Four-headed monster

[Go_Dogs]

Would we dare?

Naughton. Lobb. Jamarra. Darcy.

With a splash of Chilli.

I wonder if we’ll see the four-headed monster deployed this year? A lot of it of course depends on roles and form and opposition and weather etc etc. I’d like to see a bit more of Naughton up the field, Jamarra has wheels and can play a few different roles, Lobb is comfortable leading up around the 50m line and Darce has shown he can pluck a mark deep.

Naughton and Jamarra are (perhaps I’ve proved and one in theory) good enough at ground level to apply pressure and help out with team defence too.

Thoughts?

[GVGjr]

It will happen GD. It might even include Bruce.
If Darcy keeps improving it could create a lot of match-up challenges for the opposition teams.

If we can develop a crumbing forward they could hit the scoreboard regularly.

[jeemak]

Would we dare?

Naughton. Lobb. Jamarra. Darcy.

With a splash of Chilli.

I wonder if we’ll see the four-headed monster deployed this year? A lot of it of course depends on roles and form and opposition and weather etc etc. I’d like to see a bit more of Naughton up the field, Jamarra has wheels and can play a few different roles, Lobb is comfortable leading up around the 50m line and Darce has shown he can pluck a mark deep.

Naughton and Jamarra are (perhaps I’ve proved and one in theory) good enough at ground level to apply pressure and help out with team defence too.

Thoughts?

If we do I don't reckon James Brayshaw will be able to contain himself.

However, I feel we'll be spared that indecency and will see Darcy played back when both he and Marra/ Bruce are in the team.

The most intriguing thing for me is what we do with Bruce, and whether his inclusion in the side will have an impact forward, back or both.

[F'scary]

I would be worried that it backfires in that the marks are not forthcoming for various reasons and the other team rebounds with greater ease. We will watch their backs run away from our talls laughing as they take extra bounces.

[mjp]

Would we dare?

Naughton. Lobb. Jamarra. Darcy.



So...that's a one-headed monster (Naughton) isn't it? I don't think Jamarra and Darcy are close to monster status just yet, and Lobb...

I am so unconvinced that this = successful forward setup...I truly hope there is a plan there somewhere!

[Mantis]

So...that's a one-headed monster (Naughton) isn't it? I don't think Jamarra and Darcy are close to monster status just yet, and Lobb...

I am so unconvinced that this = successful forward setup...I truly hope there is a plan there somewhere!

The plan for the past 5-6 years has been to kick bombs to the hot spot and hope Naughts sits on someone's head... we've added more talls now so I guess that gives us a better chance of marking it, doesn't it?

[The Doctor]

The plan for the past 5-6 years has been to kick bombs to the hot spot and hope Naughts sits on someone's head... we've added more talls now so I guess that gives us a better chance of marking it, doesn't it?

Who's going to mop up the spillage when they don't clunk it?

[Mofra]

I think we can carry one guy in the F50 who isn't super agile on the deck (Lobb, Bruce or Darcy). Only one.
If Darcy gets a gig as an intercepting defender this year, he can always pinch hit forward when Lobb is giving Chilli a chop-out in the ruck.

The Crows years ago could manage a 4-tall set-up but they had Jenkins and Tom Lynch who were amazing runners, and two absolute gun small forwards (Cameron and Betts) to complement them. That's probably the only time it's worked, isn't it?

[bornadog]

The plan for the past 5-6 years has been to kick bombs to the hot spot and hope Naughts sits on someone's head... we've added more talls now so I guess that gives us a better chance of marking it, doesn't it?

Last year we were number one for marks inside 50. This year we dropped to 4th - but only 3 less average per game v Geelong.


Who's going to mop up the spillage when they don't clunk it?

Marking is not the issue, it is when it hits the ground - can we stop the ball coming out of inside 50 and going all the way up the other end.

Dunkley and Naughton were our best tacklers inside 50 and top 10 in AFL - we need others to step up

[Go_Dogs]

It will happen GD. It might even include Bruce.
If Darcy keeps improving it could create a lot of match-up challenges for the opposition teams.

If we can develop a crumbing forward they could hit the scoreboard regularly.

I can’t believe I left Bruce off…!

[Go_Dogs]

So...that's a one-headed monster (Naughton) isn't it? I don't think Jamarra and Darcy are close to monster status just yet, and Lobb...

I am so unconvinced that this = successful forward setup...I truly hope there is a plan there somewhere!

Isn’t this where the roles come into and who plays high up to the wings, who stays deep, who do we clear space for, who applies the blocks or dummy leads and all the other complexities I don’t understand etc etc?


There has been lots of talk about needing a crumbers, however I assume even as a baseline not having defenders intercept mark every time is a better proposition. We might not have the capability in our small forwards (or small forwards for that matter) other sides do, but at least the ball hitting the ground is better than being out marked (I think).

[mjp]

We've added more talls now so I guess that gives us a better chance of marking it, doesn't it?

:-)

I know you think it doesn't and I know you know that I know that you think it doesn't.

[jeemak]

Last year we were number one for marks inside 50. This year we dropped to 4th - but only 3 less average per game v Geelong.



Marking is not the issue, it is when it hits the ground - can we stop the ball coming out of inside 50 and going all the way up the other end.

Dunkley and Naughton were our best tacklers inside 50 and top 10 in AFL - we need others to step up

It's also when it doesn't hit the ground and we don't mark it.

