowing down the Collingwood ball movement 90% of the time. This allowed our defenders time to set up and defend as a collective. The issue is (as it has been for a while) that the 10% where it gets over the zone is extremely damaging. If this is going to be our tactic, then we have to score when we are locking it in attack.

2. Bailey Dale off a half-back flank could work. He is good with ball in hand, likes to run and makes good decisions. I don't remember him being involved in any 1v1 defence though, and think that will be a big test for his future in that role. Duryea is also CLEARLY best 22.

3. Wallis is out of form. He was pretty crap in the praccys and has continued that into the season. Hopefully he can recapture what he offered us last year.

Bailey is playing JJ's attacking role of HB

[AshMac]

Yep, agreed with this, was pretty much un-noticable tonight. I feel a Cavarra / West would of played his role better.

It seems with the glut of quality mids we have a rotation where we’re resting guys pretty similar to Wally in the forward line. His lack of pace could really work against him this year in a faster game and he’ll be getting much more attention after last year.

I also think our entry into the forward line was atrocious for the most part, really keen to see him when he gets one out or a bit of space and a good ball in

[1eyedog]

1. Alex Keath is more than a good player.
2. I prefer Williams kicking out. Daniel constantly went the long option all night so not sure the new rule suits him on kick outs and Williams gets an extra 10 metres on his kicks.
3. VDM is a jet.

[DOG GOD]

1. Stef Martin could be our recruit of the year.

2. Our ineffectiveness in the fwd 50 looks to still be a concern

3. Vander could take a massive step in the AFL in 2021 if he stays fit. Looked awesome.

[AshMac]

1. Alex Keath is more than a good player.

Not disagreeing with you, but i wasnt a fan of him last night. I thought he looked out of position and made silly mistakes. Granted its hard to see the small things at the ground so will wait to watch the replay. But keen to read the key things you saw in him last night.

[comrade]

Not disagreeing with you, but i wasnt a fan of him last night. I thought he looked out of position and made silly mistakes. Granted its hard to see the small things at the ground so will wait to watch the replay. But keen to read the key things you saw in him last night.

He really hates the standing mark rule! After he got pinged for the 50, he would really overemphasise leaning to the side, it was actually pretty funny. I'm not sure he's at his fittest right now, looked to fatigue badly late in the game, leading to that really poor kick to Daniel that almost coughed up a scoring shot out of nothing for the Pies.

[AshMac]

He really hates the standing mark rule! After he got pinged for the 50, he would really overemphasise leaning to the side, it was actually pretty funny. I'm not sure he's at his fittest right now, looked to fatigue badly late in the game, leading to that really poor kick to Daniel that almost coughed up a scoring shot out of nothing for the Pies.

spot on. the standing on the mark killed me, did it a second time and wasnt pinged in the last qtr thankfully. Overall I thought our defence looked patchy last night, we were lucky collingwood didnt really put the screws in and play risk taking football. they looked much more dangerous forward than we did.

[comrade]

spot on. the standing on the mark killed me, did it a second time and wasnt pinged in the last qtr thankfully. Overall I thought our defence looked patchy last night, we were lucky collingwood didnt really put the screws in and play risk taking football. they looked much more dangerous forward than we did.

Bevo mentioned that teams will look to 'retreat' more and create 'density' in defence (so basically flooding I guess), I get the feeling he just doesn't believe in playing the game that way which is why we push high and are susceptible to the quick ones over the back after turn over. He sticks to his principles, for better or worse.

We have to find a way to combat the 'density' in our own forward half though, it's a major stumbling block right now.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

1. Beating Collingwood feels gooood
2. Smith on long term contract please, future captain of the club and insane footballer
3. Rucks are now a strength, not a weakness, in a midfield full of stars

Is he signed up yet?

I'd consult a contract status page if we had one.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

spot on. the standing on the mark killed me, did it a second time and wasnt pinged in the last qtr thankfully. Overall I thought our defence looked patchy last night, we were lucky collingwood didnt really put the screws in and play risk taking football. they looked much more dangerous forward than we did.

