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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bornadog
Why would we trade him?
Maybe he's gone stale. Maybe he's not as interested in the changes in position as the coaches are. Maybe if an offer came along that Sam Power thought represented more value to the list than what we are getting, Sam might take it. I've said previously that I wouldn't be actively pursuing trading him, but that if a club came Sam Power and the offer was a good pick, or a McGovern type then we should be thinking very, very hard about taking it.
JJ seems only effective off half back, this forward thing is horrible. We've got Suckling, Crozier, Williams, Biggs (?), Richards and could try Dale, Lipinski &/or Webb there next year, plus likely Khamis. So we could afford to lose him... For the right trade only.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bornadog
Why would we trade him?
Because he has trade value and I'm not sure how interested he is in playing in a team that is rebuilding. It might be best for both of us to look at alternatives. If we wait another year JJ may drive his value down even more. He might become the JJ we all know and love too but he doesn't look to me like he's going to get there with us.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Hypothetical question: If Dahlhaus, Wallis, Liberatore and Roughead were all offered 3 year deals of $450-$500k pa by various different clubs, do we match all 4 of those offers. If not, who do we value highest?
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PeanutsPeanuts
Hypothetical question: If Dahlhaus, Wallis, Liberatore and Roughead were all offered 3 year deals of $450-$500k pa by various different clubs, do we match all 4 of those offers. If not, who do we value highest?
Libba.
Arguably, Libba only. I really can't see anyone offering Roughy that much though.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PeanutsPeanuts
Hypothetical question: If Dahlhaus, Wallis, Liberatore and Roughead were all offered 3 year deals of $450-$500k pa by various different clubs, do we match all 4 of those offers. If not, who do we value highest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mofra
Libba.
Arguably, Libba only. I really can't see anyone offering Roughy that much though.
Ditto, if Libba's head is in the game and he potentially wants to play with his brother in 18 months and be a genuine leader to him and others, then yep. We currently have one draft pick inside the top 40 (pick 5). Then there's West & Khamis. Dahl, Wallis & Roughy going will most likely land us enough points to add West & Khamis to pick 5. Then we still have 41, 59 & 60.
Pick 5, West, Khamis, 41, 59 & 60 - locked away without factoring in trading is a good starting point for an actual rebuild and not a refresh. So I'd let Dahl, Roughy & Wally go with thanks for their service.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bulldogtragic
Ditto, if Libba's head is in the game and he potentially wants to play with his brother in 18 months and be a genuine leader to him and others, then yep. We currently have one draft pick inside the top 40 (pick 5). Then there's West & Khamis. Dahl, Wallis & Roughy going will most likely land us enough points to add West & Khamis to pick 5. Then we still have 41, 59 & 60.
Pick 5, West, Khamis, 41, 59 & 60 - locked away without factoring in trading is a good starting point for an actual rebuild and not a refresh. So I'd let Dahl, Roughy & Wally go with thanks for their service.
Sorry can't agree. There are much worse players on our list that should be given the *rse than those 3 whether they command trade value or not. If you get rid of those 3, and move on the ones that need to be moved on you are gutting a 1/4 of the list. You are setting the list up for a long period of stagnation - see Melbourne, St.Kilda, Carlton.
A list needs balance. A balance between hard bodied players who can do the hard stuff and cool heads who can keep control of a game. You also need a blend of youth, the hunger, the enthusiasm. That's what Geelong, Hawthorn, Brisbance (during the 3 peat) and Sydney have all managed to do. Loading up on good young players without the hard bodies to protect and guide them will consign us to one hit wonder status.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
To my mind, Libba and Wallis are definite keeps. With Dahlhaus, if he is made a decent offer, a lot of the decision will come down to a call as to where his head is at. I feel like he may well be elsewhere next year. Any decent offer to Roughy may see us wish him all the best I suspect.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FrediKanoute
Sorry can't agree. There are much worse players on our list that should be given the *rse than those 3 whether they command trade value or not. If you get rid of those 3, and move on the ones that need to be moved on you are gutting a 1/4 of the list. You are setting the list up for a long period of stagnation - see Melbourne, St.Kilda, Carlton.
