It's been a tough season so far in 2019 but........

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Originally Posted by Danjul

I don’t want to see more grunt or toughness.

At present everyone simply looks for a handpass. Most weeks we have 20, 30 or 40 more than the opposition and lose because of resulting turnovers.

Combine quality kicking with a sensible goal to goal line and we would enjoy significantly more wins.

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That wasn't the case vs North. We had more kicks and LESS handballs.

I am not talking about toughness being the difference. It is about defensive concentration and not allowing turnovers to become goals...on the weekend we had LESS turnovers than North and were actually MORE efficient inside fwd 50 than they were...so what gives?

Fair enough, disposal efficiency...we were down by a couple of percent - but it really was line ball...

I am all for your comments about too much of our possession not actually helping us win - that was the main thrust of what I was posting last week - but I thought our kick/handball ratio was much improved vs North, but our efforts in transition, efforts to provide an effective outlet/shut down the outlet were poor...and the efforts of our forwards to quickly empty out and get goal side were not good enough.

I am curious what you mean by a sensible goal-to-goal line...who should play???

I think the leadership is weak. There is no lead by example and has anyone ever seen Wood pull the group together after a bad quarter and rev the boys up.

Maybe I'm too old school and if a captain got up the players for a poor performance they would just tell him to hoof off.

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Originally Posted by mjp

That wasn't the case vs North. We had more kicks and LESS handballs.

I am not talking about toughness being the difference. It is about defensive concentration and not allowing turnovers to become goals...on the weekend we had LESS turnovers than North and were actually MORE efficient inside fwd 50 than they were...so what gives?

Fair enough, disposal efficiency...we were down by a couple of percent - but it really was line ball...

I am all for your comments about too much of our possession not actually helping us win - that was the main thrust of what I was posting last week - but I thought our kick/handball ratio was much improved vs North, but our efforts in transition, efforts to provide an effective outlet/shut down the outlet were poor...and the efforts of our forwards to quickly empty out and get goal side were not good enough.

I am curious what you mean by a sensible goal-to-goal line...who should play???

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we had the same number of scoring shots but got 12 behinds to 7 (similar against Geelong). One thing I noticed that seemed to impact on goal kicking accuracy was the transition into the forward line. Slow movement around the wing with handball or short kicks allowing defenders to flood back. A successful kick into the 50 metre arc often results in a shot at goal from difficult angle or on the kicker’s distance limit (short forwards leading out ).

I would like to see faster and straighter kicks into the F50, from closer to the centre square. The Bont does this well.

I would like to see a genuine tall at CHF who can kick long goals. I think Schache is our best option now. Then Naughton at FF might not get two tall defenders so often. Also, the smaller forwards can focus on gathering spills and using speed to run into better positions.

on the backline we should have Suckling kicking in with a choice of spaced targets, the ruckman and 2 genuine talls who are good overhead. Lewis Young was like that. Trengove can take a mark. . I suspect we waste Daniel at present. He could set up some smart play further up the ground.

At present our exits are slow , often leading to a contest too close to opponents goal. This invariably involves the opposition ruckmen.

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Quote Originally Posted by mjp

It takes an entire TEAM to stop a goal. It takes an entire TEAM to stop an opposition i50. In transition, if just ONE PLAYER makes a mistake, is a bit slow, is a bit 'soft' (broken tackle)...GOAL. Everyone needs to consistently and continuously play their part in order to stop the opposition.

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Originally Posted by Mantis

Quoted because it's the truth.]Our 2-way running is dreadful.. to a man our players go half rat power when transitioning from offence into defence. And when you have a backline that isn't all that good at one-on-one defending you're in big trouble.

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So true. Most teams play to their strengths but we seem to play to our weaknesses.

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Originally Posted by Danjul

we had the same number of scoring shots but got 12 behinds to 7 (similar against Geelong). One thing I noticed that seemed to impact on goal kicking accuracy was the transition into the forward line.

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I neither agree nor disagree with any of this...I just don't think our ball-movement was the problem on the weekend. We had enough of the ball - we just allowed too much of it to North. Fair enough vs Geelong we over-used but we didn't really do that against North.

