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Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
You often hear that if aren't improving in the AFL then you are actually going backwards so with that in mind where does our improvement come from in 2022 so that we remain a top 4 team?
For this one I start looking at the back line options:
Backs
During the trade period we added Tim OBrien who probably helps our back line and provides us with a bit more height than our normal approach of playing two talls out of Keath, Gardner and Cordy and asking the likes of Wood, Williams or Crozier to play that 3rd tall defenders role. I think that could be a genuine benefit for us leaving us less exposed when opposition teams load up on taller forwards against us. O'Brien is athletic enough to play on the more mid sized opposition players as well. We also have Schache who could be used to cover any injuries to our taller backs. Khamis, Crozier and Butler round out the coverage for the mid sized defenders.
We lost Wood and Young from the back line options gaining OBrien.
The big question mark is:
We got a lot of drive from Duryea, Williams and Dale and as normal Daniel added a lot of poise to our back line.
With Richards probably also best suited to a role across half back could Daniel or Williams be a chance to move more into midfield duties in 2022?
I'd really appreciate the chance to hear where we might improve our back line results in 2022?
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
I think we improve with the addition of O'Brien as he seems fit for purpose.
A big improvement could come from better availability with Gardner a key as an improver. I also think the development of Schache as an option who can go back improves us.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bulldog Joe
I think we improve with the addition of O'Brien as he seems fit for purpose.
A big improvement could come from better availability with Gardner a key as an improver. I also think the development of Schache as an option who can go back improves us.
Gardner can reach another level and I agree Schache provides us with some depth for the key position options.
O'Brien will be given an extended period to prove his worth.
What I like about our back line is that a number of the players are very good with their kicking skills and we have players capable of taking the game on. Gardner and O'Brien should help us out more when the ball is in the air.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
I think that we are a better team with Richards' run and carry and McLean's smooth ball handling and disposal. O' Brien will add another player who can defend one on one and intercept which we have been a bit light on for the last couple of seasons. Marra will add some class up forward and I'm hoping that him and Schache can help cover the absence of Bruce who will be a big loss.
Darcy is the big unknown. Will he walk into the team and play some good footy straight away or will he take a season to work his way into senior footy?
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
Sweet, Ugle-Hagan and O'Brien could make a big difference
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
I'll admit I'm worried.
I don't know where our improvement comes from. TOB isn't exactly the name that changes an almost list into a premiership list, as canny as his DFA signing was.
Bruce is a big loss, not just the goals but the fact he took the no 1 defender.
The lack of elephant in the room - ruck. We seem to be backing Timmy in which is a very big question mark considering he was our no 2 late last year.
Sweet's played a handful of games at AFL level and his late VFL form was so poor we took a fringe KPD and threw him into the ruck ahead of him, I actually think his reputation here far surpasses anything he has produced or is likely to produce, and Stef is cooked from an on field perspective. We have zero depth there.
Our best bet for improvement is chaos forward of the centre. Most teams defend the high ball well, but with Bruce out all of the guys we rotate int he forwardline are actually very good at ground level - Naughton is better than any KPD on the ground, Cody, Garcia will play and he's a hard nut, Marra is seriously quick, McSteal will get games and is good for a goal + an assist a game just by reading opposition handballs, and Roarke Smith came from nowhere to play very good football at the end of the year. We're going to rotate some serious midfield talent there too - Treloar, Bailey Smith, Bont will rest forward.
You can plan for the high ball (and given Naughton is the best contested marking player in the game, teams will do it) but how do you plan against the chaotic bounce of an oval ball with an A grade midfield running onto it if you manage to scrap it out of the F50?
I don't think we have the personnel changes to improve, we have the potential exploitation of player attributes to bring some improvement. Then we hope like hell our ruck division holds up and we can find a no 2 KPD.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
Mofra, thanks for the detailed response.
After our triumph in 2016 there was a fair belief that things would just click for us in 2017 and it never happened.
After our terrific season this year I'm just a bit concerned that we didn't chase at least one more experienced player as an insurance.
Can we reach the lofty heights again next year? We all hope so but the we need to get an idea of where that will happen for us.
We need to see growth in a number of the younger players now to maintain the momentum from this year into next.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
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Originally Posted by
GVGjr
Mofra, thanks for the detailed response.
After our triumph in 2016 there was a fair belief that things would just click for us in 2017 and it never happened.
