Round #19 Match Committee

[GVGjr]

If you were on the Match Committee who would the likely ins and outs for the round 19 home game against the West Coast Eagles next Saturday?

[GVGjr]

Early thoughts?

[LostDoggy]

Out - Gilbee, Addison, Hooper, Grant

In - Ves, Murphy, Tutt, Schofield/Howard

DJ was OK and deserves another chance

[Happy Days]

Addison, Gilbee, Grant and Hudson out.

Ins depending on Willi form, but at this stage, Howard, Vez, Schofield and Minson in.

[w3design]

I think Hudson must be rested. He was really poor. Addison failed to grab his chance.

I'm in two minds about dropping Grant. He deserves it, but I'm mindful that we are losing Barry next year and, like it or not, Grant and jones are our forward line next year. The more games they get, the better, even if undeserved. Winning games isn't the priority right now, building our future is.

[Remi Moses]

I'd like to see Roughead or Cordy come in for Hudson. Time for Huddo to hang em' up
Gilbee's cooked, Addison isn't up to it , Grant out . In Schofield or Tutt Vezspremi for Grant Murphy ( fit?) Roughy or Cordy in! This is probably an irrational post but I'm to pissed of to have any rational thoughts

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Addison, Gilbee, Grant and Hudson out.

Ins depending on Willi form, but at this stage, Howard, Vez, Schofield and Minson in.

This.

It's ridiculous that we still haven't played Vez, yet we're content with giving games to DJ and Grant.

[DOG GOD]

Vez has GOT to come in....FFS give him a chance MC...others have had their fair share of opportunities.

[Pickenitup]

In Vez Sherman Roughead Howard Murphy
Out Addison Grant Gilbee Cooney(INJ Just doesnt look fit) Hooper

[azabob]

In Vez Sherman Roughead Howard Murphy
Out Addison Grant Gilbee Cooney(INJ Just doesnt look fit) Hooper

Sherman has missed one with injury and isn't playing this weekend.

[Mantis]

We have lots of players in today's team who just aren't up to it.

Tough times are ahead.

[GVGjr]

Providing Howard has a decent run tomorrow I would think he would come into calculations for the balance of the season.
I'm not sure on Vezspremi but Roughead and Minson would be close to a recall as well.

Do we have another look at Mulligan or do we go with Barlow?

Lots of questions but not many definitive answers.

[Pickenitup]

Sherman is being rested this week just a bit sore and with Willi playing on a Sunday a short break
isnt ideal.

[Mantis]

Do we have another look at Mulligan or do we go with Barlow?


I can't see how these 2 are competing for a spot in the team... Please tell me more?

[GVGjr]

I can't see how these 2 are competing for a spot in the team... Please tell me more?

Poorly worded on my behalf.
I suppose I was looking more at a rookie listed player in Barlow to see what he can offer and of course if it's worth having another look at Mulligan which might help us with our list management decisions.

[bornadog]

Why didn't Schofield play today?

[AndrewP6]

Why didn't Schofield play today?

Late withdrawal due to man-flu.

[bornadog]

Late withdrawal due to man-flu.

You mean match ups.:p

Should have been in instead of Addison.

[AndrewP6]

You mean match ups.:p

Should have been in instead of Addison.

Club indicated flu. Surely they wouldn't lie?? ;)

[Mantis]

You mean match ups.:p

Should have been in instead of Addison.

Do you know something we don't?

[1eyedog]

OUTS: Grant, Gilbee, Addison, Cooney (for the year), Griffen (rested), Hudson (for the year).

INS: Minson, Tutt, Howard, Schofield, Barlow, Murphy

[Mantis]

I just can't have Hooper in our team.. He just isn't up to it.

[Desipura]

I just can't have Hooper in our team.. He just isn't up to it.

Some people are only starting to realize this now

[Go_Dogs]

Addison was ordinary, but I think we need to give him another opportunity or 2. From all reports his VFL form has improved, it still remains to be seen if he can cut it at AFL level but we've got a few weeks to evaluate his future now.

Out: Cooney, Griffen, Hudson, Gilbee, Grant

In: Murphy, Sherman, Minson, Howard, Tutt.

Higgins playing forward midfield.

Also would be tempted perhaps swapping Grant for Roughead but realistically I doubt we'll make more than 4 changes anyway.


Edit:

Also forgot about Cross as perhaps another forced out. If so, Grant, Gilbee, Hooper etc etc might get reprieves.

[1eyedog]

I just can't have Hooper in our team.. He just isn't up to it.

What have we to lose now playing guys who have played <20 games? Just play him for the rest of the year and then make a decision.

[aker39]

I couldn't care less who comes in, but Grant cannot play again this year.

He gives us nothing.

[bornadog]

I just can't have Hooper in our team.. He just isn't up to it.


Some people are only starting to realize this now

Can't agree at this stage with only 5 games to his name and has kicked goals every game.

Faded in 2nd half today but, to be fair to all the forward line including Grant, Dahlhaus, Hall etc the ball hardly found its way there.

[Mantis]

Can't agree at this stage with only 5 games to his name and has kicked goals every game.

Faded in 2nd half today but, to be fair to all the forward line including Grant, Dahlhaus, Hall etc the ball hardly found its way there.

