Eddie McGuire and Kevin Sheedy in war of words over Scott Pendlebury

[bornadog]

I for one would have been bitterly disappointed if David Smorgon threatened to set up a tent embassy at GWS' home ground

That is not what I meant.

Our club is just pushed around by the AFL and we seem not to say a thing. Losing two young potential guns in two years just stinks. But its also other things like, allowing the AFL to negotiate our stadium deal, pushed around re the Darwin deal and then allowing other clubs to get in on the deal, allowing the Collingwoods, Essendons etc to grow bigger and bigger through more exposure, free to air TV, blockbusters etc and we just sit there and say nothing. (or so it seems). All that happens is the kids see them more on TV and then they follow them.

Eddie may have the might behind the Colligwood Football Club, but what I see is a passionate man that sticks up for his club. As I said earlier, even North speak up. They knocked back one of the most lucrative deals of all time to NOT go to the GOld Coast, but whether you agree or not, they stuck to their guns and are still in Melbourne.

Yes, we are getting $10 million plus as a pay off, but this is a short term solution as the bigger clubs are growing and make no mistake, they are growing because the AFL want them to grow and all at the expense of the smaller clubs who are currently there to make up the numbers.

We have a grown our memebership base from 12,000 in the 1950's to a piddling 30,000 members yet Melbourne's population has grown from 1 million to 4 million.

I want to see the club stick up for their rights as a club that has been in existence for over 120 years and make their voice heard.

[LostDoggy]

Would not have made a difference

All the more reason to stand up, wouldn't you think?

If there will be no negative consequences, at least we get to show our members and supporters that we're fighting for our existence both on and off the field, not just getting pushed around meekly.

You can behave like a strong club even when you are a small club. Small and strong is not an oxymoron -- it's an attitude of professionalism and confidence in one's own identity and right to exist and in justice. We need to be clear about what we stand for and what we WON'T allow to happen to us. We can also demand to be compensated fairly for injustices or flagrant abuses of the rules. We can point out, calmly but firmly, that Tom Scully is not worth two of Callan Ward and that the compensation formula is deeply flawed and needs to be rectified retrospectively, just as Geelong and Melbourne got on the front foot early and worked towards a satisfactory outcome for their football club. We were undercompensated for both Ward and Harbrow while other clubs were overcompensated (in some cases massively so). Why did other clubs get favours while we got bent over twice?

For too long we've equated being small with being pushovers, just as for too long other clubs (and the AFL) have equated being big with the right to be bullies.

[KT31]

Would not have made a difference

May have, we will never know.

[AndrewP6]

I call it 1-0 in Sheeds' favour. The line about Phil is gold. Eddie, on the other hand, simply reinforces my view of him as an overbearing, pompous buffoon. Sheeds is probably reading that and having a good long chuckle.

[mjp]

Eddie is fighting back using the info that everyone in the footy world is overlooking.

1/.GC and GWS have HEAPS of good kids. Heaps and heaps of them.
2/.They are all going to come out of contract at the same time.
3/.Free agency - in some form or another - is going to be in place.

As a Melbourne based club, we should be planning raids on these two clubs over the next few years - most of their players are Victorian born and will be pretty happy to come home - if the deal is right. This is one reason we absolutely could no pay over the odds for Ward - we are going to need a war-chest (salary cap space) at the end of both 2012 (GC kids out of contract) and 2013 (GWS kids out of contract).

[Remi Moses]

Even if it's only rhetoric I'd like to hear that when their apples fall out of the tree we'll be there
To pick em' up

[LostDoggy]

Eddie is fighting back using the info that everyone in the footy world is overlooking.

1/.GC and GWS have HEAPS of good kids. Heaps and heaps of them.
2/.They are all going to come out of contract at the same time.
3/.Free agency - in some form or another - is going to be in place.

As a Melbourne based club, we should be planning raids on these two clubs over the next few years - most of their players are Victorian born and will be pretty happy to come home - if the deal is right. This is one reason we absolutely could no pay over the odds for Ward - we are going to need a war-chest (salary cap space) at the end of both 2012 (GC kids out of contract) and 2013 (GWS kids out of contract).

This is all well and good -- do you think that our administration will be either proactive or ballsy enough to attempt this? The boldest moves we've made the last few years have been to pick up unwanted 'stars' like Bazza and Aker and recycling fringe players. Being strategic enough to work a few years in advance to ensure a large enough war chest that allows us to go after out-of-contract up and coming players?; I love the boldness of the suggestion (and I'm sure a few clubs are working towards this), but I just don't see it happening under our current management.

