My observation's

[Mantis]

Ok...

I have been lucky enough or maybe unlucky enough to sit through all 3 of our hit-outs for the 09 season, here are a few of my observations. (And yes my views can be quite critical, but I don't think I am making this stuff up):

General stuff

* The game has changed. This rolling zone teams are implementing makes the game almost unwatchable. Probably emphasised in yesterday's game which was played in tough condition's, but it's a horrible game on the eye.

* It's a young man's game - especially forwards. If you play up forward expect to be out-numbered. When the ball is kicked to you expect to lose possession, so expect to chase some tail. If your old expect to become tired very quickly chasing this tail. Player's like Aker, Welsh, Johnson even Hahn are going to waste a lot of energy chasing arse which can't be a good thing.

* You must hit targets - our skill level has been very poor (more on individuals later). Player's who can't kick get found out, well at least they will... Well they should.

* Possessions count for little. We had a stack of the ball yesterday for 5 goals, 5 bloody goals. It wasn't like it was snowing. We handballed and chipped the ball around across the wing and half back on countless occassions, but when we went forward we coughed it up.

* New types of player's are required (The return of the NFL punter) - I discussed with SS yesterday that player's when kicking into the F50 need 'hang time' on there kicks. Meaning, you kick it high to a tall target, really high, while the ball is in the air the troops upfield (cause that's where they are) have time to run down the field to get to the drop of the ball..... Has it come to this??

-----------------

Random player observation's

1. Grant - Has good work ethic, good hands, but his kicking has been very poor. SS pulled out some stat's yesterday that Grant in his final year of TAC Cup footy had a 69% conversion rate and hit the target with 89% of his kicks. SS now believes he is now only a 50:50 chance of hitting his foot, he ain't far from the truth...

I always thought that it was more important to be able to get the ball than to dispose of it as it was easier to teach a player to kick than it is to teach him to find the ball.... That theory is going to be tested.

3. Everitt - His kicking in his first year was great. His kicking last week was pretty good. His kicking yesterday was very poor. We need him to kick the ball well, simple.

4&5. Cross & Boyd - Work hard, courageous, but there roles are exactly what? I have posted similar stuff in the past, but I can't see an offensive role for them in the modern game. They simply don't use the ball well enough not to play in shut down roles.

Cross lines up on the wing, why?? To me he is most effective dishing out handball's from the bottom of packs, am I missing something?

6. Johnson - Couldn't hit the side of a barn yesterday. For me he stays inside 50 now, get that electric zapper out! I thinks it's more important that Johnno has 8 or 10 touches for 2 or 3 goals + assists rather than the 20+ touches he has gotten in the past.

7. Higgins - This will be fun.

Playing like a millionaire when he should be player as a pauper. Picking up loads of 'easy' possessions, but doing little with them.

Unfair statements, maybe?

His tyre's have been pumped up all pre-season and I think he is believing the hype before he has actually achieved anything. The kid is talented, no doubt, but I would like to see less of the flashy stuff (the baulks, the kicks around corner's, the ball showing) and more of the gritty/ hard & efficient (skill wise) football.

9. Gilbee - Please, please don't get injured. You're the only bloke who can kick it.

10. Eagleton - More fun, perhaps??

As you would be aware I am not the no.1 fan in the Nathan Eagleton fan club, far from it, but I do understand what he can bring to the team. The left foot, that's it. Well it's time to saw that thing off!!

If you are a receiving player and your job is to use the ball, then I think it's best that you do it. When you are under minimal pressure and you have to pass the ball 25m to a leading player don't kick it along the ground like you did in the 1st qtr yesterday.

Yeah, he knows how to pick up 'cheap' possessions across half back, but these type's of possessions count for little. He needs to use his kicking going forward and he just isn't or perhaps doesn't.

One bit of play from yesterday sum's him up. The ball is on the wing in a 2 on 2 battle. Eagleton makes a feeble attempt to tackle and ends up on his arse and out of the contest. I turn to SS and comment, 'What can I say?'. SS replies, 'He did better than I expected....' Comedy gold.... Oh, and the Saints player's ran off with the ball, but like that's important?

Would you like a few more?

---------------------

Yeah it's early in this season, real early, but having seen what I have seen I am starting to get concerned about the upcoming season. This rolling zone put's pressure on our foot skills which I am afraid to say are very poor, well at least they have been thus far. Maybe this style will quickly pass, maybe we will be able to move the ball quickly in the regular season, but if this rolling zone is here to stay I am worried that we don't have the player's capable of breaking opposition team's down.

We have been told that the improvement will come from the young player's, and that's probably correct. From our best 22 from last year it is fair to say that Hill, Harbrow (making lot's of mistakes, but not through effort) & Higgins have improved. (Griff probably has too, but we are yet to see it due to him missing a few weeks). From outside the best 22 I have been impressed with Wood, Stack and a few other's who have shown glimpses of things to come. Let's hope they continue to push for selection.

But, what's most concerning to me is the drop off from the senior core. Perhaps I shouldn't even be concerned as the season hasn't even started yet, but the early pre-season form of this group as a whole is worrying. Perhaps the guys I am worried about are behind in their preparation for the upcoming season, perhaps they have little to prove in the pre-season so are just easing their way into it... I guess we will find out in the coming week's/month's.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Thanks for the wrap Mantis, i go and cut my wrist now!

i had a lot of hope with the year ahead and was hoping that we could get a jump on the other teams with early wins.

I too wish Jonno would be left in the forward pocket, as in the past he has a lot of turn overs up the ground.

what are your thoughts on this.

#1 - If we didn't apply a rolling zone and played with a 6 man forward line would that make a difference?

#2 - With the type of crap at the moment would the AFL consider reducing the sides to 16 players on the ground at anyone time, this would make the zone very hard to maintain and taxing on the team?

[LostDoggy]

Cripes, I thought this wouldn't happen here, but it has. Making snap judgements on the dogs form based on a couple of PRACTICE games.

I'll start paying attention to AFL games when Round 1 is played.

[Mantis]

#1 - If we didn't apply a rolling zone and played with a 6 man forward line would that make a difference?

No because the opposition would just put more number's behind the ball



#2 - With the type of crap at the moment would the AFL consider reducing the sides to 16 players on the ground at anyone time, this would make the zone very hard to maintain and taxing on the team?

