2023 -2024 Rookie List Strategy

[bulldogtragic]

Why have we given up on the Rookie Draft (taking SSP/DFA/VFL) &/or fallen away so badly with the few selections we?ve used:

Premiership Rookie Drafted Players: Morris, Boyd, JJ & Dahl - the latter two taken in 2010.

More recent times: Baker, Gardner & Poulter (via MSD), Hayes, Cavarra, McNeil, Scott, Goetz, McComb, Gowers, Adcock, Parker, Roarke, La Young, Sweet, NMM, Prudden & Goodes & Pearce (all three after delisting), Kelly, Lynch, Jong, Campbell, Greenwood.


Clearly we could find gems in the rookie draft. Clearly other clubs are still finding guns too. But in looking through drafts this afternoon, we were on the cutting edge of identifying talent (since we don?t have the trade pull to bring in a lot of top end talent) but now we are really just treading water. JJ was our last gun taken in the RD way back in 2010.

With a bunch of vacancies on the rookie list this year (up to four) I?m wondering if we are going to try to find a young gun (or two) or whether we just keep doing what we?ve been doing and play it safe with a delisted player and maybe a VFL player or two.

[bulldogtragic]

Hi mods, can we change the title to 2023-2024 Rookie List Strategy please?

[JanLorMill]

Hi mods, can we change the title to 2023-2024 Rookie List Strategy please?
Yes please. The less said about 2023 the better.

[Bulldog Joe]

Hi mods, can we change the title to 2023-2024 Rookie List Strategy please?

Done

[Go_Dogs]

JJ and Dahl and these types worked because they had key AFL attributes and with development became AFL players (still with limitations) but important cogs in good sides with long careers.

We just pick up depth all rounders now. Our strategy is wrong.

Pick a couple of kids with some serious wheels. A couple of kids with some inside grunt. Etc etc. Then get them in the system and see how high the ceiling is. If it isn’t high move on quickly.

[FrediKanoute]

JJ and Dahl and these types worked because they had key AFL attributes and with development became AFL players (still with limitations) but important cogs in good sides with long careers.

We just pick up depth all rounders now. Our strategy is wrong.

Pick a couple of kids with some serious wheels. A couple of kids with some inside grunt. Etc etc. Then get them in the system and see how high the ceiling is. If it isn’t high move on quickly.

The point of the tookie list has been lost. It's now an extension of the main list,

[GVGjr]

I really enjoy rookie list discussions.

Just my thoughts but ideally the rookie list should be for players overlooked in the draft or at other clubs but they possess some AFL traits, ie work ethic, skills, pace, fills a specific need or plenty of upside that good development coaches and a strong VFL set-up can work with.
This is why the likes of Matthew Boyd (work ethic) Luke Dahlhaus (pace) JJ (upside) Gardner (needs) worked as rookies.

The other options are to use the rookie list to add depth to a contending playing list or you can do a combination of both options that balances the now and tomorrow.

Where I think we have missed opportunities over the last few years is that we have shuffled too many players with marginal or non clearly defined roles in and out of the rookie list and it really hasn't paid a decent dividend for us.

We can quickly flip this around but desperately need to conduct an honest and accurate assessment of the playing list to determine how we identify talent for rookie list spots going forward.

[macca]

- player with an elite trait but need sometime to develop other parts of their game
- they must be natural footballers, no atheletes please
-have natural aggressiom and hate to be beaten
- a good kick
- no list cloggers pleass

[anfo27]

What I'd like to see is perhaps hiring a indigenous person in a role of just concentrating on finding indigenous talent. I can't think of another club who have had less indigenous players on our list over the last 20 years. These bobby hill types are out there & we need to be finding them.

[azabob]

I get the feeling we have become very conservative in a number of areas and using the soft cap cuts as a reason (excuse) and that is shown in our drafting in later rounds and the rookie list.

We should be using the rookie list as a talent identification tool rather than a depth tool.

Assuming we only take 2-3 kids the national draft; I hope we draft a 2-3 kids from the under 18's and 1-2 players from the state leagues.

[GVGjr]

If we assume we will have 4 rookies and JOD outside of that I'd be okay if we moved Bedendo to the RL because of his marking prowess and versatility. Poulter should remain as a rookie. I'd look to add a ruck man and a midfielder/small defender who missed out on the draft.

I suspect we will hold a position open like we did his year.

[Mofra]

A ruckman. Rookie a ruckman.
We have Timmy as a first ruck (end of message). We just have to get one on the list.

I'd like a real fringe hail-mary too. We rookied JJ off a ~6 disposal average, Liam Picken after Collingwood rejected him 3 times (was it 4?), Matthew Boyd from Frankston seconds as an overager, etc.

No more APS kids who are 'neat kicks' and the 6th in line in their position t u18 level then try to turn them into something else.

[mjp]

What I'd like to see is perhaps hiring a indigenous person in a role of just concentrating on finding indigenous talent. I can't think of another club who have had less indigenous players on our list over the last 20 years. These bobby hill types are out there & we need to be finding them.

I don't disagree in principle but Hill was considered a first round pick right through his 17th and 18th year and 'fell' to 25 or whatever it was on draft night.

I get what you are saying about having someone to focus on identifying First Nations players but the Hill's of the world are on everyone's list...

[GVGjr]

A ruckman. Rookie a ruckman.
We have Timmy as a first ruck (end of message). We just have to get one on the list.

