Ryan Griffen?

[LostDoggy]

Ryan has had a serviceable season, but he constantly promises more and fails to deliver. Is he ever going to be a true star of the competition or will he alway tease supporters? This season I have been surprised by the poor quality of his disposal and the lack of second and third efforts, does he let himself down in concentration, application or am I just expecting too much from him? I wonder if he is a football in his comfort zone or just a victim of high expectations.

[The Coon Dog]

Probably covered here:

Griffen's last month of footy (http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=5445)

[bulldog]

I think we put too much pressure on him i think his season has been ok he will be cherry ripe to explode on finals this year.Also to the supporters on Level 2 who bagged Griff yesterday you are pathetic

[Go_Dogs]

Let's just leave Griff alone for a while. He's had a career best year. He's improving and his last 6 weeks had been very consistent. I know he needs to have 40 touches and kick 10 each week - but realistically we should be happy (some are) with his output.

[LostDoggy]

It's the Tambling syndrome.

When your taken before Franklin, you get compared to him.

[GVGjr]

It's the Tambling syndrome.

When your taken before Franklin, you get compared to him.

I'm comparing him more to Griffen of 2 seasons to go and he isn't measuring up at the moment.
Does it coincide with his move into the middle? As a half back flanker he was providing us with far more drive.

[Go_Dogs]

I'm comparing him more to Griffen of 2 seasons to go and he isn't measuring up at the moment.
Does it coincide with his move into the middle? As a half back flanker he was providing us with far more drive.

I guess it depends what role we want him playing. His drive might be down a bit, but his clearance work and inside work have improved a lot, as has his defensive work.

You are thinking he'd be of more value down back, as far as what we are lacking?

[GVGjr]

I guess it depends what role we want him playing. His drive might be down a bit, but his clearance work and inside work have improved a lot, as has his defensive work.

You are thinking he'd be of more value down back, as far as what we are lacking?

It's a learning curve for him but I always felt his best value to us was more likely to be as a
half back flanker or winger rather than right in the guts.

[mjp]

I have questioned the 'move to the midfield' for a couple of years.

- His starting points are 'sloppy'. When he plays hb, he seems to do a much better job of positioning himself to impact the contest than he does as a midfielder....Why? Because he starts on his opponent rather than guessing and sitting in space.

- He HAS to take on the tackler every time he wins the ball. He is almost pathological about it. From half-back, this means he has to win ONE contest (often one-on-one which he is very good at - strong through the core and hard to knock-off the ball) before taking off. In the midfield he seems to want to run over three players and often ends up disposing of the ball in desperation rather than in an attempt to attack.

- For such a good kick, he does try to 'force' things too often. He also has that wider ball drop and big hip swing that makes it difficult to be precise. From half-back, there is simply more room for error - it suits him.

For me we have turned a dominant (remember the Geelong game vs G. Ablett) half-back, preliminary final vs Collingwood) half-back into 'just another' midfielder. Boydy is a better inside mid than Griffen. Crossy probably is as well. Cooney is. Hell - Ward has had more of an impact at times this year...Put him where he is best equipped to succeed - behind the ball.

[DOG GOD]

MJP, as u are a coach here, why are coaches so intent on turning players into something they are not when they have proven they are so good in a position?

Griffen was a really good hbf i thought, and would run the lines from there (geel and coll games as an example), yet eade and the likes seem intent to "make" him a mid. Hill has been another example this year. Played out of his skin in 08 on a wing/hf, but we have seen this year that eade has used him more of a prominant fwd, and have seen mixed results.

Harbrow has been the success story no doubt, but he wasnt really setting the world on fire as a fwd pocket specialist, and has really found his niche in the last line of defense.

[mjp]

LOL. I don't know.

But I must say there are at least 30 parents of 17 year olds living south of Perth who question my ability to walk and talk at the same time each week...some of them probably question my ability to to either one independently!

There are two reasons for moving a player:

1/.As part of a development plan.
2/.In a desperate search for 'something' - basically when you have either a team need (due to form or injury) or a talented player who you cannot quite decide what to do with.

I have no doubt that Griffen was targeted for an on-ball role from the day he walked into the place. He played half-back for a while as part of the 'plan', but the club figures that we whilst we have others who can fill the role at half-back, there aren't any others who can play the on-ball role as well as Griffen currently does.

With a decision like Harbrow, clearly he was recognised as a 'talent' with 'AFL Skills' - he played all over the place last year. I would suggest that when Callan and Addison were both hurt (plan a, plan b as a back pocket), he was looked upon as someone with good kicking skills and leg-speed who might be a suitable 'fill-in'...of course he then made it his own.

Similarly, Johnno was a midfielder/wingman once upon a time who was thrust forward in search of a goal (team need), Merrett at Brisbane was a Full-Forward (skilled player, behind Brown and Bradshaw)...on and on it goes.

I think it is important to know what sort of players you want filling each role in the side...that way when you are searching for a solution (like when Harbrow went to the back-pocket), you dont try putting Sam Reid there as 'excellent kicking skills' is one of the pre-reqs for the role. In that way, at least you dont set the player up for failure where what YOU want from the role requires physical characteristics that they simply dont have...

[BulldogBelle]

MJP - I think that you hit the nail on the head and then put it in a nutshell.

Its unfortunate and a trifle disappointing that Griff hasn't quite risen to our high expectations of him but I think that perseverance and patience will pay off eventually.

Conversely, look at his rival Delidio. For such a great first year he isn't exactly setting the world on fire. So, maybe our expectations were set a tad too high.

[AndrewP6]

MJP - I think that you hit the nail on the head and then put it in a nutshell.

Its unfortunate and a trifle disappointing that Griff hasn't quite risen to our high expectations of him but I think that perseverance and patience will pay off eventually.

Conversely, look at his rival Delidio. For such a great first year he isn't exactly setting the world on fire. So, maybe our expectations were set a tad too high.

No he hasn't...but he's been better in the last 3 weeks...Griff is doing OK...

[GVGjr]

Conversely, look at his rival Delidio. For such a great first year he isn't exactly setting the world on fire. So, maybe our expectations were set a tad too high.

I agree with AP6, Deledio's been very good for the last month and has proven he can win his own football. The trick for his coach is to make sure he doesn't slip back for the balance of the season. Jade threatened Deledio with a spell at Coburg and he answered the challenge.

[BulldogBelle]

I have questioned the 'move to the midfield' for a couple of years.

- His starting points are 'sloppy'. When he plays hb, he seems to do a much better job of positioning himself to impact the contest than he does as a midfielder....Why? Because he starts on his opponent rather than guessing and sitting in space.

- He HAS to take on the tackler every time he wins the ball. He is almost pathological about it. From half-back, this means he has to win ONE contest (often one-on-one which he is very good at - strong through the core and hard to knock-off the ball) before taking off. In the midfield he seems to want to run over three players and often ends up disposing of the ball in desperation rather than in an attempt to attack.

- For such a good kick, he does try to 'force' things too often. He also has that wider ball drop and big hip swing that makes it difficult to be precise. From half-back, there is simply more room for error - it suits him.

For me we have turned a dominant (remember the Geelong game vs G. Ablett) half-back, preliminary final vs Collingwood) half-back into 'just another' midfielder. Boydy is a better inside mid than Griffen. Crossy probably is as well. Cooney is. Hell - Ward has had more of an impact at times this year...Put him where he is best equipped to succeed - behind the ball.


Agree with everything you have said

Do the dogs only think they will get value out of the number 3 draft selection in Griffin if they play him on the ball

Would our clearances be better if we had Cross, Cooney and Boyd at centre clearances, plus Ward in and out to relieve them...with Griff playing cameo roles on the ball, and spending the rest of his time at half back

[Scorlibo]

One bad game and we're all calling for him to be sent back to the backline.

His numbers over the last 7 games:

24.6 disposals, 4.4 tackles, 4.6 inside fifties, 103 ranking points.

To put that in perspective, here are Judd's numbers over the past 7 weeks:

24.7 disposals, 4.7 tackles, 5.9 inside fifties, 104.7 ranking points.

Not much difference.

We recruited Ryan as a midfielder, the half back role was mostly for purpose of defensive education, and was a good position for him while he developed enough physically to match it in the midfield. When he made the switch we were always going to see less run and carry, but we are also seeing more inside work which he is very good at with his big frame. Not to mention that Harbrow has thrived in the half back role which was once Griffen's.

[GVGjr]

One bad game and we're all calling for him to be sent back to the backline.



I can't speak for the others but that's not the way I see it at all. He was OK yesterday, not great but nowhere near bad.

