Western Bulldogs’ fall from grace

[GVGjr]

Five things that have contributed to Western Bulldogs’ fall from grace (https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/afl-five-things-that-have-contributed-to-western-bulldogs-fall-from-grace/news-story/0b5f04be870a7426cd6fc42935ba08f5)

Boring, average and almost irrelevant, how did it get to this for last year’s grand finalists? Scott Gullan on the Western Bulldogs’ woe.

https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/07af276be30d36d631d3e88c44c29c01

It‘s the biggest question in football right now: What has happened to the Western Bulldogs?

Last year‘s grand finalists have become boring, average and are not far away from being irrelevant.

This was one of the most exciting teams in the game 12 months ago. So where has it all gone wrong?

There doesn‘t seem to be one main obvious place to point the finger at, more a build-up of various things which have conspired to have the blowtorch pointing Luke Beveridge’s way.

When he brought the club its second premiership in 2016, the thought of that man ever feeling any pressure at the Whitten Oval was laughable. The job for life was the call as a dynasty awaited.

A decent premiership hangover was a problem for a couple of years but when the Dogs led by 19 points midway through the third quarter of last year‘s grand final against Melbourne – after another heroic march through September – the Bevo magic was back.

Maybe he‘s lost his wand because all is not well out west with the next month set to answer a lot of questions.

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The Bulldogs are currently a game outside the eight – they face St Kilda on Friday night who are one spot ahead of them in ninth – and then play the top three teams over the next three weeks.

There are different ways to look at what has happened. Are they just purely having one of those years where nothing goes right? Is it just a loss of confidence? Or are they a fractured football club?

Here are five issues haunting the Bulldogs:

1. DEFENCE

The stats over the past five weeks are embarrassing. The Dogs are ranked either 16th, 17th or 18th in categories such as points against, opposition scores per inside 50 and points against from turnovers. Personnel wise Ryan Gardner is limited, Alex Keath is banged up and asked to do too much, Bailey Williams has lost confidence while recruit Tim O‘Brien has been a bust and was dropped last week.

They have no intercept markers anymore – Easton Wood’s retirement has cut deep – but the real issues are further up the field with the highly-rated midfield.

“You can‘t defend when you’re all out offence in the midfielder. Last year they had total control of the ball around the contest so they could protect some issues down back but they don’t have that this year,” one rival club analyst said.

2. JOSH BRUCE

Bruce has become a better player by not playing. There is no doubt his presence helps relieve the pressure on Aaron Naughton and in his absence the Dogs have managed to scrape together enough decent scores, particularly thanks to the work of Cody Weightman, but it‘s not sustainable in big games against the top teams.
Luke Beveridge has lost plenty of experience in his coaching circle.

3. SUPPORT

Losing long-time assistant Steven King was a blow the Dogs knew was coming but they were blindsided with highly rated Ashley Hansen went to Carlton. They were then late into the market for replacements with the inexperienced Matt Spangher and Marc Webb struggling to fill the void. All of this has added further pressure on Beveridge who had previously been accused of micromanaging.

4. ABSENCE

Every club has players missing but the Dogs have had it happen to the wrong people. Bailey Smith getting caught doing drugs and headbutting people hurt big time as did Lachie Hunter taking time away from the game. Ruckman Tim English having a number of concussion breaks, Jason Johannisen missing half the season, and Taylor Duryea‘s recent knee injury have all impacted continuity.

5. LEWIS YOUNG

Lewis Young has turned into Geoff Southby since he left but what can‘t be ignored is why the Dogs let a 201cm defender go who they’d put five years of development into. Selection has been an issue for a number of years with blind faith shown to players who many wouldn’t think deserve it – think the patience given to the likes of Josh Schache, Roarke Smith, Anthony Scott and Robbie McComb.

[Vred]

Not a single word of a lie here, glad the media is starting to dig into the club and point out our glaring issues that fans have been going on about for years...

[comrade]

What a load of shallow garbage that doesn’t even scratch the surface as to what’s going on this year.

Easton Wood was no longer an interceptor and his retirement has had no bearing on our performance beyond providing some leadership on field. Duryea has been a bigger loss to the back 6 by far.

Lewis Young is a reason we’ve fallen from grace? Please. Yes, we look very silly for letting him go but again, his departure has no bearing on our ladder position this year (unless the group are pissed we mucked his development around and effectively pushed him out the door and they’re rebelling via crappy performances?).

The lack of support for Bevo probably gets closer to the source of our issues but Gullan has no real idea (as all of us here don’t either) about who does what within the four walls of the club. We’re a closed shop.

Yes, Bruce is a big hole in our structure but one we knew we needed to fill for 12 months at a minimum yet didn’t. A better line of enquiry would be why we didn’t/couldn’t.

Heat rightfully needs to be applied on the club and our underperformance this year (and how we fell apart late last year) but this article is tilting at windmills.

[azabob]

Who wrote the article?

Edit I'm assuming Scott Gullan according to Comrade's post.

[GVGjr]

Who wrote the article?

Edit I'm assuming Scott Gullan according to Comrade's post.

Yes it was Gullan, I agree with Comrade that it's a very shallow article. Expected better.
The points are valid just not a lot of depth with what he is saying. I don't think it had much to do with the loss.

[Grantysghost]

Yes it was Gullan, I agree with Comrade that it's a very shallow article. Expected better.
The points are valid just not a lot of depth with what he is saying. I don't think it had much to do with the loss.

From the HUN?

[Sedat]

Gullan is notionally a Dogs man but he's spent the last decade or so sniffing panties down at Kardinia Park.