This problem has been caused by the AFL fart arsing around with the rules. It is now almost impossible for a defender to play one on one with his opponent. So to counter act this teams don't allow one on one contests in the forward 50.

[Scorlibo]

Thanks for the wrap Mantis, much appreciated.

I think we'll find that the skill level jumps back up to what it usually is for the players though and players such as Higgins will look a lot less silly when trying to do those millionaire things.

As Eade says, they've got a month to just throw balls at them and make sure the skill level gets back to what it was.

As for the rolling zones crap I hope the clubs are just experimenting in the pre-season and don't actually implement it in the real thing because in our case at least it turns it into a whole new ball game, which in turn changes the roles of players and that's not something we want to do - why would we want to completely change our game after finishing 3rd the previous year?! It seems like an awful lot of trouble clubs are going to to mimic Hawthorn who we beat and were in front of for a lot of last year.

[GVGjr]

My observations of what you have written Mantis is that you are way too harsh on Higgins and way to appreciative of Harbrow's work ethic when his decision making and skills still have a long way to go. In a game where skills, especially kicking skills, and decision making are now very important I'm not sure why you are still beating the Harbrow drum so vigorously. I'm happy to have him in side but he is still wearing the L plates from what I have seen.

Higgins has primarily played as a forward since he started with the club so if he is picking up cheap possessions in the midfield now I think it's just a lesson that he needs to learn rather than any fundamental flaw.

Regarding Everitt, I started to notice that the polished skills and poise that he displayed in his first season had eroded a bit last year and if they haven't improved so far this year he might struggle to find a regular spot.

Cross and Boyd are still valuable performers in my opinion and the thing most coaches seek is a consistency week in week out with their mid tier players and to that end I think they meet that requirement. I tend to agree that Eade must define their roles a bit clearer though.

Not sure which of the senior core you are referring to but I'd guess you have Johnson well within your sights but for me the real issue is more about whey we recruited guys of the vintage of Hudson, Akermanis and Welsh when we knew we also had Eagleton contract to complete. Adjusting to just an aging Johnson would be far easier to do if we didn't have the other guys as well. Other than that, the list isn't that old.

You would think guys like Hahn, Giansiracusa and Murphy will all continue to improve over the next month and hopefully guys like Ward, Stack and Hill can find another level.

I think there are some cause for concern but a month a return to form can happen quickly enough.

[bornadog]

Cripes, I thought this wouldn't happen here, but it has. Making snap judgements on the dogs form based on a couple of PRACTICE games.

I'll start paying attention to AFL games when Round 1 is played.

DexterT, couldn't agree more.

I have been watching footy since I was 4 years old and I am now in my early 50's, so nearly 50 years of footy and I can tell you, I have been to one NAB game and two practise matches and one of those was in 2003 when we beat the premiers that year (last game before season proper).

Practise matches are training runs, time to experiment, time to try different game plans, time to get bloody fit and hone the skills.

Mantis, you took up a lot of energy writing what you did, if it was mid season, I would be worried, but man, lets wait till the season starts.

[Before I Die]

While I agree that just about all the negative descriptions attributed to yesterday's game are true, I actually left the game feeling quite upbeat about the future and looking forward to the upcoming season.

Why? You may ask.

Well, no-one was injured in the game and barring injury our full list should be available Round 1. I don't believe our core of senior players and prime movers have lost their skills over summer, so I am not greatly concerned about their pre-season form.
I primarily went to see our new players (particulary Cordy), our developing players and new position trials.
I thought Tiller gave a solid performance at CHB. Higgins, though not there yet, will be very good in the mid-field. Lynch has the potential to be a dynamic small forward. Henry White is very fast and uses the ball well (based on one piece of play, so perhaps a bit premature). Everitt now has the body to play KP (though not yet the form) and Minson displayed very clean hands in a number of plays.
Unfortunately Cordy and Grant showed very little, but I think their credentials have already been certified and the delivery into the forward line gave them nothing.

So health wise we are ahead of this time last year. Hudson and Welsh have 12 months under their belt at the club, which should help. And Clayton's last two drafts for the Bulldogs may yet end up competing for the title of his best ever.

By the way, the game was crap to watch.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I think we all understand that the real stuff is still a few weeks off, but I can't help but feel a little worried too, because EVERY game of football played this year has had this rolling zone type of footy. Perhaps they're all willing to try it out in the NAB Cup, but boy has it been ugly - not until some last quarters have we actually seen entertaining contests.

Like Mantis, I have a concern for our senior players too. They all play up forward, and from what we've seen so far, they're going to struggle if they're made to chase all day because they basically become ineffective. Our whole running, carrying the football and leading game plan has been non-existant thus far - I really can't recall one passage of play where we've looked good. If this is where footy is headed then we look like we're in a bit of trouble.

I'm a big fan of Harbrow and even Higgins, but they both have been woeful with their decision making firstly, and their disposal too. They've been able to find the ball and generate run at times, but they both are trying to do WAY too much and because of this, they're turning it over 9/10 times. I have no doubt they'll improve and they're both very talented young players, but the coaching staff need to start trying to rectify this because for all their efforts so far, they've been far too costly.

Disappointing with Everitt too - his kicking skills were terrible. He turned it over almost every single time, and that's not a lie. He maybe hit the target two or three times? Either way, he looks a completely different player to the one that we saw in his first year.

It's only early days so I'm not sounding the alarm bells, but certainly we have some cause for concern.

[GetDimmaBack]

Ahhh, practice match form.
Last week they were all champions, this week the side is full of duds...

That's the glory of footy in February!

[LostDoggy]

In fairness the thread is Observations not final judgement. Footy is a funny game that is all I will say. I will front up strap in and go along for the ride.

[OLD SCRAGGer]

GUYS, GUYS, PLEASE ..... IT'S STILL ONLY FEBRUARY, A BIT EARLY TO THROUW IN THE TOWELL AIN'T IT:confused:

[Dry Rot]

I think we all understand that the real stuff is still a few weeks off, but I can't help but feel a little worried too, because EVERY game of football played this year has had this rolling zone type of footy

I haven't seen much footy this year - what do you mean by a rolling zone? A midfield flood wherever the ball is? How is it different to what the Swans do?

[Mantis]

I am not predicting doom & gloom, well not yet, and as muttley picked up it's a observation thread NOT a 'bagging' thread... . And yes they are just my observations.

