LOL Aints

[jazzadogs]

Sacked Brett Ratten a month after giving him a new two year deal.

If Brendan Lade leaves to be their head coach I'll spew up.

From Cal Twomey AFL.com

BRETT Ratten is set to depart as St Kilda coach.

AFL.com.au understands the Saints are set to part ways with Ratten, having gone through a recent review of the club's football operations.

It comes just months after he signed a two-year extension with the Saints in July through to the end of 2024.

Ratten had been St Kilda coach for three full seasons since taking over from Alan Richardson, steering the club into the finals in 2020 but missing the top eight in the following two years.

It follows a quiet Continental Tyres AFL Trade Period for the club, which just missed out in its pursuit of Collingwood free agent Jordan De Goey.

Ratten was in his second stint as a senior coach, having led Carlton from 2007-12 before he was cut by the Blues, where he was a champion midfielder.

[Grantysghost]

Buy a vowel and get Rutten.

[jeemak]

That's shit treatment, so unless there's more to it I reckon there's going to be a pretty substantial backlash against them.

[GVGjr]

That's shit treatment, so unless there's more to it I reckon there's going to be a pretty substantial backlash against them.

It's going to be a big payout.

[macca]

Sounds like Carlton all over again
Rattens last year he took them into the finals with a prettt ordinary and ageing list

Deja vu with the saints

Can we pick him upnas an assistant please ?

[G-Mo77]

Amazing, after just signing him for 2 years? Wow. It might explain why they lay pretty dormant during the trade period.

Yze a big chance to go there now.

[boydogs]

He seemed really frustrated late in the year. Had a great start then couldn’t seem to bring the players along for the ride. Was enough there to sign him again but also red flags that it might have gone off the rails

[SlimPickens]

Would they make a play for Bevo?

[dog town]

If you have someone who can coach out support around them to cover any gaps. Ratten can coach in my view, more and more it looks like the clubs with the best off field support and set up will prosper.

[azabob]

FMD, Mark Stevens on radio has just raised Luke Beverage as an option and is view as "gettable"

Honestly....

[GVGjr]

Would they make a play for Bevo?

With a year to go on his contract it might be hard to get us to release him but maybe not impossible.

[Happy Days]

FMD, Mark Stevens on radio has just raised Luke Beverage as an option and is view as "gettable"

Honestly....

I think this is Stevo projecting. Don’t think he’s a Bevo guy.

[GVGjr]

I think this is Stevo projecting. Don’t think he’s a Bevo guy.

I've never noticed that but the Saints have to make a play for him.
With a year to go on Bevo's contract unless we are looking to make a change it shouldn't amount to anything.

[Grantysghost]

I've never noticed that but the Saints have to make a play for him.
With a year to go on Bevo's contract unless we are looking to make a change it shouldn't amount to anything.
The way he espouses love and loyalty I can’t see him ever leaving without being told to.

[Mofra]

98 days between Ratten signed the extension and getting sacked.
Walsh sacks coaches, and the review being led by a sacked coach (Noble) just makes this whole scenario seem ridiculous.

Yze would have to be close to getting this gig, surely.

[GVGjr]

98 days between Ratten signed the extension and getting sacked.
Walsh sacks coaches, and the review being led by a sacked coach (Noble) just makes this whole scenario seem ridiculous.

Yze would have to be close to getting this gig, surely.

Isn't there just a small question mark if any of the Hawthorn stain lands on Yze?
He must have been runner up with at least two other clubs now.

[bornadog]

98 days between Ratten signed the extension and getting sacked.
Walsh sacks coaches, and the review being led by a sacked coach (Noble) just makes this whole scenario seem ridiculous.

Yze would have to be close to getting this gig, surely.

Walsh reviewed North and Noble was out, and then Noble reviewed Saints and Walsh in? What is going on

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Speaking of reviews, where is our one at?

[jazzadogs]

Ross Lyon being canvassed for the job, according to the Age.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Ross Lyon being canvassed for the job, according to the Age.

That'd be hilarious

[Bulldog Revolution]

Ratten may have flaws as a coach, but I've generally thought he maximises his playing groups and seems like quite a good coach, but hes only had moderate groups

At the Blues he got the best footy out of Yarran, Garlett, Robinson etc, even Fev - he had those teams as competitive as they've been since

At the Saints its been the playing list and recruiting. Id be asking:
Who thought Hanneberry was a good idea on that money?
Who thought Hill was a good idea on that money?

And then possibly:
Who thought Jones was a good idea on that money?
Who thought Crouch was a good idea on that money?

Who is taking our picks? and what are we doing developmentally?

Coffield, Clark, McKenzie and others havent perhaps come on the way they might have hoped.

[EasternWest]

Walsh reviewed North and Noble was out, and then Noble reviewed Saints and Walsh in? What is going on

Any time you forget how much of a ridiculous boys club football bureaucracy is come back to this statement.

[jazzadogs]

That'd be hilarious

Hird-esque. Although at least Lyon got results.

[Bulldog4life]

Would they make a play for Bevo?

No doubt. At least a phone call.

[bornadog]

Speaking of reviews, where is our one at?

Pretty sure it is an internal review. The President mentioned it in her speech at B&F

[GVGjr]

No doubt. At least a phone call.

They'll do more than that.

He could easily be offered a 5 year deal to coach them and I don't think we could match it.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Saints really aren't too dissimilar to Essendon.

As much as we hear about how much of a professional environment the AFL has become, it's evident there's still a boys club mentality because some of the decision making (and the processes PUT into place to make these decisions) is diabolical.

[Sedat]

Lethers just got promoted to CEO after being the architect of their failed trade and list management strategy the last few years as Head of Footy Dept, particularly with the disastrous pursuit of Hannebury and Hill.

He keeps failing up while the coach gets it in the neck.

[angelopetraglia]

Lethers just got promoted to CEO after being the architect of their failed trade and list management strategy the last few years as Head of Footy Dept, particularly with the disastrous pursuit of Hannebury and Hill.

He keeps failing up while the coach gets it in the neck.

100%

[The Doctor]

Ratten may have flaws as a coach, but I've generally thought he maximises his playing groups and seems like quite a good coach, but hes only had moderate groups

At the Blues he got the best footy out of Yarran, Garlett, Robinson etc, even Fev - he had those teams as competitive as they've been since

At the Saints its been the playing list and recruiting. Id be asking:
Who thought Hanneberry was a good idea on that money?
Who thought Hill was a good idea on that money?

And then possibly:
Who thought Jones was a good idea on that money?
Who thought Crouch was a good idea on that money?

Who is taking our picks? and what are we doing developmentally?

Coffield, Clark, McKenzie and others havent perhaps come on the way they might have hoped.

Was it Lethlean? Think he has a bit to answer for. Former AFL golden boy.

[Bulldog4life]

They'll do more than that.

He could easily be offered a 5 year deal to coach them and I don't think we could match it.

Grant Thomas is a HUGE fan of Bevo. On SEN today he was saying bring Luke home. Loves him. He inferred that they must have someone teed up already.

[GVGjr]

Grant Thomas is a HUGE fan of Bevo. On SEN today he was saying bring Luke home. Loves him. He inferred that they must have someone teed up already.

I heard him as well. If the Saints put a 5 year deal in front of Bevo I don't think we could match it and given what he has done for us it would be hard to stand in his way. I'd still back Bevo to stick with us.

[The Doctor]

They'll do more than that.

He could easily be offered a 5 year deal to coach them and I don't think we could match it.

Could or would?

Of course we could match it. We are in much better financial shape than The Aints. They also now have a massive pay out for a newly re-signed coach.

It's whether we would which would be an interesting scenario. I expect the club would stick by Bevo and at least hold him to his contract.

[GVGjr]

Could or would?

Of course we could match it. We are in much better financial shape than The Aints. They also now have a massive pay out for a newly re-signed coach.

It's whether we would which would be an interesting scenario. I expect the club would stick by Bevo and at least hold him to his contract.

I'm not coming at this from a financial position. We are more than solid. At best Bevo gets a 2 or 3 year extension and I couldn't see us matching 5 years because our form, consistency and some issues within the paying group have raised some questions.
If he wants to stay he gets that 2 or 3 year deal. Very straight forward.
How hard we are prepared to fight and hold him if he wanted us to match 5 year offer I'm not so sure about.

[bornadog]

Talking about financial position, Saints are in a mess with the highest debt of any club at $10 million. They did well to reduce the debt by $4 million, but are still well behind.

[jazzadogs]

Why would Bevo trust a 5 year deal from the Saints? They just re-signed Ratten to two years and look how that turned out!

I don't think any coach should ever be signed to a 5 year deal.

[Rocco Jones]

Why would Bevo trust a 5 year deal from the Saints? They just re-signed Ratten to two years and look how that turned out!

I don't think any coach should ever be signed to a 5 year deal.

I agree but it would be financial security, if not being in a job security.

Love, hate or in between Bevo, I think he is built a bit differently and that financial/job security less important than most.

[kruder]

Grant Thomas actually said on SEN this morning that Bevo should be approached, he rates him highly.

[jazzadogs]

I agree but it would be financial security, if not being in a job security.

Love, hate or in between Bevo, I think he is built a bit differently and that financial/job security less important than most.

I agree. I think Bevo is a bulldog man now, and will only leave when pushed.

Article on the age website details how this idea seemed to be solidified on Lindsay Fox's multi million dollar week-long birthday yacht cruise, and that higher ups at St Kilda are keen to get Ross Lyon back. It's like Essendon but even worse!

[Dry Rot]

Bevo is a coach not a player, and is under contract in 2023.

Hypothetically how does he move to the Saints* without our agreement to release him from his contract?





* I made a typo typing "Saints" and autocorrect turned that into "Santa"

What do they know?

[GVGjr]

Bevo is a coach not a player, and is under contract in 2023.

Hypothetically how does he move to the Saints* without our agreement to release him from his contract?





* I made a typo typing "Saints" and autocorrect turned that into "Santa"

What do they know?

He doesn't move without our agreement but if there was an offer made that gave him a long term security that we decided we didn't want to match would we really stand in his way given what he's achieved for us?

[EasternWest]

He doesn't move without our agreement but if there was an offer made that gave him a long term security that we decided we didn't want to match would we really stand in his way given what he's achieved for us?

Wait are we talking about Beveridge or Dunkley?

[Bulldog4life]

In 149 years Saints have only 1 coach that coached longer than 6 years. Allan Jeans.

[Twodogs]

On the news tonight Rory Lobb pretty much said he wanted to come to the Bulldogs because he met with Bevo and Bevo sold him on the idea. I don't reckon Bevo is the sort of person to make promises to someone and then leave them in the lurch a week later.

Besides he knows that a five year contract isn't worth the paper it's written on, especially one from St Kilda.

[macca]

I doubt Bevo would move to Saints regardless whaT they offer. BEVO has the board, in an org with good management and admin, a great workplace already established with strong relationships vs toxic place like the saints . Why would he move ?

His taken is to 2 GF with 1 flag, thats in top echelon of coaches

I be very very disappointed if he leaves . He seems a good culture builder and wants to create legacy.

[The bulldog tragician]

I doubt Bevo would move to Saints regardless whaT they offer. BEVO has the board, in an org with good management and admin, a grrst place 5k work vs toxic place od the saints . Why would he move ?

His taken is to 2 GF with 1 flag, thats in top echelon of coaches

I be very very disappointed if he lives. He seems a good culture builder and wants to create legacy.

This seems harsh :)

[Mitcha]

Saints have little choice other than to go down the path of a first time senior coach. For a club that survives on massive AFL handouts and reportedly still ten million dollars in debt the AFEL surely would not look too kindly on big dollar offers to Lyon, Cameron or Bevo when the Saints already have two years of payment now owing to Ratten. Yze has to be favourite (and a bit cheaper).

[macca]

This seems harsh :)
Great pickup
My typing gets worst with auto correct activated nowadays

I have made the amendment
Thanks bt

[bornadog]

Saints have little choice other than to go down the path of a first time senior coach. For a club that survives on massive AFL handouts and reportedly still ten million dollars in debt the AFEL surely would not look too kindly on big dollar offers to Lyon, Cameron or Bevo when the Saints already have two years of payment now owing to Ratten. Yze has to be favourite (and a bit cheaper).

According to The Age, the payout may only be 6 months, due to a clause in his contract

[macca]

Saints have little choice other than to go down the path of a first time senior coach. For a club that survives on massive AFL handouts and reportedly still ten million dollars in debt the AFEL surely would not look too kindly on big dollar offers to Lyon, Cameron or Bevo when the Saints already have two years of payment now owing to Ratten. Yze has to be favourite (and a bit cheaper).

I would love it if LYon gets appointed , it would be full circle irony

The whole Carlton debacle where he did not want to go through the process but was semi-interested in the job became a side show

[bornadog]

I would love it if LYon gets appointed , it would be full circle irony

The whole Carlton debacle where he did not want to go through the process but was semi-interested in the job became a side show

Do you mean Essendon?

[Twodogs]

According to The Age, the payout may only be 6 months, due to a clause in his contract

I think that may be an AFL imposed rule in all soft cap situations. I'm sure I read somewhere that after Hawthorn had to pay Clarkson a year's salary to sit on the couch they bought in a rule that a senior coach only gets six months of his contract payed out no matter how long he has left.

[bornadog]

I think that may be an AFL imposed rule in all soft cap situations. I'm sure I read somewhere that after Hawthorn had to pay Clarkson a year's salary to sit on the couch they bought in a rule that a senior coach only gets six months of his contract payed out no matter how long he has left.

Yes I think you are right

[macca]

I think that may be an AFL imposed rule in all soft cap situations. I'm sure I read somewhere that after Hawthorn had to pay Clarkson a year's salary to sit on the couch they bought in a rule that a senior coach only gets six months of his contract payed out no matter how long he has left.