I've seen wading pools that are less shallow than that article.

[1eyedog]

What a load of shallow garbage that doesn’t even scratch the surface as to what’s going on this year.

Easton Wood was no longer an interceptor and his retirement has had no bearing on our performance beyond providing some leadership on field. Duryea has been a bigger loss to the back 6 by far.

Lewis Young is a reason we’ve fallen from grace? Please. Yes, we look very silly for letting him go but again, his departure has no bearing on our ladder position this year (unless the group are pissed we mucked his development around and effectively pushed him out the door and they’re rebelling via crappy performances?).

The lack of support for Bevo probably gets closer to the source of our issues but Gullan has no real idea (as all of us here don’t either) about who does what within the four walls of the club. We’re a closed shop.

Yes, Bruce is a big hole in our structure but one we knew we needed to fill for 12 months at a minimum yet didn’t. A better line of enquiry would be why we didn’t/couldn’t.

Heat rightfully needs to be applied on the club and our underperformance this year (and how we fell apart late last year) but this article is tilting at windmills.

Agreed. With the exception of Liba there was no where near enough heat put on the downhill skiers that are our midfield in that article. They're lazy and expect it to happen / expect someone else to do the heavy lifing everytime.

[1eyedog]

Yes it was Gullan, I agree with Comrade that it's a very shallow article. Expected better
The points are valid just not a lot of depth with what he is saying. I don't think it had much to do with the loss.

Kinda does smack of irrelevance.

[GVGjr]

From the HUN?

From Gullan

[FrediKanoute]

What a load of shallow garbage that doesn’t even scratch the surface as to what’s going on this year.

Easton Wood was no longer an interceptor and his retirement has had no bearing on our performance beyond providing some leadership on field. Duryea has been a bigger loss to the back 6 by far.

Lewis Young is a reason we’ve fallen from grace? Please. Yes, we look very silly for letting him go but again, his departure has no bearing on our ladder position this year (unless the group are pissed we mucked his development around and effectively pushed him out the door and they’re rebelling via crappy performances?).

The lack of support for Bevo probably gets closer to the source of our issues but Gullan has no real idea (as all of us here don’t either) about who does what within the four walls of the club. We’re a closed shop.

Yes, Bruce is a big hole in our structure but one we knew we needed to fill for 12 months at a minimum yet didn’t. A better line of enquiry would be why we didn’t/couldn’t.

Heat rightfully needs to be applied on the club and our underperformance this year (and how we fell apart late last year) but this article is tilting at windmills.

I think you're sort of right. So some counter points:

1) Wood in 2021 was not Wood in 2016, but as someone who could zone off and take a mark, using his athleticism to cut off opposition attacks he is someone we are missing more than we realise. O'Brien was seen as the Wood replacement, but he hasn't hit the mark either as an interceptor or as a lockdown backman;

2) L Young is a loss and probably bigger than we realise. At 25 he has 6 or 7 years ahead of him as a key back. Now he is not the interceptor, but moving him on has meant that Keath contnues to have to play the lockdown role he is not suited to. Where Keath could become our interceptor, L Young going means we have to use him as a key defender. Young for O'Brien was bad business in October and it's a rank prawn in the sun now;

3) Hansen's unplannned departure on the back of King's departure has hurt. Coming so late in the day we really didn't fill the gap all that well and in hindsight it has resulted in a coaching team that is not all dinging from the same hymm sheet. Bevo needs more support. He needs a mature and experienced No.2 who can take some of the pressure off him, but also challenge both him and the other coaches. Every good exec has a number 2 to do their dirty work. We agree on this point.

4) Not replacing Josh Bruce.......what were we thinking? Maybe we hope JUH would develop. Maybe we hoped that Schache would blossom with the opportunity. To be honest the best we have looked up front is when Khamis played alongside Naughton. It was a mistake, but a mistake Blind Freddy on a night on the gas could have seen.

I think the article scratches the surface (in true HS style). The Kennel is not a happy place at the moment.

[comrade]

I think you're sort of right. So some counter points:

1) Wood in 2021 was not Wood in 2016, but as someone who could zone off and take a mark, using his athleticism to cut off opposition attacks he is someone we are missing more than we realise. O'Brien was seen as the Wood replacement, but he hasn't hit the mark either as an interceptor or as a lockdown backman;

2) L Young is a loss and probably bigger than we realise. At 25 he has 6 or 7 years ahead of him as a key back. Now he is not the interceptor, but moving him on has meant that Keath contnues to have to play the lockdown role he is not suited to. Where Keath could become our interceptor, L Young going means we have to use him as a key defender. Young for O'Brien was bad business in October and it's a rank prawn in the sun now;

3) Hansen's unplannned departure on the back of King's departure has hurt. Coming so late in the day we really didn't fill the gap all that well and in hindsight it has resulted in a coaching team that is not all dinging from the same hymm sheet. Bevo needs more support. He needs a mature and experienced No.2 who can take some of the pressure off him, but also challenge both him and the other coaches. Every good exec has a number 2 to do their dirty work. We agree on this point.

4) Not replacing Josh Bruce.......what were we thinking? Maybe we hope JUH would develop. Maybe we hoped that Schache would blossom with the opportunity. To be honest the best we have looked up front is when Khamis played alongside Naughton. It was a mistake, but a mistake Blind Freddy on a night on the gas could have seen.

I think the article scratches the surface (in true HS style). The Kennel is not a happy place at the moment.