I'd just like to see Griffen get back to his barnstorming best and I think having him positioned on a wing or across half back would be a positive for the side.

[mjp]

One bad game and we're all calling for him to be sent back to the backline.


Not me. I just dont understand - and never have - the obsession with moving him to the midfield as if it was going to be some kind of answer to the problems of the world.

I think it stems from what I call an under 12's mentality that 'the players in the centre are the best players'...the thing is at AFL level it really doesn't matter who the best players are - it is all about winning and it is being the best team that is important.

As for comparing Judd and Griffen - whatever. Carlton aren't going that flash at the moment - the fact that the commentators love Chris Judd seems to cover up a number of obvious weaknesses in his game - start with defensive accountability, add goalkicking and ability to mark under pressure...and the fact that the explosive breakaway speed that was on show from 2004-2006 now primarily lives in the memory of West Coast supporters.

All I am suggesting is that Griffen is a good midfielder - but I thought he was becoming a generational half-back before the change of positions.

[Scorlibo]

Ok, I see where you're coming from, and only time will tell whether Griffen's midfield move was a good one, it's just my opinion that at his peak (which we are yet to see) he will be of much better use in the midfield than at half back.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Not me. I just dont understand - and never have - the obsession with moving him to the midfield as if it was going to be some kind of answer to the problems of the world.

I think it stems from what I call an under 12's mentality that 'the players in the centre are the best players'...the thing is at AFL level it really doesn't matter who the best players are - it is all about winning and it is being the best team that is important.

As for comparing Judd and Griffen - whatever. Carlton aren't going that flash at the moment - the fact that the commentators love Chris Judd seems to cover up a number of obvious weaknesses in his game - start with defensive accountability, add goalkicking and ability to mark under pressure...and the fact that the explosive breakaway speed that was on show from 2004-2006 now primarily lives in the memory of West Coast supporters.

All I am suggesting is that Griffen is a good midfielder - but I thought he was becoming a generational half-back before the change of positions.

Very good posts MJP.

It seems like the club is going to keep perservering but it would be nice to see him play a couple of games across the half back again. There are a number of factors as to why he might not be playing his best footy this year, inculding on a personal level, but I am surprised the club hasn't tried to 'free' Griffen up a little. A move to the half back would benefit.

It's a good point MJP makes about the mentality of having your best players in the middle of the ground. Perhaps we should take a look at Hawthorn and what they've done with Hodge for the most part of his career. I know he's playing in the midfield lately, but he won them a flag playing half back. Griff would obviously play a different role but I think he could ultimately have a similar effect.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Hawthorn moved their best midfielder to halfback last year and he won a Norm Smith.

[hujsh]

Would Griff be a good enough defender to go play half back again? We've really tightened the defense up since he and McMahon have left it.

[DOG GOD]

Very good insights MJP...much appreciated. I for one, would rather see Griff "KILL IT" at HB, then be a servicable midfielder. I would honestly say that Ward looks far more destined to be an inside mid (with great vision and kicking skills), to allow Griff to make hbf HIS OWN!!

When we're not plying well, we can become stagnated around half back. I thought that Griff (taking the game on), was an ideal choice.

I guess time will tell when it comes to Griff. I hope he does make it as a genuine mid for the team, but i hate to think the coaches are destroying a "GUN" hbf to make a "GOOD" mid.

[boydogs]

I guess time will tell when it comes to Griff. I hope he does make it as a genuine mid for the team, but i hate to think the coaches are destroying a "GUN" hbf to make a "GOOD" mid.

I thought they were doing the same with Gilbee at the start of the year. Griffen is a lot younger and has shown a lot more in the midfield, I think Harbrow, Hargrave and Gilbee down back is sufficient for taking the opposition on

[BulldogBelle]

OK

Is the following our ideal backline this season?

Harbrow Lake Morris
Hargrave Williams Gilbee

To me it has two talls defenders, both mobile enough to take the gorillas and resting ruckman, it has a small/quick/nimble in Harbrow, two versatile defenders in Morris and Hargrave who take can big or small defenders, and two of our best kicks in Gilbee and Hargrave

In terms of what Griff would offer us at half back is run, the ability to take on opponents, a decent kick, someone who will give us run and carry into attack...

I dont see Griff playing at HB as being such a bad option...when Gilbee has played further up the ground this season he has kicked quite a few goals....

Gilbee on a wing and Griff at HB...

Eagle to Willy

[Scorlibo]

Hawthorn moved their best midfielder to halfback last year and he won a Norm Smith.

And yet he started at half back this year only to return to the midfield to great effect lately.

His move to half back was induced by necessity more than because that's his best position. We have rebounding defenders already, we don't need Griff to go to the back line.

[LostDog]

Should be apologising to Sam Reid, Griffen is the new Farren

[DOG GOD]

Griff, Murph and Gia were not up to playing a final...poor selection by the match committee.

[LostDoggy]

Griff, Murph and Gia were not up to playing a final...poor selection by the match committee.


Agreed all three were poor.
They were not alone however.

[Mofra]

Griff, Murph and Gia were not up to playing a final...poor selection by the match committee.
Didn't think Murph was as poor as the other two.

Hahn is the one that worries me. He did very little, and his finals record is something like 1 goal from 4 games - simply not good enough.
I know a few want to cut Welsh, but he is miles ahead of Hahn when he gets on the paddock.

[Ozza]

Didn't think Murphy or Gia were poor. Griffen was a little down - but maybe somewhat underdone.
Hargrave was worst on for mine. Chappy got a big hold of him early - and he kicked it terribly.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Griff, Murph and Gia were not up to playing a final...poor selection by the match committee.

I really can't see any situation other than injury that would've seen the selectors justified in not selecting Murph.

If they dropped him cause they think he doesn't have what it takes to play finals, then they should've traded him by now.
When firing his is pivotal to our game.

Imagine the out-cry had Murphy been dropped for this game? Even more if the same result occurred. Eade & Co would've been panned (and rightly so) by all quarters for making such a decision.

No doubt this loss is disappointing, but I think we are forgetting somewhat that Geelong have been a consistent quality team for several seasons, and there was always going to be a big difference to the team we beat in Round 21, when playing them in finals.

We played poorly yet were one goal away (with about 6 mins to go) from getting into a winning position. As gutted as a the players feel, I think that there is more to build from for next week, than there was when we got pumped by the Hawks 12 months ago.

Geelong and the Saints have proven over the course of the season to be the benchmarks, and we are still a bit behind them when it comes to the cauldron of finals football.

[DOG GOD]

Murphy and Gia SHOULD be playing at full tilt or not play...we cant afford to carry players that are not match fit in a god damn final. We dont have the "stars" like some of the other teams so we need workmanlike efforts, and when the ball gets away from Murph and Gia then its long gone. neither can run. Neither can jump. I'm not saying THEY are the reason we lost, but it surely doesnt help.

While I'm at it, Hill needs to have a kamikaze approach coz he is SOFT in a contest.

I also agree with the other poster. Welsh looked ok today in defense. Hahn is a bit of a liabilty ATM.

[Ozza]

What is wrong with you blokes? Murphy lead up and looked to create all day. Were you at the game?

[vho]

IF Adelaide offered a straight swap for Tippet would you take it? He's an Adelaide boy. I would run naked around the house if it were the case.

[DOG GOD]

IF Adelaide offered a straight swap for Tippet would you take it? He's an Adelaide boy. I would run naked around the house if it were the case.

We'd be idiots if we didnt :)

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Murphy and Gia SHOULD be playing at full tilt or not play...we cant afford to carry players that are not match fit in a god damn final. We dont have the "stars" like some of the other teams so we need workmanlike efforts, and when the ball gets away from Murph and Gia then its long gone. neither can run. Neither can jump. I'm not saying THEY are the reason we lost, but it surely doesnt help.

While I'm at it, Hill needs to have a kamikaze approach coz he is SOFT in a contest.

I also agree with the other poster. Welsh looked ok today in defense. Hahn is a bit of a liabilty ATM.

But DG, whilst I don't disagree that Murph and Gia did not perform well today, I don't see anyway for the selectors to have not picked them for this game, especially Murph.
Gia? Maybe they could've considered it, but definitely not Murph.
It wasn't Murphs lack of zip that was his problem today, it was his poor use of the ball.

Griffen was the only one I think if they had their time again they could've considered leaving out. It too though would've been a tough call. If not selected today selectors would've then had to have conceded he would play no part in our finals series, given he would not be eligible to play for Williamstown in their finals series.

So again I can see why they chose to play him, now rather than have him lose further match-fitness for our next game.

