Re: Melbourne Watch 2023/24
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hujsh
So fair to say it's value as a measure is debateable at best.
No. I don't agree. It's ability to measure an athlete's fitness progress and its importance for doing that is not why they stopped using it.
The negative impact it can have on people when it comes to things like athletes relationship with their body and possibly eating disorders is what stopped its use. The potential upside isn't worth the potential negative consquences. Players welfare is put before straight out performance.
The Nike Oregon project was widely criticies for moniroting athletes body composition, especially females and the impact it had on them.
Articles:
https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/11...regon-project/
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/07/o...mary-cain.html
Re: Melbourne Watch 2023/24
Quote:
Originally Posted by
angelopetraglia
No. I don't agree. It's ability to measure an athlete's fitness progress and its importance for doing that is not why they stopped using it.
The negative impact it can have on people when it comes to things like athletes relationship with their body and possibly eating disorders is what stopped its use. The potential upside isn't worth the potential negative consquences. Players welfare is put before straight out performance.
The Nike Oregon project was widely criticies for moniroting athletes body composition, especially females and the impact it had on them.
Articles:
https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/11...regon-project/
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/07/o...mary-cain.html
Do you have evidence to back that up? Specifically that it is the reason it's not used in the AFL?
Re: Melbourne Watch 2023/24
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Grantysghost
This journal article from the British Journal of Sports Medicine from 2006 has some interesting points :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2657493/
Cocaine in sport
Despite the popular myth, cocaine does not really enhance performance, whether in the job, in sports, at school, or during sex. On the contrary, long term use can lead to loss of concentration, irritability, loss of memory, paranoia, loss of energy, anxiety, and a loss of interest in sex. In particular, several studies have shown that cocaine has no beneficial effect on running times and reduces endurance performance. Furthermore, at all doses, cocaine significantly increases glycogen degradation while increasing plasma lactate concentration without producing consistent changes in plasma catecholamine levels.
Anyone who says cocaine is performance enhancing probably hasn't had a lot of experience with it or people who use it.
Re: Melbourne Watch 2023/24
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hujsh
Do you have evidence to back that up? Specifically that it is the reason it's not used in the AFL?
No. Not at all.
Pure speculation based on them even going as far as not even publishing player weights.
Re: Melbourne Watch 2023/24
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GVGjr
The point of view I'm putting forward should be simple to understand if you really want to.
It's about having consequences for your actions if I'm not making that as clear as it should be.
There are consequences for being over the limit as a driver and there should be consequences for being over the limit as a professional footballer with drugs.
During the season the starting point is supposed to be 0.00 as the limit for drugs being in players systems.
Some players can achieve that and clearly some others can't.
If a player makes an error during the week and self reports he's given a week off by the Doctor and in my opinion that is his first and final strike for the season. If he does it again during the season he should be given a period of time away from the club and the coach should be informed of his challenges. The coach can then make a decision if he wants to maintain the player on the list.
If he gets off course again the following season then we go through the same process but there is no 3rd chance.
Players are given extensive education and it isn't working like it should, if they want to be all in as a footballer then there shouldn't be a lot of latitude for them to keep pushing the boundaries and taking drugs.
I understand the hard line but I don't think it helps if players genuinely have a medically diagnosed dependency or addiction. Getting high after a game on a Saturday night and having something in your system a few days later isn't going to do a lot for your performance most likely, and by the time you're testing at the end of the week or on the following game day you're unlikely to be drug affected. Having a dependency or addiction to worry about week to week, having your employment taken from you (one of the things that keeps you on the straight and narrow to an extent) because of those things doesn't sound helpful to me.
The AFL and the players are already going over and above what is required of them by WADA/ legislatively, I don't see how you can put a more punitive program in place without offering up the players more beneficial conditions. The AFL, clubs and the public aren't the police, they can try to be and that's fine but if that doesn't align with the best advice from actual professionals rather than ex-footballers or club administrators then it's a bit silly.