I love Easton but he was gifted a spot in that GF team. He should have been dropped after the Essendon debacle. He was largely poor throughout 2021 culminating in a horror game up against Fritsch. O’Brien hasn’t been great but he wasn’t replacing much.

Lewis Young’s last contribution to our team was as primary ruck man (a true wtf decision!). He wasn’t ever someone we had to replace in defence and it’s unlikely he was even in the coaching group’s consideration for this year.

I agree that Bevo’s support cast is probably a factor in our underperforming but not the above two.

[G-Mo77]

Not a lot wrong in that article.

Defence in midfield is non existent, so tick there. Back six poor this season a tick there as well. We might be able to stem some bleeding if the midfield would work harder, even if they did I have no faith in the backline. It's poor and I'm being soft on them.

Bruce was gone for 12 months, we did nothing to counter that, the result of that Naughton getting put through the wringer each week. There were plenty of secondary rucks on the market in the offseason. We turned our noses up at most and kept Martin on for another season.

Coaching staff, another tick. I've said enough on this. We are not putting the right people around our heard coach or our coach is putting the wrong people a round him. Choosing a friend who has no experience at all leads me to believe that he had finals say in that selection.

Injuries again yes, we have been cruelled by them like previous seasons. Have we done anything to try and improve in this area or are we just saying it's bad luck? I don't know the answer to this, nothing has come out and said we're trying to address it. I still think selecting balanced teams and less experimentation we would have had more W's on the board to counter it but that's another subject.

A lot of peeps getting worked up over the Lewis Young part for and against. Yes we would have been better with him in the team, how anyone can say we wouldn't is playing defence but he wouldn't have changed many results either. The fact that we didn't develop him here and has flourished in a new system is a real eye opener and really disappointing.

This article nailed the 5 small points they raised and if they dug deeper could have put in some more.

[WBFC4FFC]

FWIW:

Coaching issues were known to be tough going into this season. Don't forget we have lost Guido as well 12-months earlier. Hansen's poaching stuffed things-up for this season. An experienced head who talks his mind and is tactically sound is required.

As for the on-field performance, last week was the first shocker for the year. Bris had one a week before our game and everyone put their effort down to being a one-off shocker. Ditto Syd against the Bummers. We played both Bris and Syd on their patch on the rebound.

Against Bris we had our chances but could not stop their movement out of defence once they did get through. Against Syd, didn't Syd also register the highest pressure rating of any side this year? When you are slightly off against that, it goes pear shape in a hurry. (Still should have been closer to them at the half though but they had their chances in the first).

Having said that the Club/Bevo should not write-off the performance. There has been too many instances of a bad quarter here and there ruining the team's ability to get over the line this season. Midfield needs to become more accountable when not in possession. Also, more uncompromising grunt/mongrel across the field. Can't just be left to Libba.

As well, Bevo does a few risky things which mainly work. Both Hannon and Treloar in the back-half was way too out there. Up there with Wood as a Forward but like I said, Bevo's brain f@rts work more often than not.

Don't forget with Lewis Young and Lipinski, we keep them then we don't get Darcy or another pick in the draft. Here's hoping JUH and Darcy show soon why the Club let go some decent players for absolute guns!

One final point. If the Club was not harmonious off the field, we would not have signed everyone bar Smith and Dunkley at this juncture.

Culturally the Club appears sound, just need some more footy nous to assist.

[dalek]

Everyone says about employing 2 untried assistants while I don't agree with the appointments but they were probably the best at the time because of the lateness of losing Hansen.

[Bullies]

Not a lot wrong in that article.

Defence in midfield is non existent, so tick there. Back six poor this season a tick there as well. We might be able to stem some bleeding if the midfield would work harder, even if they did I have no faith in the backline. It's poor and I'm being soft on them.

Bruce was gone for 12 months, we did nothing to counter that, the result of that Naughton getting put through the wringer each week. There were plenty of secondary rucks on the market in the offseason. We turned our noses up at most and kept Martin on for another season.

Coaching staff, another tick. I've said enough on this. We are not putting the right people around our heard coach or our coach is putting the wrong people a round him. Choosing a friend who has no experience at all leads me to believe that he had finals say in that selection.

Injuries again yes, we have been cruelled by them like previous seasons. Have we done anything to try and improve in this area or are we just saying it's bad luck? I don't know the answer to this, nothing has come out and said we're trying to address it. I still think selecting balanced teams and less experimentation we would have had more W's on the board to counter it but that's another subject.

A lot of peeps getting worked up over the Lewis Young part for and against. Yes we would have been better with him in the team, how anyone can say we wouldn't is playing defence but he wouldn't have changed many results either. The fact that we didn't develop him here and has flourished in a new system is a real eye opener and really disappointing.

This article nailed the 5 small points they raised and if they dug deeper could have put in some more. That manic pressure we applied in the midfield resulted in so many turnovers. That is no longer there and as such defense is under so much pressure as a result.

We were throwing the ball around and running in waves. Very rarely do you see that this year.

Players have to be accountable for that as well. Bont not being full fit doesn't help. He led by example. Put him out early and get him right for next year with his ankle and shoulder surgery.

Very hard to now expect to turn it around this year but I am sure a change in personnel and players will ensure we will be very competitive again next year.

[GVGjr]

Everyone says about employing 2 untried assistants while I don't agree with the appointments but they were probably the best at the time because of the lateness of losing Hansen.

Hansen had accepted a contract with us to be the senior assistant and I would have held him to it.

[WBFC4FFC]

That manic pressure we applied in the midfield resulted in so many turnovers. That is no longer there and as such defense is under so much pressure as a result.