Do we justify his selection on this basis?

He is slow, can't give repeat efforts and can't win a contest... You tell me what he has going for himself?

[ReLoad]

Do we justify his selection on this basis?

He is slow, can't give repeat efforts and can't win a contest... You tell me what he has going for himself?

Tenacity, enthusiasm, pressure both implied and real for starters.

I think its too early to make a final call in either direction on Hooper, at this stage IMHO the jury is out.

However in saying that i think its fair to say that others who we have seen a heck of a lot more from have had thier cards marked by now, at least one would hope so.

[Greystache]

Do we justify his selection on this basis?

He is slow, can't give repeat efforts and can't win a contest... You tell me what he has going for himself?

Makes you wonder what we saw to decide he was worth promoting last year.

[GVGjr]

I just can't have Hooper in our team.. He just isn't up to it.

Same here. He might keep the scoreboard ticking over but right at this moment he isn't up to the standard of an AFL footballer.
I think his promotion to the senior list wasn't a good move by us.

[Rocco Jones]

I really want to believe in Hooper but I must say I am well and truly in the he won't make it camp. He gets his opportunist goal or two a game but does little else. His pressure is OK but he really goes out of games for massive amounts of time and is terrible in a contest.

What to do with our team selection. We have tried a lot of guys and the cupboard really looks bare. I would love to be able to confidentally make 6-7 changes but the fact is we are well and truly at the stage that our last 6 or so picked are on a 'least worst' basis.

Who 'has' to go...

Hudson- looks done to me. Has worked his guts out but the demands the modern game + sub put on the 1st ruck are too much for him. He is being compeitive but how long does he have left? I think Will really deserves a decent crack at the number 1 role.

Cooney- No point playing him when his knee isn't right. You just cannot carry a guy because he is a star in the modern game.

Grant- He has the tools to be a great forward pressure applier but he just doesn't seem to want to. As little as I rate Hoops, I would drop Grant before him.

Addison- I wanted him in for a bit as a defensive HF but even though he had to play down back, I am off his bandwagon. He just looks a world away from AFL level.

Gilbee- he is cooked. What is the point in playing him? I get playing senior types who help out kids physically and all that but Lindsay simply isn't that type.

So that makes Hudson, Cooney, Grant, Addison and Gilbee as our outs. DJ being in our best 22 says it all. Ouch. Who to bring in?

Minson, Veszpremi, Bobby, Barlow (if he has confidence in finger), Howard/Tutt/Schofield/Stack (1 or 2 depending on Barlow)

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I couldn't care less who comes in, but Grant cannot play again this year.

He gives us nothing.

Agreed.

His effort and body language is pathetic.

Clearly been the most disappointing player this season, Lake aside.

[the banker]

From a list that at the start of the year looked to have depth with new young players replacing aged stars we now look to have poor prospects. There are about 6 players worthy of being dropped this but the replacements look no better.

Agree that we have to respectfully ease Hudson and Gilbee out of the team. Cross for his shortcomings still has energy and attitude, but Wallis/Tutt will probably have to be played ahead of him next year. With Hall retiring, star quality is missing. Hopefully Cooney's knee is not chronic. And without any thorough clarification on Lakes issues - are they simply physical (I dont think most of us believe that), Murph another year older, our leadership and inspiring list of players is very thin.

If we lose Ward (or Wood) it will be a a shattering blow.

Griff Ward Wood Dahlhaus (Libba, Wallis?) are the future spark for this team.

DJ, Addison, Stack, Hill, Hooper dont look up to it
Grant, Roughead, Vez, Wallis, Cordy have all in different ways not developed to a point where they can offer us anything this year. Roughead looked very slow around the ground in his last AFL appearance, I am not convinced about him yet.

I would keep Hooper and DJ in the side to give them every opportunity to prove us wrong.
Grant needs a spell, Cooney needs a rest, Hudson and Gilbee to make way, Cross injured?, Addison out

OUT Grant, Cooney, Hudson, Gilbee, Cross, Addison
IN Vez, Sherman, Minson, Schofield, Tutt, Murphy

[G-Mo77]

I think Hudson must be rested. He was really poor. Addison failed to grab his chance.

I'm in two minds about dropping Grant. He deserves it, but I'm mindful that we are losing Barry next year and, like it or not, Grant and jones are our forward line next year. The more games they get, the better, even if undeserved. Winning games isn't the priority right now, building our future is.

I tend to agree re: Grant. I'm really starting to doubt the future he has with us, maybe more responsibility next season will bring out the best in him? Anyway this season is done and there is not many games left, keep playing him for the rest of the year.

Sherman comes back in, Murphy as well and I guess Schofield gets another go, I'd also like to start getting our young rucks in, maybe that comes at the expense of Grant?

Its going to be a long and painful 5 weeks.

[G-Mo77]

"Cooney probably won't play next week," Eade said.

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/season2011/westernbulldogsnewsfeatures/newsarticle/tabid/4112/newsid/119258/default.aspx

[1eyedog]

Do we justify his selection on this basis?

He is slow, can't give repeat efforts and can't win a contest... You tell me what he has going for himself?

