-
Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Whately's turn to swing the axe, even though he's sure to compliment Bevo at the end. I actually don't mind the criticism. We need it, maybe it will force us to think about some of the ways we go about things.
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/10/...-the-bulldogs/
Gerard Whateley has delivered his honest assessment of where the Western Bulldogs are at, saying they’ve got “one of the great midfields” but “nothing else”.
The Dogs were bundled out of the finals in week one for the second consecutive season, going down to St Kilda by three points at the Gabba on Saturday.
While the Dogs kicked four goals to one in the final term to close within touching distance of victory, Whateley believes the momentum shift was more to do with the opposition going into their shell rather them changing anything tactically.
“The last quarter, I think, is a con,” he said on SEN’s Whateley.
“St Kilda invited them back into the game and momentum was so heavily against, they went ultra conservative which is a crazy tactic but that’s what inexperienced finals teams will do.
“If you judge the Bulldogs on the last quarter, you fall for the same thing that people keep falling for (with the Bulldogs). They are way more than two pieces short.
“I’m going to borrow a phrase from someone I talk to, I think Luke Beveridge does a phenomenal job with what he’s got but I think he’s building a 1000-piece jigsaw (puzzle) with 920 pieces and convincing people that he’s got it under control because he’s such a good tactical and game day coach.
“The fact that they can’t vaguely challenge for the top four and now they can’t win elimination finals, I actually think that tells you everything you need to know and I reckon they’re a long way from it.
“They’re all midfield, I think they’ve got one of the great midfields and nothing else. Beveridge does all his work moving players to compensate for it and the most important result is the way he used Hayden Crozier (in the elimination final).
“He’s brilliant with the way he manipulates what he doesn’t have.”
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Sedat will not be happy again.
Him and Gerard thinking along the same lines.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
azabob
Sedat will not be happy again.
Him and Gerard thinking along the same lines.
His cat doesn't know why it's been kicked on a Monday night!
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
It was an interesting discussion to listen to between him and Cornes.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
azabob
Sedat will not be happy again.
Him and Gerard thinking along the same lines.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day ;)
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
It's a bit simplistic to say that and yet he's not entirely wrong.
Outside of our midfield, who would concern opposition coaches? Naughton yes but his output in finals is below poor. JJ? I'm not really sure anymore, maybe they're aware and as such put plans in place to curb his influence but that works almost every time. Daniel would be the other obvious candidate.
Outside of that we don't have big key defenders to worry opposition, we don't have an intercepting game to worry opposition, we don't have multiple goal kicking/dangerous forwards and we don't have high energy and pressuring forwards. We obviously don't have a dominant ruck.
Maybe I've overrated our list again too. Then again, I still feel like with some tweaks and additions, we can challenge top 4.
Our trading has been poor lately and we've simply brought in FAR too many half backs. Moving forward I don't think we should have Cordy OR Wood in our best side and I think we need to strongly reconsider how we use Daniel.
Daniel isn't our best player but he's the architect and I'd argue we are desperate to see him creating play in the middle of the ground and forward of center.
He's been very good in d50 but he can't move the ball 100m up the ground to the forwards and when he's having to dish it off to the likes of Dunkley, Macrae, Hunter etc to deliver inside 50, well, it should be the other way around.
Interesting 12 months ahead for this club in many ways. We've really put ourselves in this position, we need to climb out of mid table.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
It’s funny, my saints mate was very confident last week. He said he was VERY happy to be facing dogs than any other team in the 8. I asked him why he was so confident? I said was it because of their win in round 2? Because this is a FINAL!!!
And his response was simply along these lines....
“Ryder/Marshall will destroy English. Your Slow mids don’t run both ways. I’m very confident Membrey and King will have no worries with the dogs backline.”
Blind Freddy could see what was going to happen in the ruck. I wouldn’t say it 100% cost us the game, but it sure had a massive say in our loss. Not Tim’s fault. He’s just not a #1 ruckman. Lack of pace has been an issue all year and that why Vanda’s injury hurt a lot. And finally our defence. Cordy/Gardner with Keath is not gunna bring fear to any fwd line. All they had to do was kick it on their heads and our lack lustre defence would do the rest.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DOG GOD
It’s funny, my saints mate was very confident last week. He said he was VERY happy to be facing dogs than any other team in the 8. I asked him why he was so confident? I said was it because of their win in round 2? Because this is a FINAL!!!
