Leon Cameron: why and why not?

[w3design]

I thought I would start this thread separate to the issue of whether the club was right to part ways with Rocket.

I notice there is a lot of distaste for the idea of Leon but would like to get people's views on why this is so. It appears to be a mix of a feeling that he is not an impressive leader or front man; that he doesn't have premiership experience; that he is 'one of our own' ( which is, interestingly enough, viewed as a negative). I don't know much about Leon apart from him as a player so I don't have much of a view either way, but am a bit surprised at the antipathy towards him, so hoping this thread can be about what he can, or can't, bring to the club..so far I can't quite get a handle on why there's been quite a strong reaction against the idea of him. Thoughts?

[bornadog]

Leon has not played in the ultimate a grand final. We want someone that knows how to prepare players for a GF and has been through the whole coaching scenario at a GF, as either the coach or an assistant.

[dogman]

Leon has not played in the ultimate a grand final. We want someone that knows how to prepare players for a GF and has been through the whole coaching scenario at a GF, as either the coach or an assistant.

This and;
He would be too close to the players. He was assistant with us for over 5 years and would have relationships with most of them. Look at the issues with Port Adelaide now.
We need someone with no ties to come in and make some tough descisions and start of fresh. Someone that worked under Eade for over 5 years would have very similar ideas, I would have thought. If Smorgan is serious about a new fresh start then it shouldn't be Cameron.

[Sockeye Salmon]

None of us have any bloody idea if he would be any good or not.

Just like Neeld, Burns, Richardson, Sanderson and the rest.

[Chicago1]

No. How "refreshing" would he be after being at the club for 17 years?

[The Coon Dog]

None of us have any bloody idea if he would be any good or not.

Just like Neeld, Burns, Richardson, Sanderson and the rest.

True.

[soupman]

None of us have any bloody idea if he would be any good or not.

Just like Neeld, Burns, Richardson, Sanderson and the rest.

Exactly.

I hate these discussions over whowould be a good coach or not because when you're picking from assistants you haven't got a clue unless you're inside football circles. There'll be numerous people saying we "need" a Neeld or Sanderson but really they are just saying that cause the papers talk them up. The fact is this is possibly the uninformed piece of opinion us supporters can contribute because we aren't assessing them like players based on attributes they hold or form we've seen at other clubs, we are merely limited to seeing what clubs they have been at.

[w3design]

Leon has not played in the ultimate a grand final. We want someone that knows how to prepare players for a GF and has been through the whole coaching scenario at a GF, as either the coach or an assistant.
That's an interesting point of view but does that imply that a GF is such a completely different game to all the others of the year? (unfortunately none of us really know:(). What I mean is, I would have thoughit successful coaching is about developing a game plan and list that can stand up to finals pressure generally..this comes from repeatedly winning close games, games against other serious contenders, games when the chips are down and Razor Ray holds the whistle :mad: To me it is all that accumulated experience and self belief that helps a team win a GF. Example: St Kilda looked like being blown away in first 2010 GF..but their rigid, unappealing game plan held up and nearly got them over the line. Does a coach need to have played in a GF to instill that?

[Flamethrower]

If Leon gets the job hopefully it is because he is clearly the best candidate, and not because of some succession plan. No more "jobs for the boys" and playing favourites, both on the field and off.

[dogman]

How would Cameron know whats required to get a premiership when he has never been part of one. When he is there preaching to the players to listen to him, for what it takes, wouldn't the players be thinking "how do you know." It's a bit like when Knights was at Essendon, had no respect from his players for this exact reason.

At least guys like Neeld and Sanderson can give advice from their experiences in winning sides and winning cultures.

I'm still hoping for Malthouse but if it doesn't eventuate then would rather gamble on an untried coach that has been part of a premeirship.

[The Underdog]

How would Cameron know whats required to get a premiership when he has never been part of one. When he is there preaching to the players to listen to him, for what it takes, wouldn't the players be thinking "how do you know." It's a bit like when Knights was at Essendon, had no respect from his players for this exact reason.

At least guys like Neeld and Sanderson can give advice from their experiences in winning sides and winning cultures.