I guess the question I would ask is WHY you think we were slowed down on the wing. Is it our structure (it sounds like you think yes) or the oppositions willingness to push back hard and defend in numbers (I think it is this). When I watch - and I am in Perth remember so beholden to the broadcast angle - going quicker would result in MORE turnovers rather than less because we are so often outnumbered behind the ball...

I understand what you are saying about structuring around Schache and Naughton...I just can't see Schache at CHF making a lick of difference. We will kick it to him - he wont mark it - the opposition will take it away. I guess I am just nervous about the idea of Josh playing high as any sort of marking target because he WILL be under high entry kicks (that's the life of a CHF) and I haven't seen him mark those balls going back to his time in the u18's.

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Originally Posted by mjp

or the oppositions willingness to push back hard and defend in numbers (I think it is this). .

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I thought North were very good at defending and stopping our run. Their pressure on the ball carriers was excellent, forcing us to kick short and try to hold on to the ball. We stuffed up a few times by trying to kick across the ground to try and go wide of their press, only to turn it over due to errant kicking.

We are in the midst of record low scores in the comp, so conceding 21 and 18 goals in the last 2 weeks is akin to 25+ goals. That is a massive failure of team defence, as others have already alluded to on this thread. We have so many elite ball winners who cannot/will not take responsibility for harder working opposition mids. We are not dissimilar to Melbourne in that respect, who have so many inside grunt mids who get absolutely torched on the outside and have no work ethic to run defensively - it's not a flattering comparison.

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Originally Posted by mjp

I neither agree nor disagree with any of this...I just don't think our ball-movement was the problem on the weekend. We had enough of the ball - we just allowed too much of it to North. Fair enough vs Geelong we over-used but we didn't really do that against North.

I guess the question I would ask is WHY you think we were slowed down on the wing. Is it our structure (it sounds like you think yes) or the oppositions willingness to push back hard and defend in numbers (I think it is this). When I watch - and I am in Perth remember so beholden to the broadcast angle - going quicker would result in MORE turnovers rather than less because we are so often outnumbered behind the ball...

I understand what you are saying about structuring around Schache and Naughton...I just can't see Schache at CHF making a lick of difference. We will kick it to him - he wont mark it - the opposition will take it away. I guess I am just nervous about the idea of Josh playing high as any sort of marking target because he WILL be under high entry kicks (that's the life of a CHF) and I haven't seen him mark those balls going back to his time in the u18's.

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Agree about Schache not playing centre half forward. That position is better for Naughton and gives him more room to move with Schache at full forward.

Turnovers are killing us. they kicked 8 goals from turnovers on the weekend. Daniel has had a great year but boy has he had some turnovers trying to be to cute. I have never seen so many bullet passes tried over the past few weeks and very few come off. Get back to the basics.

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Originally Posted by Bullies

Turnovers are killing us. they kicked 8 goals from turnovers on the weekend. Daniel has had a great year but boy has he had some turnovers trying to be to cute. I have never seen so many bullet passes tried over the past few weeks and very few come off. Get back to the basics.

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I hate the kicking across the ground, as they don't seem to come off.

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Originally Posted by Bullies

Turnovers are killing us. they kicked 8 goals from turnovers on the weekend. Daniel has had a great year but boy has he had some turnovers trying to be to cute. I have never seen so many bullet passes tried over the past few weeks and very few come off. Get back to the basics.

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Is it a function of not having a legitimate marking target forward of the ball?

With only one tall forward it's not hard for opposition teams to block the 'down the line' kick noting teams tend to avoid the corridor. We seem set to try and open the fat side of the ground up at every opportunity to find a leading target.
A legitimate second tall option would allow they or Naughton to meet the ball carrier on a slow transition.

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Originally Posted by Mofra

Is it a function of not having a legitimate marking target forward of the ball?

With only one tall forward it's not hard for opposition teams to block the 'down the line' kick noting teams tend to avoid the corridor. We seem set to try and open the fat side of the ground up at every opportunity to find a leading target.
A legitimate second tall option would allow they or Naughton to meet the ball carrier on a slow transition.