And his response was simply along these lines....
“Ryder/Marshall will destroy English. Your Slow mids don’t run both ways. I’m very confident Membrey and King will have no worries with the dogs backline.”
Blind Freddy could see what was going to happen in the ruck. I wouldn’t say it 100% cost us the game, but it sure had a massive say in our loss. Not Tim’s fault. He’s just not a #1 ruckman. Lack of pace has been an issue all year and that why Vanda’s injury hurt a lot. And finally our defence. Cordy/Gardner with Keath is not gunna bring fear to any fwd line. All they had to do was kick it on their heads and our lack lustre defence would do the rest.
Lack of pace. We are too one paced, Libba, Macrae, the Bont, Lippa, all good smart footballers, but none have pace. Bailey Smith has pace (quick feet and good accelleration), but we need more and we definitely need more if it in the forward line.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
I don't actually recall anyone within the four walls of the club openly suggesting we're anywhere near the finished product. Why do the media keep either overrating us or not consider that we went into the season with clear deficiencies and still have much to develop within our younger players?
Listen closely to the coach over time and he's stated clearly we're developing and wanting to get better as quickly as we can. What would we be saying about the capability of our list profile if we didn't win a flag four years ago, with a drastically different team?
In honesty after the Cats game I thought we should have been a week two or at best three proposition this year, and we fell short of the former disappointingly. But we played crap on the weekend and didn't really learn anything new about ourselves and almost still snuck home.
Finally, you can't suggest that one side gets to have an off portion of the game but another doesn't. St Kilda may have been off the boil for one quarter, but we were off the boil for three and almost did them. A bit of balance goes a long way to earning credibility.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
It’s a different angle and it gives food for thought. He’s right in that we dont have guns in every line. We don’t have key defenders or a fwd line that would scare anyone.
I wonder how much development of the likes of West and Weightman have been limited this year with no VFL, and how much more important exposed form is now for a trade in? I mean, this year could have thrown the development of the entire list out (less training as a team, fewer coaches etc) so do we need to be expecting slower or less development in players for a year or two? And thus trades in are more important/worth pursuing?
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Whatetley thinks he is an expert in every sport
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
It’s funny to see the media catching up only now on what some of us have been saying for months.
Whately’s lionising of Bevo is weird though, as if the personnel he’s playing isn’t his choice.
Anyway, good to see some heat applied. I doubt it will be the catalyst for any major changes or breakthroughs but we can dream.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
comrade
It’s funny to see the media catching up only now on what some of us have been saying for months.
Whately’s lionising of Bevo is weird though, as if the personnel he’s playing isn’t his choice.
As a club we've been chasing players outside of the midfield for years.
We picked up Lloyd, Crozier, Bruce and Keath at the trade table with varying degrees of success.
We've previously chased Hurley & Howard as KPDs and Martin and Wingard as forwards with class, we also chased Lobbe and Martin as rucks. I don't think we're stubborn and the club is simply happy with the list. We're always looking to improve.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Bulldogs Bite
It's a bit simplistic to say that and yet he's not entirely wrong.
Outside of our midfield, who would concern opposition coaches? Naughton yes but his output in finals is below poor. JJ? I'm not really sure anymore, maybe they're aware and as such put plans in place to curb his influence but that works almost every time. Daniel would be the other obvious candidate.
Outside of that we don't have big key defenders to worry opposition, we don't have an intercepting game to worry opposition, we don't have multiple goal kicking/dangerous forwards and we don't have high energy and pressuring forwards. We obviously don't have a dominant ruck.
Maybe I've overrated our list again too. Then again, I still feel like with some tweaks and additions, we can challenge top 4.
Our trading has been poor lately and we've simply brought in FAR too many half backs. Moving forward I don't think we should have Cordy OR Wood in our best side and I think we need to strongly reconsider how we use Daniel.
Daniel isn't our best player but he's the architect and I'd argue we are desperate to see him creating play in the middle of the ground and forward of center.
He's been very good in d50 but he can't move the ball 100m up the ground to the forwards and when he's having to dish it off to the likes of Dunkley, Macrae, Hunter etc to deliver inside 50, well, it should be the other way around.
Interesting 12 months ahead for this club in many ways. We've really put ourselves in this position, we need to climb out of mid table.
