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  1. #1
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    Hawthorn List Manager - Hypothetical

    I'd like to hear some view on what the Hawks should do over the next 2 years to rebuild the club?

    So lets assume that the board and Clarko have appointed you as the List Manager and have made these assumptions and want you to map out a 2 or 3 year plan to get the club competitive again.

    - We are on a rebuild but we can't just bottom out. ie no fire sale.
    - We need to get back into the draft in 2017 and 2018
    - Only a handful of players can't be traded. Roughead Hodge, Rioli, Burton, O'Meara, Mitchell and Frawley are off limits.
    - We will be a player in free agency but we will need some additional cap space.
    - While a number of players have contracts we are willing to help facilitate a trade if they don't want to go through a rebuild
    phase with us. It may mean that we have to pay some of their salaries to help another club trade with us.

    List the approach you would take?


    To assist with your decision making here is their 2017 playing list

    Senior List
    Grant Birchall
    Kaiden Brand
    Luke Breust
    Shaun Burgoyne
    Ryan Burton
    Jonathon Ceglar
    Taylor Duryea
    James Frawley
    Josh Gibson
    Jack Gunston
    Blake Hardwick
    Billy Hartung
    Kurt Heatherley
    Ricky Henderson
    Luke Hodge
    Daniel Howe
    Will Langford
    Mitchell Lewis
    Kieran Lovell
    Ben McEvoy
    Teia Miles
    Tom Mitchell
    Harry Morrison
    Tim O’Brien
    Jaeger O’Meara
    Jonathan O’Rourke
    Marc Pittonet
    Paul Puopolo
    Cyril Rioli
    Jarryd Roughead
    Ryan Schoenmakers
    Liam Shiels
    James Sicily
    Isaac Smith
    Kade Stewart
    Ben Stratton
    Ty Vickery
    Brendan Whitecross
    Dallas Willsmore

    Rookies (4)
    James Cousins
    Jack Fitzpatrick
    Oliver Hanrahan
    Luke Surman

    Category B rookies (2)
    Conor Glass
    Conor Nash
    Great. I need one more thing. Soda. Yeah, I don't want my guys paying for soda. I want you to stock my machine for three years. I'm serious.

    "Lets roll and hey...lets do it to them before they do it to us"

  2. #2
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    Re: Hawthorn List Manager - Hypothetical

    I expect BT already has a 12 page document put together on just this topic
    Our 1954 premiership players are our heroes, and it has to be said that Charlie was their hero.

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  4. #3
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    Re: Hawthorn List Manager - Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by comrade View Post
    I expect BT already has a 12 page document put together on just this topic
    I'm counting on it I thought you might be working some magic as well
    Great. I need one more thing. Soda. Yeah, I don't want my guys paying for soda. I want you to stock my machine for three years. I'm serious.

    "Lets roll and hey...lets do it to them before they do it to us"

  5. #4
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    Re: Hawthorn List Manager - Hypothetical

    BT is probably typing it up now.
    AFL premiers 2016
    VFL premiers 2016



    Well-meaning little therapists
    Goose-stepping twelve-stepping Tetotalitarianists
    The tipsy, the reeling and the drop down pissed
    We got no time for that stuff here
    Zero crime and no fear
    We've bred all our kittens white
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    And at night we're on our knees
    As quiet as a mouse
    Since the word got out
    From the North down to the South
    For no-one's left in doubt
    There's no fear about
    If we all hold hands and very quietly shout
    Hallelujah
    God is in the house...

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  7. #5
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    Re: Hawthorn List Manager - Hypothetical

    Begs the question why the went and signed Mitchell and Vickery. Omeara I get, but the other 2?

  8. #6
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    Re: Hawthorn List Manager - Hypothetical

    They need to get back into the draft. Not saying their 2016/17 off season trades were fails, but clearly their current side doesn't have another premiership assault left in it and waiting until 2019 for a full complement of picks will see them a non-factor for some time

    Trade Frawley to the Bulldogs
    If you kicked five goals and Tom Boyd kicked five goals, Tom Boyd kicked more goals than you.