Sitting through yesterday's game was painful, not because of the result or because our youngsters showed little it was, as I pointed because our senior players were very poor. Hopefully they can turn it around when the proper stuff starts, but on their performances yesterday & in the first couple of games they have a fair way to go. (And the senior players I'm referring to are Johnson, Cross, Boyd, Lake, Cross, Eagleton & Gia whose decision making and skill execution have been less than satisfactory)

[lemmon]

I haven't seen much footy this year - what do you mean by a rolling zone? A midfield flood wherever the ball is? How is it different to what the Swans do?

No I think he was more reffering to the 18 man zone Hawthorn are famous for, dubbed by the media Clarko's cluster. I hope teams dont bring this crap into the regular season, terrible to watch.

[Before I Die]

I haven't seen much footy this year - what do you mean by a rolling zone? A midfield flood wherever the ball is? How is it different to what the Swans do?

As with all zones/floods there are variations, but picture a grid of twelve players, four wide and three deep all about 20 metres apart. You can't kick over it, any pass within it has to be absolutely pin point, and any player with the ball inside it has four opponents within 10 metres bearing down on them with another wave outside that. As soon as the ball turns over the players on the grid points become overlapping free runners. It is called a rolling zone because it rolls from side to side if you try to go around it. It also helps if the players you leave in your forward line are Franklin, Roughead and Rioli. You leave one or two in the backline and have a ruckman follow the ball.

Unlike the Swans flood which falls back inside the 50 metre arc, the rolling zone sits between the arcs.

[hujsh]

I am not predicting doom & gloom, well not yet, and as muttley picked up it's a observation thread NOT a 'bagging' thread... . And yes they are just my observations.

Sitting through yesterday's game was painful, not because of the result or because our youngsters showed little it was, as I pointed because our senior players were very poor. Hopefully they can turn it around when the proper stuff starts, but on their performances yesterday & in the first couple of games they have a fair way to go. (And the senior players I'm referring to are Johnson, Cross, Boyd, Lake, Cross, Eagleton & Gia whose decision making and skill execution have been less than satisfactory)

Was another player supposed to be a Cross or did you forget you wrote him once.

Or was he that bad he needed two mentions?

[Dry Rot]

No I think he was more reffering to the 18 man zone Hawthorn are famous for, dubbed by the media Clarko's cluster. I hope teams dont bring this crap into the regular season, terrible to watch.


As with all zones/floods there are variations, but picture a grid of twelve players, four wide and three deep all about 20 metres apart. You can't kick over it, any pass within it has to be absolutely pin point, and any player with the ball inside it has four opponents within 10 metres bearing down on them with another wave outside that. As soon as the ball turns over the players on the grid points become overlapping free runners. It is called a rolling zone because it rolls from side to side if you try to go around it. It also helps if the players you leave in your forward line are Franklin, Roughead and Rioli. You leave one or two in the backline and have a ruckman follow the ball.

Unlike the Swans flood which falls back inside the 50 metre arc, the rolling zone sits between the arcs.

Thanks.

Presume it is so deep that a quick booming kick won't clear it and open up opportunities for the forwards. Otherwise I suppose you need a good lead-up tall contested mark taking CHF?

We could be in real trouble with everyone does this stuff.

[bornadog]

Sitting through yesterday's game was painful,

Thats why I don't go to practise matches;)

[Sockeye Salmon]

Thanks.

Presume it is so deep that a quick booming kick won't clear it and open up opportunities for the forwards. Otherwise I suppose you need a good lead-up tall contested mark taking CHF?

We could be in real trouble with everyone does this stuff.

A good CHF wouldn't hurt, but wouldn't necessarily be the answer either.

4 defenders are within 10 metres. Kick the ball long to him and he'll be swamped, they've all got plenty of time to get there.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Rolling Zone

Didnt we pick the rolling zone apart with clean skills when we beat Hawthorn in Tassie last year?

If so, then the answer to the rolling flood has to be clean foot skills and ability to hit targets.

Smaller quicker forwards may be the answer to get in between the zone. We have a few of those.

Personally, I reckon we are better equipped to handle the rolling zone than some other teams. (as long as our foot skills are up to scratch :))

[LostDoggy]

No because the opposition would just put more number's behind the ball



This problem has been caused by the AFL fart arsing around with the rules. It is now almost impossible for a defender to play one on one with his opponent. So to counter act this teams don't allow one on one contests in the forward 50.

Spot on Mantis this is the smartest observation of have seen on this website recently.
The ridiculous soft hands in the back rule has turned into a monster with this rolling zone
or flood not allowing one on one contests anymore let alone in the forward line.

Another thing we can see is an increase in is rib,spleen & kidney damage to defenders
who stand infront of forwards who will lead with their knee rather than hands!
A la Fevola!
Do you think KB will admit they made a mistake? no chance!
The stubborn old fool still hasnt been back to tigerland has he?

Rules comittee is a joke they are continually making rules to justify their existence & ego!
Im pupdog & thats my take! (get it?)

[Bulldog4life]

Spot on Mantis this is the smartest observation of have seen on this website recently.
The ridiculous soft hands in the back rule has turned into a monster with this rolling zone
or flood not allowing one on one contests anymore let alone in the forward line.

Another thing we can see is an increase in is rib,spleen & kidney damage to defenders
who stand infront of forwards who will lead with their knee rather than hands!
A la Fevola!
Do you think KB will admit they made a mistake? no chance!
The stubborn old fool still hasnt been back to tigerland has he?

Rules comittee is a joke they are continually making rules to justify their existence & ego!
Im pupdog & thats my take! (get it?)

Yes he has.

[LostDoggy]

Re: The rolling zone..

What amazes me more than everyone jumping on the bandwagon and worrying about how to play it is that in 150 years, no one has ever tried it before! A zonal defence is as basic a field defence as they come, after man-on-man, and has been in most team field sports for over 50 years.

The fact that footy has been 'get man on man' for so long and tactically conservative means that old hat tactics like this one become 'innovations'. The saving grace, then, is that the evolution of defensive tactics has been well-documented in many other field sports, so IF THEY WANT TO, AFL coaches can study up and learn how other sports have evolved through ultra-defensive periods and what kind of offensive tactics can break it up. After all, this supposed 'cluster' is no more than an adaptation of a basic 4-4-2, or 4-1-3-1-1 zone in soccer.