I'm still hoping for Malthouse but if it doesn't eventuate then would rather gamble on an untried coach that has been part of a premeirship.

How did Paul Roos know when he was appointed?
How did Alastair Clarkson know when he was appointed?

I'm not saying that being part of a premiership doesn't help but I don't think it's the be all and end all. What if Hawthorn win this year? Would that count in Cameron's favour?

[ledge]

We talk about how we need more culling at the club. I have a view I would like to put forward on coaches;
Untried coach comes into a club and is dictated to by the board and football admin on who he is getting as he is a new coach and just happy to get the chance.
An experienced coach will come in and tell the club who he wants and is prepared to stand his ground in this, thus assistants and change will happen.
I prefer the second option.

[GVGjr]

None of us have any bloody idea if he would be any good or not.

Just like Neeld, Burns, Richardson, Sanderson and the rest.

What we do know is that it will be different and Smorgon and company will measured against it.

[bornadog]

That's an interesting point of view but does that imply that a GF is such a completely different game to all the others of the year? (unfortunately none of us really know:(). What I mean is, I would have thoughit successful coaching is about developing a game plan and list that can stand up to finals pressure generally..this comes from repeatedly winning close games, games against other serious contenders, games when the chips are down and Razor Ray holds the whistle :mad: To me it is all that accumulated experience and self belief that helps a team win a GF. Example: St Kilda looked like being blown away in first 2010 GF..but their rigid, unappealing game plan held up and nearly got them over the line. Does a coach need to have played in a GF to instill that?

I want a coach that has experienced success, whether that is as an assistant or the main man and by success I mean a GF.

[chef]

None of us have any bloody idea if he would be any good or not.

Just like Neeld, Burns, Richardson, Sanderson and the rest.

This.

And to me I really don't think it matters that much if a potential coach has played in a GF before.

[Maddog37]

I think Leon was promised the job in Eades previous years but while he was successful it was impossible to hand over the reins. I think Cameron got sick of waiting and went elsewhere accordingly. The fact that he has had a year at the Hawks was a lucky piece of timing for the Dogs board as it makes his claim on the job more palatable to the outside world.

I also think that Cameron has a great insight into the current players which is a positive. The risk is he will be soft on some due to his relationships. I actually think he will have no issues with being ruthless and in fact will want to prove his strength initially by cutting players or making some play in the twos.

I think Eade played guys too much on a mates basis and Cameron disliked the boys club mentality. I also think Cameron disliked Eades ranting and raving style and will be much more controlled in his manner.

Whoever we get will be a risk.

[A dogs life]

How would Cameron know whats required to get a premiership when he has never been part of one. When he is there preaching to the players to listen to him, for what it takes, wouldn't the players be thinking "how do you know." It's a bit like when Knights was at Essendon, had no respect from his players for this exact reason.

At least guys like Neeld and Sanderson can give advice from their experiences in winning sides and winning cultures.

I'm still hoping for Malthouse but if it doesn't eventuate then would rather gamble on an untried coach that has been part of a premeirship.
If you go by that theory Roos would never have coached Sydney. What rubbish that he needs to have premiership experience.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

My concern with Cameron is his ties with the club already. He obviously has strong friendships and connection; I don't see this as being a positive. We need hard decisions to be made on our playing list and I feel an 'outsider' is perhaps in the best position to make these calls because he has nobody to please but himself.

I'm just not a fan of the whole 'get somebody from your own backyard' thing. Not unless they are a clear stand out.

Also - wonder if we'll get new assistants?

[stefoid]

If you go by that theory Roos would never have coached Sydney. What rubbish that he needs to have premiership experience.

Well yeah, there are always exceptions to every rule, but as a generalization, have premierships coaches been involved with permiership teams more often that not? Im not sure, but at a guess Id say yeah.

Im pretty sure that playing under or assisting a premiership coach cant be anything other than highly valuable experience for a would-be coach.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I think Eade played guys too much on a mates basis and Cameron disliked the boys club mentality. I also think Cameron disliked Eades ranting and raving style and will be much more controlled in his manner.



What a load of bollocks

[EasternWest]

If you go by that theory Roos would never have coached Sydney. What rubbish that he needs to have premiership experience.