    Formerly gogriff

  9. #7
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    Re: Hawthorn List Manager - Hypothetical

    Stratton could be handy for us.
    HEIGHT IS OVERRATED: CALEB DANIEL > TOM BOYD

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    Re: Hawthorn List Manager - Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by FrediKanoute View Post
    Begs the question why the went and signed Mitchell and Vickery. Omeara I get, but the other 2?
    Mitchell is just a plodder isn't he? It's hard to describe what Vickery is. Pretty well off money wise is one description.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dry Rot View Post
    Stratton could be handy for us.
    A decent man on man defender is something we are going to need when Morris retires.
    AFL premiers 2016
    VFL premiers 2016



    Well-meaning little therapists
    Goose-stepping twelve-stepping Tetotalitarianists
    The tipsy, the reeling and the drop down pissed
    We got no time for that stuff here
    Zero crime and no fear
    We've bred all our kittens white
    So you can see them in the night
    And at night we're on our knees
    As quiet as a mouse
    Since the word got out
    From the North down to the South
    For no-one's left in doubt
    There's no fear about
    If we all hold hands and very quietly shout
    Hallelujah
    God is in the house...

  11. #9
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    Re: Hawthorn List Manager - Hypothetical

    That list is in a world of hurt.

    Only Burton looks likely of the younger players.

    They have an abundance of premiership players, but most were made to look better with the match winners around them.

    With Sam Mitchell and Jordan Lewis gone, they will lose Hodge, Burgoyne and Gibson possibly by the end of this year. Roughead has been throw to the wolves as captain, when he should be given the opportunity to build confidence in his body. He may also be gone with 2 years or less.

    Puopolo and Isaac Smith are being exposed as ordinary players when they are needed to show the way. Cyril is way off.

    Ben McEvoy looks done and Birchall has struggled before his current injury. Ricky Henderson was unwanted by everyone else and Vickery is just not a quality player.

    Schoenmakers, Duryea, Langford and Hartung have had abundant chances and would be fringe at best with other clubs.

    They actually need O'Meara to be Gary Ablett and Chris Judd combined just to be competitive and they have sold out of this year's draft to get him.

    They really need to get back in the draft, but I don't see anyone on the list who could provide the necessary trade.

    Perhaps there is a locked in free agent coming their way at the end of the year.

    Their drafting has been poor over the past few years. The Bulldogs have certainly selected better with later picks.

    Having looked at that and the options available, I have just handed my resignation to Clarko.
    Life is to be Enjoyed not Endured

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  13. #10
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    Re: Hawthorn List Manager - Hypothetical

    Would like to add Vickery should be in the off limits , they just signed him, no one else will want him he is stuck on their list.
    A Liam jones signing.
    Like a post before , they have a lot of mediocre players made good by the stars around them . Although for some reason Sicily I think has something that I wouldn't throw out or trade.
    Bring back the biff

  14. #11
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    Re: Hawthorn List Manager - Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by boydogs View Post
    They need to get back into the draft. Not saying their 2016/17 off season trades were fails, but clearly their current side doesn't have another premiership assault left in it and waiting until 2019 for a full complement of picks will see them a non-factor for some time

    Trade Frawley to the Bulldogs
    Much overrated footballer. Decision making is atrocious. Frawley is, in my opinion quite simply a spud. The fact that Melbourne received pick 3 as compensation for him is only due to the ridiculous contract he was offered at Hawthorn and in no way a reflection of his ability.
    "Well, I could be wrong, but I believe, uh, diversity is an old, old wooden ship that was used during the Civil War era."

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  16. #12
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    Re: Hawthorn List Manager - Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by ledge View Post
    Would like to add Vickery should be in the off limits , they just signed him, no one else will want him he is stuck on their list.
    A Liam jones signing.
    Like a post before , they have a lot of mediocre players made good by the stars around them . Although for some reason Sicily I think has something that I wouldn't throw out or trade.
    I'm not sold on Sicily.
    He seems purely a marking player and undersized for that. Would probably be sensational in a suburban league.
    Doesn't seem prepared to do enough of the hard stuff. A poor man's Jeremy Howe.
    Life is to be Enjoyed not Endured

  17. #13
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    Re: Hawthorn List Manager - Hypothetical

    As it happens, this is my PhD topic. What a coincidence.

    First thing. Salary cap. They move on Hodge, Burgoyne & possibly Gibson. Now they have a good amount of space.

    Second thing. Free agency. Do they use it to bring players in, or use it to get high draft picks? That is, if they bring in talent commensurate to what they lose they get no compo. They have Duryea & Schoenmakers are eligible free agents to lose, and get compo. If I'm Hawthorn, I allow them to sit in the marketplace and get a feel for what the offers will be. I can see some clubs having a fair bit of interest in both. If the offers were in the range of end of second rounders or at their high third round (or better) then I'd let them go, bank the compo and not look at bring in free agents to potentially water down or eliminate compo.

    So, I've now got 4 picks around 35-40 now. Without trading. But we need to trade up the order.

    First, can we identify an expansion club or academy club that need to bank draft points. Can we package two of the above picks up to get into the 20's? I hope so for Hawthorn. So let's say they can.