We've got to get better at using the ball laterally quickly when going forward and things aren't going perfectly for us, rather than doubling down on our possession and handball game and bombing the footy to the opposition interceptors. We've also just got to get better at competing with opposition interceptors. Hopefully having the tall timber we do can help with the latter.

[Rocco Jones]

Being tall doesn't automatically make you immobile and being small doesn't automatically make you mobile.

Of the 4 we would probably go with:
- Naughts his pressure definitely good enough, lots of i50 tackles. Not great with the ball once it hits the ground but more 'mobile' than most of our small forwards
- Mara had a pleasing season development wise. He is still young though and will have quiet patches/games. Can be great with bursts of pressure. If he can consistently have a presence, it'll be easier to carry him as an 'extra' tall.
- Lobb he is a lead and mark guy. Not a dinosaur but we pay a price mobility wise to have him in there.

Then...
Juice or Darcy

Juice is a pretty old school-ish KPF even when up and going. Definitely pay a price mobility wise.

Darcy at this stage is a bit mark or nothing. Can have glimpses of brilliance of the deck but can also go missing for ages, which isn't a concern as he is still a kid.

Four tall forwards CAN work but not when one is a R2/fwd type, one is developing into a consistent KPF (who can definitely be the extra type over time) and the third is either a brilliant but raw kid or a mark, kick, goal or nothing guy.

[Bulldog Joe]

Surely it is the responsibility of the coaches to develop a system that maximises the strengths of the playing group.

Anything could work but we need them creating space for each other and providing clear targets for the delivery inside 50.

IF we could actually get that happening we would be very difficult to beat.

[jeemak]

Surely it is the responsibility of the coaches to develop a system that maximises the strengths of the playing group.

Anything could work but we need them creating space for each other and providing clear targets for the delivery inside 50.

IF we could actually get that happening we would be very difficult to beat.

On the eye the stats BAD posted don't really stack up, because what I've highlighted always seems to be an issue for us. We do get volume of opportunity when competitive, which should create more marks naturally until the forward line becomes ridiculously congested which it can.

I think as I've posted before, when we're not playing well we over-handle the footy and it means defences get time to squeeze back. I'm less worried about forward system as I am about having players around the footy who inside/ outside players and can burst laterally to find some space. I also want to see us be a bit more bold with our midfield kicking which I think we can be given one of our major accumulators who wasn't great/ creative with his feet has now left the club. Bont playing more midfield time should help this as well.

[bulldogtragic]

Would we dare?

Naughton. Lobb. Jamarra. Darcy.

With a splash of Chilli.

I wonder if we’ll see the four-headed monster deployed this year? A lot of it of course depends on roles and form and opposition and weather etc etc. I’d like to see a bit more of Naughton up the field, Jamarra has wheels and can play a few different roles, Lobb is comfortable leading up around the 50m line and Darce has shown he can pluck a mark deep.

Naughton and Jamarra are (perhaps I’ve proved and one in theory) good enough at ground level to apply pressure and help out with team defence too.

Thoughts?

Luke Frankenstein-Beveridge:
Look! It's moving. It's alive. It's alive... It's alive, it's moving, it's alive, it's alive, it's alive, it's alive, IT'S ALIVE!

Sam Moritz-Power:
Luke -- In the name of God!

Henry Frankenstein-Beveridge:
Oh, in the name of God! Now I know what it feels like to be God!

[Mofra]

It can work, but probably not every week.

We have Melbourne round 1 and Brisbane round 3 - both teams that have 'short' KPDs.

[Go_Dogs]

Bring. It. On.

[MrMahatma]

And maybe they’ll play better together after they’ve played together for a few months?

[jeemak]

The spread across our 417 disposals today was 266 kicks vs.151 handballs which seems odd for us, and is it a sign of us wanting to move the ball more directly to our tall timbre?*

Our percentage difference for kicks to handball in 2022 was 32%, this game it was 55%. Will be interesting to see if using the footy by foot becomes a higher priority than sharing it around by hand has been in the past.

*Timbre on purpose

[dog town]

The spread across our 417 disposals today was 266 kicks vs.151 handballs which seems odd for us, and is it a sign of us wanting to move the ball more directly to our tall timbre?*

Our percentage difference for kicks to handball in 2022 was 32%, this game it was 55%. Will be interesting to see if using the footy by foot becomes a higher priority than sharing it around by hand has been in the past.

*Timbre on purpose
Noticed that ratio as well which will be an interesting watch. Forward 50 entries seemed deliberately deeper to me, could be a bit of the 2020 Stkilda plan coming through where they played the 3 talls and targeted deep entries with crumbers hitting their feet. If they were shallow they were generally wider kicks was my feel without reviewing it.

[bornadog]

They kicked 10 goals between them

[ledge]

Weightman, Scott and Archie make good crumbers , in my opinion I think Jamarra and Naughton are good at it too if they don’t go up together , both have great ground ball skill . Extremely impressed with Scott’s work and positioning yesterday . Under rated.

[Mofra]

Noticed that ratio as well which will be an interesting watch. Forward 50 entries seemed deliberately deeper to me, could be a bit of the 2020 Stkilda plan coming through where they played the 3 talls and targeted deep entries with crumbers hitting their feet. If they were shallow they were generally wider kicks was my feel without reviewing it.
Deeper entries means teams will kick to clear defence... and English looks set to play a kick behind the play to defend the 'down the line' kick.
It seems we have a very obvious strategy and it may well be effective against many many teams.