He beat both Grundy and Mattner in the goal square to score that goal don't tell me he can't win a contest or doesn't give repeated efforts. If he does that 2-3 times a game all of a sudden he's a star. There's a fine line. He is slow but no slower than Schneider and he's going to play 200 games. I think he has the ability to be a Schneider-type. It is my belief that he is smarter than you think which will offset his lack of pace.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on a number of other players who you don't think will make it. The only one I am pretty certain about is Addison.

[1eyedog]

Same here. He might keep the scoreboard ticking over but right at this moment he isn't up to the standard of an AFL footballer.
I think his promotion to the senior list wasn't a good move by us.

Of course he isn't he's only played 5 games! Sheesh. I reckon 95% of players who have played under a dozen games don't show much.

[GVGjr]

Of course he isn't he's only played 5 games! Sheesh. I reckon 95% of players who have played under a dozen games don't show much.


It's more than that though. The likes of Libertore, Dahlhaus, and Howard all look to have an upside but to me Hooper doesn't and that's why I mentioned "at this moment".

[Ghost Dog]

From a list that at the start of the year looked to have depth with new young players replacing aged stars we now look to have poor prospects. There are about 6 players worthy of being dropped this but the replacements look no better.

Agree that we have to respectfully ease Hudson and Gilbee out of the team. Cross for his shortcomings still has energy and attitude, but Wallis/Tutt will probably have to be played ahead of him next year. With Hall retiring, star quality is missing. Hopefully Cooney's knee is not chronic. And without any thorough clarification on Lakes issues - are they simply physical (I dont think most of us believe that), Murph another year older, our leadership and inspiring list of players is very thin.

If we lose Ward (or Wood) it will be a a shattering blow.

Griff Ward Wood Dahlhaus (Libba, Wallis?) are the future spark for this team.

DJ, Addison, Stack, Hill, Hooper dont look up to it
Grant, Roughead, Vez, Wallis, Cordy have all in different ways not developed to a point where they can offer us anything this year. Roughead looked very slow around the ground in his last AFL appearance, I am not convinced about him yet.

I would keep Hooper and DJ in the side to give them every opportunity to prove us wrong.
Grant needs a spell, Cooney needs a rest, Hudson and Gilbee to make way, Cross injured?, Addison out

OUT Grant, Cooney, Hudson, Gilbee, Cross, Addison
IN Vez, Sherman, Minson, Schofield, Tutt, Murphy

Correct me if wrong, but I heard it's got to be managed. Won't be getting better. correct?

[1eyedog]

It's more than that though. The likes of Libertore, Dahlhaus, and Howard all look to have an upside but to me Hooper doesn't and that's why I mentioned "at this moment".

All the players you've listed are on ballers, I reckon a crumbing forward is a different proposition, a specialist position that takes time because they are not at the coal face picking up possessions. His opportunities up forward have been limited and are dependent (to a large degree) on his team mates up the field.

[Mantis]

He beat both Grundy and Mattner in the goal square to score that goal don't tell me he can't win a contest or doesn't give repeated efforts. If he does that 2-3 times a game all of a sudden he's a star. There's a fine line. He is slow but no slower than Schneider and he's going to play 200 games. I think he has the ability to be a Schneider-type. It is my belief that he is smarter than you think which will offset his lack of pace.

One example.

There have been many others over the past 3 weeks where he hasn't been able to give us the sort of effort we require.


I would be interested to hear your thoughts on a number of other players who you don't think will make it. The only one I am pretty certain about is Addison.

Which players do you want me to discuss?

Agree that Dylan is going to struggle.

[ledge]

Dont know about doesnt give repeated efforts , everytime I have seen him go for the ball he does it 2 or 3 times, have also noticed Hoops taking on 2 taller players at once a lot, wheres the others to help out?

[bornadog]

He beat both Grundy and Mattner in the goal square to score that goal don't tell me he can't win a contest or doesn't give repeated efforts. If he does that 2-3 times a game all of a sudden he's a star. There's a fine line. He is slow but no slower than Schneider and he's going to play 200 games. I think he has the ability to be a Schneider-type. It is my belief that he is smarter than you think which will offset his lack of pace.

.

That passage shows me to me he has got something to offer. It will take him awhile to get use to the pace of AFL, but together with Dahlhaus is showing that we need smalls in the forward line to add pressure. Hooper was our best pressure little man against Carlton, even though he didn't get his hands on the ball as many times as others.

If he can kick two goals a week (40 odd a season) and apply some pressure to the opposition, then I will take that any time.

[Sedat]

I have also been very disappointed with Grant's season, but i heard something interesting on 774 yesterday listening intermittently to the match. Mark Maclure was scathing on our midfielders for continuing to spot up Baz at almost every opportunity (many times heavily outnumbered) and ignoring Jones and Grant in better position on numerous occasions throughout the day. I reckon we used Baz perfectly against Melbourne 3 weeks ago (almost as a pseudo decoy) and our forward line functioned very well that night. Are Grant's shortcomings stemming from a byproduct of being ignored by those further up the field and therefore losng confidence?