We were throwing the ball around and running in waves. Very rarely do you see that this year.

Players have to be accountable for that as well. Bont not being full fit doesn't help. He led by example. Put him out early and get him right for next year with his ankle and shoulder surgery.

Very hard to now expect to turn it around this year but I am sure a change in personnel and players will ensure we will be very competitive again next year.

Bingo!

Manic Pressure in the middle is not there.

I have read elsewhere before that it is not sustainable over time, no matter which sides is delivering on this in the present.

[FrediKanoute]

I love Easton but he was gifted a spot in that GF team. He should have been dropped after the Essendon debacle. He was largely poor throughout 2021 culminating in a horror game up against Fritsch. O’Brien hasn’t been great but he wasn’t replacing much.

Lewis Young’s last contribution to our team was as primary ruck man (a true wtf decision!). He wasn’t ever someone we had to replace in defence and it’s unlikely he was even in the coaching group’s consideration for this year.

I agree that Bevo’s support cast is probably a factor in our underperforming but not the above two.

Wrong match up for Fristch. Dureya should have taken him. One game though vs a pretty good season. Woudl rank EW's 2021 and > then TO'B's 2022. He may have had a dirty day in the GF, but he contributed enough during the year to justify a place.

I think you are making my point for me with L Young- he was never a ruckman, we just wanted him to be and in doing so lost a tall backman. My firm believe is that L Young's departure will be the biggest list management f*ck up of Bevo's tenure - Keep Young and you don't need TO'B. Given Keath's injury problems, Young in 2022 would (well never a given, so should) have played more games. I have seller's regret over him.

[comrade]

Wrong match up for Fristch. Dureya should have taken him. One game though vs a pretty good season. Woudl rank EW's 2021 and > then TO'B's 2022. He may have had a dirty day in the GF, but he contributed enough during the year to justify a place.

I think you are making my point for me with L Young- he was never a ruckman, we just wanted him to be and in doing so lost a tall backman. My firm believe is that L Young's departure will be the biggest list management f*ck up of Bevo's tenure - Keep Young and you don't need TO'B. Given Keath's injury problems, Young in 2022 would (well never a given, so should) have played more games. I have seller's regret over him.

My point is Lewis Young is not a reason for our ‘fall from grace’ and drop in ladder position from 2021. He contributed nothing to our success last year and would most likely have spent 2022 being shuffled around from ruck to forward to back in the VFL if he was still on the list - just like prior years.

[MrMahatma]

Hayes played for Carlton on the weekend.

I mean, they may be having a good year but you can’t say their depth is awesome if Will is getting a run.

I’ve seen a bit of Young in navy blue and reckon he’s been poor in the matches I’ve seen. Not sure it’s all it’s cracked up to be. That said, would rather we played him in KPD and developed him in the past 2 seasons and see how we went. O’Brien looks a bust and worse than Young.

[Bulldog4life]

Hayes played for Carlton on the weekend.

I mean, they may be having a good year but you can’t say their depth is awesome if Will is getting a run.

I’ve seen a bit of Young in navy blue and reckon he’s been poor in the matches I’ve seen. Not sure it’s all it’s cracked up to be. That said, would rather we played him in KPD and developed him in the past 2 seasons and see how we went. O’Brien looks a bust and worse than Young.

Agree with this. Be interesting if he figures in finals.

[Grantysghost]

Hayes played for Carlton on the weekend.

I mean, they may be having a good year but you can’t say their depth is awesome if Will is getting a run.

I’ve seen a bit of Young in navy blue and reckon he’s been poor in the matches I’ve seen. Not sure it’s all it’s cracked up to be. That said, would rather we played him in KPD and developed him in the past 2 seasons and see how we went. O’Brien looks a bust and worse than Young.

If you just look at that decision, Young out O'Brien in then regardless of Young's ability it seems a net loss or break even at this stage.

Not sure what our recruiting team saw in Tim that made him appealing. His track record was less than impressive.

Do they even talk to opposition coaches?

[azabob]

Just on Lewis Young the facts as I remember them are.

Young was out of contract
We offered Young a contract
Young chose to leave (can't blame him)

It wasn't as though we delisted him or actively chose to trade him.

Exactly the same scenario as Lipinski.

[GVGjr]

My point is Lewis Young is not a reason for our ‘fall from grace’ and drop in ladder position from 2021. He contributed nothing to our success last year and would most likely have spent 2022 being shuffled around from ruck to forward to back in the VFL if he was still on the list - just like prior years.

While I agree with you, the selection lotto that had Young playing in the ruck and up forward and moving between the seniors and VFL throughout 2021 has in some ways played its part in where we are now. We have an unbalanced list and using someone like Young has contributed to that.
He's been a solid player for Carlton during their challenges this year with injured players.

[mjp]

The Sydney game led directly to this article.

Nothing it mentioned - Young, Bruce, Assistants, Defending or 'Absences' had a single thing to do with last week's performance and is a complete cop-out.

Not having a week-in, week-out commitment to play with effort has been an issue for this group of players going back to 2018. Every year we dish up really poor performances against teams in the lower echelons of the ladder and show that whilst we can be hard to play against, when we get it 'wrong' it goes really wrong.

Last week? Blame the backs all you like but the lack of effort from English, Bont, Macrae and Dunks was the reason for the loss. Warner - a second year player who cannot kick - was the best mid on the ground in the first half because he:
1/. Is determined to be first to the ball.
2/. Gets lower and harder than everyone else.
3/. Treats transition running - back and forward - as an opportunity to impact the game rather than something you do when you have too.