Twodogs your memory is amazing

Is this now known as the Bench Clarkson rule ?

[Twodogs]

Twodogs your memory is amazing

Is this now known as the Bench Clarkson rule ?
Sounds like a good name to me

[GVGjr]

According to The Age, the payout may only be 6 months, due to a clause in his contract

That is an appalling outcome after signing a 2 year deal. While understanding he would have signed off on that when he agreed to the contract at the very least he should get a 12 month payout.
It's hard to understand why the Saints appear to have jumped back on to the Ryan Lyon bandwagon given the way he left them to go to Fremantle.
There has to be a to more to this than what they have shared so far.

[1eyedog]

Wasn't Ratten at Hawthorn during the Pagan / Clarkson era? Is there a chance Ratten's name has come up in the AFL investigation?

Perhaps the Saints have been tipped off. Maybe clutching at straws but I can't explain why he would be sacked so suddenly.

[GVGjr]

Wasn't Ratten at Hawthorn during the Pagan / Clarkson era? Is there a chance Ratten's name has come up in the AFL investigation?

Perhaps the Saints have been tipped off. Maybe clutching at straws but I can't explain why he would be sacked so suddenly.

It's one of the reasons being speculated on but you would have to wonder why the Saints have jumped earlier than North or Brisbane have?

Seems to have been a more internal reason than anything else.

[Scorlibo]

I think that may be an AFL imposed rule in all soft cap situations. I'm sure I read somewhere that after Hawthorn had to pay Clarkson a year's salary to sit on the couch they bought in a rule that a senior coach only gets six months of his contract payed out no matter how long he has left.

How ridiculous is that. The Clubs get the full term of the contract as security while the individuals only ever get 6 months.

[hujsh]

How ridiculous is that. The Clubs get the full term of the contract as security while the individuals only ever get 6 months.

I think a more responsible change would be that clubs still have to pay out the remainder of the coach's contract but only 6 months count towards the soft cap. Gives the coaches financial security without ruining the clubs off field cap if that coach needs to be let go.

[Twodogs]

How ridiculous is that. The Clubs get the full term of the contract as security while the individuals only ever get 6 months.

Yeah. I'm a bit lost as to why contracts in AFL world bear no real resemblance to contracts in the real world. I don't understand why if your contract stipulates a certain time period and you don't stand down of your own accord why the other party (the club) get out of their side of the contract.

There must be some sort of AFL contract that you sign as well as the club contract.

[mjp]

How ridiculous is that. The Clubs get the full term of the contract as security while the individuals only ever get 6 months.

Well...don't sign the contract if you don't like the clause.

I am happy to bash the Saints but if Ratten signed a contract that has only a 6-month exit payout, well, he must have been happy with that.

[Topdog]

Well...don't sign the contract if you don't like the clause.

I am happy to bash the Saints but if Ratten signed a contract that has only a 6-month exit payout, well, he must have been happy with that.

Its an AFL wide clause, coaches cant get around it (apparently)

[GVGjr]

Well...don't sign the contract if you don't like the clause.

I am happy to bash the Saints but if Ratten signed a contract that has only a 6-month exit payout, well, he must have been happy with that.

I get what you are saying but after a strong start to the season and the contract extension mid season I think any reasonable person would suggest that was very unlikely to have been enacted on so early.
Not sure he had much of a choice either because apparently it's a rule if the AFL is funding a club like they are the Saints it's on their insistence that the 6 month rule applies.
He signed in good faith and it appears the Saints and the AFL are taking advantage of the loophole which I suppose is fair enough but in some ways it doesn't respect the coach.
It's a tough old business.

[azabob]

If it is an AFL ruling it is total horse sh*t and the coaches association should not stand for it.

Why should Brett Ratten be punished because of St.Kilda's poor management?

[bornadog]

Its an AFL wide clause, coaches cant get around it (apparently)

The only way they can get around it if it breached employment law. No contract is above the law.

[Stevo]

If it is an AFL ruling it is total horse sh*t and the coaches association should not stand for it.

Why should Brett Ratten be punished because of St.Kilda's poor management?

Good call.
He didn't get the chance to put his name forward for North, GWS or Essendon roles in fact he didn't get his chance to apply for assistant coaching roles all because the Saints gave him assurances they were supporting him but then changed their minds.
Unless there is a compelling reason for his sacking he should receive closer to a 12 month payout.
I wonder if he will end up with Clarko at North?

[Bulldog4life]

Grant Thomas pushing the Bevo come home button again.


Grant Thomas
@Thomo_Grant
They all come home eventually……Bevo too

[GVGjr]

Grant Thomas pushing the Bevo come home button again.


Grant Thomas
@Thomo_Grant
They all come home eventually……Bevo too

The media and a lot of the fans really want Lyon. I wonder if that will sway the Saints interview approach because I don't think Lyon wants to go into a head to head battle unless he is 90% confident of a win.

[Bulldog4life]

The media and a lot of the fans really want Lyon. I wonder if that will sway the Saints interview approach because I don't think Lyon wants to go into a head to head battle unless he is 90% confident of a win.

Interesting times ahead. It didn't end well the first time Ross was Boss.

[comrade]

Grant Thomas pushing the Bevo come home button again.


Grant Thomas
@Thomo_Grant
They all come home eventually……Bevo too

*!*!*!*! off GT, Bevo is home.

[Twodogs]

*!*!*!*! off GT, Bevo is home.

Yeah, what's with this "Bevo's home is St Kilda" bullshit?

His first club was Melbourne. Yes his dad worked at St Kilda but who cares? He isn't Bevo. If you want to count that then his grandfather Jack Beveridge played in 4 Collingwood premierships and was a member of The 1927-1930 Machine. St Kilda was the third club he played with. He played finals with Melbourne and Footscray. Coached us to a flag.

Spiritual home my arse.

[bornadog]

Tom Browne (yeah I know ), says Lyon has the job after Lyon had a third meeting, this time with the Board

[bulldogtragic]

Tom Browne (yeah I know ), says Lyon has the job after Lyon had a third meeting, this time with the Board

So Bevo’s returning home to St Kilda to replace Brendan Lade?

[GVGjr]

So Bevo’s returning home to St Kilda to replace Brendan Lade?

Well the Saints have acted quickly deciding not to go through a comprehensive interview process and appoint Lyon.
We are probably lucky that they didn't get Bevo in for a chat.

[bulldogtragic]

Well the Saints have acted quickly deciding not to go through a comprehensive interview process and appoint Lyon.
We are probably lucky that they didn't get Bevo in for a chat.

After the way Plough left, like Lyon did, I would never accept the club re-appointing him. I can’t believe they were left at the chapel in the wedding dress, while their groom was banging their sister and called the wedding off and left you with all the kids. Now they clutch to his memory of playing finals like a piece of broken glass by taking him back (ignoring the way he walked out and left them high and dry), because why, he’s a changed man?

His quitting took them from Grand Finals to a decade of abyss with rotating sacked coaches, that impacted their on field performance, which in turns impacts their marketability and being in $10M debt. He lit the fuse and now he’s the one pick up the pieces. Bullshit. Have some self respect Aints.

[GVGjr]

He's still probably a very good coach but you have to wonder if can adapt to a constantly changing AFL game.
I wonder if he will give Marc Webb a call because they did work together for a long time. I also wonder if Zac Dawson will come out of retirement.

[MrMahatma]

After the way Plough left, like Lyon did, I would never accept the club re-appointing him. I can’t believe they were left at the chapel in the wedding dress, while their groom was banging their sister and called the wedding off and left you with all the kids. Now they clutch to his memory of playing finals like a piece of broken glass by taking him back (ignoring the way he walked out and left them high and dry), because why, he’s a changed man?

His quitting took them from Grand Finals to a decade of abyss with rotating sacked coaches, that impacted their on field performance, which in turns impacts their marketability and being in $10M debt. He lit the fuse and now he’s the one pick up the pieces. Bullshit. Have some self respect Aints.

To be fair, it’s not his fault the coaches that followed him were busts.

[bulldogtragic]

To be fair, it’s not his fault the coaches that followed him were busts.

If Lyon was loyal to them, we’d never know. I rate loyalty. Aints, not so much it seems.

[Mofra]

His quitting took them from Grand Finals to a decade of abyss with rotating sacked coaches, that impacted their on field performance, which in turns impacts their marketability and being in $10M debt. He lit the fuse and now he’s the one pick up the pieces. Bullshit. Have some self respect Aints.
They cap was a mess though - they went all in for 2010 & 2011, came damn close, but kicked the cap can down the road for so long it took them years to get the cap back in order, and they had to lose Dal Santo, Ball & Goddard in the process.

Now they're back to square one after some draft busts - primarily, McCartin (over Petracca), Billings (over Bont), Coffield and Hunter Clark (over Naughton) and trading the farm for Brad Hill.

[Mofra]

If Lyon was loyal to them, we’d never know. I rate loyalty. Aints, not so much it seems.
The core of their list (Gresham & King aside) is traded in, not drafted. I don't think they'd have a leg to stand on if they preached loyalty.

[GVGjr]

They cap was a mess though - they went all in for 2010 & 2011, came damn close, but kicked the cap can down the road for so long it took them years to get the cap back in order, and they had to lose Dal Santo, Ball & Goddard in the process.

Now they're back to square one after some draft busts - primarily, McCartin (over Petracca), Billings (over Bont), Coffield and Hunter Clark (over Naughton) and trading the farm for Brad Hill.

They never quite press the levers at the right time and appear to be a club that isn't professional in enough areas of the footy department.

[comrade]

Their list is crap and weighted far too heavily towards players aged 27y+. They’ve tried to trade their way to a competitive list and it’s lead them on a path to mediocrity. The kids on their list are ok but nothing special. And now they have Zaine :D

I’m actually keen to see what Lyon can do with it because he doesn’t have anywhere near the quality he had access to his first go round at the Saints. At best they have some Dal Santo/Montagna level talent (Steele/Gresham etc) and one player with potential to ascend (King) but nothing like Roo, Goddard, Hayes, Tiprat.

My guess is they’ll get a bounce over the next few seasons but Lyon isn’t a coach for the long haul so they need success within the next 5 years. Do they have the players for it? Not for me.

They’ve taken the easy path imo and it won’t end well.

[Sedat]

They will cop a lot of heat and rightly so for the disgusting way they hung Ratten out to dry, but Lyon is a serious coach. I'm a bit dirty that they now have an above-average match-day coach.

[GVGjr]

They will cop a lot of heat and rightly so for the disgusting way they hung Ratten out to dry, but Lyon is a serious coach. I'm a bit dirty that they now have an above-average match-day coach.

I think a lot of their supporters think the 6 months payout is a poor reflection on how he was treated. Surely they could lift that by another 3 months.

As comrade pointed out Lyon doesn't quite have the same standard of list as he previously enjoyed there. It will be interesting to see how he goes but yes he's a quality coach.
I think they're also trying to poach Jason Cripps from Port to head up their list management.

[bornadog]

I think a lot of their supporters think the 6 months payout is a poor reflection on how he was treated. Surely they could lift that by another 3 months.

As comrade pointed out Lyon doesn't quite have the same standard of list as he previously enjoyed there. It will be interesting to see how he goes but yes he's a quality coach.
I think they're also trying to poach Jason Cripps from Port to head up their list management.

Goddard has also put his hand up to be an assistant. Not sure if that will happen

[Twodogs]

Their list is crap and weighted far too heavily towards players aged 27y+. They’ve tried to trade their way to a competitive list and it’s lead them on a path to mediocrity. The kids on their list are ok but nothing special. And now they have Zaine :D

I’m actually keen to see what Lyon can do with it because he doesn’t have anywhere near the quality he had access to his first go round at the Saints. At best they have some Dal Santo/Montagna level talent (Steele/Gresham etc) and one player with potential to ascend (King) but nothing like Roo, Goddard, Hayes, Tiprat.

My guess is they’ll get a bounce over the next few seasons but Lyon isn’t a coach for the long haul so they need success within the next 5 years. Do they have the players for it? Not for me.

They’ve taken the easy path imo and it won’t end well.

Ball.

[mjp]

Lyon is a brilliant coach.

I get what everyone is saying but this sucks for the rest of the competition. Ratten is a GOOD coach...Lyon is elite. He will get them winning games...

[GVGjr]

Lyon is a brilliant coach.

I get what everyone is saying but this sucks for the rest of the competition. Ratten is a GOOD coach...Lyon is elite. He will get them winning games...
After a number of years in the media, how long will it be before he lights up a lazy journo?

No question he is an excellent coach.

[KT31]

Grant Thomas pushing the Bevo come home button again.


Grant Thomas
@Thomo_Grant
They all come home eventually……Bevo too

Raphael Clarke may think different.

Over 200 games combined games as Coach and player with us, including a Flag and another Big Dance appearance.

Why would the Knob Thomas even suggest the Saints are his home?

[Topdog]

Ernie Merrick absolutely scathing in his assessment of the decision to sack Ratten.
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2022/10/19/i-was-so-disappointed-st-kilda-mentor-merrick-labels-ratten-sacking-as/

[comrade]

No doubts they’ll win a more games but it’s no where a balanced, premiership caliber list. He also doesn’t have peak Riewoldt or Fyfe at his disposal to build a game plan around. He’s blown up badly at two separate clubs, this feels like another attempt by the Saints to buy success. I hope they’ve got a rock solid contract in front of him.

[GVGjr]

Ernie Merrick absolutely scathing in his assessment of the decision to sack Ratten.
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2022/10/19/i-was-so-disappointed-st-kilda-mentor-merrick-labels-ratten-sacking-as/

I was listening to it earlier. Saints are all over the shop with how they go about fixing things.
That move to Seaford and then return to Moorabbin highlights how unprofessional they have been.

