Western Bulldogs accused of wasting golden era

[GVGjr]

Western Bulldogs accused of wasting golden era (https://www.codesports.com.au/afl/afl-round-18-sydney-defeats-western-bulldogs-7876-keep-slim-finals-chance-alive/news-story/84efe5cdf9f62a3cde51ad1e9de4bb88)

https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/8591fe952004bb678f6e5055f208e249

The Bulldogs loss to Sydney has brought them back to the pack of the battle for finals, but with the depth of talent available to Luke Beveridge, have he and the club missed their window?

Luke Beveridge's Western Bulldogs have been accused of squandering a top-four list as the premiership coach is forced into another rejig of his besieged backline.

The Dogs could be out of the eight by the end of the round after coughing up an inexplicable loss to Sydney despite dominating hit-outs, inside-50s and clearances as Tim English, Aaron Naughton and Marcus Bontempelli ran amok.

Josh Bruce (19 disposals, eight marks) looks set to replace James O'Donnell (concussion) after a strong VFL hitout against Sydney on Friday afternoon, while Rory Lobb (15 disposals, 10 hit-outs) should replace Sam Darcy.

Darcy stayed in Sydney on Thursday night to be assessed after the corked quad bled heavily and was in a knee brace and on crutches out of extra precaution.

The Dogs said his only injury was the corked quad, which saw him subbed out in the third quarter.

He is likely to miss multiple weeks in his latest setback this season alone after a hole in his lung and broken jaw this year and a foot stress fracture that saw his debut delayed last season.

Bailey Smith will have recovered from a flu that saw him missing against Sydney by Monday, when the players return to Whitten Oval, and will play against the Dons.

But his diminishing returns pushed to half forward are representative of a team that is not quite as good as the sum of its parts.

The club's chief executive Ameet Bains said on July 1 the club had the makings of a top-four list, adamant it was stacked with talent.

Yeah we do. They haven't all played consistently at the level but if you look at the nucleus of that team Tim, Marcus, a few other players, they are going as well as anyone in the competition. You build a side around that.

But leading analyst David King wondered after the loss whether the Dogs were frittering away their talent in a year where they would have to replicate their 2016 heroics to win the flag.

Let's cut to the chase. They have got one of the games greatest players for the last decade in their team, they are well supported forward of centre with good talls, got a good system, been around the mark for a couple of years now,? he told FoxFooty.

Are they frittering away a great list? A great opportunity because they could find themselves out of the eight after round 18. You wouldn't have thought that would have been the case.

They are hard to win and they bucked the trend in 2016 but the only way to win them is finish top four and they haven?t done that and how they haven?t done that no one knows?

They are well led by the captain. Their midfield is super strong, they have a high handball game which seems to work and they can't defend. Without Liam Jones down there they looked a little rudderless. I don't have the answer and I don't know if Luke has the answer of their hierarchy but this is a top four list at minimum.

[bulldogtragic]

With the talent we’ve had in Bevo’s tenure it’s a fair argument. Never finished top 4. Only ever won finals in two of finals campaigns going straight out on most occasions. Choked top 4 in 2021. Choked the GF later on. Choked in the EF last last. Was third on the live ladder in the first quarter vs GCS. Now face choking again and missing finals altogether. Lost Stringer, Dahl, Hunter, Adams, Dunkley and feels like Smith could be next, and forced out others getting multi year deals elsewhere like Roughy, Campbell, Lippa, Young and soon Sweet & Buku. Stuck with philosophies that haven’t really worked.

We’ve had a great amount of talent. I agree with King. I don’t know how we have not had ongoing success. And I think the trend line is to go into a leaner period as retirements start kicking in (Keath, Bruce, Duryea and later Libba, Macrae, Treloar and Bont winds down. While our development struggles with guys like West & Garcia and skills font improve like goal kicking. Assuming we keep our big name players too.

It it what it is. We live by the sword of Bevo and we die by it too.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Bloody hell King always wants to whack us. Yes we have a top 4 list but with injuries to key players we have hit a bump in the road. Don’t write us off as when it clicks we are a super outfit what served it upto the inform Pies with a couple of our leaders out of the back 6.

We will be ok but once again we don’t need to sell headlines.

[bornadog]

Bloody hell King always wants to whack us. Yes we have a top 4 list but with injuries to key players we have hit a bump in the road. Don’t write us off as when it clicks we are a super outfit what served it upto the inform Pies with a couple of our leaders out of the back 6.

We will be ok but once again we don’t need to sell headlines.

Love your positive posts

[Grantysghost]

Love your positive posts

Would you like someone walking down the street smiling for no reason?
I find it freaky!

Kidding of course positive is good

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Love your positive posts

Honestly I think we really are a top 4 side. We can mix it with anyone. The only concern I have is between the ears of the 22 each week

[GVGjr]

Honestly I think we really are a top 4 side. We can mix it with anyone. The only concern I have is between the ears of the 22 each week

You're right we have a strong list, where we might differ is the impact on what injuries are having to our results.
Essentially I think it's a reasonable question for the media to be asking about our performances.

[GVGjr]

With the talent we’ve had in Bevo’s tenure it’s a fair argument. Never finished top 4. Only ever won finals in two of finals campaigns going straight out on most occasions. Choked top 4 in 2021. Choked the GF later on. Choked in the EF last last. Was third on the live ladder in the first quarter vs GCS. Now face choking again and missing finals altogether. Lost Stringer, Dahl, Hunter, Adams, Dunkley and feels like Smith could be next, and forced out others getting multi year deals elsewhere like Roughy, Campbell, Lippa, Young and soon Sweet & Buku. Stuck with philosophies that haven’t really worked.



The concern is that while we have had 2 GF runs on top of never finishing in the top four at the end of the H&A season we haven't won a single final in any other year outside of those 2 GF runs.

The list is strong enough so is it our game day strategy? Are we not fit enough? or do we have too many players that can't perform well enough at the pointy end of the season?

This is what the media is speculating on.

[bulldogtragic]

The concern is that while we have had 2 GF runs on top of never finishing in the top four at the end of the H&A season we haven't won a single final in any other year outside of those 2 GF runs.

The list is strong enough so is it our game day strategy? Are we not fit enough? or do we have too many players that can't perform well enough at the pointy end of the season?

This is what the media is speculating on.

And they are absolutely fair questions. With the talent we have had we should’ve won more, including finals. Getting those answers, fixing them and improving is how we go about achieving success. I find it odd that there’s not more self reflection on how to improve and that any critical media is negative. Some of it is BS. But we have not had the success we should have this era. We can try to work out why and correct it. Or just think things will turn around because that’s would we would love to see happen. Even if it’s somewhat divorced from reality.

[bulldogtragic]

Honestly I think we really are a top 4 side. We can mix it with anyone. The only concern I have is between the ears of the 22 each week

We are right now 9th. Two wins and over 20% of off fourth spot.

Why aren’t we top four now?

[jeemak]

We lack depth, have no wings, lack specialist small to mid-sized forwards and can't get our best defence on the park yet we apparently should be a top four lock.

Each year I hear the same thing, and then at the same time see the list of deficiencies across the list trotted out. And at the end of it all we blame the coach.

Our issues may include the coach but the constant overlooking of our clear deficiencies in personnel drives me nuts.

[EasternWest]

We lack depth, have no wings, lack specialist small to mid-sized forwards and can't get our best defence on the park yet we apparently should be a top four lock.

Each year I hear the same thing, and then at the same time see the list of deficiencies across the list trotted out. And at the end of it all we blame the coach.

Our issues may include the coach but the constant overlooking of our clear deficiencies in personnel drives me nuts.

But isn't the coach at least partly responsible for the clear deficiencies in our list?

[Grantysghost]

But isn't the coach at least partly responsible for the clear deficiencies in our list?

Surely yes. It's a team. Players and coaches are responsible for outcomes.

[jeemak]

But isn't the coach at least partly responsible for the clear deficiencies in our list?