[Mofra]

Weightman, Scott and Archie make good crumbers , in my opinion I think Jamarra and Naughton are good at it too if they don’t go up together , both have great ground ball skill . Extremely impressed with Scott’s work and positioning yesterday . Under rated.
Stupidly, Darcy isn't quick but he's surprisingly good below the knees. He's a freak. Thinks very fast to make up for his height when pouncing on the ground ball

[Dazza]

I wasn't sure until seeing it yesterday. Think it night work for us. Jamarra and Naughton are agile and quick enough to pressure on the way out.

Having English plonked in the middle of the ground certainly helps our chances of intercepting the ball on the way out too.

We'll probably have to set up a little different in the wet I'd imagine.

[ledge]

Stupidly, Darcy isn't quick but he's surprisingly good below the knees. He's a freak. Thinks very fast to make up for his height when pouncing on the ground ball

I should have put Darcy in that list . He is quick with handball and great 360 vision.

[azabob]

Weightman, Scott and Archie make good crumbers , in my opinion I think Jamarra and Naughton are good at it too if they don’t go up together , both have great ground ball skill . Extremely impressed with Scott’s work and positioning yesterday . Under rated.

Weightman isn't a crumber; perhaps he should be but currently he is not. I'd also put Scott in that basket.

Team balance wise A.Jones makes more sense than Weightman but I can't see the MC doing that.

[bornadog]

Kane Cornes assessment and ranking of what he took out from practise matches


1 - The Dinosaur Dogs

Any skepticism that the Dinosaur Dogs couldn’t play together was put to bed on Saturday.


Somehow it just worked, granted it was against North Melbourne who were not that strong. The chemistry and synergy they had and the positioning of the forwards worked.


Jamarra Ugle-Hagan and Aaron Naughton roamed freely and presented to the logos and used their athleticism and speed, while Rory Lobb and Sam Darcy can play closer to goal. Rarely did they get in each other's way.


Darcy's courage in the air is something we're going to be talking about this year. He's perhaps the most unique player in AFL history. Has there ever been a 208cm forward or swing position player like him? I can't think of one.


The bonus is Lobb doing the forward-half ruck work allowing Tim English to play behind the ball. It looked scary.

[Grantysghost]

Weightman isn't a crumber; perhaps he should be but currently he is not. I'd also put Scott in that basket.

Team balance wise A.Jones makes more sense than Weightman but I can't see the MC doing that.

Have to say I really loved seeing the two indigenous boys roaming our forward line on Saturday.

I think Weightman gets first crack if he's right, Jones maybe as super sub.

[bornadog]

Weightman isn't a crumber

Cody can crumb and does sometimes and hopefully he stays down more and feeds off the big boys.

[Happy Days]

Cody might not be a natural crumber but he’s a phenomenal pressure player, which is absolutely vital to have if this four tall structure is going to work.

I know that in theory there’s going to be a ton of ground balls to get to, but I think it’s established now that repeat entries and forward stoppages, both generated through pressure and ball retention, are more consistent avenues to scores.

[Go_Dogs]

Kane Cornes in the money. Awesome.

[azabob]

Cody can crumb and does sometimes and hopefully he stays down more and feeds off the big boys.

Going back to your post in another thread did Cody say that to you or on stage?

[bornadog]

Going back to your post in another thread did Cody say that to you or on stage?

On stage. Johnno was interviewing him and mentioned the talls and he said he will have to stay down in future.

Good opportunity for him if he follows through.

[DISHLICKERS]

With potentially having 3 or 4 tall players in our forward line, how important does the role of the small/medium forward become both for crumbing and applying pressure.

The success of our forward line may hang on how we go about the small/medium sized forwards.

The role becomes very important.

[The Doctor]

With potentially having 3 or 4 tall players in our forward line, how important does the role of the small/medium forward become both for crumbing and applying pressure.

The success of our forward line may hang on how we go about the small/medium sized forwards.

The role becomes very important.

Very good point DL.

I have felt for a long time now we lack in the small forward area of our list. In the absence of it perhaps our coaching staff have recognised this as a potential weakness. This could be why we have seen this pre-season the deployment of Arty Jones in the forward half and the clever use of Anthony Scott as a wingman/half forward.

[doggies ftw]

There’s going to be enormous opportunities for smalls at ground level, we haven’t seen Cody yet this preseason but he will excel here. He is a natural crumber and our best pressure player but yes we know he’s a bit too eager to try and sit on blokes heads. It’s just a mindset thing for him though, I think it will start to sink in as he realises he’s more chance of cleaning up at ground level then outmarking Darcy & Lobb etc and then it will start to become first instinct.

I had West as my next picked but he’s still obviously not doing all he needs to be doing from a coaches POV, and will have to work his way in through the VFL I suspect, I’m a big fan though. McLean is a great defensive player and tackler but lacking a touch of pace - I guess the same could be said for Cody that they’re both brilliant tacklers but not necessarily the quickest so I think there has to be one of JJ or Jones in the mix, JJ is super important for us so I just want him to get his body right and I’d go Jones up front, his aggression and speed is great and will have an impact up there.

For us all we have to do when the ball hits the ground from our 4 talls is lock the ball in long enough for our midfield to get forward and clog it up. Then you have the likes of Libba, Bont & Macrae holding it in and working their magic from stoppages. But we just need to be able to hold it up until they arrive for reinforcement. The good thing is Naughty especially, and Marra are as good as it gets at following up their own work at ground level and Lobb/Darcy for their heights aren’t exactly dinosaurs. I don’t think you can just throw any 4 talls forward of the ball and have it work but for this mix I’m adamant it will work.

