Our Tackling - Still a Concern

[Mofra]

Last year, we were 16th in tackles overall and 16th for tackles inside our forward 50.

I know it was meant to be a focus in the off-season, but looking at last Sunday's game we had a number of players you would have to say were below par in this area:

- Grant, Djerkurra & Hall had 0 tackles between them (nowhere near acceptable)
- Jones, Hill, Higgins & Sherman had only one each (Jones chases hard and Sherman came on late as mitigating circumstances, but I expect better)
- Libba, Wood, Williams, Griffen & Murphy only had 2 each - surprising for backmen given how often the ball was in our backline.
- Gia and Markovic had 3 each - I would hope 4 is the minimum viewed as a pass mark, regardless of position on the ground.

Griffen's figure is surprising as he was 5th on our tackles list last year (behind Cross, Boyd, Picken & Gia), our forward group overall were disappointing again in this aspect given the off season focus.

Ward & Boyd at least set the standard in this area last weekend, with 7 & 6 respectively, but compared to Collingwood we had 23 less tackles in round 1.


Is this going to be our biggest area of concern this year, and is there anything we can do to turn this around?

[Desipura]

Last year, we were 16th in tackles overall and 16th for tackles inside our forward 50.

I know it was meant to be a focus in the off-season, but looking at last Sunday's game we had a number of players you would have to say were below par in this area:

- Grant, Djerkurra & Hall had 0 tackles between them (nowhere near acceptable)
- Jones, Hill, Higgins & Sherman had only one each (Jones chases hard and Sherman came on late as mitigating circumstances, but I expect better)
- Libba, Wood, Williams, Griffen & Murphy only had 2 each - surprising for backmen given how often the ball was in our backline.
- Gia and Markovic had 3 each - I would hope 4 is the minimum viewed as a pass mark, regardless of position on the ground.

Griffen's figure is surprising as he was 5th on our tackles list last year (behind Cross, Boyd, Picken & Gia), our forward group overall were disappointing again in this aspect given the off season focus.

Ward & Boyd at least set the standard in this area last weekend, with 7 & 6 respectively, but compared to Collingwood we had 23 less tackles in round 1.


Is this going to be our biggest area of concern this year, and is there anything we can do to turn this around?
2 areas of concern regarding tackling, you have to make them stick and you have to be quick enough to lay one if your opponent is about to run away with the ball.

I believe these areas can be addressed.

[SlimPickens]

Is this going to be our biggest area of concern this year, and is there anything we can do to turn this around?

It is a major concern.

The solution is simple to me however, if a player refuses to apply the pressure and tackling that the coaches require, DROP THEM.

[Ozza]

I remember seeing the quarter time figures and thinking we were on track for a good tackling game - but this obviously feel away as the game wore on.

Bit more concentration and effort for the full 120 minutes would be nice!

[Desipura]

I remember seeing the quarter time figures and thinking we were on track for a good tackling game - but this obviously feel away as the game wore on.

Bit more concentration and effort for the full 120 minutes would be nice!
Yes it was something like 21 to 17 and I thought the same thing

[Greystache]

Still a major concern.

It seems to me that for the senior players tackling is "a nice to have" rather than a non-negotiable.

[stefoid]

Hall is 76 years old and the target of 3/4 of our forward 50 entries. He gets a let off on tackling.

The question is what are the other forwards doing when he is competing for the ball and why arent our midfielders looking for other options than kicking it to hall all the time?

I havent been paying attention, but it might be something like our other forwards are trying offer options for the midfielders, who ignore them and kick to barry, who competes against a couple of opponents resulting in those opponents taking the ball away under no pressure because our other forwards are still miles away.

Its all very well to say 'player X applies no forward pressure', but at the end of the day, the forwards first priority is to offer goalkicking options, not mind their man, and you cant simultaneously get away from your opponent and provide a lead AND be minding that opponent at the same time.

If I was a bulldog forward, I d be thinking, stuff it, they want I50 tackles? Ill stop providing options for the midfield and just hang around halls ankles all day because thats where the ball is going 3/4 of the time,and that way Ill have plenty of opportunities to lay tackles on opposition defenders. stuff tying to kick goals!

basically our midfield is a bunch of players that go to water under pressure and either turn it over or bang it long to hall all day. their only saving grace is they are a bunch of hard arses who can get the pill more often from clearances than the opposition -- but against essendon, even that edge was lost, and thats when we really struggle to score at all.