Probably. The list manager might be as well, right?

But my point isn't about whose fault it is, my point is everyone can identify what is wrong with the list but ignores it and just says we should be top four because we have some promising forwards and Naughton, some midfielders who on paper are great but can't really defend or choose not to, and some defenders who can hit targets unless they decide to shit themselves.

But we should be a lock for top four.

[whythelongface]

We lack depth, have no wings, lack specialist small to mid-sized forwards and can't get our best defence on the park yet we apparently should be a top four lock.

Each year I hear the same thing, and then at the same time see the list of deficiencies across the list trotted out. And at the end of it all we blame the coach.

Our issues may include the coach but the constant overlooking of our clear deficiencies in personnel drives me nuts.

This. Whilst we have top end talent our list lacks quality depth. Is there similar scrutiny of other clubs? I mean Sydney have had talent to burn but have not won a flag. They too have arguably had imbalanced lists. You not only need that top end talent but also quality depth across the board. On top of that you need also need players that have different skill sets. I don’t believe we have or have had both over the years. What we do have now is a cord of very talented KP youngsters- the key is to now build on this and create a window of opportunity whilst Bont, Treloar, Dale etc are still near the top of their game.

I get the article but it is flawed as it doesn’t take a deep dive into our list over the years to understand that our list hasn’t been as good as people think. The coach does need to take responsibility for some of our list inadequacies. Hopefully we can take advantage of our current talented KP depth.

[GVGjr]

We lack depth, have no wings, lack specialist small to mid-sized forwards and can't get our best defence on the park yet we apparently should be a top four lock.

Each year I hear the same thing, and then at the same time see the list of deficiencies across the list trotted out. And at the end of it all we blame the coach.

Our issues may include the coach but the constant overlooking of our clear deficiencies in personnel drives me nuts.

The club must rate the list as a strong one if you consider:
We chased 2 x 30yo players during the trade period and added 3 youngsters via the draft
We added Baker on the cheap, O'Donnell with some shrewd maneuvering and Poulter at the MSD draft

That sort of list management indicates that from the clubs perspective we just needed to add some key position depth.
A lot of clubs over rate their list and perhaps we did as well which is okay but I can certainly understand why some in the media believe we under-performing and why they're now asking the questions.

I don't know why we haven't quite measure up and it could be the fact that we trained at Skinner and struggled with that or we haven't got the the right set-up in our football department or even that we are missing Dunkley and Hunter more than we care to say but we had bigger expectations and have fallen a bit short so far. It could also be our team selections.

Finding out what reasons might be behind it is an important part to plan for next year.

[jeemak]

The club must rate the list as a strong one if you consider:
We chased 2 x 30yo players during the trade period and added 3 youngsters via the draft
We added Baker on the cheap, O'Donnell with some shrewd maneuvering and Poulter at the MSD draft

That sort of list management indicates that from the clubs perspective we just needed to add some key position depth.
A lot of clubs over rate their list and perhaps we did as well which is okay but I can certainly understand why some in the media believe we under-performing and why they're now asking the questions.

I don't know why we haven't quite measure up and it could be the fact that we trained at Skinner and struggled with that or we haven't got the the right set-up in our football department or even that we are missing Dunkley and Hunter more than we care to say but we had bigger expectations and have fallen a bit short so far. It could also be our team selections.

Finding out what reasons might be behind it is an important part to plan for next year.

We possibly overrate our list, sure. But if the club like the fans are hungry for top four immediately would hitting the draft have changed our position today? Any drafting to impact today would have to have been done prior to 2022.

Which of our players who could have secured valuable trades would you have been willing to part with at the end of last year? We already lost Dunkley to improve our draft hand and we had to part with Hunter on the cheap, because well, he was risky proposition for anyone taking him on.

So given we needed to prioritise drafting a defencer which we did, and needed to bring in best available talent thereafter in specific roles, we didn't have a lot of collateral to trade with. Thus, we ended up with who we ended up with, knowing that we needed a second ruck to support Tim.

Whether we overrated the list or didn't, not sure what other levers could have been pulled to materially change things for the better unless we were prepared to part with a player capable of securing quality, rather than spare parts.

[EasternWest]

Probably. The list manager might be as well, right?

But my point isn't about whose fault it is, my point is everyone can identify what is wrong with the list but ignores it and just says we should be top four because we have some promising forwards and Naughton, some midfielders who on paper are great but can't really defend or choose not to, and some defenders who can hit targets unless they decide to shit themselves.

But we should be a lock for top four.

Yes.

[bulldogtragic]

Yes.

Double yes. Finish the job in two of the games against Port at Port, GCS &/or Sydney and beat a Geelong VFL side and we are a game in the top four. Not outrageously large expectations.

[jeemak]

Double yes. Finish the job in two of the games against Port at Port, GCS &/or Sydney and beat a Geelong VFL side and we are a game in the top four. Not outrageously large expectations.

Except the midfielders who can't or won't defend didn't defend, and the defencive personnel that aren't up to scratch got exposed. Our flanks and wingers couldn't handle or use the ball properly meaning we wasted opportunities, and our forwards who can sometimes kick straight but don't often didn't convert. So we didn't win and aren't top four.

[Grantysghost]

Except the midfielders who can't or won't defend didn't defend, and the defencive personnel that isn't up to scratch got exposed. So we didn't win and aren't top four.

I notice you mention this a lot Jee. Are we really that bad at defending from our mids?
I get the GF, however Melbourne were pretty unstoppable when on that year.

Guess I'm asking by what metric you measure this rather than any disagreement as I'm not sure.

[jeemak]

I notice you mention this a lot Jee. Are we really that bad at defending from our mids?
I get the GF, however Melbourne were pretty unstoppable when on that year.

Guess I'm asking by what metric you measure this rather than any disagreement as I'm not sure.

We seem to be all or nothing at the source and in transition, and it exposes us - particularly the former. The forward running of the opposition and subsequent exit from stoppages often gets us (see the Collingwood game).

[Grantysghost]

We seem to be all or nothing at the source and in transition, and it exposes us - particularly the former. The forward running of the opposition and subsequent exit from stoppages often gets us (see the Collingwood game).

I watch them warm up most games and they always have the mids together with different colour vests practising both parts.
They seem to know what to do....
Its frustrating we can't seem to string things together.
Connection bw mid and forward is a big issue I see.

Caleb in there makes sense so the coaches are aware as you say.

I don't think it's all coaches / game plan or all list. It's a mix, things just aren't clicking.
Richards, JJ and Jones being injured and as you mentioned poor wings are pretty glaring issues.

Man I would've liked Blake Acres!

[Go_Dogs]

If we’re being honest, we’ve long had a great midfield but have never had the forwards or defenders to mix it with the best sides consistently. This year we made a move which looked great until Jones got injured to address our defence, and our forward line has improved through organic growth while the recruitment of Lobb should have been a difference maker too.

While I’d like to say we should be a top 4 side, there are lots of quality sides and we still have gaps and a reliance on a few key players to win matches for us.

Other sides have been better able to cover a lack of star quality by an evenness of contribution, a game style that creates roles and meaningful contributions from many and a few points of difference which we don’t have.

I’d love to be a top 4 side. I’d love a change of coach to make a significant difference and win us a flag. I’m not sure if either of those things are real.

[bornadog]

If we’re being honest, we’ve long had a great midfield but have never had the forwards or defenders to mix it with the best sides consistently. This year we made a move which looked great until Jones got injured to address our defence, and our forward line has improved through organic growth while the recruitment of Lobb should have been a difference maker too.

While I’d like to say we should be a top 4 side, there are lots of quality sides and we still have gaps and a reliance on a few key players to win matches for us.

Other sides have been better able to cover a lack of star quality by an evenness of contribution, a game style that creates roles and meaningful contributions from many and a few points of difference which we don’t have.