Did anyone notice quite a few players hanging back from the mark, so in effect having noone on the mark, in order to move laterally? How is that to be umpired?

[AshMac]

Bevo mentioned that teams will look to 'retreat' more and create 'density' in defence (so basically flooding I guess), I get the feeling he just doesn't believe in playing the game that way which is why we push high and are susceptible to the quick ones over the back after turn over. He sticks to his principles, for better or worse.

We have to find a way to combat the 'density' in our own forward half though, it's a major stumbling block right now.

Same old issues for us really. Need clean delivery in, good team movement to create space and hard pressure from quick players when the ball comes to ground. Didn't see much of that outside the first 5 minutes.

Fingers crossed Barass and McGovern dont rip us apart in the air like May and Lever.

[Sedat]

1. Stef Martin will be one of the most significant recruits in 2021 in terms of improving the fortunes of his new club - the flow-on effects of his arrival are already obvious for English, our stoppage game, our midfield positioning at stoppages

2. Libba is top 25 in the competition. Has a remarkably high footy IQ

3. Gardner and Keath are both playing 1 level above their pay grade. Imagine a Darcy Moore or Steven May as our #1 key defender, then Gardner as the lock down Morris replacement and Keath as the 3rd tall Tom Stewart style interceptor. We'd be flag favourites.

[AshMac]

Did anyone notice quite a few players hanging back from the mark, so in effect having noone on the mark, in order to move laterally? How is that to be umpired?

yeh i did - not sure it gives an advantage though as the player then cant move forward toward the kicking player. Essentially just gives them more space to load up their kick

[westbulldog]

This season seems to be all about speed so Wallis might flounder.
Williams is developing into AA contention.
Hunter is a terrible kick.

[comrade]

3. Gardner and Keath are both playing 1 level above their pay grade. Imagine a Darcy Moore or Steven May as our #1 key defender, then Gardner as the lock down Morris replacement and Keath as the 3rd tall Tom Stewart style interceptor. We'd be flag favourites.

We already have him in the side, he's just playing at the wrong end ;)

[DOG GOD]

We already have him in the side, he's just playing at the wrong end ;)

Well said Comrade.

[GVGjr]

1) In one game our stubborn approach to having two ruckman has been answered. The tandem worked.
2) Williams is becoming a very important player for us.
3) Gardner and Keath need a 3rd tall to help them out.

[1eyedog]

Not disagreeing with you, but i wasnt a fan of him last night. I thought he looked out of position and made silly mistakes. Granted its hard to see the small things at the ground so will wait to watch the replay. But keen to read the key things you saw in him last night.

I thought he was terrific last night. I watched the replay this morning and I think Duck mentioned that he is such a good player because he knows when to mark and when to spoil, and he did this to great effect last night. He's kind of two players in one. He has the ability to take intercept marks yet has honed his craft as a lock down defender the past two seasons. He's not awesome at the latter yet, but his heightened decision making and ability to read the ball through the air were first rate last night.

[EasternWest]

1. Stef Martin will be one of the most significant recruits in 2021 in terms of improving the fortunes of his new club - the flow-on effects of his arrival are already obvious for English, our stoppage game, our midfield positioning at stoppages


He's like a more polished Ben Hudson for mine.

Does all the team things and is a workhorse in the ruck, but is also reasonably skilled.

Always liked him at Brisbane and have really liked what I've seen from him so far. Seems like a terrific bloke.

[hujsh]

He's like a more polished Ben Hudson for mine.

Does all the team things and is a workhorse in the ruck, but is also reasonably skilled.

Always liked him at Brisbane and have really liked what I've seen from him so far. Seems like a terrific bloke.

He fits the side perfectly. A big ruck to support English (like say Mumford) probably wouldn't get a game but Martin has enough to his general game to offer the team and keep Bevo happy while still providing the strong support there we've been lacking

[comrade]

He fits the side perfectly. A big ruck to support English (like say Mumford) probably wouldn't get a game but Martin has enough to his general game to offer the team and keep Bevo happy while still providing the strong support there we've been lacking

The upside of Martin and English working is that it proves the concept works, so hopefully once Martin is done in a year or so, we actually replace him rather than letting English go it alone again.