The Swans - led by Warner - smashed us. To me, articles like this - whilst they aren't wrong - paper over the cracks of what the REAL issue is.

Jackson Macrae is an amazing footballer and the single best ball winner I have ever seen. But when the hosts of an AFL Fantasy podcast make ongoing jokes about his 'head tilt' and poor body language anytime he lines up away from his preferred position, well, that's a problem. It happens so often that they joke about it? It's not good enough.

I have said it before but I sincerely wonder sometimes whether we have a group of players to whom playing 'WELL' (individually) is more important than winning games of footy. I get shouted down and criticised every time I say that, but watch the first quarter of last week's game again and tell me I'm wrong. Tell me that aside from Liber, West and Naughton that we are a team with positive body language desperate to win the footy and work for one another.

Our game-day effort remains conditional. I will say this forever and reiterate that what happened in the second half of the GF can be laid squarely at the feet of our best players - Melbourne KILLED us out of the middle and no-one was prepared to:
1/. Make a stand
2/. Sacrifice their game
3/. Lead their team-mates

I started a thread saying it's a hard team to love - it is. We have some brilliant players but our effort is conditional. Should Bevo have moved Treloar and Hannan to the back half? Well, maybe not. But Treloar was OK back there and has a lot of attributes that could see him be really effective in that role...those things didn't cost us the game. English refusing to make body contact in ruck contests vs Ladhams was really poor. Warner setting the standard for winning the ball was really poor (by us).

Blame the club for not holding Hansen to his contract and allowing Young to go to Carlton if you like - those things are convenient after all - but our BEST PLAYERS (Bont, Macrae, Dunks and English) had their butts handed to them and that is why we lost.

[GVGjr]

Just on Lewis Young the facts as I remember them are.

Young was out of contract
We offered Young a contract
Young chose to leave (can't blame him)

It wasn't as though we delisted him or actively chose to trade him.

Exactly the same scenario as Lipinski.

He left for opportunity. You can imagine he didn't believe he would get a regular game with us.

[Topdog]

I have said it before but I sincerely wonder sometimes whether we have a group of players to whom playing 'WELL' (individually) is more important than winning games of footy. I get shouted down and criticised every time I say that, but watch the first quarter of last week's game again and tell me I'm wrong. Tell me that aside from Liber, West and Naughton that we are a team with positive body language desperate to win the footy and work for one another.


Yep I can't think of another name that could be added to those 3. We miss players that just come in and do their job week in, week out. You can blame injuries but in reality we only have 6 or 7 in our best 22 that are 100% committed 100% of the time.

[Grantysghost]

Yep I can't think of another name that could be added to those 3. We miss players that just come in and do their job week in, week out. You can blame injuries but in reality we only have 6 or 7 in our best 22 that are 100% committed 100% of the time.

Why is the question though? Surely this has been addressed by the coaching group. Are we saying these guys just don't listen?

Dunks, Libba and Smith you simply can't question their effort/commitment both ways.

Bont - well prior to this year I would never have questioned anything he does.

That leaves Jacko, Hunter, Treloar of the regulars. Hunter is committed both ways. The other two, well you could question that aspect of their game for sure but I don't think it's a major issue?

I'm kind of confused with the commentary around the mids. I get they're held to a very high standard.

Is it more about them as a group more than individuals?

Smith being out really makes our midfield group look very very slow and one paced.

I'm defending the mids!! xD #teammidfield

[Bullies]

If you just look at that decision, Young out O'Brien in then regardless of Young's ability it seems a net loss or break even at this stage.

Not sure what our recruiting team saw in Tim that made him appealing. His track record was less than impressive.

Do they even talk to opposition coaches? O'Brien replacing Young is no break even it is a huge loss to us. Young despite what some may say is travelling well at Carlton and doing some good jobs with Weitering out.

We were warned what we were getting from Hawthorn supporters with O'Brien and to think he was recruited as an intercept defender to replace Wood. To be honest you don't want the ball anywhere near his hands.

[mjp]

Dunks, Libba and Smith you simply can't question their effort/commitment both ways.


I'm questioning Dunks right now.

[Grantysghost]

https://media.giphy.com/media/wPZhtUm53H5lu/giphy.gif
I'm questioning Dunks right now.

[Topdog]

I'm kind of confused with the commentary around the mids. I get they're held to a very high standard.

Is it more about them as a group more than individuals?


Watch the last 40 minutes of the Grand Final again.

I dont know if its the players, the coaching or both but our mids are often 100% offence minded so anytime the opposition midfield gets on top we are smashed by 40 points in a qtr.

[Grantysghost]

Watch the last 40 minutes of the Grand Final again.

I dont know if its the players, the coaching or both but our mids are often 100% offence minded so anytime the opposition midfield gets on top we are smashed by 40 points in a qtr.

There was a GF?

I reckon part of it was complete exhaustion from the AFL's travelling circus fake finals series.

[Mantis]

I'm questioning Dunks right now.

I think he's checked out... it would be a huge shock if he is with us next year.

[G-Mo77]

If you just look at that decision, Young out O'Brien in then regardless of Young's ability it seems a net loss or break even at this stage.

Not sure what our recruiting team saw in Tim that made him appealing. His track record was less than impressive.

Do they even talk to opposition coaches?

And we signed him for 3 years. Yikes.

[hujsh]

I'm questioning Dunks right now.

I think Dunks looks like he's putting in the defensive effort because he tackles and smothers when the ball is in the immediate area. Not sure he's better than anyone else when it comes to 2-way running though

[Sedat]

The Sydney game led directly to this article.