FWIW, I think last year's finals series really dented his confidence and he hasn't recovered since then. Big pre-season coming up for him. He has too many tools and too much talent not to have a successful AFL career but he will need to ramp up the hard work significantly to allow himself to impact on games more often and for longer periods. Jones is already ahead of hm in this regard despite being almost 2 years younger.

[bornadog]

I have also been very disappointed with Grant's season, but i heard something interesting on 774 yesterday listening intermittently to the match. Mark Maclure was scathing on our midfielders for continuing to spot up Baz at almost every opportunity (many times heavily outnumbered) and ignoring Jones and Grant in better position on numerous occasions throughout the day. I reckon we used Baz perfectly against Melbourne 3 weeks ago (almost as a pseudo decoy) and our forward line functioned very well that night. Are Grant's shortcomings stemming from a byproduct of being ignored by those further up the field and therefore losng confidence?

FWIW, I think last year's finals series really dented his confidence and he hasn't recovered since then. Big pre-season coming up for him. He has too many tools and too much talent not to have a successful AFL career but he will need to ramp up the hard work significantly to allow himself to impact on games more often and for longer periods. Jones is already ahead of hm in this regard despite being almost 2 years younger.

Good post Sedat, I think MacClure is spot on with his observations of Grant and Jones. The other thing in yesterdays game was we hardly had the ball in our forward 50 which made it difficult for our forwards to even have a chance.

Although Jones has had some success in the ruck, the last two weeks have been a disaster for him. I would like to see another backup ruckman come in. Roughead has just got two goals at Willi, so maybe he comes in.

[Evel]

That passage shows me to me he has got something to offer. It will take him awhile to get use to the pace of AFL, but together with Dahlhaus is showing that we need smalls in the forward line to add pressure. Hooper was our best pressure little man against Carlton, even though he didn't get his hands on the ball as many times as others.

If he can kick two goals a week (40 odd a season) and apply some pressure to the opposition, then I will take that any time.

Agree with this. I was sceptical of Hooper initially regarding what he could offer the team, but in the last few weeks think he has shown plenty as per the above post. I didn't see the Carlton game, but the commentators during the replay praised him for how hard he was working in the first half even though he didn't have a high number of possessions. I'm happy to give that type of player plenty of opportunity.

[Happy Days]

Are Grant's shortcomings stemming from a byproduct of being ignored by those further up the field and therefore losng confidence?


A guy Grant played on in the VFL a few weeks ago said that Grant sometimes would be impossible to catch due to his speed, and the rest of the time he would spend looking at his feet.

It's not a confidence thing, it's just a lack of application.

[LostDoggy]

A guy Grant played on in the VFL a few weeks ago said that Grant sometimes would be impossible to catch due to his speed, and the rest of the time he would spend looking at his feet.

It's not a confidence thing, it's just a lack of application.

That's just heartbreaking to hear :( I think if we are going to persist then we need to start him at FF for the rest of the year whilst we've still got Barry to cover if he doesn't stand up.

[1eyedog]

One example.

There have been many others over the past 3 weeks where he hasn't been able to give us the sort of effort we require.



Which players do you want me to discuss?

Agree that Dylan is going to struggle.


What about Grant and DJ what is your take on them?

[soupman]

All the players you've listed are on ballers, I reckon a crumbing forward is a different proposition, a specialist position that takes time because they are not at the coal face picking up possessions. His opportunities up forward have been limited and are dependent (to a large degree) on his team mates up the field.

True, but as a player I'm not sure he's shown he does stuff to a good enough standard.

He is tiny, but plays a little bit like a lead up forward. He can't afford to do that because he concedes about half a foot in height to the shortest of opponents. His role should be as a crumber, but despite being so low to the ground he very rarely picks the ball up cleanly. He's a fumbler, and there isn't a single succesful small crumbing forward in the AFL who fumbles. He also seems to go to ground a lo which in itself isn't a terrible thing, but it does take him out of the contest.He's pacy, but not overly quick. He doesn't seem to be able to get a break away from his opponent using his pace, and whilst admittedly there haven't been many examples of him being unable to do this, the fact that he hasn't gotten himself into spots to take advantage of the pace he has probably says something.

He also struggles to get involved, his defensive efforts seem to be alright but maybe thats just because he's only capable of getting near the ball, and not actually finding it himself. He doesn't look like he can play in too many other spots. Occasionally it gets mentioned that maybe he could play a brief rle in the midfield or make a Harbrow switch down back, but he is too small to be a defender and I'm unsure of his tank in the midfield.

His kicking whilst solid tends to be of the lollipop variety, but that isn't too big an issue. ATM his best traits are his enthusiasm, his pressure (which whilst statistically good I'm not sure he is actually that big a threat to really bother defences. More like the annoying mosquito type that you brush off than the constantly lurking threat), his desperation (his punches off the ground) and his ability to kick multiple goals. But even then I'm not sure that his goals are so much out of his good work or him just being on the end of a chain.

This is a rather negative post, but it's really how I realistically see it. Against Carlton it was odd in that he barely touched it and I wouldn't have said he had an influence, but his first 4 possesions all resulted directly or indirectly in goals. I just don't see how he really offers us more than so many other players, except that he seems desperate. For mine Djerrkurra is a more realistic long term option because I think he has more AFL type attributes, but hopefully Hooper proves me wrong.