[The bulldog tragician]

Tackles inside 50 are an area where Cody could improve. Last year he averaged 1.9. Naughton has 2.1, and is ranked 12th highest for tackles inside 50, while Kosy Pickett (boo) has 2.7.

(Hey, look at me doing a stats analysis. For the first and most likely last time).

[Stevo]

There’s going to be enormous opportunities for smalls at ground level, we haven’t seen Cody yet this preseason but he will excel here. He is a natural crumber and our best pressure player but yes we know he’s a bit too eager to try and sit on blokes heads. It’s just a mindset thing for him though, I think it will start to sink in as he realises he’s more chance of cleaning up at ground level then outmarking Darcy & Lobb etc and then it will start to become first instinct.

I had West as my next picked but he’s still obviously not doing all he needs to be doing from a coaches POV, and will have to work his way in through the VFL I suspect, I’m a big fan though. McLean is a great defensive player and tackler but lacking a touch of pace - I guess the same could be said for Cody that they’re both brilliant tacklers but not necessarily the quickest so I think there has to be one of JJ or Jones in the mix, JJ is super important for us so I just want him to get his body right and I’d go Jones up front, his aggression and speed is great and will have an impact up there.

For us all we have to do when the ball hits the ground from our 4 talls is lock the ball in long enough for our midfield to get forward and clog it up. Then you have the likes of Libba, Bont & Macrae holding it in and working their magic from stoppages. But we just need to be able to hold it up until they arrive for reinforcement. The good thing is Naughty especially, and Marra are as good as it gets at following up their own work at ground level and Lobb/Darcy for their heights aren’t exactly dinosaurs. I don’t think you can just throw any 4 talls forward of the ball and have it work but for this mix I’m adamant it will work.

Great post and many good observations. Im all for letting Cody make his own decisions. If he flies for marks, crumbs off the talls or has a run in the midfield we should encourage him to go with his instincts and only make adjustments if its causing us a problem.

[Stevo]

Tackles inside 50 are an area where Cody could improve. Last year he averaged 1.9. Naughton has 2.1, and is ranked 12th highest for tackles inside 50, while Kosy Pickett (boo) has 2.7.

(Hey, look at me doing a stats analysis. For the first and most likely last time).

Keep em coming. Kossie is a special player in the way he provides so much pressure and how he can kick goals.

[doggies ftw]

Great post and many good observations. Im all for letting Cody make his own decisions. If he flies for marks, crumbs off the talls or has a run in the midfield we should encourage him to go with his instincts and only make adjustments if its causing us a problem.

Yeah 100% agree, he’s a very instinctual player and I wouldn’t want to damper that, nor can I imagine Bev trying to damper that either. But I think he does need to be a little bit more aware of when he flies and when he stays down, if he’s the genuine target of the footy and/or one out then sure sit on the blokes head and attempt the mark but a little bit too often he was flying in the way of Naughty last year and we just can’t have that in an even taller forward line this year.

He’s a smart player though so I expect him to figure it out, like I mentioned above I think his mindset will shift naturally after he realises that there’s more opportunity for him at ground level than aerially. He is a hungry small forward after all so I’m sure he’ll do whatever’s in his best interest to kick as many goals as possible!

[bornadog]

Beveridge: We’ll continue with tall attack (https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/1279428/beveridge-we-ll-continue-with-tall-attack)

Western Bulldogs coach Luke Beveridge says the team is likely to continue stacking the forward-line with height, as seen in Saturday’s practice match against North Melbourne.

A quartet of talls, consisting of Aaron Naughton, Rory Lobb, Jamarra Ugle-Hagan and Sam Darcy combined for 10 goals in the pre-season hit-out.

Beveridge said while he was impressed by the four players’ output, Darcy in particular might be swung forward or back depending on what is required of the team.

“We don’t mind the look of those boys playing together as they did on the weekend,” Beveridge told Garry Lyon and Tim Watson on the Bulldogs’ annual SEN Membership Day.

“Where we can trouble the opposition, absolutely (we will) but Sam as a young man is still at that stage where playing a full four quarters of AFL is within his reach - we’ve got to look after him.

“We’ve got to temper his ground-time, and that’s difficult to do when you’re playing as a key defender. If you’re playing as a key forward, you can regulate that game-time a little bit easier.

“Sam has got enormous courage as you would’ve seen, and his will to compete in the air is quite outstanding...while he can play at both ends and is absolutely willing to do so, it probably comes down to the balance of our team and where we feel we can get an advantage.”

Overall, Beveridge was pleased with his side’s performance against North Melbourne, as the group looks ahead to the season proper next Saturday night.

“We went in (to the practice match) wanting to treat it like a full rehearsal – it was a hot day, and we only planned on bringing Josh Bruce on as that definite substitute opportunity to test ourselves with our interchange as we lead into our round one game against Melbourne,” he said.

“We were probably outplayed a bit in the last quarter – North Melbourne had six interchange going, and 12 more they could rotate so our guys probably fatigued a little bit after three-quarter time.


“As much as we have reasons for it, we don’t make excuses. By and large, there were some positive signs.”

[1eyedog]

Keep em coming. Kossie is a special player in the way he provides so much pressure and how he can kick goals.

Kossie is geat I absolutely hate him.

[Mofra]

Shades of 2017 Richmond?
If we recall their forwardline, they actually started playing 'pressure players' ahead of 'talented players' and it helped them enormously.
I suspect we're going to have a player (it was Arty last week) whose who game is to sit on the opposition rebounder as plan A, B & C. The fact that Arty kicked a couple of goals is irrelevant, it was his defensive pressure which helped the team the most.