[DOG GOD]

What is wrong with you blokes? Murphy lead up and looked to create all day. Were you at the game?

I wasnt at the game no, but living in tassie didnt make it possible, but what i did see was little if all chasing by Murphy...no ability to "jump"...he looked slow and he wasnt alone (Gia).
He may have lead and he does lead well, but really was he actually involved in the game much?

The cats backs were having field days due to the slowness of our fwd line. Murph, Welsh, hahn, Aker, Johnno, Gia, Minson.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

What is wrong with you blokes? Murphy lead up and looked to create all day. Were you at the game?

Agree his mobility and willingness to present was not a problem. He looked fit. His disposal was poor at crucial times though.
But he was far from our worst, and his effort can't be questioned.

[DOG GOD]

But DG, whilst I don't disagree that Murph and Gia did not perform well today, I don't see anyway for the selectors to have not picked them for this game, especially Murph.
Gia? Maybe they could've considered it, but definitely not Murph.
It wasn't Murphs lack of zip that was his problem today, it was his poor use of the ball.

Griffen was the only one I think if they had their time again they could've considered leaving out. It too though would've been a tough call. If not selected today selectors would've then had to have conceded he would play no part in our finals series, given he would not be eligible to play for Williamstown in their finals series.

So again I can see why they chose to play him, now rather than have him lose further match-fitness for our next game.

Yankee i understand they had to play him, but what i'm getting too is that he is far too slow in his chasing..cant jump either and he may lead well but if he doesnt mark it and the ball gets away from him then his opponent just freely runs away from him...same with Gia. Yes i wouldve played him but i wouldnt have played all 3 of Murph, Gia and Griff in a FINAL coming off injuries and being out for awhile.

[Ozza]

Agree his mobility and willingness to present was not a problem. He looked fit. His disposal was poor at crucial times though.
But he was far from our worst, and his effort can't be questioned.

Thats closer to the mark for sure. Geelong defended well so it wasn't an easy task kicking into our forward line. At least Murphy was an option throughout.

[Drunken Bum]

If not selected today selectors would've then had to have conceded he would play no part in our finals series, given he would not be eligible to play for Williamstown in their finals series.

Is this really the case? Surely it works under the same system as the old reserves where you only need to be qualified to play if the seniors arent playing? I just cant get my head around the fact that if both teams are playing and he isnt considered good or fit enough to play with the Dogs how he could be restricted from playing for Williamstown regardless of how many games he has played, surely no-one would think that we would be dropping a senior player deliberately for a better chance in the VFL finals

I mean seriously what is the point of having a reserves side if you are unable to play players out of form or coming back from injury there when both sides are playing in the finals?

[Ozza]

Yankee i understand they had to play him, but what i'm getting too is that he is far too slow in his chasing..cant jump either and he may lead well but if he doesnt mark it and the ball gets away from him then his opponent just freely runs away from him...same with Gia. Yes i wouldve played him but i wouldnt have played all 3 of Murph, Gia and Griff in a FINAL coming off injuries and being out for awhile.

All three would be in our best 12 players at the club. Suggesting they shouldn't have played is ridiculous and you're way off the mark with Murphy.

[DOG GOD]

Yeah in our best 12 FULLY FIT...thats my point.

[Happy Days]

IF Adelaide offered a straight swap for Tippet would you take it? He's an Adelaide boy. I would run naked around the house if it were the case.

In a heartbeat.

Griffen has become surplus. I think he is best off the half back flank, as opposed to the midfield, but we already have Shaggy, Gilbee, Harbrow, etc. playing that rebounding type role. Griff can play in the midfield, but we have a better version of him in their already; Cooney.

Griffen is a quality player, and has the potential to be elite. But he is not absolutely vital to our success, and is thus a prime candidate to be traded when an Adelaide or a Fremantle, for example, ask for someone of quality when we ask for Tippet or Pav.

[Rance Fan]

Looked like Hahn was injured too

[The Pie Man]

In a heartbeat.

Griffen has become surplus. I think he is best off the half back flank, as opposed to the midfield, but we already have Shaggy, Gilbee, Harbrow, etc. playing that rebounding type role. Griff can play in the midfield, but we have a better version of him in their already; Cooney.

Griffen is a quality player, and has the potential to be elite. But he is not absolutely vital to our success, and is thus a prime candidate to be traded when an Adelaide or a Fremantle, for example, ask for someone of quality when we ask for Tippet or Pav.

Me too - I've thought the exact thing for a portion of this year.

Tippett's a Gold Coast boy, so moving to Melbourne probably not high on the agenda, and the way he's been playing, the Crows would say get stuffed at the idea of a straight swap.

I'll add that Griffen was nowhere near the worst today, and I would hope he'll be better for the run and play well next week....but I'd absolutely trade him for a quality forward.

[Happy Days]

Me too - I've thought the exact thing for a portion of this year.

Tippett's a Gold Coast boy, so moving to Melbourne probably not high on the agenda, and the way he's been playing, the Crows would say get stuffed at the idea of a straight swap.

I'll add that Griffen was nowhere near the worst today, and I would hope he'll be better for the run and play well next week....but I'd absolutely trade him for a quality forward.

Bingo, exactly what I was trying to communicate. By no means was my post a reactionary one, I too have thought this for some time. I was just using Tippet as an example of the type of player for whom a swap would compensate us fully.

The fact of the matter is that we don't need Griff to win a flag.

[Topdog]

Yeah in our best 12 FULLY FIT...thats my point.

Murphy has had 2 pretty good weeks though so you can't play a fitness card with him. He has no excuses for his poor disposal.

Gia shouldn't have played in the seniors against Geelong 2 weeks back and should have come back through the reserves, you can't drop him for fitness when you have made that committment.

[DOG GOD]

Murphy has had 2 pretty good weeks though so you can't play a fitness card with him. He has no excuses for his poor disposal.

Gia shouldn't have played in the seniors against Geelong 2 weeks back and should have come back through the reserves, you can't drop him for fitness when you have made that committment.

Your right on Murph...his disposal was crap.
Gia shouldnt be playing at all at the moment...a definate liability wherever he plays coz he cant run or jump, goes to ground too easily and is defensively weak.

Seems to me the match committee had a list of THE BEST 22 and wanted them in the finals whether injured, coming back from injury or what not, and to me that is a recipe for disaster.

We base our whole game plan on our running game, but boy we have some slow players who CANT run to save themselves.

Yes we may need the experience of Gia, Murph and Griff out there in a final, BUT sometimes RAW endevour burning in the veins of young bloods Everitt or Reid or Tiller could give u more. Look at Tiller last year...came from nowhere to play finals and did it brilliantly.

[OLD SCRAGGer]

I think we put too much pressure on him i think his season has been ok he will be cherry ripe to explode on finals this year.Also to the supporters on Level 2 who bagged Griff yesterday you are pathetic

I totally agree with you. Just leave him alone, he'll come good, he need the run yesterday, he'll be ok next week.

[LostDoggy]

All we learnt yesterday in regards to those 3 players was Griffen needs to be 100%. He will be better next week. Calls to trade him are bizarre. He was our best player the start of the season.
Gia was poor but still have at least 2/3 assists, he is needed in the side. Higgins shouldn't have played late last year yet kicked 3 and kept us in the prelim.
Murphy hurt himself early yesterday, yes his decision making was poor but we had many with the same problem.

Also Geelong played as many if not more as we did underdone.

[LostDoggy]

I don't understand why people want to trade Griff. I mean do you honestly think there would be something on offer better than him. They guy still has his best footy ahead of him he has still played less than 100 games.

Murph was sore and watching Shaggy something must have been wrong with him cause it looked as though he could barely run due to lack of breath. Maybe the flu??? I don't know but for one particular supporter behind my self instead of calling for each player to be dumped remember or Griff a D/H these guys want to win it. It is what they play for to win. Yes be disappointed but for Pete's sake you can have some class even if you do loose.

[Happy Days]

All we learnt yesterday in regards to those 3 players was Griffen needs to be 100%. He will be better next week. Calls to trade him are bizarre. He was our best player the start of the season.
Gia was poor but still have at least 2/3 assists, he is needed in the side. Higgins shouldn't have played late last year yet kicked 3 and kept us in the prelim.
Murphy hurt himself early yesterday, yes his decision making was poor but we had many with the same problem.

Also Geelong played as many if not more as we did underdone.

If we want a KPP of good quality, then we have to give up something of good quality. Brent Moloney was good quality. Josh Kennedy was good quality. But by trading these two players, Geelong and Carlton became much better. I'm not saying Griffen isn't good, quite the opposite in fact. Just that we don't need him to win a flag. But it appears we do need a quality KPP.