    Say decent draft picks 25, 40 & 41 - having lost Schoenmakers (replaced by O'Brien) and Duryea (replaced by Hartung).

    So now it's time to make a hard call, we are moving on a blue chipper. Stratton would have suitors, but I don't see them gutting their defence with Gibson gone. Isaac Smith would hold interest, but if they're losing silky foot skills, Smith going would compound that problem. Realistically, we need to identify players that are great in a strong side and that without the guns around them, look decidedly average. So looking to the forward line, Gunston jumps off the page. Puopolo & Bruest still impact, Rioli won't go anywhere, so we are back to Gunston.

    Gunston signed on for 4 years last year at a mere $650,000 a year, apparently rebuffing $1,000,000 offers. But he didn't kick a goal in the first 3 rounds with the best defenders. If they're in for a lean time with Vickery not making things better up forward, then he's the one. For opposition clubs, he could be a massive game changer. Imagine Gunston in the Adelaide forwardline, or GCS forwardline or even the Dogs forwardline. If Gunston gets to a team where he's third banana, then those teams would be crazy not to go hard at him because he's a proven gun performer in that role/status. So he's my blue chip bait.

    So what's he worth, especially in multiple clubs are after him? At minimum a first rounder and an upgrade in the second round. So using rough numbers:

    Picks 15, 25, 33 & 42 - for losing Gunston, Schoenmakers, Duryea, Hodge, Gibson, Burgoyne

    If they can engineer decent free agency compo, trading up in draft points trades and good trade outcomes with Gunston, then that's trying to make the best of a bad situation of their own making. The benefit is also freeing up close to $1,800,000+ in salaries, plus CBA rises. That could force a re-think of taking free agency compo this year, or they could move to accelerate some contracts and front load others and also bank down the difference in minimum salary cap payments. Then next season they could take the best two or three free agents with a salary cap war chest.

    The kicker is whether they can play the longer game, or whether they feel the pressure of Collingwood, Richmond & Carlton to not bottom out for financial reasons and shove in sub standard players and stuff their list and not allow them to come back well. But Clarkson took a list in far worse state over a decade ago and made some very good moves and created a dynasty. He wasn't afraid to move on players and trade out some good players. I suspect what he might want to do will be different to what the board wants of the clubs performance. But they have options, but which ones they take will be interesting to whether they plod along or dip for a while to rise sharply in a few years. It's going to be interesting to see whether the footy department wins or whether the board wins this year as to what they do.
    Matty Boyd Career Highlights:

    Club Captain: 2011-2013 - Night Premiership Side: 2010 - Premiership side: 2016 - Charles Sutton Medal: 2009, 2011, 2012 - All Australian team: 2009, 2011, 2016 - Best Team Player: 2016 - Coaches Award: 2015 - Match Committee Award: 2007 - International Rules Series: 2008, 2010 - AFL Life Member - Western Bulldogs Life Member - Record Games Played by a Rookie - 8th Most Games Played for Footscray/Western Bulldogs - 66th Most Goals Kicked for Footscray Western Bulldogs - Most Finals Won by any Footscray/Western Bulldogs Player - Brownlow Votes: 108

    Bob Murphy Career Highlights:

    Club Captain: 2015-2017 - Night Premiership Side: 2010 - All Australian team: 2011 & 2015 as Captain - AFLPA Best Captain 2015 - Rising Star Nominee & Most Promising player: 2001 - Best Team Player: 2003 - Runner Up, Charles Sutton Medal: 2011 & 2015 - International Rules Series: 2002, 2003 - AFL Life Member - Western Bulldogs Life Member - 6th Most Games Played for Footscray/Western Bulldogs - 27th Most Goals Kicked for Footscray/Western Bulldogs - Club Captain of Western Bulldogs in Premiership Year: 2016 - Brownlow Votes: 51

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  19. #14
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    Re: Hawthorn List Manager - Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by FrediKanoute View Post
    Begs the question why the went and signed Mitchell and Vickery. Omeara I get, but the other 2?
    Mitchell has been their only decent pick up, although they paid a lot.
    Vickery is "just ok" but you'd want more than that for a $500k FA signing, JOM I really don't see it. He reminds me of Cooney post-knee problems.

    Their biggest problem was selling the farm for two mids who aren't quick (and I include losing Hill for a 2nd rounder in this). Sit on Isaac Smith and where do they get their run from? Hartung is fringe and there is nobody else really.
    Western Bulldogs: 2016 Premiers

  20. #15
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    Re: Hawthorn List Manager - Hypothetical

    holy shit BT that was about 100x better than what I would have said.

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