View Full Version : Can Everitt play as a tall forward?
Has he been tried in this role at Willi and was it successful?
I would love for him to get a go in this role on Sunday against the Saints and believe he has the talent to do it, whats everybody else's opinion?
bornadog
30-04-2009, 12:21 PM
Totally agree. Back in 2007 I read somewhere that eventually he would like to take on CHF. I think he is wasted in the back line just punching a ball away from a forward. We need him to play somewhere around the 50 metre mark to Centre square area.
However, whether he is ready now to take that on, I don't know.
Mofra
30-04-2009, 12:48 PM
We struggle to develop kids who played forward all their life to become forwards at AFL level. A kid who has been a defender for most of his junior life wouldn;t be any more likely.
I'd like to give him a go forward, but I doubt it will happen.
The Bulldogs Bite
30-04-2009, 01:20 PM
I think the few times he's played up forward, he's got a little lost and hasn't really demanded the ball. He's not a player that will probably ever show the intensity of a Morris/Callan/Williams type, he's probably more like Hargrave in that he floats across contests and is better suited to leaping and marking/punching rather than body on body.
I think it would be worth a shot though. He's still lacking body strength but he's got a big enoguh build to start pumping games into. I'd like to see him trialed as a forward for a period of six or eight weeks because IMHO he really hasn't shown much as a defender. Even at Williamstown, he just looks uncomfortable and easily gives up front position in a contest.
For mine, Everitt needs to play in a position that's based around instinct. There's really only two positions for that - wing or as a leading forward.
I really hope we move him up the ground soon.
LostDoggy
15-02-2010, 10:42 PM
One of the more interesting things from yesterday's game (there really werent many!) was where Everitt played. I picked him to play across half forward in my team for Round 1 2010, but that was based more on hope rather than genuine expectation.
I believe that he has the pace / skills / size to play a good role for us across half forward - do other posters think the same and do you think that Rocket will perserve with him in such a position. All the feedback from pre-season has been that he has really put in the effort and im hoping that this will really be his breakout year.
bornadog
15-02-2010, 10:50 PM
One of the more interesting things from yesterday's game (there really werent many!) was where Everitt played. I picked him to play across half forward in my team for Round 1 2010, but that was based more on hope rather than genuine expectation.
I believe that he has the pace / skills / size to play a good role for us across half forward - do other posters think the same and do you think that Rocket will perserve with him in such a position. All the feedback from pre-season has been that he has really put in the effort and im hoping that this will really be his breakout year.
Totally agree. Back in 2007 I read somewhere that eventually he would like to take on CHF. I think he is wasted in the back line just punching a ball away from a forward. We need him to play somewhere around the 50 metre mark to Centre square area.
However, whether he is ready now to take that on, I don't know.
Gave you the answer a year ago, still haven't changed my mind.;)
LostDoggy
15-02-2010, 11:12 PM
No - if he can't take a simple chest mark. Let him off just for the weather. His kicking would need to improve from last years efforts.
He's not a player that will probably ever show the intensity of a Morris/Callan/Williams type, he's probably more like Hargrave in that he floats across contests and is better suited to leaping and marking/punching rather than body on body.
The intensity of Williams?
Morris and Callan are rolling in their graves.
The Bulldogs Bite
16-02-2010, 12:55 AM
The intensity of Williams?
Morris and Callan are rolling in their graves.
Never seen Williams take a backward step. He runs straight. It's his lack of ability to read the play which hurts him, definitely not his intensity for the contest. I used him as a younger KP example to compare with Everitt.
Back to the subject, I think Everitt showed a couple of good signs yesterday. Moving better across the ground and his attack on the ball was better. Kicked two lovely goals in woeful conditions too. Perhaps he'll rotate between HF/wing, swapping with Hill?
bulldogsman
16-02-2010, 01:07 AM
Morris and Callan are rolling in their graves.
:eek:
Morris and Callan are dead? I hope not.
Bulldog4life
16-02-2010, 01:58 AM
Never seen Williams take a backward step. He runs straight. It's his lack of ability to read the play which hurts him, definitely not his intensity for the contest. I used him as a younger KP example to compare with Everitt.
Back to the subject, I think Everitt showed a couple of good signs yesterday. Moving better across the ground and his attack on the ball was better. Kicked two lovely goals in woeful conditions too. Perhaps he'll rotate between HF/wing, swapping with Hill?
That is one of the reasons why I would like to see him play forward. He is a good kick. The 2 he kicked never looked like missing. That is one thing that disappoints me with young forwards when their kicking for goal is haphazard and/or iffy. I liked the way he made space on Sunday and if Callan Ward had noticed him in the first quater standing by himself about 20 metres from goal Everitt could have easily kicked three for the day.
Never seen Williams take a backward step. He runs straight. It's his lack of ability to read the play which hurts him, definitely not his intensity for the contest. I used him as a younger KP example to compare with Everitt.
This is the subject though. The call is Everitt to the forward line and part of the reasoning is that he lacks intensity? I don't buy it.
Because he looks lackadaisical doesn't mean he is...equally, because Williams doesn't take a backward step he is intense at the contest? 10m late to the contest as often as not. Williams gets a free pass on all of this stuff even though he was a higher draft pick and has been at the club longer - Everitt cops criticism from one and all. Why is that exactly? He was terrific as a rookie, has played every position under the sun in his limited appearances (Williams has played two or, at most 3 if you include the back pocket) and has made a reasonable fist of most of them. Yes, I know Williams has been injured. Everitt has had a better run, but has copped his share as well.
Can't we appreciate Everitt for what he truly is? A terrific, tall running utility who kicks the ball very well. He will play back and forward and as a runner as required. There will be times he has to play back - and that is fine as he can cover talls and mid-sizers pretty well. He can go forward and provide a target. He can run through the midfield in short bursts.
Is he about to replace Murphy up forward or Lake down back? Well, of course not. But that is fine - those guys are our best two players. He is what he is - a good young player still trying to find his way into the side and along the way find his best position.
Mantis
16-02-2010, 07:55 AM
No - if he can't take a simple chest mark. Let him off just for the weather. His kicking would need to improve from last years efforts.
His kicking is extremely good as evidenced by the 2 set shots he slotted with ease on Sunday with a water-logged ball.
ES, can you remember some examples that have lead you to believe that Everitt's kicking is poor?
No - if he can't take a simple chest mark. Let him off just for the weather. His kicking would need to improve from last years efforts.