Wallet has obviously tried to implement a few things (players moving constantly in between the 'lines' of zone players, handballing through the zone) but he doesn't have the cattle to implement it properly. I'm not sure we do yet -- the key ingredients are positional sense, intelligent decision making, and clean skills (especially handballing skills). I don't think most teams have the type of players required, so it will be ugly for a while..

BUT, I think in the long term this 'cluster' will be good for footy as it will force teams and players to evolve, just as soccer players evolved in the 90s to become far more technically skilled in order to break down dour defensive tactics, giving rise to some of the most gifted attacking players and teams in the history of the game.

Imagine if in 10 years time the average AFL player was a thinking, mobile player with lightning, clean disposal, and an ability to beat players on the run (like Ryan Griffen) in order to create 2-on-1 situations and and spot up players on leads 9 times out of 10. The game would be a great spectacle.

But the rules committee HAS TO LEAVE THE GAME ALONE AND LET IT EVOLVE AT ITS OWN PACE.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Imagine if in 10 years time the average AFL player was a thinking, mobile player with lightning, clean disposal, and an ability to beat players on the run (like Ryan Griffen) in order to create 2-on-1 situations and and spot up players on leads 9 times out of 10. The game would be a great spectacle.



More likely that in 10 years time we'll have finals decided by away goals or penalties.




But the rules committee HAS TO LEAVE THE GAME ALONE AND LET IT EVOLVE AT ITS OWN PACE.

No, that's what they should have done.

What they should do now is admit how wrong they were and CHANGE THE ****ING RULES BACK.

[Before I Die]

What they should do now is admit how wrong they were and CHANGE THE ****ING RULES BACK.

All those in favour say aye.

AYE!!!

[The Coon Dog]

Mantis, you raise some valid points, some even echoed by the senior coach after Friday night's game.

I guess there's 2 school of thought; on the one hand, it's only a practice match, no points are on offer & there's time to rectify any deficiencies. On the other hand the season is fast approaching & there are worrying signs, which seemed to be much more magnified on Friday night.

What's the answer? Somewhere in the middle I suspect.

There is enough skill in this side that those fundamental flaws we have been seeing should hopefully be ironed out over the next 3 weeks.

Obviously the likes of a fit Cooney, Murphy & Akermanis should alleviate some concerns.

Hard to gauge the impact too of teams not playing finals starting their pre season a little earlier & our pre season this time where an improvement to core strength/fitness prevailed at the expense of ball work.

With the older players making the same mistakes I think we just have to accept that that's part of their package & live with it; you're not going to improve Eagleton's kicking on his right foot now.

I'm not overly concerned at this stage, but Rocket will have to act quickly & be ruthless early if the same culprits are guilty of the same mistakes.

Appreciate the honest assessment too Mantis. I think we all know where you're coming from & only want to see us at our best each & every week.

[LostDoggy]

Great effort by the Doggies! They had a hit out in the heat and practiced their skills in dealing with the FLOODING tactics employed by the opposition, (Junior Footy stuff, when you hit the front put everyone on the ball) "fair dinkum" can you believe we have to pay good money to watch this rubbish.
Our guys had a hit out, used 30 players, suffered no major injuries and can look forward to seeing some new faces in our team for 2009.

[LostDoggy]

Should we be worried?

Pros:
played a good game against Essendon who were nearly full strength to lose by a point with at least 7 of our best 22 out.
We did play finals footy so our season is behind most other teams.
We still have nearly a month to go before the real stuff starts to work hard on our skills.
We are seeing some players of our future getting a chance.

Cons:
I believe there was an expectation from the club that we beat Essendon.
St Kilda also played finals footy and by all accounts beat us easily.
We had most of our senior players back in - some who were terrible.
Ala 2007, a lot of our players have had an injury interrupted pre season icnluding Cooney.

The key question for me, is can our players get back to the kind of football we have come to expect. I for one, don't care if we lose some early games, as long as we hit our straps coming up to the end of the year - no more fade outs from round 16 onwards.

[aker39]

Cripes, I thought this wouldn't happen here, but it has.



What, someone giving an in depth analysis of his observations of 3 games that he has seen live.


If you have been around here long enough, you'll know that Mantis has some very strong opinions, but he will always back them up with reasons, just like he has here.

Try and find that "somewhere else"

[LostDoggy]

I honestly don't take anything out of pre season games, it all counts for nothing when the real thing starts.

You just have to look at previous seasons to know that.

NAB Cup

2005 Carlton (finished 16th)
2006 Geelong (finished 10th)
2007 Carlton (finished 15th)

I honestly don't think anything you see in pre season counts, all it's about is running players into match fitness & that's all.

[alwaysadog]

I am not predicting doom & gloom, well not yet, and as muttley picked up it's a observation thread NOT a 'bagging' thread... . And yes they are just my observations.

I could take issue with you about this and that Mantis, but I think the general impression you reflect is valid. It's not all doom and gloom, but as of now there's very little evidence of the hot to trot super fit bunch who have made the significant strides, that we expected.

I don't think the way we rotated we could have won but I didn't like our lack of competitiveness. It well may be that in terms of match readiness we have been working on things which will pay off in the longer term. We have to hope so. As often happens some sides peak for round one and then flutter briefly... and some improve as the season unfolds.

As you said the observations so far haven't been flash hot. We just have to hope that we start to heat up over the next few weeks and make round one on the boil and stay there.

[bornadog]

I honestly don't take anything out of pre season games, it all counts for nothing when the real thing starts.

You just have to look at previous seasons to know that.

NAB Cup

2005 Carlton (finished 16th)
2006 Geelong (finished 10th)
2007 Carlton (finished 15th)

I honestly don't think anything you see in pre season counts, all it's about is running players into match fitness & that's all.

Carlton beat Hawthorn today, wow, hooray they are going to win the premiership this year:D

[LostDoggy]

More likely that in 10 years time we'll have finals decided by away goals or penalties.




No, that's what they should have done.

What they should do now is admit how wrong they were and CHANGE THE ****ING RULES BACK.

What's absolutely funny is that after I went away after writing that thread, I thought almost exactly the same thing -- I was thinking: then games will become low scoring affairs with scorelines of 1.1.7 - 2.1.13.