I like your post in the main but I think it is too soon for this narrative on Naughton to take hold. He injured his knee in his first final, where the midfield were totally obliterated, and the fractured cheekbone was probably a big concern on Saturday - again our midfield were beaten, delivery was shocking and Bruce just could not keep out of his way!
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Bulldogs Bite
It's a bit simplistic to say that and yet he's not entirely wrong.
Outside of our midfield, who would concern opposition coaches? Naughton yes but his output in finals is below poor. JJ? I'm not really sure anymore, maybe they're aware and as such put plans in place to curb his influence but that works almost every time. Daniel would be the other obvious candidate.
Outside of that we don't have big key defenders to worry opposition, we don't have an intercepting game to worry opposition, we don't have multiple goal kicking/dangerous forwards and we don't have high energy and pressuring forwards. We obviously don't have a dominant ruck.
Maybe I've overrated our list again too. Then again, I still feel like with some tweaks and additions, we can challenge top 4.
Our trading has been poor lately and we've simply brought in FAR too many half backs. Moving forward I don't think we should have Cordy OR Wood in our best side and I think we need to strongly reconsider how we use Daniel.
Daniel isn't our best player but he's the architect and I'd argue we are desperate to see him creating play in the middle of the ground and forward of center.
He's been very good in d50 but he can't move the ball 100m up the ground to the forwards and when he's having to dish it off to the likes of Dunkley, Macrae, Hunter etc to deliver inside 50, well, it should be the other way around.
Interesting 12 months ahead for this club in many ways. We've really put ourselves in this position, we need to climb out of mid table.
Agree entirely with this TBB. I am hoping Caleb trains with the mid field/forwards over the summer.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Tony Libba rang SEN apparently to have a go at Gerard.
Quote:
The 1990 Brownlow Medallist said Whateley’s comments were “flawed” and “totally out of line”.
“I just think we’re one or two players short,” Liberatore said.
“Is Aaron Naughton nothing? Is Tim English nothing? Give me Naughton any day over Tom Hawkins, right here, right now.
“He’s just come off from a broken cheekbone and he had a really good last quarter where he took three big pack marks and nearly won the game for us.
“Tom Hawkins kicked five behinds and was beaten by a player (Trent McKenzie) who was let go from Gold Coast and has done an amazing job from Port Adelaide.
“I just think your comments are flawed, I believe strongly in this and never rang up and mentioned this – I think we’re doing a good job and we’re just a couple of players short.
“How hard you went on us yesterday from my understanding from a friend of mine, is totally out of line.”
I agree with Tony, we are a few players short of being top 4, second ruck, Fullback, and small pressure forward.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
I hope the club don't agree with Libba.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bornadog
Tony Libba rang SEN apparently to have a go at Gerard.
The 1990 Brownlow Medallist said Whateley’s comments were “flawed” and “totally out of line”.
“I just think we’re one or two players short,” Liberatore said.
“Is Aaron Naughton nothing? Is Tim English nothing? Give me Naughton any day over Tom Hawkins, right here, right now.
“He’s just come off from a broken cheekbone and he had a really good last quarter where he took three big pack marks and nearly won the game for us.
“Tom Hawkins kicked five behinds and was beaten by a player (Trent McKenzie) who was let go from Gold Coast and has done an amazing job from Port Adelaide.
“I just think your comments are flawed, I believe strongly in this and never rang up and mentioned this – I think we’re doing a good job and we’re just a couple of players short.
“How hard you went on us yesterday from my understanding from a friend of mine, is totally out of line.”
I agree with Tony, we are a few players short of being top 4, second ruck, Fullback, and small pressure forward.
Still love Tony Libba!
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Gerard has pretty much nailed this as he usually does. The list needs some work, the only thing I’m confident in is that we have a top line coach. Bevo does have to take some responsibility for the list though as he would have to have a say in how deep we do/don’t cut.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bornadog
Whatetley thinks he is an expert in every sport
Whateley grates but not sure it takes an expert to voice the flaws we've laid bare in consecutive finals failures now, with middling seasons to match.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
comrade
I hope the club don't agree with Libba.
Indeed. Unsure why Libba's suddenly so defensive but if the footy department's satisfied some tinkering will cure our ills we'll continue to tread water, or sink.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rocket Science
Indeed. Unsure why Libba's suddenly so defensive but if the footy department's satisfied some tinkering will cure our ills we'll continue to tread water, or sink.