After our terrific season this year I'm just a bit concerned that we didn't chase at least one more experienced player as an insurance.
Can we reach the lofty heights again next year? We all hope so but the we need to get an idea of where that will happen for us.
We need to see growth in a number of the younger players now to maintain the momentum from this year into next.
Well, in terms of GF thumpings you have to go back to 83 to find a team that took the next step.
Yes we were 19 points up in the third, but we got smashed in the ruck, our mids were out of position, and we didn't add any further ruck support, so...
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
Our major improvement will come, off field, from thew new line coaches.
I pray to god that a coach who was under Mr. Defensive (Lyon) will teach out midfield exactly how to play defensively and stop complete pants-down ownage of clearances.
A new forward coach (maybe a little raw) will hopefully bring some new ideas to the forward line, and teach Naughton how to kick straight.
I can see JUH taking another step, Naughton, JUH and English as our three tall forward for the year until Bruce is back, Naughton to take the number one defender and that leaves JUH and English to do their thing.
Martin/Sweet will rotate games all year, I feel we'll be seeing alot of Sweet considering the club has given him a two year contract, do I think Sweet has the ability to be a better ruck than English with enough time put into him? Yes.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
Unfortunately, we missed an opportunity to improve in 2022 by denying Marra and Sweet more playing time this season.
Our ruck situation is diabolical and will stop us from progressing.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
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Originally Posted by
comrade
Unfortunately, we missed an opportunity to improve in 2022 by denying Marra and Sweet more playing time this season.
Our ruck situation is diabolical and will stop us from progressing.
That seems a bit harsh. If we played Marra and Sweet would we have even made the GF? In what they showed, the MC had evidence they weren’t quite ready. We had one hand on a premiership cup half way through the GF so must have been doing a LOT right.
Teams need to improve each year, that’s a given. Melbourne were a different side with continuity which allowed them to devise their extremely effective Lever-May setup.
Sometimes I feel we were so close to winning that match and other times when I think back on it maybe it was only a Herculean effort from Bont that kept us close. We had so few winners, and that’s on more than just our shaky ruck setup.
It’s been miserable and embarrassing seeing Melb fans gloat about the “toilet break minute” where they smashed us so comprehensively. I’d like to think motivation and pride will be an area of improvement for us, because those minutes could and should still be burning in our players minds.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
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Originally Posted by
The bulldog tragician
That seems a bit harsh. If we played Marra and Sweet would we have even made the GF? In what they showed, the MC had evidence they weren’t quite ready. We had one hand on a premiership cup half way through the GF so must have been doing a LOT right.
Teams need to improve each year, that’s a given. Melbourne were a different side with continuity which allowed them to devise their extremely effective Lever-May setup.
Sometimes I feel we were so close to winning that match and other times when I think back on it maybe it was only a Herculean effort from Bont that kept us close. We had so few winners, and that’s on more than just our shaky ruck setup.
It’s been miserable and embarrassing seeing Melb fans gloat about the “toilet break minute” where they smashed us so comprehensively. I’d like to think motivation and pride will be an area of improvement for us, because those minutes could and should still be burning in our players minds.
Good Post.
Mentally we hit the wall, after being locked in hotel rooms for 4 weeks and flying all over the countryside, Melbourne stepped up a notch and mentally it was the last straw. Make no mistake, it is all in the head.
Improvement for 2022 will come from the younger players having more experience - Marra, Weightman, VDM, Garcia, Gardner, Naughton and the addition of O'Brien. Tim with another year under his belt, hopefully a full season of Treloar, Dunks to help in the middle and a more settled backline.
This is not 2017 when we lost experienced GF players and then had to do a mini-rebuild for the following two years.
We have a great list and we will be top 4. We can't be anything less as it takes it's toll as we found out in 2021.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
If we have Melbourne's '21 injury run in '22 and they have ours.
All the improvement needed.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
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Originally Posted by
bornadog
Good Post.
Mentally we hit the wall, after being locked in hotel rooms for 4 weeks and flying all over the countryside, Melbourne stepped up a notch and mentally it was the last straw. Make no mistake, it is all in the head.
Improvement for 2022 will come from the younger players having more experience - Marra, Weightman, VDM, Garcia, Gardner, Naughton and the addition of O'Brien. Tim with another year under his belt, hopefully a full season of Treloar, Dunks to help in the middle and a more settled backline.