I mean, if you were an opposition coach, what would your plan be? place as much pressure as humanly possible on our midfield and double team hall. game over.

geez, that didnt start out as a rant, but it sure ended as one.

[Ozza]

Probably important to note that its not just tackling - but also perceived pressure that was way down (where you may not affect the tackle - but you still pressure the kick through a chase or positioning).

Impossible to measure - but anyone watching the game could clearly see that Essendon players weren't under the same pressure as ours when in possession.

[Desipura]

Probably important to note that its not just tackling - but also perceived pressure that was way down (where you may not affect the tackle - but you still pressure the kick through a chase or positioning).

Impossible to measure - but anyone watching the game could clearly see that Essendon players weren't under the same pressure as ours when in possession.
this^^^ allows the kicker to kick with little pressure or creates a loose man moving forward resulting in easy goals.

[G-Mo77]

2 areas of concern regarding tackling, you have to make them stick and you have to be quick enough to lay one if your opponent is about to run away with the ball.

I believe these areas can be addressed.

But can they? This has been a problem in stages through out the last 3 years. Tackling and pressure seems to come and go various times during the season. There are times when they look fantastic, tackle hard and relentless pressure but then it seems to slip away and we get a result like we did on Sunday. To me it seems like a mental thing. I don't know how it can be rectified to be honest. I'm starting to lose hope that it can. :(

[Mofra]

Interesting take on the issue Stefoid, appreciate the view however I'm not sure that completely bears out based on what I saw on Sunday. Liam Jones was to be the target of as much (if not more) ball due to him playing higher up the ground. Grant was our other lead up target.

Djerkurra had one nice crumbing goal, but realistically should be in a position to feed of Bazza's crumbs as much as possible. That means he needs to apply defensive pressure - even in the Fev days, the Betts types could lay a few tackles.

1 tackle between the four of them.


Milne was almost finished under GT for an inability to apply sufficient defensive pressure when Riewoldt & Gehrif were getting 90% of F50 entries.
His record stands (and it hurts to say it) as one of the best small forwards of the modern era, yet he managed to turn his game around and is quite the chaser these days.

I don't see structure as a sole or even a major contributer to our lack of pressure in the F50, and on a team basis players over the whole ground are below par on this aspect.

[DOG GOD]

To me, it seems the players dont have the aplication to want to tackle, and when they do they are half assed attempts that get brushed aside. Boyd, ward and Cross are normally strong in this area coz they are in the centre of attention, wheras the likes of Grant, Hill etc just dont have the body to lay strong tackles, especially against a moving target.

Bodies need to be built stronger and there needs to me a more mental approach that if you dont have to ball, you aim to tackle and hurt the guy who does. Simple. If rules from the MC cant be followed then i agree with Slim Pickens. Drop the player until they learn what needs to be done in a team game.

[stefoid]

From pro-stats, our I50 targets were

Hall 12
Grant 3
guido 2
Hill 2
Higgins 2

So yeah, not 3/4, more like 1/2, but still.

So the question remains, for those entries that were directed al Hall, what are the other forwards supposed to be doing? If you are a crumber, then yeah, you want to be near hall and ready to tackle like a loony if the crumb doesnt fall to you, but the last thing hall needs is the other forwards dragging their opponents to him.

The way to kill defences is to split them up and isolate them and the way to do that is to offer multiple credible threats and to vary the way the ball comes into the f50 -- often short to a multiple leads and occasionally, high to a long target.

[Mantis]

We often play a 5 man forward-line which allows us to play an extra mid or defender, but often means our forwards are out numbered. Besides Grant we have a slow forwardline so when there is no help from the mids and our forwards are out-numbered what chance do they have of applying sufficient pressure?

[Greystache]

Milne was almost finished under GT for an inability to apply sufficient defensive pressure when Riewoldt & Gehrif were getting 90% of F50 entries.
His record stands (and it hurts to say it) as one of the best small forwards of the modern era, yet he managed to turn his game around and is quite the chaser these days.