A list needs balance. A balance between hard bodied players who can do the hard stuff and cool heads who can keep control of a game. You also need a blend of youth, the hunger, the enthusiasm. That's what Geelong, Hawthorn, Brisbance (during the 3 peat) and Sydney have all managed to do. Loading up on good young players without the hard bodies to protect and guide them will consign us to one hit wonder status.
Herein lies how bad our list actually is. Picko, Morris & Smith should retire on injury alone. Based on not being picked, Roberts & Campbell should go. Based on playing poorly, at least Honeychurch should go. Based on not progressing over the last couple of years then Webb, Jong, Collins and Redpath have question marks (although some have contracts). So there's 6 leaving aside free agents who may or may not wish to explore their options.
But the flip side is we have one pick inside the top 40 in a strong draft, having given pick 23 to Carlton And not nearly enough to purchase West & Khamis in draft points without taking deficits into future years where we have possible top kids. So how do we actually get enough talent in when having the fifth pick in each round (except second)? We have to do something to bring talent in and these guys look the most likely.
Ideally there would be another scenario, but the list is in such awful state that I just can't see how we are meant to bring in new talent when despite finishing poorly this year we are left with one pick inside 40. I accept the point you make, we may look to delisted free agents, money ball trades or state league players. But Wallis & Roughy look on the wrong side of Bevo and Dahl is regressing badly. As I say, ideally there would be another way to address talent shortfalls and securing West & Khamis, but the list is just so bad that I can't see too any other option.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Didn't the AFL say that teams can just keep anticipating points from coming years for as many years into the future as they like? That sounds to me like we can spare the future points this year because we can effectilvely keep postponing paying back by borrowing points from the next year.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bulldogtragic
I'm not sure contracts mean what they used to. And you have to give up something of value to get something of value. JJ is tradable in my estimation, for the right trade.
He has business interests in Victoria and resisted attempts to lure him back to WA. Why on Earth would he want to break his contract and head to SA, let alone Adelaide who have the worst player retention in the competition (yes on past years they just shade Brisbane)?
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Twodogs
Didn't the AFL say that teams can just keep anticipating points from coming years for as many years into the future as they like? That sounds to me like we can spare the future points this year because we can effectilvely keep postponing paying back by borrowing points from the next year.
Yes, and it sounds like we'll have two FS picks to consider next year which means we get 20% discounts on each. Any deficits we rack up this year might just be taken care of by 2019 discounts anyway, although I expect us to lose a couple of players to FA this year (Wallis and Roughy seem gone, and despite Dahl's desire to stay we may just be low-balling him to force his hand).
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mofra
Yes, and it sounds like we'll have two FS picks to consider next year which means we get 20% discounts on each. Any deficits we rack up this year might just be taken care of by 2019 discounts anyway, although I expect us to lose a couple of players to FA this year (Wallis and Roughy seem gone, and despite Dahl's desire to stay we may just be low-balling him to force his hand).
It looks more and more that we will lose some FAs this off season. The club is virtually daring them to go.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
I think we need to play Roughead a lot between now and the end of the year. Get his 1st ruck numbers up, and fatten him up for Geelong to take him off our hands.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ozza
I think we need to play Roughead a lot between now and the end of the year. Get his 1st ruck numbers up, and fatten him up for Geelong to take him off our hands.
The trouble is he will likely hurt himself in 37 different ways between now and the end of the season.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ozza
I think we need to play Roughead a lot between now and the end of the year. Get his 1st ruck numbers up, and fatten him up for Geelong to take him off our hands.
They're all over Lycett from WCE though. I know who'd I'd prefer.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Its an interesting conundrum we find ourselves in. If we want to keep pick 5 and get West and Khamis we obviously need to let a few go that are decent quality. What that means though is we may only have 3-4 picks after trading up for points( As GVGjr has discussed) which leaves quite a few players on our list that have big question marks against them.
Id prefer to keep Wallis and Dahl I think we can get both players back on track, but you need to give something to get something. Unfortunately Roughead won't be enough to get us back into the second round. Would Jong still have a little currency? 3rd rounder like Roughy? If we do go down this path its going to be more than refresh thats for sure but I have feeling Bevo is gonna play the long game.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
BULLDOGS CEO PROVIDES ROUGHEAD AND WALLIS UPDATE
Western Bulldogs CEO Ameet Bains says the club is hopeful of retaining restricted free agents Jordan Roughead and Mitch Wallis.
