Hamling a Dog

[bulldogtragic]

BT, is it just a matter of him being down the pecking order and missing out because we have preference for team defence and small defenders?

Yes and no. The player we saw last year probably is playing right now though. I've heard some talk about his speed, but he doesn't seem to use it or take the game on like others are this year. Talia really struggled with Bevo's system, neh couldn't understand anything at all, so maybe he's struggling with this year's adaptation/evolution. I think the last two years have shown if you play the system and to your strengthes you get a game, even if there are 10 other inside mids playing. I'm more than anything trying to understand how he's won best first year playe and looked solid, to this year treading water at Footscray while he's being overtaken. I'm not suggesting I want him cut, but I'm struggling with his arrested development and if we need to cut 4 or 5 there's going to be hard calls like perhaps Hamilton or Hamling for cutting. More than anything I'm trying to understand where he's at and why.

[Remi Moses]

Not for delisting for me . We need to bat deep, and injuries are a given .
He'll

[Bulldog4life]

But we are coming into round 18, with finals likely for both teams. From best first year player 2015 to treading water for nearly a season has me stumped. As I ponder my list of candidates for delisting, he's for the first time made it into my seriously consider category. Which is staggering because he was probably the most likely first picked tall defender (after Morris) and is now firmly behind Adams, Morris & Roberts and arguably behind Cordy and lesser extent Collins. I wonder if he's in our plans if he doesn't turn his funk around?

Maybe the Club should turn him into a forward player full time. Give him a good run in this role.

[Mofra]

Zaine Cordy's improvement and Marcus Adams hitting his straps quickly have really put Hamling below a few in the pecking order.
I'm all for KPD depth and want to retain him but he is realistically behind quite a few, especially noting Dad had 25 touches in his last VFL game and Zaine was apparently supurb on Sunday.

[LostDoggy]

It would be great if he could provide depth at either end until he maybe forces his way into the side.

[stefoid]

Develop him as a forward.

[josie]

I really hope we do not delist him. I think he is a good mark and has reasonable footy smarts. When he was playing with confidence last year I thought he was quite good. This year he is being knocked off ball much easier (and at VFL level), and yes he is lightly framed, however my guess is it is largely to do with confidence.

He is quite agile and reasonably good at ground level, so I'm wondering if he could rotate b/w wing & forward a be great backline backup too? Not sure what his tank is like, maybe that needs to be worked on.

I think of some of Geelong's great backmen of the last 10 or so years e.g. Scarlett and they were not that big in the frame.

For those of you who have played footy.....Does being a good backmen have as much to do with being canny enough to have good position etc. so you are not knocked off the ball easily, as it does with having a large frame? (Morris a case in point).

[bulldogtragic]

Bump.

Whenever Joel's name gets mentioned threads get sidetracked about Joel and his trade. So this is me saying, read the last few pages and remember how things really where, not what we've romanced.

I've spent 20 minutes going through VFL reports from 2016 and it's not great reading for those who remember Joel dominating everything. He simply wasn't and a fair few posters above (me included) were scratching our heads about why Joel was going backwards. He was even playing as a forward, even when there was no real need, other than a lack of effective footy at VFL level.

So here we are, July 2016, and there's no way Hamling is getting a multi year deal. He's doing very little while Morris, Cordy, Roberts, Adams & Collins (temporarily) looked to the main tall defenders. We simply couldn't sign him at the time with low output such as he had. What we know for a fact is that around this time Freo identified and and his best mate, Shane Kersten, were playing VFL footy and might get tempted back to WA and play with each other. They seemingly agreed which is fine. But then there's the late season call up and Joel plays every game to October 1, 2016. An outcome against all odds in July 2016. But by then the contracts and moreso the plans would've been in place with Freo & Kersten.

As GVGjr points out a few times in the last few pages of this thread, Hamling had a particular outlook about his footy which may or may not have stunted his development. It's clear that it's no longer an impediment. Can I leave this discussion with a parallel point? If you've ever broken up with someone, there's the temptation to romanticise the time with the other person or how the relationship ended and rush back in. An unwise move. Which is why one should step back and look at everything at the time, how it was, why it was, and have correct context:

- Joel was playing some really poor VFL footy as a defender, then poorly as a forward, by July 2016.
- We couldn't responsibly offer a contract about now (July 2016), Freo (in desperation) did. And used a hostage in Kersten to keep it together.
- Hamling gets on a Cinderella run against all odds. But it's done.
- The apparent issues about how Joel saw footy have obviously passed.
- We got the best trade possible, and over the past 3 years with Freo is
--- Outs: Hamling, Pick 40
--- Ins: Crozier, Pick 35>26 Lipinski, 2018 4th rounder, 2019 3rd rounder (via points trade with Freo, into North, for Saints 3rd)

I guess you'll see it whatever way you want, but Joel could've almost been cut for nothing. After about 9 weeks, he went into pick 35, which we upgraded into pick 26, Lipinski. That's a good return from 9 weeks I'd argue. If he failed at Freo, we'd be laughing. He's kicked on, so good recruiting to them all. We got Crozier back, voted most courageous in his first year with us and is arguably our most consistent medium defender for 18 months. I'm not sure why this ground keeps going over.

