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Roberts would be an opposition's dream as a forward. He's as slow as a wet week so he wouldn't get any separation on a lead, and would not apply any defensive pressure. He can't jump either so would be useless aerially, and is equally atrocious below his knees.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjul
Even if he kicked 2 goals, his deficiencies would concede double that amount.
He has played forward at Footscray. I think it's fair to say that if he'd performed well in the role he'd be there now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjul
we will not know until we try it. And no one has done anything to be pleased with on the forward line in years. Look at Saturday , many of Geelongs 21 goals were generated up the ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankee Hotel Foxtrot
The highlight of the Dogs scoring in the last 50 games was a few bags of 4, and Schache getting 4 and Naughton getting 5 this year.
In 2015 there were 17 times our forwards kicked 4 or more goals. 13 of the games that year had more goals than yesterday.
Always preferred watching big scoring to one-percenters and defensive pressure and whatever.
I think we know exactly how Roberts would go up forward based on his skill set. Just pretending his deficiencies would magically disappear by placing him forward is not a good plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjul
As for scoring, i just prefer winning our score yesterday was precisely the same as our 2016 premiership. I cared not a jot that we didn't score more heavily once the siren sounded.
Young for Young, Lewis time has surely come, can provide a ruck chop out. Lachie will be a good player and has had a taste.
Dale for Hayes, if Bailey is at his best he is a true asset to the side.
Less likely, but I’d do it..
Williams for Wood/suckers if sore
Lipinski for Gowers
most supporters care a lot about scores. It must be bigger than the opposition total. Carlton and Geelong made a fifteen goal deficit between them. And one was the bottom team. Being occasionally competitive isn’t acceptable. And the rot goes a lot deeper than one or two players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankee Hotel Foxtrot
The simple fact is in the last 50 games you have not seen much winning. So it is time to change the mindset at the club.
That's exactly when YHF said. The point is you can do it multiple ways it doesn't have to be scoring 130 points it can be by restricting them to 50Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjul
Or in the case of GWS vs. Carlton, both!
Out:
Lachie Young
I like him and see what the coaches see in him. A composed good ball user who i aggressive and able to play on many types. I think he will be good enough, but he isn't yet.
In:
Bailey Williams
Needs to play. One of the best talents on our list imo and yet spends the entire season in the VFL or playing weird roles in the ones. Get him in and the get the ball in his hands.
Out:
Will Hayes
I like his effort, but that's it. I just don't understand what the end game with him is that we are hoping for. He has no weapons, is thoroughly mediocre in every area and is basically a worse version of Lachie Hunter as a hard running link man. I just don't know why we are investing these games into him.
In:
Patrick Lipinski
Slower than Hayes, but similiarly naturally finds the ball and is a better user. I would be looking at trying to get he and Mclean to try and work up the ground and try to replicate Hayes running ability.
Out:
Billy Gowers
I defend him all week and that's what he dishes up? I think he is more important than the player he he needs to go to the VFL and be forced to earn his spot back after indifferent at best form.
In:
Bailey Dale
Natural forward who is good in the air and attacking with his ball use. Has earnt his spot back in the side.
Out:
Fletcher Roberts
Too small to play on the real bigs and too slow to play on anyone else. His role is to do just enough to allow a teammate to come over the top. That's not working. 51 games and a premiership Medal is pretty impressive for someone of his ability.
In:
Tim English
Frees up Trengove to play on Brown. Gives us some aerial presence around the ground. If fit must come in.
Out:
Easton Wood
Can't see this happening but it needs to. Was a deadset liability yesterday, if you bring his role all the way back to the basics as a defensive stopper who just has to be safe with the ball and he still stuff it up then that's it. If this seasons form continues does he get another contract? Has been a mediocre to poor AFL player for 3 seasons now.
In:
Lewis Young
Reward for good form in the VFL. Potentially allows Cordy or Trengove or even himself to play a bit forward and help Naughton out. Backup ruck. If English doesn't get up is my inclusion for Roberts and put Cordy on Brown.