I say yes, I saw nearly every Bulldog drop a chest mark(Lake and Morris included) on Sunday and he kicked a couple of important goals. I don't know about as a KP but he can play as a tall flanker IMO.
LostDoggy
16-02-2010, 09:40 AM
Can't we appreciate Everitt for what he truly is? A terrific, tall running utility who kicks the ball very well. He will play back and forward and as a runner as required. There will be times he has to play back - and that is fine as he can cover talls and mid-sizers pretty well. He can go forward and provide a target. He can run through the midfield in short bursts.
Is he about to replace Murphy up forward or Lake down back? Well, of course not. But that is fine - those guys are our best two players. He is what he is - a good young player still trying to find his way into the side and along the way find his best position.
Agree with your post except your comment that he can cover talls down back. This is the glaring weakness in his game brought on because he is out-bodied at every contest with a tall.
He fails to hold his ground and makes the mistake of getting side on to his opponent.
Having said that I think he is a natural for the wing/midfield call it what you will. One of his better attributes is his poise when under pressure and his ability to feed off to a player in a better position.
Bulldog Revolution
16-02-2010, 09:45 AM
He is what he is - a good young player still trying to find his way into the side and along the way find his best position.
For me this is the issue in a nutshell,
I was particularly impressed with his attack on the ball on Sunday - some great examples in the first quarter
Swoop
16-02-2010, 11:41 AM
No doubt at times his height has worked against him, he is not a key position player however initially he was trialled there without success because of his height. I think we all can see now that he plays like a midfielder and in years to come he should hopefully turn into a valuable utility who can pinch hit at either end of the ground as well as through the midfield depending on match ups.
Defensively, he would be an ideal match up for a resting ruckman up forward ala Gilbee in 2006, most opposition sides only have them pinch hit for small periods of games in order to maximize midfield rotations on the bench and their actual affect on the game is minimal. Ideally Everitt can compete with them in the air enough to make a contest and more importantly he can really hurt them when the ball hits in the ground in his ability to run and pin point targets coming out of defence. For the remaining periods of the game he can run through the midfield and across half forward. As a side we need to begin to show more confidence in him as a player and actually look to give him the ball in order to hurt the opposition with his foot skills, he is actually a good kick of the ball and generally a good decision maker however I don't think we acknowledge or use him enough in this area.
He certainly offers us something different to the many similar players we have on the list and if he can perform at a consistent level his versatility would certainly be a handy commodity in our best 22. At the end of the day you can't argue with performances and at this stage of his career he simply needs to consistently perform and get some runs on the board and build from there. He does appear to be a confidence player so hopefully things can work out well for him in the pre-season and he can launch his season from there.
stefoid
16-02-2010, 01:00 PM
yeah, he can kick them on the run too.
Would have slotted extremely well into the saints rolling zone press where he would be required to guard space more than an actual opponent, then provide run and accurate long kicking going the other way.
I was spewing to see his name bandied about as trade bait. St Kilda could have cleaned us up there, but luckilly they kept their 1st rounder that would have sealed the deal for Lovett instead :)
As for us, long term I agree with Swoop - will be able to take on Johnos role as high half forward and/or Hargs role as rebounding 3rd tall who is able to handle smaller opponents.
Mofra
16-02-2010, 01:41 PM
I'm thinking there will be a different role opening up for him that hasn't really been a factor before in football - the KPP-height midfielder.
Cale Morton is a gun - at 193cm.
Malthouse as bandied around the use of Josh Fraser as a wingman.
Goodes was another ruck-sized midfielder.
Jon Brown has taken the odd centre square role at bounces.
Heck, even the former mastermind coach of a Western-Suburbs based canine-themed team put Darcy in the centre square for his clearance work when he wasn't taking the ruck contest.
Everitt's game style may be perfect for the way football is headed; he can play a run with role on the bigger mids, and his footskills willbe important for piercing opposition zones.
LostDoggy
16-02-2010, 02:58 PM
I think Everitt is a very important and versatile player for us with a good footy brain and great skills, he should play more often than not this year but unless he gains 10 kilos he shouldnt be playing in the backline, body on body, vs anyone because that is his weakness. He has plenty of strengths and hopefully, as of Sunday, we will be seeing him utilised better rather than patching holes down back.
The Bulldogs Bite
16-02-2010, 03:17 PM
This is the subject though. The call is Everitt to the forward line and part of the reasoning is that he lacks intensity? I don't buy it.
Because he looks lackadaisical doesn't mean he is...
The coach said as much that Everitt needed to lift his intensity. It's evident from training and Sunday's game that he's done that. However, the last two seasons he hasn't been able to consistently put that together. His game in round 22 v Collingwood was great because he showed some real determination to win the ball, run hard and create. In many other games that intensity and work rate simply wasn't there.
Williams doesn't take a backward step he is intense at the contest? 10m late to the contest as often as not. Williams gets a free pass on all of this stuff even though he was a higher draft pick and has been at the club longer - Everitt cops criticism from one and all. Why is that exactly? He was terrific as a rookie, has played every position under the sun in his limited appearances (Williams has played two or, at most 3 if you include the back pocket) and has made a reasonable fist of most of them. Yes, I know Williams has been injured. Everitt has had a better run, but has copped his share as well.
As I said - Williams struggles to read the play. It's his biggest flaw and why he regularly is second to the ball even against players much slower than himself. He's always tried hard. Work rate's never been a real fault of his. I remember Eade saying he used to train and push himself a little too hard.
Everitt had a terrific first year but went backwards after that. I went to several training sessions last year and he'd always be in the last few with every running drill. He didn't push himself, his intensity for training and playing was up and down and this reflected on his performances. He identified this as the problem, which is why he's had a fantastic pre-season.
I don't think anyone gives Williams' a free pass, either. Most are pretty aware that he has a whole lot to learn before he can call himself an established senior AFL footballer.
Can't we appreciate Everitt for what he truly is? A terrific, tall running utility who kicks the ball very well. He will play back and forward and as a runner as required. There will be times he has to play back - and that is fine as he can cover talls and mid-sizers pretty well. He can go forward and provide a target. He can run through the midfield in short bursts.
He should never play back IMO. It's a myth that he can play on smalls and talls. He's not a defender at all. For two years they played him on a whole range of talls, mediums and smalls. Even at Williamstown he struggled. Not sure he has the strength and immediate acceleration to keep up with senior forwards.