[Sockeye Salmon]

If we want a KPP of good quality, then we have to give up something of good quality. Brent Moloney was good quality. Josh Kennedy was good quality. But by trading these two players, Geelong and Carlton became much better. I'm not saying Griffen isn't good, quite the opposite in fact. Just that we don't need him to win a flag. But it appears we do need a quality KPP.

How do you play the loyalty card with Lake and then trade off someone else?

Trading is the work of the devil.

[LostDoggy]

I think we need to put Griff on the HBF, he hasn't got the touch at the moment to play midfield. Alternatively give him a run with job - like Ablett or Bartel, at least then he maybe able to hurt them going the other way.

[BulldogBelle]

Griff plays one half-bad game after a 3 week layoff and there are calls to trade him, bit CRAZY if you ask me

He will be better for the run, and wont be able to play 4 quarters on the ball during the finals, but can easily play HBF very very well

He will get his pace back and touch and I think the HBF position is the best one to play him at against the Lions...

[Scorlibo]

Why would we want to trade Griffen? He has the most potential of anyone on our list and he's only 22 or so. He hasn't lived up to expectations this year, but those expectations were extremely lofty and he has still had the best year of his career.

The calls for him to be a 'great half back flanker' rather than a 'good midfielder' don't resonate with me. It's no coincidence that Brendon Goddard is the only elite half-back flanker (although he rotates through other positions) in the game, while there are a whole swag of elite midfielders.

The way I see it, if we moved him to the half-back flank, we would be guaranteed a very good player, but if we persist with him in the midfield there's a good chance that he'll become an elite player, and as soon as next year.

[LostDoggy]

If we want a KPP of good quality, then we have to give up something of good quality. Brent Moloney was good quality. Josh Kennedy was good quality. But by trading these two players, Geelong and Carlton became much better. I'm not saying Griffen isn't good, quite the opposite in fact. Just that we don't need him to win a flag. But it appears we do need a quality KPP.

Who gives away quality KPPs? Seriously do you think we are alone in looking for quality big men? The teams that have them don't give away good one for nothing.

BTW. Brent Moloney went for Brent Grgic, I'd say they lost on that and the Josh Kennedy trade was for the best player in the comp.

[azabob]

Who gives away quality KPPs? Seriously do you think we are alone in looking for quality big men? The teams that have them don't give away good one for nothing.

BTW. Brent Moloney went for Brent Grgic, I'd say they lost on that and the Josh Kennedy trade was for the best player in the comp.

I though Moloney was part of the Ottens trade? Geelong got Melbourne's first round draft pick which inturn got them Ottens, im thinking that is what happy days is refering to.

[LostDoggy]

I though Moloney was part of the Ottens trade? Geelong got Melbourne's first round draft pick which inturn got them Ottens, im thinking that is what happy days is refering to.

Sorry your right. First round and Moloney, still the point is if want a good KP then you give away Griffen and then some.

[azabob]

Sorry your right. First round and Moloney, still the point is if want a good KP then you give away Griffen and then some.

Yep totally agree. And reality is as you've said No One will trade a quailty KPP. You need to draft and develop your own.

[LostDoggy]

Yep totally agree. And reality is as you've said No One will trade a quailty KPP. You need to draft and develop your own.

They'll trade you one, if you give them your heart and soul.

[anfo27]

No way in the world we should trade Griffen. We all expect too much from the kid. To have a 3 week lay off & expect him to come back in a final & dominate is unrealistic.

[LostDoggy]

No way in the world we should trade Griffen. We all expect too much from the kid. To have a 3 week lay off & expect him to come back in a final & dominate is unrealistic.

We didn't expect him to dominate though it would have been nice. Its the routine things which let him down ie awareness, speed, skill, decision making, etc.

[Stefcep]

i just don't see what people mean when they believe Griffen is an elite player. Really I don't. He backs himself to break tackles but hardly ever does. He goes for a long run but hardly ever makes the final kick count, either for goal or as a pass. His footpassing is suspect. He fades in and out of games, can't remember a recent four-quarter effort. I think 2 seasons ago he showed the potential, but hasn't delivered in the time since. Is he a Selwood, an Ablett, a Judd, a Stevens, a Del Santo, a Simon Black, a Didak or Swanjust off the top of my head. Where does the "elite come in?

[Stefcep]

We didn't expect him to dominate though it would have been nice. Its the routine things which let him down ie awareness, speed, skill, decision making, etc.

x2. None of this is stuff that just happened this week, though, been like that for 2-3 seasons now.

[LostDoggy]

i just don't see what people mean when they believe Griffen is an elite player. Really I don't. He backs himself to break tackles but hardly ever does. He goes for a long run but hardly ever makes the final kick count, either for goal or as a pass. His footpassing is suspect. He fades in and out of games, can't remember a recent four-quarter effort. I think 2 seasons ago he showed the potential, but hasn't delivered in the time since. Is he a Selwood, an Ablett, a Judd, a Stevens, a Del Santo, a Simon Black, a Didak or Swanjust off the top of my head. Where does the "elite come in?

Stevens elite?

Who said elite about Griffen here? Had he continued his early season form he would have been elite.

[boydogs]

i just don't see what people mean when they believe Griffen is an elite player. Really I don't. He backs himself to break tackles but hardly ever does. He goes for a long run but hardly ever makes the final kick count, either for goal or as a pass. His footpassing is suspect. He fades in and out of games, can't remember a recent four-quarter effort. I think 2 seasons ago he showed the potential, but hasn't delivered in the time since. Is he a Selwood, an Ablett, a Judd, a Stevens, a Del Santo, a Simon Black, a Didak or Swanjust off the top of my head. Where does the "elite come in?

Obviously with my name I am a fan.
Much like Cooney, Griffen has previously shown an ability to break tackles, run into space and deliver up field. At his best he is evasive and lightning quick with great skills. Unfortunately you now have to go back a bit to find examples of this and he has had a disappointing year for mine, regardless of his hamstring injury and his game yesterday. The death of his Father may be a factor, but whatever it is I hope he can get back to his best, I have not yet given up on him showing us his quality this year which would make a big difference in our ability to break the defensive strangeholds of the Cats and Saints

[GVGjr]

Griffen is not the sort of player that can miss a few games and come back in and dominate. He's probably not regarded as a naturally fit player and it's one of the reasons why I'd be more than happy for him to be left playing across the half back line.

[lemmon]

Griffen is not the sort of player that can miss a few games and come back in and dominate. He's probably not regarded as a naturally fit player and it's one of the reasons why I'd be more than happy for him to be left playing across the half back line.

What about a run in the forward line, good hands, quick on the lead surely he would be handy.

[The Pie Man]

I don't understand why people want to trade Griff. I mean do you honestly think there would be something on offer better than him. They guy still has his best footy ahead of him he has still played less than 100 games.


Probably not - how do I put this without it sounding like I'm contradicting myself - I'm not saying trade him, just that I would IF a quality forward were available.....there likely won't be one, so we will persevere.

This isn't a reactionary thing for me - I've thought this for a fair bit of the season, and then I saw our midfield function very well without him rounds 20-22. Then you have Wood, Reid, Addison that can play midfield....and I think if Griffen has any value in the market, I'd use it. With that belief, I imagine the vast majority of WOOF will be very happy I'm not making those decisions at the club :p

I'll also repeat, I don't think he was our worst yesterday, and will hopefully be much better for the run and play well next week. I'm not real dirty on him - I am on Mitch Hahn, but not Griff.

[LostDoggy]

Griffen is not the sort of player that can miss a few games and come back in and dominate. He's probably not regarded as a naturally fit player and it's one of the reasons why I'd be more than happy for him to be left playing across the half back line.

Totally agree.

I think he adds more value to the side playing there, it's the one position where we seen more consistent performances from him. He was quick, explosive, broke teams open & would kick long running goals, i would be more then happy to see Eade put him there & keep him there.