Really well thought out post. Thanks for the effort Soupa.
And I agree.
I can't see Sucking playing this week looked sore indeed. Hasn't had much luck at all.
Calves again, has had a lot of feet/leg trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by kruder
Gowers will continue to play until Schache can force him out. Linpinksi/Dale play a totally different role to him.
Dale in for Hayes who should never play AFL again( bevo is more than likely to play him again though). He can roam the flanks and help with connections and hopefully take his opportunity at goal when it comes. The Dale that kicked 4 against Port is a very gifted player indeed.
Young in for Young, he is 2 years ahead of him in development It's been absolutely ridiculous that Lachie has been played ahead of him. He must fly for his marks, we cant have another defender looking to punch the ball back into the corridor. It sounds like he has been competitive the last few weeks let's give him a month of footy like Hayes and Young have been gifted.
Williams in for Suckling if injured, is an AFL quality player been solid in the VFL and deserves another crack.
Expecting English to miss another so Roberts survives and let's be honest there is 0 chance of Wood being dropped.
think you are selling Naughton short here. He is a long term prospect and will continue to develop as a forward (he kicked another 2 on Saturday night). In one sentence you state that you want stability and players to play in their designated positions then you argue Roberts to be played as a forward (he may have been drafted as a forward but as others have stated has shown little, if anything, as a forward). We need to stick with our current forward set up (with the exception of Hayes (not sure what his role has been)) and maybe include Schache once he finds some form.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjul
Looking forward to seeing Dale get selected this week.
my comment was about the team performance, no one is selling Naughton short. In fact the comment clearly says he has been a glimmer of hope in a grossly underperforming forward line in the last few years. Grossly underperforming.Quote:
Originally Posted by whythelongface
our ability to score has steadily disappeared since 2015, and I am not convinced the problem is simply a lack of ability.
I will give a clear example from the Geelong game.
As everyone knows Hawkins has kicked over 300 goals in the last five and a half seasons. In successive weeks last year he kicked 7 goals, being approximately half of Geelong s score in that fortnight. A true power forward. On Saturday he had an average day with only 20% .
He was constantly using hand signals to his midfielders and other forwards so everyone knew what he was going to do. They coordinated brilliantly with moves that both gave him the ball and opened space for others.
That is not a part of the Dogs game that I have noticed.
Who should have played on Hawkins?Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjul
Your point being? We don't have a power forward similar to Hawkins, at the moment. However we do have one in the making, as you have stated, that being Naughton (may play a different style but will be our 'power' forward nonetheless). We just need to be patient for him to develop and be more consistent (to be honest i think he has been reasonably consistent. We are currently very reliant on Naughton in the forward line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjul
What we do need is a few more decent lieutenants that complement Naughton. We are relying on Gowers to be our 2nd tall option at the moment. Gowers in reality should be a 3rd or 4th option. Hence we need to see Schache continue to develop and be that option moving forward.
I don't believe, as you stated earlier, that Fletcher Roberts is the answer.
Responding to: Out:
Fletcher Roberts
Too small to play on the real bigs and too slow to play on anyone else. His role is to do just enough to allow a teammate to come over the top. That's not working. 51 games and a premiership Medal is pretty impressive for someone of his ability.
In the last 2 weeks the opposition full forwards have taken 4 marks each and kicked only 6 of their team’s 32 goals. Considering that one is in consideration for best full forward over the last 5 years (with over 300 goals including numerous bags of 7) that is barely an average return. I humbly suggest that something is working . what we need to find out is why did the opposition get their other 26 goals.
I am not convinced that anyone is even looking.
Hipwood might have had 4 marks but he also had 2.5 as a key forward in the wet. Hawkins is not so great that keeping him to only 4 goals is an amazing achievement to cheer about. If he looked competent last night but give up 4 goals you might have a case but he clearly did not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjul
Given most on here are suggesting the likes of Young & Wood also depart it probably suggests the defensive group are struggling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjul
Out of interest how many 1 on 1 contests were Roberts & Hawkins in on Saturday? How many were won by Tom? Understand where both are at as footballers, but given Fletch is into his 8th year on the list it's highly unlikely he will ever be able to play the role you would hope a 6'5" defender can.