Vandermeer led the comp in 'repeat sprints' and pressure acts when he played for a time. I suspect he and JJ are the two who get the gig during the season. It stops the outlet when the ball hits the ground.

Notably, the worst ground-ball player of the 'big 4' (Lobb) actually had a couple of decent moments when the ball hit the deck. We know Naughts and Marra are quick, and if anyone saw Darcy kick the (real) VFL goal of the year last year there won't be any concerns with his efforts there either.

[jeemak]

Kossie is geat I absolutely hate him.

He's exactly how your forward pocket should be - loveable to you, hate-able in the extreme to others.

I hate him and hope he cops at least one in the balls Saturday week.

[jeemak]

Shades of 2017 Richmond?
If we recall their forwardline, they actually started playing 'pressure players' ahead of 'talented players' and it helped them enormously.
I suspect we're going to have a player (it was Arty last week) whose who game is to sit on the opposition rebounder as plan A, B & C. The fact that Arty kicked a couple of goals is irrelevant, it was his defensive pressure which helped the team the most.

Vandermeer led the comp in 'repeat sprints' and pressure acts when he played for a time. I suspect he and JJ are the two who get the gig during the season. It stops the outlet when the ball hits the ground.

Notably, the worst ground-ball player of the 'big 4' (Lobb) actually had a couple of decent moments when the ball hit the deck. We know Naughts and Marra are quick, and if anyone saw Darcy kick the (real) VFL goal of the year last year there won't be any concerns with his efforts there either.

I understand the sentiment, but I do have a bit of a problem with this type of statement. Two goals is two goals and kicking goals is important. Being able to consistently apply pressure, run back and forth, get to the feet of the contest are permission to play things a role player of that sort needs to do, but kicking goals is how the good ones become super valuable to a team and differentiate themselves from the average ones.

A team structure sticking together is dynamite, a small forward that can help facilitate that but also nail one or two a game is whatever dynamite to the power of sick is. The compounding impact is huge, because the defencive part becomes easier when a forward is dangerous and needs to be watched, as it changes the opposition's plans.

[1eyedog]

I understand the sentiment, but I do have a bit of a problem with this type of statement. Two goals is two goals and kicking goals is important. Being able to consistently apply pressure, run back and forth, get to the feet of the contest are permission to play things a role player of that sort needs to do, but kicking goals is how the good ones become super valuable to a team and differentiate themselves from the average ones.

A team structure sticking together is dynamite, a small forward that can help facilitate that but also nail one or two a game is whatever dynamite to the power of sick is. The compounding impact is huge, because the defencive part becomes easier when a forward is dangerous and needs to be watched, as it changes the opposition's plans.

Agreed. I think you can find a dozen quick pressure players in the VFL who can run and tackle over the course of four quarters. Can't find as many who can do that and kick two goals though. The two goals is everything.

[Mofra]

Agreed. I think you can find a dozen quick pressure players in the VFL who can run and tackle over the course of four quarters. Can't find as many who can do that and kick two goals though. The two goals is everything.
His primary role is that defensive pressure though - causing multiple goals via locking the ball into out F50 is worth more than kicking a couple himself (and they were against North).

[1eyedog]

His primary role as a small forward is to kick goals first and apply pressure second if he can't get it. All I'm saying is that I place higher emphasis on a Jones / Weightman type being able to hit the scoreboard than applying pressure when the opposition has it. What's more important three goals or five pressure acts in D50?

Both players are good defensively that's true but they're both also really dangerous around goals and that's something we need and we've lacked. It needs to be the focus. I'm not saying scoring is easy but I feel we'll get so many more opportunities if they focus on being in the right spots under Naughton, Darcy, Lobb, Marra and playing their role. I'm more excited by this than any perceived opportunities we'll get through defensive turnovers off the back their pressure acts, although I admit that they may provide scoring opportunites in this space as well.

[Mofra]

His primary role as a small forward is to kick goals first and apply pressure second if he can't get it.
In general, that's what a small forward's role is.
I disagree with last week's role for Arty, when you consider he was playing a negating role at high HF. We do have precedent in playing that role - VDM has done similar roles, Hannan seemed to spend time blocking for Naughton, and JJ has also played that high, defensive forward/link role.
Going back further we even employed Zaine Cordy as a defensive forward a number of times to try and negate the opposition interceptor.

[bornadog]

His primary role as a small forward is to kick goals first and apply pressure second if he can't get it. All I'm saying is that I place higher emphasis on a Jones / Weightman type being able to hit the scoreboard than applying pressure when the opposition has it. What's more important three goals or five pressure acts in D50?

Both players are good defensively that's true but they're both also really dangerous around goals and that's something we need and we've lacked. It needs to be the focus. I'm not saying scoring is easy but I feel we'll get so many more opportunities if they focus on being in the right spots under Naughton, Darcy, Lobb, Marra and playing their role. I'm more excited by this than any perceived opportunities we'll get through defensive turnovers off the back their pressure acts, although I admit that they may provide scoring opportunites in this space as well.

GG has stepped into the conversion

Those pressure acts :D

[Mofra]

GG has stepped into the conversion

Those pressure acts :D
Alex Sexton is a gun, goal-kicking small forward who gets dropped for his lack of pressure game when the Suns don't have the ball.
It's pretty big for coaches

[jazzadogs]

The measure of a small forward for me would be

Number of goals created (goals kicked + direct score assists + pressure acts leading to turnovers) minus number of opposition scores originating from defensive 50 (ie how many times did we let them walk the ball out).