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Norf were really good in not allowing us to do this as much as we would have liked.

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Originally Posted by Mofra

Is it a function of not having a legitimate marking target forward of the ball?

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North made an artform out of blocking our single tall so theirs had a clean run at it
Much harder to do when there are two of them

We're the 6th highest scoring team in the competition - I'm not worried about our ability to score as such.

Our ability to defend is a real worry, but its our blatant turnovers via decision or skill errors that is killing us. When you kick the ball to the opposition and defenders are out of position, you have no chance. How often to do concede a goal when we've had a short pass cut off, a switch that doesn't come off, or a scenario where the right decision was to go conservatively down the line but we run ourselves into trouble over doing handball.

The way I look at this season, we've played pretty well for a significant portion of games, but have had a few disaster moments in games that have killed us. Add to that, the arriogant approach we've take to selection and player-positioning against the bottom sides - we really should be sitting at 6-4 (I know you can make a case for beating all 3 bottom sides, but we also pinched one v Hawthorn so I'm saying we should have 2 more wins on the balance of things).

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Originally Posted by Bullies

Turnovers are killing us. they kicked 8 goals from turnovers on the weekend. Daniel has had a great year but boy has he had some turnovers trying to be to cute. I have never seen so many bullet passes tried over the past few weeks and very few come off. Get back to the basics.

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Yeah, but to be fair it's turnovers that are killing everyone. Pretty much ALL scoring this year is coming on the back of turnover - scoring either comes from turnover, stoppage or kick-in - and both scores and scoring percentages from stoppages and kick-ins are down.

I get what you are saying I guess - but I just cant shake the feeling that as supporters we want it both ways...all the comments on here about going 'faster'...the fastest sides in the competition (most play-ons) are Melbourne and Carlton - and they are on the bottom. We rank 7th or 8th quickest...Geelong are the slowest and they are on top. Further to that, we aren't happy when the side plays 'safe' footy (like the first half vs Collingwood, generally speaking vs North) but then get upset when the players take a chance to try and open it up and a turnover is the result. I just don't think we are very fair with this - it is bloody hard to strike the right balance of being composed/getting a mark in D50/D-half then trying to hit the 45 in order to accelerate with the opposition sweating on the kick (they practice as well you know).

Admittedly, I was upset a couple of weeks ago because I thought we had the kick/handball balance skewed...again, that is hard. You work for one another and get to the contest in numbers, the reaction is going to be to handball the ball to your team-mate because first option would be preached at training every day.

Again, we have a talented group and even going back to my last post where I talk about Schache not being the CHF focal point, that is probably a dumb comment as it really does feel over the past few weeks we are all getting into 'deck-chairs on the Titanic' mode by suggesting we move player x here and player y there...I mean, a week ago the calls for Dale to be promoted were vigorous and pretty unanimous...a week later he cant play and his career is over...the truth (as always) is in the middle. Yes, he needs to play better but he also needs to be given a chance to do so. The discussion over Richards 'role', Toby's 'role' etc...does it really matter as ultimately what the group needs to do is commit to being in front/1st to the ball in the contest (which we usually are), clean with our hands (50-50 we are) and defend like crazy (20-80 we do).

There was a great stat on that 'TRENDS' podcast a couple of weeks ago about how the team that records the highest number for DEFENSIVE running wins basically every single game...and that team usually records the LOWER number for offensive running...

I have never really liked the whole 'men of mayhem' type commentary, and whilst the 'wall of Biggs' was amazing in the moment and even more remarkable in replay, watching our team around that time it really was incredible how hard we challenged the opposition defensively...defeating the GWS running machine was achieved with running, workrate and effort...I feel we have watched what Richmond, West Coast and Collingwood have done over the past couple of years and defend with structure/positioning (with a bit of help from Howe, McGovern, Shepherd, Grimes and Rance!) and tried to become 'that' sort of team...for whatever reason, it hasn't worked/resonated with our group and we leak goals...so the EFFORT needs to take the place of the structure, the forwards need to be quicker to empty out, we need to apply more pressure through the mids, the defenders need to more aggressively take away leading lanes....

It's going to be ok.