[Stefcep]

Obviously with my name I am a fan.
Much like Cooney, Griffen has previously shown an ability to break tackles, run into space and deliver up field. At his best he is evasive and lightning quick with great skills. Unfortunately you now have to go back a bit to find examples of this and he has had a disappointing year for mine, regardless of his hamstring injury and his game yesterday. The death of his Father may be a factor, but whatever it is I hope he can get back to his best, I have not yet given up on him showing us his quality this year which would make a big difference in our ability to break the defensive strangeholds of the Cats and Saints

cooney has that extraordinary burst of pace in the first 10 yards that lets him break tackles. the number of times Griffen's been caught trying to break tackles has me wondering if this is a coaching directive. same with the long runs. if so the coaching stuff would do well to tell him to choose the more effective, less spectacular option. its hard these days to consistently break tackles in the middle, its hard to run for 50-70 metres and and full pelt nail the goal or the pass (plus it puts the forwards out of position)

[boydogs]

cooney has that extraordinary burst of pace in the first 10 yards that lets him break tackles. the number of times Griffen's been caught trying to break tackles has me wondering if this is a coaching directive. same with the long runs. if so the coaching stuff would do well to tell him to choose the more effective, less spectacular option. its hard these days to consistently break tackles in the middle, its hard to run for 50-70 metres and and full pelt nail the goal or the pass (plus it puts the forwards out of position)

Griff did not adjust his approach yesterday despite lacking his usual acceleration, when he probably should have. It looks very bad when it doesn't come off, and is very damaging in turning the ball over as opposed to a chip kick or sideways handball instead of trying to run another 15 metres to be in range of a longer option. It must be difficult though to change a lifetime of habits, I think it shows we must be careful in playing him underdone as he does not ease himself back in and tries to do what he is not up to.

[Sockeye Salmon]

22 yo potential superstar who hasn't yet peaked.

They're the blokes you trade in, not out.

[Desipura]

Someone asked me the question a few weeks back Taylor Walker for Griffen, I replied with a half hearted no.

[LostDoggy]

Probably not - how do I put this without it sounding like I'm contradicting myself - I'm not saying trade him, just that I would IF a quality forward were available.....there likely won't be one, so we will persevere.

This isn't a reactionary thing for me - I've thought this for a fair bit of the season, and then I saw our midfield function very well without him rounds 20-22. Then you have Wood, Reid, Addison that can play midfield....and I think if Griffen has any value in the market, I'd use it. With that belief, I imagine the vast majority of WOOF will be very happy I'm not making those decisions at the club :p

I'll also repeat, I don't think he was our worst yesterday, and will hopefully be much better for the run and play well next week. I'm not real dirty on him - I am on Mitch Hahn, but not Griff.

If it has been your thought throughout a fair bit of the year I commend you for standing by your conviction, but reserve my right to disagree with it. I believe in the event another, older, retired footballer comes to the club I would say Hahn's position would be in doubt.

[LostDoggy]

Just go and watch some of his youtube highlights...

Tell me you still want to trade him away.

[LostDoggy]

22 yo potential superstar who hasn't yet peaked.

They're the blokes you trade in, not out.

Agreed. He will prove to be in the Cooney class.

The last thing we need to do is to restrict him from taking the game and the opposition on. He will get the timing of those runs right and then look out. One of the more exciting young players we have had.

[chef]

I though Moloney was part of the Ottens trade? Geelong got Melbourne's first round draft pick which inturn got them Ottens, im thinking that is what happy days is refering to.

In 2004 Pick 12 was originally traded by WCE to the Crows in part of the deal to get Stenglein. Pick 12 was then traded by the Crows for Scott Thompson, then the Demons traded pick 12 for Moloney. Picks 12 and 16 were then traded to Richmond for Ottens. Richmond then used those picks to get Danny Meyer and Adam Pattison:D.

Brent Grgic was traded to Geelong for pick 55 which was used on Brad Miller.

[The Pie Man]

I'd like to clarify my position on Griff - I'm not asking that we trade him, just saying that if we were to give up anyone of considerable value to get value, that I'd look in that direction. I'm not sure how popular within the group he is, I imagine he's well liked, and if it were a chance to destroy any bonds internally then my position would firm the other way with most other people.

I do hope I see another 8-10 years of high quality footy from him - I was absolutley in love with him at the end of 06, and I've just fallen out of love with him a bit, and thought our midfield looked ok in the last 3 weeks of the season.

But power to him, I won't post on this issue anymore, trading can be the work of the devil as SS has mentioned.

[Happy Days]

I'd like to clarify my position on Griff - I'm not asking that we trade him, just saying that if we were to give up anyone of considerable value to get value, that I'd look in that direction. I'm not sure how popular within the group he is, I imagine he's well liked, and if it were a chance to destroy any bonds internally then my position would firm the other way with most other people.


Spot on; this is what I was trying to say, but you have conveyed it far superior than I could have.

[LostDoggy]

I'd like to clarify my position on Griff - I'm not asking that we trade him, just saying that if we were to give up anyone of considerable value to get value, that I'd look in that direction. I'm not sure how popular within the group he is, I imagine he's well liked, and if it were a chance to destroy any bonds internally then my position would firm the other way with most other people.


Its a silly argument as we would have to give him up and someone else good or a 1st round to get what we want.

[The Pie Man]

Its a silly argument as we would have to give him up and someone else good or a 1st round to get what we want.

Yes that would probably be the likely scenario, which doesn't look an attractive proposition I agree.

Onwards & upwards

[LostDoggy]

We shouldnt trade him - but it is just so disappointing watching him play when he doesnt work hard enough as was the case on Saturday. He has all the class and skills to be a top line midfielder and I think his time will come, i just want to see him work hard to get there...not coast.

[The Pie Man]

Listening to SEN this morning, KB mentioned he's heard Griffen is keen to 'return home' (in the same minute they mentioned Raines from Richmond going to Brisbane for a 3rd round pick)

I hadn't heard this before - is he just rumour mongering?

[LostDoggy]

I hope it's an untrue rumour but considering the events in Griff's family this year you could understand why I guess.

But I hope it is just because of a slow news day and that it has no substance.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I wouldn't believe a word Bartlett says although with what happened at the start of the year I wouldn't be surprised.

Griff's not really the one I'm worried about. I'm more concerned about hanging on to some other South Australians - the big full back kind and the Brownlow medal winning ranga kind.

[Mantis]

I wouldn't believe a word Bartlett says although with what happened at the start of the year I wouldn't be surprised.

Griff's not really the one I'm worried about. I'm more concerned about hanging on to some other South Australians - the big full back kind and the Brownlow medal winning ranga kind.

I think the big FB might be safe, but I too am I little worried that when GC & WS start splurging the moolah that a certain Burger ring munching ranga might be swayed to leave WO.

[Topdog]

KB has no idea what goes on at his own club, what makes you think he has any idea about ours?

[Hot_Doggies]

I would be happy with a straight swap for Dangerfield.

[Mofra]

I would be happy with a straight swap for Dangerfield.
I'd be wrapped but there is no way the Crows would part with a guy they regard as Roo mk2.

[azabob]

I think the big FB might be safe, but I too am I little worried that when GC & WS start splurging the moolah that a certain Burger ring munching ranga might be swayed to leave WO.

Really? He seems the type of bloke who loves being around his mates and values family.

I'd be suprised if he left, he'd be close to our highest paid player.

[Topdog]

What do people think of Griffen playing Eagleton's role next season?

[Mofra]

What do people think of Griffen playing Eagleton's role next season?
Not sure he has the engine or the leg-cannon of Eagle. Gut-runners are an underrated species as most of their hard work is done in the opposite direction of where the crowd is looking.

[LostDoggy]

Would we entertain Griffen for Tippett trade?

[comrade]

Would we entertain Griffen for Tippett trade?

Definitely.

I doubt Adelaide would.

[LostDoggy]

Or perhaps Taylor Walker.

[Topdog]

No to Walker. Yes to Tippett.

[Ozza]

Definitely.

I doubt Adelaide would.

I agree with this. No way would Adelaide give up a tall marking fwd on the rise for a midfielder. Adelaide are fairly similar to us in terms of a strong midfield base of good running players - but have lacked good tall forwards in recent years. Tippett could make the difference of them being a good side and a very good side (may already being doing so).

[chef]

I would be happy with a straight swap for Dangerfield.

Bernie Vince.

[Scorlibo]

Would we entertain Griffen for Tippett trade?

No, Griff stays no matter what imo.:mad: Getting sick of all the trade calls.

[soupman]

It'll be interesting to see how many suddenly change their idea of his value to us after tonights game. All of a sudden its a lot harder to go "yeah, I'd be happy to trade him".

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Was just about on course to be the most influential player tonight prior to his corky in the 3rd. Fantastic to see that when the acid was put on him, he responded with a great game.
Calls for his trading very premature.
I still say Griff is has the ability to become a once in a generation midfielder and I would give him at least two more years to show it, before even considering muttering the 'trade?' query.
At 23 his best years are just about to start.

[Rance Fan]

Great game tonight by griff, will need it again next week.