He didn't say some tinkering, he said a few players, which I agree on.
Are you and Comrade talking wholesale changes?
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
I'm talking the entire game plan needs scrapping and significant turn over of personnel from our EF team is required. Adding a genuine, mature ruck to partner with English is only the start.
The entire balance is out of whack. Our talls aren't tall or good enough. Our smalls aren't quick or skilful enough. Our forward line is full of slow, non forwards who can't tackle or create opportunity. Our backline is fragile, our defensive set up is completely exposed against good sides and relies on midfield dominance. We are stacked with mid sized half back flankers, yet none of them are weapons in the air or generate attack from half back intercepts.
Our trade strategy is flawed, with no slam dunk game changing inclusions in 4 years (Keath is closest). Our development of younger players is questionable (2020 has made this difficult so they get some leeway there). Which kid besides Vandermeer really jumped out of the box this year?
Our match selection seems nonsensical at times.
There are problems everywhere and we are destined for more mid table finishes if significant changes aren't made. If you can't see that after 4 years of the same results, we're watching a team through a completely different lens.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Gotta love Libba & his passion. Kinda think truth is half way bw Whately & optimists.
Great to debate issues like this on woof. Different perspectives enrich forum.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
josie
Gotta love Libba & his passion. Kinda think truth is half way bw Whately & optimists.
Great to debate issues like this on woof. Different perspectives enrich forum.
We have to be realistic as well.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bornadog
We have to be realistic as well.
Yeah, that would be a breath of fresh air.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Surely the stat that we’ve spent 2 weeks in the top 4 out of 80 weeks of footy says we’re a fair way off?
Don’t forget, most other teams will improve next year too. We need to make a step change in order to move up the ladder. It could be only 2 key players... but it could be a lot more, could be a full rework of game plan... but it needs to have an impact. A real impact.
Ultimately, the changes we’ve made in the past 12 months have made a net 0 impact.
We are, in real terms, no better off than last year... just a year older.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrMahatma
Surely the stat that we’ve spent 2 weeks in the top 4 out of 80 weeks of footy says we’re a fair way off?
Don’t forget, most other teams will improve next year too. We need to make a step change in order to move up the ladder. It could be only 2 key players... but it could be a lot more, could be a full rework of game plan... but it needs to have an impact. A real impact.
Ultimately, the changes we’ve made in the past 12 months have made a net 0 impact.
We are, in real terms, no better off than last year... just a year older.
I'd say we've gone back a step, in that we didn't really threaten any of the top 6 clubs this year at all.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrMahatma
Surely the stat that we’ve spent 2 weeks in the top 4 out of 80 weeks of footy says we’re a fair way off?
Don’t forget, most other teams will improve next year too. We need to make a step change in order to move up the ladder. It could be only 2 key players... but it could be a lot more, could be a full rework of game plan... but it needs to have an impact. A real impact.
Ultimately, the changes we’ve made in the past 12 months have made a net 0 impact.
We are, in real terms, no better off than last year... just a year older.
We have to also remember, this has been a difficult year for not just us but every team with second tier competitions non existent.
This has stifled development of a lot of players. I feel sorry for the 1st and 2nd year players like Butler, Weightman, West to name a few. Even JUH who isn't even at the club yet - who knows how he goes. We are basing it all on a 17 year old, and at that age there is a big difference between 17, 18, 19 year olds.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
comrade
I'm talking the entire game plan needs scrapping and significant turn over of personnel from our EF team is required. Adding a genuine, mature ruck to partner with English is only the start.
The entire balance is out of whack. Our talls aren't tall or good enough. Our smalls aren't quick or skilful enough. Our forward line is full of slow, non forwards who can't tackle or create opportunity. Our backline is fragile, our defensive set up is completely exposed against good sides and relies on midfield dominance. We are stacked with mid sized half back flankers, yet none of them are weapons in the air or generate attack from half back intercepts.
Our trade strategy is flawed, with no slam dunk game changing inclusions in 4 years (Keath is closest). Our development of younger players is questionable (2020 has made this difficult so they get some leeway there). Which kid besides Vandermeer really jumped out of the box this year?
Our match selection seems nonsensical at times.
There are problems everywhere and we are destined for more mid table finishes if significant changes aren't made. If you can't see that after 4 years of the same results, we're watching a team through a completely different lens.