A good coach and an experienced list manager are positive steps though.

[bornadog]

I was listening to it earlier. Saints are all over the shop with how they go about fixing things.
That move to Seaford and then return to Moorabbin highlights how unprofessional they have been.

A good coach and an experienced list manager are positive steps though.

I went out there for a business meeting a few years ago. Boy is it far and in the middle of nowhere.

[Twodogs]

I was listening to it earlier. Saints are all over the shop with how they go about fixing things.
That move to Seaford and then return to Moorabbin highlights how unprofessional they have been.

A good coach and an experienced list manager are positive steps though.

At indoor soccer last night I was talking to a St Kilda supporter who had just read their history The Point of it All by Russell Holmesby. He said the thing he took away from reading it was St Kilda have always been a basket case and it's proven by the fact they have only ever won one premiership in 150+ years and a record number of wooden spoons not just in the VFL and the VFA

[jazzadogs]

I was listening to it earlier. Saints are all over the shop with how they go about fixing things.
That move to Seaford and then return to Moorabbin highlights how unprofessional they have been.

A good coach and an experienced list manager are positive steps though.

They've spent a lot of the last 5-10 years fixing the mess that was moving to Seaford. Coming back to Moorabbin cost them money, but it was the right decision.

[jeemak]

Whatever happens to us, we can never let people like Lethlean into our footy club.

Nothing personifies average more than an HQ reject private school old boy like he does.

[macca]

Lyon looks like he could get the gig
Love it they are looking backwards

Ernie’s has ripped into them
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/ernie-merrick-rips-into-st-kilda-football-club-over-demeaning-brett-ratten-sacking-20221020-p5brfq.html

[jeemak]

Lyon looks like he could get the gig
Love it they are looking backwards

Ernie’s has ripped into them
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/ernie-merrick-rips-into-st-kilda-football-club-over-demeaning-brett-ratten-sacking-20221020-p5brfq.html

I mean Earnfred in that article comes across as very cynical but as it goes on he makes more and more sense and is conciliatory which is something you don't see much of in media these days.

[Jasper]

Yeah, what's with this "Bevo's home is St Kilda" bullshit?

His first club was Melbourne. Yes his dad worked at St Kilda but who cares? He isn't Bevo. If you want to count that then his grandfather Jack Beveridge played in 4 Collingwood premierships and was a member of The 1927-1930 Machine. St Kilda was the third club he played with. He played finals with Melbourne and Footscray. Coached us to a flag.

Spiritual home my arse.

You can't blame Thomo for trying to get him across but with Lyon as good as in place now that isn't happening anytime soon.

[Jasper]

Whatever happens to us, we can never let people like Lethlean into our footy club.

Nothing personifies average more than an HQ reject private school old by like he does.

They have made so many symbolic gestures over the years and Lethlean was hailed as a big news story when it happened but like many other appointments and decision it hasnt amounted to anything for them.
The move to Seaford was more about being seen to be doing something than considering what the supporters wanted. When it failed they sold the story of moving back because the supporters wanted a return to the spiritual home. No wonder they are in debt.
I have to give a shout out to their members because they stick with them.

[Axe Man]

They have made so many symbolic gestures over the years and Lethlean was hailed as a big news story when it happened but like many other appointments and decision it hasnt amounted to anything for them.
The move to Seaford was more about being seen to be doing something than considering what the supporters wanted. When it failed they sold the story of moving back because the supporters wanted a return to the spiritual home. No wonder they are in debt.
I have to give a shout out to their members because they stick with them.

The Saints supporters I know just throw their hands up and laugh, they are so resigned to mediocrity at the moment.

[Mofra]

You can't blame Thomo for trying to get him across but with Lyon as good as in place now that isn't happening anytime soon.
Yep - odds-on frontrunner. Only other serious candidate is Yze (one sports administator's opinion anyway)

Say what you will about Lyon, but his ability to get bog-average defenders playing a system that makes it hard to score against them is as good as anyone. Zaine Cordy will love him. Getting perennial underperformers to the big dance (St Kilda and Freo) is no mean feat.

[bornadog]

Love this Tweet from Saints:

https://twitter.com/stkildafc/status/1582982147282915328

[Bulldog4life]

Love this Tweet from Saints:

https://twitter.com/stkildafc/status/1582982147282915328

Further down I loved the diver waltzing with the shark.

https://twitter.com/BornAKang/status/1582889998294339584

[Sedat]

They have made so many symbolic gestures over the years and Lethlean was hailed as a big news story when it happened but like many other appointments and decision it hasnt amounted to anything for them.
City Hall operates exactly like a mediocre, bloated, inefficient government beurocracy, and is the breeding ground for talentless people who would not last one day in real private enterprise. It should be no surprise whatsoever that Lethers is just the latest in the long line of talentless grifters that made their initial name at AFL HQ.

A simple rule of thumb for our HR dept is to never hire anyone with AFL HQ experience.

[hujsh]

City Hall operates like a mediocre, bloated, inefficient government beurocracy that it is, and develops similarly talentless people who would not last one day in the real private sector. It should be no surprise whatsoever that Lethers is just the latest in the long line of talentless grifters that made their name at AFL HQ.

laughs in private sector bloat

[Sedat]

laughs in private sector bloat
Agree 100% with regard to (notionally) private global corporations, they are absolutely no better and are as bloated as any govt organisation. Small/medium businesses and entrepreneurs are the real private sector I'm referring to.

[Twodogs]

You can't blame Thomo for trying to get him across but with Lyon as good as in place now that isn't happening anytime soon.

You're right. You can't blame them for conjuring up tenuous links to talented people in order to try and get them onboard. They have no real background of their own success to fall back on.

[Grantysghost]

City Hall operates exactly like a mediocre, bloated, inefficient government beurocracy, and is the breeding ground for talentless people who would not last one day in real private enterprise. It should be no surprise whatsoever that Lethers is just the latest in the long line of talentless grifters that made their initial name at AFL HQ.

A simple rule of thumb for our HR dept is to never hire anyone with AFL HQ experience.

Who hurt you Sedat? Give me their name...

I've only got a Subaru but I'm happy to sit out the front of their house and rev my engine.

[Twodogs]

Who hurt you Sedat? Give me their name...

I've only got a Subaru but I'm happy to sit out the front of their house and rev my engine.

Drop them off at the Yarraville nets and we'll get the crew together.

[Sedat]

Who hurt you Sedat? Give me their name...

I've only got a Subaru but I'm happy to sit out the front of their house and rev my engine.
Hehe - it is simply the benefit of my age observing, and knowing and understanding how the world really operates, and just how many grifters with minimal talent there are in positions of enormous power and influence. That is why I tune out of all that stuff and much prefer to dedicate my time and effort into family/friends/hobbies/passions.

[Grantysghost]

Hehe - it is simply the benefit of my age observing, and knowing and understanding how the world really operates, and just how many grifters with minimal talent there are in positions of enormous power and influence. That is why I tune out of all that stuff and much prefer to dedicate my time and effort into family/friends/hobbies/passions.

Ah yes fair enough.

I see my wonderful nieces and nephews in their teens loving life and want to protect them from what you've just described.
I choose the blue pill!

[SquirrelGrip]

I do find it ironic that Andrew Bassat founded SEEK but the Saints have the worst recruitment and people management in the league.

[Twodogs]

I do find it ironic that Andrew Bassat founded SEEK but the Saints have the worst recruitment and people management in the league.

That's Alanis Morissette levels of ironic.

[hujsh]

Agree 100% with regard to (notionally) private global corporations, they are absolutely no better and are as bloated as any govt organisation. Small/medium businesses and entrepreneurs are the real private sector I'm referring to.

ah, emphasis on the 'real' I suppose

[hujsh]

I do find it ironic that Andrew Bassat founded SEEK but the Saints have the worst recruitment and people management in the league.

TBH I'm not even sure if that's ironic or actually just appropriate

[mjp]

I do find it ironic that Andrew Bassat founded SEEK but the Saints have the worst recruitment and people management in the league.

I know you didn't mean it this way but I'm going to use it for my own ends.

A number of good people have been sucked in/spat out by the Saints (and by Essendon for that matter) in the last few years. You can add Gold Coast to the list if you like, Melbourne in the early 2010's etc.

The challenge - as always - is that one person is never enough to 'shift' an organisation (unless apparently that person is Peter Gordon). It's pretty hard for a coach like Richardson to get anywhere when there are leaks all over the rest of the ship. I am convinced that given the rigour of 'MOST' AFL coaching searches (set aside things like David Teague, Rhys Shaw and that sort of ridiculousness) they select the right person for the job...the problem is that the job they appoint them too isn't the job they think it is - it is far bigger and the available support in place is far less...

Add to that, the coach will bring in their 'own people' who have no knowledge of how to negotiate their way around the ins and outs of the club (unless they are political animals like Brad Scott of course) so they can't help either...you end up with a whole group of people who are trying to hold onto one another, but all of the struggling is dragging them deeper (and deeper) into the quicksand. Footy clubs are (mostly) groups of pretty well-meaning people who want success for the club...but unless there is synchronicity in where everyone is heading...

I'm no doubt talking way out of turn here, but the reputations of so many coaches - hard won reputations by the way - gets torn apart in an instant if they take a job at the wrong club at the wrong time.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I know you didn't mean it this way but I'm going to use it for my own ends.

A number of good people have been sucked in/spat out by the Saints (and by Essendon for that matter) in the last few years. You can add Gold Coast to the list if you like, Melbourne in the early 2010's etc.

The challenge - as always - is that one person is never enough to 'shift' an organisation (unless apparently that person is Peter Gordon). It's pretty hard for a coach like Richardson to get anywhere when there are leaks all over the rest of the ship. I am convinced that given the rigour of 'MOST' AFL coaching searches (set aside things like David Teague, Rhys Shaw and that sort of ridiculousness) they select the right person for the job...the problem is that the job they appoint them too isn't the job they think it is - it is far bigger and the available support in place is far less...

Add to that, the coach will bring in their 'own people' who have no knowledge of how to negotiate their way around the ins and outs of the club (unless they are political animals like Brad Scott of course) so they can't help either...you end up with a whole group of people who are trying to hold onto one another, but all of the struggling is dragging them deeper (and deeper) into the quicksand. Footy clubs are (mostly) groups of pretty well-meaning people who want success for the club...but unless there is synchronicity in where everyone is heading...

I'm no doubt talking way out of turn here, but the reputations of so many coaches - hard won reputations by the way - gets torn apart in an instant if they take a job at the wrong club at the wrong time.

And what do you make of situations where a coach pulls a big turnaround in a short amount of time ala Bevo after McCartney?

[bornadog]

And what do you make of situations where a coach pulls a big turnaround in a short amount of time ala Bevo after McCartney?

The structure was already there under Macca, it just that he wasn't a senior coach.

You may have noticed we didn't really change the assistant coaches in the first few years of Bevo. We lost Montgomery because he was too political, but most of the old Geelong boys stayed as did some of the others. The administration was also good, lead by Peter. So Bevo waltzed in and pulled the footy department together to create his team.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

The structure was already there under Macca, it just that he wasn't a senior coach.

You may have noticed we didn't really change the assistant coaches in the first few years of Bevo. We lost Montgomery because he was too political, but most of the old Geelong boys stayed as did some of the others. The administration was also good, lead by Peter. So Bevo waltzed in and pulled the footy department together to create his team.

So did we have a fairly steady club when Bevo took the reigns and in essence it was purely poor onfield performance and coaching when McCartney was in charge? I honestly can't remember.

[bornadog]

So did we have a fairly steady club when Bevo took the reigns and in essence it was purely poor onfield performance and coaching when McCartney was in charge? I honestly can't remember.

In my opinion yes. Ok we lost captain and coach, but everything else was in place.

[jeemak]

In my opinion yes. Ok we lost captain and coach, but everything else was in place.

We lost a couple of prima donna players as well, which didn't hurt.

[Dogs 24/7]

Drop them off at the Yarraville nets and we'll get the crew together.

Robert Walls as the referee?

[EasternWest]

City Hall operates exactly like a mediocre, bloated, inefficient government beurocracy, and is the breeding ground for talentless people who would not last one day in real private enterprise. It should be no surprise whatsoever that Lethers is just the latest in the long line of talentless grifters that made their initial name at AFL HQ.

A simple rule of thumb for our HR dept is to never hire anyone with AFL HQ experience.

There are few things I love more on this board than a solid Sedat rant.

I want them mainlined into my eyeballs.

[The Underdog]

There are few things I love more on this board than a solid Sedat rant.

I want them mainlined into my eyeballs.

Aside from the premise that mediocre people can’t thrive in private companies, he makes many good points.

[EasternWest]

Aside from the premise that mediocre people can’t thrive in private companies, he makes many good points.

Yeah it's been my experience mediocre people find a way to thrive in all environments.

[The Underdog]

Yeah it's been my experience mediocre people find a way to thrive in all environments.

I’ve worked in private enterprise and local government and done ok in both.

[Happy Days]

Yeah it's been my experience mediocre people find a way to thrive in all environments.

Woah look at that it’s me.

[Daughter of the West]

I was looking for something else entirely, but stumbled across this instead. Food for thought Aints...

https://freakonomics.com/2012/12/is-changing-the-coach-really-the-answer/


Essentially, coaches appear to receive similar training, face similar information sets, and ultimately make similar decisions. The results – perhaps not surprising when you consider these similarities – are that outcomes with different coaches are quite similar.

And that means, if it costs a small fortune to fire your coach – and often it does – then a team is probably better off just keeping who they have on the sideline. Yes, this may not make the fans of the losers very happy today. But it doesn’t make sense for universities to make decisions that cost the school money and don’t systematically change the outcomes we see on the field.

[EasternWest]

I’ve worked in private enterprise and local government and done ok in both.