This is not 2017 when we lost experienced GF players and then had to do a mini-rebuild for the following two years.
We have a great list and we will be top 4. We can't be anything less as it takes it's toll as we found out in 2021.
Additionally, we were top two for almost all the year, stood up mentally in three finals that were each tough and challenging in their own ways.
I was interested (and anxious) about the stat of no side being beaten by so much, bouncing back the next year. While it worries me, I think last year was an extraordinary year and I don't think this was an 'ordinary' 70 point loss. The other blowout GFs if I remember rightly were inferior and overwhelmed sides that were never really in the hunt. I hope that's the case because the idea that, with a champion like Bont in our team and some fantastic young talent, we don't climb the mountain again is really painful.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
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Originally Posted by
The bulldog tragician
That seems a bit harsh. If we played Marra and Sweet would we have even made the GF? In what they showed, the MC had evidence they weren’t quite ready. We had one hand on a premiership cup half way through the GF so must have been doing a LOT right.
We played Lewis Young as our ruckman in the last few H&A games and 2 finals. We still would have made the GF with Sweet playing those games, and even better he’d have more experience under his belt heading into 2022 rather than those minutes being pissed away on a bloke that a) isn’t even a ruckman and b) already had a foot out the door.
One of the more baffling MC decisions of the last 5 years.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
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Originally Posted by
comrade
We played Lewis Young as our ruckman in the last few H&A games and 2 finals. We still would have made the GF with Sweet playing those games, and even better he’d have more experience under his belt heading into 2022 rather than those minutes being pissed away on a bloke that a) isn’t even a ruckman and b) already had a foot out the door.
One of the more baffling MC decisions of the last 5 years.
So says you. He could have completely shat the bed in all, one or many of those games and you'd be singing a different tune. He was crap in the VFL after he got dropped, why would he have been better and more complimentary to our prospects of winning a flag in 2021 by just having games gifted to him?
He wasn't played, we made a grand final but fell short, it happens. I don't look at the MC and think if they had have just played Jordan Sweet a bit more we'd have been so much better off, this year and next. I don't know how anyone could think that, if that actually is what you're thinking.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
A short answer to the OP, we get better with a bit more experience within the bracket of players 22-39 who carried a huge load this year, hopefully not having to play these players so much, and hopefully from a group of midfielders who may be held accountable for their opponents at stoppages under a new regime.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
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Originally Posted by
jeemak
So says you. He could have completely shat the bed in all, one or many of those games and you'd be singing a different tune. He was crap in the VFL after he got dropped, why would he have been better and more complimentary to our prospects of winning a flag in 2021 by just having games gifted to him?
He wasn't played, we made a grand final but fell short, it happens. I don't look at the MC and think if they had have just played Jordan Sweet a bit more we'd have been so much better off, this year and next. I don't know how anyone could think that, if that actually is what you're thinking.
Sorry Comrade, that's come off particularly harsh.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
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Originally Posted by
jeemak
Sorry Comrade, that's come off particularly harsh.
Young was very ordinary in both the finals he played.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
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Originally Posted by
bornadog
Young was very ordinary in both the finals he played.
He's not a ruckman at AFL level - and our cupboard was so bare we had to try and make him one.
It makes our failure to land a ruck at trade time even more damning.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
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Originally Posted by
Mofra
He's not a ruckman at AFL level - and our cupboard was so bare we had to try and make him one.
It makes our failure to land a ruck at trade time even more damning.
Agree, I only ever saw him as a backman.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
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Originally Posted by
jeemak
Sorry Comrade, that's come off particularly harsh.
This thread is about improving in 2022.
My point wasn’t that playing Sweet would have improved us in 2021 (though Young was effectively such a non-factor in the ruck that Sweet at his worst wouldn’t have been any sort of downgrade imo).
My point is that playing him instead of Lewis Young would certainly have reaped more benefits for us next year (more AFL experience rather than rotting away in intra scratch matches), I don’t know how anyone could argue against that.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
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Originally Posted by
bornadog
Young was very ordinary in both the finals he played.
He was a complete non-factor. A traffic cone would have had similar output.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
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Originally Posted by
bornadog
Agree, I only ever saw him as a backman.
Early on he actually played a couple of decent VFL games forward too - one particular game at Williamstown he moved and presented well at CHF and chopped out in the ruck.