[1eyedog]

This is a well thought out post.

I don't think height is a huge constraint to a lead up forward you just need good hands and have the ability to get some space on your opponent. Milne leads up at times as does Blair, you can't make it in the AFL purely as crumber, there just isn't enough opportunity for this type of role.

I would expect him to fumble the ball a bit given the pressure and the step up AFL is from what he experiences at Willy. He will fumble less the more he plays.

Yes there is a fair bit of hang time on his field kicking.

I think his goals have come about from being in the right place rather than purely being on the end of a chain. That said it could be argued that being on the end of chain IS the right place and that's encouraging.

His desperation is enough for me at the moment, other more senior players are getting a game and are giving us less and are showing less desperation for the contest. For someone who has been in the system a bit longer and has played more games DJ is more of a concern to me. He did some better things on the weekend but he struggles to do straight forward things. That dropped chest mark on the half forward line that went up the other end for a Swans goal is a case in point.

[westbulldog]

Out Grant, Hooper, Addison, Hudson
in Roughhead, Cordy, Schofield, Murphy

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I have also been very disappointed with Grant's season, but i heard something interesting on 774 yesterday listening intermittently to the match. Mark Maclure was scathing on our midfielders for continuing to spot up Baz at almost every opportunity (many times heavily outnumbered) and ignoring Jones and Grant in better position on numerous occasions throughout the day. I reckon we used Baz perfectly against Melbourne 3 weeks ago (almost as a pseudo decoy) and our forward line functioned very well that night. Are Grant's shortcomings stemming from a byproduct of being ignored by those further up the field and therefore losng confidence?

FWIW, I think last year's finals series really dented his confidence and he hasn't recovered since then. Big pre-season coming up for him. He has too many tools and too much talent not to have a successful AFL career but he will need to ramp up the hard work significantly to allow himself to impact on games more often and for longer periods. Jones is already ahead of hm in this regard despite being almost 2 years younger.

Grant has simply gone backwards this year and was still ineffective when Hall was out injured during the year. It was only Hall that had any real impact up forward. We lack class up forward, which was much the same last year where Barry played a lone hand. Griffen and Cooney haven't helped through being down on form in the past two games.
Jones is improving which is a plus.
Sherman will return but he is spasmodic.
Murphy would add skill and ability if you could afford to play him at half forward, whilst Roughead would provide a marking option up forward.

[Greystache]

In- Roughead, Howard, Schofield, Murphy, Sherman
Out- Grant, Hooper, Addison, Gilbee, Cooney

[Rocco Jones]

Is Sherman fit to play?

[Mantis]

What about Grant and DJ what is your take on them?

Grant - He is a worry. Playing like he did in the pre-season of 2010 when he didn't look interested. We will need him to step up next year when Hall isn't there.

DJ - There is a bit to work with, but it's an unknown if he will make it. I would like to see him get an extended run such that we can see what he has to offer. Regardless it seems a strange decision to give him a 3 yr contract.

[Greystache]

Is Sherman fit to play?

Well he's not listed as injured on the club website, so he's probably out for 4 weeks.

[1eyedog]

Grant - He is a worry. Playing like he did in the pre-season of 2010 when he didn't look interested. We will need him to step up next year when Hall isn't there.

DJ - There is a bit to work with, but it's an unknown if he will make it. I would like to see him get an extended run such that we can see what he has to offer. Regardless it seems a strange decision to give him a 3 yr contract.

Agree with regard to Grant, he needs to focus and prove he wants to be there and it all starts inside his own head.

What exactly do you think there is to work with with DJ and what does he bring to the table that Hooper doesn't? It's an honest question because I don't see it. The only thing I could offer is that he appears to find space (although probably from a lack of respect from his opposition) and then makes an absolute meal of the situation.

[soupman]

I don't think height is a huge constraint to a lead up forward you just need good hands and have the ability to get some space on your opponent. Milne leads up at times as does Blair, you can't make it in the AFL purely as crumber, there just isn't enough opportunity for this type of role.


After several takes at how to write this here goes:

Hooper will not make it playing primarily as a lead up type forward. He needs more strings to his bow. We are never going to have a need for a 172cm lead up forward who is an ok crumber. Our forwardline next year features Jones, Grant, Giansiracusa, Dahlhaus with a mixture of Higgins, Hill (?), Sherman, Roughead, Skinner, Minson, Veszpremi, Djerkurra, Lake and Barlow. Almost all are much better options as marking targets than Hooper, and the three (3!!!) that aren't all offer something else (Dahlhaus=crumber/midfield?, Sherman=Midfield, Djerkurra-Midfield).

This would be fine, except I'm not sure Hooper is a good enough crumber to make up for being the 6th (or occasionally 5th) best option in the forwardline to pass it to.



I would expect him to fumble the ball a bit given the pressure and the step up AFL is from what he experiences at Willy. He will fumble less the more he plays.


I'd be interested in hearing what regular Willy watchers think of how clean he is at VFL level. Is he clean enough, or does his form in the AFL reflect his ability in this area? It's interesting how players like Dahlhaus have managed to adjust easily, is it skill, or maybe athletic ability? Maybe Hooper is playing on players who are able to keep up with him and thus he is always under more pressure when he gets to the footy, which causes the fumble. Either way its something which obviously needs to improve.