Is some going to tell him? I don't want to be the one.

[EasternWest]

Woah look at that it’s me.

No you're beautiful. A shining star.

[hujsh]

Woah look at that it’s me.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/023/397/C-658VsXoAo3ovC.jpg

[The Underdog]

Is some going to tell him? I don't want to be the one.

Dare to be average, my friend, dare to be average.

[mjp]

I was looking for something else entirely, but stumbled across this instead. Food for thought Aints...

https://freakonomics.com/2012/12/is-changing-the-coach-really-the-answer/

So...this isn't wrong.

Most coaches are pretty competent at TEACHING one of two things:

1/. Skill fundamentals.
2/. Match day structures.

The game-style to tie the two together you will see a fair bit of variance in the way individuals going about the teaching process - some players flourish or flounder based on how they click with the game-style teaching of their coach...let's face it, trust is primarily built at training and if you can't do it on the track, well, you wont get the chance to do it in a game.

All of that said:
- Whether your focus is teaching skills/skill ex or structures, those coaches who 'make a difference' are those who are able to bring a unique element of play to their side. Easy examples right now are McRae's 'roll the dice' kick through the corridor attacking system that Collingwood used this season. Buckley is a good coach and got Collingwood within a goal of a premiership, HOWEVER McRae brought an attacking system AND won buy-in from the players...hey ho, let's go.

Lyon is one of those coaches. He has a pretty unique defensive system and the Saints just became really (really) hard to score against. Will they play exciting footy? Probs not. But they will keep the oppo to 8 goals, be in it every week and win more than they lose. The 'Stand' rule is going to cause him some issues - hell, the "back to the 9m" rule will cause him some issues, but he has a defensive plan and knows how to teach it. If you believe the stories, he taught the 05/06 Swans to defend as well so he's got a LOT of experience in doing it...they will be hard to score against which makes them immediately harder to beat.

[Jasper]

So...this isn't wrong.

Most coaches are pretty competent at TEACHING one of two things:

1/. Skill fundamentals.
2/. Match day structures.

The game-style to tie the two together you will see a fair bit of variance in the way individuals going about the teaching process - some players flourish or flounder based on how they click with the game-style teaching of their coach...let's face it, trust is primarily built at training and if you can't do it on the track, well, you wont get the chance to do it in a game.



Where does inspiring the team come into it? I would hope the coach rates 8/10 or 9/10 on both of the areas you have mentioned.
Lyon is a gun coach but he won't have the playing list he enjoyed at the Saints or Fremantle so he will need some more time.
He will make the Saints a harder to beat team.

[Grantysghost]

Has any coach that's been out the game this long come back to success in the AFL era?

You really have to question this decision. Nostalgia is a powerful drug and whilst you can't deny his defensive acumen the game on and off the field (the relationship with players) has moved exponentially of late and I'll be surprised if Ross has success.

That list is horrible too is a long term project.

It feels desperate.

[Jasper]

Has any coach that's been out the game this long come back to success in the AFL era?

You really have to question this decision. Nostalgia is a powerful drug and whilst you can't deny his defensive acumen the game on and off the field (the relationship with players) has moved exponentially of late and I'll be surprised if Ross has success.

That list is horrible too is a long term project.

It feels desperate.

How long was Joyce out of coaching before we brought him in to replace Wheels?

[Grantysghost]

How long was Joyce out of coaching before we brought him in to replace Wheels?

93 at Hawks 94 at Dogs.

He had two stints at the Hawks I think the first was when Alan Jeans was ill. I may be wrong vague memory.

Lethal between Pies and Lions maybe had a break.

Edit : 95 he ended at Pies 99 he started at Lions.
Lyon will be 19 to 23 the same.

[GVGjr]

What St Kilda will get from Ross Lyon in his second stint at the club (https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/what-role-did-eddie-mcguire-play-in-his-bestie-ross-lyons-return-to-coach-st-kilda/news-story/90df82b1913e4f8a773ee0237210966c)

https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/71dc0596ae7a34f88f8597ba2e202f45

Stand by for Ross Lyon 3.0 to be a warmer and fuzzier version.

The man who was renowned for his prickly press conferences and gruff demeanour will present a different outlook in his anticipated second coming at St Kilda which is good news for 3AW’s Shane McInnes.

Lyon and McInnes famously clashed when he was Fremantle coach after a final in Geelong back in 2013 where he quipped: “You’re quite brilliant, Shane, terrific.”

There has been a considerable warming of Lyon throughout his two years in the media where he became must-listen radio on Triple M’s Sunday Rub and a revelation on Channel 9’s Footy Classified.

“You‘re going to see a different version for sure,” one insider said.

While the hard edge will remain behind the scenes because that’s what St Kilda is buying again, they want him to shake the place up, fix the culture and make the football team relevant again.

But the two years in the media has certainly helped Lyon come out of his shell so to speak according to colleagues.
“You will see more of the real Ross and I think that’s what you saw with the Triple M Ross,” another observer said.

“He was a lot more open, more embracing of people and even cuddly.

“He is very funny Ross, the actual opposite to the hard edge disciplinarian the public saw at St Kilda and Fremantle. He’s actually very humorous, he really can light up the room.”


Lyon always joked he was a “part-timer” in the media and everyone who worked with him isn’t surprised he has gone back into coaching, although they were all aware of how bruised he was after the Carlton experience.

That ended up as a trainwreck after new Carlton president Luke Sayers virtually guarantee him the job following a four-hour meeting only to then have the board overturn his decision and go on to sign Michael Voss.

It made Lyon look silly and he retreated into his shell. Then when opportunities with Essendon and North Melbourne came up this year he politely declined to even engage, partly because he wasn’t a fan of both clubs and their proposed processes, and also the fact he was gun shy.

But St Kilda always held a special place in his heart.

He remained in contact with a lot of St Kilda people despite having done the dirty on them when he left abruptly at the end of 2011, not even telling his own manager about a multimillion-dollar deal he’d done with Fremantle.

As he said on Thursday after a third day of meetings with the Saints hierarchy: “I’m keen, like my heart’s been opened up.”

While Lyon also dabbled in commercial real estate when he returned home to Melbourne after he was sacked from Fremantle before the final round of the 2019 season, jumping into the media was his way of staying relevant.

For those who point to him being three years out of the game as a negative for a coach who was renowned for his tactical acumen, those who worked alongside him over the past two football seasons laugh that off.

“He has kept himself ready, no doubt about that,” a source inside the Lyon camp said.

“He’s on the phone constantly talking to people in footy all the time, he’s across all the trends.”

The timing of club great Lenny Hayes, who spent five years as an assistant coach at the GWS Giants, returning to the fold is also interesting given he’d only recently been spruiking to mates how much he was loving living in the Blue Mountains running beef cattle on a 100 acre farm.

With another of Lyon’s former players Jason Blake now on the Saints board and Justin Koschitzke also set to move back to the town in a role at the new Danny Frawley Centre, there is a sense of the old band being brought back together.

Geelong did that last year, bringing back a handful of favourite sons into the football operation and we saw what happened there.

The role of Eddie McGuire in the Lyon resurrection can’t be underestimated. The pair’s relationship blossomed on the Footy Classified set where they worked together on Wednesday nights.

McGuire helped Lyon get used to the world of television and they became “besties”, which puts weight to one conspiracy theory that the former Collingwood president had some fingerprints over the masterplan at St Kilda.

It was no coincidence that the timing of Ratten’s dismissal, just three months after he’d been handed a new two-year contract, came after St Kilda president Andrew Bassat had just returned from a luxury cruise from New York to Montreal to celebrate mad Saints’ fan and trucking magnate Lindsay Fox’s 85th birthday.

Another business heavyweight with a love for the Saints, Gerry Ryan, was also on the boat and you can imagine the sorry state of another wasted year at Moorabbin was discussed between the three.

While we know Eddie would never put his nose into another club’s business, we’re sure if he was asked for his opinion he may have offered some positive vibes about Lyon 3.0.

[GVGjr]

Like him, hate him whatever. This is a huge appointment by the Saints and if he can fix the culture and unite the club it won't matter if they don't have a great playing list.
I think he will take up Matthew Lloyd on his offer to work with Max King and his goal kicking.

[EasternWest]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/023/397/C-658VsXoAo3ovC.jpg

Good point well made.


Dare to be average, my friend, dare to be average.

I don't have to dare, it comes naturally.

[jeemak]

I can't believe commercial real estate wasn't enough to keep him relevant. I know a few people in the field and they'll tell you how relevant they are quick smart.

[macca]

Looks like Lyon going to start next week

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/final-hurdle-removed-in-saints-pursuit-of-lyon-20221018-p5bqlm.html

How does that saying go about insanity go ?

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Didnt Lyon leave the saints witth very little notice?

[macca]

The structure was already there under Macca, it just that he wasn't a senior coach.

You may have noticed we didn't really change the assistant coaches in the first few years of Bevo. We lost Montgomery because he was too political, but most of the old Geelong boys stayed as did some of the others. The administration was also good, lead by Peter. So Bevo waltzed in and pulled the footy department together to create his team.
I recall Bevo mentioned the defensive side of the game was already there.
In 2016 was an extraodinary year , we just jelled as a team and everyone stepped up and played out of their skins .
We had a fearsome fwd pressure line
Picken, smith , dalhaus, dickson and Cordy agreession and effasive knee
Boyd and Roughead playing dual position ruck
BOYD , Morris and easton wood in fine all australian form in the backline


Real depth with players who may have played barring bad luck with injury :
JONG, suckling , Prudden , even wallis. Sucklings long bomb goals kept us in a few games.All these players i wished they could have played more games for us

We won the vfl that year as well by a fair margin , smashing casey/melbourne in the final. I was there at the vfl Grand final and felt blessed to see such a good team

[jeemak]

Looks like Lyon going to start next week

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/final-hurdle-removed-in-saints-pursuit-of-lyon-20221018-p5bqlm.html

How does that saying go about insanity go ?

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Didnt Lyon leave the saints witth very little notice?

He did a deal outside of his management and blindsided the Saints, however, he did give one of the best and as far as I can tell most honest answers for doing so.

In his words he had investments that went tits up and put him back a long way, and saw signing with Freo as a way out of a financial mess. Now he probably didn't go about it the right way, but at least he didn't bullshit about it being for anything other than money.

There's something in that, even if he is a bit of a jerk who managers can't trust (which mightn't be a bad thing in itself).

I've heard a lot of stories about how much of a shit bloke he can be, but as MJP says, the guy can coach.

[Mofra]

Lethal between Pies and Lions maybe had a break.
Must. Not. Mention. COLA....

[Mofra]

Looks like Lyon going to start next week

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/final-hurdle-removed-in-saints-pursuit-of-lyon-20221018-p5bqlm.html

How does that saying go about insanity go ?

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Didnt Lyon leave the saints witth very little notice?
Are there any other options?
Yze seems to be the most lauded of untried coaches, but the Saints machine chews up and spits out coaches. It probably isn't the best environment for a first time coach, so Lyon does read like the best option they have.

[bornadog]

Ross Lyon now official

[GVGjr]

I don't doubt that he is an excellent coach but he shat all over them years ago using a loophole to move to Fremantle even bypassing his own management and now the Saints have rolled out the red carpet for him and in the process shat on Brett Ratten by short changing him on his payout.

I just heard that Robery Harvey is returning as the senior assistant. At least the Saints are getting their ducks in a row.

[Sedat]

I don't doubt that he is an excellent coach but he shat all over them years ago using a loophole to move to Fremantle even bypassing his own management and now the Saints have rolled out the red carpet for him and in the process shat on Brett Ratten by short changing him on his payout.

I just heard that Robery Harvey is returning as the senior assistant. At least the Saints are getting their ducks in a row.
Saints look like they are following the Geelong template and bringing St Kilda people back together, a process that ironcially started with Grant Thomas (after the Blighty debacle). Probably a good strategy for them to be able to sell it to the members, and more easily sold with an obviously sharp-minded experienced coach with a histiory of getting this club close to the summit and who clearly knows what he is doing in the box. The younger untried coach didn't work (Watters), the long CV experienced assistant coach didn't work (Richardson), the 2nd time senior coach didn't work (Ratten). Even with the nature of his exit last time, they honestly don't have much to lose.

[jeemak]

This article from James Rosewarne via Footyology doesn't miss:

https://footyology.com.au/delusional-st-kilda-and-ross-lyon-deserve-each-other/

Ross Lyon and the St Kilda ‘brains trust’ are eerily perfect for one another.

Both are delusional, Group 1 bullshit artists who’ve each fallen so far behind in the race they actually think they’re winning.

The article had me at that!

[jazzadogs]

St Kilda stuffing up this whole process, and Ross Lyon being a good coach for their club, are not mutually exclusive.

They should have just stuck with Ratten imo. But once they booted him, Lyon was the correct choice.

Does Lindsay Fox like him though, that's the important question ...

[Sedat]

This article from James Rosewarne via Footyology doesn't miss:

https://footyology.com.au/delusional-st-kilda-and-ross-lyon-deserve-each-other/

Ross Lyon and the St Kilda ‘brains trust’ are eerily perfect for one another.

Both are delusional, Group 1 bullshit artists who’ve each fallen so far behind in the race they actually think they’re winning.

The article had me at that!
Not sure who the hell this James Rosewarne is but he sounds like he's done one too many pre-seasons with RoCo, one of the most bitter, unhinged and unhappy people on social media.

He's welcome to his hot take but I couldn't disagree more with almost every aspect of it. Getting St Kilda and Freo to combined 4 GF's is no mean feat, considering they have won a combined 1 premiership in 154 completed seasons. These clear facts don't appear to support the narrative being framed (a bit of a common problem with modern journalism).