I’d love to be a top 4 side. I’d love a change of coach to make a significant difference and win us a flag. I’m not sure if either of those things are real.
I have long said we over rate our team. We lack a few key roles to get us into top 4.
when I put this to woof posters In a thread, most thought we had the players and didn’t need any specific players.

[azabob]

I have long said we over rate our team. We lack a few key roles to get us into top 4.
when I put this to woof posters In a thread, most thought we had the players and didn’t need any specific players.

But you call media commentators flogs or idiots etc who say we are not a top four team? I’m genuinely puzzled.

[azabob]

GG, Bailey Williams is Blake Acres. Same same.

[1eyedog]

You're right we have a strong list, where we might differ is the impact on what injuries are having to our results.
Essentially I think it's a reasonable question for the media to be asking about our performances.

Yep everyone has injuries. Melbourne have been missing Oliver for what seems like ages and now Fritsch. Collingwood lost McStay, De Goey for 3 weeks, Howe, it happens to everyone. St. Kilda was top 4 for half a aseason with a VFL team.

Problem is we seem to rely on 12 players way too much because our bottom 6 are poor. We can't spread the load like the top 4 teams. We cant afford to lose Jones and JJ because there is no-one that can come in and fill those roles.

Is it depth, is it sytems-based? I dunno.

[macca]

This is such a rubbish article , as my take is we dont have a top 4 list , where we currently sit on the ladder reflects that. Its just another pot shot headline grabber, have a snide go at our club.

Our bottom 6 players , cant kick , fumble and lack any evidence of being consistemt solid afl level football players i.e the 100 games : VDM, mcNeil, hannan , west , and the rest are just plagued with injuries. The other factor are those who cannot get a game : Sweet , Buku , Cleary , etc...

We have LOST games this year becasue we cannot kick. Journalidt write an article on that , and research on why this skills has degraded??? Fix the kicking issues , and our players wont suffer 12 point turn arounds when the ball gets rebound for goal ... its just too exhausting for them

The club should play the rest of the list and see who we can delist sooner than later.

[Rocket Science]

The troubling lack of depth and an inability to competently develop new recruits who aren't freakish talents into reliable regulars is a recurring theme and there's few things more miserable than match committee threads that necessarily devolve into a regurgitation of the same handful of reheated candidates who neither deserve, demand, nor seize a spot. Our last 4-6 picked feels like it's been a fruitless revolving door for some time now.

Digressing, expectation is a cursed thing but barring an epiphany it's hard to argue against an epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'.

[GVGjr]

But you call media commentators flogs or idiots etc who say we are not a top four team? I’m genuinely puzzled.

And when the members of the site ask the question if we have made enough list changes at the end of the season by retaining marginally talented players for a season or two too long that gets shot down as well.
The quality of the list is only a problem and regarded as overrated when we are coming up short on expectations.

[chef]

We won a flag, im not sure we can ever say we wasted this Bevo era.

[GVGjr]

We won a flag, im not sure we can ever say we wasted this Bevo era.

I'm not sure the article is talking about the Bevo era, I don't think anyone can challenge that making 2 GF is anything other than impressive but they're asking a few questions about how we are performing at the moment.

[chef]

I'm not sure the article is talking about the Bevo era, I don't think anyone can challenge that making 2 GF is anything other than impressive but they're asking a few questions about how we are performing at the moment.

I guess we may not be as talented as some would like to believe. I think we have a longer 'tail' than most as our squad isn't as deep as it should be(and this is probs down to the guy replacing Dalrymple not being as good)

Look at our backline on Thursday night. 2 players who look cooked(Keath, Duryea), 2 who just aren't much chop(Gardner, VDM) and some project player who looks a mile away atm(JOD). We aren't top 4 quality.

[DOG GOD]

We lack depth, have no wings, lack specialist small to mid-sized forwards and can't get our best defence on the park yet we apparently should be a top four lock.

Each year I hear the same thing, and then at the same time see the list of deficiencies across the list trotted out. And at the end of it all we blame the coach.

Our issues may include the coach but the constant overlooking of our clear deficiencies in personnel drives me nuts.

Great post. Agree 100%

[DOG GOD]

I guess we may not be as talented as some would like to believe. I think we have a longer 'tail' than most as our squad isn't as deep as it should be(and this is probs down to the guy replacing Dalrymple not being as good)

Look at our backline on Thursday night. 2 players who look cooked(Keath, Duryea), 2 who just aren't much chop(Gardner, VDM) and some project player who looks a mile away atm(JOD). We aren't top 4 quality.

Agree. For mine we are certainly not a top 4 team. Our backline is in most part, deplorable. Slow, can’t intercept, slow decision making and other than a few, lack fundamental skills.

Our mids are one paced…slow, with most average to poor kicking skills. Macrae, Treloar and smith can’t defend to save themselves, and pretty much refuse to bust a gut doing it.

Our #1 ruck should be the best #2 ruck in the AFL, but whether that’s thru his ego or the MC’s rose coloured glasses, he continually frustrates in the most important matches against the best opposition.

Our fwd line is dysfunctional. We only have 2 GENUINE fwds in Jamarra and Weightman, a backman turned fwd and slow mids who can’t get into the midfield.

Our bottom 6 of the 22 don’t do anywhere near enough, leaving players like Naughton, Libba, and bont to have to bust their nuts week in week out.

Yes, we lost to the pies by 12 points. Jamarra played a great game, but Moore and Howe played off him and gave him room to run and jump. Against swans, his opponent was on his shoulder and he barely touched it up to half time.

For mine, Darcy looks a long way off.

We hit the desperation stick with Lobb.

We probably deserve to be right where we are. And I’ll be surprised if it improves anytime soon.

[bulldogtragic]

These all seem like valid arguments. So then surely we rebuild this year and stop tinkering on a list with apparently more holes than Swiss cheese?

[DOG GOD]

These all seem like valid arguments. So then surely we rebuild this year and stop tinkering on a list with apparently more holes than Swiss cheese?

Agree. I just don’t think we have the balls to make hard decisions regarding the list.

We are in serious need of 2 ready made highly skilled mids. Walsh, Serong, types.

[Sedat]

These all seem like valid arguments. So then surely we rebuild this year and stop tinkering on a list with apparently more holes than Swiss cheese?
If that is the case (big if), then the entire footy dept (including recruiting and fitness & conditioning) and senior management need to be removed because they have been on record as saying we are well and truly in the window and have been since 2020. You live the words, you need to live the consequences.

Things are never as good as they seem and they are never as bad as they seem. Thursday night was a very poor performance against an ordinary (in 2023) team, but a strong win this week and going on a run will put our current situation into perspective. There are no excuses whatsoever for us not running the table between now and R24. None of the teams we will be playing in the next 5 weeks are infallible, nor are they complete. All teams have holes on their list and issues with their game plan (even the filth). The time to review is at the completion of the season - if we fall in a heap, big changes will rightly be considered then.

[chef]

These all seem like valid arguments. So then surely we rebuild this year and stop tinkering on a list with apparently more holes than Swiss cheese?

How big of a rebuild are thinking and how long will it take for to challenge again?

For me the worry with a rebuild is our greatest player is now in his prime and who knows how long that'll last.

[bulldogtragic]

If that is the case (big if), then the entire footy dept (including recruiting and fitness & conditioning) and senior management need to be removed because they have been on record as saying we are well and truly in the window and have been since 2020. You live the words, you need to live the consequences.

Things are never as good as they seem and they are never as bad as they seem. Thursday night was a very poor performance against an ordinary (in 2023) team, but a strong win this week and going on a run will put our current situation into perspective. There are no excuses whatsoever for us not running the table between now and R24. None of the teams we will be playing in the next 5 weeks are infallible, nor are they complete. All teams have holes on their list and issues with their game plan (even the filth). The time to review is at the completion of the season - if we fall in a heap, big changes will rightly be considered then.

We did this review already and then kept it secret didn’t we? Time for another secret review? Then refuse to publicly comment because there’s a review underway and we don’t want to prejudice it. Then we just need to find an outside patsy to put everything on… We should run any state government.