Everitt should play as a half forward swapping wingman, emulating Morton, Embley and co. I really like what he can bring to the side, he's one of my favourite players so i really hope he can find a role and produce. Could definitely help us take the next step.
LostDoggy
16-02-2010, 04:37 PM
He should never play back IMO. It's a myth that he can play on smalls and talls. He's not a defender at all. For two years they played him on a whole range of talls, mediums and smalls. Even at Williamstown he struggled. Not sure he has the strength and immediate acceleration to keep up with senior forwards.
Everitt should play as a half forward swapping wingman, emulating Morton, Embley and co. I really like what he can bring to the side, he's one of my favourite players so i really hope he can find a role and produce. Could definitely help us take the next step.
I guess that was my main concern was that i really dont like seeing Everitt played down back as they have tended to use him in the past. A half forward / wingman is his game and i just hope that he is played there consistently this year.
wimberga
16-02-2010, 05:59 PM
Anyone know what kind of role Eade had earmarked for Everitt when he was first drafted?
Greystache
16-02-2010, 06:05 PM
Anyone know what kind of role Eade had earmarked for Everitt when he was first drafted?
I don't know about Eade, but I know Scott Clayton to this day is adamant he drafted Everitt as a forward. He thinks his best position is playing out of the goal square. I can't say I agree with that, but I do agree that the forward line is his go, I think a mobile CHF in the mould of a Riewoldt.
Go_Dogs
16-02-2010, 06:44 PM
I don't know about Eade, but I know Scott Clayton to this day is adamant he drafted Everitt as a forward. He thinks his best position is playing out of the goal square.
Really? I seem to remember him being touted as "a modern day CHB, good runner with good skills" at the time he was drafted. I would love to see those comments by Clayton though if they are around somewhere.
He's still got plenty of development ahead of him, and will continue to improve his strength the older he gets. At the moment his best position is probably off a flank or a wing, but longer-term he could still end up being a CHB, or a KPF. Ideally he'll be able to play just about any position on the ground, which I think will be case eventually.
LostDoggy
16-02-2010, 07:00 PM
His kicking is extremely good as evidenced by the 2 set shots he slotted with ease on Sunday with a water-logged ball.
ES, can you remember some examples that have lead you to believe that Everitt's kicking is poor?
A few including the last game against Collingwood.
Greystache
16-02-2010, 07:02 PM
Really? I seem to remember him being touted as "a modern day CHB, good runner with good skills" at the time he was drafted. I would love to see those comments by Clayton though if they are around somewhere.
He's still got plenty of development ahead of him, and will continue to improve his strength the older he gets. At the moment his best position is probably off a flank or a wing, but longer-term he could still end up being a CHB, or a KPF. Ideally he'll be able to play just about any position on the ground, which I think will be case eventually.
I don't know if he's been quoted in the press saying it, but he's a family friend and has mentioned several times that's where he thinks Everitt should play.
Go_Dogs
16-02-2010, 07:03 PM
I don't know if he's been quoted in the press saying it, but he's a family friend and has mentioned several times that's where he thinks Everitt should play.
Interesting. Thanks for that.
Greystache
16-02-2010, 07:04 PM
A few including the last game against Collingwood.
The game where he kicked a lovely goal on the run from 50m in the first quarter?
Mantis
16-02-2010, 07:12 PM
A few including the last game against Collingwood.
Can you be a bit more specific?
A few including the last game against Collingwood.
Didn't he spot Johnno(and he kicked the goal that got us 3rd) up with a lovely pass. Not sure about the rest of the game.
LostDoggy
16-02-2010, 07:18 PM
Didn't he spot Johnno(and he kicked the goal that got us 3rd) up with a lovely pass. Not sure about the rest of the game.
A remember a few poor set shots from last year, his kciking from the run was usually good. No problem with his passing.
LostDoggy
16-02-2010, 07:26 PM
Can you be a bit more specific?
Yes last year
The 3.22455454 sec mark of the 2nd quarter. He was 34.24451m from goal on an angle 53deg left from the centre. The weather was 16.58C. Sorry not sure about the atomsopheric pressure though.
My word is not good enough for you? I remember him missing a few set shots. I might be wrong and confused him with someone else but I don't think so.
Thanks the only time your every reply to anything I say is when you think I say something wrong. I should be so lucky
Mantis
16-02-2010, 07:41 PM
Yes last year
The 3.22455454 sec mark of the 2nd quarter. He was 34.24451m from goal on an angle 53deg left from the centre. The weather was 16.58C. Sorry not sure about the atomsopheric pressure though.
My word is not good enough for you? I remember him missing a few set shots. I might be wrong and confused him with someone else but I don't think so.
Thanks the only time your every reply to anything I say is when you think I say something wrong. I should be so lucky
You don't have to take every question that is posed as a personal attack of your opinion.... Take a chill pill.
The feeling I get is that most Bulldogs fans believe Everitt's kicking is one of his strengths. Sure he has isn't 100% reliable in terms of efficiency, but personally I don't think his kicking needs to improve... but he does need to improve other parts of his game.
I don't know about Eade, but I know Scott Clayton to this day is adamant he drafted Everitt as a forward. He thinks his best position is playing out of the goal square. I can't say I agree with that, but I do agree that the forward line is his go, I think a mobile CHF in the mould of a Riewoldt.
That would be Clayton. Take a u18 defender and make him a forward, any forward projects as a defender...
Everitt played back at u18 level.
Everitt had a terrific first year but went backwards after that. I went to several training sessions last year and he'd always be in the last few with every running drill. He didn't push himself, his intensity for training and playing was up and down and this reflected on his performances. He identified this as the problem, which is why he's had a fantastic pre-season.
Injuries didn't contribute?
I don't think anyone gives Williams' a free pass, either. Most are pretty aware that he has a whole lot to learn before he can call himself an established senior AFL footballer.
Well, the whole 'he always tries, he is just bad at reading the play' smacks of a free pass to me. He plays as a defender with direct opponent accountability...what play does he need to read? Opponent leads...he just has to go as well. He is put in positions where minimal 'footy smarts' are needed on purpose...
He should never play back IMO. It's a myth that he can play on smalls and talls. He's not a defender at all. For two years they played him on a whole range of talls, mediums and smalls. Even at Williamstown he struggled. Not sure he has the strength and immediate acceleration to keep up with senior forwards.