Both players have been in and out of the senior squad this season and have found their names in the rumour mill, but Bains says no conversations have been had with Wallis about looking elsewhere.
“He clearly has got a strong Bulldog pedigree and is someone who is really popular within the football club,” he told SEN Breakfast about Wallis.
“It has been challenging for him at different times having been in and out of the side.
“We are hopeful that he can continue his upward trajectory with his form and really cement himself both for the reminder of the season and beyond.”
Bains also clarified comments made by coach Luke Beveridge in the media about Roughead’s future.
“I think what’s happened, a lot more direct questions are now asked of coaches at press conferences and certainly with respect to Roughy, I think Bevo’s starting point is we have been negotiating with his manager for a chunk of the season and want to retain him,” he said.
“It was more an expression of him being in and out of the side, and wanting him to find his best form in the context of helping the team, rather than his contract situation.
“It’s been a difficult period for him with his form.”
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bulldogtragic
What about Dahl?
Probably wasn't asked that question.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kruder
Its an interesting conundrum we find ourselves in. If we want to keep pick 5 and get West and Khamis we obviously need to let a few go that are decent quality. What that means though is we may only have 3-4 picks after trading up for points( As GVGjr has discussed) which leaves quite a few players on our list that have big question marks against them.
Disagree. We can take each with our next available pick after they are nominated, and if we're in deficit we can take that into the 2019 draft.
We'll have two FS picks in 2019 as well so it's possible that two of our first three 2019 picks will attract the 20% discount as FS picks anyway which may well account for any deficit.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Wines just re-signed long term at Port - and given the structural change the AFL is ready to implement I'm not sure committing to a big-money inside mid would have been the best (or at least not a risk-aversive) decision anyway.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Happy Days
Wines just re-signed long term at Port - and given the structural change the AFL is ready to implement I'm not sure committing to a big-money inside mid would have been the best (or at least not a risk-aversive) decision anyway.
He'll be their next captain and is a pure gun. He can hit the scoreboard too which not many inside mids can do regularly (e.g. Macrae and Libba).
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
This is going to need to be a huge trade year for us.
There are some huge holes in our playing list.
And some huge gluts.
I have deliberately left quite a few recent draftees out of this discussion as some of them are very good and some of them I don’t really have a handle on yet.
Nevertheless………..
We have a huge oversupply of mid-sized, mid-paced players with questionable foot skills.
3. Mitch Wallis
5. Josh Dunkley
6. Luke Dahlhaus
7. Lachie Hunter
14. Clay Smith
19. Lukas Webb
22. Mitch Honeychurch
24. Shane Biggs
46. Lin Jong
We have a surplus of tall defenders
2. Lewis Young
8. Jackson Trengove
12. Zaine Cordy
18. Fletcher Roberts
25. Marcus Adams
32. Kieran Collins
33. Aaron Naughton
38. Dale Morris
We have a swathe of rebounding defenders.
Matthew Suckling
9. Hayden Crozier
10. Easton Wood
20. Ed Richards
34. Bailey Williams
39. Jason Johannisen.
And ruck men? Not too many, but one that never gets a game (Campbell) and one (Boyd) who I think should be played as a permanent forward.
15. Tom Campbell
17. Tom Boyd
23. Jordan Roughead
44. Tim English
We simply can’t maintain this list profile and be competitive.
We lack genuine foot speed and foot skills, and we have no small menacing goalsneaks.
We need to lose some from each of these groups, although I’d keep all the players in the rebounding defenders group unless we get a big offer for Johanissen. And frankly, since he won the Norm Smith he’s been playing a pretty selfish, show pony, unaccountable, ‘look at me’ and look at my ‘crazy hairstyle’ game. It’s starting to wear pretty thin with me. Particularly his insistence on demanding the ball from someone having a set shot and then proceeding to miss time and time and time again. And I guess we’re stuck with Crozier for the time being. Let’s hope he continues to improve. And as far as the ruck group goes, I think Campbell probably deserves more game time than he’s getting. So for his own sake he probably wants to move on.