I don't see structure as a sole or even a major contributer to our lack of pressure in the F50, and on a team basis players over the whole ground are below par on this aspect.

Using the St Kilda example, when Ross Lyon took over in 2008 he made it a focus to make them the most defensively strong team across the field in the league. Some players bought into it and others didn't, what did he do? He made an example of the two most senior players who would do their part in Del Santo and Milne and dropped them to the VFL.

Last year Collingwood viewed defensive pressure as the area they could gain a break on the rest of the league, what did they do? They played young kids and told them their place in the side hinged on them applying defensive pressure. Senior one way players like O'Bree, Medhurst, and Lockyer were relegated to the VFL. Medhurst was given a lifeline at the end of the season, wouldn't do as instructed, and was promptly omitted again.

I can't see our MC ever taking such strong steps to change our style of play, and if you're going to make a cultural on field change then just talking about it in meetings and not holding the automatic selections accountable is a redundant exercise.

[Mofra]

So the question remains, for those entries that were directed al Hall, what are the other forwards supposed to be doing? If you are a crumber, then yeah, you want to be near hall and ready to tackle like a loony if the crumb doesnt fall to you, but the last thing hall needs is the other forwards dragging their opponents to him.

The way to kill defences is to split them up and isolate them and the way to do that is to offer multiple credible threats and to vary the way the ball comes into the f50 -- often short to a multiple leads and occasionally, high to a long target.
I understand the sentiment stefoid, but surely we are not the only side in the competition that splits a defence by leading to different spots?

We were 16th in this area last year, the stats tell us our forwards were poor in this area last week - from what I've seen and the figures we have available, this is an area of concern for us.

Richmond are as if not more reliant on Jack Riewoldt than we are inside 50 so a comparison with Hall is reasonable as an example.

Jack he had 4 tackles in round 1 which is more than any of our forwards. Hall had 0.
Jack had 68 tackles last year compared to Barry who had 28.

To put that in perspective, he would have been 6th last year on our tackle count. For forwards in 2010, Gia had 94 (and how many of those were on a rotation in the mdifield?) and our next best forward was Hahn on 54. These are (arguably) our two slowest forwards so it's hard to justify a pace & structure based argument on our lack of tackling.

Everything I've seen at games and on the stats sheet points to a lack of intent, and if we don't improve in this area I think we will be also-rans.

BTW didn't Aker mention in 2009 he was our tackling coach? If so, do we have a full or part time tackling coach and if so who is it?

[Mofra]

I can't see our MC ever taking such strong steps to change our style of play, and if you're going to make a cultural on field change then just talking about it in meetings and not holding the automatic selections accountable is a redundant exercise.
Fair point - I would hope that nobody walks off the field two weeks in a row with zero tackles and expects a game the following week.

[mjp]

Is this going to be our biggest area of concern this year, and is there anything we can do to turn this around?

Lay some tackles???

I know this sounds completely obvious, but unless the playing group value this it is simply not going to happen.

[bornadog]

I have said this before tackling is an overrated stat so we shouldn't read too much into it.

We had 64 tackles to Essendons 56. Effective tackling was 47 to 38 a percentage of 73.4 to Essendon 67.9%

OK the next poster is going to say, but it depends where you lay the tackles.

It just goes to show if you have higher disposals than the opposition then generally you tackle less. Last year we were number one for possessions and number 16 for tackles.

We need an extra three tackles per quarter to be in the top few in tackles, and they must be in the forward line.

[Maddog37]

Get the storm to train with the boys. That will show them how to tackle with intent. The thing is, once you land a few crunching tackles the opposition become less inclined to take you on hence their run is stifled.

[Mofra]

I know this sounds completely obvious, but unless the playing group value this it is simply not going to happen.
You'd possibly know better than anyone - do clubs sit down at the start of the year and highlight a few KPIs they want to focus on, or is it more about training towards having a style of play or gameplan become automatic?

[anfo27]

Using the St Kilda example, when Ross Lyon took over in 2008 he made it a focus to make them the most defensively strong team across the field in the league. Some players bought into it and others didn't, what did he do? He made an example of the two most senior players who would do their part in Del Santo and Milne and dropped them to the VFL.