Disagree. That first season everyone was so impressed with he played back. He is stronger and faster now than he was then.
Look - this all comes off like I hate Williams and love Everitt. The truth is in the middle. I am just tired of Williams being caught off his man and everyone making excuses, yet when Everitt drops off the contest or 'doesn't go' he is soft and lacks intensity. It isn't as simple as all that. We need Tom to cover opposition bigs (on occasion) - I get that. But he has to play BETTER. We need Everitt for his run and carry, versatility and kicking skills.
Mantis
16-02-2010, 08:30 PM
Injuries didn't contribute?
He had glandular fever before xmas last year. Surely that would have taken it's toll on his ability to handle his body being pushed to the limit.
Go_Dogs
16-02-2010, 08:38 PM
Well, the whole 'he always tries, he is just bad at reading the play' smacks of a free pass to me. He plays as a defender with direct opponent accountability...what play does he need to read? Opponent leads...he just has to go as well. He is put in positions where minimal 'footy smarts' are needed on purpose...
I seem to remember both Williams and Everitt getting towelled up by Taylor Walker at different stages in our win at AAMI Stadium last year. Walker is younger than them both, and got metres upon metres of space regularly, so Williams isn't alone in that respect.
I do however agree that Williams needs to start to show some serious improvement. He does do some good things, but he still gets beaten too frequently. Improving the gap between his better and lesser games is a must.
The Bulldogs Bite
16-02-2010, 08:41 PM
Injuries didn't contribute?
Well, the whole 'he always tries, he is just bad at reading the play' smacks of a free pass to me. He plays as a defender with direct opponent accountability...what play does he need to read? Opponent leads...he just has to go as well. He is put in positions where minimal 'footy smarts' are needed on purpose...
Injuries did contribute but that was later in the season(s). I recall him running next to Jarrad Grant in all the running drills and thinking 'I know he's capable of more then that'. He didn't push himself enough prior to this year, that's why he ultimately hasn't played many games.
Footy smarts are needed as a defender IMO. It's not as simple as following your man. Defenders often peel off, cover for their team mates and provide attack on the rebound. Williams obviously doesn't do a lot of this, but with all the chopping and changing in today's game, if you can't read the play as a defender you're stuffed. That's why a lot of younger players learn their trade in the back half. It makes them better players be it they become midfielders or forwards later on.
Unfortunately, Williams cannot judge the flight of the ball/reading of the play and has been punished several times because of it. I've been one of his biggest critics and especially after that Collingwood Friday Night game last year.
Disagree. That first season everyone was so impressed with he played back. He is stronger and faster now than he was then.
I'm happy to be corrected but I was sure he played on the wing?
Either way, he's struggled at VFL level in the back half against talls and smalls. I think he can offer far more in the midfield and up forward. His ability to kick two majors on the weekend when we missed so many was a real highlight for mine.
Look - this all comes off like I hate Williams and love Everitt. The truth is in the middle. I am just tired of Williams being caught off his man and everyone making excuses, yet when Everitt drops off the contest or 'doesn't go' he is soft and lacks intensity. It isn't as simple as all that. We need Tom to cover opposition bigs (on occasion) - I get that. But he has to play BETTER. We need Everitt for his run and carry, versatility and kicking skills.
Both are a long way off it at the moment and I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Williams. It's a big year for both of these players for several reasons. The key for Tom is to keep playing week in and week out. The key for Everitt is to be consistent in his effort. When he is (v Collingwood + this pre-season) he's a completely different player and one that could really trouble sides.
I wouldn't mind seeing Everitt and Hall in the same forward line in two weeks.
GVGjr
16-02-2010, 09:44 PM
Really? I seem to remember him being touted as "a modern day CHB, good runner with good skills" at the time he was drafted.
That's how I remember it.
I don't know if he's been quoted in the press saying it, but he's a family friend and has mentioned several times that's where he thinks Everitt should play.
As mjp mentioned, that would be right up Clayton's alley. He's fairly convincing at being able to sell the benefits of moving a player into a different position to the one he played the majority of his junior football.
That would be Clayton. Take a u18 defender and make him a forward, any forward projects as a defender...
Everitt played back at u18 level.
In his first season Everitt looked to have remarkable poise with his running and especially his skills but to be honest I think his skill level has declined unless he is out by himself. I have seen him turn the ball over all too frequently for Williamstown so it's difficult for me to know how he should best be used.
My gut feel is that he should be a 3rd tall defender but his height and agility means he could play as a 3rd tall forward as well. I'd like to see him played there for at least a good part of the season.
Either way his laconic approach is frustrating to me. He is capable of a lot more than he is currently displaying
bulldogsman
17-02-2010, 01:32 AM
I'm happy to be corrected but I was sure he played on the wing?
Yeah he was played mostly on the wing with a few stints in the backline. I think it was only in the last game or two where he spent a bit of time as a back pocket. He did okay in their, but his poise and ability to get through traffic in the midfield is what everyone was going on about.
LostDoggy
17-02-2010, 09:43 AM
Both are a long way off it at the moment and I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Williams. It's a big year for both of these players for several reasons. The key for Tom is to keep playing week in and week out. The key for Everitt is to be consistent in his effort. When he is (v Collingwood + this pre-season) he's a completely different player and one that could really trouble sides.
I wouldn't mind seeing Everitt and Hall in the same forward line in two weeks.
If this is the case, we are in trouble because Williams is our first choice CHB, a fairly important position I would have thought.
I think you both underestimate Williams' abilities. He is never going to be outpaced by an opponent while playing CHB for a start. He is fearless, a good tackler and an excellent kick.
Yes, he has much scope for improvement but this doesn't mean he is below standard right now. We all know he needs more games in him and when that happens I believe he will be key figure in our search for success.
Go_Dogs
17-02-2010, 11:19 AM
If this is the case, we are in trouble because Williams is our first choice CHB, a fairly important position I would have thought.
I think you both underestimate Williams' abilities. He is never going to be outpaced by an opponent while playing CHB for a start. He is fearless, a good tackler and an excellent kick.
He'll never be out paced, but if he continually loses his opponent, or runs super fast to the wrong spot, or where he thought the ball may go - he'll look terrible, and be beaten easily by the better forwards around. And this is a fairly regular occurrence.