[bulldogtragic]

How big of a rebuild are thinking and how long will it take for to challenge again?

For me the worry with a rebuild is our greatest player is now in his prime and who knows how long that'll last.

I think if we fully 100% hit it this year, we could rebound quickly. We are looking at three first rounders with matching a bid on Croft. That’s a good start to start stockpiling top end talent on top of our recent high end picks. I’m also open to the right FA if they’re good enough and fill a need. Plus who knows what trade requests might come and what we can get for them. I don’t think we have to be down all that much or all that long if we can commit to it properly this year.

My counter to not rebuilding while Bont is around, is do we expect him to make up for the bottom six players being sub standard? He’s super man, but he can’t be expected to cover a handful of average players who shouldn’t be playing. Say Smith requests a trade and we have four first rounders this year plus a good free agent and we actually get some kids late in the ND & RD. If we can nail those picks, develop them quickly and develop a game plan with them as JUH, Buss & Darcy start to impose themselves, then perhaps it’s a lean year or two (10-12th) - where we get some top 10 picks and aim to slingshot back up the order as these kids start to hit 30-40 games. And… Bont is still playing and mentoring them into being the best footballers they can be.

I honestly don’t think this rebuild has to hurt that much. But it needs to be all in or not at all. Either rebuild the platform for a crack in the big to distant future or trade ourselves into the top 4. I don’t think trying to both will help either strategy. Right now would we want Lobb or picks 30 & 30? I supported the trade thinking the club was right sprouting that we are in the window. But I don’t think we are. So I think hit a very strong draft with the view to get in top talent and rebuild quick. Something like we did in 1999 ND but with more talent as a base to hopefully slingshot I’d up faster with the aim of contending while Bont is still here.

1999: Bob, Gia, Gilbee, Shaggy, Hahn, Bowden, Wiggins,

[GVGjr]

I guess we may not be as talented as some would like to believe. I think we have a longer 'tail' than most as our squad isn't as deep as it should be(and this is probs down to the guy replacing Dalrymple not being as good)

Look at our backline on Thursday night. 2 players who look cooked(Keath, Duryea), 2 who just aren't much chop(Gardner, VDM) and some project player who looks a mile away atm(JOD). We aren't top 4 quality.

That's by design though. We didn't need to play JOD and we appear to have rushed in Darcy.

[Sedat]

We did this review already and then kept it secret didn’t we? Time for another secret review? Then refuse to publicly comment because there’s a review underway and we don’t want to prejudice it. Then we just need to find an outside patsy to put everything on… We should run any state government.
No secret reviews and no internal reviews by the people that should be under review themselves.

[Sedat]

That's by design though. We didn't need to play JOD and we appear to have rushed in Darcy.
I understand the discussion on JOD but in the modern game there is an absolute premium on tall intercept defenders, and we have clearly identified JOD as someone who can fill this critical void. Geelong did the same fast-tracking of Blicavs and I'm personally ok with it, even if the whole selection integrity discussion can of worms is potentially opened up.

Agree 100% on Darcy. Get his body get right for the next 10-12 years.

[bulldogtragic]

No secret reviews and no internal reviews by the people that should be under review themselves.

After the promised review and to release it - then nothing - forgive me if I don’t hold my breath for it. Not a negative or positive, I just don’t think we are the organisation that swings axes in management. For the most part (not all), the people that have left have been resignations. I think like fringe players getting extra tests, we just keep backing our people. No matter the skills not improving, injury management, development, poor assistants, fitness or whatever. Our ethos is always keep backing them in. I’d be shocked for the highly competent (yet nearly invisible) president to sit down Bains and go through the management with a view to renewal, new ideas, refreshing the departments, challenging the status quo by demanding better performers. We are clearly happy with everyone in place and outside of anyone wishing to have a career elsewhere by resigning, I think everyone will be staying. That’s just the culture as I see it. The question I can’t answer, is how many of our people would be employed by the bigger clubs in the same roles?

[angelopetraglia]

After the promised review and to release it - then nothing - forgive me if I don?t hold my breath for it. Not a negative or positive, I just don?t think we are the organisation that swings axes in management. For the most part (not all), the people that have left have been resignations. I think like fringe players getting extra tests, we just keep backing our people. No matter the skills not improving, injury management, development, poor assistants, fitness or whatever. Our ethos is always keep backing them in. I?d be shocked for the highly competent (yet nearly invisible) president to sit down Bains and go through the management with a view to renewal, new ideas, refreshing the departments, challenging the status quo by demanding better performers. We are clearly happy with everyone in place and outside of anyone wishing to have a career elsewhere by resigning, I think everyone will be staying. That?s just the culture as I see it. The question I can?t answer, is how many of our people would be employed by the bigger clubs in the same roles?

Understand your point. But no miracle answer in so called "reviews".

How many "reviews" have Carlton have? They have some deep investigation every few years. Blow the place up. Make a lot of noise. Start again.

They have not played in a single finals series in 10 years. They have not made a PF in over 20 years. They have 100K members and have a lot more resources and financial backers than us.

[GVGjr]

I understand the discussion on JOD but in the modern game there is an absolute premium on tall intercept defenders, and we have clearly identified JOD as someone who can fill this critical void. Geelong did the same fast-tracking of Blicavs and I'm personally ok with it, even if the whole selection integrity discussion can of worms is potentially opened up.

Agree 100% on Darcy. Get his body get right for the next 10-12 years.

The one counter to the JOD intercept defender role is we have played him more forward so far in his early career.
I'm bullish on him as a player for the future but he can develop at Footscray and it doesn't have to be in the seniors

[Mantis]

I have long said we over rate our team. We lack a few key roles to get us into top 4.
when I put this to woof posters In a thread, most thought we had the players and didn?t need any specific players.

Collingwood are on the top of the ladder with KPP’s (besides Moore) who are just average AFL players and a mix match of flankers who just play their roles, sure they have some A grade talent, but no more than us.

What’s different?

[bornadog]

Collingwood are on the top of the ladder with KPP’s (besides Moore) who are just average AFL players and a mix match of flankers who just play their roles, sure they have some A grade talent, but no more than us.

What’s different?

Difference is pace. Who would you prefer in your team:

Quaynor, Noble, McCreery, Johnson, Crisp, Hill

or McNeil, Scott, VDM, West

[DOG GOD]

Difference is pace. Who would you prefer in your team:

Quaynor, Noble, McCreery, Johnson, Crisp, Hill

or McNeil, Scott, VDM, West

And those Coll boys know how to tackle and make it stick. Throw Maynard in there as well.

[Mantis]

Difference is pace. Who would you prefer in your team:

Quaynor, Noble, McCreery, Johnson, Crisp, Hill

or McNeil, Scott, VDM, West

If the sport was athletics I might agree that pure pace was vital, but it’s intent and how you use your legs that’s important, and it’s where we fail.

[jeemak]

At what point do we also just say the guys who play for Collingwood are actually really good footballers as well?

[Bulldog Joe]

At what point do we also just say the guys who play for Collingwood are actually really good footballers as well?

This the issue I have when we talk rebuild.

Who actually valued Collingwood's list at the end of 2021.

They haven't done too much more than tweak some things and change their coach.

I would suspect that everyone rated our list ahead of Collingwood and yet they are now premiership favorites with a couple of trades and adding some fringe players from outside.

Does anyone think they have had a rebuild.

[bornadog]

At what point do we also just say the guys who play for Collingwood are actually really good footballers as well?

That is what I am saying. Compare the two sets of players?

[bornadog]

This the issue I have when we talk rebuild.

Who actually valued Collingwood's list at the end of 2021.

They haven't done too much more than tweak some things and change their coach.

I would suspect that everyone rated our list ahead of Collingwood and yet they are now premiership favorites with a couple of trades and adding some fringe players from outside.

Does anyone think they have had a rebuild.

Yes, they have completely tweaked their team

[Bulldog Joe]

Yes, they have completely tweaked their team

How have they completely tweaked the team?