Nothing it mentioned - Young, Bruce, Assistants, Defending or 'Absences' had a single thing to do with last week's performance and is a complete cop-out.

Not having a week-in, week-out commitment to play with effort has been an issue for this group of players going back to 2018. Every year we dish up really poor performances against teams in the lower echelons of the ladder and show that whilst we can be hard to play against, when we get it 'wrong' it goes really wrong.

Last week? Blame the backs all you like but the lack of effort from English, Bont, Macrae and Dunks was the reason for the loss. Warner - a second year player who cannot kick - was the best mid on the ground in the first half because he:
1/. Is determined to be first to the ball.
2/. Gets lower and harder than everyone else.
3/. Treats transition running - back and forward - as an opportunity to impact the game rather than something you do when you have too.

The Swans - led by Warner - smashed us. To me, articles like this - whilst they aren't wrong - paper over the cracks of what the REAL issue is.

Jackson Macrae is an amazing footballer and the single best ball winner I have ever seen. But when the hosts of an AFL Fantasy podcast make ongoing jokes about his 'head tilt' and poor body language anytime he lines up away from his preferred position, well, that's a problem. It happens so often that they joke about it? It's not good enough.

I have said it before but I sincerely wonder sometimes whether we have a group of players to whom playing 'WELL' (individually) is more important than winning games of footy. I get shouted down and criticised every time I say that, but watch the first quarter of last week's game again and tell me I'm wrong. Tell me that aside from Liber, West and Naughton that we are a team with positive body language desperate to win the footy and work for one another.

Our game-day effort remains conditional. I will say this forever and reiterate that what happened in the second half of the GF can be laid squarely at the feet of our best players - Melbourne KILLED us out of the middle and no-one was prepared to:
1/. Make a stand
2/. Sacrifice their game
3/. Lead their team-mates

I started a thread saying it's a hard team to love - it is. We have some brilliant players but our effort is conditional. Should Bevo have moved Treloar and Hannan to the back half? Well, maybe not. But Treloar was OK back there and has a lot of attributes that could see him be really effective in that role...those things didn't cost us the game. English refusing to make body contact in ruck contests vs Ladhams was really poor. Warner setting the standard for winning the ball was really poor (by us).

Blame the club for not holding Hansen to his contract and allowing Young to go to Carlton if you like - those things are convenient after all - but our BEST PLAYERS (Bont, Macrae, Dunks and English) had their butts handed to them and that is why we lost.
Truth bombs everywhere.

Our very best players cost us a premiership last year. It is hard to write but it is undeniable. We basically lost a premiership because of 7 minutes of complete and utter madness from our leaders and best players in the middle - yes I know those same players got us into the position to win one in the first place (it's complicated). That 7 minutes was a distillation of the same problems that we haven't been able to overcome since our premiership. We are conditional. We don't strive for the collective greater good. And we haven't changed this in 2022.

Everything else referenced in the article is small potatoes. We don't have the collective buy-in to a team-first ethos. And we will tread water/regress if we don't look in the mirror and acknowledge this is the single biggest issue holding us back.

[jeemak]

The Sydney game led directly to this article.

Nothing it mentioned - Young, Bruce, Assistants, Defending or 'Absences' had a single thing to do with last week's performance and is a complete cop-out.

Not having a week-in, week-out commitment to play with effort has been an issue for this group of players going back to 2018. Every year we dish up really poor performances against teams in the lower echelons of the ladder and show that whilst we can be hard to play against, when we get it 'wrong' it goes really wrong.

Last week? Blame the backs all you like but the lack of effort from English, Bont, Macrae and Dunks was the reason for the loss. Warner - a second year player who cannot kick - was the best mid on the ground in the first half because he:
1/. Is determined to be first to the ball.
2/. Gets lower and harder than everyone else.
3/. Treats transition running - back and forward - as an opportunity to impact the game rather than something you do when you have too.

The Swans - led by Warner - smashed us. To me, articles like this - whilst they aren't wrong - paper over the cracks of what the REAL issue is.

Jackson Macrae is an amazing footballer and the single best ball winner I have ever seen. But when the hosts of an AFL Fantasy podcast make ongoing jokes about his 'head tilt' and poor body language anytime he lines up away from his preferred position, well, that's a problem. It happens so often that they joke about it? It's not good enough.

I have said it before but I sincerely wonder sometimes whether we have a group of players to whom playing 'WELL' (individually) is more important than winning games of footy. I get shouted down and criticised every time I say that, but watch the first quarter of last week's game again and tell me I'm wrong. Tell me that aside from Liber, West and Naughton that we are a team with positive body language desperate to win the footy and work for one another.

Our game-day effort remains conditional. I will say this forever and reiterate that what happened in the second half of the GF can be laid squarely at the feet of our best players - Melbourne KILLED us out of the middle and no-one was prepared to:
1/. Make a stand
2/. Sacrifice their game
3/. Lead their team-mates

I started a thread saying it's a hard team to love - it is. We have some brilliant players but our effort is conditional. Should Bevo have moved Treloar and Hannan to the back half? Well, maybe not. But Treloar was OK back there and has a lot of attributes that could see him be really effective in that role...those things didn't cost us the game. English refusing to make body contact in ruck contests vs Ladhams was really poor. Warner setting the standard for winning the ball was really poor (by us).

Blame the club for not holding Hansen to his contract and allowing Young to go to Carlton if you like - those things are convenient after all - but our BEST PLAYERS (Bont, Macrae, Dunks and English) had their butts handed to them and that is why we lost.