I think Williams usually gets a fairly easy role, and he's lucky that he's got a bunch of AA defenders around him, including Lake and Morris who really ease the pressure on him. If for instance Williams had to line up on one of Brown or Fev, he'd get slaughtered.
The recent discussions in this thread have probably underestimated him a little, but I think you are severely overstating him based on potential, rather than what we've actually seen to date. Potentially, he's a very good CHB, because he is fast and strong and has can kick (occasionally) but he's a long way off turning that potential into consistent AFL performances. His real value at the moment is what he allows our better, more senior defenders to do, due to him being in the team.
Mantis
17-02-2010, 11:45 AM
I think Williams usually gets a fairly easy role, and he's lucky that he's got a bunch of AA defenders around him, including Lake and Morris who really ease the pressure on him. If for instance Williams had to line up on one of Brown or Fev, he'd get slaughtered.
Time to get way off track:
In Brown's last 4 games against us he has averaged 18 disposals, 11 marks and 3 goals. Lake has played on for the bulk of these games.
While Fev has only averaged 2.1 goals per game in his 10 appearances against the Dogs he did kick 6 on Lake in 2008.
One could that Lake's ability to negate a high quality opponent aren't that great and that he is shielded from the guns by Morris. Although in saying that Lake offers a fair bit more to the team with his ability to cut off the opposing teams forward movements.
I guess what I am saying is that is that each of our defenders offers something different and I am sure that if Tom can play close to 22 games this year he will add an extra dimension to our defence.
Go_Dogs
17-02-2010, 11:50 AM
I guess what I am saying is that is that each of our defenders offers something different and I am sure that if Tom can play close to 22 games this year he will add an extra dimension to our defence.
Don't disagree - you conveniently left of the last part of my post where I basically said the same thing ;)
Greystache
17-02-2010, 12:19 PM
Time to get way off track:
In Brown's last 4 games against us he has averaged 18 disposals, 11 marks and 3 goals. Lake has played on for the bulk of these games.
While Fev has only averaged 2.1 goals per game in his 10 appearances against the Dogs he did kick 6 on Lake in 2008.
One could that Lake's ability to negate a high quality opponent aren't that great and that he is shielded from the guns by Morris. Although in saying that Lake offers a fair bit more to the team with his ability to cut off the opposing teams forward movements.
I guess what I am saying is that is that each of our defenders offers something different and I am sure that if Tom can play close to 22 games this year he will add an extra dimension to our defence.
It's also worth noting in the last 4 seasons Brown has averaged 16 disposals, 8.6 marks, and 3.46 goals a game competition wide. So I wouldn't say Brown has done anything more against us (or Lake) than he has against any other team. Plus Morris isn't really an option to play on the really big key forwards.
Lake offers a lot in terms of cutting off opposition forward 50 entries, but I wouldn't say he's not all that good at negating. If Williams is to really offer the team something, he has to develop the ability to play a purely negating role on the really big opposition forwards in the way Morris does on the slightly smaller one's, leaving Lake free to play a better version of Maxwell’s game. Otherwise he's not really offering us much.
LostDoggy
17-02-2010, 12:33 PM
He'll never be out paced, but if he continually loses his opponent, or runs super fast to the wrong spot, or where he thought the ball may go - he'll look terrible, and be beaten easily by the better forwards around. And this is a fairly regular occurrence.
I think Williams usually gets a fairly easy role, and he's lucky that he's got a bunch of AA defenders around him, including Lake and Morris who really ease the pressure on him. If for instance Williams had to line up on one of Brown or Fev, he'd get slaughtered.
.
Not sure of your use of the word' "fairly" but I refute both these comments.
Yes he has found himself out of position on occasions but regularly? You make it sound like he is hopeless. In my view he is a key to our drive to a Premiership and I'm prepared to back him in.
CHB - a fairly easy role? Not in my book. Cast your mind back to his effort on Franklin in Launceston. Franklin at the time was the most explosive player in the business and Williams outpointed him time and time again. Only a couple of soft goals saved Franklin from absolute embarrassment.
He doesn't need to line up on Brown or Fev because that job is Lake's. Mind you, he has a few mates in the competition who would struggle against Brown and Fev and that is hardly the criteria on which his usefulness to our side should be based.
Go_Dogs
17-02-2010, 01:17 PM
Not sure of your use of the word' "fairly" but I refute both these comments.
Yes he has found himself out of position on occasions but regularly? You make it sound like he is hopeless. In my view he is a key to our drive to a Premiership and I'm prepared to back him in.
CHB - a fairly easy role? Not in my book. Cast your mind back to his effort on Franklin in Launceston. Franklin at the time was the most explosive player in the business and Williams outpointed him time and time again. Only a couple of soft goals saved Franklin from absolute embarrassment.
He doesn't need to line up on Brown or Fev because that job is Lake's. Mind you, he has a few mates in the competition who would struggle against Brown and Fev and that is hardly the criteria on which his usefulness to our side should be based.
Now I'm sounding like I'm anti-Williams, which I'm certainly not.
CHB isn't an easy role, but let's be honest, against most of the better sides - the game in Tassie against the Hawks being one of perhaps a few notable exceptions - Morris and Lake usually take the better key forwards. Hence, Williams is often against the 3rd stringer, ie Taylor Walker, and has often been outpointed by these type of players.
He has also played some rippers, like that day in Tasmania. But that is not the norm (yet) by any stretch.
As you have mentioned, and I have, and Mantis has - his true value at the moment is what he allows us to do with our other match ups. He gives us much more flexibility. Keeping him on the park is crucial, but mainly for that reason, not because he'll dominate over the best key forwards, or even the 2nd best key forwards (although hopefully by years end he'll be able to do that too).
I'm prepared to back him in too, but I'm not prepared to get carried away. Given the recruits and upgrades over the course of the off-season, the club isn't getting carried away either. At his best, he's a good player, but getting that consistency is crucial, and so is continuing to improve his defensive work.
LostDoggy
17-02-2010, 01:18 PM
bit off topic but notice in press that there are suggestions that six players have already signed for gc. Could everitt be one? Clayton has always been a fan and i recall his contract running out this year or next
Only a couple of soft goals saved Franklin from absolute embarrassment.
Franklin kicked 5 that day and had 11 scoring shots.
Swoop
17-02-2010, 03:17 PM
Franklin kicked 5 that day and had 11 scoring shots.