The Ratten sacking was appallingly handled (actually the re-appointment was the killer blow) but Lyon is clearly and obviously a better coach. He's not there to win a popularity contest, he's there to coach the lights out. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm dirty the Saints have him as they are now a better chance to become successful than they would have been under Ratts.

[Grantysghost]

This article from James Rosewarne via Footyology doesn't miss:

https://footyology.com.au/delusional-st-kilda-and-ross-lyon-deserve-each-other/

Ross Lyon and the St Kilda ‘brains trust’ are eerily perfect for one another.

Both are delusional, Group 1 bullshit artists who’ve each fallen so far behind in the race they actually think they’re winning.

The article had me at that!

This is my argument to a tee.

"When round one kicks off next season, Lyon won’t have coached an AFL team in three-and-a-half years, and in the last four seasons of trying to do that compiling a 29-58 record prior to being sacked. Those last four seasons as Fremantle coach resulted in offences that ranked 16th, 17th, 16th and 16th."

People get carried away with Lyon's record at the Saints but he had an incredible list to work with.
His best work was probably Freo early doors, but it all went south and I think his style and dour personality won't wash with the current generation.

Train wreck!

[hujsh]

That's probably the two biggest question marks on Lyon there isn't it. Can he build a list and is he still up to date with the latest coaching trends?

Also his record at Freo at the end being not great. Could we be seeing a Malthouse at Carlton type situation?

[Grantysghost]

Not sure who the hell this James Rosewarne is but he sounds like he's done one too many pre-seasons with RoCo, one of the most bitter, unhinged and unhappy people on social media.

He's welcome to his hot take but I couldn't disagree more with almost every aspect of it. Getting St Kilda and Freo to combined 4 GF's is no mean feat, considering they have won a combined 1 premiership in 154 completed seasons. These clear facts don't appear to support the narrative being framed (a bit of a common problem with modern journalism).

The Ratten sacking was appallingly handled (actually the re-appointment was the killer blow) but Lyon is clearly and obviously a better coach. He's not there to win a popularity contest, he's there to coach the lights out. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm dirty the Saints have him as they are now a better chance to become successful than they would have been under Ratts.

Wasn't it 3 x GFs?

[jazzadogs]

Wasn't it 3 x GFs?

3 years, 4 grand finals. 2009, 2010 x2, 2013.

[jeemak]

Not sure who the hell this James Rosewarne is but he sounds like he's done one too many pre-seasons with RoCo, one of the most bitter, unhinged and unhappy people on social media.

He's welcome to his hot take but I couldn't disagree more with almost every aspect of it. Getting St Kilda and Freo to combined 4 GF's is no mean feat, considering they have won a combined 1 premiership in 154 completed seasons. These clear facts don't appear to support the narrative being framed (a bit of a common problem with modern journalism).

The Ratten sacking was appallingly handled (actually the re-appointment was the killer blow) but Lyon is clearly and obviously a better coach. He's not there to win a popularity contest, he's there to coach the lights out. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm dirty the Saints have him as they are now a better chance to become successful than they would have been under Ratts.

Even the bits where he uses statistical evidence to back up his points? Or do you disagree that they didn't engage upon a governed process to secure his services?

Or is it the bit where he gives Lyon credit for making grand finals with both clubs, as he does here:

To Lyon’s credit, he was able to inject his trademark discipline and defensive structures into both outfits, taking both to grand finals. His work, particularly defensively, was undeniably immense even if neither team did get the chocolates, and even if both stints ended on sour notes.

I think the article is a little more balanced than you give it credit. I do agree with you that Lyon can clearly coach, but scoring hasn't been any of his team's stronger suits and it remains to be seen whether his style translates to the modern game.

As for Roco, he lets his frustrations come out on social media too much but to be fair social media is full of dickheads. To call him one of the most unhinged and bitter people on social media is an exaggeration, but I get you don't like him and hyperbole does make for good reading!

[bulldogsthru&thru]

3 years, 4 grand finals. 2009, 2010 x2, 2013.

Can't really call it 4 grand finals though. He got clubs to the last dance in 3 seasons. Unless we're saying Collingwood won 1 out of 2 grand finals in 2010.

[Grantysghost]

3 years, 4 grand finals. 2009, 2010 x2, 2013.

Ah right. Personally I count that as 3. Making a GF is a whole season affair.

[GVGjr]

That's probably the two biggest question marks on Lyon there isn't it. Can he build a list and is he still up to date with the latest coaching trends?

Also his record at Freo at the end being not great. Could we be seeing a Malthouse at Carlton type situation?

His history would say building a list might be his biggest challenge this time around. I would imagine the Saints will have something in place that has some selection integrity around developing younger players.
He has a bit to work with at the Saints but nothing like what he had previously at the Saints or Fremantle.

[macca]

3 years, 4 grand finals. 2009, 2010 x2, 2013.

Thats a pretty good achievement is it technically 3 GF + a draw ?

Yes, St Kilda and Freo probably had enough talent on that list to get there. Freo could have buried that GF if they had kicked straight in the first half.

Sounds like Lyon has a license to be ruthless and throw down the challenge to all the players at St Kilda to get the most out of themselves and start achieving something instead of being mediocre and being remembered for being that during their careers. Lets see how far it WARMS with some of these new age types. I expect a number of delistings and players being moved on next year. Love the melo drama that could unfold at St Kilda.

I wonder if Lyon could be good comparison to Malthouse in 2002-03. Malthouse did an outstanding effort to get Collingwood to 2 GF :
2002 - loss by 9 points to the Lions
2003 - GF again , loss to Lions by a fare margin.

My assessment was that he was an outstanding couch to get an average team with talent that was evenly distributed on across the list. He just had a lot of buy in from all the players and found a way to connect with them. I cannot recall that 2002-2003 Collingwood team having any outstanding players other than Buckley , but he did have a few characters in Swan and Didak at the time. The Rocca brothers were learning to use their big bodies, being taught by JArrod Malohy. they had a blue collar mid field in : O'Bree, Lockyer, Licuria and Swan. But had a good backline which were stingy. Prestigiacomo name comes to mind as one player that seemed to get recognize for his 4 posession games .

[mjp]

Where does inspiring the team come into it? I would hope the coach rates 8/10 or 9/10 on both of the areas you have mentioned.


I bet they don't.

I triple bet.

If you are trying to tell me that an experienced AFL senior coach is going to be an ace at pulling apart and rebuilding kicking technique, well, I've got news for you. They just don't do it...

If you are equally trying to tell me that they are in the weeds of teaching stoppage structure/building young players up so they are ready to contribute, well...they don't really do that either.

Most of them will have a solid grounding in ONE (skills - Dev coach pathway) or the other (structures - Assistant coach pathway) BUT they wouldn't have been doing much of it. That's why getting in good assistants who WANT to be assistants is so valuable - you get a resource who is ready to rock and is 'the man/woman with a plan'...talk about Collingwood getting Leppitsch this year as an example. I would say us getting Webb is a similar example but I'm not sure many would agree with me...

Inspiring a team? Meh, whatever. Building unity etc I'm with you but inspiration comes from within...yeah, the coach can prod or poke here or there but it is the players who decide (as a group) what is acceptable and what isn't.

[jeemak]

I bet they don't.

I triple bet.

If you are trying to tell me that an experienced AFL senior coach is going to be an ace at pulling apart and rebuilding kicking technique, well, I've got news for you. They just don't do it...

If you are equally trying to tell me that they are in the weeds of teaching stoppage structure/building young players up so they are ready to contribute, well...they don't really do that either.

Most of them will have a solid grounding in ONE (skills - Dev coach pathway) or the other (structures - Assistant coach pathway) BUT they wouldn't have been doing much of it. That's why getting in good assistants who WANT to be assistants is so valuable - you get a resource who is ready to rock and is 'the man/woman with a plan'...talk about Collingwood getting Leppitsch this year as an example. I would say us getting Webb is a similar example but I'm not sure many would agree with me...

Inspiring a team? Meh, whatever. Building unity etc I'm with you but inspiration comes from within...yeah, the coach can prod or poke here or there but it is the players who decide (as a group) what is acceptable and what isn't.

This is a point you hear players of both successful and unsuccessful teams each year talk about. Player driven standards are super important and it's an area that I don't think we've been great in this past year.

[Sedat]

Even the bits where he uses statistical evidence to back up his points? Or do you disagree that they didn't engage upon a governed process to secure his services?

Or is it the bit where he gives Lyon credit for making grand finals with both clubs, as he does here:

To Lyon’s credit, he was able to inject his trademark discipline and defensive structures into both outfits, taking both to grand finals. His work, particularly defensively, was undeniably immense even if neither team did get the chocolates, and even if both stints ended on sour notes.

I think the article is a little more balanced than you give it credit. I do agree with you that Lyon can clearly coach, but scoring hasn't been any of his team's stronger suits and it remains to be seen whether his style translates to the modern game.

As for Roco, he lets his frustrations come out on social media too much but to be fair social media is full of dickheads. To call him one of the most unhinged and bitter people on social media is an exaggeration, but I get you don't like him and hyperbole does make for good reading!

The bulk of the article is condescending, arrogantly written and mostly based on the personal feelings of the author against Lyon and the Saints directors. Fair enough, the directors have made a hash of the Ratten re-signing and sacking, but the decision to appoint Lyon is a bold approach - it doesn't guarantee success but it makes St Kilda a more dangerous opponent. There are small elements in the article grudgingly giving credit and stating the obvious about Lyon's record and obvious successes in the past.

RoCo is a hot mess. It's actually very sad to see a once excellent footy journalist lash out with vitriol and render himself unemployable in the industry due to his complete lack of tolerance and acceptance to even slightly differing opinions from his own personal viewpoint, and his acid tongue in dealing with people who dare challenge him. You're 100% right, there are many hideous anonymous people in the cesspit of social media, but someone with his profile should rise above that garbage instead of contributing more garbage to the discussion.

For mine, the article represents everything wrong with modern journalism - framing a preferred narrative based primarily on emotions over facts.

[bornadog]

Lyon has Lenny Hayes and Robert Harvey as assistants

[GVGjr]

Walsh, Lyon, Hayes, Robert Harvey and I think Goddard are more than handy ins for the Saints footy department and I hear Silvagni might be in the mix to join them as well.

Say what you like about them but they're going full bore to fix things.

[jeemak]

The bulk of the article is condescending, arrogantly written and mostly based on the personal feelings of the author against Lyon and the Saints directors. Fair enough, the directors have made a hash of the Ratren resigning and sacking, but the decision to appoint Lyon is a bold approach - it doesn't guarantee success but it makes St Kilda a more dangerous opponent. There are small elements in the article grudgingly giving credit and stating the obvious about Lyon's record and obvious successes in the past.

RoCo is a hot mess. It's actually very sad to see a once excellent footy journalist lash out with vitriol and render himself unemployable in the industry due to his complete lack of tolerance and acceptance to even slightly differing opinions from his own personal viewpoint, and his acid tongue in dealing with people who dare challenge him. You're 100% right, there are many hideous anonymous people in the cesspit of social media, but someone with his profile should rise above that garbage instead of contributing more garbage to the discussion.

For mine, the article represents everything wrong with modern journalism - framing a preferred narrative based primarily on emotions over facts.

I understand what you're saying, but it is an opinion piece.

The issue with not engaging a process is it smacks of an unprofessional organisation wanting to take on an easy enough fix to get their man. The article rightly points out that Lyon has turned down more jobs than he's actually been offered, or even spoken to formally about because he fears being exposed via a process, or feels too important to go through one. To me that's genuine alarm bells stuff, and irrespective if they're a bit more dangerous today than they were yesterday, it's hardly a meritorious and well governed cornerstone from which an organisation can launch a new era.

How will Lyon react under scrutiny if things don't go well, and what we as Doggies supporters continually call for our coach to be exposed to (even though he's actually won a flag) from a review perspective is called to investigate why? I know how he'll react, it won't be pretty and anyone can see that upfront.

So while the article comes across as condescending, it absolutely hits the mark outlining how much of a shit show the process to secure Lyon has been. Adding to that, Lyon's successes as a coach are between nine and thirteen years old. It boggles the mind someone like that had no competition for the role. It's ridiculous and bordering on insane that Lyon was hunted down and mollycoddled outside of the most rudimentary of processes by a bunch of those people you continually deride - and that's the key message of the article.

On Roco I actually agree with a lot of what you say. He needs to come out of the fox hole and end the siege. He's not Steven Seagal, Gary Busy isn't dancing around in drag, he needs to lighten up.

[Sedat]

I understand what you're saying, but it is an opinion piece.

The issue with not engaging a process is it smacks of an unprofessional organisation wanting to take on an easy enough fix to get their man. The article rightly points out that Lyon has turned down more jobs than he's actually been offered, or even spoken to formally about because he fears being exposed via a process, or feels too important to go through one. To me that's genuine alarm bells stuff, and irrespective if they're a bit more dangerous today than they were yesterday, it's hardly a meritorious and well governed cornerstone from which an organisation can launch a new era.

How will Lyon react under scrutiny if things don't go well, and what we as Doggies supporters continually call for our coach to be exposed to (even though he's actually won a flag) from a review perspective is called to investigate why? I know how he'll react, it won't be pretty and anyone can see that upfront.

So while the article comes across as condescending, it absolutely hits the mark outlining how much of a shit show the process to secure Lyon has been. Adding to that, Lyon's successes as a coach are between nine and thirteen years old. It boggles the mind someone like that had no competition for the role. It's ridiculous and bordering on insane that Lyon was hunted down and mollycoddled outside of the most rudimentary of processes by a bunch of those people you continually deride - and that's the key message of the article.