[bulldogsman]

It's funny with Griff, as soon as the responsiblity is put on him he usually delivers. At the start of the season he was basically our number 1 mid and started off excellent. Good signs

[cambo]

didnt look good the way he limped off the ground, hope medicos work wonders we need him next week

[lemmon]

Still needs to polish up his skills on the run. Still a very influential game

[LostDoggy]

Was great tonight I thought

[The Coon Dog]

I just wish when he kicked for goal he'd get a bit of bloody elevation!

[angelopetraglia]

I just wish when he kicked for goal he'd get a bit of bloody elevation!

Don't care as long as they go through. Hope his calf comes up. When he is up and running he is super important to our chances.

[lemmon]

I just wish when he kicked for goal he'd get a bit of bloody elevation!

Ha Ha, I got a bit nervous on that one as well

[The Coon Dog]

Don't care as long as they go through. Hope his calf comes up. When he is up and running he is super important to our chances.

That's the point though, they don't always go through. A number of times his kicks have been at a billion miles an hour, but no higher than half a dozen feet off the ground & a defender has got a hand on them.

[angelopetraglia]

Eade: Griff will be fine. Definitely play next week.

[The Coon Dog]

Eade: Griff will be fine. Definitely play next week.

Phew! He was much better tonight.

[angelopetraglia]

Phew! He was much better tonight.

Just watched the press conference. Eade said he kicked himself in the calf! Just a corky.

[AndrewP6]

I thought he did really well tonight...seemed to run hard, and was able to evade players, which he's been missing. Made me nervous on that low, spearing goal!

Hope Eade is right and he is OK to go next week. And I don't want to trade him.

[gohardorgohome]

I just wish when he kicked for goal he'd get a bit of bloody elevation!
Three golden oldie rules for playing footy in the wind....

Keep your kicks low ...they are less likely to get blown off direction...(this is what griff did).

Run hard to follow up your kicks against the wind.......you might have a chance of getting a handball recieve...


Stand on the downwind side of....

your opponent
A ball up or throw in...

You'll pick up a few extra easy possies...

[Mantis]

Phew! He was much better tonight.

He must have been stung into action after being put on notice by Gary Lyon. :rolleyes:

[G-Mo77]

I thought Griffen was fantastic last night. I had him close to BOG until he went off early in the 4th.

[gohardorgohome]

It is my gut feel that Griffen need a bigger pre season to build his tank.

He always looks like he is taking in the big breaths more than most after he puts in a second or third effort.

Being a burst type player his body make up may never be able to build a decent tank.

[LostDoggy]

Kicked himself in the calf. Should be right to get up. Well played by him tonight.

[Ozza]

Back to his best. Has already played some sensational finals in his short career.

[The Pie Man]

How exactly does one kick themselves in the calf?

Agreed he had a great game, I hope he can carry that through for another fortnight. Favourite moment was outrunning a diving Rich

[westdog54]

Three golden oldie rules for playing footy in the wind....

Keep your kicks low ...they are less likely to get blown off direction...(this is what griff did).

Run hard to follow up your kicks against the wind.......you might have a chance of getting a handball recieve...


Stand on the downwind side of....

your opponent
A ball up or throw in...

You'll pick up a few extra easy possies...

I thought the low kicks for goal on the run would have been a team instruction. Anything on the run seemed to be hard and low.

Loved Griff's work last night. The handball in the first to hit Eagleton on the run was poetry in motion. Didn't have to change his line or break his stride. Loved the run against Rich as well. I was waiting for him to turn around and wave bye-bye.

[anfo27]

I thought Griffen was fantastic last night. I had him close to BOG until he went off early in the 4th.

Agreed, thought he was our best at 3/4 time.

[w3design]

Please don't trade him or even think about it.

I'm really not sure where the myth that he doesn't perform in finals comes from. He was underdone last week for sure, but otherwise I think he has played some good finals.

In 2008 - he was one of our better players in the hideous hawthorn final. And he was fantastic in the sydney final, let's not forget that breathtaking goal on the run. He didn't have a great PF but was not alone. In 07 he was one of the kids who ran rampant all over collingwood at the G.

We all want him to be even better, and I believe he will be. Let's make a judgement after the finals series concludes.

[azabob]

He must have been stung into action after being put on notice by Gary Lyon. :rolleyes:

Like him or not what Lyon said about Griffen was spot on.

[Mantis]

Like him or not what Lyon said about Griffen was spot on.

Can't agree with that.

If Lyon watched Ryan every week he would have seen that he has had a pretty good year and has developed other aspects of his game. He watches him play one poor game after a 3 week lay-off and feels the need to put him under the 'grill'.

Poor form in my opinion.

[azabob]

Can't agree with that.

If Lyon watched Ryan every week he would have seen that he has had a pretty good year and has developed other aspects of his game. He watches him play one poor game after a 3 week lay-off and feels the need to put him under the 'grill'.

Poor form in my opinion.

Fair enough. To me I thought the piece on Griffen was more saying he is capable of playing great games in finals.
To Lyon's credit he did mention that Griffen has played good in finals previous to last night.

Reality is who cares what anyone writes, all Im glad is that Griffen played well last night.

[Go_Dogs]

Thought this thread could use a bump:

Griff has looked terrific the last few weeks, and seems to have really settled in well to his role in the midfield. We've seen him start in the centre square, and also off the wing - and he's looked good coming off either spot.

I liked the fact that he seemed to spend a bit of time forward last night too. For mine, he's a very dangerous player in the F50, and hope we see a bit more of him up there throughout the year.

But anyway, back to the debate: Are people more confident now that he can become that elite midfielder? The last 5 or 6 games he's played there (including the finals of last year) he has been outstanding. Seems to have finally found his feet, seems to have shaken off the cobwebs, and looks very fit and very fast. His kicking has been a treat.

[mighty_west]

He really needs to take that next step, and so far so good with the pre season games, i thought he was terrific last night, last year he would take players on, but get caught alot, last night the Power looked a quicker side than us, yet Griff really put on the afterburners a few times and got clear, hit Bazza on the chest a few times, was great to see.

[EasternWest]

Looks super fit. I've never really though he was fit enough, but just looks terrific right now.

[LostDoggy]

He's that player we need to break the packs when the ball just wont come out. He showed he can do that last night with ran up the wing with a drilling pass to Hahn I believe..he played very well last night.

[EasternWest]

He's that player we need to break the packs when the ball just wont come out. He showed he can do that last night with ran up the wing with a drilling pass to Hahn I believe..he played very well last night.

Oh how good was that sequence of play? From Picken's fumbling snatch of the ball to Will for the slick handball and Griff just put on the afterburner. Then put it on Mitch's nose. Nice.

[LostDoggy]

really have the feeling that this could be the year we have waited for...expecting an all australian season from Griff.

his evolution as a midfielder has been on the upward scale now for the past 2-3 years...he has developed a really nice all round game.

2008 saw him as a very good outside type running midfielder, 2009 saw him develop his contested/inside game and i believe we are going to see it all this year.

[Dazza]

Do you think Griffen will ever be capable of consistent 30+ possession games? I just can't see it happening to be honest. He does alot with the ball when he has it which is great though.

[Go_Dogs]

Do you think Griffen will ever be capable of consistent 30+ possession games? I just can't see it happening to be honest. He does alot with the ball when he has it which is great though.

It's an interesting one isn't it?

He certainly stepped up his handball receives last year, and he can win his own ball. He's often looked for too, as someone whose hands we want the ball in. I'm not convinced he'll consistently rack massive 30+ numbers, but I think we'll continue to see his average possession count increase again this season.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

It's an interesting one isn't it?

He certainly stepped up his handball receives last year, and he can win his own ball. He's often looked for too, as someone whose hands we want the ball in. I'm not convinced he'll consistently rack massive 30+ numbers, but I think we'll continue to see his average possession count increase again this season.

How valuable are 30 possession games in today's era?

Obviously Ablett, Cooney etc. find plenty of the ball but I think at least five of those would be relatively cheap kicks/handpasses in the back half of the ground. Obviously they do work harder all over the ground, though.

Griffen probably hasn't done that (or much of it) to date, but perhaps it's something that he'll look to get himself more involved with. If you're not playing well - at the very least it can build a little confidence and touch.

At the same time, opposition do work hard to curb Griffen's influence so he probably finds it tougher to find open space. Something he needs to keep working on, but with an increased fitness base it could come.

If Griffen can average between 24-28 possessions a game, it'd be pretty handy.

[soupman]

One small change he could make to become much more influential would be to kick his goals on the run.

At the moment he's a bit Farren Ray like in that as he approaches the 50m mark on the run I get more worried about his disposal. For some reason he doesn't seem to want to get any height on his shots on goal, and also does this stupid Buddy like curve just before he kicks it. If he starts kicking those goals he'll be a much more dangerous midfielder for it.