I agree with a lot you say, likeQuote:
Originally Posted by whythelongface
.......We are currently very reliant on Naughton in the forward line.
But for:
......We don't have an established power forward
my response is simply
..... we always should have, because all teams should have, and that responsibility goes beyond the players .
Also, I did not state that Roberts is the answer because I do not believe that is the case. But by being much taller than the rest of the forward line it might help get the score up a bit, and any improvement is welcome. At the moment inside 50s become outside 50s if the ball goes in above 195 cm.
Or, I would also be happy to have Cordy spend time there while we wait for our development options to arrive.
who has beaten Hawkins over the last 5 years? He is a genuine match winner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis
but in response to the question, Hawkins had only 10 possessions and barely had to move because Geelong delivers so well.
That was his second worst possessions count in his last 30 games. The more I think about it the better Roberts did.
picasso’s work doesn’t look competent - it is history that counts. Roberts has given up 6 goals in 2 games. when Crozier gave up 5 in one game it didn’t generate a response here.Quote:
Originally Posted by hujsh
300 goals in 5 and a half seasons means Hawkins is great.
Yeah Hawkins is great but that doesn't mean Roberts is excused. He still failed to show any ability to top Hawkins or even significantly impact his game. It wasn't through lack of effort, it was just because as i said he is not physically big enough to play on those key talls, and considering he no longer shows any ability to intercept mark or be effective at ground level if he can't play a lockdown role effectively on the only guys as slow as he is then he shouldn't be in the side.
How many contests did we see where Roberts had a direct hand at influencing them in our favour? Very few.
I like him and I love what he was achieved with us but Roberts shouldn't be in our side and that's why i said to drop him, and I hope he doesn't get another contract because he doesn't make us better.
Cordy (who I like) played on a first gamer who kicked 3 goals. And Geelong got others against his ruck work. No comment here about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by soupaman
Roberts wasn’t there to put things in our favour. He was there to negate the best forward of the last 5 seasons who was playing in the best team in the competition at the moment. And he did a good job keeping him to 10 possessions.
His previous game was against the third best team in the competition and he gave up 2 goals.
A total of 6 goals against two of the top three teams is putting things in our favour.
But that was totally negated by the way our forwards rediscovered their talent for missing easy goals, and our handball turnovers in the middle (gave Geelong their first three goals in less than 10 minutes).
Looked up Fort's goals and the only one I found he was standing next to Roberts and Wood when to took his mark. Seemed to be against Roberts. Not sure about the other 2Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjul
Hawkins 4. Fort 3. Rohan 3. Duncan 3. ......Dogs best was 2 goalsQuote:
Originally Posted by hujsh
AFL stats gave Fort as Geelong’s 5th best. Hawkins 14th. Shows Roberts did good job.
Those stats do not say to me Roberts did well. Roberts was soundly beaten. Whether that be on the stats sheet or, more importantly, actually watching and judging his game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjul
How many 1 on 1’s did Fletcher win?Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjul
To my eye Geelong rarely used Hawkins as they didn’t need to, but when they did he won the ball.
I agree. Also Forts second goal was the centered kick where he was on Hunter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis
And besides my suggested changes are for this week. Even if Cordy and Roberts played equally well/bad last game I still think Cordy offers significantly more than Roberts in practically every area.
My assessment of Roberts is a bit like Hayes. I don't think he lacks effort, and (prior to Hayes' last week) their form hasn't been terrible, but i fail to see what they add to the side or indeed the squad that others cannot match or surpass.
Let’s turn it around.Quote:
Originally Posted by hujsh
What would Roberts have to do to have an acceptable game on Hawkins (has kicked over 500 goals and is likely to be Geelong’s best ever full forward)?