On Roco I actually agree with a lot of what you say. He needs to come out of the fox hole and end the siege. He's not Steven Seagal, Gary Busy isn't dancing around in drag, he needs to lighten up.
When we appointed Rocket, Smorgon and the board basically held him under siege in an interview room for hours on end until he finally accepted the role - there was no process whatsoever, and Rocket was nohing less than a resounding success for us even if we didn't quite scale the summit. When Damien Hardwick was vying for the Essendon coaching role through an arduous process at the time (with Matthew Knights as the other contender), his less than perfect PowerPoint presentation skills ultimately worked against him (as an aside, that faulty laptop is a true hero and a national treasure).

Sometimes a full-scale process gets the right coach and sometimes gut feel and instinct works just as well. This approach might blow up in their face but the full scale processes got them Watters, Richardson and Ratten. Conversely, the gut feel approach got them Grant Thomas (who was relentlessly bagged but he got the club back on track) and also Ross Lyon initially (he came from a mile back in the pecking order purely on the strength of Robert Walls recommendation). They are surrounding Lyon and going all-in on the cultural fabric "St Kilda" people. It's bold, no doubt about it. Time will tell if it is a success or a failure. If re-signing Ratten in haste was a mistake 3 months ago (it was), perhaps the club are making a brutal but brave call to not make the mistake of keeping him if their internal review has determined he is not the right man for the job. It would have been much easier treading water for another 12 months with Ratten.

[jeemak]

When we appointed Rocket, Smorgon and the board basically held him under siege in an interview room for hours on end until he finally accepted the role - there was no process whatsoever, and Rocket was nohing less than a resounding success for us even if we didn't quite scale the summit. When Damien Hardwick was vying for the Essendon coaching role through an arduous process at the time (with Matthew Knights as the other contender), his less than perfect PowerPoint presentation skills ultimately worked against him (as an aside, that faulty laptop is a true hero and a national treasure).

Sometimes a full-scale process gets the right coach and sometimes gut feel and instinct works just as well. This approach might blow up in their face but the full scale processes got them Watters, Richardson and Ratten. Conversely, the gut feel approach got them Grant Thomas (who was relentlessly bagged but he got the club back on track) and also Ross Lyon initially (he came from a mile back in the pecking order purely on the strength of Robert Walls recommendation). They are surrounding Lyon and going all-in on the cultural fabric "St Kilda" people. It's bold, no doubt about it. Time will tell if it is a success or a failure. If re-signing Ratten in haste was a mistake 3 months ago (it was), perhaps the club are making a brutal but brave call to not make the mistake of keeping him if their internal review has determined he is not the right man for the job. It would have been much easier treading water for another 12 months with Ratten.

Fair points, can live with all of them on their merits.

I guess I was arguing that incredulousness in response to what's transpired, even vitriol as portrayed in the article isn't unreasonable. Particularly given you've got a bunch of guys running the club who have saved themselves from a review, sacked a coach whilst the club is in serious debt, and haven't even considered the rudimentary safety net of a basic process as necessary in landing a coach who had his success 9-13 years ago. What you've talked about with Rocket, Knights and Hardwick, or anyone else, happened over a decade ago. The world has changed, administrations need to be accountable to people who fork out their hard earned and those who work for them.

All of your selected examples of having a punt can't be argued with, nor can those examples of following process backfiring. But we talk about the folly of amateurism within the AFL all the time around here, and I just can't see this as anything other than a modern era example of that very thing.

It's bold, but that doesn't mean that it's not mind boggling that such a poorly run club could ride roughshod over so many key decisions. If Lethlean and Gill weren't mates from their Old Boys footy days - let alone their AFL HQ days - this whole saga would have been ripped to shreds from all comers, and possibly not even allowed to happen in the first place due to AFL HQ interventionism taking hold.

[Sedat]

Fair points, can live with all of them on their merits.

I guess I was arguing that incredulousness in response to what's transpired, even vitriol as portrayed in the article isn't unreasonable. Particularly given you've got a bunch of guys running the club who have saved themselves from a review, sacked a coach whilst the club is in serious debt, and haven't even considered the rudimentary safety net of a basic process as necessary in landing a coach who had his success 9-13 years ago. What you've talked about with Rocket, Knights and Hardwick, or anyone else, happened over a decade ago. The world has changed, administrations need to be accountable to people who fork out their hard earned and those who work for them.

All of your selected examples of having a punt can't be argued with, nor can those examples of following process backfiring. But we talk about the folly of amateurism within the AFL all the time around here, and I just can't see this as anything other than a modern era example of that very thing.

It's bold, but that doesn't mean that it's not mind boggling that such a poorly run club could ride roughshod over so many key decisions. If Lethlean and Gill weren't mates from their Old Boys footy days - let alone their AFL HQ days - this whole saga would have been ripped to shreds from all comers, and possibly not even allowed to happen in the first place due to AFL HQ interventionism taking hold.
We are on a unity ticket there with regard to the incompetent old boys club. Lethers is a buffoon who keeps managing to fail up, and he should have been sacked before any decision was made on Ratten, let alone promoted FFS. Some of his list/contract decisions when footy boss have been mind-bogglingly stupid (as an aside, how does their list manager Gallagher also keep his job?)

In my professional career, I've gone through riogorous processes and I've also been head-hunted - both scenarios resulted in positive outcomes. People are very often still head-hunted today - the long arduous proces is not necessarily the best and only way forward (no doubt it sometimes is). I see the Lyon appointment as the latter - he really doesn't need to prove his coaching credentials, and there is no doubt he is a better senior coach than Ratten. And unlike the Malthouse Carlton disaster, Lyon is dog-hungry for another chance - Malthouse was a Larry David-esque spite appointment just to raise the middle finger at Collingwood and ultimately overtake Jock McHale's record (coincidentally Ratts was the poor victim on both occasions). It's simply a question of Lyon fitting in to the future direction and the future culture that the organisation is trying to build.

[bornadog]

We are on a unity ticket there with regard to the incompetent old boys club. Lethers is a buffoon who keeps managing to fail up, and he should have been sacked before any decision was made on Ratten

How he kept a job in any AFL capacity is beyond me following his antics in AFL HQ. For that matter, Lyon is in a similar position for the same thing. The Old Boys club lives.

[Sedat]

How he kept a job in any AFL capacity is beyond me following his antics in AFL HQ. For that matter, Lyon is in a similar position for the same thing. The Old Boys club lives.
I'm far less concerned about the private lives of consenting adults than general incompetence, and Lethers has never been a particularly gifted or savvy operator. Honestly Gill isn't much chop either, although he does have excellent hair and a great PR/stylist team.

[Bulldog Joe]

I'm far less concerned about the private lives of consenting adults than general incompetence, and Lethers has never been a particularly gifted or savvy operator. Honestly Gill isn't much chop either, although he does have excellent hair and a great PR/stylist team.

It is an interesting perception and Gill has been well paid for what he has done and it appears that not many fans seem to consider he has been worthy.

However, I had some feedback from a Sydney friend who I rate as quite knowledgeable.
He is predominantly a Union fan, but considers the AFL way ahead of the other codes in relation to the running of the organisation.

Is Gill due some credit?

[bornadog]

It is an interesting perception and Gill has been well paid for what he has done and it appears that not many fans seem to consider he has been worthy.

However, I had some feedback from a Sydney friend who I rate as quite knowledgeable.
He is predominantly a Union fan, but considers the AFL way ahead of the other codes in relation to the running of the organisation.

Is Gill due some credit?

Peter Gordon praised Gill during Covid and said under his leadership and the way he handled it was excellent.

[chef]

Walsh, Lyon, Hayes, Robert Harvey and I think Goddard are more than handy ins for the Saints footy department and I hear Silvagni might be in the mix to join them as well.

Say what you like about them but they're going full bore to fix things.

I think their supporters would be over the moon. Lyon is a very good coach and they've added some guys that genuinely love the club.

They've gotten a lot stronger.

[bornadog]

I'm far less concerned about the private lives of consenting adults than general incompetence, and Lethers has never been a particularly gifted or savvy operator. Honestly Gill isn't much chop either, although he does have excellent hair and a great PR/stylist team.

That's fine, but it is inappropriate behavior especially between Boss and subordinate.

[GVGjr]

I think their supporters would be over the moon. Lyon is a very good coach and they've added some guys that genuinely love the club.

They've gotten a lot stronger.

60K membership base and they have brought in some strong footy department people in.
Their membership base has stuck with them and all this news would be music to their ears.
If they get their stuff together on the field they could be a sleeping giant.

[Sedat]

It is an interesting perception and Gill has been well paid for what he has done and it appears that not many fans seem to consider he has been worthy.

However, I had some feedback from a Sydney friend who I rate as quite knowledgeable.
He is predominantly a Union fan, but considers the AFL way ahead of the other codes in relation to the running of the organisation.

Is Gill due some credit?
Running the AFL is a "can't fail" prospect. There are billions of dollars flowing through from broadcast rights deals and there are many millions more in contra advertising/media exposure that has spawned an entire cottage industry that is 100% dedicated to covering the code. The grassroots is dreadfully neglected by City Hall, despite this enormous pool of broadcast revenue.

Gill did encounter some difficulty during the COVID years and navigated this with some skill, but again he followed the lead of Peter V'Landys who has always been more proactive with a frankly inferior and much less national product. Gill is definitely a better operator than Lethers.

[bornadog]

60K membership base and they have brought in some strong footy department people in.
Their membership base has stuck with them and all this news would be music to their ears.
If they get their stuff together on the field they could be a sleeping giant.

Biggest issue is whether they have the players to pull it off. May take some years of building

[Sedat]

That's fine, but it is inappropriate behavior especially between Boss and subordinate.
This behaviour is none of my business. I presume the other party involved was/is more than capable of making their own decisions in life.

There have been many a relationship start from the office dynamic. Are they automatically immoral or inappropriate?

[GVGjr]

Biggest issue is whether they have the players to pull it off. May take some years of building

You talk about how when Bevo replaced Macca that everything else was in place which helped give Bevo a good start.
If you look at this as a 2 or 3 year window they have enough of the basics in place and a beefed up footy department should help them fast track a rebuild.

They certainly don't have what both Fremantle and the Saints had in terms of a playing list under his previous tenures but it's not a disaster.

They should get close to a 10% kick in membership as well.

[bornadog]

You talk about how when Bevo replaced Macca that everything else was in place which helped give Bevo a good start.
If you look at this as a 2 or 3 year window they have enough of the basics in place and a beefed up footy department should help them fast track a rebuild.

They certainly don't have what both Fremantle and the Saints had in terms of a playing list under his previous tenures but it's not a disaster.

They should get close to a 10% kick in membership as well.

Bevo already had players like Bont, Macrae, Stringer, Dahl, Wood, the Boyd's, Clayton, Morris etc

I don't see this caliber under the Saints. They wasted many years of draft picks on trading in players that never performed.

[GVGjr]

Bevo already had players like Bont, Macrae, Stringer, Dahl, Wood, the Boyd's, Clayton, Morris etc

I don't see this caliber under the Saints. They wasted many years of draft picks on trading in players that never performed.

Looking at this with a 2 or 3 year window is required.
I've already acknowledge he doesn't have the list he previously enjoyed.

[bornadog]

Looking at this with a 2 or 3 year window is required.
I've already acknowledge he doesn't have the list he previously enjoyed.

I agree, that is why I said he will need time to build.

[Grantysghost]

I agree, that is why I said he will need time to build.
Train wreck. Very enjoyable.

Many supporters I know are filthy with the way they treated Ratten, and still haven’t got an explanation as to why he was sacked.

That big membership kick was off the back of the work he’d done, I’m surprised how little credit he is getting and the instant belief Lyon will be better.

Time will tell.

Edit thought I’d look at some stats :

Lyon at Freo : W 96 D 1 L 87 (52.45)
Ratt at Stk. : W 34 D 0 L34 (50.00)

[MrMahatma]

Train wreck. Very enjoyable.

Many supporters I know are filthy with the way they treated Ratten, and still haven’t got an explanation as to why he was sacked.

That big membership kick was off the back of the work he’d done, I’m surprised how little credit he is getting and the instant belief Lyon will be better.

Time will tell.

Edit thought I’d look at some stats :

Lyon at Freo : W 96 D 1 L 87 (52.45)
Ratt at Stk. : W 34 D 0 L34 (50.00)

Coaches who take a team to a GF get a bit of grace after.

[Grantysghost]

Coaches who take a team to a GF get a bit of grace after.

This is true, I just think of guys like Rocket who were great coaches and never made GFs.
Not sure it's a hard and fast measure.
Lyon could coach, he's not had a successful season for some time I'm not sold he just is good again.
Recruiting is such a big part of success now.

[GVGjr]

This is true, I just think of guys like Rocket who were great coaches and never made GFs.
Not sure it's a hard and fast measure.
Lyon could coach, he's not had a successful season for some time I'm not sold he just is good again.
Recruiting is such a big part of success now.

Rocket got into one when he was at the Swans didn't he?
None with us

[Grantysghost]

Rocket got into one when he was at the Swans didn't he?
None with us
That’s right ! 96 I thought he started in 97.

[bornadog]

Rocket got into one when he was at the Swans didn't he?
None with us

Rocket said he has never really complained about umpires but the 2009 prelim was the worse umpiring he has ever encountered and still says to this day we should have been in that years Grand final.

[Grantysghost]

Rocket said he has never really complained about umpires but the 2009 prelim was the worse umpiring he has ever encountered and still says to this day we should have been in that years Grand final.

Argh that hurts BAD !

I remember last season we played the Saints, I spoke to Moz before the game and mentioned how much I dislike the Saints (due to that era mainly) and I mimicked a gold medal dive which extracted the desired result. He laughed and then shook his head as if to say what a knob.

He also intimated Reiwoldt cheated ;)

[Bulldog4life]

Argh that hurts BAD !

I remember last season we played the Saints, I spoke to Moz before the game and mentioned how much I dislike the Saints (due to that era mainly) and I mimicked a gold medal dive which extracted the desired result. He laughed and then shook his head as if to say what a knob.