He had talent and I wouldn't begrudge him playing a lot of AFL football. I don't think he had that real 'grit' you need to be a KPD though. Keath has it, Cordy has mongrel, and Gardner is a training animal who hates being beaten. Lewy just didn't seem to have quite the same 'hate' of getting beaten.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
The GF memory of Langdon tearing us to shreds in the last 1/4 and a half with NO competition still haunts. We need speed on the flanks, Garcia, Vandermeer, Treloar, Smith, McNeil.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
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Originally Posted by
westbulldog
The GF memory of Langdon tearing us to shreds in the last 1/4 and a half with NO competition still haunts. We need speed on the flanks, Garcia, Vandermeer, Treloar, Smith, McNeil.
It's not so much speed that is Langdon's go, but endurance. He'd be in the top handful of gut runners in the competition.
We have one player who could possibly run with him, Hunter.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bornadog
Improvement for 2022 will come from the younger players having more experience - Marra, Weightman, VDM, Garcia, Gardner, Naughton and the addition of O'Brien. Tim with another year under his belt, hopefully a full season of Treloar, Dunks to help in the middle and a more settled backline.
And don't forget Bazlenka. He went to an extra level in the finals. Imagine that level coupled with consistency across the season!
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
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Originally Posted by
SquirrelGrip
And don't forget Bazlenka. He went to an extra level in the finals. Imagine that level coupled with consistency across the season!
Yes, of course. Just turned 21, so still very young.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
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Originally Posted by
SquirrelGrip
And don't forget Bazlenka. He went to an extra level in the finals. Imagine that level coupled with consistency across the season!
His role seemed to change late in the season which was a big help too?
Perhaps playing him in that high forward - up to the contest - gut run towards goal role will give us an edge during the season.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
I feel another area of improvement will come if we actually have a VFL competition underway. This will benefit all teams, but we were particularly disadvantaged because of our long injury list. The conversation about whether to play Sweet or Young, or Rhylee West for that matter, would be different if we knew how they were performing at that level, plus there’d be the opportunity for those guys to work on weaknesses or what the match committee asked of them. I don’t think Dunkley or Treloar hit their straps properly either and VFL hit outs would have helped in that cause too.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
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Originally Posted by
The bulldog tragician
I feel another area of improvement will come if we actually have a VFL competition underway. This will benefit all teams, but we were particularly disadvantaged because of our long injury list. The conversation about whether to play Sweet or Young, or Rhylee West for that matter, would be different if we knew how they were performing at that level, plus there’d be the opportunity for those guys to work on weaknesses or what the match committee asked of them. I don’t think Dunkley or Treloar hit their straps properly either and VFL hit outs would have helped in that cause too.
Yes that helps... us, and perhaps everyone else.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The bulldog tragician
I feel another area of improvement will come if we actually have a VFL competition underway. This will benefit all teams, but we were particularly disadvantaged because of our long injury list. The conversation about whether to play Sweet or Young, or Rhylee West for that matter, would be different if we knew how they were performing at that level, plus there’d be the opportunity for those guys to work on weaknesses or what the match committee asked of them. I don’t think Dunkley or Treloar hit their straps properly either and VFL hit outs would have helped in that cause too.
We will get improvement from that and you would have to think that applies to most other teams that were prominent in the 8 last year. Port might be the exception
I'm hoping improvement comes from the exposure that the likes of McNeil and Scott had in the seniors and a break out year for Roarke Smith will all start to pay bigger dividends for us.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
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Originally Posted by
GVGjr
We will get improvement from that and you would have to think that applies to most other teams that were prominent in the 8 last year. Port might be the exception
I'm hoping improvement comes from the exposure that the likes of McNeil and Scott had in the seniors and a break out year for Roarke Smith will all start to pay bigger dividends for us.
I'm not sure asking the 17th, 18th, 19th guys selected to be the driver of change and improvement is generally that successful.
If I'm going to pin hope on anyone in the 22 to improve us, there are two players that just have to lift:
1. Dunkley needs to get back to his pre-shoulder injury form. We lost him for a chunk of the year and with his form on return he was probably a bit lucky to keep his spot. His first month or so was sublime, and I expect Libba to be managed through this year. Dunkley has to step up. We know his best is simply outstanding, A-grade good.
2. English. Martin's cooked and Sweet is raw. Our entire list management strategy seems to be 'hope like hell Timmy breaks out' and as much as I think he's a better no 2 ruck, the club don't seem to see it that way.