I think his goals have come about from being in the right place rather than purely being on the end of a chain. That said it could be argued that being on the end of chain IS the right place and that's encouraging.


Yeah I kind of thought about this as I typed it. The question is more would another player have also been in the right spot? ie. Hooper managed to get in the goalsquare and get the cheap handball so he could slot it, but if a Veszpremi had been playing instead of Hooper would he also have been in that spot? How much of it is Hooper being smarter than our other forwards would be and how much is Hooper just doing the obvious and getting lucky? Considering the quantity of "cheap" goals it seems he is capable of getting maybe he is smarter, but I'm not sold on that.



His desperation is enough for me at the moment, other more senior players are getting a game and are giving us less and are showing less desperation for the contest. For someone who has been in the system a bit longer and has played more games DJ is more of a concern to me. He did some better things on the weekend but he struggles to do straight forward things. That dropped chest mark on the half forward line that went up the other end for a Swans goal is a case in point.

Yes but I think he has been given the extra time because of the attributes he does bring. Like Hooper when he plays up forward he does sort of go into a lead up type role which again like Hooper probably shouldn't be his strength. He's another that needs to show more as a crumber, and isn't as clean as we would want for this role either. So as a forward Djerkurra and Hooper are pretty level I think, maybe with Hooper slightly ahead because he seems to have a hunger for the defensive stuff.

But for me Djerkurra seems to find space easier, finds the ball easier and unlike Hooper(at least atm) can take a turn in the midfield, which is a big difference. It means you aren't relying on Djerkurra to have an impact as a mediocre forward for 90% of his game time. At least in this sense he can give you something further up the ground which could free up Cooney or Sherman to go forward. It's yet to be seen if Hooper can get his fitness up high enough to go into the middle, and then to see whether he can actually have an impact there.

By no means am I saying Djerkurra is better than Hooper, and I think DJ has a lot of faults, but I also think that Djerrkurra looks to me like he could develop into an AFL player because I can see some of the attributes he has could be dangerous, I'm not sure Hooper has those attributes.

[Dry Rot]

By no means am I saying Djerkurra is better than Hooper, and I think DJ has a lot of faults, but I also think that Djerrkurra looks to me like he could develop into an AFL player because I can see some of the attributes he has could be dangerous, I'm not sure Hooper has those attributes.

Watched both closely. Liked what I saw with Hooper, didn't like what I saw with DJ.

Watched quite a few DJ contests closely - I'm sorry, he just seems to lack something virtually each time.

One I remember quite clearly was when he was initially in good position, but then didn't read the flight of the ball very well which then went to the Swans advantage and then he wasn't quite in the right position to nullify the Swans player.

He tries, but most times it doesn't quite come off. Given his time in the system, will this really improve?

[soupman]

Watched both closely. Liked what I saw with Hooper, didn't like what I saw with DJ.

Watched quite a few DJ contests closely - I'm sorry, he just seems to lack something virtually each time.

One I remember quite clearly was when he was initially in good position, but then didn't read the flight of the ball very well which then went to the Swans advantage and then he wasn't quite in the right position to nullify the Swans player.

He tries, but most times it doesn't quite come off. Given his time in the system, will this really improve?

Unfortunately (or fortunately) I didn;t manage to see the Sydney match, so I can't comment on that. I agree that Djerkurra does tend to stuff it up though, he has a lot of almost good moments, things where he almost did something well but actually really just stuffed it up. I don't particularly see him as a likely AFL quality player, but I think he's closer than Hooper is. As for your last sentence, I reckon the club would have been hoping the change of environment would work to his benefit.

[Mofra]

Can't agree at this stage with only 5 games to his name and has kicked goals every game.

Faded in 2nd half today but, to be fair to all the forward line including Grant, Dahlhaus, Hall etc the ball hardly found its way there.
Hooper was our only other multiple goal kicker, and gave us far more than Dalhaus yesterday. Seems his papers have already been stamped by a few regardless of what he does for the rest of his career.

DJ is the one I'm most dubious of - we treat him terribly by kicking the ball on top of his head (our players seem to think he's a marking forward) but in the midfield he makes position, gets to the right spot & fumbles time and time again. 3 years seems a mistake at this stage - as a midfielder we have better options, both Hooper & Dalhaus are better as small forward, and Barlow and Sherman play the high forward role better.

DFA was our worst yesterday but will we drop someone after one game?

[1eyedog]

Unfortunately (or fortunately) I didn;t manage to see the Sydney match, so I can't comment on that. I agree that Djerkurra does tend to stuff it up though, he has a lot of almost good moments, things where he almost did something well but actually really just stuffed it up. I don't particularly see him as a likely AFL quality player, but I think he's closer than Hooper is. As for your last sentence, I reckon the club would have been hoping the change of environment would work to his benefit.

I'm sorry you've failed to convince me why you think DJ is a better option than Hooper other than it's just a gutfeeling of yours considering your finger is not on the pulse at Willy. Which is fine.