He also intimated Reiwoldt cheated ;)

I adore your name dropping Gg. :D

[Grantysghost]

I adore your name dropping Gg. :D

Ha, he was the coterie manager at that stage so it wasnt anything special to me he spoke to everyone in the room.

Tough gig for him. You do get to know them quite well actually when they are in that role.

I'm not surprised he left too much fan boying going on (from me mainly).

I've got the world's worst memory so I probably tell the same stories 5x on here!

[Bulldog4life]

Ha, he was the coterie manager at that stage so it wasnt anything special to me he spoke to everyone in the room.

Tough gig for him. You do get to know them quite well actually when they are in that role.

I'm not surprised he left too much fan boying going on (from me mainly).

I've got the world's worst memory so I probably tell the same stories 5x on here!

Only joshing mate. Enjoy your stories.

[Axe Man]

I've got the world's worst memory so I probably tell the same stories 5x on here!

You've still got some work to do to catch Twodogs in that department. ;)

[Sedat]

You've still got some work to do to catch Twodogs in that department. ;)
I never tire of hearing TD's story about the world's worst free kick - holding the ball against Michael McKenna at the SCG when he was knocked out and had a broken jaw.

[bornadog]

I never tire of hearing TD's story about the world's worst free kick - holding the ball against Michael McKenna at the SCG when he was knocked out and had a broken jaw.

Nothing beats that

[Grantysghost]

I never tire of hearing TD's story about the world's worst free kick - holding the ball against Michael McKenna at the SCG when he was knocked out and had a broken jaw.

I need to hear it.

[Twodogs]

I need to hear it.

It's pretty much as it sounds. Mick McKenna joins a pack competing for the ball in the forward pocket and gets knocked unconscious. While he's lying on the ground with a broken jaw from the king hit and watching the birdies a Sydney player picks him up and looks at the umpire and sort of waves him in the air. The umpire stops, smiles, blows his whistle and makes the HTB signal while Micky sleeps right through it. The really *!*!*!*!ed thing was that at no *!*!*!*!ing time did he ever actually have the ball in his possession. The Sydney player sort of deposits McKenna on the mark then goes back to take his free kick


Un*!*!*!*!ing believable. While I was standing there and processing what was obviously the worst umpiring decision in the history of League football my dear old dad leant over and said "it's a long way home mate"

Anyway. As they like to say, it's a funny old game.

[Grantysghost]

It's pretty much as it sounds. Mick McKenna joins a pack competing for the ball in the forward pocket and gets knocked unconscious. While he's lying on the ground with a broken jaw from the king hit and watching the birdies a Sydney player picks him up and looks at the umpire and sort of waves him in the air. The umpire stops, smiles, blows his whistle and makes the HTB signal while Micky sleeps right through it. The really *!*!*!*!ed thing was that at no *!*!*!*!ing time did he ever actually have the ball in his possession. The Sydney player sort of deposits McKenna on the mark then goes back to take his free kick


Un*!*!*!*!ing believable. While I was standing there and processing what was obviously the worst umpiring decision in the history of League football my dear old dad leant over and said "it's a long way home mate"

Anyway. As they like to say, it's a funny old game.

Holy cow that's weekend at Maccas style.

Is that why he wore the helmet?

[hujsh]

It's pretty much as it sounds. Mick McKenna joins a pack competing for the ball in the forward pocket and gets knocked unconscious. While he's lying on the ground with a broken jaw from the king hit and watching the birdies a Sydney player picks him up and looks at the umpire and sort of waves him in the air. The umpire stops, smiles, blows his whistle and makes the HTB signal while Micky sleeps right through it. The really *!*!*!*!ed thing was that at no *!*!*!*!ing time did he ever actually have the ball in his possession. The Sydney player sort of deposits McKenna on the mark then goes back to take his free kick


Un*!*!*!*!ing believable. While I was standing there and processing what was obviously the worst umpiring decision in the history of League football my dear old dad leant over and said "it's a long way home mate"

Anyway. As they like to say, it's a funny old game.

Now we get to hear Sydney supporters complain about umpiring because we beat them in a grand final

[bornadog]

It's pretty much as it sounds. Mick McKenna joins a pack competing for the ball in the forward pocket and gets knocked unconscious. While he's lying on the ground with a broken jaw from the king hit and watching the birdies a Sydney player picks him up and looks at the umpire and sort of waves him in the air. The umpire stops, smiles, blows his whistle and makes the HTB signal while Micky sleeps right through it. The really *!*!*!*!ed thing was that at no *!*!*!*!ing time did he ever actually have the ball in his possession. The Sydney player sort of deposits McKenna on the mark then goes back to take his free kick


Un*!*!*!*!ing believable. While I was standing there and processing what was obviously the worst umpiring decision in the history of League football my dear old dad leant over and said "it's a long way home mate"

Anyway. As they like to say, it's a funny old game.

Didn't a similar thing happen to Cook in the 97 finals when he was knocked out in the goal square and because he had the ball in his arms HTB was called? That was against Sydney as well.

[Twodogs]

Holy cow that's weekend at Maccas style.

Is that why he wore the helmet?

I think that he was wearing the helmet on and off before that but it became a more permanent thing after that

[Twodogs]

Didn't a similar thing happen to Cook in the 97 finals when he was knocked out in the goal square and because he had the ball in his arms HTB was called? That was against Sydney as well.

I don't remember it

[Twodogs]

Now we get to hear Sydney supporters complain about umpiring because we beat them in a grand final

It's a beautiful thing. Like tantric sex for my ears.

You could call it aural sex.

[bornadog]

I don't remember it

around 38 min into video - wasn't HTB but he was punched in the face and knocked out. Sydney got the free


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7_so_mBQNE

[Dry Rot]

Now we get to hear Sydney supporters complain about umpiring because we beat them in a grand final

They are still complaining about it

[hujsh]

They are still complaining about it

And we will for all eternity. And we can nourish ourselves with the salt from their tears. And it will be good

[jeemak]

around 38 min into video - wasn't HTB but he was punched in the face and knocked out. Sydney got the free


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7_so_mBQNE

I remember that. What a piece of shit Dunkley was.

[Happy Days]

I remember that. What a piece of shit Dunkley was.

And don’t get me started on his old man.

[GVGjr]

I wonder if they way they have tarnished the coaching performances in 2022 falls on to Lade?

“Significant” coaching problems, no more selling home games: Saints release review findings (https://www.sen.com.au/news/2022/11/11/significant-coaching-problems-no-more-selling-home-games-saints-release/)

St Kilda has released the findings of its review which has seen widespread change throughout the club’s football department.

Since the report was commissioned, the Saints have appointed a new GM of football, a senior coach, two senior assistants, a development coach and a high-performance expert.

On Friday afternoon the Saints released a six-page document detailing the findings and recommendations going forward, with several already complete after the football department changes.

After a strong start to the season, St Kilda won just three games after the bye to miss out on finals action. The key finding states: “(St Kilda) did not have the platform needed to support a sustainable winning culture and that significant change was needed in the Football Department, and more broadly in the Club, to address concerns with the processes and fundamentals of our Football Program.”

The club acknowledged its quick start to the year but added “significant issues in relation to (the) coaching program” partly explained the inconsistency that has plagued the club for several years.

There have been suggestions that sacked coach Brett Ratten simply wasn’t afforded a list good enough to play finals or go deep into September. As a result of the review, the Saints will update its list strategy and continue looking to improve its top-end talent following a review by former North Melbourne list manager Glenn Luff.

Another key finding was the Saints needed to minimise the distractions on the football department. As a result, the club has chosen not to sell a home game in 2023 interstate.

St Kilda was heavily criticised during the season for selling a home game to Cairns in a game against Port Adelaide, a clash which the Saints ultimately lost against a terribly out-of-form side.

The review concludes by stating that more “revolutionary change” is required than what was originally thought.

Other notable details suggest the club needs clearer expectations both on and off the field as well as a culture that offers “vigorous” debate, something that the club under Ratten had been accused of lacking.

Simon Lethlean’s transition from head of football to CEO also left a larger than-anticipated hole in the club’s footy department this year.

Going forward, the key recommendation revolves around investing in the leadership and development of St Kilda players, with the club's best players all still under 30.

President Andrew Bassat, who initiated the review and played a part in it, said in a club statement: “In short, the Review found that we had much to do, and needed significant change to build these foundations. You will see from the staffing appointments already announced that we are moving aggressively to implement the Review’s findings.

“The Board and Management now have a very clear shared view of what needs to be done to ensure success and a firm resolve to deliver on it. I am now more optimistic than ever about the future of our Club.”

[Mitcha]

The cynic in me thinks that after doing the review on the Saints list management that Glenn Luff very shortly gets a gig in the Saints list management team!

[GVGjr]

The cynic in me thinks that after doing the review on the Saints list management that Glenn Luff very shortly gets a gig in the Saints list management team!

I think he's done with list management roles at clubs but you might be right.
He basically folded and bailed when Kane Cornes questioned his selections so I don't think he copes well with any scrutiny being applied.

[The Doctor]

Lol Aints indeed

The report conveniently serves it up to Ratten. He gets the boot.

The report also raises issues with the List Management, which I believe has been the major cause of their problem, so Lethlean gets promoted to CEO.

They then get a guy who has overseen the list management at a club that finished with 2 wooden spoons and a 2nd last placing under his tenure to review their list.

Go figure

[EasternWest]

Lol Aints indeed

The report conveniently serves it up to Ratten. He gets the boot.

The report also raises issues with the List Management, which I believe has been the major cause of their problem, so Lethlean gets promoted to CEO.

They then get a guy who has overseen the list management at a club that finished with 2 wooden spoons and a 2nd last placing under his tenure to review their list.

Go figure

Surely they're giving Andrew Thorburn a call just to round it off.

[macca]

Apart from Walsh , have any these people been worthy of merit being involved in this review come from any successful clubs ?
Luff has come from North
Lethalan has being given a cushy job to care take of saint kilda as his one of afl protect species and mate of ceo inner sanctum
If the AFL was not a monopoly you wonder if any of these people could get a job based on real skills ?
I have a feeling Ross the boss could witness more board and management upheaval in the e next 18 months , especially when they start losing 3 games in a row.

Now Lyon has his core group of ex-players from this 2xGF feats era, lets see how long the harmony last, before they fireworks start to fire some of the way the management of this club has been run.

I give it 14 weeks from round 1 ( this includes the byes )

[Twodogs]

Surely they're giving Andrew Thorburn a call just to round it off.

Maybe he could pray for them?

[Twodogs]

Lol Aints indeed

The report conveniently serves it up to Ratten. He gets the boot.

The report also raises issues with the List Management, which I believe has been the major cause of their problem, so Lethlean gets promoted to CEO.

They then get a guy who has overseen the list management at a club that finished with 2 wooden spoons and a 2nd last placing under his tenure to review their list.

Go figure

It's a joke isn't it? They've conveniently sheeted home all the blame to the people they have already shafted so their review is that everything is just peachy keen. All those nasty incompetent people who have been holding us back are gone so there's no need to look any further.

It reminds me of that guy in Iraq who used to stand amongst the rubble dodging missiles assuring everyone that everything was just fine.

[Bulldog4life]

It's a joke isn't it? They've conveniently sheeted home all the blame to the people they have already shafted so their review is that everything is just peachy keen. All those nasty incompetent people who have been holding us back are gone so there's no need to look any further.

It reminds me of that guy in Iraq who used to stand amongst the rubble dodging missiles assuring everyone that everything was just fine.

Baghdad Bob the Information Minister.

[Dry Rot]

I am surprised the report was only 6 pages long.

[Twodogs]

Baghdad Bob the Information Minister.

That was him. But his name was Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf

[Stevo]

Apart from Walsh , have any these people been worthy of merit being involved in this review come from any successful clubs ?
Luff has come from North
Lethalan has being given a cushy job to care take of saint kilda as his one of afl protect species and mate of ceo inner sanctum
If the AFL was not a monopoly you wonder if any of these people could get a job based on real skills ?
I have a feeling Ross the boss could witness more board and management upheaval in the e next 18 months , especially when they start losing 3 games in a row.

Now Lyon has his core group of ex-players from this 2xGF feats era, lets see how long the harmony last, before they fireworks start to fire some of the way the management of this club has been run.

I give it 14 weeks from round 1 ( this includes the byes )

Luff is an analyst not a trouble shooter. so don't worry about him and Walsh will know how to smell BS. Lets see if bringing back the band works for them or not.

[Stevo]

Baghdad Bob the Information Minister.

He posts on here.

[Bulldog4life]

He posts on here.

Tell me more Stevo.

[GVGjr]

Herald Sun footy analyst Mick McGuane (https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/news/eddie-mcguire-on-why-the-mcg-should-have-a-roof-in-proposed-redevelopment/news-story/51e73084b563ae231cbdd0d4a6c17574) has predicted new St Kilda coach Ross Lyon will remodel his trademark defence-first strategies into a far more attacking mode as AFL clubs look to replicate the style played by 2022 premiers Geelong.

McGuane has huge admiration for Lyon’s coaching nous, having taken St Kilda to Grand Finals in 2009 and 2010 and Fremantle in 2013.

But as successful as Lyon’s defensive style was a decade or more ago, McGuane says the veteran coach is smart enough to adapt to the new trend in AFL football, with a more run-and-gun style fuelling teams such as Geelong and preliminary finalists Collingwood in 2022.

McGuane said this year provided one of the most attractive brands of football in recent memory, and he expects more of the same next year.

“Knowing the copycat industry that AFL footy is in terms of coaching, we can expect teams to adopt the Collingwood style, which they adopted from Richmond,” McGuane said.