Not all that fanciful: In the first 70 years or so of soccer after it was codified in the 1880s, scores of 17 - 12, or 13 - 10 were common, very high scoring. As the game evolved defences improved to the point where now the average goals per game hovers around 2 to 2.5 (depending on the league).

AFL has never had that evolution of possession and zonal defence until very recently. I believe the first real game of 21st century possession footy was Sydney vs. Brisbane, round 1 2004 [I think]). Brisbane were reigning champions and Sydney was playing their first full season under Roos, and they came out determined to hang on to the ball and keep the scores as low as possible (lost by less than a goal in a very slow, low scoring affair). If some teams are intent on using these tactics (like Roos and Sydney were) change is inevitable -- English soccer teams refused to evolve for a long time, even as teams like Italy and Hungary were starting to play short-passing, possession football, and England were torn apart many a time when they rejoined international competition. English football (national team, not their mutinational club sides) has been catching up tactically ever since.

I totally agree with the no-farking-about-with-the-rules-in-the-first-place principle. Good luck (really!) changing them back. Behind you all the way -- just let us know where to sign the petition!

[alwaysadog]

What's absolutely funny is that after I went away after writing that thread, I thought almost exactly the same thing -- I was thinking: then games will become low scoring affairs with scorelines of 1.1.7 - 2.1.13.

Not all that fanciful: In the first 70 years or so of soccer after it was codified in the 1880s, scores of 17 - 12, or 13 - 10 were common, very high scoring. As the game evolved defences improved to the point where now the average goals per game hovers around 2 to 2.5 (depending on the league).

AFL has never had that evolution of possession and zonal defence until very recently. I believe the first real game of 21st century possession footy was Sydney vs. Brisbane, round 1 2004 [I think]). Brisbane were reigning champions and Sydney was playing their first full season under Roos, and they came out determined to hang on to the ball and keep the scores as low as possible (lost by less than a goal in a very slow, low scoring affair). If some teams are intent on using these tactics (like Roos and Sydney were) change is inevitable -- English soccer teams refused to evolve for a long time, even as teams like Italy and Hungary were starting to play short-passing, possession football, and England were torn apart many a time when they rejoined international competition. English football (national team, not their mutinational club sides) has been catching up tactically ever since.

I totally agree with the no-farking-about-with-the-rules-in-the-first-place principle. Good luck (really!) changing them back. Behind you all the way -- just let us know where to sign the petition!

One thing that is a constant in all this is the AFL's determination to micromanage the game in the direction they want; they would say hasten and assist its development.

To ask for less tinkering or an undoing of recent changes is not only anti axiomatic; it would tantamount to accepting on their part, that they have been wrong.

Now that is not possible, recall George W's difficulty at his final press conference. He not only had no regrets he couldn't think of things he would have done differently. Thus spake Zarathustra!

If the changes so far have not produced a non-stop all action, high-scoring game then dig a bunker and brace yourself for more changes. You ain't seen nothing yet.

[LostDoggy]

One thing that seems to have become abundantly clear with the recent "evolution" of the game is that 3 things- disposal skills, the importance of players who can evasively 'break the lines', and forward defensive pressure seem to be essential to success, and not just 'bonuses' as they might have been 3 years ago.
In terms of the doggies I'm thinking of Griffen as a line breaker and penetrating, fast through the air kick and why we all seem to rest alot on his shoulders, Eagleton- whose previously game changing disposal skills have appreciably declined, and now faces derision from many of us when he stuffs up- Johnson and Akermanis who despite their sublime skills and footy intelligence can nonetheless expose the team when there are turnovers.
In fact "ageing" footballers are at higher risk these days possibly because: they are less adaptable to new game plans, and this, added to their inevitably reduced athleticism means their "turn around" time results in reduced effectiveness
(ie: ability to recover from changes when a pattern of play is disrupted).
I'm wondering whether modern footy is increasingly becoming a dictatorship of youth.

All a bit pseudo- analytical I know- but I suspect thats why so many people seem to be recently ambivalent about Johnson and Akermanis and their value to the team. Both have clearly won games off their own boot throughout their mature careers, but is there a trade off the other way worth paying for?
If its not worth the trade off, I think the game is at risk of becoming 'strategized' out of existence.

[LostDoggy]

Good read, Mantis, well written.

There aren't too many things that I would disagree in this piece. Having had the displeasure of watching all 3 of our games as well, 2 live and one on fox replay, I can say that we have a lot of work to on our skill level and decision making before now and the begining of the season.

I barely watched the second half, we looked like we weren't trying and I spent o most of the half chatting to mates and St Kilda supporters abouyt how bad the spectacle was!

I didn't interpret this piece as Mantis predicting gloom and doom for the season, I think he has outlined the obvious deficiancies in style and what we need to improve on. Nobody that has been there over the last 3 weeks can honestly say that we are setting the world on fire. We look like a team that hasn't had a lot of footy in our hands of late. Mantis has given a snap shot of where we are at right now and most of what he has commented on is indicative of some long standing problems we've had.

Gee whiz, super impressed with the back 3 of Tiller, Callan and Addison. I really think we are building a very solid backline, with the inclusion of a fit Williams??????? we will be very strong back there. Our skills out of defence are atrocious, without Gilbs back there we look bad. Everitt kicking is hopeless at the moment and his choice of targetr is severly lacking in advantage to the team.

Higgins needs find more time when he has the ball, he gets leather poinsoning but uses the ball poorly. He looks rushed when he gets the ball and his left peg is horrible. He needs to slow down a bit and hit his targets, having said that he is only a kid and will be the captain of our club down the track.

[bulldogsman]

Hargrave is very important to. He isn't quite as good a kick, but at least he takes the pressure off Gilbee and it can release Gilbee to play further up the ground

[Mantis]

Hargrave is very important to. He isn't quite as good a kick, but at least he takes the pressure off Gilbee and it can release Gilbee to play further up the ground

That's probably something that will be and should be looked at.

With the development of Callan, Addison & Tiller as defenders and hopefully Everitt & Williams we look ok in defence with Hargrave, Morris & Lake as the constants.

Gilbee looks to have fine downed this year so hopefully he could play off a wing and use his exceptional kicking skills going forward. It would severely weaken the skill level in the back half, but hopefully the younger guys down there relish the challenge because they have all shown the ability to use the ball well.