What would Cordy have to do? I’m sure he’s getting less of the ball this year, only had 6 touches against Bottom team.
What would Gowers have to do? I’m sure he is being given the wrong role each week, still our third highest goal scorer.
And how should the team be structured for that to happen?
Win a few contests. Not turnover the ball or contribute to Geelong's score outside that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjul
I like Fletch but I don't get what his value is. He isn't strong enough to take on the monsters. He isn't quick. I guess he has some defensive guile. He can kick the ball but it's more over longer distances as a strength and his kicking was off vs Geelong. I honestly would like to hear from those who want him in the side tell me what he brings to the side (honestly not being facetious).
Say a guy like Lewis Young. Clearly not the finished product and has weaknesses, but he also has some strengths. He can read the ball when on and take intercept marks. He is also athletic.
In that contest, Fort grabbed Hunter and threw him aside.Quote:
Originally Posted by soupaman
Can someone tell me where in the rule book it says you can do that?
The part where it says if it makes the Geelong crowd laugh it's legalQuote:
Originally Posted by bornadog
In Bevo's Brief | Members Message (Rd9) he says we are short and it is not where we want to be. With the injury to Tim it hasn't helped. We need to address this come trade and draft time.
Lew Young must come in and maybe even Schache
Just about rightQuote:
Originally Posted by hujsh
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7Dv2jBU8AA4YLW.jpg
Didn't sound like Tim was going to be available this week either.Quote:
Originally Posted by bornadog
Lewis Young or even Sweet should play if English isn't fit.
too vague. Roberts had 9 possessions and Hawkins had 10 (averaging about 15 this year) . Everyone expected Hawkins to get goals. I expected 1 for every 3 the rest of the Geelong team got. Because that’s what he does.Quote:
Originally Posted by hujsh
I get all of this. I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis
But as long as we keep pointing the finger at the 'bottom' 5-6 players on our list as the reason we lost, we are going to be miserable and frustrated. 'cos no matter where we our in our development cycle, our 'bottom' players will occasionally get matched up against better opponents and they will LOSE. Or they will fumble at a crucial time. Or...you get my meaning.
15 players in our side had less than 10 kicks on the weekend. Included in that list are Macrae, Dunkley, Libba, Bont, Wood, Suckling and Crozier. They are - or SHOULD be - amongst our BEST PLAYERS.
Geelong had 13 players who had less than 10 kicks. NOT in that group were Danger, Ablett, Stewart, Kelly, Selwood and Duncan.
This is clearly not apples for apples, but you will find it is our BETTER players who wont kick...and the Cats best players who DO. Hawkins was among those with < 10 kicks (he had 8)...but let's excuse him as half of them were goals!
Whatever you think of Roberts - whatever that is - he is NOT THE PROBLEM. Is holding Hawkins to four a great effort? Of course not. But Hawkins kicked dead straight as well...but he competed OK and played his role. Wood having his butt handed too him by Rohan early in the game was not OK though...but nowhere NEAR the issue created by Dunks and Jackson continually going NOWHERE with their possessions.
We simply MUST start kicking the footy. We have to do it. Go back and watch the 2016 prelim when the handball club was in full swing. Bont, Boyd (M), Macrae, Picken, JJ, Daniel, Dahl, Bont, Biggs all with > kicks than handballs - actually Macrae was 11/14 but let's not let the truth get in the way of a good story.
KICK THE BALL. I feel that the mythology of the handball club has exceeded the reality of it...the 'handball club' used to KICK THE BALL...well, a helluva lot more than they do now in any case. And don't tell me they did it because of our strong forward targets - Stringer was playing like a busted, Cordy was doing next to nothing, Dickson was playing well but hardly a compelling tall target.
KICK THE BALL.
The problem isn't Roberts. It isn't Hayes. It isn't Young. It isn't English missing and Trengove out of position or anything else. It is that our BEST PLAYERS aren't damaging 'cos they wont kick the footy.