They have changed how they play but the only really significant addition is Nick Daicos.

That doesn't constitute a rebuild.

[bornadog]

How have they completely tweaked the team?

They have changed how they play but the only really significant addition is Nick Daicos.

That doesn't constitute a rebuild.

2021
saac Chugg (del) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/684525/-no-fuss-magpie-calls-it-quits-after-123-games-in-black-and-white)*
Levi Greenwood (ret) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/639244/tough-magpie-retires-after-ongoing-concussion-battles)
Mark Keane (ret) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/695584)
Max Lynch (trd) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/683694/hawks-secure-young-pies-ruckman-as-ceglar-replacement)
Chris Mayne (ret) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/659022/mayne-event-comes-to-a-close-veteran-pie-ex-docker-calls-time)
Jay Rantall (del) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/684525/-no-fuss-magpie-calls-it-quits-after-123-games-in-black-and-white)
Brayden Sier (del) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/684525/-no-fuss-magpie-calls-it-quits-after-123-games-in-black-and-white)
Josh Thomas (ret) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/684525)
Anton Tohill (ret) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/670933/defender-turns-back-on-pies-to-pursue-medical-degree-in-ireland)

2022

Callum Brown (del) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/847300/pies-cut-sons-of-gun-among-four-delistings)
Tyler Brown (del) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/847300/pies-cut-sons-of-gun-among-four-delistings)
Isaac Chugg (del) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/847300/pies-cut-sons-of-gun-among-four-delistings)
Brodie Grundy (trd) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/854558)
Ollie Henry (trd) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/854559/three-way-deal-lands-henry-mitchell-and-stephens-at-new-clubs)
Jack Madgen (del) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/858722/pies-cut-injury-hit-defender-12-game-wingman-after-trade-period)
Liam McMahon (del) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/847300/pies-cut-sons-of-gun-among-four-delistings)
Cooper Murley* (del) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/858722/pies-cut-injury-hit-defender-12-game-wingman-after-trade-period)
Caleb Poulter (del) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/858722/pies-cut-injury-hit-defender-12-game-wingman-after-trade-period)
Jordan Roughead (ret) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/768186/pies-shock-veteran-defender-hangs-up-the-boots)

[bulldogtragic]

Collingwood:

2020:

Picks 17, 19, 23, 30, 31, 44 (McReery) (RD 13 (Ginnivan), 28)

2021:

Pick 4 (Daicos), 45, 49, 52, (RD 2, 20)

2022:

Picks 19, 28, 48 (RD 16)



Collingwood did really well out of the draft. They hit it hard in 2020 and then bagged Daicos. I think it?s been helpful for them, and they have plenty of kids still to impact and keep their window open longer. I have no issue with doing something similar this year with our two first rounders and ability to take Croft late first round too.

[Bulldog Joe]

2021
saac Chugg (del) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/684525/-no-fuss-magpie-calls-it-quits-after-123-games-in-black-and-white)*
Levi Greenwood (ret) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/639244/tough-magpie-retires-after-ongoing-concussion-battles)
Mark Keane (ret) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/695584)
Max Lynch (trd) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/683694/hawks-secure-young-pies-ruckman-as-ceglar-replacement)
Chris Mayne (ret) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/659022/mayne-event-comes-to-a-close-veteran-pie-ex-docker-calls-time)
Jay Rantall (del) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/684525/-no-fuss-magpie-calls-it-quits-after-123-games-in-black-and-white)
Brayden Sier (del) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/684525/-no-fuss-magpie-calls-it-quits-after-123-games-in-black-and-white)
Josh Thomas (ret) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/684525)
Anton Tohill (ret) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/670933/defender-turns-back-on-pies-to-pursue-medical-degree-in-ireland)

2022

Callum Brown (del) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/847300/pies-cut-sons-of-gun-among-four-delistings)
Tyler Brown (del) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/847300/pies-cut-sons-of-gun-among-four-delistings)
Isaac Chugg (del) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/847300/pies-cut-sons-of-gun-among-four-delistings)
Brodie Grundy (trd) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/854558)
Ollie Henry (trd) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/854559/three-way-deal-lands-henry-mitchell-and-stephens-at-new-clubs)
Jack Madgen (del) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/858722/pies-cut-injury-hit-defender-12-game-wingman-after-trade-period)
Liam McMahon (del) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/847300/pies-cut-sons-of-gun-among-four-delistings)
Cooper Murley* (del) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/858722/pies-cut-injury-hit-defender-12-game-wingman-after-trade-period)
Caleb Poulter (del) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/858722/pies-cut-injury-hit-defender-12-game-wingman-after-trade-period)
Jordan Roughead (ret) (https://www.afl.com.au/news/768186/pies-shock-veteran-defender-hangs-up-the-boots)

So the significant out was Grundy.
Everyone else was fringe or worse except for those retiring.
How does that constitute a rebuild

[bornadog]

So the significant out was Grundy.
Everyone else was fringe or worse except for those retiring.
How does that constitute a rebuild

You don't think clearing 19 players, plenty dead wood, is a rebuild. - Maybe a mini rebuild like we did in 2017, 18

We need to also get tough and make sure we do a good cleanout of players we don't think will really make it.

[bulldogtragic]

So the significant out was Grundy.
Everyone else was fringe or worse except for those retiring.
How does that constitute a rebuild

Look at 2020 as the rebuild. 5 picks inside 30 then McReery & Ginnivsn who kicked 40 in his second year. Not to mention a fresh feel around the place. A new era, not the stale old one Ther was choking the life out of them.

[Bulldog Joe]

You don't think clearing 19 players, plenty dead wood, is a rebuild. - Maybe a mini rebuild like we did in 2017, 18

We need to also get tough and make sure we do a good cleanout of players we don't think will really make it.

They cleared deadwood and lost 18 players. Chugg is on the outs both years.

Most clubs are clearing 6 to 10 players every year.

The only players they traded out in those 2 years were Lynch and Grundy.

BT is probably right that there rebuild was actually the year before and caused by their salary cap issues

[bornadog]

Our delistings:

2022 - 8
2021 - 6
2020 - 9
2019 - 5
2018 - 10
2017 - 8

Other than 2019, we have averaged around 8

[bulldogtragic]

Our delistings:

2022 - 8
2021 - 6
2020 - 10
2019 - 5
2018 - 10
2017 - 8

Other than 2019, we have averaged around 8

2020 is a little misleading as with C19 rules we put Cavarra & Hayes straight into the rookie list and re-rookies Smith too. Not really delistings as list movements laterally.

So it’s more like 6.5 between 2019-2022. Which highlights we hold into fringe players.

[bornadog]

2020 is a little misleading as with C19 rules we put Cavarra & Hayes straight into the rookie list and re-rookies Smith too. Not really delistings as list movements laterally.

I took them out.
PS: just checked missed Cavarra so should be 9

[bornadog]

All well and good to say we can delist players, but the players we bring in are 3rd and 4th rounders and it is hard to find decent players.

At least this year we have some low picks that we don't need to use on FS/academy, so should get some talent that is needed.

[bulldogtragic]

All well and good to say we can delist players, but the players we bring in are 3rd and 4th rounders and it is hard to find decent players.

At least this year we have some low picks that we don't need to use on FS/academy, so should get some talent that is needed.

You love McReery. He was a third rounder. Easton Wood was a third rounder. Lewis Mitchell the second last pick, with Larkey a few picks earlier. Frederick 4th rounder and Ham 5th.

We are not going to recruit them by holding onto players who can’t deliver.

[chef]

Turning over players isnt the issue, its the ones we bring in to replace them. It seems a bit of rinse and repeat.

[bornadog]

Turning over players isnt the issue, its the ones we bring in to replace them. It seems a bit of rinse and repeat.