No offence G, but your opinion or mine for that matter doesn't and shouldn't have the same gravitas as an expert in drug dependence or addiction management. We can flap our arms or otherwise as much as we like, but I'd hate to see the health of players compromised in order to satisfy a hard line ideology or for the transparency (read potential for titillating content) sought by the public or league/ club staff or media with clearly vested interests outside of player wellbeing.
And I get the moral side of it that creates and issue for people, but what's moral changes over time as society evolves. The laws probably should as well.
Re: Melbourne Watch 2023/24
Quote:
Originally Posted by
angelopetraglia
No. Not at all.
Pure speculation based on them even going as far as not even publishing player weights.
Appreciate the honesty. I'm open to changing my mind but not without evidence.
Re: Melbourne Watch 2023/24
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jeemak
Anyone who says cocaine is performance enhancing probably hasn't had a lot of experience with it or people who use it.
Is that from personal experience? ;)
I would say it probably effects people differently good and bad.
Re: Melbourne Watch 2023/24
Also I know there is addiction but why would a professional athlete continue using cocaine if it made his performances worse? He is risking his career.
Re: Melbourne Watch 2023/24
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JanLorMill
Is that from personal experience? ;)
I would say it probably effects people differently good and bad.
I've never tried to perform in elite sports on cocaine.
Re: Melbourne Watch 2023/24
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jeemak
I've never tried to perform in elite sports on cocaine.
How many years was Ben Cousins on it while playing?
Re: Melbourne Watch 2023/24
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JanLorMill
Also I know there is addiction but why would a professional athlete continue using cocaine if it made his performances worse? He is risking his career.
What the AFL could do is anonymously outline some circumstances where this "loophole" (that isn't a loophole) has actually been exploited. I'd be surprised if it was a long list of examples.
Casual usage earlier in the week after the in game period probably happens a lot, but I'd guess the usage would then drop back sharply with only a handful of players still tucking into it once the week's started.
The amount of players dealing with a genuine dependency or addiction would be very small (again, at a guess).
Where would cocaine really impact a player? Think things like attention to detail around diet and hydration, recovery and getting enough sleep. Players are probably still getting to all the sessions and doing the minimum requirements, and mostly wouldn't notice a huge difference if usage was sporadic.
Re: Melbourne Watch 2023/24
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jeemak
Anyone who says cocaine is performance enhancing probably hasn't had a lot of experience with it or people who use it.
I've had 0.
Speed was big in my day. Never wanted it myself. I'm already hyper enough.
Re: Melbourne Watch 2023/24
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JanLorMill
How many years was Ben Cousins on it while playing?
The Ben Cousins situation was largely exaggerated until he started smashing meth. Sure there were cover ups by the WCE and AFL but a bit like a current player who's having his challenges it's when the meth kicks off that things can really spiral.
Meth also metabolises more quickly so the real danger is players leaping from cocaine onto that if they think they can get a day or two more usage in before the next test.
With cocaine a usual employment based urine test probably won't be a problem a couple of days after usage if usage was casual. If usage is regular/ weekly then the detectable period increases. For someone like Smith at Melbourne (as an example, I have no idea), he may have stopped using the Sunday, Monday or Tuesday before being detected the following Saturday, but if he had been going at it for months on a weekly basis then he would be exposed to being caught as the metabolites in the system compound and take longer to clear. And it's a chance when he was caught he wasn't impaired or enhanced by the drug in any way, and given if he thought he was a danger of being caught he'd have just used the loophole that's apparently rife, right?
Re: Melbourne Watch 2023/24
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Grantysghost
I've had 0.
Speed was big in my day. Never wanted it myself. I'm already hyper enough.
GG on the bogan dust would be a proposition, wouldn't it!
Re: Melbourne Watch 2023/24
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jeemak
GG on the bogan dust would be a proposition, wouldn't it!
Haaaaa... Lock up your children