Bailey Williams was the other nice surprise this year but the stalled progress of a host of others continues to confound. Oddly, rather than picking over other team's scraps I forlornly believe the remedies to some of our problems already exist on the list but am losing faith we're able to competently maximise those assets, granted this year's been a write off, developmentally.
More broadly, how about a more durable game plan that's less volatile, less boom or bust? A plan our players are able to reliably execute for something closer to four quarters?
When inclined to wonder if that's just not Bevo's style I recall the sides we sent out in 2015 & 2016 that shared one reassuring trait, namely resilience when tested. We could take a punch, readjust if need be then answer back, showing the kind of character 'good' sides possessed and affirmed, shit, suddenly we were one of them.
Right now, however breathtaking our best footy is, nobody, NOBODY would approach us without thinking they're a chance because how can you trust us?
The gag about Sam Pang being nicknamed 'the Orchid' as a player because he needed absolutely perfect conditions to thrive feels like it was coined for us right now. This team's too talented for that to be its post-flag legacy.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rocket Science
The gag about Sam Pang being nicknamed 'the Orchid' as a player because he needed absolutely perfect conditions to thrive feels like it was coined for us right now. This team's too talented for that to be its post-flag legacy.
Geez, truth hurts but we are the Western Orchids right now.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
comrade
I'd say we've gone back a step, in that we didn't really threaten any of the top 6 clubs this year at all.
So we are worse than the team that played GWS in last years final?
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bornadog
So we are worse than the team that played GWS in last years final?
I find it hard to grade it. I think we're about the same although I really thought towards the end of last season we looked pretty potent up forward.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bornadog
So we are worse than the team that played GWS in last years final?
Whether we're worse or we've just stagnated/not improved is neither here nor there and it's arbritrary. You can argue I'm wrong, but you can't prove it.
The reality is we haven't progressed, and that's the problem.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
comrade
Whether we're worse or we've just stagnated/not improved is neither here nor there and it's arbritrary. You can argue I'm wrong, but you can't prove it.
The reality is we haven't progressed, and that's the problem.
But why say it?
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bornadog
But why say it?
Honestly, who cares?
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Whether we’re worse or not is subjective but nobody could argue we’re better.
Put it this way, if we were playing a team of GWS’ 2019 EF capability, like say Saturday nights Richmond, we would have been smashed. The saints, whilst not a bad side, were not much chop. Our game was not up to finals standard. This years EF cannot be compared to last years. I hate that the close result has clouded some judgment on our performance.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bornadog
So we are worse than the team that played GWS in last years final?
I’d argue that our form at the back end of last year (prior the the finals) was way ahead of anything we hit this year. So on that metric of our best footy then yeah, I’d suggest we possibly are.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
comrade
Geez, truth hurts but we are the Western Orchids right now.
Ah jeez, see what you made me do.
https://i.ibb.co/58LxNnM/CARNA-ORCHIDS.png
Anyway, CARNA ORCHIDS.
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bornadog
So we are worse than the team that played GWS in last years final?
I don't think we are better, perhaps it's a line ball comparison or just leaning towards a bit worse
Remember we brought in two players to address our needs from the previous season and we haven't necessarily progressed
-
Re: Gerard whateley delivers honest assessment of the bulldogs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
comrade
I'm talking the entire game plan needs scrapping and significant turn over of personnel from our EF team is required. Adding a genuine, mature ruck to partner with English is only the start.
The entire balance is out of whack. Our talls aren't tall or good enough. Our smalls aren't quick or skilful enough. Our forward line is full of slow, non forwards who can't tackle or create opportunity. Our backline is fragile, our defensive set up is completely exposed against good sides and relies on midfield dominance. We are stacked with mid sized half back flankers, yet none of them are weapons in the air or generate attack from half back intercepts.
Our trade strategy is flawed, with no slam dunk game changing inclusions in 4 years (Keath is closest). Our development of younger players is questionable (2020 has made this difficult so they get some leeway there). Which kid besides Vandermeer really jumped out of the box this year?
Our match selection seems nonsensical at times.
There are problems everywhere and we are destined for more mid table finishes if significant changes aren't made. If you can't see that after 4 years of the same results, we're watching a team through a completely different lens.
Brilliant post Comrade. I agree 1000%