Well then that means our recruiters aren't good enough

[bornadog]

The other area we are conservative is taking a risk when recruting/trading for players. There are plenty of players that seemingly had off field issues but clubs have taken them on with success. eg Stengle

[bulldogtragic]

Well then that means our recruiters aren't good enough

Fair question to ask. Who was the last really decent player not taken high - recently?

Off the top of my head Sweek, Raak, Khamis, NMM, McNeil, McComb, Hayes, Butler, Porter, Cavarra, Parker, Brad Lynch, Le Young, La Young, etc.

Are we going back to Bailey Williams or Caleb Daniel?

[Grantysghost]

Fair question to ask. Who was the last really decent player not taken high - recently?

Off the top of my head Sweek, Raak, Khamis, NMM, McNeil, McComb, Hayes, Butler, Porter, Cavarra, Parker, Brad Lynch, Le Young, La Young, etc.

Are we going back to Bailey Williams or Caleb Daniel?

It's a good question. Who is the last non first round pick that's made a big difference to the team?

Gardner? Jones was 43. Maybe.

Swans best player was second round. Gulden. Academy but still no one bid early.

Dees have Spargo, Fritsch, Petty, Sparrow, Jordan etc all second rounders.

[bornadog]

It's a good question. Who is the last non first round pick that's made a big difference to the team?

Gardner?

Swans best player was second round. Gulden. Academy but still no one bid early.

we have some potentials that haven't made it to our best 22 - Cleary was pick#61, Garcia pick 62,

As BT asked how far back do we go - Bailey Dale was pick 45

[bulldogtragic]

It's a good question. Who is the last non first round pick that's made a big difference to the team?

Gardner?

Swans best player was second round. Gulden. Academy but still no one bid early.

Maybe we just can’t identify late talent like we used to?

Wood, Dahl, Boyd, Morris, JJ, Lake etc.

If so, it’s a problem because we then avoid drafting for fear of failure and stick to delisted players and VFL players instead. Neither have been a great source of bringing in talent.

[bornadog]

Maybe we just can’t identify late talent like we used to?

Wood, Dahl, Boyd, Morris, JJ, Lake etc.

If so, it’s a problem because we then avoid drafting for fear of failure and stick to delisted players and VFL players instead. Neither have been a great source of bringing in talent.

I think this discussion is hitting the nail on the head

[azabob]

Fair question to ask. Who was the last really decent player not taken high - recently?

Off the top of my head Sweek, Raak, Khamis, NMM, McNeil, McComb, Hayes, Butler, Porter, Cavarra, Parker, Brad Lynch, Le Young, La Young, etc.

Are we going back to Bailey Williams or Caleb Daniel?

To add context we need to allocate players to which era they were drafted Dalrymple, Austin or Milesi.

[Grantysghost]

we have some potentials that haven't made it to our best 22 - Cleary was pick#61, Garcia pick 62,

As BT asked how far back do we go - Bailey Dale was pick 45

I think woof has worked it out.

We can't draft outside the first round...!

Someone check the top 4 sides and work out how many non first rounders are crucial members.

I did learn the other day the Lions drafted Schache at 2 when we got Dunkley at 25 (2015). They had their chance!

[bulldogtragic]

1st:

Bont, Treloar*, Macrae, Smith, Naughton, JUH, Darcy, Weightman, Buss, Richards, English, Stringer (before off rails)

Yep draft high or go home.

[Grantysghost]

I'll do Pies.

2014
———
Crisp was a bag of chips add on in the Beams trade, probably pick 25 is close.
Maynard pick 30
Cox rookie draft

2015
———
Howe for Seedsman and Kennedy probably works out around a second.

2016
———
Hoskin-Elliot traded for future second rounder
Josh Daicos f/s pick 57

2017
———
Murphy pick 39
Mihocek (rookie draft)

2018
———
Noble (mid season draft)

2020
———
McCreery pick 44
Ginnivin (rookie draft)
Johnson (mid season draft)

2021
———
Lipinski trade for pick 43

2022
———
Frampton traded for future rd 3 pick.
Hill traded for future rd 2 (about on points)
Mitchell hard to work out but looks around a second or third as part of Henry trade.
Markov pre season supplemental

[macca]

Its crazy they picked up Markov and his performing in the back half , rebound roll which Daicos was doing. This has allowed nick Daicos to play in the midfield . This was what i heard in one of the interviews with MaCrae this week.

Frampton is playing a roll

Thanks for collecting list of value picks by the pies , @Grantyghost

Collingwood is a first choice club for many playera

DO the pies have better training facilities than ours ?

[Grantysghost]

Its crazy they picked up Markov and his performing in the back half , rebound roll which Daicos was doing. This has allowed nick Daicos to play in the midfield . This was what i heard in one of the interviews with MaCrae this week.

Frampton is playing a roll

Thanks for collecting list of value picks by the pies , @Grantyghost

Collingwood is a first choice club for many playera

DO the pies have better training facilities than ours ?

No worries it is bloody interesting to look at how they've built the list.

[josie]

I thought Markov would be a good pickup for us - speedy and reasonable footballer

[anfo27]

No worries it is bloody interesting to look at how they've built the list.

Its more interesting to see the style they play. I don't think people look at that list and go WOW! They watch them play & go WOW!

LET THEM PLAY!

Kids go out and play footy & express themselves. Its beautiful to watch. We draft players & indoctrinate them on process of style. We just about take all the natural instincts to play this game out of them, to the point they're robots. Then when the game is on the line with 3 minutes to go & we need to score, the players are still in default mode. Confused on how to take the game on, as they once did as kids.
Fly has them doing what all players would love to do. Hats off to the pies, love watching them play.

[jeemak]

Well then that means our recruiters aren't good enough

You might be onto something. Perhaps Sam Power and his team need to step up and start bringing in quality players not gifted and easily secured through draft points theory.

[GVGjr]

You might be onto something. Perhaps Sam Power and his team need to step up and start bringing in quality players not gifted and easily secured through draft points theory.

We simply haven't been opening up enough list spots to really test their talent identification abilities later in the draft but I agree we should be bold and brave enough to back ourselves. Where we have been fortunate is adding the likes of Baker, JOD and Poulter after a period of time to reflect and assess.

[azabob]

We simply haven't been opening up enough list spots to really test their talent identification abilities later in the draft but I agree we should be bold and brave enough to back ourselves. Where we have been fortunate is adding the likes of Baker, JOD and Poulter after a period of time to reflect and assess.

Yep that is my thoughts as well. I don't think having three national recruiters from 2019 has been great either. Coupled with the fact we hardly had a pick in the 2020 and 2021 drafts.

We simply need to identify a pool of kids to bring in over the next three years. I'd be aiming for 15. Not including trades or free agency.

Interestingly Collingwood of late have not been afraid to delist draftees once their two years are up.

[bornadog]

Yep that is my thoughts as well. I don't think having three national recruiters from 2019 has been great either. Coupled with the fact we hardly had a pick in the 2020 and 2021 drafts.

We simply need to identify a pool of kids to bring in over the next three years. I'd be aiming for 15. Not including trades or free agency.

Interestingly Collingwood of late have not been afraid to delist draftees once their two years are up.

Simply not true..


Our delistings:


2022 - 8
2021 - 6
2020 - 9
2019 - 5
2018 - 10
2017 - 8


Other than 2019, we have averaged around 8

We have had 15 players in those years delisted/traded/retired.

[mjp]

Interestingly Collingwood of late have not been afraid to delist draftees once their two years are up.

Poulter looks OK though right?

[azabob]

Simply not true..



We have had 15 players in those years delisted/traded/retired.


What is not true? It is my opinion.

I never said we didn't bring in 15 players.

[azabob]

Poulter looks OK though right?

He does but they clearly didn't see a defined role for him at the club and chose to cut him. Time obviously will tell.

[bornadog]

What is not true? It is my opinion.

I never said we didn't bring in 15 players.

No, you said: " Coupled with the fact we hardly had a pick in the 2020 and 2021 drafts."

15 picks is a lot.

Our recruiters have failed to pick decent players in the 3rd and 4th rounds - maybe some may still come good, but at this stage we don't have any.