[azabob]

Hargrave is very important to. He isn't quite as good a kick, but at least he takes the pressure off Gilbee and it can release Gilbee to play further up the ground

As strange as it may sound, I dont think Gilbee would suceed in the midfield. I dont think he would be able to handle the physical pressure and presence of opposition players around him. I know that sounds strange as he doesn't panic in defence but I think its a different type of pressure down there, you know where the opposisiton is coming from but in the midfield you dont.

[GVGjr]

As strange as it may sound, I dont think Gilbee would suceed in the midfield. I dont think he would be able to handle the physical pressure and presence of opposition players around him. I know that sounds strange as he doesn't panic in defence but I think its a different type of pressure down there, you know where the opposisiton is coming from but in the midfield you dont.

It's a valid observation and one that has been bandied around here a fair bit but I still don't necessarily agree with it. The quality of his kicking to the forwards would result in some easy goals and well worth a trial.

[azabob]

It's a valid observation and one that has been bandied around here a fair bit but I still don't necessarily agree with it. The quality of his kicking to the forwards would result in some easy goals and well worth a trial.

Yep I cant see the harm in trying it. Or maybe play him more off half back line where he will play majority in the middle anyhow rather than play him as the 3rd tall defender. But that all depends on wether Williams, Everitt or Tiller stand up and play as the third defender. At this stage for whatever reason injuries, poor form only Tiller seems to be making a case for this position from what I have read on this forum in pre season games.

[bornadog]

Yep I cant see the harm in trying it. Or maybe play him more off half back line where he will play majority in the middle anyhow rather than play him as the 3rd tall defender. But that all depends on wether Williams, Everitt or Tiller stand up and play as the third defender. At this stage for whatever reason injuries, poor form only Tiller seems to be making a case for this position from what I have read on this forum in pre season games.

Like a Hodge role.

[LostDoggy]

Carlton beat Hawthorn today, wow, hooray they are going to win the premiership this year:D

Exactly my point.

[LostDoggy]

More likely that in 10 years time we'll have finals decided by away goals or penalties.




No, that's what they should have done.

What they should do now is admit how wrong they were and CHANGE THE ****ING RULES BACK.

Rules tinkering is backfiring: Roos
Michael Cowley, Sydney | March 4, 2009

SYDNEY coach Paul Roos says the AFL's desire to speed up the game by continually tinkering with rules each season has backfired and been the catalyst behind what critics are calling ugly, defence-based, football.

After the rolling-zone defence proved successful for Hawthorn in last year's grand final win over Geelong, many teams have adopted a similar strategy in the pre-season.

It was only four years ago that Roos's team was being tagged with a similar moniker by chief executive Andrew Demetriou but then because they played hard, man-on-man, defensive-style football.

"It is good for a change that we're not being called ugly," Roos said jokingly. "The ironic thing is that the two grand finals that were the most one-on-one contests and the most physical, and with no flooding and no zones, were the '05 and '06 ones and we were criticised in 2005 for ugly footy.

"My concern is some of the rule changes are starting to catch up with us a little bit. In a sense, the lawmakers have got what they want, but that was my point all along, you had better be careful what you wish for because this is what you're going to get. A lot of the rule changes have contributed to what we are starting to see now.

"With all the rule changes it has lent itself to zoning and flooding, and that's probably the disappointing thing, and now people are talking about changing more rules to stop what's going on now. A number of people have said all along, let the game evolve, but unfortunately they have tampered with the rules, which has now meant there is greater incentive for zoning and that's the frustrating thing.

"Blokes now have less time with the footy. Three or four years you could have 20 seconds to make a decision then they brought it down to 15 seconds, then to 10 seconds. You just haven't got time now. You haven't got time to go back and take your kick and hit a target. Basically, the ball is in motion so often because the umpires are calling play on so quickly.

"And the kicking backwards (which is now play on) is a disaster and falls right into the trap of the zoning teams all the time. Then you have the rushed behind rule (a free kick is now awarded for intentionally rushed behinds), you can't rush it through, so what are teams going to do? If you could rush it through, teams are more likely to go man on man, but you can't rush it through so they just set up in their zone and let you kick it back in.

"If you ask me I'd wind the clock back and change all the rules back to what they were, but they are not going to do that, so I think you've got to weather the storm and see what happens."
Roos says his side will not use the tactic, because they are "not set up for it as a team".

He agreed with Collingwood's Mick Malthouse and Essendon mentor Matthew Knights that "you can't change a style based on what someone else does if you can't deliver the style".

"Some clubs will do it I suspect it will be about 50-50, eight teams will zone and eight teams won't but what every club will do is try to find a way through it and we've been working really hard to find a way through it," Roos said.

Roos confirmed the Swans will field their strongest line-up of the pre-season this Saturday against the Western Bulldogs, with Brett Kirk, Paul Bevan and Heath Grundy back after a week's break, and Lewis Roberts-Thomson returns from injury.

[Bulldog Revolution]

The Sundance kid has hit the nail on the head

All the swans coaching staff were in attendance watching us last Friday

[bulldogsman]

By Ben Broad 1:45 PM Wed 04 March, 2009

Western Bulldogs coach Rodney Eade says 'zoning' could be here to stay

INCREASINGLY concerned by the growing trend of the rolling zone, Western Bulldogs coach Rodney Eade could seek a meeting with the League's lawmakers to table his ideas on how the game can overcome "ugly football".

This year's pre-season matches have been dominated by teams employing full-ground zones, similar to the one used by Hawthorn in its run to the 2008 premiership.

Eade believes the defensive tactic spells an issue for the game.

"I must admit I get concerned when we have more possessions, more handballs, less inside 50s and less goals," he said after training at Whitten Oval on Wednesday morning.

"That’s a worrying trend as a lover of the game. That has nothing to do with the Western Bulldogs or coaching a team, this is where the game’s headed."

His concern is strengthened by the belief it is no passing fad.

"Flooding's been in now for 10 to 13 years … and I always thought that was going to evolve. It has, but I’ve got concerns that I don’t think this will evolve.

"I think it may be stuck with us for a while."

Last week Eade described his side's NAB Challenge match against St Kilda as one of the worst he had ever seen.

While lamenting the Dogs' skills in the hot and windy conditions, he admitted the zone was used by both sides.

Eade said all teams were likely to employ the tactic this season, however, he doesn’t believe it's good for football's long-term future.