[AshMac]

The upside of Martin and English working is that it proves the concept works, so hopefully once Martin is done in a year or so, we actually replace him rather than letting English go it alone again.

Saints proved the model last year with Ryder and Marshall too. Who'd have though the ruck was an important role....

[AshMac]

I thought he was terrific last night. I watched the replay this morning and I think Duck mentioned that he is such a good player because he knows when to mark and when to spoil, and he did this to great effect last night. He's kind of two players in one. He has the ability to take intercept marks yet has honed his craft as a lock down defender the past two seasons. He's not awesome at the latter yet, but his heightened decision making and ability to read the ball through the air were first rate last night.

fair enough, i'll reserve judgement until i see the replay. the mistakes do have a tendency of sticking out at the game.

Worth mentioning I most definitely rate him as a player in general

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I thought he was terrific last night. I watched the replay this morning and I think Duck mentioned that he is such a good player because he knows when to mark and when to spoil, and he did this to great effect last night. He's kind of two players in one. He has the ability to take intercept marks yet has honed his craft as a lock down defender the past two seasons. He's not awesome at the latter yet, but his heightened decision making and ability to read the ball through the air were first rate last night.

I thought he was terrific too. Made some silly skill errors towards the end but otherwise he was tremendous.

[Sedat]

He fits the side perfectly. A big ruck to support English (like say Mumford) probably wouldn't get a game but Martin has enough to his general game to offer the team and keep Bevo happy while still providing the strong support there we've been lacking
English will never be an effective 70-80% ruckman (unless he is against a big slow gumby ruckman like Mumford or Andrew Phillips) but he is so dangerous as a 20-30% ruckman drifting forward. Last night was vindication for the two-pronged ruck set-up, but really it should have been implemented 2 years ago and would have greatly benefited English's development in the last 2 years.

Stef Martin was so effective in blunting the natural ruck craft of Grundy at stoppages last night - it allowed our mids to be positioned much more aggressively at stoppages, and we absolutely dominated CP's and clearances as a result, not to mentioned field position. Speaking of Grundy, he is 1 game into a 7 year $1 million a season contract. That contract has the capacity to blow up their list management - it already has to an extent.

[Happy Days]

Al’s a gun. If his disposal was a little cleaner he’d be the complete package, but a strong one on one defender who can intercept is more than enough.

On the same track, I’m officially no longer nervous when Gardner is one out or in a contest. His kicking is still horrible but baby steps I guess.

[EasternWest]

Al’s a gun. If his disposal was a little cleaner he’d be the complete package, but a strong one on one defender who can intercept is more than enough.

On the same track, I’m officially no longer nervous when Gardner is one out or in a contest. His kicking is still horrible but baby steps I guess.

I would like to see him kick without the weight of the world's pressure on his shoulders. I don't know if he's a poor kick or if he's just shits himself a bit.

Otherwise he's going ok.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

English will never be an effective 70-80% ruckman (unless he is against a big slow gumby ruckman like Mumford or Andrew Phillips) but he is so dangerous as a 20-30% ruckman drifting forward. Last night was vindication for the two-pronged ruck set-up, but really it should have been implemented 2 years ago and would have greatly benefited English's development in the last 2 years.

Stef Martin was so effective in blunting the natural ruck craft of Grundy at stoppages last night - it allowed our mids to be positioned much more aggressively at stoppages, and we absolutely dominated CP's and clearances as a result, not to mentioned field position. Speaking of Grundy, he is 1 game into a 7 year $1 million a season contract. That contract has the capacity to blow up their list management - it already has to an extent.

Absolutely. Who should we have an eye on to replace Stef Martin? I have no idea if Sweet will make it and ideally we get someone who can step straight into Stef's role as we would be up to our ears in contention for the cup.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I would like to see him kick without the weight of the world's pressure on his shoulders. I don't know if he's a poor kick or if he's just shits himself a bit.