Hallelujah! Testify!

Libba doesn't get a free pass from me re the Grand Final - he was just as much to blame as any other person on the ground for what happened in that third.

However, he's usually pretty good and the least prone to lapses of the lot of them.

The midfield mix will naturally change next year, with the likely departure of Dunkley. I really want us to make sure we add some grunt/ mongrel/ grind to the midfield mix once he's gone.

[Grantysghost]

Hallelujah! Testify!

Libba doesn't get a free pass from me re the Grand Final - he was just as much to blame as any other person on the ground for what happened in that third.

However, he's usually pretty good and the least prone to lapses of the lot of them.

The midfield mix will naturally change next year, with the likely departure of Dunkley. I really want us to make sure we add some grunt/ mongrel/ grind to the midfield mix once he's gone.

I just know you were smiling and singing testify by RATM when you typed this.

[DOG GOD]

Unfortunately for us O’Brien played the best game of his life against us in Launceston last year where he took like 15 defensive marks. We obviously thought he could do that against any team…nope.

[DOG GOD]

Regarding our mids, the biggest villain to my eyes is macrae. Completely refuses to put in the hard yards both ways. Even 3 mins into the 3rd quarter last week, whenever the ball was moving away from him he was “treadmill jogging” like he’d just run a marathon. His body language can be deplorable and if it meant keeping him or Dunkley, I’d be keeping dunks.

[Sedat]

Unfortunately for us O’Brien played the best game of his life against us in Launceston last year where he took like 15 defensive marks. We obviously thought he could do that against any team…nope.
We did the same thing with Daniel Bandy, recruiting him after he played his one blinder against us. I like to think we also did it with Ed Barlow, except we got him mixed up with Luke Vogels.

[jeemak]

I just know you were smiling and singing testify by RATM when you typed this.

Ha.

Not really.

I don't want to lose any of our midfielders. I just want them to sacrifice their individual games for the team when it's their turn to do so and show up each week with a consistently high level of intensity.

[Axe Man]

And we signed him for 3 years. Yikes.

As I have said previously, no we didn't.

[G-Mo77]

As I have said previously, no we didn't.

Apologies it's 2 years.

[jeemak]

As I have said previously, no we didn't.

How would we ever know how long he's contracted for?

[Grantysghost]

Ha.

Not really.

I don't want to lose any of our midfielders. I just want them to sacrifice their individual games for the team when it's their turn to do so and show up each week with a consistently high level of intensity.

I agree to a point, but we can't ignore the variables at play.

Melbourne have a once in a generation midfield trifecta with Gawn, Petracca and Oliver. They just played out of their skin. Petracca for me is the best player in the game currently.
Coaching? What are we doing to fix this strategically it can't be all effort based; granted from what you learned gents are saying it's a big part.

I'm loathe to be putting the boots into a group I believe is the best across any line the Dogs have had.

I guess my point is, if the effort is conditional what can we do to change that? How do we absorb those down moments better? Can we?

[1eyedog]

How would we ever know how long he's contracted for?

Would be legit worthwhile if one of us started a thread detailing the contract status of all listed players.

[Sedat]

I agree to a point, but we can't ignore the variables at play.

Melbourne have a once on a generation midfield trifecta with Gawn, Petracca and Oliver. They just played out of their skin. Petracca for me is the best player in the game currently.
Coaching? What are we doing to fix this strategically it can't be all effort based; granted from what you learned gents are saying it's a big part.

I'm loathe to be putting the boots into a group I believe is the best across any line the Dogs have had.

I guess my point is, if the effort is conditional what can we do to change that? How do we absorb those down moments better? Can we?
They were all conditional and one-way up to and including the 2020 season. They changed their mindset and they changed it big time.

[DOG GOD]

I agree to a point, but we can't ignore the variables at play.

Melbourne have a once on a generation midfield trifecta with Gawn, Petracca and Oliver. They just played out of their skin. Petracca for me is the best player in the game currently.
Coaching? What are we doing to fix this strategically it can't be all effort based; granted from what you learned gents are saying it's a big part.

I'm loathe to be putting the boots into a group I believe is the best across any line the Dogs have had.

I guess my point is, if the effort is conditional what can we do to change that? How do we absorb those down moments better? Can we?

If we have players who continually refuse to do the basics of a team game, then drop them. No matter who they are.
Let’s see how serious we are. If you want sustained success you have to play as a team, and you need 22 committed blokes to do that, to be there, play their role no matter what or where it is seen fit.

[Grantysghost]

They were all conditional and one-way up to and including the 2020 season. They changed their mindset and they changed it big time.

Ah so was that a player driven thing, better coaching (Yze) or a bit of both.

I guess the latter.

[G-Mo77]

How would we ever know how long he's contracted for?

Would be legit worthwhile if one of us started a thread detailing the contract status of all listed players.

OK I made a mistake, no need to act like dicks about it.

[jeemak]

Ah so was that a player driven thing, better coaching (Yze) or a bit of both.

I guess the latter.

Most of the really good teams that have sustained success talk about player driven standards. Brisbane, Geelong, Hawthorn and Richmond teams all talk about how committed their playing groups were to working for each other and how the players drove the mindset.

We never hear that about the Dogs.

[jeemak]

OK I made a mistake, no need to act like dicks about it.

We're teasing Axe about it, not you.

I couldn't care less if you get a player's contract length wrong.

[Sedat]

Ah so was that a player driven thing, better coaching (Yze) or a bit of both.

I guess the latter.
Bit of both I reckon. Choco Williams was a huge part of it apparently.

