Always Right Match Committee Rd 19 vs Fremantle

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Originally Posted by mjp

It's actually a pretty good question.

The first step would be to work out whether he is leading the ruck (> 70% game time) or operating as a backup/support ruckman.

Leading the ruck:

- 50% of hitouts with 1x hit to advantage per quarter.
- 1x mark per half
- 1% count around 10-12
- Possessions in the 6-10 range with high effectiveness (he wouldn't have a kicking license so would be on a handball/kick over 40m rule I suspect.

Support role:

- 35% hitouts whilst in the ruck and 'even' at clearances.
- 3-4 marks for the game
- 6-10 possessions at high efficiency.
- 1% count in the 4-8 range (not as many clearances so tackles and blocks would drop).

Something like that?

The challenge with a player like Sweet is he is going to be like Jack Witts/Dawson Simpson were 6-8 years ago. He will win 70% of the ruck hitouts with 1-2 to advantage per quarter. But wouldn't be capable around the ground and hence couldn't play in the support role...

It is very hard for ruckman as they have no chance to develop outside of being played in the VFL. English is pretty unique at the moment in that he is getting 1st ruck development minutes in the AFL and the club is counting on two things:

1/. It works and he becomes a star.
2/. He becomes a star and stays at our footy club.

Ultimately most good ruckman are > sum of the parts/sum of the stats and sometimes the dominant ruckman in the game from a physical impact perspective appears to have lost the match-up based on the stats. Ultimately, it doesn't matter who wins the hit-out IF the other ruckman is simply contacting the arm (rather than the ball) and ensuring it doesn't get to the defined hit zone...if you compete hard, tackle and provide a strong contest for down the line kicks, what else do you really need to do???

Collingwood got an amazing game out of Grundy last week and it didn't make a lick of difference - they were smashed. Richmond are in a pretty awesome run of form with what (based on names alone) would be the worlds worst ruck division. It is a unique position and one that is particularly difficult to measure on stats alone...

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Would the ability to have the aerobic capacity to work and move around the ground be a required skill set if a young ruckman ala English was not able to provide a dominant role at ruck contests? Flipside would a ruckman who was dominant in the primary ruck contest be able to play if they did not have the ability to positively contribute in other facets of play?
I get the impression the club are willing to play English because whilst not yet dominant in ruck contests, he does contribute in other facets of play at a level that is greater than his shortcomings in the ruck contest itself.
Conversely, Sweet might be able to compete strongly at ruck contests, nut at present would not be aerobically ready to work around the ground, and that this would be a liability greater than his contributions at the ruck contest.

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Originally Posted by bulldogtragic

Side discussion. Genuine question. Is that the end of Roarke Smith at the dogs? If this month was his make or break time at the level, and he played one ok game in the wet, and he's now dropped. Are his papers stamped as a good VFL player?

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He hasn't hit the sockeye salmon 20 game test yet, but I can't see what he brings to the table.

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Originally Posted by bulldogtragic

Side discussion. Genuine question. Is that the end of Roarke Smith at the dogs? If this month was his make or break time at the level, and he played one ok game in the wet, and he's now dropped. Are his papers stamped as a good VFL player?

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I definitely think Roarke has shown improvement. Is it enough to save him? I don't think so. I wonder whether he's a delist with a view to redraft as a rookie if he's amenable to that?

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Originally Posted by Yankee Hotel Foxtrot

I definitely think Roarke has shown improvement. Is it enough to save him? I don't think so. I wonder whether he's a delist with a view to redraft as a rookie if he's amenable to that?

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Roarke is still a rookie.

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Originally Posted by bornadog

Roarke is still a rookie.

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D'oh.. then gonski i suspect.

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Originally Posted by Yankee Hotel Foxtrot

Would the ability to have the aerobic capacity to work and move around the ground be a required skill set if a young ruckman ala English was not able to provide a dominant role at ruck contests? Flipside would a ruckman who was dominant in the primary ruck contest be able to play if they did not have the ability to positively contribute in other facets of play?.

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I think this is the million $ question. I also think the cynical answer would be ‘whatever the attributes are of our recent 1st round draft pick, those are the ones we want to see despite other shortcomings’ - but I do think it is easier to persist with a young ruckman such as English who involve some himself in ball movement than it is a young ruckman similar to Max Gawn who once upon a time was a hit out machine who was unable to impact with ball in hand.

It is hard to develop ruckman because only one can play at a time. It always amazes me that the commentary is always ‘big blokes take longer’ rather than challenging WHY that is the case. A young mid such as Smith can easily be inserted into a rotation (in 2019 at least - it was a bit harder in 1980!) whereas a young ruckman generally speaking doesn’t get that chance. I think what the club Ian trying to do with English is pretty admirable and clearly shows a MC who have at least one eye on Achieving success for the long-term over winning right now...but exactly how much short term distress they are prepared to go with I really don’t know.

There has been a lot of talk about the lack of support given English, the lack of alternatives on the list etc...at some point we all need to acknowledge that a deliberate plan is in place and English is at the centre of it. Will it work? Who knows? Was it conceived before or after dalrymple selected him? Who knows?

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Originally Posted by The bulldog tragician

Love your knowledgeable contributions mjp, you always get me thinking differently about the game.