I also recall that we restriced the Hawks to only 35 inside 50's which was almost 20 fewer than their season average, we also won the clearances 36 to 23 and the tackles 57 to 38. Taking those factors into account 11 scoring shots ain't too shabby, no doubt Williams was made to look better by the pressure we applied on the ball carrier further up the ground but it's funny that his game sticks in everyone's mind as one of his better games.
stefoid
17-02-2010, 03:41 PM
bit off topic but notice in press that there are suggestions that six players have already signed for gc. Could everitt be one? Clayton has always been a fan and i recall his contract running out this year or next
already signed? no considering a contract, quite possible.
Mantis
17-02-2010, 03:56 PM
already signed? no considering a contract, quite possible.
He signed a new 2yr contract late last season.
The fact that he had already signed a new contract made his decision that he wanted to be traded a little surprising as we held all the ace's. If we didn't like the trade offered (which is what eventuated) we didn't have to trade him for the sake of it or perhaps risk losing him for nothing which is the case for un-contracted players.
LostDoggy
17-02-2010, 04:09 PM
Franklin kicked 5 that day and had 11 scoring shots.
According to FinalSiren stats he kicked 5 goals 0 behinds which puts a different spin on things. I think you got the wrong game.
We can interpret raw statistics anyway we like. For instance, I can readily assume that on that day almost all forward thrusts went through Franklin but there are no statistics on that. As mentioned earlier, there were some soft goals involved not attributable to any defiency in Williams' play.
Here is a comment from FrediKanoute giving votes in the Marmo on the day -
Pups
1. .....
2. Williams - stats will show Buddy finihsed with 5, but he really only got 2 from beating Williams. Will only get better.
I doubt whether any Woofer watching that game came away anyhing but impressed with Williams and his future.
stefoid
17-02-2010, 05:44 PM
Poor Tom, in a perfect world he would have 70+ games to his name and be developing nicely.
According to FinalSiren stats he kicked 5 goals 0 behinds which puts a different spin on things. I think you got the wrong game.
We can interpret raw statistics anyway we like.
I doubt whether any Woofer watching that game came away anyhing but impressed with Williams and his future.
Apologies for getting it wrong - 5 goals is 5 goals though right?
Williams played OK that day, but I am just so sick of hearing about one game - when his direct opponent still kicked 5 - as a sign of things to come when there are many more games when he wasn't quite as effective that are conveniently forgotten. I know he is the messiah as a key back, but I would rather go into a big game with Morris fighting out of his weight division than counting on Williams to go toe-to-toe with an opposition superstar forward.
I guess that this will be the year my perception of him changes.
The Pie Man
17-02-2010, 06:25 PM
Apologies for getting it wrong - 5 goals is 5 goals though right?
Williams played OK that day, but I am just so sick of hearing about one game - when his direct opponent still kicked 5 - as a sign of things to come when there are many more games when he wasn't quite as effective that are conveniently forgotten. I know he is the messiah as a key back, but I would rather go into a big game with Morris fighting out of his weight division than counting on Williams to go toe-to-toe with an opposition superstar forward.
I guess that this will be the year my perception of him changes.
How about one piece of play? I decided to tell my family ad nauseam that Skipper could be our FF answer after taking that pack mark against St Kilda in 2008...I limited spruking this annoying bile on WOOF (thankfully) and have since moved on.
As per the OP, I think Everitt looked promising on the weekend. All for guys who can kick straight, and while ES has pointed to some sloppy priors (Ern I think you might be referring to Freo game last year, the Brad Johnson games record game, I believe he went forward late, got a bit of it and proceded to shank a couple) his action etc looked good last Sunday
mighty_west
17-02-2010, 07:42 PM
Poor Tom, in a perfect world he would have 70+ games to his name and be developing nicely.
Couldn't have said it better myself, he cops a bad wrap for a player that wasn't brought up on Aussie rules, to be recruited to fill such an important role in a side.
I remember one bad incident when Trav Cloke simply outsmarted him in a contest, the same game where Cloke kicks zero goals on Tom.
He really needed to get as much game time as possible since being selected in the draft whether it be in the VFL or Bulldogs side, yet injuries have just set him back big time in regards to development footy wise.
As for the topic at hand, Everitt, i have always wanted to see him get game time as a half forward, even though he played under 18's as a defender, he was more a rebounding attacking defender than anything, but at this level, he just gets outbodied far too often, i don't believe he is a natural defender anyway, he really is a utility type, i also see him as an Embley type, could run off a wing, but also run his opponent deep forward at times as well, thats where i would like to see him play.
The Bulldogs Bite
17-02-2010, 07:56 PM
Apologies for getting it wrong - 5 goals is 5 goals though right?
Williams played OK that day, but I am just so sick of hearing about one game - when his direct opponent still kicked 5 - as a sign of things to come when there are many more games when he wasn't quite as effective that are conveniently forgotten. I know he is the messiah as a key back, but I would rather go into a big game with Morris fighting out of his weight division than counting on Williams to go toe-to-toe with an opposition superstar forward.
I guess that this will be the year my perception of him changes.
Definitely agree with this.
That Hawthorn game is over hyped. The soft goals came from Williams being out of position once or twice. He showed good signs that day, but his opponent still booted 5 with reduced delivery into the F50.
I think one of Tom's best games came against Brisbane last year. The one where he broke a bone in his foot.
LostDoggy
17-02-2010, 11:05 PM
Franklin kicked 5 that day and had 11 scoring shots.
I was at the ground that day and sitting behind the goals at the northern end so saw plenty of the Williams v Franklin contest and Tom certainly had the better of him on the day.
Two of his goals were soft which Tom had no influence and another goal came when Tom wss resting on the bench.
Franklin could have had plenty more if it wasnt for the v good game played by Williams that day.
However, we have seen very little of that form since and when he played last year he looked lost on several occasions as it is obvious he doesnt came from an AFL background and he has no natural feel for the game. Yes, he can run fast and kick ok but when you are a CHB you also have to be able to read the play and prevent your opponent from marking the ball.
Hopefully he can make all eat a little humble pie this year though.
Couldn't have said it better myself, he cops a bad wrap for a player that wasn't brought up on Aussie rules, to be recruited to fill such an important role in a side.
Everything you said is fair enough...except this. He is never, ever criticised by supporters. I guess that is the basis of all my posts in this thread.
comrade
18-02-2010, 12:00 AM
I think one of Tom's best games came against Brisbane last year. The one where he broke a bone in his foot.