[DOG GOD]

Bit of both I reckon. Choco Williams was a huge part of it apparently.
No surprise there. Choco always has that look about him that you wouldn’t wanna say “no I’m not doing that”.

[Axe Man]

Petracca for me is the best player in the game currently.

I don't think he's even the best player in his team, Oliver has him covered at the moment. Petracca could be, but he still doesn't do it often enough.

[Grantysghost]

I don't think he's even the best player in his team, Oliver has him covered at the moment. Petracca could be, but he still doesn't do it often enough.

Oliver is more consistent for sure, but if I had to choose : Petracca for me.

He's like Dusty, some of the stuff he can do not many others can.

[bornadog]

I don't think he's even the best player in his team, Oliver has him covered at the moment. Petracca could be, but he still doesn't do it often enough.

agree needs to be more consistent

[DOG GOD]

Oliver is more consistent for sure, but if I had to choose : Petracca for me.

He's like Dusty, some of the stuff he can do not many others can.

Same. Petracca is a multiple goal kicker…way more dangerous.

[EasternWest]

As I have said previously, no we didn't.

There's no way you can know this.

[EasternWest]

Truth bombs everywhere.

Our very best players cost us a premiership last year. It is hard to write but it is undeniable. We basically lost a premiership because of 7 minutes of complete and utter madness from our leaders and best players in the middle - yes I know those same players got us into the position to win one in the first place (it's complicated). That 7 minutes was a distillation of the same problems that we haven't been able to overcome since our premiership. We are conditional. We don't strive for the collective greater good. And we haven't changed this in 2022.

Nailed it.


OK I made a mistake, no need to act like dicks about it.

Don't take it personally G, they're all dicks except for you and me.

[Grantysghost]

Same. Petracca is a multiple goal kicker…way more dangerous.

Makes you wonder why people fall over themselves for the number 1 pick doesn't it.

Most of the top 10 picks will be rolled gold these days.

Oliver 4
Petracca 2 (Saints went McCartin 1 now they don't have him and he's good again !)
Bont 4
Parish 5
Brayshaw Freo (2)
Brayshaw Demons (3)
Macrae 6
Bazlenka 7
Lachie Neale 58!
Touk Miller 29 !
Cripps 13
Naughton 9
Rozee 5

I could go on for ever.

Sam Walsh clearly a good #1 and there are some other historical examples Hodge, Reiwoldt, Weitering to name a few but all in all it's not worth getting that excited about!

Anyway /threadderail

What a fall from grace we've had.

[Bulldog4life]

The Sydney game led directly to this article.

Nothing it mentioned - Young, Bruce, Assistants, Defending or 'Absences' had a single thing to do with last week's performance and is a complete cop-out.

Not having a week-in, week-out commitment to play with effort has been an issue for this group of players going back to 2018. Every year we dish up really poor performances against teams in the lower echelons of the ladder and show that whilst we can be hard to play against, when we get it 'wrong' it goes really wrong.

Last week? Blame the backs all you like but the lack of effort from English, Bont, Macrae and Dunks was the reason for the loss. Warner - a second year player who cannot kick - was the best mid on the ground in the first half because he:
1/. Is determined to be first to the ball.
2/. Gets lower and harder than everyone else.
3/. Treats transition running - back and forward - as an opportunity to impact the game rather than something you do when you have too.

The Swans - led by Warner - smashed us. To me, articles like this - whilst they aren't wrong - paper over the cracks of what the REAL issue is.

Jackson Macrae is an amazing footballer and the single best ball winner I have ever seen. But when the hosts of an AFL Fantasy podcast make ongoing jokes about his 'head tilt' and poor body language anytime he lines up away from his preferred position, well, that's a problem. It happens so often that they joke about it? It's not good enough.

I have said it before but I sincerely wonder sometimes whether we have a group of players to whom playing 'WELL' (individually) is more important than winning games of footy. I get shouted down and criticised every time I say that, but watch the first quarter of last week's game again and tell me I'm wrong. Tell me that aside from Liber, West and Naughton that we are a team with positive body language desperate to win the footy and work for one another.

Our game-day effort remains conditional. I will say this forever and reiterate that what happened in the second half of the GF can be laid squarely at the feet of our best players - Melbourne KILLED us out of the middle and no-one was prepared to:
1/. Make a stand
2/. Sacrifice their game
3/. Lead their team-mates

I started a thread saying it's a hard team to love - it is. We have some brilliant players but our effort is conditional. Should Bevo have moved Treloar and Hannan to the back half? Well, maybe not. But Treloar was OK back there and has a lot of attributes that could see him be really effective in that role...those things didn't cost us the game. English refusing to make body contact in ruck contests vs Ladhams was really poor. Warner setting the standard for winning the ball was really poor (by us).

Blame the club for not holding Hansen to his contract and allowing Young to go to Carlton if you like - those things are convenient after all - but our BEST PLAYERS (Bont, Macrae, Dunks and English) had their butts handed to them and that is why we lost.

After I heard that once...and I personally wouldn't waste my time on a AFL fantasy podcast....I wouldn't listen to it again.

[Topdog]

I agree to a point, but we can't ignore the variables at play.

Melbourne have a once in a generation midfield trifecta with Gawn, Petracca and Oliver. They just played out of their skin. Petracca for me is the best player in the game currently.

They may be fantastic but to lose by 10 goals in under a qtr of play is still a disgrace. 15 goals in 1.5 qtrs.

Dont really care how generational they are (and I submit they arent) you dont get beaten by those margins if your players sacrifice themselves.