"I’m more looking at the aesthetics of the game, so that teams who crack it and finish in the top four and average 12 goals a game, is that what we want?" he said.

"I think the game at the moment, the last three or four years, is probably the best it’s ever been.

"[There’s been] a lot of continuous footy, a lot of high speed and at the same time a lot of goals … I just wouldn’t like to see it totally defensive."

If the defensive mindset is retained for the home-and-away rounds, Eade said he had already considered ways to combat it.

"I’ve got an idea on how it could be solved … I don’t know if it’s got any holes in it, it probably has," he said.

"But I’ll talk to some powers that be and put my thoughts down on paper."

He also rejected claims that recently-introduced rule changes had led to the way football was now being played.

"The rule changes have got nothing to do with people implementing zones," he said.

"We could have had no rule changes ever and the zone could still work … so people who say, 'Oh there’s too many rule changes', it’s got nothing to do with the way the footy’s going to be played this year.

"Let’s not confuse and muddy the waters [by saying] that previous rule changes have anything to do with the way footy’s being played at the moment. It’s not."

[bornadog]

We don't want more rules to change the rolling zones because people think its ugly footy. It is just part of the of the game evolving and coaches changing tactics etc. In time coaches will find ways around it.

[soupman]

Regarding the rule changes and their impact, I believe they are encouraging flooding.

The rushed behind rule: Means that you can't rush behinds, so you need as much support from teammates in defence so that if you are caught deep in defence and under pressure you have someone other than the goal umpire to pass it too. This means team throw back as many players as possible to help eachother out and prevent this situation.

The play on if you kick it backwards: Means player have less time to think about options, and are under pressure more often. This means teams will try and get more numbers back to try and support eachother, in the form of either protection or options.

The 20m kick: Means teams either have to go long or backwards. The opposition can counter this by setting up zones around any targets 20-45m away, meaning you can't run it through the zone, it can't be chipped through the zone and it can't be bombed long.

These rules all contribute to flooding and zonal football, but for some stupid reason they are being trialled. No wonder its getting uglier.

[Dry Rot]

Yeah it's early in this season, real early, but having seen what I have seen I am starting to get concerned about the upcoming season. This rolling zone put's pressure on our foot skills which I am afraid to say are very poor, well at least they have been thus far. Maybe this style will quickly pass, maybe we will be able to move the ball quickly in the regular season, but if this rolling zone is here to stay I am worried that we don't have the player's capable of breaking opposition team's down.

We have been told that the improvement will come from the young player's, and that's probably correct. From our best 22 from last year it is fair to say that Hill, Harbrow (making lot's of mistakes, but not through effort) & Higgins have improved. (Griff probably has too, but we are yet to see it due to him missing a few weeks). From outside the best 22 I have been impressed with Wood, Stack and a few other's who have shown glimpses of things to come. Let's hope they continue to push for selection.

But, what's most concerning to me is the drop off from the senior core. Perhaps I shouldn't even be concerned as the season hasn't even started yet, but the early pre-season form of this group as a whole is worrying. Perhaps the guys I am worried about are behind in their preparation for the upcoming season, perhaps they have little to prove in the pre-season so are just easing their way into it... I guess we will find out in the coming week's/month's.

Now I've seen this first hand.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Still a few weeks away from Round 1, but surely some improvement should of been evident by now. The fact that our skills are still woeful and our forward line dynsfunctional isn't exactly a good sign.

To say we're behind in preparation is making excuses too. Geelong are doing fine, Hawthorn went OK in their first few games.

We are carrying several underdone players which will mean it's going to be a slow start to the season, but I'm not enjoying the continual reports of our dreadful disposal.

[Dry Rot]

We are carrying several underdone players which will mean it's going to be a slow start to the season, but I'm not enjoying the continual reports of our dreadful disposal.

It was terrible on every level tonight. Missing targets, turnovers without any pressure, silly decision making - why the **** kick to a Dogs player with 3 Swans on him all the time?

Lucky we didn't really have a forward line*, otherwise they'd be really pissed off with the crap delivery they received.

*It was good to see Lake go forward in the last quarter.

[becmatty]

Mantis, I have read many of your postings in the past with interest.

This is a stinky one from you with many over critical assessments and unwarranted negativty. My advice: go watch some cricket and then come back refreshed for the season proper.

[Dry Rot]

This is a stinky one from you with many over critical assessments and unwarranted negativty.

I have only seen Dogs v Dons on TV and now Dogs v Swans live.

The observations about poor skills, disposals etc are warranted ATM. The Swans have only had one week's more preparation than us, yet really showed us up. In the first half we couldn't win much ball and when we did, we used it very poorly even without pressure.

Curiously with all our fitness work, the Swans looked a lot fitter too.

[Mantis]

Mantis, I have read many of your postings in the past with interest.

This is a stinky one from you with many over critical assessments and unwarranted negativty. My advice: go watch some cricket and then come back refreshed for the season proper.

Sorry you feel that way. Some of my comments may have been a little harsh, but my comments were simply based on what I had observed in our opening hit-outs.

If you would like to follow up with some further discussion please send me a PM as others probably don't want to hear more of my stinky thoughts.

[whythelongface]

Geez we are a funny mob - one can tell that we have been starved of any success for years upon years. Are we that downtrodden that we seriously look at 'practice games' as a fair reprensentation of the year ahead. Comments such as:

"I am concerned about the following season"

"The pre-season form from the group is worrying"

"We look like we are in a bit of trouble"

"We have some cause for concern"

"We could be in trouble"

These are just some of the comments that have been posted in this thread about our upcoming season based on observations from these practice matches. Can we please get some perspective of what 'practice matches' really mean!!!

The season is long and I would rather have us peaking when it matters rather than some practice match in the outskirts of Sydney in early March.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

These are just some of the comments that have been posted in this thread about our upcoming season based on observations from these practice matches. Can we please get some perspective of what 'practice matches' really mean!!!

The season is long and I would rather have us peaking when it matters rather than some practice match in the outskirts of Sydney in early March.

We've all explained a number of times that YES, we realise they're practice matches and that it's early in the season. Whilst we EXPECT to turn it around, I think you're being downright naive if you don't care how a) the game is being played and b) how we're disposing of the ball/our dysfunctional forward line.