Otherwise he's going ok.

I think the latter.

I'm fine with Gardner. I came around to him halfway through last year. We still lack that key defender though but it's refreshing to not look at our list and pull your hair out seeing a Gowers or Lloyd type. We don't have a weak link. Yeah we have some positional problems but the players themselves are best 22 in nearly every side in the comp.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

English will never be an effective 70-80% ruckman (unless he is against a big slow gumby ruckman like Mumford or Andrew Phillips) but he is so dangerous as a 20-30% ruckman drifting forward. Last night was vindication for the two-pronged ruck set-up, but really it should have been implemented 2 years ago and would have greatly benefited English's development in the last 2 years.

Stef Martin was so effective in blunting the natural ruck craft of Grundy at stoppages last night - it allowed our mids to be positioned much more aggressively at stoppages, and we absolutely dominated CP's and clearances as a result, not to mentioned field position. Speaking of Grundy, he is 1 game into a 7 year $1 million a season contract. That contract has the capacity to blow up their list management - it already has to an extent.

Has Grundy been found out? Or has he just become complacent with his mega $$$$? He was average last year too.

[bornadog]

but really it should have been implemented 2 years ago and would have greatly benefited English's development in the last 2 years.

Two years ago (December 28th 2019) (https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/551248/2019-rewind-tom-boyd-announces-afl-retirement#:~:text=The%20physical%20and%20emotional%20toll,G WS%20Giants%20and%20the%20Bulldogs.) the plan was Tom Boyd and Tim English, but before the start of the 2020 season, Tom decided Footy is not for him and that blew our plans.

[HOSE B ROMERO]

First it was left footers and now it's blondes.

Daniel
Naughton
Smith
Hunter
Treloar
Wallis
English

If i was Roarke Smith i'd be hanging about Bevo's office a lot this week.

[EasternWest]

First it was left footers and now it's blondes.

Daniel
Naughton
Smith
Hunter
Treloar
Wallis
English

If i was Roarke Smith i'd be hanging about Bevo's office a lot this week.

Implying that he doesn't anyway?

[bornadog]

First it was left footers and now it's blondes.

Daniel
Naughton
Smith
Hunter
Treloar
Wallis
English

If i was Roarke Smith i'd be hanging about Bevo's office a lot this week.

Did Roarke shave his hair?

[jazzadogs]

Absolutely. Who should we have an eye on to replace Stef Martin? I have no idea if Sweet will make it and ideally we get someone who can step straight into Stef's role as we would be up to our ears in contention for the cup.

I would also ask who was available and wanted to play for us two years ago as a #1 ruck, that plays in a similar way to Stef (and would have cost us nothing, like Stef has?).

It's fine to say that we should have done it, but the personnel need to be willing and available. It's just like saying we should get more indigenous players/clever crumbing forwards, when we have openly chased Wingard and Jack Martin (and probably enquired about others behind closed doors).

[Topdog]

I don't disagree jazz but i really can't recall us even being linked with a ruck. Did we go after Ryder?

[bornadog]

I don't disagree jazz but i really can't recall us even being linked with a ruck. Did we go after Ryder?

We had Tom Boyd and we didn't need another ruck two years ago

[GVGjr]

I don't disagree jazz but i really can't recall us even being linked with a ruck. Did we go after Ryder?

Not that I can recall, going back a few years now we had Boyd seeking external medical advice to get on top of a debilitating back injury and didn't really put the feelers out for any others. Apparently our plan was an unproven but talented youngster and a player with a bad back. We also didn't do a lot to maintain Roughead.

[jeemak]

A lot has been said already..........some really good points made.

1 - Bailey Dale may have a future in defence, though I need to see him tested one on one more often to make the call

2 - Bont's kicking runs either hot or cold, often never in between

3 - We now have two ruckmen I want to introduce to my nanna, because they seem like such lovely young men


I thought we defended the ground really well. We are going to concede goals, and if opposition teams know we're going to get our hands on it more often then they'll simply drop numbers back, exploit our limitations for ground level players in our forward line and await an opportunity to sling it from defence. That's how we are scored against, it's probably going to continue to be that way until we change personnel.