[Mofra]

Do you think Griffen will ever be capable of consistent 30+ possession games?
No - and he doesn't need to. If I had to judge his games by stats, I'd keep an eye on the running bounce tally as that is when he is taking the opposition on, smashing their zone and moving the ball forward quickly, which is what modern football is all about.

I thought he was fantastic on Friday, showing the sort of flair which is exactly what we need from him.

[Bulldog Joe]

Do you think Griffen will ever be capable of consistent 30+ possession games? I just can't see it happening to be honest. He does alot with the ball when he has it which is great though.

Don't ever expect Griff to be the 30 possie player.

Because of his run he really has the equivalent influence of 2 possessions every time he gets a kick.

It is equivalent to handballing to a player on the run, except Griff does it all himself.

If Griff ever has a 30 possession game the team will definitely win. He just has too much influence with his possession not to be outstanding, when he gets a lot of the ball.

[Doggy]

Griffin is paying $101.00 on Betchoice for the Brownlow. I have wacked a twenty on him. On form its looking like a great bet. I also have Cooney at $51.00.

[hujsh]

Do you think Griffen will ever be capable of consistent 30+ possession games? I just can't see it happening to be honest. He does alot with the ball when he has it which is great though.

Goodes won his second Brownlow without those 30+ possession games. It the influence you have, not the numbers you get. Though it gets confused sometimes in this dream team era.

[Dazza]

Out of curiosity who would you prefer having 25+ possessions Griffen, Gia or Eagleton? I think in general when these three play well we generally go on to win the game.

I'd personally take Gia with his delivery into the forward line.

[Bulldog Joe]

Out of curiosity who would you prefer having 25+ possessions Griffen, Gia or Eagleton? I think in general when these three play well we generally go on to win the game.

I'd personally take Gia with his delivery into the forward line.

Good question.

I think I am happy with any of the three as I don't think we lose many games when one of them plays well and probably never if any 2 of them get plenty of it.

If we had to choose one I would say Griff because he is generally worth a kick and a half with his run and carry. I think Murphy and Hall would prefer Gia because he just hits the target better.

[Mantis]

Out of curiosity who would you prefer having 25+ possessions Griffen, Gia or Eagleton? I think in general when these three play well we generally go on to win the game.

I'd personally take Gia with his delivery into the forward line.

I guess with statistics you always have to take into account where & how they were achieved. In some games players can sit across half back and chip it around and rack up huge numbers (Ryan Hargrave vs Collingwood rd 22, 27k, 19m, 5h), but in hard/ tight affairs a 20 possession game can be much more effective.

With all things being equal I would take a 25 possession game from Griffen. He is always up near the top with metres gained so you would think that his stats will count.

The more and more I think about it I see Griffen as being the player who will turn us from a top 4 team into a premiership team... His ability to break from the clearance is just so damn important.

[chef]

Easily the biggest tease in our team IMO, Promises so much but doesn't deliver often enough. A breakout year from Griffen will go a long way for us becoming premiers.

[Cyberdoggie]

One small change he could make to become much more influential would be to kick his goals on the run.

At the moment he's a bit Farren Ray like in that as he approaches the 50m mark on the run I get more worried about his disposal. For some reason he doesn't seem to want to get any height on his shots on goal, and also does this stupid Buddy like curve just before he kicks it. If he starts kicking those goals he'll be a much more dangerous midfielder for it.

His kicking action is a problem. At some point he has probably worked out that he can kick across his body very well, (and it is a good skill to have), but he has neglected or failed to develop the standard ability to kick straight, and while running straight.
Callan Ward is a good example of a player that kicks perfectly straight. Not just the ball travelling through the air but it comes from his straight kicking action.
I believe it's got worse for Griffen since he has been with us, and now that he misses easy set shot goals and some passes because of it, his confidence at times gets effected.

Along with his across the body action he also stabs the ball with a quick flick, and doesn't follow through. Possibly a product of playing in the midfield and kicking on the run most of his career.

[LostDoggy]

With all things being equal I would take a 25 possession game from Griffen. He is always up near the top with metres gained so you would think that his stats will count. .

Just to provide some context to the discussion, 30+ possession games are 'rare' even from top-line possession getters. Most of the top guys (Judd, Coons, Crossy) average in the mid-20s (from memory Crossy is 24.5 and Juddy around 24.9?), but we all remember their 30+ games so assume that every game is like that for them. Of today's players only Gablett is a consistently 30+ possession getter, which is why he is a real freak (but he also makes every possession a double because in true Geelong style he immediately hands it off and runs to receive and so inflates the stats).

All this is just to say that if Griff is averaging 25 possies a game he would have become one of the games top-line ball winners and be a no-brainer top 5 player in the comp so we would all certainly 'take' it. He is currently averaging under 20 if my memory serves me correctly so it would be a huge step (but one he is capable of, no doubt).

[edit: just looked up his stats -- he's averaging 17.9 over his career but averaged 22.0 in 2009 which was a dramatic increase over previous years, so he's getting up there, and would suggest that 2009 WAS his 'break out' year despite popular perception.]

[LostDoggy]

Griffin is paying $101.00 on Betchoice for the Brownlow. I have wacked a twenty on him. On form its looking like a great bet. I also have Cooney at $51.00.
Ditto, we had $10 on Cooney & Boyd @ $51, Higgins & Griff @ $101

[Mantis]

Just to provide some context to the discussion, 30+ possession games are 'rare' even from top-line possession getters. Most of the top guys (Judd, Coons, Crossy) average in the mid-20s (from memory Crossy is 24.5 and Juddy around 24.9?), but we all remember their 30+ games so assume that every game is like that for them. Of today's players only Gablett is a consistently 30+ possession getter, which is why he is a real freak (but he also makes every possession a double because in true Geelong style he immediately hands it off and runs to receive and so inflates the stats).

All this is just to say that if Griff is averaging 25 possies a game he would have become one of the games top-line ball winners and be a no-brainer top 5 player in the comp so we would all certainly 'take' it. He is currently averaging under 20 if my memory serves me correctly so it would be a huge step (but one he is capable of, no doubt).

[edit: just looked up his stats -- he's averaging 17.9 over his career but averaged 22.0 in 2009 which was a dramatic increase over previous years, so he's getting up there, and would suggest that 2009 WAS his 'break out' year despite popular perception.]

Our fans (all fans) have become brainwashed by stats and it's due to fantasy footy.

More stats, means more points, which means the better player you are ?? I just don't buy it.

Point in reference in my opinion are Boyd & Cross. These guys consistently get 25+ touches per week, but the quality and effectiveness of these possessions can be poles apart. Very good players in their own right, but sometimes they just don't hurt you with the ball. In my opinion Crossy's 39 possesion game in the 08 QF was almost the worst 39 possession game of all time as his touches had no influence on the game. At the other end of the ground Hodge had less than 20 playing a similiar role and was the 2nd best player on the ground.

So what do we take from that litle rant? I couldn't give a stuff if Griffen or Cross or any other player get career high or career low (within reason) possession averages as what they do with the ball is more important. I am all for quality rather than quantity.

[Go_Dogs]

The more and more I think about it I see Griffen as being the player who will turn us from a top 4 team into a premiership team... His ability to break from the clearance is just so damn important.

Agreed. Not just from the clearance either, just the spread he can create with his run when we are already in possession of the ball. He can get himself into dangerous spots with his acceleration, receive then ball and then accelerate away again.



[edit: just looked up his stats -- he's averaging 17.9 over his career but averaged 22.0 in 2009 which was a dramatic increase over previous years, so he's getting up there, and would suggest that 2009 WAS his 'break out' year despite popular perception.]

Yep, had his career best year last year by a long stretch, not that too many AFL followers seemed to notice (although quite a few here did). He'll continue to improve again this year I would think, and getting up to that 25 mark is quite possible.

[Mofra]

Point in reference in my opinion are Boyd & Cross. These guys consistently get 25+ touches per week, but the quality and effectiveness of these possessions can be poles apart. Very good players in their own right, but sometimes they just don't hurt you with the ball. In my opinion Crossy's 39 possesion game in the 08 QF was almost the worst 39 possession game of all time as his touches had no influence on the game.
Fair point on Cross, not sure I agree on Boyd as of last year. He is creeping up to the goal per game mark and his kicking has improved dramatically over the past two seasons. I don't think a player can win a B&F at the 3rd placed club on the ladder if their disposal is sub-par.