For mine, Hoopers defensive efforts alone account for what DJ is currently bringing to the table, Hooper is also kicking goals. That effort in the goal square against Grundy and Mattner automatically gives Hooper another run next week. I think DJ will once again be out of the team, or will play as a sub.

We'll leave it at that.

[Ozza]

I agree with Mantis' assessment that there are so many players clearly not up to it - and with it appearing like a long road ahead.

I'd be prepared to rule a very sharp line through the careers of quite a few - and make a concerted effort to play guys who have genuine AFL futures.

The main worry is Grant though. We had every right to think he would have a good season and contribute most weeks - but he has been as bad as anyone this year.

[Doc26]

The main worry is Grant though. We had every right to think he would have a good season and contribute most weeks - but he has been as bad as anyone this year.

Not necessarily our main worry but I agree with the sentiment. Would've expected more from Grant this season and is now walking along the same road as Josh Hill and before him Andrejs. What is going on with the development of what were at least likely types ? Are we getting caught up with potential over character in our recruitment ?

[LostDoggy]

Play all the kids and fringe players consistently for the remainder so we can decide who should be in going forward.

Retire or rest the senior players most are injured, fatigued whatever and we know what we can get from the ones we keep for next season.

Turn this season of disappointment into an opportunity.

[Mantis]

Not necessarily our main worry but I agree with the sentiment. Would've expected more from Grant this season and is now walking along the same road as Josh Hill and before him Andrejs. What is going on with the development of what were at least likely types ? Are we getting caught up with potential over character in our recruitment ?

I can remember hearing at the time of recruiting that one of the main reasons we picked Grant ahead of (Lachie) Henderson was because of character. Henderson wanted to fit into our forward structure whereas Grant wanted to be the man... you couldn't tell this by watching Jarrad play.

[LostDoggy]

I'd be prepared to rule a very sharp line through the careers of quite a few - and make a concerted effort to play guys who have genuine AFL futures.


Theres been a lot of discussion around whether our forwards are up to it, but for mine I think there are real concerns with our midfield. Without a fit Cooney I think our midfield cannot compete with top teams, and I'm not sure where the improvement is going to come from. Wallis and Libba look like very good prospects but there dosn't seem to be anyone with the ability to break out of a stoppage with pace and power.

[Ozza]

Theres been a lot of discussion around whether our forwards are up to it, but for mine I think there are real concerns with our midfield. Without a fit Cooney I think our midfield cannot compete with top teams, and I'm not sure where the improvement is going to come from. Wallis and Libba look like very good prospects but there dosn't seem to be anyone with the ability to break out of a stoppage with pace and power.

There isn't a lot of players in the league who can burst away from a stoppage though.
When North Melbourne smashed us in the stoppages - the majority of their clear clearances - were a result of Swallow or Ziebell getting kick hands forward where one of the wingman (Adams, Wells etc) or other on ballers got forward of the stoppage and gathered.

[Sedat]

We have the bye next week so let's have an almighty crack this week against West Coke, which means we leave Coons and Griff in the team this week. Resting Coons and Griff is conceding the season, especially if Cross is ruled out this week as well. Winning the contested possession battle will be critical this week (as it is most weeks). Just on Coons, he can have another week or two off after the bye if he needs it, or if we lose this week he can have the rest of the season off.

Huddo goes out for Minson and Barlow also comes back in this week - he provides ruck relief along with Jones and also is an extra defensive option if WC's forwards collar one of our defenders (which they did earlier this season). Roughy definitely comes in after the bye but we simply cannot afford to carry Baz, Jones and a ruckman up forward all match this week, even less so if our midfield quality is decimated.

[LostDoggy]

There isn't a lot of players in the league who can burst away from a stoppage though.
When North Melbourne smashed us in the stoppages - the majority of their clear clearances - were a result of Swallow or Ziebell getting kick hands forward where one of the wingman (Adams, Wells etc) or other on ballers got forward of the stoppage and gathered.

This just underlines the point about our midfield being vulnerable. North's midfield can't compete with a top four side - but they smashed us with Cooney and Griffen off the boil.

[BulldogBelle]

There isn't a lot of players in the league who can burst away from a stoppage though.
When North Melbourne smashed us in the stoppages - the majority of their clear clearances - were a result of Swallow or Ziebell getting kick hands forward where one of the wingman (Adams, Wells etc) or other on ballers got forward of the stoppage and gathered.



Boyd, Cross, Ward, Libba, Reid, Wallis, (Cooney and Griffin to a degree) are all inside mids

Name our gut running outside mids, receivers etc who spread during clearances and recieve the ball similar to what you described above....

We get smashed at the clearences not because we arent getting the ball first, but because we dont have the smarts at present on what to do with it next

[Ozza]

Boyd, Cross, Ward, Libba, Reid, Wallis, (Cooney and Griffin to a degree) are all inside mids

Name our gut running outside mids, receivers etc who spread during clearances and recieve the ball similar to what you described above....

We get smashed at the clearences not because we arent getting the ball first, but because we dont have the smarts at present on what to do with it next

We definitely don't spread well like we used to.
We seem to get too many players drawn to the contest too often.
What about Saturday early in the 3rd quarter - with the ball bouncing around between tackles and fumbles in our forward 50 for about a minute - we had about 6 blokes all trying to get the footy - and eventually Sydney got the ball out the other side where they had players lining up. You could just see it unfold so clearly - incredibly dumb footy....which was probably the standard for the day from what I saw (only really the second half).