The congestion in our forward line means we need to make sure we nail the short passes instead of fluffing them, but most importantly nail our easy set shots. Some teams may play an open style game against us and it might be different these weeks, but until those games we probably just need to get used to more of what we saw last night with hopefully better hit-ups to the lead and conversion.

[Bullies]

The upside of Martin and English working is that it proves the concept works, so hopefully once Martin is done in a year or so, we actually replace him rather than letting English go it alone again. I think that is why Sweet is being retained. Give Sweet another year or two to learn his craft and he will be ready to go.

[ratsmac]

1. Treloar's head wasn't in the game. I don't blame him but he didn't look comfortable at all imo. He was still serviceable and will be better for the run. In saying that what a luxury it is to have him in what was arguably the already best midfield in the comp.

2. Ruck is no longer a weak spot. Martin/English combo will cause selection headaches for other teams. They will be forced to go tall against us if Martin and English can keep up the good work. We at least don't look like getting exploited in the ruck anymore.

3. 2021 has the same congestion in the forward line as 2020. We can't do anything about opponents flooding so the brains trust need to come up with strategies to get through it. We can stop flooding our own forward line for starters. Clear our!

[Hotdog60]

We may see Sweet get a run if Martin needs a rest.

[1eyedog]

I don't disagree jazz but i really can't recall us even being linked with a ruck. Did we go after Ryder?

Yep we went after Lobbe hard at the end of 2016. He had a very attractive offer in front of him while holiday in Nam.

[bornadog]

Yep we went after Lobbe hard at the end of 2016. He had a very attractive offer in front of him while holiday in Nam.

We ended up with Trengove instead in 2018

[Twodogs]

Yep we went after Lobbe hard at the end of 2016. He had a very attractive offer in front of him while holiday in Nam.

And we would have given up the pick we took Tim English with for Lobbe.

[mjp]

It's just like saying we should get more indigenous players/clever crumbing forwards, when we have openly chased Wingard and Jack Martin (and probably enquired about others behind closed doors).

There’s always the draft jd.

We have to build it first mate - then they will come. Trying to get Jack Martin with no other indigenous players on our list?? Not gonna happen.

[Sedat]

We had Tom Boyd and we didn't need another ruck two years ago
Even having Tom Boyd on the list 2 years ago we were skinny in the ruck. And when he retired suddenly we could have boosted our ruck stocks in the mid season draft in 2019, the trade period in 2019, the national draft/rookie draft in 2019, the supplementary period in 2019 and the mid season draft in 2020, before we finally did something in the trade period in 2020.

[bornadog]

Even having Tom Boyd on the list 2 years ago we were skinny in the ruck. And when he retired suddenly we could have boosted our ruck stocks in the mid season draft in 2019, the trade period in 2019, the national draft/rookie draft in 2019, the supplementary period in 2019 and the mid season draft in 2020, before we finally did something in the trade period in 2020.

Easy to say, but who was available in mid season 2019 and how do you know we didn't try and pickup a ruckman?

Trade period 2019, we picked up Keath and Bruce, so I guess we identified these roles as more important and banked on English to develop.

* Were we skinny when we had Boyd, English, backup in Trengove and a developing Sweet?

* We have the same now, so are we skinny?

Genuine questions.

[jeemak]

1. Treloar's head wasn't in the game. I don't blame him but he didn't look comfortable at all imo. He was still serviceable and will be better for the run. In saying that what a luxury it is to have him in what was arguably the already best midfield in the comp.

2. Ruck is no longer a weak spot. Martin/English combo will cause selection headaches for other teams. They will be forced to go tall against us if Martin and English can keep up the good work. We at least don't look like getting exploited in the ruck anymore.