I don't think one counts more or less than the other. If Cody Weightman finished a game with 5 direct goal assists, that would be as valuable to the team as him kicking five goals personally.

[jazzadogs]

Chat GPT could be a politician with this response about whether the four headed monster will be successful.

"I cannot predict the future and I do not have access to current team strategies or player abilities. However, the success of playing four tall forwards would depend on multiple factors such as the team's overall game plan, opponent strategies, and the individual performances of the players involved. The decision to play four tall forwards would also depend on the team's current roster and available options on the bench. Ultimately, the success of this strategy would need to be evaluated on a game-by-game basis."

[Axe Man]

How Bont's role will change as big Dogs are unleashed (https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/1280973/how-bont-s-role-will-change-as-big-dogs-are-unleashed)

Marcus Bontempelli is keen to see the Bulldogs' super-sized forward line in action.

Prepare to face every ace in the pack.

The Western Bulldogs are ready to unleash a super-sized four-prong tall forward line throughout the season, featuring each and every one of the club's multi-skilled and highly talented key-position players in attack.

Experienced new recruit Rory Lobb, contested marking specialist Aaron Naughton and wonderkids Jamarra Ugle-Hagan and Sam Darcy proved in last Saturday's practice match win over North Melbourne they can work together. Prepare to see more of it.

Lobb and Darcy stand at well over 200cm, while Naughton and Ugle-Hagan aren't far beneath that. All four have quickly become renowned as some of the competition's most athletic and long-limbed key forwards going around.

Individually, they could just about be the primary key-position talents for many sides across the League. But, together, Western Bulldogs captain Marcus Bontempelli believes they're ready to form one of the most lethal attacking quartets in the AFL.

Against the Kangaroos, they combined for 10 goals and provided an intimidating taste of their collective ability to launch for high balls and find themselves in dangerous forward-half positions.

While many have privately and publicly pondered 'how tall is too tall?', the Bulldogs aren't willing to put a limit on size. Ahead of a blockbuster round one encounter against Melbourne, they instead appear destined to play all four.

"I think with the nature of being able to shift one of them, particularly Sam Darcy, into the backline at different points, then I think there's some flexibility in that," Bontempelli told AFL.com.au.

"His ability to meet the ball at its highest point, whether it's at the front-end of the ground or the back-end, I think that will be really valuable. I think that gives us a great deal of flexibility.

"Right now, we've only had a small sample size from pre-season to look at it. But there will be a bit of finding out as we get into the early parts of the season, in terms of how it looks and how it lasts."

Bontempelli starred in the club's 58-point practice match victory over North Melbourne, relishing the ability to spot-up his new-look forward line to finish with 27 disposals, 10 clearances and two goals.

With a game-high 12 score involvements as well, Bontempelli was blessed with multiple options every time he looked into his attack. Naughton kicked four goals, Ugle-Hagan added three, Darcy kicked two, while Lobb chipped in with one.

Even he admits the biggest challenge whenever he streams from a stoppage will be selecting which of his key forward options he kicks to, saying their ability to work in tandem is still being ironed out.

"The challenge will be not doing it every time," Bontempelli laughed.

"You don't want to fall into a rhythm of just sending the ball long to our key talls. They want it in there, that's for sure. They are all good marking players on the lead or in the air in a pack.

"There's probably a little bit for them to work through, in terms of them working together nicely. We don't want them spoiling each other at different points, but the good thing is that one of them wants it. That's probably the key."

Bontempelli, himself standing at 194cm, is one of the tallest midfielders in the League and can add yet more height and firepower to the Western Bulldogs' intriguing and exciting attack this year.

But the talented 27-year-old instead spent noticeably more time in the midfield throughout the club's pre-season matches, suggesting the abundance of forward options will mean longer periods playing out of the centre this year.

"I probably will (spend more time as a midfielder)," Bontempelli said.

"I think the nature of the height there … at any one time, one of them will probably be off the ground, so there will really only be three together and not four at all times. Obviously, there's also Tim English in the ruck.

"It'll mostly be about where you feel you can get an advantage. If it means spending more time around the ball to support our stoppage and our structure up the field, then I think that's important.

"It's not a height thing, it's more about how we continue to make it difficult for the opposition to score against us but also for us to score. There will definitely be times where I'm down there and trying to float through and cause havoc, but it won't be through necessity. It'll be more through using the strengths that we've got."

Bontempelli's midfield time will also likely increase following the departure of reigning best and fairest and former premiership player Josh Dunkley, who was traded to Brisbane last October.

Although the club's captain believes there will be elements of the side's midfield that will need to improve to compensate for Dunkley's defection, he said the quality and depth in that area of the field remains strong.

"Growth out of Bailey Smith and a few others – we've seen Caleb Daniel spend a bit more time inside and Toby McLean and Anthony Scott as well – these types of players are very good footballers and we know we can cover with them," Bontempelli said.

"It's not a question of depth, I think we've got enough midfielders within the team. It's more about how we cover some of the really important defensive stuff that Josh did. He was a mainstay and a staple from a defensive aspect with his ability to get back and support our backline through his tackling and pressure.

"I think it's one place where we're pretty well prepared to cover for him. But he's a great player and he's going to be a tough one to instantly recoup from. We'll all probably have to spread the load a bit."