Nobody's pressing alarm buttons, but nobody wants to see a repeat of 2007 and pre-season or not, our disposal and decision making hasn't been up to scratch.

[whythelongface]

We've all explained a number of times that YES, we realise they're practice matches and that it's early in the season. Whilst we EXPECT to turn it around, I think you're being downright naive if you don't care how a) the game is being played and b) how we're disposing of the ball/our dysfunctional forward line.

Nobody's pressing alarm buttons, but nobody wants to see a repeat of 2007 and pre-season or not, our disposal and decision making hasn't been up to scratch.

Hardly naive. More an understanding of what practice matches are all about.

At this stage it matters little how the game is being played - as for our dysfunctional forward line we are all aware of our limitations, our strengths and weaknesses - surely practice games are the times to experiment with different setups to see if they do/ don't work. We made the Preliminary Final last year with a so-called 'dysfunctional' forward line. If Eade is looking at changing our setup (with an expectation of taking the next step) then surely the time to experiment is in practice matches leading up to the season proper, rather than experimenting during the season itself.

Honestly you need to have some belief in both the coaching staff as to how they are preparing our side for the season.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Hardly naive. More an understanding of what practice matches are all about.

At this stage it matters little how the game is being played - as for our dysfunctional forward line we are all aware of our limitations, our strengths and weaknesses - surely practice games are the times to experiment with different setups to see if they do/ don't work. We made the Preliminary Final last year with a so-called 'dysfunctional' forward line. If Eade is looking at changing our setup (with an expectation of taking the next step) then surely the time to experiment is in practice matches leading up to the season proper, rather than experimenting during the season itself.

Honestly you need to have some belief in both the coaching staff as to how they are preparing our side for the season.

I am typically the most optimistic of supporters but right now I'm shitting like a big, black Alsatian.

Forget last year, the game has changed completely, and with what I've seen so far we handle the new style Anderson-ball worse than anyone.

[Go_Dogs]

I am typically the most optimistic of supporters but right now I'm shitting like a big, black Alsatian.

Forget last year, the game has changed completely, and with what I've seen so far we handle the new style Anderson-ball worse than anyone.

Lulling the rest of the competition into a false sense of security?

Our hard running, hitting targets based game should do ok against Anderson-ball tactics. I'm not pulling the plug just yet, and the fact is we've played a lot of kids and guys who haven't done much on the track and need a hit out.

If we start the year 0-4, I'll start to worry.

[Dry Rot]

I am typically the most optimistic of supporters but right now I'm shitting like a big, black Alsatian.

Forget last year, the game has changed completely, and with what I've seen so far we handle the new style Anderson-ball worse than anyone.

For at least the first quarter last night, the game seemed to be played with some sort of rolling flood. Awful footy to watch and we got done like a dinner.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Hardly naive. More an understanding of what practice matches are all about.

At this stage it matters little how the game is being played - as for our dysfunctional forward line we are all aware of our limitations, our strengths and weaknesses - surely practice games are the times to experiment with different setups to see if they do/ don't work. We made the Preliminary Final last year with a so-called 'dysfunctional' forward line. If Eade is looking at changing our setup (with an expectation of taking the next step) then surely the time to experiment is in practice matches leading up to the season proper, rather than experimenting during the season itself.

Honestly you need to have some belief in both the coaching staff as to how they are preparing our side for the season.

You're missing the point though. Just about every AFL Coach has conceeded that the game is changing so I'd say that the way it's being played certainly matters. It's a different style and we've seen it right throughout the NAB Cup in probably every single game. I agree that practice matches are handy to experiment, but the thing is we haven't even HAD a forward line. They've pushed up to the wings and we've really had next to nothing up forward - it's been incredibly odd, but again - it's all part of this new rolling zone tactic.

I am still very confident we'll be a good side this year, but I think dismissing particular things like the way we've handled this rolling zone and overall our disposal by foot/hand, isn't the greatest of ideas. Most sides have performed better than us in these two regards already, we haven't appeared to show any improvement from our very first game which IMO isn't good preparation.

[Before I Die]

You're missing the point though. Just about every AFL Coach has conceeded that the game is changing so I'd say that the way it's being played certainly matters. It's a different style and we've seen it right throughout the NAB Cup in probably every single game. I agree that practice matches are handy to experiment, but the thing is we haven't even HAD a forward line. They've pushed up to the wings and we've really had next to nothing up forward - it's been incredibly odd, but again - it's all part of this new rolling zone tactic.

I am still very confident we'll be a good side this year, but I think dismissing particular things like the way we've handled this rolling zone and overall our disposal by foot/hand, isn't the greatest of ideas. Most sides have performed better than us in these two regards already, we haven't appeared to show any improvement from our very first game which IMO isn't good preparation.

That's the million dollar question isn't it. Eade has said a number of times that he is preparing the team to get through the early part of the season when we have two trips to Perth and also to address the end of season fade outs we experienced in 2007 and 2008. He hasn't said he is preparing the team to combat the rolling zone, though it is probably safe to assume some work is being done on this. However, it is abundantly clear that he has not been overly concerned about winning pre-season games. So what qualifies as a good preparation? I am going to reserve my judgement till after the Perth trips.

Regarding the forward line, this doesn't worry me. Our current best six forwards are all highly skilled, experienced players (make that 5 of our 6) and I expect them to perform this year. What is perhaps interesting is that it appears the Cam Wight CHF experiment is over and Eade seems content to keep last year's structure in place until one or more of the young KPPs steps up.

[mjp]

Please don't let us lose to Freo in round one. Anything but that.

Please.

[Bulldog4life]

Hardly naive. More an understanding of what practice matches are all about.

At this stage it matters little how the game is being played - as for our dysfunctional forward line we are all aware of our limitations, our strengths and weaknesses - surely practice games are the times to experiment with different setups to see if they do/ don't work. We made the Preliminary Final last year with a so-called 'dysfunctional' forward line. If Eade is looking at changing our setup (with an expectation of taking the next step) then surely the time to experiment is in practice matches leading up to the season proper, rather than experimenting during the season itself.

Honestly you need to have some belief in both the coaching staff as to how they are preparing our side for the season.

I like your common sense attitude.

[azabob]

Please don't let us lose to Freo in round one. Anything but that.

Please.

Just between you and I, I would be hoping just a little bit harder if I was you. I think we will be 0-2 before we get our first win.