3. 2021 has the same congestion in the forward line as 2020. We can't do anything about opponents flooding so the brains trust need to come up with strategies to get through it. We can stop flooding our own forward line for starters. Clear our!

Agree, that and with the fact he's not played with the group ever it wasn't disheartening outing though.

[jeemak]

Even having Tom Boyd on the list 2 years ago we were skinny in the ruck. And when he retired suddenly we could have boosted our ruck stocks in the mid season draft in 2019, the trade period in 2019, the national draft/rookie draft in 2019, the supplementary period in 2019 and the mid season draft in 2020, before we finally did something in the trade period in 2020.


Easy to say, but who was available in mid season 2019 and how do you know we didn't try and pickup a ruckman?

Trade period 2019, we picked up Keath and Bruce, so I guess we identified these roles as more important and banked on English to develop.

* Were we skinny when we had Boyd, English, backup in Trengove and a developing Sweet?

* We have the same now, so are we skinny?

Genuine questions.

I think it's OK to say you're both right. We just went a certain way and we are where we are. If we had have prioritised ruck earlier we may have had marginal more success but as a counter to that we may have hampered our ability to build the depth in other positions we have.

List management isn't something that is precise or something that can be viewed in absolutes at any one time. My view is we've been rebuilding and it hopefully looks like we've made a reasonable fist of it. None of it's been perfect, but none of it's been so bad that a material difference would have been made to this point if we'd have gone in a different direction given what was available.

Can't wait to see how this season pans out now that we have seemingly built depth across the ground and have now looked to have found a solution to our ruck situation (noting that it's round one and Martin or English could break down tomorrow).

[Happy Days]

I thought he got fully spooked by getting done for that below the knees free kick. He stopped short of a couple of contests after that (in a manner more thoughtful than squibby), which to me suggests a player thinking way too much about what he was doing rather than doing it.

[Hotdog60]

The below the knees is just another example of the AFL over reacting to a single instance.
Players get told to put their head over the ball and you will be rewarded now days you get penalized instead.
Neither of the frees on Friday night were in the spirit of which the rule was brought in and was a crap call.

[jeemak]

It was actually the standout rule poorly adjudicated Friday night, with a second one being VDM or McNeil I think where there was no slide but possibly a knee on the ground in the action of picking up the ball and getting ready to fire it out.

Going down onto one knee and handballing is perfect technique, because you can actually swivel over and around the knee. I don't think it's the intention of the rule to stamp that out of the game.

[GVGjr]

Even having Tom Boyd on the list 2 years ago we were skinny in the ruck. And when he retired suddenly we could have boosted our ruck stocks in the mid season draft in 2019, the trade period in 2019, the national draft/rookie draft in 2019, the supplementary period in 2019 and the mid season draft in 2020, before we finally did something in the trade period in 2020.

Talked to Boyd at a club function and he said the design was that he would play forward 75% of the game and help out in the ruck for the balance. His back injury and then subsequent retirement exposed a lack of planning and depth.

English was always a long term prospect and Sweet more speculative but also a longer term option. Trengove was originally acquired as a defender who would help out in the ruck. We simply rolled the dice with our ruck options and came up short and Martin now addresses that.

I think we are still light on for ruck depth and really need a versatile tall who can take a spell in the ruck. For the time being Schache and Young probably provide that additional depth.

[Before I Die]

Talked to Boyd at a club function and he said the design was that he would play forward 75% of the game and help out in the ruck for the balance. His back injury and then subsequent retirement exposed a lack of planning and depth.

English was always a long term prospect and Sweet more speculative but also a longer term option. Trengove was originally acquired as a defender who would help out in the ruck. We simply rolled the dice with our ruck options and came up short and Martin now addresses that.

I think we are still light on for ruck depth and really need a versatile tall who can take a spell in the ruck. For the time being Schache and Young probably provide that additional depth.

I guess the mid season draft provides some insurance against a season ending injury to Martin or English, which probably makes our ruck depth less risky.

[GVGjr]

I guess the mid season draft provides some insurance against a season ending injury to Martin or English, which probably makes our ruck depth less risky.