[azabob]

No, you said: " Coupled with the fact we hardly had a pick in the 2020 and 2021 drafts."

15 picks is a lot.

Our recruiters have failed to pick decent players in the 3rd and 4th rounds


Lets stick to the time period I mentioned 2020 and 2021.

2020 we took two picks in the national draft JUH and Bedendo (4th round)
2021 we took three players in the national draft Darcy, Jones (3rd round) and Cleary (4th round)

Five picks in two drafts isn't a lot.

Due to circumstances we haven't given Dom Milesi much of an opportunity to unearth talent in rounds 1,2,3.

[hujsh]

Simply not true..



We have had 15 players in those years delisted/traded/retired.

We drafted 5... that's right only FIVE players in 2020 and 2021 COMBINED.

Obviously there is a reason for that in those years being Darcy and JUH but still that's a huge deficit of an intake of young players and the pendulum will need to swing back at some point.

Hell combine it with last year too and it's 8 over three years. Bringing in the likes of Liam Jones and Lobb doesn't really counter that lack of draftees coming in and we've also lost players we wanted to keep like Lipinski and more importantly Dunkley who were on the younger side of things. We have an old ass list.

[Grantysghost]

Poulter looks OK though right?

He does, you can also kind of see why he didn't fit their model.

He's a nice player, not super intense. That doesn't cut it in the Pie's current team.

It was an interesting exercise going through their drafting. A few top end misses. (Aish, Sharenberg, Stephenson). They don't get a lot of high picks due to consistent form.

[hujsh]

We drafted 5... that's right only FIVE players in 2020 and 2021 COMBINED.

Obviously there is a reason for that in those years being Darcy and JUH but still that's a huge deficit of an intake of young players and the pendulum will need to swing back at some point.

Hell combine it with last year too and it's 8 over three years. Bringing in the likes of Liam Jones and Lobb doesn't really counter that lack of draftees coming in and we've also lost players we wanted to keep like Lipinski and more importantly Dunkley who were on the younger side of things. We have an old ass list.

Out of curiosity I decided to go a bit further back to see when we actually last drafted a decent haul of kids.

2019 was also 3 (Weightman Buttler and Garcia, 1 good 1 bad and 1 TBD)

2018 was 5 but 2 of them 5 were Ben Cavarra and Will Hayes to go with Smith, West and Vanders.

2017 was 3 (Naughton, Richards and Porter)

2016 was 4 (English Lipinski L.Young and Greene at pick 70)

2015 was 4 but notably all 5 picks were inside the top 50 (Dunkley Collins Adams and B.Williams)

2014 was 6 with McLean, Webb, Hamilton, Dale, Daniel and Cordy all getting drafted.


I'd argue that the last time we properly invested in the draft and brought in young talent was 2015. It's usually been 3 kids with 1-2 of them being very late speculative picks

I'd also argue our hit rate is not bad with the 2nd and 3rd round picks when we actually get a chance to use them.

[bornadog]

Out of curiosity I decided to go a bit further back to see when we actually last drafted a decent haul of kids.

2019 was also 3 (Weightman Buttler and Garcia, 1 good 1 bad and 1 TBD)

2018 was 5 but 2 of them 5 were Ben Cavarra and Will Hayes to go with Smith, West and Vanders.

2017 was 3 (Naughton, Richards and Porter)

2016 was 4 (English Lipinski L.Young and Greene at pick 70)

2015 was 4 but notably all 5 picks were inside the top 50 (Dunkley Collins Adams and B.Williams)

2014 was 6 with McLean, Webb, Hamilton, Dale, Daniel and Cordy all getting drafted.


I'd argue that the last time we properly invested in the draft and brought in young talent was 2015. It's usually been 3 kids with 1-2 of them being very late speculative picks

At the same time we have brought in alot of players from other clubs - mainly taller players like -Keath, Bruce, Hannan, Lobb, Jones.

[GVGjr]

Back to the theme of the opening post but it would be interesting to know the reasons why we haven't quite been living up to our ability.

Is it the challenges of the move to Skinner reserve over Summer and the early part of the season?
Remembering that the players were finding the harder surface more than challenging from November through to the New Year.
After the Xmas break I think the ground was receiving a higher rating from the players. It couldn't have been ideal to have players shuffling between two places and and having to head back to the club to have a shower. The upshot was that we did have a lot of players rotating through the rehab group throughout the preseason.
On top of all that it must be a genuine challenge for our VFL side to have not had a home ground for so long.

Is it that our fitness level isn't as good as some other clubs?
I think some other clubs got a bit of a jump on us in terms of fitness.
There is no question that we work the players very hard in the sessions and I witnessed a lot of drills over summer that were designed that way but is it cutting edge? Do we do enough hard running drills when compared to our more traditional match sim type focus?

Are we not tackling the issue of our set shot goal kicking the right way?
Typically the goal kicking drills are performed at the end of the training sessions and I believe this is to simulate how the players routine stands up during levels of fatigue. It's questionable to me that given the way forwards are rested if fatigue is that prevalent. In match day though we are also missing as many shots early in games and quarters where you would assume fatigue hasn't set in.
Do we need to be prepared to bring in a specialist from outside the club? I know clubs typically don't want to do that but if we get it right we will become a better side.

Has our footy department been set-up the right way after the departure of Chris Maple?
It seems strange to me that we have split the role of the GM of the footy department over 3 people and I wonder if that has been effective? I guess the soft cap on the footy department spend has clubs looking for ways to cut costs and redirect the available funds elsewhere but it's a critical role and while I believe Maple was highly regarded by most in the footy department but did we even lose some ground there when Graham Lowe left us back in 2017?

Are our assistant coaches performing to the required level and who assesses their performance?
With now no GM of Football at the club who monitors Bevo and the assistant coaches on the moves they make, the match day selections and the game plan effectiveness? Our match day selections have clearly been hard to decipher.

Has the club been distracted by a focus on the Whitten Oval redevelopment?
It's a massive investment the club, council and governments have made and there would be a fair bit of pressure to get it right but has it come at the expense of a focus with our on field performance? This would also be impacting our AFLW side.

Has our recruiting and list management been able to identify the required talent?
Like all departments at club the recruiting team would be asked to stretch the resources far and wide but you have to wonder if we have enough talent scouts out there?

Why there is a perception that the club might be wasting what should be a golden era for itself probably has some of the above points factoring into it but the real challenge for the club is how they might be progressing on restructuring the club after the 2022 review.
Clubs are huge and complex businesses but are intrinsically linked when the footy department is winning games.
Attracting sponsors and growing membership numbers is just much better if the club is performing well on the field. That's also one of the reasons why we try and foster a great relationship the media so that a positive message about where the club is heading reaches far and wide audience.

My genuine belief is that we are under-performing to the talent we have but it's very fixable. Time will tell if we have the will to take on the challenge but having the media speculating on why we haven't been measuring up isn't a bad thing and shouldn't be so readily dismissed as rubbish or someone trying to make a name for themselves at the expense.
We should take the positive and negative stories as just media commentary and we certainly shouldn't take it so personally during the more challenging times.

[hujsh]

At the same time we have brought in alot of players from other clubs - mainly taller players like -Keath, Bruce, Hannan, Lobb, Jones.

Sure. It's part of why we don't have those mid range picks. But it's also aged up our list profile significantly and we probably need some adjustment this or next year as there just doesn't seem to be many kids pushing for selection at VFL level

[GVGjr]

Sure. It's part of why we don't have those mid range picks. But it's also aged up our list profile significantly and we probably need some adjustment this or next year as there just doesn't seem to be many kids pushing for selection at VFL level

When you have such and experienced playing list it's harder to hide behind when you have a significantly younger list and it also builds a higher level of expectation both in the media and the fan base. It does look bad when that move doesn't quite result in improved performances.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

At the same time we have brought in alot of players from other clubs - mainly taller players like -Keath, Bruce, Hannan, Lobb, Jones.