[Mofra]

This is all well and good -- do you think that our administration will be either proactive or ballsy enough to attempt this? The boldest moves we've made the last few years have been to pick up unwanted 'stars' like Bazza and Aker and recycling fringe players. Being strategic enough to work a few years in advance to ensure a large enough war chest that allows us to go after out-of-contract up and coming players?; I love the boldness of the suggestion (and I'm sure a few clubs are working towards this), but I just don't see it happening under our current management.

Bazza & Aker were fairly ballsy moves though compared to most clubs - which ballsy moves that don't reek of paying overs should we be trying to emulate?

I'm not a fan of us following the Demons doen the road of paying $700k for a bloke and then earmark him to play in a position that he has never excelled at, although clubs like Collingwood have done well trading picks to the start-ups to gain mature agers that can step in and perform straight away.

[LostDoggy]

Bazza & Aker were fairly ballsy moves though compared to most clubs - which ballsy moves that don't reek of paying overs should we be trying to emulate?

I'm not a fan of us following the Demons doen the road of paying $700k for a bloke and then earmark him to play in a position that he has never excelled at, although clubs like Collingwood have done well trading picks to the start-ups to gain mature agers that can step in and perform straight away.

Never mentioned the Demons -- I totally agree with you that it was a ridiculous 'statement' from them that will be a big waste of money.

Yes, Aker and Bazz were ballsy from a 'taking a chance' perspective, but didn't really require a whole lot of foresight -- they were reactive moves after circumstances fell the way they did, and we did well taking the opportunities when they presented themselves, but a. they didn't cost much, and b. we had no competition for them.

I'm specifically describing mjp's suggestion as a ballsy move -- we would require a lot of planning to do this, and there will be a lot of competition for GWS and GC's out of contract players. We have never shown a great ability to either plan ahead from a list management perspective, contract management-wise (to create the war chest mjp is talking about), or compete hard trade-wise for desired targets (the GWS mini-draft pick was an example -- we barely put up a whimper there even though anything there would have been worth more than anything we would pick up with Callan's compensation pick next year). I would love to be proven wrong on this, but our track record (on drafting, contract negotiating and trading) here is as uninspiring as it gets (Bazz, Aker and Hudson aside).

I mean, what war chest will be left over once we give 3 year contracts to the likes of Mulligan? I would argue that this, in its own way, is as bad as anything the Demons did in trade week this year.

[the banker]

This is all well and good -- do you think that our administration will be either proactive or ballsy enough to attempt this? The boldest moves we've made the last few years have been to pick up unwanted 'stars' like Bazza and Aker and recycling fringe players. Being strategic enough to work a few years in advance to ensure a large enough war chest that allows us to go after out-of-contract up and coming players?; I love the boldness of the suggestion (and I'm sure a few clubs are working towards this), but I just don't see it happening under our current management.

The current Management have shown great boldness in the decision on Rocket and the appointment of Macca. Something that seems in the early stages to have reviatalised our outlook. Why don't we think the Club can handle player recruitment with a similar dynamic? I do not have an insiders opinion on the people involved, but the negativity of some posters irks me somewhat. One would say that Bazza and Aker were both standout successes even given Aker's final year. Both played great games, brought profile to the Club and became supporter's favourites. Sure some of the fringe recruitment has been problematical, but many Clubs suffer from this.

After the three years of relative success 07,08,09 and following our difficult year last year I think the Management shown courage and good decision making in the changes they have made to the coaching panel. Lets hope this spreads to recruitment over the next couple of tricky years.

[Mofra]

I'm specifically describing mjp's suggestion as a ballsy move -- we would require a lot of planning to do this, and there will be a lot of competition for GWS and GC's out of contract players. We have never shown a great ability to either plan ahead from a list management perspective, contract management-wise (to create the war chest mjp is talking about), or compete hard trade-wise for desired targets (the GWS mini-draft pick was an example -- we barely put up a whimper there even though anything there would have been worth more than anything we would pick up with Callan's compensation pick next year). I would love to be proven wrong on this, but our track record (on drafting, contract negotiating and trading) here is as uninspiring as it gets (Bazz, Aker and Hudson aside).

Our drafting track record - woeful for first rounders under the Clayton years, but I think Dalrymple's more statistical approach is better than average based on the limited opportunities he's had thus far.