“And we saw Geelong go with faster ball movement with great success this year, so we will see teams wanting to adopt that more attractive, exciting factor in their games.

“It will be interesting to see if Ross (Lyon) aligns his psyche to that as well. He has always been so strong on defence and (his teams) have been hard to score against. But at times they have struggled to score (themselves).

“I am tipping Ross will be trying to score as much as he can, so we can expect a style change. It is going to be very interesting seeing how he adapts to the new trends in footy.”

Former Hawthorn champion Shane Crawford said Lyon would be the most intriguing character to watch in AFL football next season, along with North Melbourne’s new coach Alastair Clarkson and Essendon’s new coach in Brad Scott.

“I always remember playing against Ross Lyon teams and I found it really difficult because of the way he would block space so that you could never run directly towards goals,” Crawford said.

“He always made it very difficult for opposition teams.

“But he will have to make some changes. He will have to go that way (a more attacking brand) because at the end of the day, you have to score to win.

“That attacking brand has been used by a lot of the younger, newer coaches such as Craig McRae and Sammy Mitchell. That will definitely be a focus for Ross and St Kilda.”

Crawford said the AFL and the AFL Coaches’ Association needed to keep an eye on the welfare of senior coaches, saying it was a real area of concern given the scrutiny and pressure they are under now.

“Brett Ratten put everything into it and did a good job, but still lost his job. Coaches are under more pressure than ever these days,” Crawford said.

“We just need to make sure they are all getting the right support at all times. ”

[Grantysghost]

Who is Mick McGuane and why do they keep digging him up once a year :)

[GVGjr]

Who is Mick McGuane and why do they keep digging him up once a year :)

He's a decent analyst.
It will be interesting to see if Lyon can reinvent himself as a more attacking or balanced coach but I suspect he can.
The Saints will be one of the teams to watch early on as they are really overhauling their footy department.
Their list is average so they'll have to over perform.

[Grantysghost]

He's a decent analyst.
It will be interesting to see if Lyon can reinvent himself as a more attacking or balanced coach but I suspect he can.
The Saints will be one of the teams to watch early on as they are really overhauling their footy department.
Their list is average so they'll have to over perform.

He's an "analyst" I'll go that far with you :)

Yes will be very interesting. Lyon playing defensive is a no brainer, that's his m.o., as you say though you have to have the cattle.

What I'll be most interested in is how he deals with the insanity of the stand rule, the kick in rule and the 666. Are we getting last touch out of bounds too? Defensive coaches are being undermined at every turn.

[Dry Rot]

Former Hawthorn champion Shane Crawford



I assume Woofers are fascinated by Shane Crawford's post footy career

Here is your latest update:

Joseph and the Amazing Technicolour Dreamcoat review – a joyous, daggy night out


The only disappointment, well telegraphed by the controversy of his casting, is ex-AFL footballer Shane Crawford. In fact, disappointment doesn’t begin to cover it. In a production where every performer is at the top of their game, Crawford’s blundering, tone-deaf turn as the Pharaoh is crushingly bad. Utterly devoid of stage presence, incapable of delivering a single line with flair or conviction, his addition to the production reads like a giant insult. Things should improve markedly when Trevor Ashley takes over the role in December.

Otherwise I heard he was pretty good... :D

[Twodogs]

The only disappointment, well telegraphed by the controversy of his casting, is ex-AFL footballer Shane Crawford. In fact, disappointment doesn’t begin to cover it. In a production where every performer is at the top of their game, Crawford’s blundering, tone-deaf turn as the Pharaoh is crushingly bad. Utterly devoid of stage presence, incapable of delivering a single line with flair or conviction, his addition to the production reads like a giant insult. Things should improve markedly when Trevor Ashley takes over the role in December.

I saw a bit of his performance the other night on TV. Godawful is the best word I can think of to describe it, and that's being kind. He's very brave getting up in front of audiences and going through whatever it is he's trying to do

[GVGjr]

From the Age. A bit of set-back for them.

Star St Kilda forward Max King is set to undergo a left shoulder reconstruction after a training incident that will significantly delay his season next year.

The 22-year-old suffered the injury in a marking contest at training on Monday, with subsequent scans confirming the severity.

https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.358%2C$multiply_0.9788%2C$ratio_1.5%2C$width_756%2C$ x_0%2C$y_386/t_crop_custom/q_86%2Cf_auto/b808a2ddd98575a4bf86e5ce3d6560550d7d32e6

King will visit a surgeon on Tuesday and is expected to undergo an operation within days in a hammer blow to coach Ross Lyon’s hopes of making an instant impression.

King played every game last season and kicked a career-high 52 goals to establish himself as arguably the club’s most important player.

The Saints’ new executive general manager of football, Geoff Walsh, said King’s setback was “extremely disappointing”.

“He had come back for pre-season in really great condition, which is a credit to his professionalism; a trait we know will stand him in good stead as he works through his rehab over the next few months,” Walsh said.

“The recovery and rehabilitation period for this injury will be a number of months.

“We will provide updates as he progresses through his rehab program – suffice to say his return to play will not be until the season is well underway.”

The Saints were not active in the trade period, with the free agency addition of ex-Western Bulldogs swingman Zaine Cordy the exception as they focused on the draft.

Undersized target Tim Membrey (34 goals) and Jack Higgins (30) were St Kilda’s top scoring options behind King and suddenly have much more responsibility.

Cordy, too, may need to be unleashed predominantly as a forward, unless Lyon chooses to send Dougal Howard or Josh Battle into attack again.

Cooper Sharman and Mason Wood, who spent most of his time this year on a wing, are other options, while ruckman Rowan Marshall is also a capable forward.

[Axe Man]

You pray this kind of thing doesn't happen in pre season training in particular. I still remember when Luke Darcy went down just before just before Christmas.

Good luck to new saints spearhead Zaine Cordy.

[bulldogtragic]

How unprofessional. If Phillipou was there earlier his professionalism would rubbed off on King earlier and these unprofessional training incidents wouldn’t happen.

[Grantysghost]

From the Age. A bit of set-back for them.

Star St Kilda forward Max King is set to undergo a left shoulder reconstruction after a training incident that will significantly delay his season next year.

The 22-year-old suffered the injury in a marking contest at training on Monday, with subsequent scans confirming the severity.

https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.358%2C$multiply_0.9788%2C$ratio_1.5%2C$width_756%2C$ x_0%2C$y_386/t_crop_custom/q_86%2Cf_auto/b808a2ddd98575a4bf86e5ce3d6560550d7d32e6

King will visit a surgeon on Tuesday and is expected to undergo an operation within days in a hammer blow to coach Ross Lyon’s hopes of making an instant impression.

King played every game last season and kicked a career-high 52 goals to establish himself as arguably the club’s most important player.

The Saints’ new executive general manager of football, Geoff Walsh, said King’s setback was “extremely disappointing”.

“He had come back for pre-season in really great condition, which is a credit to his professionalism; a trait we know will stand him in good stead as he works through his rehab over the next few months,” Walsh said.

“The recovery and rehabilitation period for this injury will be a number of months.

“We will provide updates as he progresses through his rehab program – suffice to say his return to play will not be until the season is well underway.”

The Saints were not active in the trade period, with the free agency addition of ex-Western Bulldogs swingman Zaine Cordy the exception as they focused on the draft.

Undersized target Tim Membrey (34 goals) and Jack Higgins (30) were St Kilda’s top scoring options behind King and suddenly have much more responsibility.

Cordy, too, may need to be unleashed predominantly as a forward, unless Lyon chooses to send Dougal Howard or Josh Battle into attack again.

Cooper Sharman and Mason Wood, who spent most of his time this year on a wing, are other options, while ruckman Rowan Marshall is also a capable forward.

He'd make a better Mario than Chris Pratt. Itsa ME!

[comrade]

Imagine if he injured it because Zaine went full throttle in a contest at training.

[soupman]

Cant believe they are already talking about unleashing Cordy as a forward.

[mjp]

Cant believe they are already talking about unleashing Cordy as a forward.

It might sound stupid but he's the perfect guy to play with his elbow in the back of Steven May/Allir etc. Liam Jones even. I can't see how he impacts either as a defender or as a leading forward...we've all heard that song before.

I wish Zaine nothing but the best - he was a good servant for us.

[soupman]

It might sound stupid but he's the perfect guy to play with his elbow in the back of Steven May/Allir etc. Liam Jones even. I can't see how he impacts either as a defender or as a leading forward...we've all heard that song before.

I wish Zaine nothing but the best - he was a good servant for us.

Yeah I agree on a case by case basis I think he's fine there, but things are looking pretty dire if you are talking about it in early December.

[Dry Rot]

The King brothers are not exactly durable.

[Dogs 24/7]

The King brothers are not exactly durable.

and despite that the Saints would give the world for Ben if they could pry him from the Suns.

[azabob]

and despite that the Saints would give the world for Ben if they could pry him from the Suns.

Every other club would also. Ben seems to be the more versatile and consistent of the two?

[Testekill]

The King brothers are not exactly durable.

They're both phenomenal players but their injury history is pretty worrying. You'd have a crack if they're on the table but you'd absolutely want to make sure that you get some competent depth just because you can't count on them year round.

[GVGjr]

This one might be a another good move for them

Silvagni (https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/st-kilda-searching-for-new-list-boss-after-james-gallagher-departs-the-club/news-story/154067ae831d538827d3d23896d85108)

St Kilda searching for new list boss after James Gallagher departs the club

St Kilda is on the hunt for a new list manager to help spearhead the club’s resurgence after parting ways with talent boss James Gallagher.

The Saints confirmed on Tuesday Gallagher would depart the club as he looked to move home to South Australia for family reasons.

The club will embark on a process to find a replacement although it remains unclear whether former Carlton list boss and ex-St Kilda assistant coach Stephen Silvagni will be a target.

Silvagni was cut by the Blues over an alleged conflict of interest because his son Jack was on the club’s list and has since led the league website’s trade coverage in recent years.

St Kilda’s list strategy has failed to help the club rise up the ladder in recent years following moves to top-up on some mature-age recruits including high-priced midfielders Brad Hill and Daniel Hannebery.

Other pickups include Dan Butler, Paddy Ryder, Zak Jones, Dougal Howard, James Frawley, Dean Kent and Shaun McKernan.

St Kilda’s recent football department review – which led to the sacking of coach Brett Ratten – recommended a change in list strategy after the club missed finals in 2022 despite an 8-3 start to the season.

Former North Melbourne coach David Noble helped lead the review, while former Kangaroos list boss Glenn Luff completed a list analysis for the Saints which found it lacked top-end talent.

The club’s new list boss will be on a mission to add more A-Graders, after missing out on Collingwood free agent Jordan De Goey, and recalibrate the salary cap.

The Saints are known to have a tighter-than-expected cap after the moves to add some mid-tier players on decent wages.

Gallagher, who played 38 games for Adelaide Crows, joined the Saints in 2018 after a career in banking

Chief executive Simon Lethlean thanked Gallagher for his contribution to the club over the past four years.

“James has contributed significantly to the improvement of our list and culture throughout his time at the Saints,” Lethlean said.

“He has an appetite for hard work and his care and passion for seeking to improve the quality of our list and the culture of our club was evident, no more so than when taking on more than just his primary duties throughout the Covid interrupted 2020 and 2021 years.

“We wish James, his wife Laura and children Jack, Alice and Olivia all the best for their move back home.”

[Axe Man]

St Kilda's list to be dominated by GWS off casts if SOS gets the job.

[soupman]

St Kilda's list to be dominated by GWS off casts if SOS gets the job.

He did Carlton more recently so i expect him to be sourcing from that well this time...which is probably still GWS off casts just with a bit more wear on the tires.

[weltschmerz]

Zaine Cordy lagging majorly behind in their running drills. 50m off the pace in 400s.

[Axe Man]

St Kilda and CEO Simon Lethlean come to mutual agreement to part ways
(https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/news/afl-2024-st-kilda-and-ceo-simon-lethlean-come-to-mutual-agreement-to-part-ways/news-story/87b0c319e028d1727f9b86e6b1ff0f97)
Simon Lethlean has left his post as CEO of St Kilda, in a decision described by the club as mutual.

The former AFL footy boss replaced Matt Finnis as chief executive in late 2022, after previously being St Kilda?s general manager of football.

The split was announced on Thursday with chief operating officer Carl Dilena to step in as interim CEO.

?Simon and the board share the view that a new CEO would be best placed to take the club forward,? Saints president Andrew Bassat said.

Lethlean oversaw the surprise sacking of Brett Ratten months after he signed a contract extension and the installation of his replacement, Ross Lyon.

Lyon led the Saints to the finals in his first year in charge in 2023 but reports emerged mid year about a split between Lyon and Lethlean.

The returning coach brought in virtually a brand new regime into the football department and while both the coach and CEO denied any rift, Lethlean acknowledged the new direction at St Kilda was part of his reason for stepping away.

?The club has a new coach and a new strategy and I have agreed with the president that it is time for the club to seek a new CEO,? Lethlean said on Thursday.

Lyon said in July the pair had worked amicably to that point.

?Clearly when I?ve been transitioning into the club, there has been a new regime in football,? Lyon said then.

?Things are done differently and there are changes, teams are disbanded.

?There has been some change and with change, I wouldn?t say there is unhappiness but sometimes not everyone is comfortable with change.

?From my end and Simon?s end, we are fine. We have common friends and people professionally we have worked with.?

The Saints boasted a record membership tally of 60,239 in 2023 and a statutory profit of just over $1.7 million.

But the club remains reliant on AFL distributions, having received just over $13 million from the league in 2023.

Lethlean was forced to resign from his role at the AFL in 2017 after what then league CEO Gillon McLachlan described as an ?inappropriate? relationship with a younger staffer.

[jeemak]

Look out commercial property world, you're getting a new drop in!