I wouldn't back our chances of recruiting a ruck man mid season no matter what.

With Boyd, we knew his back was a concern and the fact he was seeking external opinions on how to best treat it but still didn't really go out of our way to find other options is a strong indicator we were more than prepared to roll the dice on being a ruck man or two short. When you take that approach if it works then great but if you get caught out then excuses don't really apply.

[Topdog]

We had Tom Boyd and we didn't need another ruck two years ago

Tom Boyd retired in May 2019, the Saints got Ryder in October 2019. Please stop with the Boyd line, we didn't replace him in 2 trade periods

[Mofra]

I think it's OK to say you're both right. We just went a certain way and we are where we are. If we had have prioritised ruck earlier we may have had marginal more success but as a counter to that we may have hampered our ability to build the depth in other positions we have.
IIRC we've chased ruckmen in the past - some Port gumby we almost gave up a first rounder for, and we chased Stef Martin before he signed his last contract with Brisbane.
English has clearly benefited from having Stef at the club, not just on gameday but his ruckwork seems more advanced when he gave Stef a chopout during the game. The benefit of rucking against Martin during pre-season seems a big one.

[Mofra]

It's fine to say that we should have done it, but the personnel need to be willing and available. It's just like saying we should get more indigenous players/clever crumbing forwards, when we have openly chased Wingard and Jack Martin (and probably enquired about others behind closed doors).
We've missed the opportunity to draft one multiple times.
Butler and Bedendo may end up good players for us but those late picks are exactly where you find those indigenous diamonds in the rough who have been toiling away in some dusty small town.
We passed over Winder this year for example who was rated by a few draft watchers.

[GVGjr]

IIRC we've chased ruckmen in the past - some Port gumby we almost gave up a first rounder for, and we chased Stef Martin before he signed his last contract with Brisbane.
English has clearly benefited from having Stef at the club, not just on gameday but his ruckwork seems more advanced when he gave Stef a chopout during the game. The benefit of rucking against Martin during pre-season seems a big one.

Definitely put the feelers out for Lobbe and Martin but we could have still added others via the draft or a trade when those opportunities didn't come through.

[GVGjr]

IIRC we've chased ruckmen in the past - some Port gumby we almost gave up a first rounder for, and we chased Stef Martin before he signed his last contract with Brisbane.
English has clearly benefited from having Stef at the club, not just on gameday but his ruckwork seems more advanced when he gave Stef a chopout during the game. The benefit of rucking against Martin during pre-season seems a big one.

I'd also add that Martin at the club benefits Sweet in a big way

[jeemak]

We could have added someone, but we already had Trengove not playing. I guess whether right or wrong the decision was taken not to draft someone who was highly unlikely to get a game.

[comrade]

We could have added someone, but we already had Trengove not playing. I guess whether right or wrong the decision was taken not to draft someone who was highly unlikely to get a game.

Martin is obviously a far superior ruckman than Trengove, but in hindsight, we should have played him more in that role last year when English was clearly cooked. Giving him one game against the Tigers who turned on their best form to date and then banishing him for good wasn't the best idea, in my opinion. It was almost like 'see it doesn't work' and then moved on.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

We could have added someone, but we already had Trengove not playing. I guess whether right or wrong the decision was taken not to draft someone who was highly unlikely to get a game.

The decision to recruit Trengove and the then not play him is just as strange.

[comrade]

The decision to recruit Trengove and the then not play him is just as strange.

Like keeping Hayes, Jong, Roarke Smith etc on the list. We'd need to cop a glut of injuries just for these blokes to get a look in.

[jeemak]

Martin is obviously a far superior ruckman than Trengove, but in hindsight, we should have played him more in that role last year when English was clearly cooked. Giving him one game against the Tigers who turned on their best form to date and then banishing him for good wasn't the best idea, in my opinion. It was almost like 'see it doesn't work' and then moved on.

I agree he could have been given more of a go, but he was pretty ordinary in that one game nonetheless.