Gardner and O’Brien are two others as well and with the exception of Liam Jones, you would have to question the wisdom of the selections. Treloar was a bit of a bonus coming from such a strong Club as Collingwood.
It will be good to see Busslinger as our number one draft pick from last year tried as without
Jones we lack another key defender.

[bulldogtragic]

Gardner and O?Brien are two others as well and with the exception of Liam Jones, you would have to question the wisdom of the selections. Treloar was a bit of a bonus coming from such a strong Club as Collingwood.
It will be good to see Busslinger as our number one draft pick from last year tried as without
Jones we lack another key defender.

Add in Schache and a cooked Stef Martin to the recent list. To TOB, Gards, Keath, Bruce, Hannan, Lobb & Jones. (Cloke if we go back to 2016 - but cheap)

A lot of second and third rounders used here. Luckily two FAs, one for La Young who already walked and a MSD.

[Hotdog60]

Is our list the result of not recovering for Covid. In saying a lot of staff were let go is this including talent scouts and staff under Sam Power. Are talent scouts employed or is it a volunteer arrangement?
Are we recruiting on what's easily known because the resources aren't there to give us better insight.
Makes me wonder.

[Bullies]

Interesting listening to Mitch Wallis saying we can't rely on our bottom 10 players in games when the game turns.

In the past our bottom 6 were part of the clubs strong attributes towards winning the flag.

[hujsh]

Interesting listening to Mitch Wallis saying we can't rely on our bottom 10 players in games when the game turns.

In the past our bottom 6 were part of the clubs strong attributes towards winning the flag.

Chas and Tom Boyd said the same on Danny/Boyd

[bulldogtragic]

Interesting listening to Mitch Wallis saying we can't rely on our bottom 10 players in games when the game turns.

In the past our bottom 6 were part of the clubs strong attributes towards winning the flag.


Chas and Tom Boyd said the same on Danny/Boyd

Sound arguments for turning over nearly 10 players on the list then. If our role players are being called out by recent former teammates/big names at the club for not being able to play their roles, then perhaps it’s time to find some other players who might.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Interesting listening to Mitch Wallis saying we can't rely on our bottom 10 players in games when the game turns.

In the past our bottom 6 were part of the clubs strong attributes towards winning the flag.

Was this said generally though? As in, a clubs stars need to control momentum when games turn and you shouldn't be relying on the bottom 10 guys?

[Grantysghost]

Interesting listening to Mitch Wallis saying we can't rely on our bottom 10 players in games when the game turns.

In the past our bottom 6 were part of the clubs strong attributes towards winning the flag.

Mitch said the same last year right ;)

[Grantysghost]

Chas and Tom Boyd said the same on Danny/Boyd

Did you understand his run home scenarios! Ha, I needed to play it at half speed.

[Bullies]

Was this said generally though? As in, a clubs stars need to control momentum when games turn and you shouldn't be relying on the bottom 10 guys? I would have thought it was meant that it was time for them to stand up and show a bit when needed like a lot of the supporters think.

[mjp]

Did you understand his run home scenarios! Ha, I needed to play it at half speed.

How funny was it...

The guest whose name I've forgotten gave me visions of Joe Pesci in the Lethal Weapon flicks..

[Grantysghost]

How funny was it...

The guest whose name I've forgotten gave me visions of Joe Pesci in the Lethal Weapon flicks..

Chas Licciardello from Chaser fame.

[mjp]

Chas Licciardello from Chaser fame.

In any case...I just had this flashback to Pesci saying "Ok-ok-ok-ok" as he was trying to explain to Mel Gibson how money laundering worked. "And this is the best bit - you claim an income tax deduction on interest payments you NEVER MAKE"...

"...and it all comes down to THIS WEEK. If we beat Essendon, then I can't see how we miss out...".

It really is an entertaining podcast and the guys have pulled the right rein with recent guests.

[bulldogtragic]

The troubling lack of depth and an inability to competently develop new recruits who aren't freakish talents into reliable regulars is a recurring theme and there's few things more miserable than match committee threads that necessarily devolve into a regurgitation of the same handful of reheated candidates who neither deserve, demand, nor seize a spot. Our last 4-6 picked feels like it's been a fruitless revolving door for some time now.

Digressing, expectation is a cursed thing but barring an epiphany it's hard to argue against an epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'.

So right.

[azabob]

Interesting comments from David King from the weekends game.

Honestly I thought we would steady at three quarter time and win by 2-3 goals.


https://content.jwplatform.com/previews/sz3nENRF

[G-Mo77]

Interesting comments from David King from the weekends game.

Honestly I thought we would steady at three quarter time and win by 2-3 goals.


https://content.jwplatform.com/previews/sz3nENRF

So did I, with that wind I thought we'd be fine. I think I predicted 5 goals at 3 quarter time in the Match Day thread. Never looked like it until the last 5 minutes.

[Grantysghost]

He failed to mention the two kpds down.

Take Taylor and Himmelberg away for a half and it's probably a dogs win.
Criticism is fine but the context needs to be involved.

[bornadog]

Interesting comments from David King from the weekends game.

Honestly I thought we would steady at three quarter time and win by 2-3 goals.


https://content.jwplatform.com/previews/sz3nENRF

I listened to that this morning and I was disappointed he didn't analyse the game better. All he could think of was Naughton should have gone back instead of Lobb. He failed to address the fact that we had no forward pressure at all and the ball came out quickly and went straight down the ground for GWS to goal.

In the last there were 16 inside 50s each and we didn't create one stoppage to give us a chance of scoring.

Our Fwd 50 tackles were 7 for the game to 22 for GWS. What the hell were West (2), VDM (1), and Weightman (0) doing. Naughton (0) last year was top 5 to 10 for tackles inside 50.

He also just dismissed the fact two key players went down and upset the whole team structure. Do better King - #norespect

[bornadog]

I listened to that this morning and I was disappointed he didn't analyse the game better. All he could think of was Naughton should have gone back instead of Lobb. He failed to address the fact that we had no forward pressure at all and the ball came out quickly and went straight down the ground for GWS to goal.

In the last there were 16 inside 50s each and we didn't create one stoppage to give us a chance of scoring.

Our Fwd 50 tackles were 7 for the game to 22 for GWS. What the hell were West (2), VDM (1), and Weightman (0) doing. Naughton (0) last year was top 5 to 10 for tackles inside 50.

He also just dismissed the fact two key players went down and upset the whole team structure. Do better King - #norespect

Kings response to me re above:


we don’t analyse each and every game. We pick the discussion pieces of interest and I thought the Naughton & Greene roles were significant. Club reviews aren’t our thing. Sorry to disappoint

[jeemak]

So they just say the most inflammatory thing they can in the shortest period of time to generate the biggest bang for buck.

[chef]

So they just say the most inflammatory thing they can in the shortest period of time to generate the biggest bang for buck.

Clickbait

[bulldogtragic]

So they just say the most inflammatory thing they can in the shortest period of time to generate the biggest bang for buck.

Now youre on the trolley.

[Grantysghost]

So they just say the most inflammatory thing they can in the shortest period of time to generate the biggest bang for buck.

https://media.giphy.com/media/PFwKHjOcIoVUc/giphy.gif

[EasternWest]

So they just say the most inflammatory thing they can in the shortest period of time to generate the biggest bang for buck.

Lachlan, promote this man.

[Grantysghost]

Lachlan, promote this man.

Probably in my top 5 George moments.

There's another scene when Frank gets to talk to Steinbrenner and he gives it to him as well.

[azabob]

So they just say the most inflammatory thing they can in the shortest period of time to generate the biggest bang for buck.

To be fair that video I posted was at the back end of a four - five minute discussion and in context it is reasonable.

Each to their own though.

[jeemak]

To be fair that video I posted was at the back end of a four - five minute discussion and in context it is reasonable.

Each to their own though.

My response was the BAD's post where the analysis was explained, though I'll take your word for it.