[G-Mo77]

Regardless of how poor he was early in 2016 he finished as our best KPD. We got pick 35 for him? Yeah we turned it into this and then moved it for that and that's great but our initial return for him was deplorable.

[1eyedog]

Came for nothing, was a vital cog of the entire finals including the Premiership, left and we got 35 for him. I've moved on.

[jeemak]

What would we have paid for Hamling if the shoe was on the other foot? I reckon there would be a lot of pissed off people if we gave up more than pick 35 for him, given he'd only had solid football behind him for a few months irrespective of four of these solid games being finals.

Plus, you're only able to retrieve what the market is willing to pay, and when you've got only one buyer in the market, possibly two the market is likely yield you a smaller return for what you're selling. We could have held firm, but that wouldn't have helped as we'd have lost him for nothing via the preseason draft. With all of this considered, what would we have expected pay for him if the roles were reversed?

[Remi Moses]

Funny seeing people wanting him delisted !

[G-Mo77]

What would we have paid for Hamling if the shoe was on the other foot? I reckon there would be a lot of pissed off people if we gave up more than pick 35 for him, given he'd only had solid football behind him for a few months irrespective of four of these solid games being finals.

Plus, you're only able to retrieve what the market is willing to pay, and when you've got only one buyer in the market, possibly two the market is likely yield you a smaller return for what you're selling. We could have held firm, but that wouldn't have helped as we'd have lost him for nothing via the preseason draft. With all of this considered, what would we have expected pay for him if the roles were reversed?

His value at that time was at it's peak and considering his output now I would have been happy to give one inside top 20. That being said when you're over a barrell...... I think we could have done better. I think we could have made Freo work a little harder to get a higher pick instead of taking what they had.

I've moved on from it, at the time I was happy to let him go and show good faith for what he did for us. Still nothing wrong with thinking about what ifs even when the mob shout you down, which is the norm in here when you go against the grain.

[jeemak]

His value at that time was at it's peak and considering his output now I would have been happy to give one inside top 20. That being said when you're over a barrell...... I think we could have done better. I think we could have made Freo work a little harder to get a higher pick instead of taking what they had.

I've moved on from it, at the time I was happy to let him go and show good faith for what he did for us. Still nothing wrong with thinking about what ifs even when the mob shout you down, which is the norm in here when you go against the grain.

If your second paragraph's last section is directed towards me then I'm sorry you feel you're being shouted down. I find turning trades on their heads is a good way to look at the arguments differently, because there's always an imbalance between what people are willing to pay versus what they believe they should receive.

You are correct in saying his value was at its peak as far as his career was concerned, and that may have been why we were able to secure a second round selection for him. The trade of late picks evened out, and we possibly had our eye on pick 23 which was given up for Bradley Hill for Fremantle to get him across from Hawthorn - and to me at the time that would have been overs for Hamling.

West Coast traded late picks for Mitchell and Vardy, and I'm not sure they even dealt with us over Hamling.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that sometimes there's just no more value to unlock within a deal, especially when you're only able to negotiate with fixed tangible negotiating chips like draft picks, future picks, players and salary. If your point is you're looking at things retrospectively and believe we got the raw end (which I think you are, because you would give up a pick in the top twenty for him based on his current output which I probably wouldn't do) then fine. I just think sometimes we get carried away when looking back thinking more could and should have been done to get a better deal for our players and or not overpay for players we bring in.

[hujsh]

If your second paragraph's last section is directed towards me then I'm sorry you feel you're being shouted down. I find turning trades on their heads is a good way to look at the arguments differently, because there's always an imbalance between what people are willing to pay versus what they believe they should receive.

You are correct in saying his value was at its peak as far as his career was concerned, and that may have been why we were able to secure a second round selection for him. The trade of late picks evened out, and we possibly had our eye on pick 23 which was given up for Bradley Hill for Fremantle to get him across from Hawthorn - and to me at the time that would have been overs for Hamling.

West Coast traded late picks for Mitchell and Vardy, and I'm not sure they even dealt with us over Hamling.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that sometimes there's just no more value to unlock within a deal, especially when you're only able to negotiate with fixed tangible negotiating chips like draft picks, future picks, players and salary. If your point is you're looking at things retrospectively and believe we got the raw end (which I think you are, because you would give up a pick in the top twenty for him based on his current output which I probably wouldn't do) then fine. I just think sometimes we get carried away when looking back thinking more could and should have been done to get a better deal for our players and or not overpay for players we bring in.

I'd almost suggest he's worth more now as and established, clearly excellent defender than as a guy who had a great month in a premiership team but might go back to struggling in the VFL for all we knew. Was what happened to Fletch.