[jeemak]

The decision to recruit Trengove and the then not play him is just as strange.

He played over 70% of games in his first two seasons with us.....and I think was injured for a chunk in his first, so it's not like he wasn't given a thorough opportunity.

[bornadog]

He played over 70% of games in his first two seasons with us.....and I think was injured for a chunk in his first, so it's not like he wasn't given a thorough opportunity.

No use playing someone because they are big.

Unfortunately Trengove was past his best and if he was any good he would still be on a list.,

[GVGjr]

He played over 70% of games in his first two seasons with us.....and I think was injured for a chunk in his first, so it's not like he wasn't given a thorough opportunity.

He was in good enough form last year to have played more. In the leadership group one year, dropped the next and was out of favor with the MC. I suspect JT not being selected wasn't just form related.

[GVGjr]

Like keeping Hayes, Jong, Roarke Smith etc on the list. We'd need to cop a glut of injuries just for these blokes to get a look in.

We actually dropped Hayes didn't we and then scooped him up again?

[comrade]

We actually dropped Hayes didn't we and then scooped him up again?

Yes. Why?

[jeemak]

He was in good enough form last year to have played more. In the leadership group one year, dropped the next and was out of favor with the MC. I suspect JT not being selected wasn't just form related.

Possibly/ probably right. Though I was responding to the claim he wasn't played after he was recruited, when he was clearly given opportunities.

[GVGjr]

Possibly/ probably right. Though I was responding to the claim he wasn't played after he was recruited, when he was clearly given opportunities.

You're right, he had his chances and if you recall in 2019 when he got back into the side after round 5 we started to improve

[soupman]

We've missed the opportunity to draft one multiple times.
Butler and Bedendo may end up good players for us but those late picks are exactly where you find those indigenous diamonds in the rough who have been toiling away in some dusty small town.
We passed over Winder this year for example who was rated by a few draft watchers.

This is what has frustrated me.

We continue to grab a bunch of mid sized quickish marking forwards and ok skilled ok paced undersized mids and a bunch of third tallish extra mobile versatile defenders, and then give them all 3 years each at a minimum to prove they aren't good enough.

We then bemoan how we have been unable to uncover a competent ruck, or a key defender, or a crumbing forward. And amazingly all those positions we need are the easiest to find with late draft picks and through the rookie system. For me we need to stop picking up guys that we can't play and instead churn through guys in the positions we need.

I've covered this before but instead of the 7 years of Roarke we have had we could've given 4 genuine crumbing forwards 2 years each to prove they are good enough. Porter was on our list for 3 years for 1 of the most underwhelming games ever. I'm not even sure what we were hoping he would offer that we don't already have in abundance.

Bedendo seems high upside but we don't need a high upside mobile marking forward when we already have Naughton, Dale (at the time at least), Hannan, Weightman, Jamarra and Schache fighting for what, 3 spots at most?

[Ozza]

Like keeping Hayes, Jong, Roarke Smith etc on the list. We'd need to cop a glut of injuries just for these blokes to get a look in.

And that is perfectly fine, because we'd be paying them very little (in an AFL footballer sense), and you still have to fill a list and have depth there for the seasons where 36+ players end up playing at some point (which for us....is most years).

The reality is, with rotations being reduced to 75, there's never been a better time to load up with mids/running types.

In terms of other types, we've got a pick 1 and a pick 2 - both tall forwards, who aren't currently in the best 22(23), a premiership CHF/CHB being kept out, as well as Khamis and Young who can play key tall back if needed - all out of the side.

[comrade]

And that is perfectly fine, because we'd be paying them very little (in an AFL footballer sense), and you still have to fill a list and have depth there for the seasons where 36+ players end up playing at some point (which for us....is most years).

We could also be paying very little to players that could develop to fill more pressing needs than just injury depth.

[jeemak]

I guess the question would be are they more likely to get a game than whoever we currently have playing those roles or roles that could be substituted for theirs (given we have West, Weightman and Cavarra not getting a game)? And are they more likely to be needed than the midfield depth that's been built?