[1eyedog]

The measure of a small forward for me would be

Number of goals created (goals kicked + direct score assists + pressure acts leading to turnovers) minus number of opposition scores originating from defensive 50 (ie how many times did we let them walk the ball out).

I don't think one counts more or less than the other. If Cody Weightman finished a game with 5 direct goal assists, that would be as valuable to the team as him kicking five goals personally.

Are you saying the measure of a small forward is by comparing direct goals kicked and direct goal assists with opposition scores out of D50?

For me that's too coarse-grained. I feel the opposition score out of D50 measure is weighted way too high. You can't imply a small forward isn't being effective based on the opposition being able to generate scoring opportunities from D50 there are way too many variables that may or may not lead to scoring opportunities.

Our small forwards will be rightly judged on goals kicked and score assists but as I mentioned there will be opportunities off the back off defensive pressure acts as well. There just won't be as many. Defenders are good. Really good at getting a ball out when they have it.

If you can find a small forward that can do all of this at a high level though, great!

[jazzadogs]

Are you saying the measure of a small forward is by comparing direct goals kicked and direct goal assists with opposition scores out of D50?

For me that's too coarse-grained. I feel the opposition score out of D50 measure is weighted way too high. You can't imply a small forward isn't being effective based on the opposition being able to generate scoring opportunities from D50 there are way too many variables that may or may not lead to scoring opportunities.

Our small forwards will be rightly judged on goals kicked and score assists but as I mentioned there will be opportunities off the back off defensive pressure acts as well. There just won't be as many. Defenders are good. Really good at getting a ball out when they have it.

If you can find a small forward that can do all of this at a high level though, great!

Fair enough re: Oppo scores from d50, though I do think the role of our small forwards MUST be that if the opposition get the ball in defence, their disposal is pressured. Our entire defensive structure is based off pressured opposition disposal - as soon as they have time to hit a target, the good teams can cut us open. Naughton is great with his forward pressure, but there is no doubt that teams will try to run off Lobb/Darcy/Marra and our smalls will have a huge role in negating that. If their pressure creates a turnover and repeat inside 50, that is huge for our side. Maybe instead of score chains starting in d50, it's 'number of uncontested marks from rebound 50s'.

The main thing for me though is the total goals created - it's not just the number they kick themselves. If Arthur Jones kicks 3 goals (2x Joe the goose in the goalsquare, 1x uncontested mark from a turnover) with no other score assists and 1 tackle inside 50, vs Vandermeer who hasn't kicked a goal but had 5 score assists and 5 tackles inside 50, who has had the better game?

The Alex Sexton example is a great one - he gets dropped while *I don't know any other suns small forwards* someone who kicked less goals but applied more pressure stays in the side.

[1eyedog]

Fair enough re: Oppo scores from d50, though I do think the role of our small forwards MUST be that if the opposition get the ball in defence, their disposal is pressured. Our entire defensive structure is based off pressured opposition disposal - as soon as they have time to hit a target, the good teams can cut us open. Naughton is great with his forward pressure, but there is no doubt that teams will try to run off Lobb/Darcy/Marra and our smalls will have a huge role in negating that. If their pressure creates a turnover and repeat inside 50, that is huge for our side. Maybe instead of score chains starting in d50, it's 'number of uncontested marks from rebound 50s'.

The main thing for me though is the total goals created - it's not just the number they kick themselves. If Arthur Jones kicks 3 goals (2x Joe the goose in the goalsquare, 1x uncontested mark from a turnover) with no other score assists and 1 tackle inside 50, vs Vandermeer who hasn't kicked a goal but had 5 score assists and 5 tackles inside 50, who has had the better game?

The Alex Sexton example is a great one - he gets dropped while *I don't know any other suns small forwards* someone who kicked less goals but applied more pressure stays in the side.

Agree with all of this and VDM has the more impactful game for sure.

[Mofra]

I just love that we're trying something different to standard AFL orthodoxy.
The Windies were mad for bringing in 4 quicks to their test team in the 70s, until it worked. I see parallels.

If it even remotely works some weeks, we've just killed the trade market for the next decade. Half-decent spuds will be getting $500k contracts on the back of a scarcity of KPFs... and IF 4 actually works (I still think 3 & an 'everything' player is ideal) where the hell will we get another KPF/swingman tall from?

[Jordan Croft coughs]

Oh, nevermind...

[DOG GOD]

The plan for the past 5-6 years has been to kick bombs to the hot spot and hope Naughts sits on someone's head... we've added more talls now so I guess that gives us a better chance of marking it, doesn't it?
They’ll all still fly for the one mark getting in each others way and the defence will most likely pick it up and run it away while 2-4 doggies fwds are laying on the ground.

[Happy Days]

They’ll all still fly for the one mark getting in each others way and the defence will most likely pick it up and run it away while 2-4 doggies fwds are laying on the ground.

Or it could be fun.

[bornadog]

They’ll all still fly for the one mark getting in each others way and the defence will most likely pick it up and run it away while 2-4 doggies fwds are laying on the ground.

Looking at the practice match and intra clubs, they are not doing this. They are working well together.

[DOG GOD]

Looking at the practice match and intra clubs, they are not doing this. They are working well together.
Let’s hope that continues when the real stuff starts.

[MrMahatma]

All it'll really take is one good quarter where we hit targets and, ideally, hit each one of them and they slot one, and the talk will be off the charts.