I'm not ready to shut the door on pulling off something interesting, but given I have more faith in our drafting under Dalrymple than I do of our trading/contract management under Fantasia - happy to chase an out of contract GCS/GWS player as there will be obvious opportunities available, but aside from that I want us to develop our own.

[LostDoggy]

The current Management have shown great boldness in the decision on Rocket and the appointment of Macca. Something that seems in the early stages to have reviatalised our outlook. Why don't we think the Club can handle player recruitment with a similar dynamic? I do not have an insiders opinion on the people involved, but the negativity of some posters irks me somewhat. One would say that Bazza and Aker were both standout successes even given Aker's final year. Both played great games, brought profile to the Club and became supporter's favourites. Sure some of the fringe recruitment has been problematical, but many Clubs suffer from this.

After the three years of relative success 07,08,09 and following our difficult year last year I think the Management shown courage and good decision making in the changes they have made to the coaching panel. Lets hope this spreads to recruitment over the next couple of tricky years.

Changing a coach is a bold move? This is something half the clubs do every year. I've also acknowledged the absolute success of both Aker and Bazza (see my previous post) and I won't even put the proviso of Aker's final year as a dampener -- that was always going to happen and I accept it as the cost of doing business. Still a brilliant piece of recruitment, but as I said in my posts: reactive. Just as changing a coach is also a reactive move. Macca may well be a brilliant coach but we didn't have any competition for his services.

What mjp is talking about is actually a strategic, proactive, multi-year play. To do what he's suggesting, we would have to be able to have strong list management foresight and planning, be able to balance recruitment with contract management (to open up space for the war chest), scout for the GWS/GC players we wanted most, and also be able to fight off strong and relentless competition for them.

These are things we've not been particularly good at for a while now -- GVG has posted for a long time on the bad planning and foresight in turning over our players over the last 5 years (leading to our unbalanced playing list), plenty of posters have pointed out Fantasia's (very) poor contract management, and our performance in the last two trade weeks, where we spent most of our time haggling over Josh Hill, have been underwhelming to say the least, and we've certainly not shown any ability to actually compete for talent (every one of our trades and coaching appointments have faced little to no competition, and when we've had to compete we've generally come out on the losing side).

Which of these points do you disagree with? Would you agree that these are the elements that would be required to pull off mjp's idea? And would you also finally agree that proving able to change coaches and turning older unwanted players into valuable contributors are fantastic things but not what we're talking about here?

--

ps. I would also challenge the idea that my posts are negative -- I have posted profusely and positively on our successes in 07,08 and 09, and on various individual players at various times (as recently as yesterday on Dale Morris, I believe). I try to be realistic in my assessment of situations, but I certainly don't wear the rose-coloured glasses some seem intent on forcing on every poster. Support isn't blind hope.

[LostDoggy]

Our drafting track record - woeful for first rounders under the Clayton years, but I think Dalrymple's more statistical approach is better than average based on the limited opportunities he's had thus far.

I'm not ready to shut the door on pulling off something interesting, but given I have more faith in our drafting under Dalrymple than I do of our trading/contract management under Fantasia - happy to chase an out of contract GCS/GWS player as there will be obvious opportunities available, but aside from that I want us to develop our own.

Agree with all of that -- which is a shame considering that mjp's idea has serious merit and will be certainly pursued by bolder clubs.

[GVGjr]

ps. I would also challenge the idea that my posts are negative -- I have posted profusely and positively on our successes in 07,08 and 09, and on various individual players at various times (as recently as yesterday on Dale Morris, I believe). I try to be realistic in my assessment of situations, but I certainly don't wear the rose-coloured glasses some seem intent on forcing on every poster. Support isn't blind hope.

You aren't a negative poster in fact you go to great detail to explain your position and are certainly not prone to one line dismissive responses.
Having a differing view to that of the club is more than OK particularly when people go to the effort to explain why.

[Remi Moses]

Eddie is fighting back using the info that everyone in the footy world is overlooking.

1/.GC and GWS have HEAPS of good kids. Heaps and heaps of them.
2/.They are all going to come out of contract at the same time.
3/.Free agency - in some form or another - is going to be in place.

As a Melbourne based club, we should be planning raids on these two clubs over the next few years - most of their players are Victorian born and will be pretty happy to come home - if the deal is right. This is one reason we absolutely could no pay over the odds for Ward - we are going to need a war-chest (salary cap space) at the end of both 2012 (GC kids out of contract) and 2013 (GWS kids out of contract).

Exactly right. When the apples start falling out of Greater Western Tumbleweed and Gold Coast we have to ensure we start hunting