Great call.
He hurt himself early but kept Brown in check. It's just his luck that what could have been a 'break out' game, turned into another 'break down' game.
Good thread, BTW. Some differing points of view, but well reasoned nonetheless.
Sockeye Salmon
18-02-2010, 01:49 AM
Apologies for getting it wrong - 5 goals is 5 goals though right?
Not when 2 are Joe the Goose, 1 is relayed downfield and another is in junk time.
Barry Hall kicked 6 when Lake was just about BOG and we won by 10 goals.
bulldogsman
18-02-2010, 01:03 PM
Everything you said is fair enough...except this. He is never, ever criticised by supporters. I guess that is the basis of all my posts in this thread.
Erm that's not true. Read this thread and there's many more but probably not as many as Everitt.
http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=5690&h.ighlight=tom+williams
Bulldog4life
18-02-2010, 02:01 PM
Everything you said is fair enough...except this. He is never, ever criticised by supporters. I guess that is the basis of all my posts in this thread.
That is a wide sweeping statement. I think you'd agree that you could have worded that better to prove your point.
Not when 2 are Joe the Goose, 1 is relayed downfield and another is in junk time.
Barry Hall kicked 6 when Lake was just about BOG and we won by 10 goals.
Fair enough Jim. When you name me the last time a Bulldogs tall forward accidentally kicked 5 I will with you all the way. 5 goals don't just happen...The kid played OK that day, but it was 2 long years ago, as has been noted Hawthorn only had 35 inside 50's (so midfield pressure was extreme) and his opponent still - cut it however you like - kicked 5 goals.
That is a wide sweeping statement. I think you'd agree that you could have worded that better to prove your point.
It was intentionally wide and sweeping...I am not trying to prove a point, merely state a belief that Williams receives a free ride in contrast to Everitt who has by most reasonable measures delivered more yet is continually put down and criticised.
Erm that's not true. Read this thread and there's many more but probably not as many as Everitt.
http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=5690&h.ighlight=tom+williams
Excellent. I have read it...full of 'We expect to muches' and "I'm positive" and "he gives our backline structure...' - basically more people sticking up for him than being critical...
To be truthful, that's a good thing. Go and start the same thread about Everitt or Eagleton for example - or Gia for that matter - and see what happens.
comrade
18-02-2010, 07:50 PM
To be truthful, that's a good thing. Go and start the same thread about Everitt or Eagleton for example - or Gia for that matter - and see what happens.
Do we really want to get Mantis wound up? :D
mighty_west
18-02-2010, 08:03 PM
It was intentionally wide and sweeping...I am not trying to prove a point, merely state a belief that Williams receives a free ride in contrast to Everitt who has by most reasonable measures delivered more yet is continually put down and criticised.
I agree that both Williams & Everitt cop their fair share of flack, sometimes these players are harshly judged more so on where they are selected in the draft, and i believe that is wrong, once players get drafted, they are all on an equal ground.
In regards to Williams, it is his reading the play & being out beaten by an opponent, with Everitt it is in regards to his lack of intensity, they both cop it.
I hate when supporters continally bag or put down our own players, whether that be Williams or Everitt or Eagleton, when i was writng my post, it wasn't a contest between who cops more of a bad wrap, i was only talking about Williams, and from where i sit at games and what i have read on here at times & the likes of BF, he certaintly cops his fair share.
i was only talking about Williams, and from where i sit at games and what i have read on here at times & the likes of BF, he certaintly cops his fair share.
Fair enough. I don't visit the other site but don't feel he is criticised on this site at all...certainly any negative comment about him (like my one on this thread) is jumped on by other posters defending him...contrast when Eagleton is criticised it is met with a cacophony of support!
I didn't quote it, but high draft picks should be judged more harshly...isn't that the nature of being a highly sought after recruit?
GVGjr
18-02-2010, 08:10 PM
I probably agree that Everitt cops a few more whacks than Williams however, that's the price you pay for whetting the appetite of so many supporters in your first season.
Everitt cops his whacks because he's seen as someone not reaching his potential and Williams one who can't stay fit and because he was always drafted as a project player.
The thing is that Williams is regarded as being in a our best starting 18 and Everitt is seen more as a back-up and that's the main reason why he cops it a bit more.
The Coon Dog
18-02-2010, 08:15 PM
, that's the price you pay for whetting the appetite of so many supporters in your first season.
Including the board who were seduced enough to award him the coveted #3 jumper.
Including the board who were seduced enough to award him the coveted #3 jumper.
Wasn't he Grants choice.
mighty_west
18-02-2010, 08:22 PM
I didn't quote it, but high draft picks should be judged more harshly...isn't that the nature of being a highly sought after recruit?
In that case, shouldn't the recruiters cop more criticism than the players being selected?
A player like Williams, was he drafted on junior talent alone and being seen to become a better player overall than players selected later on in the draft? He was clearly a project player, he didn't select himself, he just put himself out there like all other recruits.
Sometimes with selections, players can be taken well ahead of what others think they are worth due to thinking other teams might nab them before our next selection, so if that player doesn't quite come on as much as a player taken in the area of the draft is expected to do so, is that also his fault, should he be judges on whether he was selected or where he perhaps was forecast to be selected?
Obviously there are all types of strategies on selecting players, best available vs needs, should that also be a factor to how to judge the individual players?
I am just of the opinion that one these kids step in, it basically starts from there, and where they are selected is really irrelevant at the end of the day [pardon the pun].
GVGjr
18-02-2010, 08:28 PM
Including the board who were seduced enough to award him the coveted #3 jumper.
As you know I have always been a big believer that the jumper should be retired for a season for any player who reaches 250 games for the club.
Would we have given Everitt the number three 12 months later?
Sockeye Salmon
18-02-2010, 09:33 PM
Fair enough Jim. When you name me the last time a Bulldogs tall forward accidentally kicked 5 I will with you all the way. 5 goals don't just happen...The kid played OK that day, but it was 2 long years ago, as has been noted Hawthorn only had 35 inside 50's (so midfield pressure was extreme) and his opponent still - cut it however you like - kicked 5 goals.
I get your point, but Loaf kicked 5 in the 98 Qualifying v West Coast, that's as close as you will get.
Some 5 goals games aren't as good as other 5 goal games.
The Bulldogs Bite
18-02-2010, 09:45 PM
As you know I have always been a big believer that the jumper should be retired for a season for any player who reaches 250 games for the club.