The top group is the hardest. I’d hate to trade out any father/sons. I just don’t like the look/feel of it. And I still think there’s a lot of talent in Hunter. And Wallis is a very reliable meat and potatoes type. Actually not bad by foot, pretty reliable as a set shot, just not a long strong kick, and we need guys who can break lines with their kicking. But I know Wallis bleeds red white and blue and I would hate to see him in another guernsey. I’ll say right here and now, to me he’s a definite keeper.
Honeychurch is a no brainer. Delist or trade.
Biggs is so hopelessly out of form it’s delist or trade.
Smith should retire I think while his knees will still let him walk.
And Jong, I’m just afraid he’s surplus to our needs in that group. Even when fit and in the team he doesn’t provide us with what we really need. Yeah he’s strong and fast and brave, but he still can’t kick well consistently, and if he was the only one who couldn’t kick well, you could carry him. Unfortunately he’s in a conga line of guys who can’t kick. I actually love him, but this is about logic and strategy, we can’t be too touchy feely.
Dahlhaus is a pretty important figure at the club marketing wise, and if he was moved on it would be a very unpopular move. VERY unpopular. But gee his kicking has gone so far backwards, that he’s almost literally kicking backwards these days. He can’t make the distance on a set shot from 30 metres out. If someone threw a big offer down and we could get the free agency………………geez you’d have to consider it. We simply need to weed out some of these types.
I’d even let Dunkley go if someone came after him with a decent offer.
Webb. Maybe better by foot than the rest, but little or no trade value, and just doesn’t get the ball enough in his senior appearances.
We need to cull 4/5 players from that group.
Then there’s the tall defenders.
We simply have too many. But none of them are worth much on the open market except probably Naughton (and we’ll be keeping him of course.)
Roberts, definitely out. Retire or trade for peanuts.
Marcus Adams, good player but so often injured his trade value isn’t what he’s actually worth as a player. An offer from a WA club perhaps?
Kieran Collins? Maybe someone is still keen on him from his draft year performances but his trade worth is certainly not gonna be much.
Trengove we’re stuck with ala Crozier.
Morris. His last year? Maybe one more…just…but no trade there.
Young, no trade value and still an untapped talent. So keep.
Either way, we can’t keep them all on our list in my opinion.
We have pick 5 (pretty sure that won’t change) and we need points for West and Khamis.
We need pace and foot skills, pace and foot skills, pace and foot skills, rinse and repeat.
Please discuss
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mofra
Disagree. We can take each with our next available pick after they are nominated, and if we're in deficit we can take that into the 2019 draft.
We'll have two FS picks in 2019 as well so it's possible that two of our first three 2019 picks will attract the 20% discount as FS picks anyway which may well account for any deficit.
Dont you need the points to take them at the pick they are nominated at? Its not as simple as taking them at your next pick. Thats the old rule your thinking of. We may be required to give up numerous selections to get both West and Khamis.
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-05-2...cademy-players
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kruder
Dont you need the points to take them at the pick they are nominated at? Its not as simple as taking them at your next pick.
.....
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dancin' Douggy
Webb. Maybe better by foot than the rest, but little or no trade value, and just doesn’t get the ball enough in his senior appearances.
Roberts, definitely out. Retire or trade for peanuts.
Both contracted for next year so unless we can facilitate a trade they are likely to remain on the list.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kruder
Dont you need the points to take them at the pick they are nominated at? Its not as simple as taking them at your next pick. Thats the old rule your thinking of. We may be required to give up numerous selections to get both West and Khamis.
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-05-2...cademy-players
2015 was under the old rules - they've changed again since then.
You take the player nominated by a rival club at your next available pick (with a 20% discount applied) and if there's a resultant points deficit that deficit is applied to the same round in following year. This is the first year the new rule is applied from memory.
They had to change the rule as GWS banked a truckload of late picks to take their Academy kids (2016 to 2017), basically getting first round talent for a bunch of third and forth rounders.
On top of this, the AFL is considering a change to the future picks rule - two years ahead, not just one.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Axe Man
Both contracted for next year so unless we can facilitate a trade they are likely to remain on the list.
Well that certainly makes things difficult.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mofra
2015 was under the old rules - they've changed again since then.
You take the player nominated by a rival club at your next available pick (with a 20% discount applied) and if there's a resultant points deficit that deficit is applied to the same round in following year. This is the first year the new rule is applied from memory.