It can't hurt, but I'm inclined to agree with the mood of your message. Why cut off your nose etc?

[Maddog37]

What a load of bollocks



Quality posting SS!:D

There is a massive hole in our mid age listed players. They simply did not get played and now it is biting us. This is partly due to continually playing the same guys even when out of form. This issue has been constantly raised on here even before there was any conjecture regarding Rocket.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Quality posting SS!:D

There is a massive hole in our mid age listed players. They simply did not get played and now it is biting us. This is partly due to continually playing the same guys even when out of form. This issue has been constantly raised on here even before there was any conjecture regarding Rocket.

Who and where are these mid aged players you speak of that are not getting a game because of Rocket's supposed mate first policy?
SS is right it's a load of bollocks!

I look at our list and I see a lot of guys around 28 plus mark and then a whole bunch 23 and under.
And I can't see any group of players who have not been given opportunities, who haven't demonstrated they deserve one.

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/players/tabid/8976/category/senior/season/2011/default.aspx

[Mantis]

I think Eade played guys too much on a mates basis and Cameron disliked the boys club mentality. I also think Cameron disliked Eades ranting and raving style and will be much more controlled in his manner.



That is funny.... Really funny.

[ledge]

I would think you would strive for a boys club mentality in a football club, you know one for all, all for one!

[kruder]

We have a tuff summer in regards too player culling and i'd be concerned about Leons ability to make tuff decsions on players he already has a relationship with.

Some posters on here have had a relationship with Eade and you can see that they have had blinkers on to any of Eades short comings. It's human nature when freindships/business cross paths.

Scott Burns from a far looks like a guy who can make these decesions and with the right support he would be the man I'd go after.

[Mantis]

We have a tuff summer in regards too player culling and i'd be concerned about Leons ability to make tuff decsions on players he already has a relationship with.

Some posters on here have had a relationship with Eade and you can see that they have had blinkers on to any of Eades short comings. It's human nature when freindships/business cross paths.

Scott Burns from a far looks like a guy who can make these decesions and with the right support he would be the man I'd go after.

You really think a new coach will come in and have a fire sale?

Great way to earn the respect of the playing group & members.

[LostDoggy]

A few points concern me and these are the reasons I am not excited about him coaching the Bulldogs.


He has only attained coaching experience at the Bulldogs and would be able to bring very little outside knowledge to the club
He would be too close to the players and many would be "mates"
He gained very little finals experience during his playing days and never played in a GF

[hujsh]

We have a tuff summer in regards too player culling and i'd be concerned about Leons ability to make tuff decsions on players he already has a relationship with.

Some posters on here have had a relationship with Eade and you can see that they have had blinkers on to any of Eades short comings. It's human nature when freindships/business cross paths.

Scott Burns from a far looks like a guy who can make these decesions and with the right support he would be the man I'd go after.

Please install a spellcheck. 'Tuff' is unforgivable unless you are 10 years old.

[kruder]

Mantis,

part of the reason our list is in poor shape is that tuff decisions have not been made. It's not a popularity contest its time.....

[Maddog37]

That is funny.... Really funny.


Please add to this Mantis. Why funny?

[kruder]

Please install a spellcheck. 'Tuff' is unforgivable unless you are 10 years old.

yeah sorry bout that I'm a financial trader always better with numbers. I've got use to writing in txt speak, it's a bad habit.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Please install a spellcheck. 'Tuff' is unforgivable unless you are 10 years old.

I don't think he took your advice. :p

[dogman]

How did Paul Roos know when he was appointed?
How did Alastair Clarkson know when he was appointed?

I'm not saying that being part of a premiership doesn't help but I don't think it's the be all and end all. What if Hawthorn win this year? Would that count in Cameron's favour?

Clarkson was assistant at Port when they won the premiership and am pretty sure played at north in a premiership.

For every Roos I can give you 5 Mathew knights. Nothing is 100% but we can't afford to take uncaluated risks.

[Mantis]

Please add to this Mantis. Why funny?

Because your claim is incorrect.

[AndrewP6]

A few points concern me and these are the reasons I am not excited about him coaching the Bulldogs. He has only attained coaching experience at the Bulldogs and would be able to bring very little outside knowledge to the club


He's currently at Hawthorn.