Last year Collingwood viewed defensive pressure as the area they could gain a break on the rest of the league, what did they do? They played young kids and told them their place in the side hinged on them applying defensive pressure. Senior one way players like O'Bree, Medhurst, and Lockyer were relegated to the VFL. Medhurst was given a lifeline at the end of the season, wouldn't do as instructed, and was promptly omitted again.

I can't see our MC ever taking such strong steps to change our style of play, and if you're going to make a cultural on field change then just talking about it in meetings and not holding the automatic selections accountable is a redundant exercise.

great post Greystache agree 100%

[anfo27]

I have said this before tackling is an overrated stat so we shouldn't read too much into it.We had 64 tackles to Essendons 56. Effective tackling was 47 to 38 a percentage of 73.4 to Essendon 67.9%

OK the next poster is going to say, but it depends where you lay the tackles.

It just goes to show if you have higher disposals than the opposition then generally you tackle less. Last year we were number one for possessions and number 16 for tackles.

We need an extra three tackles per quarter to be in the top few in tackles, and they must be in the forward line.

That sounds like something Rocket would say to mask the fact we are the worse team without the ball.

[Before I Die]

Ward & Boyd at least set the standard in this area last weekend, with 7 & 6 respectively, but compared to Collingwood we had 23 less tackles in round 1.

I wonder how many of these occur at centre bounces and boundary throw ins when the ball is tapped down at the feet of the ruckmen and whoever grabs the ball is jumped on. I don't have any strong memories of Boyd chasing anyone down.

[bornadog]

That sounds like something Rocket would say to mask the fact we are the worse team without the ball.

Saints laid 95 tackles and Geelong 59, Geelong had 432 disposals and Saints 343.............. who won:cool:

Get my point.

[stefoid]

I willing to give hall a pass for tackles, he is 34 , Jack is 22. Last thing I want to see is hall's career over because he blew a hammy chasing someone out of defence.

We had way bigger probs against the dons than forward pressure - our midfield fell to pieces under their pressure and the quality of our clearances was far lower than theirs.

For the record, we had 2 F50 tackles and they had 6. How many forward tackles do you have to lay to correct a 75 to 39 F50 entry imbalance? I mean, the balls got to be in your forward area before you can lay a tackle there, right?

[Mofra]

I willing to give hall a pass for tackles, he is 34 , Jack is 22. Last thing I want to see is hall's career over because he blew a hammy chasing someone out of defence.
If forward pressure is an issue and we are giving some of our players an "out" due to age, the opposition will continually rebound through the weakest link.
Hall isn't slow, especially for his size. If you cross the line to play, you should be ready to play.


We had way bigger probs against the dons than forward pressure - our midfield fell to pieces under their pressure and the quality of our clearances was far lower than theirs.

For the record, we had 2 F50 tackles and they had 6. How many forward tackles do you have to lay to correct a 75 to 39 F50 entry imbalance? I mean, the balls got to be in your forward area before you can lay a tackle there, right?
True, but this is an issue that was obvious for all of last year, not just in round 1 this year.
The players and coaching staff also highlighted this as a problem over the pre-season.

FWIW The Gameplan last night stated we had 1 tackle in our forward 50. If we are not getting the F50 entries we would like, we have to do everything in our power to make them count.
I am not willing to give our round 1 efforts a pass mark and tackling is part of this.

[The Pie Man]

BT pointed out on AFL Teams last night we had one tackle inside our forward 50 for the game on Sunday.

Sounds horendous - though after quarter time, the ball wasn't down there a hell of a lot...bit difficult to do something without the opportunity.

EDIT - Mofra pointed that out above, only just noticed (different show, same point)

[stefoid]

If forward pressure is an issue and we are giving some of our players an "out" due to age, the opposition will continually rebound through the weakest link.
Hall isn't slow, especially for his size. If you cross the line to play, you should be ready to play.


True, but this is an issue that was obvious for all of last year, not just in round 1 this year.
The players and coaching staff also highlighted this as a problem over the pre-season.

FWIW The Gameplan last night stated we had 1 tackle in our forward 50. If we are not getting the F50 entries we would like, we have to do everything in our power to make them count.
I am not willing to give our round 1 efforts a pass mark and tackling is part of this.