They had to change the rule as GWS banked a truckload of late picks to take their Academy kids (2016 to 2017), basically getting first round talent for a bunch of third and forth rounders.
On top of this, the AFL is considering a change to the future picks rule - two years ahead, not just one.
It's going to be pretty exciting come draft night. Every pick that isn't West after about 12 and Kamis after 25 or so will feel lke a little win.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
West and Khamis have played too well to fly under the radar so any chance we can start some vicious rumours about their character to lower their standing with other clubs? I've heard they like to punch puppies, kick kittens and wear socks with crocs.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Axe Man
West and Khamis have played too well to fly under the radar so any chance we can start some vicious rumours about their character to lower their standing with other clubs? I've heard they like to punch puppies, kick kittens and wear socks with crocs.
It's frustrating that at the start of the season the 3 father sons that seemed to be getting the most attention were West, Fletcher and Blakey.
Fletcher and Blakey have both been tucked way for the season with injuries whilst West remains under the spotlight dominating the TAC for Vic metro(35 contested possessions in the past 2 games alone).....
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mofra
He'll be their next captain and is a pure gun. He can hit the scoreboard too which not many inside mids can do regularly (e.g. Macrae and Libba).
Oh no doubt he's a stud - just that I think there is potential for his type of player, if not him specifically, to become less of a dominant asset should zoning become a factor in next year's AFL.
On the other hand, I think another flow-on effect of zones is that the gunner with horrific skills could be back - does anyone have Brett Peake's number?
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mofra
2015 was under the old rules - they've changed again since then.
You take the player nominated by a rival club at your next available pick (with a 20% discount applied) and if there's a resultant points deficit that deficit is applied to the same round in following year. This is the first year the new rule is applied from memory.
They had to change the rule as GWS banked a truckload of late picks to take their Academy kids (2016 to 2017), basically getting first round talent for a bunch of third and forth rounders.
On top of this, the AFL is considering a change to the future picks rule - two years ahead, not just one.
You sure? The Saints bid on Naish last year at pick 34, then Richmond had to use picks 53 and 55 the equivalent points including the discount to match the bid. So your saying they changed it for this year? I read an article in the age this year that also states
this.https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/...02-p4zcxn.html
Finally found what your talking about changed in 2016 you cant hold more draft picks than spots on your primary list. https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/...22-gqyilj.html
You can use two draft picks to accumulate points and then they give you an extra pick at the end of the draft. As discussed its going to be a challenge for us with a chance of us having to use potentially 4 picks on 2 players.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kruder
You sure? The Saints bid on Naish last year at pick 34, then Richmond had to use picks 53 and 55 the equivalent points including the discount to match the bid. So your saying they changed it for this year? I read an article in the age this year that also states
this.
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/...02-p4zcxn.html
Finally found what your talking about changed in 2016 you cant hold more draft picks than spots on your primary list.
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/...22-gqyilj.html
You can use two draft picks to accumulate points and then they give you an extra pick at the end of the draft. As discussed its going to be a challenge for us with a chance of us having to use potentially 4 picks on 2 players.
That appears right, I think I've mis-read the points-deficit article from earlier this year, apologies.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dancin' Douggy
Well that certainly makes things difficult.
You can still delist a contracted player, if you can`t find a trade.
You then have an option to redraft (main or Rookie) or simply pay out the contract and have them move on.
For Roberts, I would definitely delist to make space and redraft as a rookie if there were no other takers.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bulldog Joe
You can still delist a contracted player, if you can`t find a trade.
You then have an option to redraft (main or Rookie) or simply pay out the contract and have them move on.
For Roberts, I would definitely delist to make space and redraft as a rookie if there were no other takers.
Doesn't happen very often without some sort of behavioral issue does it? When was the last time we delisted a contracted player?
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Axe Man
Doesn't happen very often without some sort of behavioral issue does it? When was the last time we delisted a contracted player?
Trav Cloke had a contract for this year when we shafted him.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Twodogs
Trav Cloke had a contract for this year when we shafted him.
True. Probably a slightly different case though. Don't expect Roberts for example would accept that deal like Cloke did.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Axe Man
True. Probably a slightly different case though. Don't expect Roberts for example would accept that deal like Cloke did.
He'd be mad to do that. Although he doesn't seem close to a recall to the AFL team at the moment.