[comrade]

Because your claim is incorrect.

Mitch Hahn will be our full forward next year.

[Rocco Jones]

It's all a bit secret men's business. Why so harsh on Cameron?

[Go_Dogs]

My concern with Cameron is his ties with the club already. He obviously has strong friendships and connection; I don't see this as being a positive. We need hard decisions to be made on our playing list and I feel an 'outsider' is perhaps in the best position to make these calls because he has nobody to please but himself.

I'm just not a fan of the whole 'get somebody from your own backyard' thing. Not unless they are a clear stand out.

Also - wonder if we'll get new assistants?

This is a big consideration.

My guess is, if we offset the appointment of someone like Cameron with an 'outside' list manager, and some new, and perhaps more, assistants to go with him, would that help appease those not keen for Cameron?

At the end of the day, we just need to best person available, whoever that may be, and need to give them a chance to succeed by giving them sufficient support and resources. If we do it halfheartedly like Port have, we'll be stuffed.

[LostDoggy]

He's currently at Hawthorn.

Yes, but only this season. That isn't going to equip him with strong experience from outside the Western Bulldogs.

My main concern is that he really only knows the coaching game from a Bulldogs perspective and our history shows that we have not been a successful club.

[Bulldog Revolution]

He might be a great coach but my surface level take is that I just don't think he has enough experience outside of the Bulldogs environment yet. Another two years at the Hawks and I might have felt differently.

In replacing Eade we need someone that can get a whole lot of the footy department organised, and back on track, and so we need someone with the capacity to do that, and the real preparedness to get their hands dirty.

[Dogmatic]

Clarkson was assistant at Port when they won the premiership and am pretty sure played at north in a premiership.

For every Roos I can give you 5 Mathew knights. Nothing is 100% but we can't afford to take uncaluated risks.

Would you like a list of premiership players with ordinary coaching records? Michael voss, Matthew primus, mark Harvey, Tony shaw, Tim Watson, etc.

Please everyone, stop placing restrictions on what our coach needs to be....we just need to sign who seems to be the best available.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Would you like a list of premiership players with ordinary coaching records? Michael voss, Matthew primus, mark Harvey, Tony shaw, Tim Watson, etc.

Please everyone, stop placing restrictions on what our coach needs to be....we just need to sign who seems to be the best available.

Yeah? Well what about Allan Jeans and Tom Hafey then, huh?


PS. Don't forget Royce Hart or Kevin Bartlett

[Hotdog60]

Yeah? Well what about Allan Jeans and Tom Hafey then, huh?


PS. Don't forget Royce Hart or Kevin Bartlett

Saw Tommy T-Shirt in a TV ad, looking bloody good for his age.

[Bulldog4life]

My concern is that Cameron has already been promised the job, before Eade's sacking, and this "looking for a coach" is all a charade like Essendon did. He is a ridiculous "short favourite".

[bornadog]

Would you like a list of premiership players with ordinary coaching records? Michael voss, Matthew primus, mark Harvey, Tony shaw, Tim Watson, etc.

Please everyone, stop placing restrictions on what our coach needs to be....we just need to sign who seems to be the best available.

The other proviso is that they must be an assistant coach at a GF club. Guys like Voss, Shaw and Watson never went through the assistant role. Primus is stuck with a very ordinary list so we will never know and I think Harvey is a pretty good coach who has also been decimated with injuries.

Cameron was at the club as assistant for what 6 years and knows most of the players except the recruits of the last two years. We need a complete break and a fresh new coach. I for one will not be a happy chappy if we end up replacing a coach with a winning ratio of 54% with Leon Cameron.

[Dogmatic]

The other proviso is that they must be an assistant coach at a GF club. Guys like Voss, Shaw and Watson never went through the assistant role. Primus is stuck with a very ordinary list so we will never know and I think Harvey is a pretty good coach who has also been decimated with injuries.

Cameron was at the club as assistant for what 6 years and knows most of the players except the recruits of the last two years. We need a complete break and a fresh new coach. I for one will not be a happy chappy if we end up replacing a coach with a winning ratio of 54% with Leon Cameron.