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Thanks - I appreciate that.

I know I can be a bit of an arse as well but I am trying hard not to be that way (quite so much anyway).

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Originally Posted by mjp

I think this is the million $ question. I also think the cynical answer would be ‘whatever the attributes are of our recent 1st round draft pick, those are the ones we want to see despite other shortcomings’ - but I do think it is easier to persist with a young ruckman such as English who involve some himself in ball movement than it is a young ruckman similar to Max Gawn who once upon a time was a hit out machine who was unable to impact with ball in hand.

It is hard to develop ruckman because only one can play at a time. It always amazes me that the commentary is always ‘big blokes take longer’ rather than challenging WHY that is the case. A young mid such as Smith can easily be inserted into a rotation (in 2019 at least - it was a bit harder in 1980!) whereas a young ruckman generally speaking doesn’t get that chance. I think what the club Ian trying to do with English is pretty admirable and clearly shows a MC who have at least one eye on Achieving success for the long-term over winning right now...but exactly how much short term distress they are prepared to go with I really don’t know.

There has been a lot of talk about the lack of support given English, the lack of alternatives on the list etc...at some point we all need to acknowledge that a deliberate plan is in place and English is at the centre of it. Will it work? Who knows? Was it conceived before or after dalrymple selected him? Who knows?

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Hypothetical. If English were unavailable to us this week. Clearly Sweet would have to come in. Would his inclusion require a major change in what we do to try and win? That is, it appears right now, we're accepting that Tim will in a best case scenario break even in the ruck, but his ability to work around the ground and in essence contribute in other facets. If Sweet came in, he would not likely be able to contribute in our current style. What would we need to do to enable his shortcomings not cost us dearly. Could we play the same style of game, knowing the opposition would likely have a free man to link up with around the ground?

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Originally Posted by Yankee Hotel Foxtrot

Hypothetical. If English were unavailable to us this week. Clearly Sweet would have to come in.

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I don’t think he would. We would just ruck Trengove and play Williams as a defensive rotator.

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Originally Posted by mjp

I don’t think he would. We would just ruck Trengove and play Williams as a defensive rotator.

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That is insightful.
And look, I'm not anti-Sweet, but that he would not get a game if English were not available speaks volumes to where he is in his development and to what he could offer our team right now.
I hope he can work on his game and present well next year to be able to bring his attributes to the table as a net positive and not an overall liability outside of his ruck work.

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Originally Posted by mjp

There has been a lot of talk about the lack of support given English, the lack of alternatives on the list etc...at some point we all need to acknowledge that a deliberate plan is in place and English is at the centre of it. Will it work? Who knows? Was it conceived before or after dalrymple selected him? Who knows?

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I'll jump in an ask if the plan is in fact deliberate.

All pre-season Trengove 'had the pads on' and the club was bullish about English impacting forward, while Naughton spent his whole pre-season in defence. This was shelved after JLT 1, and in JLT 2 English and Trengove were each given a half as sole ruck to see who took the round 1 spot.

I suspect English's growing ability to provide an aerial presence around the ground means we'll stick with this plan as it stands.

Given we went very short in defence at the start of the year (Cordy as sole KPD) the overriding concern seems to be run anyway. Our being linked to quick players indicates the club still see this as a concern.

Well perhaps the plan is now based around two people. English and Naughton.

Plans can change, there's nothing wrong with that if done for the right reasons.

This would have been the ideal game to blood Sweet against the three big Freo followers. Having played in a SAGF League Premiership last year and with a strong body it would have allowed English to play a key forward role predominantly with an occasional run on the ball. Tim has demonstrated that he has the skills to play forward. At the moment we rob ourself of a key defender in Trengrove when Tim requires a spell as the main ruck man. Our forward line hasn’t functioned for most of the year and this would have provided an opportunity to look at a different structure considering also that Schache is out injured

[QUOTE=BornInDroopSt'54;649430]Ballarat, a filthy day, freezing, rain blown horizontally on the exposed footie oval in 1969. We were Whitefriars College playing a preseason game against a catholic team, not the mighty St Pats but perhaps a boys home.
They were beating us with hard footy. I chased a ball carrier, got my arms around his front and whacked the ball also punching his nuts accidentally and he swung his elbow flushing my jaw. Next I remember constantly chasing the ball which always seemed to be down the other end to where I was.
I remember games end walking off and saying as a cry for help, "Frank, you won't believe this but I don't know where we are or what we are doing here". Then everybody seemefd to say the same word "concussion" which was comforting but a bit dismissive. I had no recall of what concussion was but anothr of our players had it and I looked at his face and thought it rude and embarrassing. He looked like he would do something stupid.
Later I played under 19s for Beverly Hills in the VAFA thinking it was a fair comp of ball players. A psycho ruckman from Nth Old Boys who was swearing angrily at his mates for not kicking it to him, came out of nowhere just after I had hanballed off and round armed punched me breaking my nose which became a spout of blood. End of playing football for me. This hippy didn't believe in violence.
AFL have done well in eliminating most psychopaths and in identifying head injuries as needing protection.
You are right that Schache was vulnerable and umps should have stopped the game with him in the contested area.
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...Y2kj0SWCUhHMvI