[EasternWest]

Griffin is paying $101.00 on Betchoice for the Brownlow. I have wacked a twenty on him. On form its looking like a great bet. I also have Cooney at $51.00.

Griffin will never win a Brownlow. Ryan Griffen might, but Griffin is no chance.

[Doggy]

Yeah. Good on ya!!

[Dazza]

Our fans (all fans) have become brainwashed by stats and it's due to fantasy footy.

More stats, means more points, which means the better player you are ?? I just don't buy it.


I don't follow supercoach/dreamteam at all I was just raising a point that when either of Gia, Griff or Eagleton get high amounts of the ball we generally win. If either of the 3 were to have a blinder of a season it would help us greatly with our chances this year. All 3 are pretty damaging with their disposls and all generally kick more than they handball.

[Sedat]

Our fans (all fans) have become brainwashed by stats and it's due to fantasy footy.

More stats, means more points, which means the better player you are ?? I just don't buy it.
Could not agree more. That is why the likes of Joel Bowden and his cheapies-off-half-back heir apparent, Brett Deledio, have been amoungst the most expensive player types in recent DT and SC seasons.

For pure influence and impact on a contest, give me the Peter Matera 18 possessions, 5 goals and Norm Smith medal type games from the 1992 GF, or Hodge completely controlling the match with his 20 possessions in the 2008 QF, any day of the week.

[Greystache]

[edit: just looked up his stats -- he's averaging 17.9 over his career but averaged 22.0 in 2009 which was a dramatic increase over previous years, so he's getting up there, and would suggest that 2009 WAS his 'break out' year despite popular perception.]


Yep, had his career best year last year by a long stretch, not that too many AFL followers seemed to notice (although quite a few here did). He'll continue to improve again this year I would think, and getting up to that 25 mark is quite possible.

Yet the club didn't feel his performances warranted a finish in the top 10 of the B&F yet again, do our supporters over rate Griffen's contribution or does the club and other AFL followers under rate him?

[Go_Dogs]

Yet the club didn't feel his performances warranted a finish in the top 10 of the B&F yet again, do our supporters over rate Griffen's contribution or does the club and other AFL followers under rate him?

Just because he had a career best year, doesn't always guarantee a Top 10 B&F finish, especially when the club was a kick away from the big one.

I don't think the club underrates his contribution, but perhaps some AFL supporters do. (I know a few Crows supporters who were only too happy to bag him and suggest he wouldn't even make their side late last year - the same ones who'll probably be singing the 'come home Griff' anthem when FA starts up mind you!).

At a guess, Griff would have finished just outside the Top 10, and this just says to me, the side had a good year more so than Griff's contribution wasn't great. The fact that most believe he's capable of more may have also contributed.

FWIW, Griff did finish in the Top 10 in 2008 (I'm 99% sure it was 9th) and he clearly had a better year in 2009 for mine. Make of that what you will.

[Greystache]

Just because he had a career best year, doesn't always guarantee a Top 10 B&F finish, especially when the club was a kick away from the big one.


That's the pint I was getting at. He's labelled by some of our supporters as elite, superstar, under rated by AFL followers, and a potential Browlow winner, yet in what some say is his break out year he still doesn't make our clubs top 10. That indicates to me he's rated about the right level by all other than some of our own supporters.

[Keepa Movin' Griff]

Come on guy's he is clearly one of our best! Just so dynamic, no-one in our team has the ability to break through a pack like he does! I can see how his go at all costs can get us in strife at times, and you can find yourself cursing him, but all in all i absolutely love him, and i think his bravery & cunning is starting to rub off on our younger players, think Harbrow & (Everitt v Collingwood).

[Go_Dogs]

That's the pint I was getting at. He's labelled by some of our supporters as elite, superstar, under rated by AFL followers, and a potential Browlow winner, yet in what some say is his break out year he still doesn't make our clubs top 10. That indicates to me he's rated about the right level by all other than some of our own supporters.

But as I alluded to above, finished in the Top 10 in 2008 when we also played off in a Prelim, and surely you wouldn't be suggesting his 2008 was better to his 2009?

I think a lot of our supporters like Griff and rate him highly because he is a very damaging player who is always threatening to break a game open. We don't have many other players that can do that. His finals form also indicates he's better than your average footballer. Hopefully we have a better indication by the years end as to just how good he may end up.

[LostDoggy]

I think he has the ability to be elite but the reason why he does not have great results in our B and F is because it rewards consistency, something which he lacks.

Very rare he plays 4 good quarters or 5 or 6 good games in a row

Something he needs to work on

[LostDoggy]

I think he has the ability to be elite but the reason why he does not have great results in our B and F is because it rewards consistency, something which he lacks.

Very rare he plays 4 good quarters or 5 or 6 good games in a row

Something he needs to work on

True. Even in the games he's turned it on, I don't recall it being for 4 quarters?

[stefoid]

The more damaging he gets, the more he will get tagged, which means he has to respond to that with workrate and defensive efforts - areas he worked on last year.

Really, we dont need him to star, we just need him to be effective when tagged, like cooney is - they cant tag everyone - higgins and co run riot

[Topdog]

That's the pint I was getting at. He's labelled by some of our supporters as elite, superstar, under rated by AFL followers, and a potential Browlow winner, yet in what some say is his break out year he still doesn't make our clubs top 10. That indicates to me he's rated about the right level by all other than some of our own supporters.

Everyone was saying he was over rated towards the end of last year and then after the finals series (in which he would have won a finals B&F) they were saying he has the potential to be a Brownlow winner. He has never been consistent with the Dogs and that is why he doesn't poll well in our B&F.

They are very few fans who actually watch other teams games nowadays, most people make up their mind from highlights and stats so it is pretty pointless listening to the majority.

[Twodogs]

They are very few fans who actually watch other teams games nowadays, most people make up their mind from highlights and stats so it is pretty pointless listening to the majority.



That's a really good point.

[Topdog]

That's a really good point.

I should point out I am occasionally guilty of doing it too. I was talking about Freo last year to a friend before calling myself a tosser as I hadn't seen them in 5-6 weeks.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Just because he had a career best year, doesn't always guarantee a Top 10 B&F finish, especially when the club was a kick away from the big one.

I don't think the club underrates his contribution, but perhaps some AFL supporters do. (I know a few Crows supporters who were only too happy to bag him and suggest he wouldn't even make their side late last year - the same ones who'll probably be singing the 'come home Griff' anthem when FA starts up mind you!).

At a guess, Griff would have finished just outside the Top 10, and this just says to me, the side had a good year more so than Griff's contribution wasn't great. The fact that most believe he's capable of more may have also contributed.

FWIW, Griff did finish in the Top 10 in 2008 (I'm 99% sure it was 9th) and he clearly had a better year in 2009 for mine. Make of that what you will.

Given the strength of our midfield, Boyd, Cooney, Cross, Higgins, Picken and possibly Moles would love to see Griff tried at Centre Half Back. His straight ahead style would make him a great attacking defender in a position where we have been deficient in for a long time

[Mofra]

Given the strength of our midfield, Boyd, Cooney, Cross, Higgins, Picken and possibly Moles would love to see Griff tried at Centre Half Back. His straight ahead style would make him a great attacking defender in a position where we have been deficient in for a long time
His opponent would drag him back to the goalsquare & murder him overhead. Griff is a midfielder, certainly not KPP material.

[lemmon]

Given the strength of our midfield, Boyd, Cooney, Cross, Higgins, Picken and possibly Moles would love to see Griff tried at Centre Half Back. His straight ahead style would make him a great attacking defender in a position where we have been deficient in for a long time

Same concept as moving him back to a hbf where he excelled early on in his career. Maybe a move back there is where he fits in most.

[Mofra]

Same concept as moving him back to a hbf where he excelled early on in his career. Maybe a move back there is where he fits in most.
HBF is a little different to manning up against the monsters at CHB.

Given he is a genuine line-breaker I want him in the action a bit more - people have mentioned his inconsistency but one good quarter where he creates a coupel of inside 50s from disputed contests, in the modern era of football where inside 50s are dropping and quality of delivery is king, can be the difference between a win and a loss in the modern game.

[Go_Dogs]

Thought this might make for an interesting 'bump'.

As is probably beyond obvious to all those who have posted with on this site over the years, I love Griff. Has again stepped it up so far this year. His work rate is very good, and he wills himself to win the ball and receive it in space too. Occasionally his kicking can let him down still, but it's improved on a whole, and his goal kicking has become a real feature.

He's officially our most important player IMO, hope he keeps up the great work.

[Remi Moses]

He was our best by a country mile Sunday.
Needs help in the midfield urgently!