Would we have given Everitt the number three 12 months later?
Agree with this.
Found it a little premature at the time, but hopefully Everitt can begin to show the signs he did earlier in his career. He's got a lot of talent and I was very happy we were able to keep him on our list after last year's trading period.
ledge
18-02-2010, 09:53 PM
Everitt is a good player, we just need to find the right spot for him, floating forward from the wing is my opinion, now we have Hall who can decoy if need be leaving Everitt with his height and speed to float in around the back.
Hill plays this part well too but i like Hill on a forward flank on one side and Everitt the winger on the other side.
Everitt to take over from Eagle next year.
Dazza
18-02-2010, 09:58 PM
Skipper kicked 5 once didn't he?
At games who do you think cops the most flak? I've heard Addison receive a hell of alot of it. From opposition supporters it seems Aker and Johnson cop it a bit.
Before I Die
18-02-2010, 10:01 PM
Fair enough. I don't visit the other site but don't feel he is criticised on this site at all...certainly any negative comment about him (like my one on this thread) is jumped on by other posters defending him...contrast when Eagleton is criticised it is met with a cacophony of support!
I didn't quote it, but high draft picks should be judged more harshly...isn't that the nature of being a highly sought after recruit?
mjp, you are without doubt one of the most knowledgeable (football wise) posters on this forum, but this statement is rubbish.
Why should they be judged more harshly? Because the recruiters can't do their job? Because supporters have unreasonable expectations? The players don't decide where they are drafted, that is the job of the recruiters. All the players can do is display a good attitude and train hard.
Everitt had a poor training attitude last season and it cost him senior games. For this he deserved criticism. Apparently Williams has an excellent attitude but is injury prone. When fit he gets picked. He is nowhere near a dominant player at this stage of his career, but has given every indication that he could be if he can stay fit and get game experience.
ledge
18-02-2010, 10:12 PM
Skipper kicked 5 once didn't he?
At games who do you think cops the most flak? I've heard Addison receive a hell of alot of it. From opposition supporters it seems Aker and Johnson cop it a bit.
Eagleton is probably the biggest by our own supporters but they tend to love it when he comes good in tight moments, which he has a knack of doing.
As long as opposition are bagging our players its awesome, means they are pestering their team and playing well.
Johhnno and Aker have done it for years, means they are sick of the sight of them beating their team.
Dazza
18-02-2010, 10:28 PM
To be honest I've only noticed the Eagleton bagging online.
mjp, you are without doubt one of the most knowledgeable (football wise) posters on this forum, but this statement is rubbish.
Why should they be judged more harshly? Because the recruiters can't do their job? Because supporters have unreasonable expectations? The players don't decide where they are drafted, that is the job of the recruiters. All the players can do is display a good attitude and train hard.
Huh?
Go through recent draft history and look at the success rates of first rounders vs second/third/fourth and so on. First round picks are - competition wide - more likely to succeed...and therefore they are under more pressure/scrutiny to perform than later picks....they just are.
I had two draftees last year - one in the first couple, another went middle of the 2nd round...I can tell you right now which player the supporters are pinning their hopes on, who is on the back page of the paper etc...it creates excitement around the club and community and pressure on the player. If he struggles, he is going to be judged against ALL of these factors, there will be the 'we could have had "player x" ' laments from the supporters etc...
I get it when you say 'everyone is equal' and dont judge them based on perception or whatever...but that isn't realistic. I will give Shane Thorne a free pass...he was a late pick who we took a flyer on. I wont do that for Christian Howard. He is the one who MUST come through from the 2009 draft class and he will be assessed accordingly.
Before I Die
19-02-2010, 08:16 PM
I get it when you say 'everyone is equal' and dont judge them based on perception or whatever...but that isn't realistic. I will give Shane Thorne a free pass...he was a late pick who we took a flyer on. I wont do that for Christian Howard. He is the one who MUST come through from the 2009 draft class and he will be assessed accordingly.
Do you mean Howard himself, or his selection by Dalrymple?
Surely it is Dalrymple's ability as a recruiter that should be questioned if Howard fails, not Howard himself, unless the failure is due to lack of application. If Dalrymple hadn't picked Howard so early he may have fallen through to be a later pick than Thorne for another club. In that case, your argument would dictate that he should be under less scrutiny then Thorne.
Seems just a tad unfair and harsh to me that Howard should cop the flack for something which he had no control over.
Swoop
19-02-2010, 10:32 PM
I guess these are the realities and pressures of being taken higher in the draft, you only need to look at the number 1 picks of years gone and see how heavily they are scrutinized. Rightly or wrongly these are the expectations placed on them from the football public and from a recruiters point of view, how the player is likely to react and handle that pressure is also taken into consideration.
Yes the recruiter will make the decision but it is the player drafted that will shoulder the burden of expectation.
Seems just a tad unfair and harsh to me that Howard should cop the flack for something which he had no control over.
Yep. It is unfair and harsh. And he was pick 15.
Imagine what expectation the first draft pick is under? Remember the flack Adam Cooney copped in year 1 for being overweight and inconsistent and what not - playing in a terrible (and selfish) team, losing every week, coach under pressure etc.
This is just the way it is. Williams was pick 6 and Everitt pick 10'ish (11?) - we need them both to come through and perform and this year would be excellent.
As for recruiters, if they miss on top 10 selections, they very quickly find themselves without jobs.
Mofra
20-02-2010, 02:53 PM
Everitt was a pick 11 as was Higgins - Everitt I believe has come under scrutiny since the start of his second season when it became fairly clear he was not going to become a CHB as touted, and a player picked a couple of spots after him (Riewoldt) was starting to become quite handy for the Tiges.
mighty_west
20-02-2010, 03:08 PM
Everitt was a pick 11 as was Higgins - Everitt I believe has come under scrutiny since the start of his second season when it became fairly clear he was not going to become a CHB as touted, and a player picked a couple of spots after him (Riewoldt) was starting to become quite handy for the Tiges.
Everitt himself has probably come under scrutiny more so for his lack of intensity levels, and seemingly just coasting along whilst others are busting their guys everytime they run out on the track, and that's fair enough in my books.
I think you hit the nail there with players being scrutinised more so for being selected ahead of other players who have showed more, Fiora & Pavlich, Tambling & Buddy [both Richmond, don't ya love it..:D], rather than being select as first round picks as such.
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