There's no doubt that:
a) It's a different approach to what we've done before.
b) The quality (or at least, potential quality) of each tall is key. Just having 4 random tall dudes running around isn't going to do much.
c) We need to judge this in a few ways:
- Marks inside 50
- Goals per inside 50
- Goals from the monster
- Opposition rebounds
- Opposition goals from rebounds

It'll take a little while to learn if it's really working and I do hope we stick with it even if it gets off to a slow start.

[1eyedog]

Bevo is one crazy mofo.

[JanLorMill]

Did anyone apart from Bevo thought this was going to work?

[Mantis]

Might work against North, but Marra and Darcy are just boys.

[chef]

Time to cut a couple of heads off the monster.

[GVGjr]

Lets see his appetite to stick with this although losing Jones might change his thought process.

[angelopetraglia]

I would like to see the four headed monster at Marvel. Perfect marking conditions. Less space to defend on the turnover.

[Boots]

The problem was we assumed the monster had four heads on long, sinewy necks that would let it run rings around its enemies, like some sort of mythical Hydra.

Instead it's one of those poor malformed baby cows with four heads but only one neck, so it's super unbalanced and easy to deal with.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Normally the issue with too many tall forwards is if the ball hits the deck, it's gone the other way in the blink of an eye. Well we have that problem with no tall forwards, and yet somehow with 4 tall we still managed to have 3 of them nowhere near the drop of the ball and nowhere near the best intercepting defender in the comp and the resting ruckman who sticks out like a sore thumb. These guys were playing loose too....what the hell was going on up forward tonight?

[jeemak]

Normally the issue with too many tall forwards is if the ball hits the deck, it's gone the other way in the blink of an eye. Well we have that problem with no tall forwards, and yet somehow with 4 tall we still managed to have 3 of them nowhere near the drop of the ball and nowhere near the best intercepting defender in the comp and the resting ruckman who sticks out like a sore thumb. These guys were playing loose too....what the hell was going on up forward tonight?

It's a really good point.

We looked as ineffective at stopping the intercept game tonight as we might have with only Naughton forward which says to me we had a problem in crowding zones and the footy - which is our go to when we play poorly and don't have our heads in the game.

I don't have an issue with player heights, but what I do have an issue with is where they stand. We need to sort that shit out.

[anfo27]

Doesn't matter what our forward line looks like when you deliver the footy to your forwards like that. Disgraceful really.

[Boots]

Holy shit I'm ropeable

I just read this on AFL.com.au:

"...however Aaron Naughton, Jamarra Ugle-Hagan, Rory Lobb and Sam Darcy were kept to a combined two goals."

What the hell is the point.

[jeemak]

Holy shit I'm ropeable

I just read this on AFL.com.au:

"...however Aaron Naughton, Jamarra Ugle-Hagan, Rory Lobb and Sam Darcy were kept to a combined two goals."

What the hell is the point.

It's upstream. Forwards don't create chances to score, they should just get on the end of what's presented to them.

[Boots]

It's upstream. Forwards don't create chances to score, they should just get on the end of what's presented to them.

For sure - not blaming these guys. Ropeable at how pathetic the output was given all the hype.

[Grantysghost]

Sad part is, the forward entries were bad not necessarily due to Melbourne's pressure.

A lot of them were just poor execution.

I wish we would stop with this super high press, we don't have the leg speed to defend the turn over.

And tempo footy. Melbourne when threatened took back control of the game with possession. Then once they scored loaded up the centre bounce and backed their mids.
It was really a thing of beauty.

Tactics were awful.

[AshMac]

By the middle of the fourth quarter Naughton looked furious with the F50 entries. Don’t blame him. First time I’ve seen that type of body language from him

[Grantysghost]

By the middle of the fourth quarter Naughton looked furious with the F50 entries. Don’t blame him. First time I’ve seen that type of body language from him

Marra even gave Macrae a burst.

He yelled to him to put it out in front not on his head.

Macrae, Bont and Smith are terrible kicks to advantage.

[Go_Dogs]

A few times it was like we looked to find Gawn in our F50 and then kicked it right at him. Weird ploy.

I hope we stick with the four headed monster, maybe not every week, but I think it’s going to work better when we have the right mix of smaller and medium players fit and in form.

[MrMahatma]

Naughton should’ve had 3.
Darcy should’ve had 1.
Marra should’ve had 2, could’ve had 3.
Lobb thought we had a Sunday match.

I’m not sure the fwd line set up is our real issue. Entries were bad. Turn overs off HB were bad and there was very little decent transition to allow our fwds space.

Conversion in front of goal remains terminal.

[bornadog]

Naughton should’ve had 3.
Darcy should’ve had 1.
Marra should’ve had 2, could’ve had 3.
Lobb thought we had a Sunday match.

I’m not sure the fwd line set up is our real issue. Entries were bad. Turn overs off HB were bad and there was very little decent transition to allow our fwds space.

Conversion in front of goal remains terminal.

It's amazing how a few gettable goals can make a difference to a game. Bont and Naughton missing sitters could have changed the game. In the second quarter we had 8 scoring shots for 3 goals. Melbourne had 7 shots for 6 goals. Their confidence was now sky high.

[angelopetraglia]

It's amazing how a few gettable goals can make a difference to a game. Bont and Naughton missing sitters could have changed the game. In the second quarter we had 8 scoring shots for 3 goals. Melbourne had 7 shots for 6 goals. Their confidence was now sky high.

100%. Agree. But it always appears to fall this way for us in the Bevo era outside two golden runs in September. We just never appear to seize our moment and allow the opposition to seize theirs when it really matters.