What if Leon Cameron is the best applicant?

If you are unhappy to replace a coach with 54% win rate with Leon Cameron, does that mean you would be unhappy with any untried assistant?

[LostDoggy]

You know who has 'premiership experience' and may be out of a job at the end of the year despite taking his team to a top 5 position this year?

Rats would be a massive downgrade from Eade -- but you know, if Carlton do the ridiculous and get rid of him anyway as they are threatening to do if he doesn't make Prelims at least, he'll be available. Heck, anyone think the Carlton powers-that-be are quietly tapping up Rocket's management as we speak? If the Hawks belt them tonight they probably will.

[bornadog]

What if Leon Cameron is the best applicant?

If you are unhappy to replace a coach with 54% win rate with Leon Cameron, does that mean you would be unhappy with any untried assistant?

I won't be happy if they can't coach.

I don't think Leon is the best applicant as he has been at the club for too long so that alone makes him not a good candidate.

[the banker]

You know who has 'premiership experience' and may be out of a job at the end of the year despite taking his team to a top 5 position this year?

Rats would be a massive downgrade from Eade -- but you know, if Carlton do the ridiculous and get rid of him anyway as they are threatening to do if he doesn't make Prelims at least, he'll be available. Heck, anyone think the Carlton powers-that-be are quietly tapping up Rocket's management as we speak? If the Hawks belt them tonight they probably will.

Interesting twist Lantern

[strebla]

You know who has 'premiership experience' and may be out of a job at the end of the year despite taking his team to a top 5 position this year?

Rats would be a massive downgrade from Eade -- but you know, if Carlton do the ridiculous and get rid of him anyway as they are threatening to do if he doesn't make Prelims at least, he'll be available. Heck, anyone think the Carlton powers-that-be are quietly tapping up Rocket's management as we speak? If the Hawks belt them tonight they probably will.

I doubt we will go the Ayers /Blight option but intersting thought not 100% on Leon bit will be royally pissed if Goodwin gets the gig as per the strong rumour file halfway through the year.We all know he is a Fantasia boy as it seems is Smorgan I am starting to get really nervous about this!!!

[LostDoggy]

I'd like to think things will follow a set process and the best candidate for the job will win the job. How they could decide that Cameron was favourite two hours after Eade was let go is a bit baffling.

[bornadog]

I'd like to think things will follow a set process and the best candidate for the job will win the job. How they could decide that Cameron was favourite two hours after Eade was let go is a bit baffling.

This is the process that will be followed:

The Bulldogs will have chief executive Simon Garlick on the selection panel, along with football operations manager James Fantasia. They also plan to have at least two other people - a recruitment specialist from outside the AFL sphere and an experienced football person.

[stefoid]

Would you like a list of premiership players with ordinary coaching records? Michael voss, Matthew primus, mark Harvey, Tony shaw, Tim Watson, etc.

Please everyone, stop placing restrictions on what our coach needs to be....we just need to sign who seems to be the best available.

There are no hard rules, but it does seem to be a factor. What proportion of premiership coaches in the last say, thirty years, have come from a background where they havent played under or assisted a premiership coach?




Michael Malthouse
Mark Thompson
Alastair Clarkson
Mark Thompson
John Worsfold
Paul Roos
Mark Williams
Leigh Matthews
Leigh Matthews
Leigh Matthews
Kevin Sheedy
Denis Pagan
Malcolm Blight
Malcolm Blight
Denis Pagan
David Parkin
Mick Malthouse
Kevin Sheedy
Mick Malthouse
Alan Joyce
Leigh Matthews
Allan Jeans
Alan Joyce
Robert Walls
Allan Jeans
Kevin Sheedy
Kevin Sheedy
Allan Jeans
David Parkin
David Parkin
Tony Jewell

[Sockeye Salmon]

There are no hard rules, but it does seem to be a factor. What proportion of premiership coaches in the last say, thirty years, have come from a background where they havent played under or assisted a premiership coach?



How many coaches get the chance if they haven't?

Allan Jeans and Alan Joyce from your list.

Was Clarkson at Port when they won? I'm guessing he wouldn't have got the job if he wasn't.