[w3design]

Boyd, Cross, Ward, Libba, Reid, Wallis, (Cooney and Griffin to a degree) are all inside mids

Name our gut running outside mids, receivers etc who spread during clearances and recieve the ball similar to what you described above....

We get smashed at the clearences not because we arent getting the ball first, but because we dont have the smarts at present on what to do with it next
Though Ward is tough and can certainly play inside he's looked good coming off a wing/HFF and being the link man while others do the centre square extracting. We don't seem to have been able to engineer that the past couple of weeks.

[bornadog]

Boyd, Cross, Ward, Libba, Reid, Wallis, (Cooney and Griffin to a degree) are all inside mids

Name our gut running outside mids, receivers etc who spread during clearances and recieve the ball similar to what you described above....

We get smashed at the clearences not because we arent getting the ball first, but because we dont have the smarts at present on what to do with it next

I remember reading that Wallis was considered an outside player. The example was Libba was inside and fed the ball to Wallis.

[Pickenitup]

Saw on Sports News First suggesting we have a injury crisis this week with Cooney Cross Higgins
Gilbee Morris Jones DJ Griffen all in doubt and Bob will miss another week Ouch!

[G-Mo77]

Saw on Sports News First suggesting we have a injury crisis this week with Cooney Cross Higgins
Gilbee Morris Jones DJ Griffen all in doubt and Bob will miss another week Ouch!

Tanking? :)

[bornadog]

Saw on Sports News First suggesting we have a injury crisis this week with Cooney Cross Higgins, Gilbee Morris Jones DJ Griffen all in doubt and Bob will miss another week Ouch!

ok that means

In: Roughead, Cordy, Stack, Howard, Tutt, Schofield, Hill and Shaggy

[G-Mo77]

ok that means

In: Roughead, Cordy, Stack, Howard, Tutt, Schofield, Hill and Shaggy

Please replace Hill with Wallis. I really don't want to see the #20 again this year.

[bornadog]

Please replace Hill with Wallis. I really don't want to see the #20 again this year.

Good point, forgot about Wally

[chef]

I remember reading that Wallis was considered an outside player. The example was Libba was inside and fed the ball to Wallis.

He looks(and plays) like a right footed Priddis to me.

[Rocco Jones]

Hooper was our only other multiple goal kicker, and gave us far more than Dalhaus yesterday. Seems his papers have already been stamped by a few regardless of what he does for the rest of his career.

I think that is very harsh on Dahl/kind on Hoops.

Dahl had 9 tacklles to Hooper's 1.

I think Hooper has a boom or bust approach to a contest/applying pressure. I think it's the main reason he pinches a goal or two a goal but the vast majority of time he makes it easy for his opponent to rebound.

That being said I do agree that there's an overwhelming feeling here that he is done no matter what.

[GVGjr]

ok that means

In: Roughead, Cordy, Stack, Howard, Tutt, Schofield, Hill and Shaggy

Shaggy played in the magoos. Won't be ready for a while.

[LostDoggy]

Well , a hard task with 8 possible outs

Full Back- .......Jason Tutt................Lukas Markovic..........Liam Picken
Half back- ......Sam Reid..................Tom Williams............Brennan Stack
Midfield-.........Easton Wood.............Matthew Boyd...........Christian Howard
Forward-........Daniel Giansiracusa....Jordan Roughead.......Patrick Veszpremi
Full Forward-..Andrew Hooper..........Barry Hall.................Luke Dahlhaus
Ruck-............Ben Hudson...............Callan Ward..............Tom Liberatore

Bench-.....Jayden Schofield.....Ryan Griffen.....Dylan Addison

Sub-........Mitch Wallis


.

[G-Mo77]

Shaggy played in the magoos. Won't be ready for a while.

Is Barlow ready then?

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Well , a hard task with 8 possible outs

Full Back- .......Jason Tutt................Lukas Markovic..........Liam Picken
Half back- ......Sam Reid..................Tom Williams............Brennan Stack
Midfield-.........Easton Wood.............Matthew Boyd...........Christian Howard
Forward-........Daniel Giansiracusa....Jordan Roughead.......Patrick Veszpremi
Full Forward-..Andrew Hooper..........Barry Hall.................Luke Dahlhaus
Ruck-............Ben Hudson...............Callan Ward..............Tom Liberatore

Bench-.....Jayden Schofield.....Ryan Griffen.....Dylan Addison

Sub-........Mitch Wallis


.
You would hope that Cross and Jones would be still OK to play. The team you have chosen simply highlights our lack of depth. Addison, Stack and Reid still do not cut it for mine at senior level. There is still a question mark surrounding Hooper's ability to become a regular senior player. Schofield, Wallis, Howard, Tutt and Veszpremi and also Barlow who you didn't include are still unproven at this level. Murphy, Morris, Higgins and Cooney in particular are huge losses. I agree with Roughead's inclusion and he really needs to be played for the remainder of the season. So should Wallis and Liberatore who you would expect to both become regulars.