Our midfield going to water under pressure has been evident for ages -- its what separates us from the real contenders. Under real pressure from the opposition, we cant score because we dont get enough F50 entries and the ones we do get are of low quality.

Credit for Essendon for being able to generate that sort of pressure. We obviously werent expecting them to.

Being able to generate that sort of pressure ourselves is only part of the problem, and its the easiest part of the problem to solve. What do you do about the fact that half of your starting midfielers, namely Boyd, Griffen and Higgins are complete turnover merchants under pressure?

[anfo27]

Saints laid 95 tackles and Geelong 59, Geelong had 432 disposals and Saints 343.............. who won:cool:

Get my point.

no i don't because neither of those sides are us and neither of those sides are worse than us in this part of the game. Its very easy to get stats from anywhere to back up your argument but we can't hide from the fact we are the worse team without the ball.

[Mofra]

Being able to generate that sort of pressure ourselves is only part of the problem, and its the easiest part of the problem to solve. What do you do about the fact that half of your starting midfielers, namely Boyd, Griffen and Higgins are complete turnover merchants under pressure?
The major issue there is a skills issue which is much harder to fix, and any deficiancies there are going to be very difficult to assuage within the space of 7 days.

[stefoid]

We can only work with teh cattle we have got.

Nearly every criticism of Guido includes he 'wont get his hands dirty' yada yada, but we have a truck load of dirty handed inside midfielders, we need guys at the outside of the stoppage who can receive the ball and use it properly.

so give him more midfield time.

Libba is purely an inside midfielder - first hands type of player like boyd. Swap him for Wallis who is more of a 2nd hands clearance player.

[Mofra]

Nearly every criticism of Guido includes he 'wont get his hands dirty' yada yada, but we have a truck load of dirty handed inside midfielders, we need guys at the outside of the stoppage who can receive the ball and use it properly.

so give him more midfield time.

Libba is purely an inside midfielder - first hands type of player like boyd. Swap him for Wallis who is more of a 2nd hands clearance player.
The criticism of Gia in that regard isn't borne out by facts - 5th on our tackles ladder last year. Much bigger culprits in that regard.

Libba's kicking is regarded as better tha Wallis' too - did very well at draft camp and the noise from WO during the pre-season what that he gets more penetration.
Will be great to watch the contrast between the two side by side. Plenty suggest that with the pace of AFL Wallis is more suited to an inside role anyway, although plenty of players combine the two.

[BulldogBelle]

Hall is 76 years old and the target of 3/4 of our forward 50 entries. He gets a let off on tackling.The question is what are the other forwards doing when he is competing for the ball and why arent our midfielders looking for other options than kicking it to hall all the time?

I havent been paying attention, but it might be something like our other forwards are trying offer options for the midfielders, who ignore them and kick to barry, who competes against a couple of opponents resulting in those opponents taking the ball away under no pressure because our other forwards are still miles away.

Its all very well to say 'player X applies no forward pressure', but at the end of the day, the forwards first priority is to offer goalkicking options, not mind their man, and you cant simultaneously get away from your opponent and provide a lead AND be minding that opponent at the same time.

If I was a bulldog forward, I d be thinking, stuff it, they want I50 tackles? Ill stop providing options for the midfield and just hang around halls ankles all day because thats where the ball is going 3/4 of the time,and that way Ill have plenty of opportunities to lay tackles on opposition defenders. stuff tying to kick goals!

basically our midfield is a bunch of players that go to water under pressure and either turn it over or bang it long to hall all day. their only saving grace is they are a bunch of hard arses who can get the pill more often from clearances than the opposition -- but against essendon, even that edge was lost, and thats when we really struggle to score at all.

I mean, if you were an opposition coach, what would your plan be? place as much pressure as humanly possible on our midfield and double team hall. game over.

geez, that didnt start out as a rant, but it sure ended as one.


Hall may be 76 years old, but when he does tackle an opponent, he slams them and makes a statement. He makes them earn every disposal, and think twice about playing on & taking risks, which helps to stop a teams run and decreases their confidence. They start feeling hunted.

All of our players need to make a statement with their tackling.

Maybe Libba Senior should be invited in to give some of the lads a pep up.