I'd like a real fringe hail-mary too. We rookied JJ off a ~6 disposal average, Liam Picken after Collingwood rejected him 3 times (was it 4?), Matthew Boyd from Frankston seconds as an overager, etc.

No more APS kids who are 'neat kicks' and the 6th in line in their position t u18 level then try to turn them into something else.

I agree with all that. If we don't rookie a ruck man or trade for one we are basically flagging our intent to ruck Darcy to some extent in 2024.

[azabob]

I agree with all that. If we don't rookie a ruck man or trade for one we are basically flagging our intent to ruck Darcy to some extent in 2024.

Sean or Sam ;)

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Our list management strategy has been poor since Dalrymple left and it's no coincidence that since his departure, we've barely had a hit from the rookie draft.

At what point do we change strategy? Using it as a means for depth hasn't worked when, clearly, depth is a major issue at our club.

[macca]

Some stats for last 2 years rookie , games played below

Statistically, its quite hard to get more than 10 games from any player in the list !
Matt Cottrell , Seasmus Mitchell , McVee and Casboult would have been my picks!
Ryan Lester got into a GF , maybe add Markov as well.


2022 > 10 games played
Seasmus Mitchell ( Hawks) 14
Ed Curnow 17
Ryan Lester 19 ( in a GF!)
Tylar Young ( richmond) 19
Daniel Howe (North) 11
Kayne Turner (north) 12

2021

Levi Casboult Gold Coast 41
Matt Cottrell Carlton 35
Lochie O'Brien Carlton 25
Judd McVee Melbourne 25
Robbie McComb Western Bulldogs 18
Jacob Wehr GWS 14
Cooper Hamilton GWS 8
Trent Dumont Port Adelaide 8
Ollie Dempsey Geelong 7
Ben Davis Adelaide 5
Ned Long Hawthorn 5
Karl Worner Fremantle 4
Sam Mayes Port Adelaide 3
Jared Polec North Melbourne 2
Isaac Chugg Collingwood 2
Mitchell Crowden Fremantle 2
Bigoa Nyuon Richmond 1
Lewis Taylor Sydney 1

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2022&t=R&s=P

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2021&t=R&s=P

[macca]

2020 rookie list games played
Have we done well with games played for McNeil , at pick 11?

Ginnivan was at pick 13, I wonder what we saw in either at the time ?

There are questions over Ginnivan's lifestyle ( he went to the races , day before the final) . He may be tradeable.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2020&t=R&s=P

2020
player club games
Bailey Banfield Fremantle 43
Lachlan McNeil Western Bulldogs 42
Jack Ginnivan Collingwood 42
Josh Treacy Fremantle 36
Roarke Smith Western Bulldogs 24
Grant Birchall Brisbane 23
Zachary Sproule GWS 16
Samuel Reid GWS 15
Luke Parks Carlton 8
Connor Menadue North Melbourne 7
Martin Gleeson Essendon 6
Zane Trew West Coast 6
Dylan Clarke Essendon 4
Jacob Townsend Gold Coast 2
Isaac Chugg Collingwood 2
Jack Saunders Hawthorn 1
Bryce Gibbs Adelaide 0
Patrick Walker North Melbourne 0
Malachy Carruthers Sydney 0
Tyson Goldsack Port Adelaide 0
Jack Hombsch Gold Coast 0
Daniel Venables West Coast 0
Jordan Murdoch Gold Coast 0
Taj Schofield F Port Adelaide 0
Aiden Fyfe A Gold Coast 0
Rhys Nicholls A Gold Coast 0

[Bulldog Joe]

Too many of those rookie listed players from the last 3 years are recycled across all clubs.

The best efforts through those not recycled are

Ginnivan - premiership at Collingwood (2020)
Treacy - Fremantle
McVee - Melbourne
Cottrell - Carlton
Young - Richmond
Mitchell - Hawthorn

They seem the only ones looking at making it as regulars.

It is not a very good strike for anyone.

[hujsh]

Too many of those rookie listed players from the last 3 years are recycled across all clubs.

The best efforts through those not recycled are

Ginnivan - premiership at Collingwood (2020)
Treacy - Fremantle
McVee - Melbourne
Cottrell - Carlton
Young - Richmond
Mitchell - Hawthorn

They seem the only ones looking at making it as regulars.

It is not a very good strike for anyone.

So maybe it's not just us? Maybe with the MSD and the covid years impacting development and the reduction in funding during covid and the dilution of talent across 18 teams it's just that much harder to find players that have managed to slip through the crack?

[mjp]

Do the clubs actually know what they're looking for?

The rookie draft isn't going to work if you just pick the 'next best' midfielder who missed out on the main draft. You might get lucky and 'all they needed was a chance'...probs not. If you target a specialist who (or someone who you will TURN INTO A SPECIALIST in your program) then you have a chance.
Ginnivan - Specialist SMALL FORWARD
Treacy - Tall forward.
McVee - Running Defender/lock down.
Cottrell - Winger
Young - Small Forward.
Mitchell - Running Defender

I totally get the 'best available' stuff at the top of the draft. YES - get talented players on your list and they will (hopefully) be able to figure it out. But if you do the same with your rookies, where is this ending? The difference between the 'best' and the 'next' becomes less and less as you go through the draft. So pick someone who has a CLEARLY DEFINED ROLE and a CLEARLY DEFINED POSITION in your squad.

Ginnivan is a classic example of this.