Cody's interrupted pre-season means he may miss a few games early in the year just as he did in 2021, and Marra will be incredible for us but not in 2022 as he still develops. We had a few players have outstanding years that may not back it up as they had one out of the box (can Libba's body hold up, and can Bailey Dale back it up?)
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
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Originally Posted by
Mofra
I'm not sure asking the 17th, 18th, 19th guys selected to be the driver of change and improvement is generally that successful.
If I'm going to pin hope on anyone in the 22 to improve us, there are two players that just have to lift:
1. Dunkley needs to get back to his pre-shoulder injury form. We lost him for a chunk of the year and with his form on return he was probably a bit lucky to keep his spot. His first month or so was sublime, and I expect Libba to be managed through this year. Dunkley has to step up. We know his best is simply outstanding, A-grade good.
2. English. Martin's cooked and Sweet is raw. Our entire list management strategy seems to be 'hope like hell Timmy breaks out' and as much as I think he's a better no 2 ruck, the club don't seem to see it that way.
Cody's interrupted pre-season means he may miss a few games early in the year just as he did in 2021, and Marra will be incredible for us but not in 2022 as he still develops. We had a few players have outstanding years that may not back it up as they had one out of the box (can Libba's body hold up, and can Bailey Dale back it up?)
Bevo may move some interesting chairs around. Dale to the backline as an example.
Our 2016 premiership team had plenty of those types of moves.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
Health and durability of the list. A small increase in this department, be it through luck or improved management goes a long way.
The ruck scenario. Either Sweet takes a huge leap, English finds that more consistent, competitive edge or Stef stays fitter for longer.
VDM in and progressing is really important from the perspective of physical, high octane pressure into our forward play. Need to start seeing that brand of footy emerge across more youngsters. Can’t just be Libba holding the rough and tumble side of the game on his shoulders. Laitham can really blaze a trail.
Quick adjustments to tactical changes from the opposition. Can’t have these wild swings in momentum. Cost us a flag.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ghost Dog
Bevo may move some interesting chairs around. Dale to the backline as an example.
Our 2016 premiership team had plenty of those types of moves.
Are there many moves left to make? Our backline is probably more settled now than it has been previously. Perhaps a Richards swap for Doc if Doc cops an injury.
Hunter rotating HF during the finals series was an interesting one. Roarke as a defensive wing might be seen a bit more this year.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
You're a general in an army, outnumbered or outgunned. The only way is to make the most of what you have, one game at a time. Break even or win in each position across the ground.
We are winning in most areas. Ruck is a concern. Have to find a way.
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ghost Dog
You're a general in an army, outnumbered or outgunned. The only way is to make the most of what you have, one game at a time. Break even or win in each position across the ground.
We are winning in most areas. Ruck is a concern. Have to find a way.
The history of the 'oblique order' finally overcoming the dominance of the phalanx (which was the military orthodoxy of the time) might be applicable here.
You need to be ahead of the curve in something.
In 2016 we jumped the comp with 'handball club' until the competition caught up.
After that Richmond dumped some talented blokes in the front half for pressure animals, loaded up the backline with a 7 or 8 man defence at times, and jumped the competition.
Hawks previously did it with sublime left-foot kicks.
Where is our advantage? The only real one I can see is a midfield that bats so deep we play 1-2 genuine talents at HF and push them up to the contest (a la Bailey Smith late in the year).
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Re: Where does our improvement come from in 2022?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mofra
The history of the 'oblique order' finally overcoming the dominance of the phalanx (which was the military orthodoxy of the time) might be applicable here.
You need to be ahead of the curve in something.
In 2016 we jumped the comp with 'handball club' until the competition caught up.
After that Richmond dumped some talented blokes in the front half for pressure animals, loaded up the backline with a 7 or 8 man defence at times, and jumped the competition.
Hawks previously did it with sublime left-foot kicks.
Where is our advantage? The only real one I can see is a midfield that bats so deep we play 1-2 genuine talents at HF and push them up to the contest (a la Bailey Smith late in the year).
Another advantage we have had is our marking power up forward - thanks to Naughton and Bruce. We have been number one for marks inside 50 with Naughton the king of contested marks.
With Bruce gone we need to make sure anything Naughton doesn't mark, the ball is scraped up by Cody, VDN, McSteel etc.
PS: Bevo has publicly stated, Richmond took our game plan and went one better.