I can't remember if Pagan was at North when they won in 75. I'm guessing he would have been at South.

[FrediKanoute]

Sometimes though being young and inexperienced can be a bonus. When you are young/untried you don't have much to lose. You can try things, different game plans, different positions etc. If it fails then it is generally put down to inexperience. If it works though (ah la Clarkson), you are hailed a genius.

I think calls for having premiership experience are important, but not decisive. Finals are 6 weeks of a season. Getting to the finals is the hard part. Getting through the finals requires luck and winning a GF is all about holding it together on the day.

I'm ambivilant about Cameron, as I am about most untried assistants. Probably the only 2 in recent history I have thought yes, I'd like these guys at the club were Hardwick and SCott (the NM one). Of the current crop I think they all much of a muchness.

As for experienced coaches.......Malthouse is a pipedream and I'm not at all convinced he would work for us on a shoe string budget. Roos is a Wallace clone - grew up with Eade's group - inheireted them at a peak and took them from there. Not sure who else is out there though.

one further thing, every successful coach starts as a novice coach. How they become a successful coach has much to do with their personality. Cameron's relatioship with the players will cut both ways, he knows their capabilities, but then making tough calls is all the more difficullt because he knows them pretty well. I actually think that he can make it as a coach and that he wouldn't be the worst choice.

[stefoid]

Whats a good coaches number one ability? Presumably if they arent tactically incompetant, Id say to get the ability to install in the players an 'espirit de corps' - to get them to stay in a mindset where they would be willing to do anything for the coach and for each other.

[Remi Moses]

I'd like to think things will follow a set process and the best candidate for the job will win the job. How they could decide that Cameron was favourite two hours after Eade was let go is a bit baffling.

Chris Scott was an outsider at Geelong.
My only question on Leon,is he tough and a hard case or a nice bloke ala Rohde??

[MrMahatma]

I'd thought Clarkson got the Hawks job during the finals and was moved on from Port before the GF...?

[azabob]

I'd thought Clarkson got the Hawks job during the finals and was moved on from Port before the GF...?

Correct.

Assistant coaches are interviewed during finals campaigns all the time.

[Remi Moses]

Silly arguement re. Premiership player.
Tony Shaw, Watson, Voss, the list is endless.
Clarkson was at Melbourne when North won in 96.
I'm prepared to suck it and see if Leon is appointed.

[A dogs life]

I won't be happy if they can't coach.

I don't think Leon is the best applicant as he has been at the club for too long so that alone makes him not a good candidate.

So Buckley should not get the coaching job at Collingwood going by your theory.:rolleyes:

[LostDoggy]

Clarkson had been a succesful coach at SANFL level at Central District. IIRC he started the successful run that centals have enjoyed since. He was picked up by Port on the strength of his SANFL record. IIRC Alan Joyce was also succesful at WAFL level.
So, I feel that some level of success is beneficial to be a successful coach at AFL level.
Nothing against Leon, I would rather someone from the outside looking in without any history with the players and a licence to do whatever they feel needs to be done with our playing list.

[ledge]

Silly arguement re. Premiership player.
Tony Shaw, Watson, Voss, the list is endless.
Clarkson was at Melbourne when North won in 96.
I'm prepared to suck it and see if Leon is appointed.

If he gets chosen we all will suck it and see!

[Sockeye Salmon]

Clarkson had been a succesful coach at SANFL level at Central District.

And Peter Rhode was successful with Norwood.

Relevance?

[LostDoggy]

Leon may be the best candidate, he is worth the shot as long as he has some experienced assistants.

Regardless of his history he will bring a fresh approach.

I dont know who the best candidate is but hopefully the process is correct.

[Remi Moses]

And Peter Rhode was successful with Norwood.

Relevance?

Beat me to it.

[LostDoggy]

And Peter Rhode was successful with Norwood.

Relevance?

Im not saying that having sucess at a lower level of football is a guarantee that success will automatically transfer to sucess at the highest level, but, isnt it better to experience success as opposed to not.
Some posters are saying that some current coaches have not won any AFL premierships and my point is that some of them have won premierships coaching their own sides at State League level prior to entering the AFL coaching system.